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Tom Wheeler Defeats the Broadband Industry: Net Neutrality Wins In Court (bloomberg.com)

Andrew M Harris and Todd Shields, reporting for Bloomberg: The Federal Communications Commission won a major appeals court ruling supporting its efforts to prevent broadband Internet service providers from favoring some types of web traffic over others. The Washington-based court Tuesday denied challenges to the federal government's so-called net neutrality regulations, which were backed by President Barack Obama. The ruling hands a victory to those who champion the notion of an open internet where service providers are prevented from offering speedier lanes to content providers willing to pay for them. It's a defeat for challengers including AT&T Inc., Verizon Communications Inc. and Comcast Corp., which said the rule would discourage innovation and investment.FCC Chairman Tom Wheeler said, "Today's ruling is a victory for consumers and innovators who deserve unfettered access to the entire web, and it ensures the Internet remains a platform for unparalleled innovation, free expression and economic growth. After a decade of debate and legal battles, today's ruling affirms the Commission's ability to enforce the strongest possible internet protections -- both on fixed and mobile networks -- that will ensure the internet remains open, now and in the future."

165 comments

  1. Great News by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This effectively means it's settled. Comcast et al could still request an en banc hearing from the full Court of Appeals, but that's unlikely to succeed. They could appeal to the US Supreme Court, but with the current 4-4 split on the court, the best they could hope for is that the USSC would split and leave the Appeals Court ruling standing as is, at the same time they'd risk a 5-3 decision affirming net neutrality depending on how Kennedy swings.

    Of course, this could still be overturned if Trump wins and gets to override the pick for the next Justice, nevermind that a GOP congress plus Trump would be free to pass whatever anti-net neutrality legislation they want, or to replace the pro-neutrality majority of the FCC commissioners with a Republican one.

    1. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean if the Great Evil Dictator Obama is finally thrown from power, Trump and the GOP will finally be able to implement a pro-business agenda that will let the Free Market (it's great because we say it's free) solve everybody's problems for them. Because you see, everything the government has ever touched has always gone poorly, and if the government ever gets its grubby paws on the internet, it'll be ruined forever, all the wonderful conduct of enterprising individuals conducting their business as they see fit will be replaced with some horrible liberty-eradicating bureaucracy.

    2. Re:Great News by danomac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Response translated from AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast: "Waaah, we can't upcharge for any existing or new service that comes along on the internet." Discourage innovation my ass. I'd say it's more likely that people will develop for an open internet than a closed one. After all, the developers would the ones having to pay the ISPs as well as the ISP's customers getting charged more for the service. I don't think that would go well in the long run.

    3. Re:Great News by rsborg · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This effectively means it's settled. Comcast et al could still request an en banc hearing from the full Court of Appeals, but that's unlikely to succeed. They could appeal to the US Supreme Court, but with the current 4-4 split on the court, the best they could hope for is that the USSC would split and leave the Appeals Court ruling standing as is, at the same time they'd risk a 5-3 decision affirming net neutrality depending on how Kennedy swings.

      Of course, this could still be overturned if Trump wins and gets to override the pick for the next Justice, nevermind that a GOP congress plus Trump would be free to pass whatever anti-net neutrality legislation they want, or to replace the pro-neutrality majority of the FCC commissioners with a Republican one.

      It's really pretty staggering, considering that Democrats were supposed to be the "party of RIAA" back in the Clinton days (see Hollings, Senator from Disney). Sure, Lamar Alexander (R-Asshole) has been pretty good at picking up all of Hollings business once Hollings left Congress, but it's pretty interesting that the anti-free-internet banner has been picked up so thoroughly by the Republicans.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    4. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well then here's my response: Suck it Comcast, TWC, AT&T, Verizon, etc. Hope you enjoy your low-margin dumb pipe business because you made the bed with your greed and arrogance in this whole mess.

      All you had to do is not rent-seek and act as an actual competitive business with vision and capital investment. But no, you bribed politicians, stifled innovation, pocketed tax dollars and acted like that was how this business should be. Fuck the consumer.

      So even with your relegation to being a dumb pipe provider, I hope Google, Ting, municipal broadband, etc. continue to slowly eat your lunch and drive you into a zero-profit model. And nimble upstarts appear that can actually turn a fair profit while your fat asses are too heavy to do so.

      Then whine all you want about how gov't unfairly destroyed your comfy profits. By then hopefully consumers won't need to care because actual competition will have become the norm and you just won't matter any more.

      TL;DR: Fuck you Comcast, TWC, AT&T, Verizon, and the rest of the anti-NN crowd.

    5. Re:Great News by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They could appeal to the US Supreme Court, but with the current 4-4 split on the court, the best they could hope for is that the USSC would split and leave the Appeals Court ruling standing as is

      Unless you're the Oracle of Delphi it's extremely dangerous to try and predict how SCOTUS Justices will swing on any given issue. They rarely break down along predictable partisan lines, even on the highly divisive political issues of the day (e.g., Roberts on the ACA) never mind something as technical as network neutrality and telecom regulation. People who try to politicize the Court miss the point; I suspect Liberals could find more than a few things to admire about Scalia (Kelo v. New London) if they were honest with themselves, as well as a few things to hate about the Justices on "their" side (Gonzales v. Raich). Conservatives could do the same, again, assuming they were willing to be honest with themselves, rather than blindly rooting for the "home team."

      Anyhow, I digress. I would not even venture a guess as to how any of them would vote on NN. If you forced me at gunpoint to make a prediction it would be that they decline to issue any sweeping ruling; they'd kick it back down to the Appeals Court, 8-0, with clarification on one or two items of dispute.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    6. Re:Great News by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      but it's pretty interesting that the anti-free-internet banner has been picked up so thoroughly by the Republicans.

      They don't see it that way; principled Republicans see a slippery slope now that the FCC is regulating the internet, which you may recall got to be what it is today largely because it was unregulated. Are such fears grounded in reality? Hard to say; come back in 20 years and let's see what the internet looks like then.

      (Unprincipled Republicans are crony capitalists, more worried about their Big Telecom donors than Big FCC; condemn them if you'd like, but be honest enough to admit there are at least as many Crony Capitalists among the Democrats, including the one that is now their presumptive nominee for POTUS.)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    7. Re:Great News by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      It's settled, legally, but don't think the fight is over. The GOP in Congress will still try to prevent the FCC from enforcing Net Neutrality via methods like defunding the FCC. And, if Trump wins, expect that Wheeler will be pushed out in favor of someone who will do what the industry wants the FCC to do.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    8. Re:Great News by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      And we'll never, ever see any government censoring the internet - except China, North Korea, Syria, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Tunisia, Burma, Turkmenistan, Vietnam, Turkey, ...

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    9. Re:Great News by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Discourage innovation my ass.

      You're confused my friend. They mean it will discourage innovation in their price gouging -- I mean -- strategies and business models.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    10. Re:Great News by kqs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      now that the FCC is regulating the internet, which you may recall got to be what it is today largely because it was unregulated.

      In the late 80s, the internet was just this weird academic network that could not make money so no corporations paid any attention to it. Businesses were fighting over various online services (were you on Compuserve, or AOL, or The Source?). Then the government funded the NSFnet, and let outside companies join onto the NSFnet. And still nobody cared about the internet.

      Then government-funded CERN invented the WWW, and government-funded NCSA invented Mosaic, and people started to care about the internet.

      So "unregulated" for a bunch of government-funded projects is a very relative term. Far less regulated than the other online services, I'll grant you, but those were all regulated by their corporate owners, not by the government.

      And that's really the lesson here. The internet won because it had far less overall regulation, while the other services were locked down and controlled. Now, the big ISPs want to "regulate" their pipes. The government passed a regulation, net-neutrality, which says "nobody can lock-down and control their pipes in certain uncompetitive ways". So, I think that you are arguing for very high (but corporate) regulation, and the NN folks are arguing for very low (but governmental) regulation.

      You want no regulation? As long as it makes money, that cannot happen. But we get to choose between one hands-off sheriff, or a bunch of small despotic warlords. And I'm happy with how the court has chosen.

    11. Re:Great News by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      They don't see it that way; principled Republicans see a slippery slope now that the FCC is regulating the internet, which you may recall got to be what it is today largely because it was unregulated. Are such fears grounded in reality? Hard to say; come back in 20 years and let's see what the internet looks like then.

      The FCC is regulating the internet to be fair - nothing more. The internet got the way it is because it was unregulated, but fair. It was only in the past decade that tit was possible to be unfair - that you could limit Netflix usage while keeping speeds up to your services, for example. Then you could bill Netflix some money so you could give them the bandwidth they had before.

      Or an ISP could jitter VoIP packets to make their telephone offerings better and make competing solutions worse.

      All the FCC has done was put an end to such practices by making it so you cannot prefer a provider over another. Imagine the fun that could be had by Comcast if Comcast decided to pit Sony and Microsoft against each other - perhaps it's Monday, so Microsoft gets to have low-lag online gaming. But not on Tuesdays, because Sony paid for Tuesdays.

    12. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about? Of course the Supreme Tyrant Obama will censor everyone. He never lets anyone talk bad about him, ever. He has personally stopped Congress from ever proposing an alternative to his healthcare plan, and made Trump unable to articulate anything reasonable or sane.

      Unlike McDonald's, who will let you praise the McNuggets, and tell the truth about the Whopper, just sign this NDA so you don't spill the beans about the e. coli, that's your free choice though, you don't have to sign it, they can just shut you down with a massive harassment campaign so everybody thinks that their overheated coffee is not at fault when you poured it all over yourself.

      Obama would never allow you that freedom. He hates freedom. He hates you being free to starve. To suffer. To be sold into slavery. To have your nation made into a colony of the Empire.

      Obama, he can't stand that liberty.

    13. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you'll never complain about Comcast censoring the internet because it's ok when it's not a government doing it.

    14. Re:Great News by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Of course, this could still be overturned if Trump wins and gets to override the pick for the next Justice, nevermind that a GOP congress plus Trump would be free to pass whatever anti-net neutrality legislation they want, or to replace the pro-neutrality majority of the FCC commissioners with a Republican one.

      Historically, campaign contributions from the telecom industry have slightly favored Democrats (scroll to the bottom). And Hillary Clinton is by far the biggest recipient from that industry in recent years with 3.4x the money received by the second biggest recipient. Bernie Sanders is the third biggest recipient.

    15. Re:Great News by ubrgeek · · Score: 5, Funny

      > were you on Compuserve, or AOL, or The Source?

      Yes. Now get off my lawn.

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
    16. Re:Great News by Shakrai · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You want no regulation?

      I didn't say anything about what I wanted. :)

      I will say that it bothers me that the FCC has successfully claimed this authority for itself. It should bother anyone that truly cares about NN. There's no promise that tomorrow's FCC Commissioner will be pro-consumer. In fact, given the two Presidential candidates currently running, I'd say it's more likely than ever that we get another crony capitalist ex-telecom lobbyist as the next commissioner. Hillary Clinton is the definition of crony capitalist, she owes her personal fortune and political success to Wall Street. Donald Trump is an unknown, I doubt he's given the issue (or any issue for that matter) serious thought, but I'm not betting on him finding another Tom Wheeler. Besides, if he wins NN is the least of our worries.....

      Incidentally, NN was born after a few boneheaded remarks by AT&T's CEO, about charging Google and others for access to "his" pipes. It wasn't a response to actual abuse, rather, it was a response to the possibility of abuse. None of what the FCC is regulating against ever came to pass. Might it have, one day? Perhaps. But here in the real world we're seeing broadband costs increase many times faster than inflation, despite lower than ever CapEx, and there's nothing theoretical about caps and zero rating. They exist, in the real world, and they're doing real damage to the internet as we've always known it.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    17. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's not over until the fat lady (or, fat cats) in congress and executive offices sings and say it is. unfortunately, this is far from over.

      and it's really, really cute that you think a republican congress will play ball with a president trump. my thinking is that any actual smart lawmakers, if they actually exist, will distance themselves immediately, perhaps even to the point of switching parties or going independent. a republican member of congress or senate in 2017 if trump takes office will probably soon be looking for a new line of work.

    18. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Kennedy swings?

      Does he? It's good to hear he's got an active social life this late in his life.

    19. Re:Great News by Shakrai · · Score: 2

      See my other reply. Most everything that you're worrying about were theoretical abuses. The Netflix issue is the only thing you mention that actually happened and it's still unclear to me how much of that was Reed Hastings trying to offload his cost of doing business onto others -- Netflix does not have completely clean hands here or elsewhere -- and how much was the ISPs being dicks. I suspect a little bit of Column A and a little bit of Column B.

      Meanwhile, as I said in my other post, caps and zero rating are fait accomplis, and they're doing real damage to the internet. This is and always was FUD. This and this are real and the FCC is doing nothing about them. Color me skeptical that they're likely to intervene at this point, as I said, they're fait accomplis. We spent a decade fighting over abuses that never actually happened while the ISPs were busy building a fence around one killer app (video) that directly competes with them, while precluding the emergence of future killer apps, and massively increasing their own revenues to boot.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    20. Re: Great News by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      I was a BBSer, and actually a the sysop/owner of a popular local board. Yes, it was my lawn everybody was hanging around on...

    21. Re:Great News by Kiaser+Zohsay · · Score: 1

      And you'll never complain about Comcast censoring the internet because it's ok when it's not a government doing it.

      Complain all you want. If Comcast is censoring your internet, they are censoring you. No one will ever hear you.

      --
      I am not your blowing wind, I am the lightning.
    22. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I will say that it bothers me that the FCC has successfully claimed this authority for itself. It should bother anyone that truly cares about NN. There's no promise that tomorrow's FCC Commissioner will be pro-consumer. ...

      Incidentally, NN was born after a few boneheaded remarks by AT&T's CEO, about charging Google and others for access to "his" pipes. It wasn't a response to actual abuse, rather, it was a response to the possibility of abuse. None of what the FCC is regulating against ever came to pass. Might it have, one day? Perhaps.But here in the real world we're seeing broadband costs increase many times faster than inflation, despite lower than ever CapEx, and there's nothing theoretical about caps and zero rating. They exist, in the real world, and they're doing real damage to the internet as we've always known it.

      And this is what confuses me. On the one hand, you worry about the possibility of the FCC being abusive, ignore that the FCC stepping in almost certainly is partly why AT&T's CEO's plan never came to pass (although similar plans with Netflix have turned to throttling), and then you further complain about other abuses that the FCC should be doing something about. If your problem is merely that the FCC ordained itself with authority over the internet, I have to shrug my shoulders because given Congress' gridlock it would seem the only reasonable step to take, especially since the FCC is precisely the organization that would almost certainly receive that authority to act for issues that arise. If your problem is with regulation, I don't see why you're complaining about the last point because to call it "real damage" when the "free market"* is acting to do these things is really arguing against the free market.

      The only last part is that the FCC is currently not effective enough in its acts, which stems from the fact that its self-grabbed authority is limited and it would take Congress to bestow some serious power instead of the conflated powers of legalistic extrapolation. And as for not being pro-consumer? Well, we're fucked pretty well regardless on that front whether the FCC is pro-consumer or not given how companies, as you complain, are already fucking us over. Unless your issue is with the "free market"* but then that is very much a States issue and honestly has nothing to do with the FCC and is something you should be complaining to your State about.

      * The most serious complaint is the local, often municipal, monopolies granted to an ISP as an extrapolation of their cable TV or phone service monopoly. It's why we have more of a "free market" than a free market--although I'm not convinced a free market could fix things with the high barrier to entry of laying so much cable, fiber, etc (Google laying fiber rather proves the point). Dealing with that, though, requires 50 states engaging in 50 separate actions to change thousands of municipalities and it'll still be potentially a decade to see serious change. In any case, the real point is that most States aren't pro-consumer. That's much more troubling than whether Hillary or Trump become President.

    23. Re:Great News by geoskd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Clinton is just as much (possibly more) a big business shill as Trump.

      Trump is pro business in the he wants limited liability sense

      Clinton is pro business in the already sold out to specific ones sense

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    24. Re:Great News by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Net Neutrality is not necessarily a right vs left or conservative vs liberal issue. The conservatives on the court are not going to reject it merely because a democrat is president. They have managed to have unanimous rulings.

    25. Re:Great News by inode_buddha · · Score: 3, Informative

      The FCC hasn't claimed anything. The Telco reform act of 1996 (Bill Clinton) gives this authority, atop the Act of 1934 which created the FCC in the first place. So, if you have an issue with it, you should take it up with your congressional representatives.

      --
      C|N>K
    26. Re:Great News by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      And, if Trump wins, expect that Wheeler will be pushed out in favor of someone who will do what the industry wants the FCC to do.

      I find the belief that Clinton would be any better rather amusing, to say the least. There is no hope of any improvement or change while we let democrat/republicans dominate and divide our attention. There are other candidates on the ballot.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    27. Re:Great News by Shakrai · · Score: 2

      On the one hand, you worry about the possibility of the FCC being abusive, ignore that the FCC stepping in almost certainly is partly why AT&T's CEO's plan never came to pass

      I don't think AT&T had a "plan" per se; I think their CEO foolishly ran his mouth, lamenting that he couldn't double dip, and the net community ran with it. There was a lot of FUD on our side of the issue, best exemplified by this graphic, and for awhile we were conflating long standing peering practices/disputes as network neutrality issues and the like.

      Do I think that AT&T would have liked to charge Google for using "his" pipes? Absolutely. Do I think he would have had the balls to actually do it? Can't say. I do feel like we focused on the wrong issues though and I'm not so sure that in 20 years we're going to fondly remember this decision. I'd like to think that we will but only time will tell. Remember, what the FCC giveth the FCC can taketh away.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    28. Re:Great News by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      I'm not a Clinton supporter either. I was a Bernie Sanders supporter but - as much as I still like him, I'm realistic enough to know that Hillary's going to be the Democrat's nominee now. If I was forced to choose between the two, I'd choose Hillary, but only as a "lesser of two evils." My actual vote is likely going to be cast for Jill Stein.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    29. Re:Great News by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      I find the belief that Clinton would be any better rather amusing, to say the least

      So, Hillary gets into office...and does what exactly, regarding Net Neutrality?

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    30. Re:Great News by speedplane · · Score: 1

      It's really pretty staggering, considering that Democrats were supposed to be the "party of RIAA" back in the Clinton days

      Net neutrality has little to do with strong copyright protections. You can easily support strong copyright laws (as well as DRM, closed source software, and other things technophiles hate), while still supporting net neutrality.

      --
      Fast Federal Court and I.T.C. updates
    31. Re:Great News by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Nothing. Her friends in the business will take care of things. Public relations will smooth things over. That's all this is. The monopolies are all still in place, the pipe is not content agnostic, and prices are still quite arbitrary. She will get her two terms, if she takes the job. And, as usual, 95% of congress will keep their jobs too. Another day in paradise.

      Now then, what are you expecting from Hillary?

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    32. Re:Great News by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      Her friends in the business will take care of things.

      Hmm, a vague, meaningless sentence. You just can't bring yourself to say she'll order the FCC to reverse Net Neutrality. Wonder why that is...

      Now then, what are you expecting from Hillary?

      Depends on the down ballot races. Hillary + GOP Congress = Fuck all and lots of it. Hillary + Senate = holding the Obama line on financial affairs with a remote chance of small improvements. Hillary + Dem Congress = Might actually get some sensible gun laws up in this bitch.

      Once again: This shit ain't hard. You're the one making it so.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    33. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "made Trump unable to articulate anything reasonable or sane."
      Obama had _nothing_ to do with that

    34. Re: Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean, "pro-business" as in, "give me your business and I'll bankrupt it."

      Much more accurate depiction.

    35. Re:Great News by fustakrakich · · Score: 0

      OMG! Gun laws! "Obama" line on financial affairs! (another Clinton bubble) You really are fished in... And here I was thinking you were beyond mass media talking points.

      No, their normal process of dealing with consumer protection is to water it down, drawing as little attention as possible. Do you pretend not to comprehend this? And are you still going to keep on trying to convince me that the democrats and republicans oppose each other in everyday affairs? You are the ideal Hillarybot, actually demobot. You know your lines well. Oh well, with the weak candidates you put up and demand we all vote for (just like in 2000), you shouldn't be so upset when the other side wins.

      Forget Hillary. Vote for Stein, and greens into congress, that is if you want to validate any complaints you have about the system. Otherwise you just sound like a damn fool.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    36. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free Market (it's great because we say it's free)

      I always remember in Alpha Centauri where FM is +2 Economy, -3 Planet, -5 Police :)

      -5 Police basically makes it impossible to fight a war without your population revolting, without some way to tone it down to -3.

    37. Re:Great News by Coren22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Suspiciously, the post above me appears completely blank, is anyone else having this issue?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    38. Re:Great News by rock_climbing_guy · · Score: 1

      If she gets a second term, perhaps it will be in jail, rather than in office!

      --
      Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
    39. Re:Great News by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      Do you pretend not to comprehend this?

      Not one bit, because you continually fail to how explain how all these wondrous things will happen. These are your arguments in a nutshell:

      1: Smoke filled rooms!
      2: You're all sheeple!

      Should you care to expound further, feel free. Meanwhile, in my corner, I have an FCC ruling which has survived hefty legal challenges, is publicly and heartily endorsed as a good thing by the nominee for the Democratic Party. Further, no bookie in the world will give you good odds on the makeup of the Supreme Court changing in any way in the near future so as to endanger this new status quo.

      So explain to me, in more detail than you've ever been able to muster, exactly what's going to happen that makes this a non-starter as an argument?

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    40. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coren22 backup your alleged self-proclaimed professional status in security + programming. Your evasions? Laughable https://slashdot.org/comments.... @ your expense, hahahaha!

    41. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When corporations talk about innovation they mean maximizing profit while minimizing cost.

    42. Re:Great News by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Maybe you weren't around for the Nixon thing. That simply will not happen. She will be pardoned.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    43. Re:Great News by Falos · · Score: 1

      I dunno, they seem inspired as fuck to find clever workarounds, like exemption towards data caps. I'm sure they're innovating like crazy in thinktanks even now. But thinking is haaaaaard.

      Not that I have a horse in the race. I don't stream video, I don't really smartphone roam (or at all), I'm not really in their crosshairs.

    44. Re:Great News by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      It is all down to money grubbing worthless middle men, publishers. Basically the old world publishers RIAA et al won out against the ISP publishers. Basically the ISP wanted to kick all the other publishers off the internet and take over, they wanted their APPLE iTunes style kickback, 30% of all digital sales to go to the ISP or your traffic won make it through, that is all it was about. Nothing to do with bandwidth or traffic congestion, the ISP wanted a percentage of all digital sales and if you didn't pay they wanted to kill your ability to sell and upload your content.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    45. Re:Great News by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      The real effect is that high-bandwidth Over the Top parasites like Netflix get a free ride

      How are they parasites? They pay for the bandwidth they use. And so do their customers.

    46. Re:Great News by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      You link to the EFF's "zero rating" report, but is that not the exact sort of net neutrality abuse that these rules were supposed to counteract?

    47. Re:Great News by antdude · · Score: 1

      What about Prodigy, BBSes, etc.? :P

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    48. Re:Great News by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      Yes, because this will be the one magic regulation that big business is somehow unable to twist to their advantage.

      I'm in favor of network neutrality, but opposed to Network Neutrality. I just don't believe that new regulatory powers are the cure to problems created by the old regulatory powers.

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
    49. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He came out against Amazon. I wouldn't count him out necessarily.

      (And if you think that's only because Bezos has been attacking him, well, Tom Wheeler did this because some companies screwed him over.)

    50. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next battle will be to stop deliberate blocking of features or data among Apple, Google, Amazon - example deliberate blocking or disabling video streams of competitors where there is no technical reason data cannot be shared.

    51. Re:Great News by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      You've exactly nailed the issue. This isn't about offering "faster" lanes for people who pay, this is about clogging down and limiting the people who don't pay.

      "That's a nice on-demand video delivery service you've got there - it would be a shame if somethin was to happen to it..."

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    52. Re: Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prodigy. Or weren't you rad enough?

    53. Re:Great News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and the internet didn't take off until nsf got out of the picture.

      so does net neutrality mean dos attacks and malware are now protected?

      how does quality of service work? can i run cat videos while someone is getting net assisted surgery?

  2. Major Loss for Internet Freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Also a major loss for internet freedom generally. The big issue in the case was whether the government could classify the internet as a Title II communications carrier - which allowed it to dramatically expand the type of regulation it is subject to. Net neutrality light was just a first step and will be looked back as the first time the FCC became the "Department of the Internet."

    1. Re:Major Loss for Internet Freedom by Jawnn · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Actually, as a paid shill for the telecom industry, Mr. AC understands the subject just fine, but he's paid to stick to the script. You know, the one where consumers don't have a chance of getting a fair deal in something as complicated as Internet service unless Big Telecom is there to control it (expand, innovate, and similar benevolent sounding terms).

    2. Re:Major Loss for Internet Freedom by Berkyjay · · Score: 1

      A Department of the Internet sounds pretty sweet.

    3. Re:Major Loss for Internet Freedom by anegg · · Score: 4, Interesting
      One of the things I like about "the Internet" is that Internet Service Providers (the actual entities that were found to be Title II communications carriers) are most emphatically NOT the Internet. In the days of CompuServe, AOL, GENIE, et al., that confusion was understandable, because the only part of the service that wasn't run by the commercial provider was the actual analog telephone circuit used to carry the modulated data. Now, however, the major ISPs have steadily reduced most elements of service that used to be expected: no FTP services, no web site hosting except for very lame web site hosting, no USENET news feeds; the only thing most of them do except provide transit of IP packets from a subscriber's premise is provide e-mail hosting.

      The Internet is a grand bazaar, forum, and meeting place, and what is needed on the parts of the absolutely necessary firms that transport our communications traffic to/from the Internet is for them to most emphatically not muck with it, whether that mucking comes in the form of "super-cookies" (injections of information into what should be inviolate virtual connections), invading people's privacy by tracking what they are doing, or trying to enhance their profits by trying to charge both ends for the same traffic.

      There IS honor in providing an ordinary, plebeian transport service, albeit that honor may come with lower profit margins. Over the road truckers don't sort through our packages in order to build dossiers about what we buy, nor do they insert GPS trackers into packages in order to see where they are going. We wouldn't stand for them trying to monetize the delivery service they are already being paid to provide. We should expect no less from Internet Service Providers.

    4. Re:Major Loss for Internet Freedom by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      and by "expand, innovate, etc." you actually mean "stagnate, rent-seek, collude, and obstruct."

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  3. Subject of Comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm happier to see that this fellow has more integrity than most thought he'd have, with him being a former lobbyist for these cable companies.

  4. They're going to do it anyway... by slfnflctd · · Score: 1

    ...in fact, there are some pretty clear indicators they already are (see: Netflix). They're playing shell games and trying to obfuscate it, but it's happening. I have no idea how enforceable this will be-- my gut tells me not very.

  5. Innovation by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm trying hard to think no of anything even marginally resembling an innovation which has come from Comcast - but I'm drawing a blank. So I can't see that having it their own way up until now has resulted in what they claim will be stifled by these rules.

    On a side note: Tom Wheeler, I think many of us were wrong about you. Thank you!

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Innovation by wiggles · · Score: 4, Funny

      They've had lots of innovation!

      They figured out:

      * data caps

      * Double charging for the same service

      * Outsourced customer service to lowest bidder

      * Customer "retention"

    2. Re:Innovation by Berkyjay · · Score: 1

      Come on! You've got to give them credit for the innovations they've made to suck money from our wallets.

    3. Re:Innovation by Lendrick · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Furthermore, I can't imagine any "innovations" that are good for the consumer coming out of all this. All Comcast and Time Warner are doing is "innovating" ways to force people to spend more money even though they're already paying ten times what the service is actually worth.

      What we really need is a national law that outlaws local internet franchise agreements and prevents states and localities from outlawing municipal broadband. I'm lucky enough to live an in area with multiple ISPs, and (surprise surprise) nobody here has implemented data caps. I don't think capitalism is a perfect solution to all of our problems, but it does seem to work reasonably well for keeping internet prices under control.

    4. Re:Innovation by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm trying hard to think no of anything even marginally resembling an innovation which has come from Comcast - but I'm drawing a blank.

      You got a cheap +5 there, because Comcast is an easy target, but let me play devil's advocate and give you two things they've done right:

      1. They had IPv6 for residential customers years before any other major ISP.
      2. They actually invest money in their infrastructure, even in markets where they face no meaningful competition, unlike the asshats at Time Warner Cable. TWC left my hometown to rot on the vine; we didn't see DOCSIS 3.0 until two or three years ago and to this day still have speed/capacity issues at peak times. Go 20 miles to our immediate South, into Comcast territory, and you can get three digit speeds (we top out at 50mbit/s) that are actually consistently delivered to you.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    5. Re:Innovation by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Don't forget "charging more for Internet Alone than Internet+TV to discourage people from cutting the cord or from getting TV service from another provider like DirecTV."

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    6. Re:Innovation by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      I agree with you on both points (#1 wholeheartedly, #2 less so)... but neither one qualifies as "innovation".

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    7. Re:Innovation by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      If it's innovation for the sake of innovation you're after, well, one word: Cablelabs.

      That's not Comcast specifically, but they're a major player in Cablelabs, and in any event they probably don't see it as their job to "innovate." Verizon Wireless didn't create LTE but they sure had it deployed faster than anyone else. The same with Comcast; they were way ahead of their peers when it came to IPv6 and DOCSIS 3 deployments.

      None of this is to say they don't suck donkey balls, but even a broken clock is right twice a day..... :)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    8. Re:Innovation by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      They've had lots of innovation!

      You forgot the innovation where they make the most recent episode of a TV show on OnDemand expire the same day you're watching it, so if you're just starting a series, you'll either have to binge watch or pay to see the most recent episodes later.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    9. Re:Innovation by pak9rabid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Don't forget terminating peoples' BitTorrent connections prematurely by injecting RST packets.

    10. Re:Innovation by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      They really pushed high speed internet in the US. I was one of the first people in the country, outside of academia, who had "high speed" internet. It was because Comcast was rolling out "comcast @home" back in the late 90s. It was friekin' awesome and I loved that company for a decade as a result. You could call them and get a static IP address, and talk nerdy with the people who ran their network. Ahhh... the good old days *sniff*.

    11. Re:Innovation by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      (surprise surprise) nobody here has implemented data caps.

      Prohibiting people from running servers is practically the same thing as data caps.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    12. Re:Innovation by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      I agree. I had shitty local ISPs in my small home town. Even the cable internet was terrible. I moved to a Comcast territory and it was night and day. 10x faster for 1/2 the price. And it was extremely reliable. I moved out of Comcast Territory and the regional cable provider was again god awful and then moved again into a DSL territory and it was even worse.

      The most reliable and lowest latency network I've ever had is Comcast. I have a really hard time hating on them.

    13. Re:Innovation by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Their innovations consist of ways to extract more money from their subscribers without actually delivering better service. They've also innovated in the ways they obstruct any and all competition from giving their subscribers any other options.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  6. Neutrality fee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm sure Comcast will be fine with it once they figure out an appropriate "Neutrality Fee" to add to everyone's bill, and they can explain how these government regulations hurt the consumer so much by forcing them to maintain these expensive policies.

  7. No Racist Internet by zenlessyank · · Score: 1

    So you are saying they won't judge my bits by the slant of their font?? All oppressed bits rejoice!!! You are free!!!

  8. Lose-lose proposition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This still makes the internet more like the networks before it, with central political influence deciding what can and can't be done. Network operators will find ways around regulations for themselves, and use the regulations to keep out competitors. The internet loses no matter how you swing on the topic of net neutrality. It may lose less this way, but it still loses. Bring on the clowns, please.

    1. Re: Lose-lose proposition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what would be wrong with that? We need an authority to decide what can and can not be said and done, and to punish transgressors. We Europeans know that people need purpose and guidance. Only a strong centralized authority - like the European Commission - can provide that. And it must happen. It will happen. Whether you like it or not.

    2. Re: Lose-lose proposition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not the sad clowns...

  9. How will it impede innovation ATT/Verizon? by DatbeDank · · Score: 1

    I would love for someone during these hearings to ask the lobbyists for these telecom companies how restricting access to every service except the ones that pay will impede innovation. I could use some amusement.

    1. Re:How will it impede innovation ATT/Verizon? by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      My experience with anti-net-neutrality argument breaks into two pieces.

      1)- The principle that the network is owned by the telecoms, and, as their property, they should be free to do as they wish.
      2)- The practical idea that telecoms will have to greatly increase costs to cover all the bandwidth (or even, that they will do so out of spite).

      Any arguments besides these two are generally shills. I've talked with people in real life who honestly hold to one of those two reasons, or both.

      I find (1) somewhat compelling, but not enough. Not only was there a lot of tax dollars involved in building the infrastructures, it creates an endless profit pool for a rather arbitrary middleman who is providing a utility. If your electrical devices had to communicate upstream what they were (and couldn't lie about it), you can bet that we'd have had this conversation about each and every device in your home, regardless of how much electricity drawn. Because why not profit where you can, if nothing stops you? We have absolutely no reason to believe that this wouldn't be used to choke the internet except for a few approved companies. If you came up with a good peer to peer solution, then the network owners AND the company you are competing with would have every motivation to stop you in your tracks- and that's to say nothing of the effect it would have on new companies, much less technical ideas.

      I find (2) to be absolutely ludicrous. Why would the company act against its own self interest? Is internet bandwidth SO undersold that caps would be both inevitable and very low? If that's the case, frankly, fine. If the true cost of good internet is X, then we will definitely have X extracted from us, one way or the other. Better the solution that doesn't break literally everything.

  10. Now get rid of the data "cap" scams by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's some "innovation" we don't need. Does the data cap counter net neutrality, as you're being penalized for high bandwidth applications?

  11. Unhappy spies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AT&T Inc., Verizon Communications Inc. and Comcast Corp.

    Of those three, only Comcast hasn't been revealed as a spy for the US Government. It is merely the worst rated company of all time for customer service.

    Got math?

  12. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by StormReaver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can not identify an argument for "net neutrality", that would not also not apply to attempts to prioritize â" such as by designating traffic lanes for them â" buses, bicycles, cars with electronic toll-payment transponders, and even for emergency vehicles.

    Perhaps this will help:

    I can not identify an argument for "apples" that would not also not apply to "oranges."

    Hope that helps clarify it a bit.

  13. The Two Lanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not difficult to work out. If you have a company whose job is road maintenance, say they successfully argue that certain people need to cover the distance quicker. These people would pay extra for the privilege of faster transit, and after all, everyone else still has the original road.

    Only in time, the original road is neglected, it becomes full of pot holes. If any expansion is made, it's made to the faster road, since that makes more money. So as the weeks pass, the original road falls into worse condition, unable to cope with the volume of traffic which is always growing. If anyone complains, then they are just told to pay for the faster lane.

    Eventually the original road is barely navigable, and anyone wanting to travel is forced to pay the extra for the toll road. Eventually, the original road closes. Before long, an idea is floated for a new super-fast road...

    1. Re:The Two Lanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's not difficult to work out. If you have a company whose job is road maintenance, say they successfully argue that certain people need to cover the distance quicker. These people would pay extra for the privilege of faster transit, and after all, everyone else still has the original road."

      Sounds like EZPass Express!

    2. Re:The Two Lanes by Qzukk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      everyone else still has the original road

      That's the first lie right there. The first thing they do is fence off the leftmost lane to make the toll lane, which of course needs its own shoulder in case someone breaks down, so better fence off a second lane too. Now, the non paying traffic that was packed in a 4 lane freeway is absolutely crammed into two lanes, or at best mushed into three skinny lanes. Unless, of course, the driver pays to drive in that nice wide, fast lane.

      But here's the difference between toll lanes and the internet: I get to choose if I want to suffer in the slow lane on the highway or pay the $1.30 to get in the toll lane.

      On the internet, these decisions are made for me. For instance, maybe Bing paid $50 million so that anyone going to bing.com gets to take the fast lane. The choice of what quality I get isn't mine, either I go where Comcast tells me I can go quickly, or I go where I want and suffer.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    3. Re:The Two Lanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This sounds exactly like I-405 in Seattle.

    4. Re:The Two Lanes by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      That's the first lie right there. The first thing they do is fence off the leftmost lane to make the toll lane, which of course needs its own shoulder in case someone breaks down, so better fence off a second lane too. Now, the non paying traffic that was packed in a 4 lane freeway is absolutely crammed into two lanes, or at best mushed into three skinny lanes. Unless, of course, the driver pays to drive in that nice wide, fast lane.

      I agree with you, but there's also the concern that the government will go with the London model and turn some of the lanes into bus lanes... which are less than 1% utilized, but have to be there anyway. Except, I can't actually imagine how that would work with the internets. That already kind of exists, in private government links, but nobody is talking about forcing people to open their private links for internet carrier traffic so that seems fairly irrelevant.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:The Two Lanes by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      This is actually happening. Are you familiar with the ez-pass express lanes? The government can't afford to build a highway, so they let a private company build it and charge for its use. I find this frightening.

    6. Re:The Two Lanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the internet, these decisions are made for me. For instance, maybe Bing paid $50 million so that anyone going to bing.com gets to take the fast lane.

      IMHO that would be totally OK if the ISPs customers paid e.g. for a 1Mbps connection, but were hooked up at 100Mbps, and bing, youtube or netflic could pay to use the "spare" bandwidth. The schemes comcast etc. enforce reduce the bandwidth between their customers and the sites their customers use below the bandwidth that's already been paid for, which is entirely unacceptable imho.

    7. Re:The Two Lanes by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Except in this case, the roads are virtually free and the toll booths costs more.

  14. Who would have thought... by Faw · · Score: 1

    ...that the dingo would not eat the baby.

  15. It's all so confusing... by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

    Trying to remember who is head of the FCC and who runs the cable company lobby. They keep switching back and forth...

    1. Re:It's all so confusing... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 4, Informative

      In this case, the head of the FCC was a member of a cable company lobbying group and was widely expected to be yet another pro-cable company shill. Except, Tom Wheeler apparently missed the memo and was mistakenly handed one that said "protect the consumers" instead. His run as head of the FCC has been surprisingly fantastic and I hope he continues on to give the cable companies headaches for years to come.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    2. Re:It's all so confusing... by Andrio · · Score: 2

      John Oliver did a show last year where he mentioned that Tom Wheeler, head of the FCC, was a former telecom lobbyist. He then said that it was like hiring a dingo to watch over your baby.

      Tom Wheeler responded by saying he was not a dingo.

      I guess he was speaking metaphorically and literally when he said that.

      --
      The Internet King? I wonder if he could provide faster nudity.
    3. Re:It's all so confusing... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 4, Informative

      I remember that one. Given Wheeler's background and the history of FCC chiefs in general, it wasn't unrealistic to assume that he would be a horrible FCC chief who would only think of what the industry wanted. A lot of people are very happy that he's not a dingo. (Well, except for the cable companies but I don't care about them!)

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    4. Re:It's all so confusing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He had a "come to jesus" moment and remembered the consumer. Also, in a way his stance makes sense - he represented the industry as a whole, and all the smaller players would prefer everyone play by the same rules.

    5. Re:It's all so confusing... by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      And the former FCC chairman took over Wheelers role as head of the cable company lobby.

  16. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 2

    "Only vehicles built by Ford can drive in this neighborhood."

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  17. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can not identify an argument for "net neutrality", that would not also not apply to attempts to prioritize — such as by designating traffic lanes for them — buses, bicycles, cars with electronic toll-payment transponders, and even for emergency vehicles.

    Except for the difference in footprint and the character of the purpose.

    I mean, really, if you can come up with a use scenario where a hospital sending remote radiologist data has a priority over some ISP's traffic, you're more than welcome to show it.

    Of course, in those cases, they CAN pay for a dedicated line with guaranteed bandwidth, so...

    In fact, I suspect strongly, that, had the Internet-service provision been in government's hands already, the same people arguing for "net neutrality" today, would've been arguing for "sensible measures" to prioritize "special" traffic.

    Suspect all you want, it won't make them a reality.

    And vice versa — had private corporations been in charge of streets and highways, their attempts at prioritization would've attracted the same criticism currently hitting the ISPs.

    Some neutralities are more neutral than others...

    Different things are different. Discernment is very important. Pizza Hut and Dominos delivery vehicles are not the same as Ambulances and Fire Engines. Even the bus companies, they don't get more money from their bus lanes, it's about reducing congestion and the costs of individual vehicles, not a profit scheme.

    Even toll payments, it's about processing, not profiteering.

    The same cannot be said for what the companies in these cases want.

  18. Re: Bye bye Amazon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What? Is this what it has come to people?

  19. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by tobiasly · · Score: 2

    favoring some types of web traffic over others

    I can not identify an argument for "net neutrality", that would not also not apply to attempts to prioritize — such as by designating traffic lanes for them — buses, bicycles, cars with electronic toll-payment transponders, and even for emergency vehicles.

    In fact, I suspect strongly, that, had the Internet-service provision been in government's hands already, the same people arguing for "net neutrality" today, would've been arguing for "sensible measures" to prioritize "special" traffic.

    And vice versa — had private corporations been in charge of streets and highways, their attempts at prioritization would've attracted the same criticism currently hitting the ISPs.

    Some neutralities are more neutral than others...

    I've always viewed the entire net neutrality debate as a (hopefully) temporary sideshow while/until we fix the larger problem of lack of competition. The only reason (e.g.) Comcast is able to pull the shenanigans that they are is because we can't go anywhere else. Otherwise, if an ISP decided to slow down Netflix and try to extort money from them, their customers would just leave.

  20. Because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everything below is wrong:

    Because email needs to go as fast as video. Or said another say, video needs to go as slow as email.
    Because co-location is unfair.
    Because charging more for bigger pipes is unfair.
    Because charging more for better service is unfair.
    Because charging less (or nothing) to a business partner is unfair.
    Because they can't throttle my connection if they don't know what the content is.
    Now that net neutrality is the law, all internet traffic will be fast.

    1. Re:Because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hard to say if you're trying to use sarcasm or not. It kind of sounds like it, but then you throw this in there:

      video needs to go as slow as email.

      Once Republicans repeal neutrality, Comcast will make sure all your video goes as slow as email (except, of course, for Hulu, which they own).

  21. Re:Bye bye Amazon by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

    You just made the most ridiculous comment yet.
    How does it feel?

    --
    We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
  22. well actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    actually, given that most people don't care about bandwidth as much as they care about the image and sound quality while streaming video, it actually does prevent them from contracting with the large video streaming services to negotiate bandwidth for variable rate compression. As those standards are patent encumbered and the video providers get something out of them, they clearly break the net neutrality regulations.

  23. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by BeemanIT · · Score: 1

    I agree, one thing people forget about are protocols such as VOIP which kind of needs to have a priority over other protocols. It's kind of the reason MPLS has been developed because some protocols need to be a bit more real-time than others. It's kind of a catch-22 situation. 1. We don't want ISPs to be preventing specific traffic for their own greedy purposes. 2. As technology progresses, there maybe more protocols that need real time "priority" over others, should these protocols be slowed or placed on the same priority as everything else. Life's just not fair, nor should we treat every protocol the same.

  24. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think you are confusing net neutrality with something else. Net neutrality is requiring the connection providers to treat all traffic of the same type (video is the most common example) the same.

  25. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You're confusing traffic shaping with prioritization.

    Doing something like prioritizing VOIP packets over FTP, for instance, is perfectly acceptable, because the reason for doing it is that VOIP traffic is much more affected by latency than FTP. If I'm trying to talk via VOIP at the same time I'm FTPing a large file, and the network hits congestion, I'm generally much better off having the FTP transfer slow down than I am having my VOIP throughput degrade. It's still a neutral network because it doesn't care what VOIP service I use, as long as it's standard VOIP traffic. This is a "Cars with 4 people/buses/etc can use the left lane during rush hour, everyone else has to use the right 3 lanes" situation.

    What we're talking about is something like Comcast or AT&T trying to make _their_ Streaming Video/VOIP/FTP service work better than Netflix or whomever, by deliberately making Netflix worse, or forcing Netflix to pay extra to not get degraded. They can do this in a variety of ways, including throttling any Netflix connection, while exempting their own, or putting in Data Caps that apply to Netflix traffic, but not to their own streaming service. This is a "GM owns this toll road, so the charge for GM vehicles is $1.00, but the charge for Ford vehicles is $10.00" situation, and that's what you can't do according to Net Neutrality.

  26. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by anegg · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only way I can think of addressing the problem of a lack of competition in the last mile of communications services is for local governments to provide the communications service as a basic utility, the same as water, sewer, trash pickup. Or maybe its provided by a utility provider like electricity or gas. Then companies like Comcast don't need to be a "monopoly" cable provider for a town or county; other companies like Verizon don't need to be a "monopoly" telephony provider either - anyone who wants to provide services (any data service, including telephony data and what we now thing of as cable television service data) can, with the services riding over the utility communications network. Perhaps that is what we are backing into, with ISPs being declared to be the utilities that they so obviously seem to be. Couple that with VoIP telephone services being broken free from cable companies and RBOCs, and the move to "cut the cord" with A/V entertainment services, and pretty soon there aren't any government-protected monopolies for phone and cable... just a basic communications utility provide by or on behalf of the local government, and a multitude of service providers, all competing openly with one another.

  27. Great. 802.1p is now illegal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone better turn off 802.1p tags. They are now criminal.

  28. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by chill · · Score: 1

    No. Think of it more along the lines of not just setting dedicated lanes for buses and bicycles, but only for COMCAST buses and bicycles -- unless you paid an extra toll.

    Comcast and others did this with VoIP in the past. They prioritized their VoIP traffic while de-prioritizing competitorVoIP traffic.

    It not only is perfectly legal now, but essential to business that ISPs prioritize traffic by traffic type -- called Quality of Service (QoS).

    What they want to do is not by TYPE but by DESTINATION and OWNER. This allows them to essentially tax competitors to services they offer directly, like Vonage and VoIP or Netflix and streaming video.

    It is a protection racket, pure and simple.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  29. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by will_die · · Score: 1

    It is not because VOIP is more affected by latency it is because VOIP is singled out as something that is allowed to ignore the ban on paid prioritization. Under the FCC rules services that don't full Internet services are not affect by the net neutrality ruling.
    So ISPs can offer services that don't provide full internet services(health monitoring, VOIP) and for an additional cost give those priority over all net neutrality traffic.

  30. zero rating / tmobile binge on by Wycliffe · · Score: 2

    How does the decision affect zero rating and stuff like tmobile's binge on? Although I'm completely in support of net neutrality and all companies should be treated the same, I do support the idea of having different types of traffic. For instance making bittorent traffic lower priority than realtime streaming. This should preferably be controlled by the consumer though where they get some benefit for sending less traffic over the fast lane.

    1. Re:zero rating / tmobile binge on by ItsJustAPseudonym · · Score: 1

      I do support the idea of having different types of traffic. For instance making bittorent traffic lower priority than realtime streaming.

      So does Tom Wheeler. What you are describing is "traffic shaping", where different KINDS of traffic can have different priorities. Net neutrality allows that. What it doesn't allow is prioritization of Comcast's streaming traffic over somebody else's streaming traffic.

  31. A short history by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The law says you can't rape customers up the ass then charge them for it."
    "YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT TO DO!"
    "We'll see you in court."

    "Indeed, the law says you can't rape customers up the ass and charge them for it."
    "YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT TO DO! YOU'RE OPPRESSING US!"
    "We CAN tell you what to do"
    "WE'RE GOING TO APPEAL!"

    "You can't rape customers up the ass and charge them for it."
    "YOU'RE ALL AGAINST US! WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THE LAWS CHANGED WHILE WE APPEAL THIS TO GET ANOTHER FIVE YEARS OF RAPING PEOPLE UP THE ASS WITHOUT YOU STOPPING US!"

    We'll see how it goes from there.

  32. Fine ... fine.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're not a dingo, Mr. Wheeler

  33. Re: Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    Well let's start with your faulty premise: A car is the same as a bus or bicycle. A bicycle isn't the same as a car if you haven't noticed. What is the difference between a video packet from Netflix and a video packet from Amazon or any packet? There shouldn't be any difference really but Comcast would like to charge Netflix and Amazon more to move a packet to their customer

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  34. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can not identify an argument for "net neutrality", that would not also not apply to attempts to prioritize — such as by designating traffic lanes for hem — buses [nyc.gov], bicycles, cars with electronic toll-payment transponders [fox5dc.com], and even for emergency vehicles.

    Uh yeah. Funny thing though, apparently you missed where all of the drivers flipped their shit over losing lanes to buses and bikers, much like the people on the internet flipped their shit over losing bandwidth to whatever special interests paid Comcast. So you're absolutely right when you say "had private corporations been in charge of streets and highways, their attempts at prioritization would've attracted the same criticism currently hitting the ISPs." because I can point to the criticism that happened, from people who didn't care WHO was fucking up their morning commute, they only care that it was fucked.

    But of course, you're ABSOLUTELY FINE with Comcast fucking your shit up by taking bandwidth you use away to make special lanes for services you don't care about. For you, it doesn't matter how bad things get, it only becomes a problem when the government is the one making it worse.

  35. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by sjames · · Score: 1

    Imagine if there were lanes you could only use if you were going to see a movie at a theater that paid the DOT under the table. Otherwise, only the bike lane is available for going to a movie. That's the internet without neutrality. Fair queuing and prioritizing at the individual household level based on type of service is fine under net neutrality.

  36. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    one thing people forget about are protocols such as VOIP which kind of needs to have a priority over other protocols.

    But that isn't what we got. Instead history demonstrates degradation of Vonage by Comcast because it competed with Comcast's own "triple play" (this was mysteriously resolved after a Comcast-Vonage agreement). Comcast's own VOIP service was prioritized over all other services, including competing VOIP services.

  37. Net neutrality is not neutral by mveloso · · Score: 2

    I know it's popular because the internets want to be free, but I'd ask everyone to actually read the "net neutrality" regulations yourself. It's not about net neutrality per se, it's about something completely different.

    For example, all the peering agreements suddenly come under FCC jurisdiction. Do asymmetric traffic charges count as "favoritism?" Do you even have any understanding of what that means?

    The FCC rule means that everything internet-related comes under their jurisdiction.

    What this means, in short, is your rates will go up...forever.

    1. Re:Net neutrality is not neutral by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I trust the FCC more than I trust Comcast, so for me this is a win.

  38. Net neutrality is good for the people. by GoodNewsJimDotCom · · Score: 1

    Net Neutrality means ISPs can't legally extort money from websites. It is obvious that Net Neutrality is right, but ISPs are so greedy that they want to extort people!

  39. Does this mean ... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... my broadband provider is going to have to stop blocking access to GOP websites?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  40. Re: Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    There shouldn't be any difference really but Comcast would like to charge Netflix and Amazon more to move a packet to their customer

    There IS a difference, we want them to pretend that there isn't because that ensures fair competition. The ISPs do have to pay for peering, and they have to pay more if they want to deliver packets from Netflix (if not Amazon) in a timely fashion because Netflix is not spectacularly well-peered. Netflix's proposed solution to this problem is to host their CDN for them, which may or may not be reasonable depending on the situation vis-a-vis infrastructure and customer demand.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  41. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

    Net-neutrality supporters argue against discrimination based on packet-contents and origination, not the network gear, that generated them.

    You're not quite getting the picture I intended to paint, here. I should have put a little more detail in.

    Most of these broadband ISPs have their own services, TV being the big one, that they want to prioritize over the competition like Hulu or Netflix. Net Neutrality is not about QoS, it's about preventing the barrier-to-entry from being artificially risen. To correct your metaphor you'd need to distinguish the vehicles on the road by brand, not by their capabilities.

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  42. Re:BULL by LiENUS · · Score: 1

    No authority to regulate the internet other than their authority to regulate communication and information services passed by congress....

  43. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by mi · · Score: 0, Troll

    To correct your metaphor you'd need to distinguish the vehicles on the road by brand, not by their capabilities.

    The government, that maintains the roads, gives priority to the buses, which it also runs, how is that? For another, the government, which wants everybody to pay tolls electronically (to make it easier to track citizens' movements), gives priority to cars that have E-ZPass installed.

    The problem with Internet Service Provision is lack of competition. Adding more and more regulation only helps the incumbents ward off would-be challengers.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  44. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    Confusion will set in here because Fire_Wraith and will_die are using the term "VOIP" differently. Fire_Wraith, you used VOIP as an example of a network protocol for which low latency is important, and traffic shaping is legitimate and neutral. Will_die, you used VOIP as an example of a special service paid for separately, that happens to be routed over the internet, that is not necessarily part of the customer's internet service.

    If one replaces "VOIP" in Fire_Wraith's email with "Skype" or "Mumble" or "RTSP" then one would be correct in saying that those protocols really are more affected by latency, and Fire_Wraith's point still applies.

  45. They'll keep trying by emaname · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The broadband companies are going to keep trying until they get the answer they want. Then once they do, there will be no going back.

    Personally I feel it's just a matter of time before they monetize everything on the internet.

    This isn't a great comparison, but I remember cable TV was promoted as "commercial free TV." ie, You could watch TV without commercials.

    Yeah... well... that worked out great.

    --
    An effective "democracy" creates the illusion the people have a say in their government.
  46. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

    Net-neutrality supporters argue against discrimination based on packet-contents...

    A few do, but they shouldn't. Network neutrality does not preclude legitimate QoS based on type of data or protocol.

    and origination

    This part you have correct.

    Giving priority to Ford-made buses over Ford-made sedans would've been wrong in their opinion.

    Nope, that would be fine. Just like normal QoS prioritizing real-time protocols (e.g. VoIP) over bulk transfer protocols (e.g. BitTorrent) would be fine.

  47. Get ready for more data caps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This does nothing to stop ISPs from charging you by the amount of data being used. You'll be paying 2x the current cost for unlimited bandwidth or you can subscribe to the Cable TV service if you want a bread on that. They will get their money one way or another.

  48. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Adding more and more regulation only helps the incumbents ward off would-be challengers

    Another libertarian with poor comprehension.

    ATT owns the utility poles in question, and they are arguing that Louisville cannot require them to share with Google.

    The law they are challenging makes it easier---both for incumbents entering the market and for existing utilities performing maintenance.

    They are willing to handicap themselves with higher maintenance costs in order to keep Google out.

    For another, the government, which wants everybody to pay tolls electronically (to make it easier to track citizens' movements [aclu.org]), gives priority to cars that have E-ZPass installed.

    The idea that they "give priority" to EZ-Pass users is laughable. EZ-Pass is an automated system, so of course it's far faster and cheaper than manned toll booths.

    I see at least 3-4 cars pass move through an EZ-Pass lane for each car that moves through a cash lane on my commute.

    And my EZ-Pass lanes are the slower ones where you have to stop and let it raise the arm. There are EZ-Pass lanes where you just slow down to 30 MPH so it can read your device (and they scan license plates if cheaters drive through without passes).

  49. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Palinchron · · Score: 1

    Doing something like prioritizing VOIP packets over FTP, for instance, is perfectly acceptable,

    Is it? I'm not sure I agree.

    If my connection is saturated while I am using both VOIP and FTP, it is entirely acceptable to me that my ISP prioritizes my VOIP traffic over my FTP traffic.

    If my ISP's total uplink connection is saturated (whether or not this should happen is another discussion), it is entirely acceptable to me that the ISP throttles its users that are currently using the highest amounts of bandwidth. Ideally, they throttle every user using more than X amounts of bandwidth down to X, where X is the highest number that they can sustain; and not do anything for all the users using less than X. This done without looking at the type of traffic of the different users, only the total bandwidth use. Of course, within the scope of a given user's such-throttled bandwidth, that's user's VOIP traffic may be prioritized over that user's FTP traffic, per the above clause.

    But it is not acceptable to me if your VOIP traffic is prioritized over my FTP traffic independent of our total bandwidth usages. If I am trying to use 100 Mbit/s of FTP and you are trying to use 100 Mbit/s of VOIP and the ISP can only sustain 120 Mbit/s total, then it can throttle us both down to 60 Mbit/s, but it must not throttle me down to 20 Mbit/s instead because VOIP outprioritizes FTP. And when I am trying to use 50 Mbit/s with my FTP and you are trying to use 100 Mbit/s with your VOIP, then you go down to 70 Mbit/s, while my bandwidth stays intact.

    --
    The lesson here is that a sufficiently large corporation is indistinguishable from government. --ultranova
  50. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by EndlessNameless · · Score: 1

    You say you want to have your FTP packets dropped so that your VoIP packets get through, but what you really mean is that you want my FTP packets to be dropped so that your VoIP packets get through. And that's not acceptable

    Actually, it is the way things should work.

    If FTP packets are dropped, they will be retransmitted. The file transfer will take longer, but it will still work unless the congestion is really, really bad.

    Due to the nature of human auditory processing, however, you cannot just resend VoIP packets a half second later and expect everything to work. The typical use case implies a requirement for timely delivery.

    A well-managed network should be able to route both VoIP and FTP in a way that prevents either protocol from affecting the network, in part because of QoS/DCSP rules.

    But if things do slow down a bit, the VoIP users need their full 64 kbps a lot more than FTP users need an extra 64 kbps. FTP can slow down and speed up quite easily; VoIP can't.

    --

    ---
    According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
  51. Does the court suggest the telcos can try again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    “It is not our duty to consider novel arguments a [party] could have made but did not.”

    Perhaps there is another line of argument that the court thinks might get a different result.

    In the last round, they did hint that the FCC try again with Title II and perhaps prevail.
    They did switch to Title II and did prevail here.
    The issue now is how to fine tune what is reasonable to do with Title II.
    Perhaps there is something about the current use of Title II that the court feels is wrong, but nobody complained?

    So many things to try, so little time to sell. It must be a great day to be a telco lawyer.

  52. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

    The government, that maintains the roads, gives priority to the buses, which it also runs, how is that?

    A little closer but still not the same. If the gov't gave priority in such a way that only one manufacturer could build those buses your metaphor would be in better shape.

    The problem with Internet Service Provision is lack of competition.

    I agree, specifically with this statement. I feel like this whole system would at least have the protection of "fear of losing customers" to keep everybody honest.

    Adding more and more regulation only helps the incumbents ward off would-be challengers.

    I don't think your example supports your point. In fact I think it does the opposite.

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  53. Excellent, hope it holds up. by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 1

    I pay my ISP for a pipe. I request what I want through that pipe and expect my ISP to deliver it without prejudice.

    If I wanted them to decide what gets priority I would subscribe to fucking television.

  54. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take a page from the regulations books of other countries: If a network operator has a market share exceeding 50% in a particular market, or if there are fewer than three operators in that market, then the easements (that no ISP can do without) require that the operator offer wholesale services to all competing businesses at regulated prices.

  55. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Bengie · · Score: 1

    Nah, the new thing is a "zero rating" for Ford.

  56. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by mi · · Score: 1

    If the gov't gave priority in such a way that only one manufacturer could build those buses your metaphor would be in better shape.

    You keep repeating this meaningless "manufacturer" thing — there is no "manufacturer" of Internet packets. Net neutrality tries to combat packet-discrimination based on origin (who sent this?) and contents (what are the originating and destination ports, what's inside — when "deep" inspection is enabled).

    In case of roads, NY city's prioritizing of city buses is a perfectly apt analogy. But, because they are government owned, Slashdot's dominant Statists are cool.

    I don't think your example supports your point. In fact I think it does the opposite.

    In my example, AT&T is suing the town over special treatment allowing Google to complying with the regulatory requirements AT&T had to comply with. They may even have a point. But it is an example of how companies are forced — by the regulations — to compete for favors of government and judges, rather than those of customers.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  57. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

    You keep repeating this meaningless "manufacturer" thing â" there is no "manufacturer" of Internet packets.

    Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, Vimeo, iTunes, Amazon, etc.

    In case of roads, NY city's prioritizing of city buses is a perfectly apt analogy.

    As I said, it is close, but it fails to pick up the very nuance that brought this legislation up in the first place.

    But it is an example of how companies are forced â" by the regulations â" to compete for favors of government and judges, rather than those of customers.

    It is in the customers' best interests to have competition in the space.

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  58. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by mi · · Score: 1

    Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, Vimeo, iTunes, Amazon, etc.

    These are all sources of information, rather than manufacturers.

    As I said, it is close, but it fails to pick up the very nuance that brought this legislation up in the first place.

    There is no "nuance". We have owners of networks being ordered, what they can and can not do with their own equipment, that's all. The sole justification is "The Greater Good", property rights be damned.

    I'm still waiting to hear an argument for "net neutrality", that would can not also be used to argue against special traffic lanes for city buses and cars with E-ZPass.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  59. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

    These are all sources of information, rather than manufacturers.

    Could you please explain the distinction in this context? As long as you're understanding that the information is being categorized by Netflix, Youtube, etc, then we're close enough to being on the same page that your argument doesn't really act as a rebuttal.

    There is no "nuance".

    Well, no, you're just not seeing it. I'm not really seeing where the break in our communication is.

    I'm still waiting to hear an argument for "net neutrality", that would can not also be used to argue against special traffic lanes for city buses and cars with E-ZPass.

    E-Z Pass does not distinguish by manufacturer.

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  60. Re:BULL by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    They have authority over telecommunications networks, and the Internet runs on those networks.

    Get over it, astroturfer.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  61. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    Well, there's a difference between QoS rules for all streaming video versus file transfers, and QoS rules for streaming video from provider X because they paid our ransom^W access fee to serve content to our subscribers that are already paying us for the same bandwidth.

    It's rent seeking if not racketeering.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  62. Re:Bye bye Amazon by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    Are you really this stupid, or did Verizon pay you to spew this nonsense?

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  63. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Bengie · · Score: 1

    Or just use one of the several AQMs that can evenly distribute bandwidth while keeping latency, loss, and jitter to almost 0.

  64. Re: Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    The ISPs do have to pay for peering, and they have to pay more if they want to deliver packets from Netflix (if not Amazon) in a timely fashion because Netflix is not spectacularly well-peered. Netflix's proposed solution to this problem is to host their CDN for them, which may or may not be reasonable depending on the situation vis-a-vis infrastructure and customer demand.

    Bahahaha. You realize that a customer tested out Comcast's excuse and found it to be hogwash. He ran Netflix through a VPN and it was actually faster. So let's think about what Comcast says: Netflix --> {internet} -->Comcast -->Customer was slow because Netflix is not well peered but Netflix --> {internet} -->VPN --> {internet} -->Comcast --> Customer is well peered and thus faster. So unless more hops and through a VPN somehow makes it more well peered. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  65. Re: Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles by Bengie · · Score: 1

    Even more interesting is back during the dispute, Comcast stated they already paid for and setup all of the peering hardware, but refused to turn it on for over a year. They're willing to pay for the upgrades, but refuse to use them in order to hold their customers hostage.