Microsoft Could Turn Every PC Into an Xbox (theverge.com)

For the past few years, Microsoft has been trying to mold Xbox One system's user interface and functionalities to resemble that of Windows 8 and Windows 10's Modern UI. But the company has also hinted that we will be seeing a closer integration in the coming months. It is expected to unveil some of that at E3 tradeshow next week. Long-time Microsoft watcher Tom Warren reports for The Verge: Microsoft is currently working on a secret project internally, codenamed Helix. Kotaku originally reported on the Project Helix name, and the work is designed to more closely combine Xbox and Windows 10. Some of that work has started, but more of it is due later this year and next year with future upgrades to Windows 10. Microsoft wants to enable features like streaming PC games to the Xbox One, but sources familiar with the company's plans also tell us there are greater ambitions to make Xbox One games playable on a PC without needing a console for streaming. Part of this could involve bringing the full Xbox One UI and system directly into desktop versions of Windows 10. The latest Xbox One dashboards are built on top of Windows 10, so most of the work involved would be customizing the interface towards keyboard and mouse. Bringing the Xbox One UI over to Windows 10 machines would effectively turn every PC into an Xbox One, especially if they're also capable of running the latest console games.

Comments

No.

[HornWumpus]

Just No.

Don't make PCs and PC games worse, make the consoles better.

Console ports already generally suck. Leave them in the console controller ghetto.

Re:No.

[mrchaotica]

"Turn your PC into an Xbox" is nothing more than coded language for "sabotage your perfectly good general-purpose computer by infecting it with even more DRM than it already has." The thinking at Microsoft clearly must be "well, the consumers are resisting our attempts to force them to use the Windows Store, so maybe we can force them to the Xbox Live store instead?"

Re:No.

[wicka_wicka]

I disagree - don't make consoles better, make them worse. Stop trying to achieve parity with PCs. It's never going to happen. Instead, accept that the inherent design limitations of consoles requires that they be underpowered vs PCs.

Re:No.

[PincushionMan]

I think you've nailed it. The Xbox Live store (especially since it has the Gold tier membership), has to be hugely more profitable than the generic Windows Store. I suspect a consolidation is brewing. Maybe WinStore accounts are going to be migrated to WindowsLive accounts?

Re:No.

[Wraithlyn]

Shit, accidentally clicked "Redundant" instead of "Insightful". Replying to undo my mod.

Re:No.

[Darinbob]

The only way to achieve parity with PC is to remove all the crap the console makers do to lock you into their games or monetize you. Paid subscriptions in order to get updates to your games, exclusive access to one platform only, makes use of a nonsensical interface no one wants (kinect), connectivity to the back office so they can serve you ads and track you, etc. And that's before you make the games less dumb.

Re:No.

[exomondo]

Instead, accept that the inherent design limitations of consoles requires that they be underpowered vs PCs.

Everybody already accepts that they are less powerful, but that doesnt matter because they are far more efficient. Using a lower level API and targeting a consistent platform means you don't have to worry that your customers have different combinations of CPU features, cache, speed, cores and different GPU architectures, features, memory amount, memory speed, bus speed and system RAM amount/speed, output screen resolution as well as different OS versions, drivers and running applications. This is how console games can be so much more efficient at exploiting system hardware compared to PCs, because all the target devices are the same, that is an advantage and you don't have overpowered and wasteful PC hardware that you then have to tweak settings to make things work properly.

Re:No.

[jezwel]

I don't understand why these were even designed as separate things?! Your Microsoft account should display XBox related items when using your XBox, PC related items when using your PC, and Mobile related items when using your Windows Phone. If a product is available on multiple platforms, it should presented on those platforms when you have bought it - regardless of what device you bought it on. The interface should be tailored to the capability of the device you are using - touch, gamepad, mouse + keyboard, voice, gestures. Why is this so difficult to define, design, and implement ?

Re:No.

[Dutch Gun]

That's because there's everything from fun little indie titles to massive AAA games on it rather than the craptastic "apps" in the Windows store that some shyster pooped out in five minutes with a suspiciously similar name to some other large name brand that they're trying to rip off. Not looking forward to seeing the crappiness of the Windows Store infect the Xbox Live store.

Other interesting news is the notion that MS may be releasing incremental hardware updates, including one with a more powerful GPU (presumably so it can work with VR). What's that going to do to the Xbox game ecosystem, if games run better on one version of the hardware than another? I doubt you'll immediately start seeing games that *only* run on the newer hardware, but the prospect may be concerning to some. I mean, the cheaper price and long-term stability of the platform is really the only thing the console has going for it in the first place. It's a shame MS decided to sell such a watered down "next-gen" machine in the first place, betting on the silly Kinect instead of better gaming hardware.

Re:No.

[donaldm]

"Turn your PC into an Xbox" is nothing more than coded language for "sabotage your perfectly good general-purpose computer by infecting it with even more DRM than it already has." The thinking at Microsoft clearly must be "well, the consumers are resisting our attempts to force them to use the Windows Store, so maybe we can force them to the Xbox Live store instead?"

To get an idea of the type of information Windows 10 will send to Microsoft just select your Security settings and peruse them. By default all the settings are turned on unless you explicitly turn them off and even if you turn them off there are other settings that can only be changed in the Registry and good luck with that.

Sure there are third party tools that can help you lock down your Windows 10 machine but now you have the problem of trusting them. Don't just take my word on this do a simple search with the words "Windows 10" and "Privacy", you will get about 18 million hits in Google (Note: I quoted "Windows 10").

For those people that are using a different version of MS Windows (aka. Win7, Win8.1 and back) well except for Windows 8.1 all other versions of Windows are out of mainstream support. You can find this information here. If you are a gamer on Widows OS's like it or not you will have to upgrade especially if you want to play Microsoft-centric games that support DirectX 12.

I am well aware that Google effectively "phones home" but at least you can turn this off or just don't use their browser. With Windows 10 the "phone home" capability is turned on by default and while it is possible to lock down the OS you or your third party software will most likely miss something and turning off an operating system rather defeats the purpose of the operating system.

Windows 10 is a combination of Win7 and Win8.1 (it has tiles on the start menu). It is pretty (ie. subjective) and it appears to work quite well as I would expect it too. If you like that and you don't mind your computer computing usage being sent to the cloud (ie. Microsoft) then be my guest.

Re:No.

[donaldm]

On that train of thought, the forced Windows 10 upgrades may be due in part to quickly boost the size of their Windows Store customer base to critical mass and leverage their vendors with high customer numbers.

You are spot on with that comment.

Re:No.

[Mashiki]

Except that's not true today. Both current versions of the big consoles on the market are simply low-powered PC's with a basic x86 OS to do the workload. Neither are they more efficient, if they were when you're porting from x86 to x86 the developer would be able to use that "extra horse power" to optimize the game even further. Doesn't happen. Many of those ports are poorly optimized even on the very highest tier of hardware out there. See the Batman: Arkham Knight fiasco for instance.

Re:No.

[exomondo]

Except that's not true today. Both current versions of the big consoles on the market are simply low-powered PC's with a basic x86 OS to do the workload.

Did you not read? The OS does not suffer the overhead of desktop OSes, they are specialized, stripped down OSes. The hardware is indeed very similar to PC hardware but as I already said the difference with consoles is you know every detail and can optimize for them rather than having to do a high-level generic solution that is not at all optimized for the target platform.

Neither are they more efficient, if they were when you're porting from x86 to x86 the developer would be able to use that "extra horse power" to optimize the game even further.

They are more efficiently utilized because they are a consistent platform to target rather than an inconsistent, fragmented one like the PC.

Re:No.

[HornWumpus]

They are slightly more efficient. But they are still obsolete shit hardware. 30fps is good for a console, many games render at 720 or worse.

Re:No.

[HornWumpus]

Fanbois 'consider' lots of things that just aren't true.

Er...this is a secret?

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

Er...this is a secret? Last time I checked, there was an "XBOX" icon on EVERY Windows 10 installation I'd ever seen...

Re:Er...this is a secret?

[Nemyst]

The Xbox app is just for basic functionality (achievements, friends, recording, etc.) and for streaming games from an XB1, it can't actually play XB1 games.

Re:Er...this is a secret?

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

>> it can't actually play XB1 games.

You forgot "yet." Like I said, the fact that Microsoft wants to compete with Steam with the full Xbox catalog on every Windows 10 desktop is no secret. Otherwise they would have kept the "Microsoft Games" thing going, licensed Steam bloatware apps or gone in a different direction. Instead, everyone already sees the Xbox brand and expects that someday soon Xbox games will be there too.

Re:Er...this is a secret?

[RockDoctor]

Never having seen a Windows 10 installation, I'll have to take your word for it.

At least

[The-Ixian]

you will only have to buy 1 copy of a game. That is pretty appealing.

I bought Diablo 4 on my girlfriend's console at one point but she got sick of me playing it all the time so I had to buy the PC version to play on my computer (which sucks BTW, the console version is much easier to use).

Re:At least

[Yvan256]

You're probably making the mistake of trying to use a gamepad for a computer game which was made to use with a keyboard and mouse.

Re:At least

[CronoCloud]

I bought Diablo 4

There is no Diablo 4, you mean Diablo 3, most likely the Ultimate Evil Edition.

Re:At least

[rtb61]

When it comes to that style of extended gaming, the ones with the greatest usability are those that can operate mainly just by mouse inputs, one handed, allowing for more relaxed reclined gaming and snack and drink consumption. So definitely PC way over game console or more accurately mouse (and occasional keyboard) over game controller.

Re:At least

[CronoCloud]

the ones with the greatest usability are those that can operate mainly just by mouse inputs, one handed, allowing for more relaxed reclined gaming and snack and drink consumption.

Which is NOT Diablo 3 on PC. (Which I also own, even though I prefer the PS4 version)

Re:At least

[The-Ixian]

you are right... not sure why I hit 4 instead of 3... my mistake.

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[geoskd]

I run linux on both my desktop and my laptop. I run pfsense on my gateway machine. How in the name of the eight worlds of Sol is Microsoft going to convert them all to XBoxes?

I'm guessing it has something to do with Microsofts recent flirting with open source software. Maybe the next revision of GWX is going to get truly ambitious...

App store lock in jail time / ban's for modding =

[Joe_Dragon]

App store lock in jail time / ban's for modding = no way.

And there idea of modding that can get banned is putting your own sata hdd in. At lest the x box 360 used to that way.

Re:Linux here I come

[geoskd]

If they do this I will never use a microsoft OS ever again.

Yes you will. If you really meant that, you'd have left windows long ago. Microsoft knows you're just going to whimper like a dog and roll over.

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[puddingebola]

This will be illegal in the new order.

Sounds good to me!

[gameboyhippo]

I only want one game for XBox One. This will allow me to have my cake and eat it too. Now if Sony can make all Blu-ray players a PS4...

Re:The Console Is Dead So Use A Desktop!

[Anne Thwacks]

Slow march to obscurity? Hell, it may have been terminally sick, but they stabbed it in the back with Windows 10.

Helix is presumably a contraction of "Hell-X (box)". My family''s experience of the UI is that it is unusable - the kids have abandoned it for games on Android tablets.

About Time

[CrashNBrn]

It will be interesting to see if those of us predicting the demise of dedicated consoles within the next 1-2 console iterations are correct or not.
If so, then Sony, Nintendo, and MS will switch focus to peripherals (controllers, VR, etc) and become platforms that run on any capable computing device. Perhaps with something like a Ubi-key for their locked down DRM.

Re:About Time

[Guybrush_T]

Not necessarily, since game consoles tend to be good hardware/price compromise and games are optimized for those platforms since there are a lot of them.

The gamers (with occasional desktop needs) will buy the Xbox ; the desktopers (with occasional gaming) will buy a laptop/desktop. The extreme gamers will build their own crazy-GPU configuration.

Re:About Time

[CrashNBrn]

Mhmm, and all the consoles are AMD processors and GPU - e.g. A Gaming PC with custom controllers.

Re:About Time

[mrchaotica]

No. They're gaming PCs with locked-down hardware and a fuck-ton of DRM, and that's what Microsoft apparently wants to do to normal PCs too.

Re:About Time

[Opportunist]

And then the extreme gamer notices that nobody bothers catering to his 8900x5050 resolution triple-screen setup because everyone only codes for the console standard spec and doesn't bother to adjust anything because, hey, why bother, it runs on PCs anyway.

Re:About Time

[jafiwam]

Sony put PS2 or a PS3 (can't remember which) capability in their Blu-Ray players. So, if you want, you can pay a too large monthly fee, hook up a controller, and play games streamed to it from the internet. They are trying all the same stuff everybody else is; music, streaming games, movies, books, etc.

Re:About Time

[CronoCloud]

Sony put PS2 or a PS3 (can't remember which) capability in their Blu-Ray players.

It's actually neither...and both. It is called Playstation Now and it's based on Gaikai technology. (with maybe some OnLive bits now too) It is in some TV's as well.

So, if you want, you can pay a too large monthly fee, hook up a controller, and play games streamed to it from the internet.

It's cheaper if you subscribe for longer periods. One month is 19.99
3 months is currently on sale for 29.99 (regularly 43.99) That said, I don't use it...because if I wanted to play a PS2 or PS3 game (which I do rarely) it's cheaper to get the disc and put it into my backwards compatible CECHE model PS3.

Re:About Time

[hairyfeet]

Uhhh you can buy PCs now that will play most games at 720p if not better for less than a PS4, and certainly less than they'll be asking for a PS4 Neo. Since PCs hit the wall on both MHz and cores a few years back parts have gotten cheaper because there really is no "killer app" to move the more expensive parts.

Just type in "$400 gaming PC" into YouTube and you can find dozens of builds to pick from, both Intel and AMD, they even have parts picker links so you don't even have to know which parts to get, just click the link. Now that you can get both Windows 10 Insider Edition (with extra spying and Bing!) and SteamOS for free the cost of the OS doesn't have to enter into it, just grab the parts and game on.

That of course doesn't even figure in the insane wealth of crazy powerful used systems you can get now for dirt cheap, you can grab a C2Q or Phenom II X4 system on many CL for under $70, throw in a $100 graphics card and voila! A system that will play most mainstream games well for less than the cost of a used PS4.

There has really never been a better time to be a PC gamer, hardware is cheap, great games are so plentiful and the PC platform has so much competition you can have huge game collections for very little money, and everything is so simple a kid can throw together a system now. You can literally build a PC with only 4 parts, case with PSU, APU with heatsink, SSD...that's it, working system ready for install. Its sooo easy, sooo cheap, and HDMI means its plug and play...man I wish it would have been that easy when I first start building systems.

Re: About Time

[Lije Baley]

The PS3 is better blu-ray player than most blu-ray players, so you are better off going the other way around.

Re:About Time

[donaldm]

It is always funny but most of these builds always seem to forget the price of the operating system (assuming Microsoft) and the monitor (like it or not this is essential). If you're a serious gamer you also need a decent keyboard and mouse which aren't exactly cheap, sure you can get cheap ones but they are normally rubbish.

Since most builds don't talk about DVD or BluRay readers I would assume the so called gamer will be downloading games digitally, which is fine. The problem you do have is that you need fairly large capacity storage unless you are only going to be playing a few games. Basically, a 1GB disk is just not large enough and as for an SSD, well you just blew your budget.

In all fairness, any serious PC gamer will opt for a PC build that is over US$1000 (i5, i7 or high-end AMD) and that is not including the monitor. There is nothing wrong with opting for a cheaper PC gaming solution but please don't think that that will automatically put you on parity with a high-end gaming rig.

As far as a PS4 goes I actually use my monitor to switch between it and my SkyLake i7 with 16GB DDR4 RAM machine. Is mine high end? No! It is what could be called fairly high end but there are PC's that are considerably more powerful, it all depends on what you want to use a PC for and how much you wish to spend.

Re:About Time

[Cederic]

..and responds by declining to pay full price for those game, waiting until they're old and on sale if buying them at all.

Meanwhile Steam, GoG and other platforms offer PC only games that take advantage of proper monitors, alternate input devices and the access to a market with a population large enough to support multiple specialised gaming niches.

Shit, I've spent 23 hours this week playing Warlock 2. Not available on consoles, excellent fun, looks good at 2560x1440.

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[kheldan]

I'm sure Microsofts wet-dream is to find a way to make all other operating systems illegal to create or operate, either by law or de-facto by no computer being created that allows a non-Microsoft OS to run. We're almost there now, by the way.

Quite an unsurprising response to Steam/Linux

[Guybrush_T]

That just a natural response to steam/linux. I'm even surprised it took so long for them to enable any windows PC to run XBOX games since the XBOX is a PC running windows.

Re:Quite an unsurprising response to Steam/Linux

[chispito]

That just a natural response to steam/linux. I'm even surprised it took so long for them to enable any windows PC to run XBOX games since the XBOX is a PC running windows.

I don't think Steam on Linux requires responding to right now. It's still less than 1% of all Steam users.

Source: http://store.steampowered.com/...

Re:Quite an unsurprising response to Steam/Linux

[Vyse of Arcadia]

Well, the Xbox One is a PC running Windows, and the original Xbox was also a PC running Windows, but the Xbox 360 was a different beast. It had a three core PowerPC chip at its heart and ran a custom non-Windows-derived (IIRC) OS.

Re:Quite an unsurprising response to Steam/Linux

[erapert]

Steam + Linux user here: you guys should come on in, the water's fine. And W10 seems to be annoying a lot of folks...

Re:Quite an unsurprising response to Steam/Linux

[somenickname]

I imagine it's also a response to the Steamlink. I don't know how popular they are yet but, they are excellent devices. They work well enough that I just racked my gaming machine and put a Steamlink in my living room and another one on a desk with a monitor/keyboard/mouse.

Who wants a console when you can just tuck a beefy gaming machine in an out of the way spot and buy some cheap Steamlinks to play your games in the most appropriate spot.

Re:Quite an unsurprising response to Steam/Linux

[UnknownSoldier]

... for now. :-/

It seems like Microsoft is doing its best to drown customers a little more each year. The shenanigans of forced DirectX updates is part of that process.

Re:Quite an unsurprising response to Steam/Linux

[UnknownSoldier]

I hear ya! Valve + Steambox is helping to fix the major issues with Linux Gaming.

Re:Quite an unsurprising response to Steam/Linux

[dyslexicbunny]

Meh. It's not worth the concern of figuring out what in my library works on Linux and what doesn't. And I have every setup fine on my Win7 box with no updates.

I feel like an easy plug would be to get PewDiePie and other streamers using SteamOS and Linux (as silly as I think the whole streaming culture is). Get a big name to release a gotta have with full Linux support. Heck, have the streamers to some Linux indie gaming plugs (I don't know what's all . That just might be something that will get younger folks into using Linux via Steam and really kick developers into releasing more games for Linux and manufacturers providing actual driver support.

Because I'd be quite peeved to make the switch and find a less than meaningful percentage of games don't work. I'm willing to understand that some older things might not work but it would be super awesome if SteamOS has an easy Windows emulator to fix that (maybe it does).

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[Nemyst]

... Dual-boot?

ugh

[bobmajdakjr]

with the rumors of apple wanting to make OSX into iOS i was hoping microsoft would go the other direction... make all xboxes into pcs. the surface is fucking amazing having a real os in a tablet to get actual shit done.

Re:ugh

[Opportunist]

the surface is fucking amazing having a real os in a tablet to get actual shit done.

It sure beats having a tablet OS in a real PC and getting nothing done, as with Win10 now.

Re:ugh

[macs4all]

with the rumors of apple wanting to make OSX into iOS i was hoping microsoft would go the other direction... make all xboxes into pcs. the surface is fucking amazing having a real os in a tablet to get actual shit done.

Apple is WAY far away from making OS X in iOS.

Re:ugh

[Andreas Mayer]

with the rumors of apple wanting to make OSX into iOS

Apple is doing no such thing.

OS X and iOS share many libraries, but the UI is very different and that's deliberate.

Re: ugh

[bobmajdakjr]

Zzz tl;Dr.

Re:Linux here I come

[wicka_wicka]

I think you misunderstood the concept the article is describing.

They're doing an excellent job of turning every PC

[AntronArgaiv]

I know, troll.

But this whole Win7 -> Win10 upgrade thing has caused me to lose any residual trust I had for Microsoft.

Re:They're doing an excellent job of turning every

[AntronArgaiv]

I know, troll.

But this whole Win7 -> Win10 upgrade thing has caused me to lose any residual trust I had for Microsoft.

---> into a Linux box

One Red Ring of Death

[mandark1967]

to rule them all...

Dammit Clippy! You only had 1 job!

Some problems with that idea

[The MAZZTer]

1. That would eat away at hardware cosole sales. MS won't go for that.

2. The whole point of consoles is that you can develop for a specific set of hardware. Though not impossible, and it would be great news for devs, I find it difficult to believe MS has solved all the problems relating to developinig for the wide array of PC hardware by making the software think it's running on a specific set of hardware, and performing fine. I am sure some games do low-level GPU stuff, how would that even work with a different GPU? This could possibly be "solved" by only allowing SPECIFIC games that are developed under NEW criteria that would be PC-friendly... but by that point why not develop for PC and release on Steam?

3. MS may try to block systems that aren't fast enough but some will get through. Related to #2, unless they were coded from the beginning with cross-platform capability in mind, many games simply were not made to handle systems that are too slow or too fast (thugh like the above, software running too fast is a problem that can be tackled).

4. Cheating on PC games is a big problem, but because consoles are closed, it is much less of a problem there. This move would dramatically increase the instances of hacking in online Xbox One games that end up on PC.

Re:Some problems with that idea

[vux984]

1. That would eat away at hardware cosole sales. MS won't go for that.

I *think* Microsoft consoles are sold at a loss, for the first couple years anyway and they make it back on xbox live and game sales -- they probably don't really care about lost sales of actual consoles... that's just the platform for their profit centers not an important profit center unto itself.

2. The whole point of consoles is that you can develop for a specific set of hardware

Console dev's still would do just that. This doesn't change that.

3. MS may try to block systems that aren't fast enough but some will get through.

Probably. But so what? The "default" reference platform will still be the actual physical xbox. If your PC doesn't measure up, that's on you.

many games simply were not made to handle systems that are too slow or too fast (thugh like the above, software running too fast is a problem that can be tackled).

Its been a while since this really mattered for most games. And its a challenge that other systems have tackled Wii-ware for example, did a truly brilliant job of it. The timing on some of the emulators is a bit dodgy ... but playing the NES and SNES games on Wii U ... i coasted through levels on pure childhood -honed muscle memory and the timing was perfect.

4. Cheating on PC games is a big problem, but because consoles are closed, it is much less of a problem there. This move would dramatically increase the instances of hacking in online Xbox One games that end up on PC.

The xbox would probably run in a sandbox... maybe a lightweight hyper-visor like separation. MS would definitely do its best to shield the xbox "machine" from the host OS. But yeah... it would probably make hacking more of a problem than it currently is. Then again.. lot of online xbox one games are already trying cross-platforminess with PC so that door is already open. And an xbox VM running the xbox title, instead of a "PC port" is probably going to be more secure.

For me, I'm not interested. I don't want an xbox live *subscription*. I don't want upcoming games that are currently being ported to PC to disappear from steam etc because they think I'll just run xbox on my PC. I won't. So I'm going to lose access to some titles.

Basically for non-xbox using pc gamers this could be a shitshow for pc gaming if manages to disrupt proper PC game development. (e.g. if enough PC gamers buy into it.)

But I can also see the appeal for xbox users -- being able to play their xbox games on their pcs and laptops; etc that will appeal to them. And it makes good sense for MS to cater to it.

Re:Some problems with that idea

[Woldscum]

Think Steam client. Now think XBox/Windows store client. Now charge everyone on a Windows PC $60 a year for XBox live. You now just hit a large group that would have never purchased a console. Microsoft makes very little money on the XBox hardware. It will be almost pure profit with very little downside.

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[Yvan256]

Great Scott, you're right! They did omit the "Windows" qualifier in the headline!

Are you a detective? /Stewie

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[Yvan256]

And then, moments before that happens, Apple buys Microsoft and shuts them down.

FOREVER!

Great More Windows Bloat

[Crashmarik]

More junk on my system to support features I don't need or want.

Tried and failed miserably.

[fishscene]

Microsoft already tried to turn the PC into a console (At least with the Interface) with Halo 2 for PC. It failed SO hard Microsoft completely abandoned pursuing it further, then blamed PC users for the game sales and terrible interface. ...now they are trying again? Just bring back clippy already!

Re:I'm a PC!

[NotDrWho]

Don't worry. This is MS we're talking about. Though the idea itself could give them a huge advantage over Sony and Nintendo, you can bet that their implementation of it will be such a pain in the ass to setup and use that any advantage will be wasted. MS ain't exactly Apple when it comes to simplicity or ease-of-use. Just try navigating the already ridiculously over-cluttered Xbox UI sometime, trying to figure out how to do even the simplest task.

The Goal,

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft looks at Google, Apple, and Valve and sees the piles of money they're generating from royalties. They're receiving 10-25% of revenues from selling software on these platforms at the cost of what? Maintaining their distribution software, paying for bandwidth, and a couple of servers to store the data.

Microsoft believes this is their best future. Hardware performance is not gaining at the rate it used to. Many programs are being pushed to the web (Microsoft's other focus) which requires less computing power. This means consumers and businesses are not forced to upgrade their machines and OS's as often. The extremely profitable OS upgrading cycle is dead to them.

This is why they might allow Windows 10 to run in Xbox mode. Much like Valve they see no gains to be made developing hardware. It's a loss leader. Selling SDK's isn't what it used to be either. Distribution is where the money is. But making Windows 10 machines run in xbox they increase their user base and extremely lower their expenses. While revenues would sharply decline, profits would increase greatly. And profits is what matters.

This is yet another reason why Windows 10 is/was "Free" and another reason why "There won't be another Windows after 10." MS under the current CEO is going all in with Distribution, Cloud, and Data/Ads. Everything else (OS, Tools, SDKs, Etc) are just delivery mechanisms for their new profit model.

Re:The Goal,

[im_thatoneguy]

Maintaining their distribution software, paying for bandwidth, and a couple of servers to store the data.

Also building the .NET/WinRT Framework, DirectX and ya know.. Windows.

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[neilo_1701D]

... How in the name of the eight worlds of Sol ...

Back when I was knee-high to a grasshopper, there were nine worlds of Sol. You kids don't know how lucky you are by not confusing the solar system to Disneyland and only having to remember eight names!

Of course, science fiction has taken a hit: Planet IX sounds a whole lot less ominous than Planet X.

The Linux community is destroying itself.

[Anonymous Coward]

If Microsoft really wants to destroy Linux, all it has to do at this point is sit back and watch.

The Linux community is doing a superb job of self-destructing, all on its own. It's causing more harm than Microsoft, SCO, or any other external party could have done.

Systemd has torn apart the Linux community. It has caused huge problems for many Linux users, as evidenced by the many mailing list posts and bug reports describing serious problems with it. A recent example is how a systemd change broke tools like screen and tmux. Obviously, many Linux users just cannot put up with nonsense like that, especially those running servers and other important systems. Yet moving to another distro isn't an option for them, because all of the major Linux distros now use systemd! The only Linux distros that don't force systemd on the users are niche distros like Slackware and Gentoo, but they typically aren't suitable replacements for a general-purpose distro like Debian.

Systemd is just the tip of the iceberg. GNOME 3 was a serious regression from GNOME 2, alienating a huge number of users. Unity isn't much better. Firefox has gotten progressively worse, forcing most of its users over to Chrome. X has stagnated, while Wayland has gone nowhere. PulseAudio has been problematic for so many users.

We've seen a lot of Linux users, many of whom had used Linux for decades, give up on it lately. Those wanting a better workstation environment have moved to OS X. Those wanting a better server environment have moved to FreeBSD. Linux has entered the same dismal feedback loop that Firefox has entered: the software got worse, which drove away the best users, which allowed the software to get even worse, which drove away mediocre users, which allowed the software to get even worse than that, which drove away the remaining users.

It wasn't outside forces that have started the demise of Linux. It was actors within the community who have been responsible.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[F.Ultra]

If anything it's the vocal anti systemd trolls that are causing this self-destruct that you are talking about.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[Anonymous Coward]

Android and ChromeOS are very bad examples to use.

They're absolutely nothing like traditional Linux distros. Yes, modified versions of the Linux kernel are used, but that's where the similarities end.

The only times we've seen Linux become truly successful is when pretty much all of the traditional software running above it is thrown away.

That means X is discarded. That means systemd is discarded. That means most of the GNU utilities are discarded.

Then all of that is replaced with custom or proprietary software.

At that point, the Linux kernel isn't much more than a convenient hardware abstraction layer. It's used mainly because it's free and people are familiar with it, rather than any technological advantage it would give over other kernels.

We can't really attribute Android's success to Linux. Most Android users wouldn't have any clue that the Linux kernel is even present on their devices, it's buried under so many layers of abstraction.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[CronoCloud]

A recent example is how a systemd change broke tools like screen and tmux.

It wasn't a systemd change but a change in how Debian configured systemd.

GNOME 3 was a serious regression from GNOME 2, alienating a huge number of users. Unity isn't much better.

Sure, some people don't like Gnome 3. I personally don't. But I don't have to use it and I have plenty of other options. Besides on those "servers and important systems" you refer to, they aren't running Gnome.

Firefox has gotten progressively worse, forcing most of its users over to Chrome.

PulseAudio has been problematic for so many users.

Did you just time travel from 2006 or something? I've been running Pulseaudio for years without major issues.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[macs4all]

> The Linux community is doing a superb job of self-destructing,

And yet Linux based personal computing devices are outselling every other OS by a factor of 3 or 4 times.

Oh stop it.

Android and Chrome are about as similar to desktop Linux as DOS is to Windows NT.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[F.Ultra]

So you really had to do all that to come up with:

nano /etc/network/interfaces
sudo systemctl daemon-reload

Looks like the real problem is that the Raspbian guides are not updated with that crucial last step

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[exomondo]

I'm currently using Fedora 24 Beta. No issues or hacking so far. I'm using Firefox on Gnome 3 on Wayland, listening music over Pulse-audio, systemd under the hood.

I think you should re-check your preposterous statements.

We're just seeing the exact same criticisms we have seen of Linux in the past getting rehashed. The old "linux is crap because my sound/3d/printer/whatever does work" meanwhile most people are using it just fine.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[donaldm]

Ah! The Troll is strong with this one.

Re: The Linux community is destroying itself.

[Voogru]

Your honor, I OBJECT!

  And why is that, Mr. Reed?

Because it's devastating to my case!

Overruled.

Re: The Linux community is destroying itself.

[F.Ultra]

No that is not what is happening, daemon-reload simply instructs systemd that it should look at all the unit files and see if one of them have changed. Since Raspbian have chosen to use the systemd-dhcp client this client have a dependency on /etc/network/interfaces and the daemon-reload simpy makes systemd understand that the dhcp client is no longer needed and thus shuts it down.

This would have all been described to the parent AC if he had run "systemctl status networking" after he edited /etc/network/interfaces. Instead he assumed that this would all be extremely complex and started to go over the unit files and whatever.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[jandersen]

Really? Is this the same sort of demise that happened to the mainframe back in the day, and later to UNIX? I think you are painting an overly black picture here. To most people - certainly in the commercial sector - whether you use systemd or not is a minor issue, as long as the system boots up and works as intended. And this being Linux, I would have thought it possible to simply change the configuration to not use systemd - if it matters enough to get people worked up in a tiff, then they will probably be competent enough to work out how.

As for GNOME, Firefox and PulseAudio - are there no alternatives? I personally use KDE, because I got sick of the direction the GNOME developers had settled on. I'm not fussed about X or Wayland or sound; my requirements are modest, as long as I can see stuff on the screen. To me Linux is a tool - just like I don't need the best, biggest and fastest hammer in the world, I don't need my computers to be anything other than good enough for my purposes.

Linux has entered the same dismal feedback loop that Firefox has entered: the software got worse, which drove away the best users, which allowed the software to get even worse, which drove away mediocre users, which allowed the software to get even worse than that, which drove away the remaining users.

Not sure what you are talking about here - I don't think Linux is in decline. As for Firefox - what is "the best users"? And what does it have to do with the development of Firefox? That Firefox seems to have become worse over the years probably has more to do with the development team making some stupid decisions or commercial pressure. The users don't enter into it, I suspect.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[beastofburdon]

Really? Which distro are you comparing them to? Keep in mind that there are hundreds of different distros out there, and some of them run on phones too.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[beastofburdon]

It is not "free of charge". There is a free "upgrade" if you have one of a few specific versions of Windows, but otherwise you have to pay for it, and it still serves you ads.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[lsatenstein]

Gnome 3 was let out too soon. It should have remained as a beta until all of Gnome 2 was able to be replicated. Nautilus was cleaned of functionality, and so were many other desktop options.

Wayland is next. With Wayland, I can't issue sudo gparted /dev/sdc (Wayland can't understand terminal mode).
Nautilus is a tool for creating carpal tunnel problems with the mouse click fingers.

One of xfce, mate cinnamon and gnome2 or KDE is all that was needed as a base interface. I would say Gnome3 should still remain in beta for another two years.
   

Re: The Linux community is destroying itself.

[exomondo]

Sorry yes, that should have been "most people who use Linux".

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[beastofburdon]

Keep dreaming there fanboi.

Re:The Linux community is destroying itself.

[macs4all]

Keep dreaming there fanboi.

Actually, we're both dreaming, if either of us think it will ever be anything other than a Windows world, at least on the corporate desktop...

technical details on the conversion process.

[nimbius]

windows 10 users: conversion to xbox will be automatic, once you click the red X for X box on the prompt to upgrade
Linux/BSD/Mac: A drunken and slightly bloated Steve Ballmer clad in black spandex will shimmy up a drainpipe and into your bedroom window, where he will sail moistly past your desktop and furiously begin applying "x-box" stickers to the mini fridge in the corner of the room while furiously grunting "developers" over and over again under his breath.

Re:technical details on the conversion process.

[mrchaotica]

A drunken and slightly bloated Steve Ballmer clad in black spandex will shimmy up a drainpipe and into your bedroom window, where he will sail moistly past your desktop and furiously begin applying "x-box" stickers to the mini fridge in the corner of the room while furiously grunting "developers" over and over again under his breath.

That would be a terrifying thought if I believed for one nanosecond that Steve Ballmer had the athleticism necessary to shimmy up a drainpipe.

oh god no

[Prince Vegeta SSJ4]

Nooooo

We built an omni-UX and that sank into the swamp

[the_skywise]

So we built another on top of that and that caught fire, burned and sank into the swamp.

So we built one on top of that and forced everyone into compliance... and that UX, that UX son stood!

Repeating the same mistakes and expecting a different outcome is a sign of insanity!

I'm not even sure what the business model here is - That they'll save a few million by only having one development team across all platforms?

A TV interface that you control with a D-pad or joystick is NOT the same as a PC interface with a keyboard/mouse is NOT the same as a tablet interface with a touch screen. No matter how much you try to unify the concepts the interactions/navigations/cues are DIFFERENT at the very least from an input standard and not even counting things like screen resolutions, viewing distances and, becoming more commonplace, display hardware.

Now there's nothing wrong with having one app store with one purchasing account for all the platforms but the UX for those should be customized to maximize the benefits of each platform. My ATM, smartphone and bank teller are all ways I perform the same functions with my bank - But they're in NO WAY a unified experience!!!

Re:Linux here I come

[Tablizer]

If they do this I will never use a microsoft OS ever again.

I've been seeing this same threat since early 90's, every time MS did something stupid or sneaky (which is often). Is it the same procrastinator, or just young people new to the MS dance?

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[PincushionMan]

No!

Not unless you are running a Secure Boot (TM) authorized OS. On most firmware, we have options similar to ON (Secure) and OFF (Legacy). It will be trivial to have the hardware manufacturers set that to secure, be it in a firmware update or straight from the factory (e.g. Surface). Linux Secure Boot enabled OSes are Red Hat and possibly Fedora and CentOS. I think Ubuntu said they'd consider using Secure Boot signed binaries, but I don't know if they went through with acquiring the signing keys. In the Windows camp, Windows 7 is considered 'Legacy OS' (at least according to my motherboard). Windows 8 and 8.1 are grandfathered in for the short term.

I haven't owned a Mac in a while - does OpenFirmware have the option to disable Secure Boot? I suppose it must, I've seen at least one running Windows 7

Click the red X

[rsilvergun]

You'll be upgraded to Windows 10.

Unfortunately...

[Mysticalfruit]

Right in the middle of your COD match, the box will decide to upgrade itself to windows 10...

Not gonna happen

[rsilvergun]

So long as devs are allowed to write to bare Metal.

Re:Not gonna happen

[mrchaotica]

Indeed, which is why "turn[ing] every PC into an Xbox" almost certainly means disallowing that.

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[MachineShedFred]

OpenFirmware hasn't been a thing since PowerPC.

Intel-based Macs use EFI, and the Windows 7 booting was achieved through the use of EFI BIOS Compatibility Mode. Under Windows 8 and above you can perform a straight EFI install and it boots far faster due to leaving behind the programmed-IO legacy and legacy edge-triggered interrupt handling of BIOS.

Re:Linux here I come

[PopeRatzo]

If they do this I will never use a microsoft OS ever again. Nor will most businesses.

^This guy thinks it will mean having to control his Excel spreadsheet with an Xbox controller.^

I can understand not liking Windows, or Microsoft, but how in the hell is being able to run Xbox games on your Windows PC a complete, goodbye-cruel-world dealbreaker?

Re:Linux here I come

[MachineShedFred]

Yeah, because they absolutely won't have a single setting in Group Policy to disable the thing for entire AD forests.

Re:Linux here I come

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Well that and Linux isn't exactly a great Windows alternative. The Windows 10 silliness really would be a grand opportunity for Apple to release a cheaper Mac Mini.

Re:Not happening.

[Merk42]

Why would Microsoft let you play Xbone "console exclusive" games on any generic Windows 10 PC

Because Microsoft loses money on every sale of the hardware of an Xbox One. If people don't even have to buy the hardware, then it's a win for Microsoft.

Why the hell would I want that?

[Opportunist]

The average console port is already bad enough, with barely sensible screen resolutions, mediocre graphics that ignore all capabilities of modern graphics cards, a network code that simply assumes you don't give a fuck about security because, hey, I was written for a gaming console where such petty things like antivirus and firewall doesn't exist, not to mention the barely (if at all) changed controls that fit perfectly for console controllers but are simply unusable for a keyboard and mouse setup (bonus points if you leave in the aimbot for FPS games that's necessary so console players can hit anything with their shot controls).

And now I'd want this all and then some more shit GUARANTEED instead of just, well, likely? Basically what this means is that this would take the last chance away that the game maker at least makes it playable on a PC as an afterthought.

Re:Why the hell would I want that?

[CronoCloud]

a network code that simply assumes you don't give a fuck about security because, hey, I was written for a gaming console where such petty things like antivirus and firewall doesn't exist

Or any other Windows service for that matter, no anti-malware, print spool, or any other thing that starts at boot on Windows.

But I'm not for sure that PS4's and PS3's don't have some kind of basic iptables firewall running (after all they're BSD based).....let me zenmap the PS4.

Rest mode:

Scanning 192.168.1.101 [65535 ports]
Not shown: 65534 closed ports
PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION
41800/tcp open http Mongoose httpd
MAC Address: 70:9E:29:28:8E:32 (Sony)
Device type: game console
Running: FreeBSD, Sony embedded
OS CPE: cpe:/o:freebsd:freebsd cpe:/h:sony:playstation_4
OS details: Sony Playstation 4

Here's what I get when it's running:

Scanning 192.168.1.101 [65535 ports]
Discovered open port 9295/tcp on 192.168.1.101
Completed SYN Stealth Scan at 16:18, 336.23s elapsed (65535 total ports)
Initiating Service scan at 16:18
Scanning 2 services on 192.168.1.101
Completed Service scan at 16:18, 6.01s elapsed (2 services on 1 host)
Initiating OS detection (try #1) against 192.168.1.101
NSE: Script scanning 192.168.1.101.
Initiating NSE at 16:18
Completed NSE at 16:18, 1.45s elapsed
Initiating NSE at 16:18
Completed NSE at 16:18, 1.03s elapsed
Nmap scan report for 192.168.1.101
Host is up (0.00037s latency).
Not shown: 65533 closed ports
PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION
9295/tcp open unknown
41800/tcp open http Mongoose httpd
1 service unrecognized despite returning data. If you know the service/version, please submit the following fingerprint at https://nmap.org/cgi-bin/submi... :
SF-Port9295-TCP:V=7.12%I=7%D=6/7%Time=57573A17%P=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu%r
SF:(GenericLines,84,"HTTP/1\.1\x20403\x20Forbidden\r\nConnection:\x20close
SF:\r\nPragma:\x20no-cache\r\nContent-Length:\x200\r\nRP-Version:\x205\.0\
SF:r\nRP-Application-Reason:\x2080108bff\r\n\r\n");
MAC Address: 70:9E:29:28:8E:32 (Sony)
Device type: game console
Running: FreeBSD, Sony embedded
OS CPE: cpe:/o:freebsd:freebsd cpe:/h:sony:playstation_4
OS details: Sony Playstation 4

not to mention the barely (if at all) changed controls that fit perfectly for console controllers but are simply unusable for a keyboard and mouse setup

Then don't use a mouse and keyboard? After all if I want to text chat in an MMO on a console wouldn't I plug in a keyboard?

bonus points if you leave in the aimbot for FPS games that's necessary so console players can hit anything with their shot controls

It is not an aimbot, it is an "aim assist". In most cases, you can turn them off or control how much they assist.

And wouldn't that suggest that mouse aiming is easy mode for casual gamer-come-latelies whose first game was TF2?

Re:We built an omni-UX and that sank into the swam

[Anonymous Coward]

A TV interface that you control with a D-pad or joystick is NOT the same as a PC interface with a keyboard/mouse...

You know, I thought you were making that up, but I Googled it and it turns out douchepads do exist. I'm not sure I'd want to interface one with my computer, though.

Re:Not happening.

[lgw]

Why would Microsoft let you play Xbone "console exclusive" games on any generic Windows 10 PC, especially when those games can be pirated much more easily on PC?

MS doesn't care about how many XBones sell, they care about how many people are able to play XBox games. It's always the games that are the main source of revenue. Even better if they no longer needed to pay Steam a cut for console ports!

Re:Linux here I come

[F.Ultra]

Addicted to lube is that they are.

Re:Linux here I come

[wicka_wicka]

It's gotten to the point where the anti-Microsoft FUD is damn near worse than Microsoft's anti-Linux FUD ever was.

Re:We built an omni-UX and that sank into the swam

[avandesande]

I think that providing user configurable skins that optimizes for phone, tablet, PC and game console is an excellent idea..... unfortunately Microsoft has control issues and couldn't allow that.

Why didn't they do this in the first place?

[ShooterNeo]

Why didn't Microsoft do this long ago with original Xbox? The main limiting factor I can think of is that games of that era were written at such a low level that slight differences in hardware would break them. That's actually still a problem now - even if a user has a video card and CPU more powerful than what is in an Xbox One, even if it's an AMD GPU, PCs don't have integrated memory. There are ways to take advantage of both the CPU and GPU sharing the same address space, and those tricks would fail on PCs (even if Microsoft invents some software trick to hide this difference so that Xbox One games don't just crash)

Hmm. Only way I can think of is that Microsoft could release an API that is completely shared in common between Windows 10 PCs and Xboxes. Any game written to use this API would work on both. Technically, this is semi-true for lots of software now.

Another major issues is that part of the entire reason for consoles to exist at all is that it is vastly harder to pirate games. This negates that advantage. Also vastly harder to cheat. If a bunch of PC users can join into CoD matches against console tweens, with their aimbots and optical mice, it would be a slaughter...

No. No. No. No.

[Chas]

If I wanted a fucking XBox, I'd buy a fucking XBox.

I use my PC for actual WORK, and I wish those asshats at Microsoft would realize this and stop trying to turn my workstation into a goddamned game console!

Wasn't Windows 8 enough of a fucking clue that people LOATHED a non-desktop UI on a desktop computer? How many more interface abortions do they need to foist off on us until they get it through their fucking heads?

Do people want to pay $100-200 for an OS? No? Give THEM a fucking XBox.

Let me pay for my OS AND LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE!

You turn my firebreathing killer gaming PC...

[Glasswire]

...into a cheezy three hundred dollar X-Box and you're asking for trouble

Re:We built an omni-UX and that sank into the swam

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize you just described the XNA cross-platform compatibility scheme? Same core, UI adapted per device.

Re:The Console Is Dead So Use A Desktop!

[plover]

Actually, they're playing the Ol' Switcheroo long game. By putting out Windows 8 in the condition it was in, then offering Windows 10 as a "gee, we're so sorry about how horrible that was", they were legitimately able to claim that Windows 10 was an "upgrade" (because after Windows 8 an unclogged toilet qualifies as an upgrade.)

But nobody who uses Windows 7 has ever believed Windows 10 is any kind of upgrade. Normal users were forced into it by GWX; so their installation statistics can be twisted into making it sound like people are "voluntarily" upgrading, making this statement not technically a lie: "With over 100 million downloads, Windows 10 is our most popular OS ever." (They've since changed it to "our best OS ever.")

Re:Not happening.

[mrchaotica]

Why would Microsoft let you play Xbone "console exclusive" games on any generic Windows 10 PC, especially when those games can be pirated much more easily on PC?

Indeed, why would they? Consider that the headline is "turn every PC into an Xbox" and not "turn every Xbox into a PC [by removing the DRM]" and you might discover the answer.

Re:Linux here I come

[CronoCloud]

Oh, you know those PCMR types, especially the Europeans. For them, Diablo/Star Trek Online/XCOM2/Whatever being released on consoles was the end of the world.

So this is the inverse of that. Any mixing of console and PC will contaminate their precious Gaben-blessed basement dwelling bodily fluids or something.

They may as well...

[DoofusOfDeath]

No harm in Microsoft trying to blur the distinction between Windows 10 and an X Box. Because they're already done just about everything imaginable to get us to move our photography business to Mac.

I swear Nadella must be a double agent working for Apple or Google.

"DirectX in a console!" We went full circle.

[netsavior]

I swear to you we have gone full circle, wasn't Xbox supposed to be exactly this...

I present to you, the DirectX Box! All the power of a gaming PC, but in a console. We will call it "Xbox for short"~

Re:Linux here I come

[DoofusOfDeath]

Yes you will. If you really meant that, you'd have left windows long ago. Microsoft knows you're just going to whimper like a dog and roll over.

I can't speak for the GP, but a less-hyperbolic version of that statement is certainly true in my case. Until now my wife's photography business has been Windows-based. At the next hardware refresh cycle we're almost certainly moving to Mac.

I could almost hold my nose regarding the Windows 10 spyware. I hate it, but not enough to let that make a business decision for me. But the clincher is that we can't risk an errant, forced upgrade from Microsoft messing up our production environment. During the busy seasons, several days of downtime would be unacceptably painful. I'm not a big fan of Macs, but for unfathomable reasons Microsoft is making themselves unfit for use by some small businesses like ours.

Re:Linux here I come

[macs4all]

Well that and Linux isn't exactly a great Windows alternative. The Windows 10 silliness really would be a grand opportunity for Apple to release a cheaper Mac Mini.

WTF? $500 isn't cheap enough???

You haven't priced Intel CPUs lately, have you? The MSRP of the lowest-end CPU offered in a Mac mini (1.4 GHz i5), is almost 2/3 the luster price of the ENTIRE machine!!! Of course, Apple doesn't pay that; but I would be willing to bet that they pay around 60% of that, maybe more.

And before you whine about the $500 model, realize that 95% of Applications typically run on corporate desktops can EASILY be comfortably run on a machine of its specs. Easily.

OS X is not Windows. It is not NEARLY as RAM- Hungry, nor resource-hungry. Not having to run three layers of A/V helps...

Re:We built an omni-UX and that sank into the swam

[avandesande]

Well that is just for games, but seems to have been the obvious way to handle the various desktops for their operating system.

Re:Linux here I come

[FlyHelicopters]

WTF? $500 isn't cheap enough???

No, it isn't, and what you get for $500 is a shitty computer to boot...

Acer Aspire - Intel i3 - 3.6GHz - $300
http://amzn.to/1UxLhFh

For $200 less, you get a computer that is more than double the performance of the $500 Mac Mini, AND you can actually expand it. Add more RAM if you want, put a SSD in if you want, etc.

Plus, it comes with an actual keyboard and mouse to boot, something the Mac Mini lacks.

Re: Not happening.

[stud9920]

That's a myth. The units pay for themselves. Not with a sufficient margin to recoup development or marketing, but every other sale helps a little

They will eliminate the advantages of a PC

[HalAtWork]

Games that support this will lack any unofficial or unsanctioned mods, no community fixes possible, something that PC gamers consider to be crucial advantages for the platform

there were eight before that

[dltaylor]

There are people living now who didn't have 9, and, for a while Ceres was called a planet. You can either have 8, barring the specific discovery of IX, or dozens, when you throw in the rest of the TNOs and the KBOs.

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[PCM2]

Of course, science fiction has taken a hit: Planet IX sounds a whole lot less ominous than Planet X.

Many machines on IX. New machines.

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[camperdave]

I was in the Pluto-is-a-planet camp until I came across Orcus. Orcus is in an orbit that is almost identical to Pluto's, except inclined the other way. Both Pluto and Orcus have moons and are at a 2:3 orbital resonance with Neptune. This, and the abundance of other objects in similar 2:3 resonances with Neptune forced me to conclude that Pluto was just a hunk of debris that was caught in a gravitational "divot", much like a trojan asteroid.

Re:Linux here I come

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

I switched from Mac to PC mid 1990s because the PC had 10x the games. Both had Office. Both had Netscape. Games was the difference.

Note MS is moving heaven and earth to keep up the games on the PC. This is less about more X-box game sales and more about keeping the PC from drying up of games.

Of course, the PC is already drying up of anything except console-designed games and ports, so I don't see screaming, "Here come even more console games!" as buying much PC salvation.

I hope they ask first!

[TomGreenhaw]

The forced Windows 10 upgrades have been disastrous for our POS practice...

Re:No. No. No. No.

[shutdown -p now]

What made you believe that you can't still keep using your PC for "actual WORK", whatever that is?

Re:I'm a PC!

[Darinbob]

The fact that you're playing a console oriented game on a PC is already a massive disadvantage even if it worked well.

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[PinkyGigglebrain]

Maybe the next revision of GWX is going to get truly ambitious...

aka "systemd"? :D

Re:Linux here I come

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Depends on which Linux you're talking about -

No, it doesn't. It depends on which software you're using. For quite a few people, Linux is anywhere from adequate to awesome because of software support. For quite a few others, including myself, the Linux support either isn't there or it's not as strong. In my case there's a large speed hit because the developers have prioritized Windows over Linux.

First-time-configuration isn't even an issue with Linux adoption.

Back to the future

[Anonymous Coward]

"The desktop is dead" except we're going right back to what the desktop was 30 years ago, mostly low-end Commodore and Atari PC's hooked to a TV used 90% of the time for entertainment and some higher end IBM PC's for business. The desktop can't be dead if customers are demanding attached keyboards for tablets and consoles that can do everything. High-end keyboard-less mobile devices are what's dying right now. Mobile is moving to sub-$300 devices, mostly sub-$100 devices.

Re:No. No. No. No.

[Chas]

What made you believe that you can't still keep using your PC for "actual WORK", whatever that is?

Never said it couldn't. But wading through a stupid "Hey! Duuuude! I'm like an XBoooooooooooox!" interface cuts into my productivity.

MS Office on xbox

[Smiddi]

Wouldn't it be better to go the other way? - have an XBOX that accepts a mouse and keyboard, can check email and run MS Office suite? That would be a total winner.

Re:Linux here I come

[exomondo]

WTF? $500 isn't cheap enough???

Well you can get a Windows PC for $200 cheaper, of course then it runs Windows and you spend hours commenting on slashdot about how Microsoft's latest antics are negatively affecting you, but hey, you saved $200 so it must be totally worth it.

...funnily enough most of those Windows PCs can run OS X anyway.

Re:No. No. No. No.

[shutdown -p now]

If anything, it has been the other way around - Xbox interface keeps getting changed to whatever was then-up-to-date on Windows PCs.

Re:I'm a PC!

[AK Marc]

"Xbox, go to setings." Settings opened. What's the problem with the UI? Oh, you aren't using Kinect.

Re:Linux here I come

[donaldm]

Well that and Linux isn't exactly a great Windows alternative. The Windows 10 silliness really would be a grand opportunity for Apple to release a cheaper Mac Mini.

You are quite right "Linux isn't exactly a great Windows alternative" it is a fantastic MS Windows alternative that really allows you to get your work done and have plenty of time to do other more productive things, like beating that annoying boss in Bloodborne. :-)

Re:Linux here I come

[Mashiki]

For them, Diablo/Star Trek Online/XCOM2/Whatever being released on consoles was the end of the world.

Well let's just look at that shall we? In Diablo 1/2 we had random map generation, more skill trees, various "companion abilities/gear." All of that was dropped for D3 due to limitations on the consoles. STO never had a console release, so that's moot, it did have a mac release but there weren't even enough F2P players that it ended development. Xcom(prior to the recent remake), had: Large squads, various weapon options, large NPD customizations, dynamically generated maps, etc, etc, etc. The Xcom remake gutted many of those features, one of the core being dynamically generated maps. Though with Xcom2(despite all the bugs, they did fix that). Let's look at another. Dragon Age: Origins. Considered by many to be the best CRPG of the 00's, come along to DA2, which had a short development time, gameplay devices optimized for consoles, UI designed for consoles, very limited game interface/dialog interface. No top-down combat options. Very basic spell combos -- sorry kids no more whirling wind of winterstorm to destroy all enemies. Casting 3 spells in a row was too difficult.

How about FO4? Shitty UI changes, shitty dialog changes. See radial wheel that's become oh so popular with the "uh, huh, what" options colour coded because some people are still a bit too stupid and need playskool's first CRPG gaming design to help them out. Can't forget other changes like removing core components out because various other reasons. Good by karma, good by low intelligence playthrough...etc...

Haven't even started with other shit over the last few years. Best example of a game done right? Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

So this is the inverse of that. Any mixing of console and PC will contaminate their precious Gaben-blessed basement dwelling bodily fluids or something.

PC gamers have a good reason to be distrustful. Everytime something is made on the PC and then consolized, or ported over it has serious issues.

Re:No. No. No. No.

[Chas]

The term you're looking for is "cross-contamination".

And neither platform really benefits from it.

Re:Linux here I come

[FlyHelicopters]

Really? Better performance? With a i3?

Yes

PC Mag doesn't think so...

Learn what clock speed is, then buy yourself a clue...

A DUAL CORE i5 at 1.4GHz, even with a "turbo boost" to 2.7GHz, gets its ass kicked by a DUAL CORE i3 at 3.6GHz.

Oh, and by the time you "expand" it, it's hardly $300 now, is it?

Again, you're stupid and don't know what you're talking about. The $500 Mac Mini has 4GB of RAM and 500GB HD. The $300 Acer has 4GB of RAM and 500GB hard drive.

But the Mac Mini can't be upgraded. The Acer can.

Fact is,

No, the fact is you don't know what the hell you're talking about, you're another idiot running your mouth about shit you don't know anything about.

Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

[thegarbz]

Normally Microsoft does this to specific software packages, not to an entire industry.

Controllers

[Apostalypse]

On the face of it, it seems like a good idea for PC gamers to get some more AAA titles, but it means developers will have little incentive to develop PC specific versions. 9/10 We'll be forced to use joypads for all games too, there's no way they'll let WASD twitchers compete with sofa fiddlers. Console FPS games have built in aiming hacks to cope with the inadequacies of the joypad for FPS play. I'm a mediocre gamer, and I played against some friends using some hacky hardware to play on the Xbox with kb and mouse, and it was a massacre. There's no way they'll let that happen, and there's only one way they'll level the playing field.

Doesn't count without the games.

[sabbede]

Streaming and porting the UI is all well and good, but unless the games are binary-compatible it's not "turning every PC into an XBOX".

Re:Linux here I come

[CronoCloud]

In Diablo 1/2 we had random map generation, more skill trees, various "companion abilities/gear." All of that was dropped for D3 due to limitations on the consoles.

Do you even play D3? Because it DOES have random map generation (Rifts). The Static maps of the Campaign are there because it's a static campaign with story. D3 also has various companion abilities/gear. And since the PC version was released first, the console version wasn't announced till February of 2013, any differences from D1/2 were by design for the PC. if you just wanted to play a game exactly like D2, just play D2. The reason D3 is the way it is, is because that's how the developers wanted the design choices to be, not because of any supposed console limitations.

Besides, D1 on the PSone has the exact same map generation the PC version does.

[quote]STO never had a console release, so that's moot,[/quote]

I was referring to the upcoming console release, which is causing some players of the PC version to act like it's the end of the world.

Xcom(prior to the recent remake), had: Large squads, various weapon options, large NPD customizations, dynamically generated maps, etc, etc, etc.

You're forgetting that 1994's Xcom Enemy Unknown/UFO Defense and 1995's X-com Terror from the Deep were crossplatform with the PSone. The changes in the modern Xcom were simply design choices for the modern age.

come along to DA2, which had a short development time, gameplay devices optimized for consoles, UI designed for consoles, very limited game interface/dialog interface. No top-down combat options. Very basic spell combos

Seems to me like you're blaming consoles for design choices that the designers made to lower the barriers to entry for players on ALL platforms. After all, bearded hexmap tabletop grognards might like arcane UI and top-down combat design, but a lower percentage of players, even on PC are tabletop grognards.

Besides, Wasteland 2 and Divinity proved you could do the classic Bioware style that you're referring to on console. So all those things you don't like....don't blame them on consoles. Blame them on the fact that the average PC gamer these days is a goatteed backwards cap wearing Gaben-worshipping meme-spouting LoL or TF2 player, rather than a bearded Janes reading engineer with a shelf full of Avalon Hill games who wants to play computer versions of his AH games, D&D games and flight sims.

Goodbye karma,

They took out the Karma system because some F3 and FNV players thought it was too "artificial", not because of any console thing.

goodbye low intelligence playthrough

Design choice not due to a console limitation, because F3 and FNV had that option.

PC gamers have a good reason to be distrustful.

No, you don't. You just want to make up excuses to be PCMR jerks and brag about your quad GTX Titan e-peens.

Re:Even Linux Boxes?

[neilo_1701D]

I was in the Pluto-is-a-planet camp until I came across Orcus.

This is what I love about Slashdot: the vast repository of frightfully interesting but otherwise useless information that pops up from time to time in the comments. Never heard or Orcus before; now I have! Thank you!

so...and give it a death like with WMC

[Anonymous Coward]

For those of you that do not know, Windows Media Center is a very fine app, that used to run on Windows 7 - Great TV recording capabilities. In Win8 this was obtainable as a 'separate product' to be installed - but it still worked....well, sort - off.
Come Windows 10 and guess what...it not working anymore. Na-da. not even available.

All I'm saying is watch out.....XBox "may' follow the same path....
My useless, diminishing 2c

Re: I'm a PC!

[stealth_finger]

Are you sure? It's the people who use kinect that have the degraded experience imho. With each update they've moved things around a bit and tried to make it easier but you've always been able to go into settings and they're all there. Ok, you might have to find that if you don't initially know where it is instead of saying xbox whatever, but mad exploration? Hardly. FYI all settings is at the bottom of the quick menu you get by double tapping the guide button. You can get practically anywhere from there without talking to your console, looking and feeling like a twat while you repeat commands because it doesn't understand your ever so slightly off norm accent then just doing it manually anyway.

Re:I'm a PC!

[stealth_finger]

The fact that you're playing a console oriented game on a PC is already a massive disadvantage even if it worked well.

Ha PC master race never noticed the switch when console games get ported to pc rather than the other way around nowadays. They're all the same anyway just what input device they've been designed for primarily.

Re:I'm a PC!

[stealth_finger]

Double tap guide, down to all settings. Jobs a good'un, probably just as quick as you saying whatever if not quicker as it doesn't have to process your voice to figure out what you want, if it can even understand your accent. Anyway with the next update you don't even need kinect to do voice commands, not that you ever should have but there you go. Kinect is a mostly useless piece of shit (disclaimer, when attached to an xbox, in itself it's actually pretty cool and has a ton of cool applications. proper gaming isn't one of them. Not yet anyway).

Re:I'm a PC!

[Darinbob]

I'm not master race, just PC user. I make fun of those who feel that they must have the most expensive set ups with dual graphics cards, etc. Yes, I have noticed that sort of dumb games get ported to PC (only save a checkpoints, circular selection menus, etc). Some dumb features are just for a dumbing down of players overall I think (game is one gigantic cutscene with QTEs). I don't play shooters much so I missed some of this. But not all games on PC are dumbed down Assassin's Creed or GTA crap shoved out super fast to satisfy the teen console players sitting on a couch. Look at Pillars of Eternity or Wasteland 2.

And there are more changes than input device. Fallout 4 modding on PC is much better than on consoles because you're not locked into a walled garden. Bethesda didn't even allow modding on consoles before this. Because a console forces you into the walled garden, even if it's on the network; you can not easily backup or modify files, change input devices, pop up a browser while playing, use adblock, play games from eariler or competing consoles, send messages with your own message system without creating a specialize account from the console maker, and so forth.

Re:I'm a PC!

[AK Marc]

The issue with me is that if I'm using it for media, the remote falls asleep (or I put it there to save battery) and waking it up takes longer than the voice command, even if the button presses were instantaneous.

Re:I'm a PC!

[stealth_finger]

That is true, I don't have one of the remotes but the pad does turn off after 15 mins and needs a few seconds to switch back on.

Re:I'm a PC!

[stealth_finger]

I was probably a bit hasty typing that and it kinda made me look like a twat, so, sorry about that. I think what it is, is that most of the big AAA blockbusters games are developed for console then ported over to pc because money. Games that are PC only do tend to be much more involved as they don't have the tight requirements to meet or stingy publishers to please. Mod support a plenty (cheating goes hand in hand with that though so it's a double edged blade), graphics options and much much more

I am primarily a xbox player but can quite honestly say my two main games with many more hours than anything are elite and bf4. Two games which very much started pc and then moved over and they do not suffer at all for it.

Re:I'm a PC!

[Darinbob]

Single player games, who cares who cheats? Yet the console players are calling anyone using mods in Fallout 4 a cheater. There'sa completely different mindset.

Re:I'm a PC!

[stealth_finger]

Solo games cheat away, who cares, more power to you. It's multiplayer where it's a problem. I've not heard of people using fallout mods called cheaters. As far as I know they disable achievements because some of them are basically cheats but that's besides the point. I have heard of pc players moaning about Xbox users apparently 'stealing' mods though, if that's even a thing.

Re:I'm a PC!

[Darinbob]

They disabled achievements not because of cheats (console is still there for cheats), but because achievements on consoles are worth money or discounts or something like that. But achievements are reinstated by using a mod (via DLL, something impossible on consoles).

There is a stealing mods thing; I don't care about it myself but some people don't like their free stuff being taken and another name put on them.

Re:I'm a PC!

[stealth_finger]

Achievements on consoles ain't worth shit. I mean more spawn any item, super weapons type cheats rather than noclip and other console stuff.