How Sony, Microsoft, and Other Gadget Makers Violate Federal Warranty Law (vice.com)

Reader citadrianne shares a Motherboard article: There are big "no trespassing" signs affixed to most of our electronics. If you own a gaming console, laptop, or computer, it's likely you've seen one of these warnings in the form of a sticker placed over a screw or a seam: "Warranty void if removed." In addition, big manufacturers such as Sony, Microsoft, and Apple explicitly note or imply in their official agreements that their year-long manufacturer warranties -- which entitle you to a replacement or repair if your device is defective -- are void if consumers attempt to repair their gadgets or take them to a third party repair professional. What almost no one knows is that these stickers and clauses are illegal under a federal law passed in 1975 called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act . To be clear, federal law says you can open your electronics without voiding the warranty, regardless of what the language of that warranty says.

Comments

warranty length

[greenfruitsalad]

the more annoying thing is, that for a device this expensive, the warranty is only 1 year long. apple even tried to bring that crap to EU. fortunately, apart from UK, the whole EU has 2 year warranty on everything.

Re:warranty length

[freeze128]

My Apple //e had a 90-day warranty. Ninety days. It has worked flawlessly for 30 years. I bet you won't be able to say the same thing about your modern electronics.

Re:warranty length

[jellomizer]

You must get bothered easily.
Being that most devices if they are to fail it would be within the first month of operation. That is why it is normal for companies when they get new servers they do a 48 hour burn in session to make sure the server survives the first 48 hours and after that chances are the server will last for the long time.

1 Year or 2 Year isn't really that big of a deal for electronics with little to no moving parts.

The fact that America says one year and the EU says 2, is just legal semantics

Re: warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Take your reliability engineering elsewhere. Science isn't welcome on Slashdot. We _will_ have an armchair lawyer discussion about warranties, though.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

By "apart from the UK", did you mean "apart from the UK, where it is 5 or 6 years"?

Re:warranty length

[fahrbot-bot]

My Apple //e had a 90-day warranty. Ninety days. It has worked flawlessly for 30 years. I bet you won't be able to say the same thing about your modern electronics.

I was born w/o any warranty and am still here 53 years later. Everything still works pretty well too. Lucky enough that the case hasn't ever had to be opened.

Re:warranty length

[tlhIngan]

the more annoying thing is, that for a device this expensive, the warranty is only 1 year long. apple even tried to bring that crap to EU. fortunately, apart from UK, the whole EU has 2 year warranty on everything.

And you didn't realize that EU citizens are paying for an extended warranty?

Apple's probably one of the best examples as their "EU Tax" is low - take the US model, add AppleCare (to satisfy EU warranty), add in the requisite VAT (20-25%) and convert to Euros, and you come out pretty close to the cost in Europe.

So if you hate 1 year warranties, when the Best Buy cashier asks "DO you want the extended warranty", say "Yes". In Europe, Australia, etc., guess what? You can't say no, you don't want the 2 year warranty, let me save the 10-20%.

Turns out everyone's really been factoring in the extended warranty into the price for Europe.

TINSTAAFL. In North America, they ask if you want the extended warranty. In Europe, Australia and other countries, they answered for you.

Oh, and yes, if you open stuff, it's fine. it's when you try to fix stuff you have problems. Warranty fraud is a huge thing, and you will see people try to claim "No, it wasn't submerged in water" even though it's clearly dripping water all over the counter.

It's a really big problem and as much as everyone would like to see more repairable stuff, the real problem is too many people just are not skilled enough. The good ones will just open it, see they can't fix it and put everything back. Most people bumble through things and make things worse

Even the law says that - if the damage can be traced to the failure, the warranty can be voided. For most devices, opening them and trying to screw around with stuff can be traced as the cause.

The problem is not the 1% of people who go to iFixit and get their replacement parts and tools, it's the 99% who don't and try to "fix" it but make things worse. Because the vast majority of those lack the skill, care, precision, tools, education, etc to not mess anything up. It's why iFixit can get all high and mighty about it, because they don't see the other end of it. Perhaps a stint at a retail customer service desk should help realize that people who use iFixit generally know what they're doing.

Re:warranty length

[serviscope_minor]

Apple's probably one of the best examples as their "EU Tax" is low - take the US model, add AppleCare (to satisfy EU warranty), add in the requisite VAT (20-25%) and convert to Euros, and you come out pretty close to the cost in Europe.

Just on a whim, I visited the various pages. In the US, the base model costs $649. In Germany, the base model, converted to dollars and with VAT removed, it costs $685. Applecare for 2 years adds $129.

It would seem that the european cost with a 2 year warranty is substantially less than the US one.

IOW, you are mistaken.

Re:warranty length

[TemporalBeing]

You must get bothered easily. Being that most devices if they are to fail it would be within the first month of operation. That is why it is normal for companies when they get new servers they do a 48 hour burn in session to make sure the server survives the first 48 hours and after that chances are the server will last for the long time.

1 Year or 2 Year isn't really that big of a deal for electronics with little to no moving parts.

The fact that America says one year and the EU says 2, is just legal semantics

Kind of...however, there's also been a very big attempt at designing things to fail just outside the warranty period - e.g. make sure it's good enough to get past the warranty then fail so that you have to buy another.

While I can't say it was purposeful, my Asus Transformer TF700 tablet kind of falls into that category. It worked well for the warranty period, but sometime after became susceptible to what seems heating issue that causes some of the solder to let go and therefore the non-moving components to break down. For a $500 tablet that is simply unacceptable.

Other examples are DVD players that had 90-day warranties, and would generally fail by 120 days - a very common thing 10 years ago and made me reluctant to buy *any* DVD players.

Such is the history of personal electronics in the last 20 years.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you're mistaken.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/extended-warranties/buying-guide.htm

"The median price paid for a plan was $123 for a major appliance and $37 for a small one"

$685 - $649 = $36

2.7% is substantially less?

Re: warranty length

[Luthair]

Probably came with a circuit diagram so you could repair it yourself

Re:warranty length

[bsolar]

Apple's probably one of the best examples as their "EU Tax" is low - take the US model, add AppleCare (to satisfy EU warranty), add in the requisite VAT (20-25%) and convert to Euros, and you come out pretty close to the cost in Europe.

You usually come out cheaper with EU model and no Apple Care. This is actually correct since Apple Care covers *more* than the mandatory 2 years EU warranty, so it makes sense for it to be more expensive.

Re:warranty length

[macs4all]

Kind of...however, there's also been a very big attempt at designing things to fail just outside the warranty period - e.g. make sure it's good enough to get past the warranty then fail so that you have to buy another.

Really? My "computer museum"/Junk Room is the final resting place of nearly a dozen Apple computers from my Apple ][+ on up, and I think only one of them are in a non-working state, despite most of them being over two decades old. I also have a 2005 G5 tower and 2013 MacBook Pro that are in 24/7/365 use. In fact, the 2013 MacBook Pro is my newest Mac. Oh, and my iPad 2 is also well over that year-long warranty, and it gets HEAVILY used every day.

So, speak for your Wintel crap. Apple stuff is made to last...

Re:warranty length

[Ecuador]

the more annoying thing is, that for a device this expensive, the warranty is only 1 year long. apple even tried to bring that crap to EU. fortunately, apart from UK, the whole EU has 2 year warranty on everything.

And you didn't realize that EU citizens are paying for an extended warranty?

Apple's probably one of the best examples as their "EU Tax" is low - take the US model, add AppleCare (to satisfy EU warranty), add in the requisite VAT (20-25%) and convert to Euros, and you come out pretty close to the cost in Europe.

No, in this case you are mistaken. For a few years Apple denied this second year of warranty in Europe and the prices were exactly the same as after they were forced to advertise and honor it. Nothing changed. This is because Apple prices have nothing to do with actual cost.

Now, for other manufacturers it might apply of course.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

It wouldn't even apply to other manufacturers. The "extended warranty" is a scam, a way to get more money while advertising a low price. If you have to include it, you don't overcharge for it since you still want to advertise a low price.

Re:warranty length

[Moridineas]

I just checked too, and I thought actually putting some numbers down would be informative, rather than just making statements without any backing data. What computer are you talking about that costs $649 baseline (I didn't see anything like that on a quick look on the Apple store).

Germany, Baseline Silver MacBook (Apple.com/de/): €1449
United States, Baseline Silver MacBook (Apple.com): $1299
UK, Baseline Silver Macbook (Apple.com/uk/): £1049 (a lot more flux than normal in this price, due to Brexit and unusually low USD.GBP exchange rates)

Cost of AppleCare = $129 for 3 years. Cost per year then is $43, so two years of warranty would be an added $86.

DE €1449 -> $1600. Minus 19% VAT = $1,344. Plus two years of AppleCare ($86) = $1430
UK £1049 -> $1395. Minus 20% VAT = $1162. Plus two years of AppleCare ($86) = $1248

US $1299. Plus full 3 years of AppleCare ($129) = $1428. Two dollars difference from what what I estimated as the DE price breakdown.

So the German price in Euros seems pretty darn close to me! Did I miss anything?

Re:warranty length

[Yvan256]

U.S.A. base model is $649 + $129 for two-years Applecare (to make it equal to the Germany warranty) vs Germany base model converted to dollars with VAT removed is $685.

I'm pretty sure 685 is substantially less than 778.

Re:warranty length

[gmack]

You must get bothered easily.
Being that most devices if they are to fail it would be within the first month of operation. That is why it is normal for companies when they get new servers they do a 48 hour burn in session to make sure the server survives the first 48 hours and after that chances are the server will last for the long time.

1 Year or 2 Year isn't really that big of a deal for electronics with little to no moving parts.

The fact that America says one year and the EU says 2, is just legal semantics

That's great for things that run in a controlled environment and for things you tend not to plug and unplug on a regular basis. Meanwhile a couple of weeks back a woman hands me a tablet repair and the micro USB port had worked loose and torn itself off the plastic ribbon cable. It took it 1.5 years to do that.

Re: warranty length

[Bing Tsher E]

Your newer Apple stuff is Wintel crap. Has been for years. I have 3 SE/30s and a Mac SE that all still work fine. The Powerbook 165c wa acting funny last time I tried to boot it, though.

Re: warranty length

[NormalVisual]

Schematics, theory of operation, and a fully commented ROM listing. The original IBM PC had the same info available in a manual that could be purchased separately.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

no here it is not....

Re:warranty length

[Actually, I do RTFA]

It's very disingenuous to use the median price for a class of product's warranty in a discussion about a specific product. At least, when you attempt to overrule the published warranty price for that specific product.

/. Requisite Car Analogy: The average price for a BWM 3 Series is like $20k. If I keep bringing that figure up in a conversation about new BWM 3 serieses, you'll look at me like I'm insane. That's because the subset of BWM 3 series members who are new have an average price double the mean of all BWM 3 series cars.

Re: warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I loved that IBM PC Technical Manual. I learned so much just reading through it.

Re:warranty length

[_xeno_]

I can see why.

My work MacBook Pro has crapped out entirely, and that was bought in August of last year. Its wifi support is flakey at best and as of today, it stopped booting. Well, sort of: it makes it past the part where you log in to FileVault and then goes to a black screen it never recovers from.

Given their most expensive laptop couldn't even make it a year before crapping out, I'm not surprised they don't want longer warranties.

Now to go through the incredibly annoy process of getting a laptop replaced through corporate IT... sigh.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

I have some issues.
They said tough.
But there did offer some cookies

Re:warranty length

[aicrules]

Please return in to original manufacturer.

Re:warranty length

[dgatwood]

That's great for things that run in a controlled environment and for things you tend not to plug and unplug on a regular basis.

No, it isn't even true in those situations. There are certain classes of late-onset failure that are alarmingly common in computers, most of which involve thermal stress on solder balls (with the GPUs being the worst offenders). These problems don't usually start to show up in large quantities until after the first year, but reduce the machines to doorstops within the first three or four.

IMO, anything with a GPU should have a minimum five-year warranty, and the warranty should automatically be extended by a year every time they repair it. That's the only way it will ever cost the manufacturers enough to get them to put pressure on the GPU manufacturers to fix their designs....

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Please return in to original manufacturer.

Good luck getting him back in the original box he came in!

Re:warranty length

[Opportunist]

So I'm not the only one who can't get anything back into the box it came in?

I swear, those things are assembled by Tetris-masters.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

"I was born w/o any warranty and am still here 53 years later. Everything still works pretty well too. Lucky enough that the case hasn't ever had to be opened."

Awesome. And what sort of electronic gadget are you.

Re:warranty length

[Tharkkun]

the more annoying thing is, that for a device this expensive, the warranty is only 1 year long. apple even tried to bring that crap to EU. fortunately, apart from UK, the whole EU has 2 year warranty on everything.

And you didn't realize that EU citizens are paying for an extended warranty?

Apple's probably one of the best examples as their "EU Tax" is low - take the US model, add AppleCare (to satisfy EU warranty), add in the requisite VAT (20-25%) and convert to Euros, and you come out pretty close to the cost in Europe.

So if you hate 1 year warranties, when the Best Buy cashier asks "DO you want the extended warranty", say "Yes". In Europe, Australia, etc., guess what? You can't say no, you don't want the 2 year warranty, let me save the 10-20%.

Turns out everyone's really been factoring in the extended warranty into the price for Europe.

TINSTAAFL. In North America, they ask if you want the extended warranty. In Europe, Australia and other countries, they answered for you.

Oh, and yes, if you open stuff, it's fine. it's when you try to fix stuff you have problems. Warranty fraud is a huge thing, and you will see people try to claim "No, it wasn't submerged in water" even though it's clearly dripping water all over the counter.

It's a really big problem and as much as everyone would like to see more repairable stuff, the real problem is too many people just are not skilled enough. The good ones will just open it, see they can't fix it and put everything back. Most people bumble through things and make things worse

Even the law says that - if the damage can be traced to the failure, the warranty can be voided. For most devices, opening them and trying to screw around with stuff can be traced as the cause.

The problem is not the 1% of people who go to iFixit and get their replacement parts and tools, it's the 99% who don't and try to "fix" it but make things worse. Because the vast majority of those lack the skill, care, precision, tools, education, etc to not mess anything up. It's why iFixit can get all high and mighty about it, because they don't see the other end of it. Perhaps a stint at a retail customer service desk should help realize that people who use iFixit generally know what they're doing.

Not to mention I would guess most people don't own an electrostatic discharge mat or cable for their arm. When you open these electronic without those safeguards you can shorten the life of the electronics. Unless you can prove you took all the safeguards and didn't cause any additional damage then the manufacturers should have every right to void your warranty.

Re:warranty length

[Major Blud]

Get lost with your "facts" and stuff. Europe can do no wrong!

Re: warranty length

[macs4all]

Your newer Apple stuff is Wintel crap. Has been for years. I have 3 SE/30s and a Mac SE that all still work fine. The Powerbook 165c wa acting funny last time I tried to boot it, though.

I only have one Intel-based Mac (my 2013 MBP). It has been working flawlessly so far.

Although I still love the raw, industrial-design tankish-ness of my Quad-Core 2.7GHz, liquid-cooled G5 tower, my Intel MacBook Pro will run circles around it. And it is a HELLUVA lot more portable!

Progress and all, ya know...


And remember, it was IBM's fault for not bothering to give Apple what they needed, i.e. a 3 GHz G5, and a "mobile" G5. They were too busy chasing the "Cell" Processor business for the likes of Microsoft and Sony at the time to mess with a G5 die-shrink. And so, Apple was stuck between falling farther and farther behind in the GHz-wars, while simultaneously not being able to offer a laptop with decent battery life and a G5; .and making the jump to the only viable choice: Intel.

Fortunately, NeXTStep/OS X was designed to be processor-agnostic; so, the rest is history.

And quite frankly, it was the single smartest move they ever made.

Re: warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

what!!! apple product dont contain magic and unicorn dust?

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but talk to Europeans and you'll discover that that two-year warranty comes through the retailer not the manufacturer. That makes getting prompt and effective repairs much more difficult.

Re:warranty length

[puto]

Let me know when that Apple 2 could render a video, play a song, and allow web browsing, all while transfering files at a high rate of speed over the internet. Devices today are exponentially more complex in design and function than an Apple 2 e. I also doubt you have used it on a daily basis for the last 30 years. I have an apple 2e and c that both boot, but I have not use them on the reg since 1989. I also have an 8088 that will boot as well. But again, simpler the device usually means less working parts, longer reliability. Plus, modern electronics take more abuse because they are portable. So the enviroment is constantly changing instead of sitting on a climate controlled desk.

Re:warranty length

[puto]

I have 1980s IBM PCs that will still boot and run. With ten meg hard drives. I have a 486 that still boot and run Windows 95 and 3.1. I have HP server with dual p-pros in it that ran from 1996 to 2007 until it was retired, that still boots and runs, the replacement server sits on top of it because it is too heavy to move. I also have a of four think pads that are old as hell that work flawlessly as well as a Dell Powerdedge from 2002 in my workshop that still works great as machine to browse the web when I need to look up info. I have Apple gear as well, and I do not think it is any better or worse. However, what I do not like is the thermal throttling on the cpu because they are not adequately cooled, because thin is in. Also, on any of my old Intel stuff, including my old poweredge I can install newer versions of windows and linux without a hitch. I have an old core duo from 2007 with 2 gigs of ram running windows 10 just fine enough for my mother. However, with Apples intels stuff they sunset the operatin system and you cannot upgrade it and they they deprecate Safari and Itunes so you can't used it to back up or restore apple gear, unless it is of a certain vintage date, when El Capitan would run fine on most machines. So you have that old mac, you get a new iphone, now you cannot transfer your data cause, well doesnt support the new versions of itunes so you are sol. But what its an Intel Mac, you can install Win 7 or above on it, and grab itunes for windows. So to support your apple device on apple machine, you have to install windows on it.

Re: warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Vaginas are made by tetris masters?

Re: warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

How the fuck did you avoid all the defective capacitor motherboards and (insert class action lawsuit) over the years?

Reliable my fucking ass. I think you just bought Apple care and conveniently forget what pieces of shit they have been.

Re: warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Neural networ. However, you appear to be a very small shell script.

Re:warranty length

[MagnumChaos]

My Apple //e had a 90-day warranty. Ninety days. It has worked flawlessly for 30 years. I bet you won't be able to say the same thing about your modern electronics.

Of course you can't say that! Most electronic devices used today are no older than ten years old!

Re: warranty length

[Gr8Apes]

Your newer Apple stuff is Wintel crap. Has been for years.

Funny, my 2006 Intel MacBook Pro doesn't have any MS software on it at all, and is still in daily use. Although I do freely admit it is on its last legs, but only because I cannot update it past 10.6 and get more than 3GB of RAM in it.

Re: warranty length

[macs4all]

How the fuck did you avoid all the defective capacitor motherboards and (insert class action lawsuit) over the years?

Reliable my fucking ass. I think you just bought Apple care and conveniently forget what pieces of shit they have been.

Never bought Apple Care in my life, although I was tempted for my MacBook Pro, just because it's a laptop, ya know...

For whatever reason (careful sourcing of components, instead of "this week's cheapest" I would imagine), Apple didn't suffer the infamous bootleg-electrolyte-formula capacitor debacle of the first part of this century on any of its own motherboards that I know of, that had plagued so many Wintel machines. I do think it did have an issue with that in some of the first generation Airport Base Stations, though. I have one I bought cheap offa eBay that I was able to replace the bad cap. in and give it to my sister.

Re:warranty length

[Gr8Apes]

Not to mention I would guess most people don't own an electrostatic discharge mat or cable for their arm. When you open these electronic without those safeguards you can shorten the life of the electronics. Unless you can prove you took all the safeguards and didn't cause any additional damage then the manufacturers should have every right to void your warranty.

I'd have to agree, sadly, that in the case of warranties, the manufacturers are correct in their stance. I do own an electrostatic discharge mat and cable, and have done more than my fair share of digging through various computers. However, I think manufacturers should not discourage tinkering once you're out of warranty, or you release them from warranty repairs. You can't have it both ways, keeping them on the hook while you root around and potentially break things.

Re:warranty length

[TemporalBeing]

Kind of...however, there's also been a very big attempt at designing things to fail just outside the warranty period - e.g. make sure it's good enough to get past the warranty then fail so that you have to buy another.

Really? My "computer museum"/Junk Room is the final resting place of nearly a dozen Apple computers from my Apple ][+ on up, and I think only one of them are in a non-working state, despite most of them being over two decades old. I also have a 2005 G5 tower and 2013 MacBook Pro that are in 24/7/365 use. In fact, the 2013 MacBook Pro is my newest Mac. Oh, and my iPad 2 is also well over that year-long warranty, and it gets HEAVILY used every day. So, speak for your Wintel crap. Apple stuff is made to last...

I typically avoid the expensive Apple stuff, but as others have pointed out Apple has issues too.

My wife likes her iPod and iPad mini; but in both cases we're hitting issues not generally hardware issues but software issues - they can't get upgraded beyond certain versions, and apps, etc are starting to not be available on them so they're coming to be SOL despite being perfectly usable.

Or take her iPad mini, which has been dropped due to the kids and has a shattered screen (not badly but enough to be annoying and create a couple spots where touch doesn't work well). Apple refuses to replace the glass - which is all that is wrong with it (they'll happily sell her a new one and give a discount if she turns it in though), and it's difficult to find a third party vendor to do so either. She still continues to use it.

So yeah, Apple is just as guilty though they do tend to use higher-end components and charge out the wazoo for them to start with so they're not *as* bad as other vendors for Windows and Android products.

Still, my primary point is that the "design to last just beyond warranty" has been something the electronics industry has excelled at for the last 20 years - an Apple ][e is well over that in age. I think a lot of it came in around the dotCom bubble burst in 2000 when they went from trying to compete for the best to trying to build as much recurring revenue as possible and in the process screwing the customer.

Re:warranty length

[serviscope_minor]

He didn't specify computer. I went for the base model iPhone.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much all my computers are still running if I power them up. I've had just one computer fail, and one phone which took a bit of water damage.

Also, why are you still constantly using a 30 year old PC? The newer models too expensive for you? ;)

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell that to all the people who bought laptops just a few years ago which customers had to win a class action lawsuit...

The failure rate was high enough to justify a victorious class-action lawsuit. How's that for reliability?

Re:warranty length

[macs4all]

My wife likes her iPod and iPad mini; but in both cases we're hitting issues not generally hardware issues but software issues - they can't get upgraded beyond certain versions, and apps, etc are starting to not be available on them so they're coming to be SOL despite being perfectly usable.

Name ANY tech device for which that ISN'T the case. "Support" and "Upgrades" have a lifespan. Apple is almost always near, or at, the top as far as that goes. Time does move on. but it doesn't mean the device, the OS, or the Apps on it magically stop working, does it?, next!

Apple refuses to replace the glass

You mean "under warranty"? Or do you mean "They want to replace the entire Digitizer, when YOU think its just the "glass" that is broken"? Or do you mean "They refuse to even repair it at all at any price"?

And of course, your statement "it's difficult to find a third-party vendor to do it" exposes you for being either a bald-faced liar (more likely) or a complete idiot. Heck, if you're not a complete klutz, you can even do it yourself (which I think was the whole point of TFA) iFixit even has some nice step-by-step guides, what more could you want?

The rest of your "comment" doesn't even bear scrutiny.

Re:warranty length

[macs4all]

Tell that to all the people who bought laptops just a few years ago which customers had to win a class action lawsuit...

The failure rate was high enough to justify a victorious class-action lawsuit. How's that for reliability?

Citation, please?

Re:warranty length

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

My Apple //e had a 90-day warranty. Ninety days. It has worked flawlessly for 30 years. I bet you won't be able to say the same thing about your modern electronics.

You could say it, it just wouldn't be true, lol.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

53 years without needing surgery for anything? That's impressive.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

But Apple care is not just a 2 year warranty. It is also support....which your EU warranty is not. So keep comparing apples to oranges. Ill stick with apples.

Re:warranty length

[puto]

Stop being a fucking shill. http://appleinsider.com/articl... http://9to5mac.com/2015/02/19/...

Re: warranty length

[Billlagr]

Back of the Vic-20 and C64 Programmer's Reference Guide! Big fold out ones.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Your numbers are way off.

Two extra years of AppleCare is $129, not $86. It makes a total of three when including the initial 1-year warranty.

And it seems you're assuming the statutory warranty is only a total of 3 years; it varies from country to country but in the UK, the warranty period is between five and six years: http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

Re:warranty length

[Mystiq]

Ok, I need to make two jokes. Surely one of them will get me an upvote, assuming the other one isn't bad enough to cancel out the funny.

1) Won't someone please make an iBreakIt.

2) Is this a bad time to say I'm the 99%?

Re:warranty length

[antdude]

Not me. I was born with defects. I asked God to be RMAed, but he refused. :(

Re:warranty length

[4im]

the more annoying thing is, that for a device this expensive, the warranty is only 1 year long. apple even tried to bring that crap to EU. fortunately, apart from UK, the whole EU has 2 year warranty on everything.

Beware of the reversal of proof after 6 months though - if your device breaks past those first 6 months, you have to prove that there was a fault from the manufacturer, or else they won't need to fix it. Many will take up the warranty anyway (customer satisfaction and all), but definitely not everyone.

Anecdote: my telephony provider (through which I acquired it) didn't agree to have my Nexus 5 fixed after 1 1/2 years, despite warranty... and I'm 100% sure I wasn't at fault - but good luck proving that. Guess what: no more devices acquired through them, I've reduced my subscriptions with them, and I'll avoid them as much as possible in the future... and certainly no more recommendations for good service.

Re:warranty length

[houghi]

Yes, you pay for the warrenty. I used to work for an electronics company and we had details on what broke and when and how often.

we also sold extended warrenties. At the moment I started working there it was 1 year and the law changed to two years, As they knew exactely when people called and how often, it was pretty easy to calculate the price increase that would cover the loss.

In the end it is a sort of (cheap) insurance that will make sure you do not walk out the store with a dead device. Forgot the numbers, but the increase in price was pretty small. Well below the 1% where an extended warrenty would be around 10% or more,

Why 10% or more? Because people are abusing it. During the X-mas period a lot of these came back as suddenly broken where you could clearly see it was not 'dropped' but abused with a hammer or the like. You should hear the people on the phone when they received an identical system back (that we still had in stock) from 2 years ago and not the latest hardware.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, you forgot to consider the non-carrier markup on a phone. Most phones are sold at a discount, i.e. being subsidized by the carrier who has the monthly contract. People who buy an "unlocked" phone at full price are being gouged.

Re:warranty length

[greenfruitsalad]

no i meant apart from UK, where it is 1 year. it's the main reason why electronics are slightly cheaper there than in the rest of europe.

Re:warranty length

[greenfruitsalad]

what's so weird about that? if i buy a thing from shop XYZ, then that is where i will go to return it if it breaks. i don't care who manufactured it. my sales contract was with the seller, not the manufacturer.

if you're a supplier who does not offer a 2 year warranty to your resellers, you'll have a hard time finding resellers in EU. not impossible, but difficult.

Re:warranty length

[Coren22]

To be fair, there are recalls on the human body, we just can't visit the manufacturer to get the repairs done.

Re: warranty length

[moofo]

For whatever reason (careful sourcing of components, instead of "this week's cheapest" I would imagine), Apple didn't suffer the infamous bootleg-electrolyte-formula capacitor debacle of the first part of this century on any of its own motherboards that I know of, that had plagued so many Wintel machines.

They suffered from bad capacitors in the iMac G5. Several persons had to replace their motherboard once or twice ! I have one home that works, but the MLB was replaced twice on it.

Re: warranty length

[macs4all]

For whatever reason (careful sourcing of components, instead of "this week's cheapest" I would imagine), Apple didn't suffer the infamous bootleg-electrolyte-formula capacitor debacle of the first part of this century on any of its own motherboards that I know of, that had plagued so many Wintel machines.

They suffered from bad capacitors in the iMac G5. Several persons had to replace their motherboard once or twice ! I have one home that works, but the MLB was replaced twice on it.

The iMac G5 seems like it was a little late for the bootleg capacitor debacle; but I'll take your word for that one, especially since there are several articles I was able to Google relating to capacitor replacement.

Now I wonder if that is what happened to a used 2004 eMac I purchased (and subsequently trashed) to use as a home surveillance computer. I just chalked it up to the power supply issues that many of those demonstrated.

Re:warranty length

[Moridineas]

Warranty is not the same as AppleCare. The two year pro-rated number was the closest approximation I could come up with. Not perfect, but a rough ballpark.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you're missing something. Apple has been claiming even inside the EU that their devices are only covered by a 1 year warranty for decades. They haven't adjusted their prices after they were defeated in court and had to cover the european minimum 2 year warranty.

Re: warranty length

[sumdumass]

Sure they do. Except now instead of powering the processor, It is tucked into a locket kept around the processor's neck for nostalgia and luck.

Re:warranty length

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh look, it's Slashdot's #1 Apple shill. Does Tim Cook personally suck your cock or something to get you to post this crap?

This is of course the same Apple that seals batteries in almost all of their devices with idea that when the battery goes the device will be replaced. Yes, I know they can be replaced but Apple knows that most people won't do that. Ditto on how hot some of their stuff runs (they know heat kills electronics), and the slow-it-down updates they issue for older devices. Oh, and you can't count on them even issuing updates for devices older than about 5 years. They do for some devices, but you can't count on it and you have no idea when you purchase it.

At least my "Wintel crap" is built with standard parts that can easily be serviced or repaired. I've never retired a computer because it failed. My oldest computer in use is my router, a Pentium III from the late 90's (has run 24/7 for years now), and my newest I put together in 2012, though I very recently upgraded the graphics card (try that with a Mac!). My Windows laptop is a Thinkpad from 2006 and runs Microsoft's latest OS just fine. Any Mac laptop that old is a paperweight (well, you could install another OS on it I suppose...).

Re:warranty length

[TemporalBeing]

My wife likes her iPod and iPad mini; but in both cases we're hitting issues not generally hardware issues but software issues - they can't get upgraded beyond certain versions, and apps, etc are starting to not be available on them so they're coming to be SOL despite being perfectly usable.

Name ANY tech device for which that ISN'T the case. "Support" and "Upgrades" have a lifespan. Apple is almost always near, or at, the top as far as that goes. Time does move on. but it doesn't mean the device, the OS, or the Apps on it magically stop working, does it?, next!

My wife's first (second?) gen iPod Touch. Upgrades only go though I think iOS4. Her iPad Mini I think is only getting upgrades through iOS8.

Of course the key in there is "lifespan" - and the "lifespan" defined by Apple may not be what it is defined by its users. These are still perfectly good devices.

Apple refuses to replace the glass

You mean "under warranty"? Or do you mean "They want to replace the entire Digitizer, when YOU think its just the "glass" that is broken"? Or do you mean "They refuse to even repair it at all at any price"?

Only the glass is broken; and yes we took it to an Apple Store and they said they won't fix it. I doubt warranty had anything to do with it; they would have been happy to give her a discount on a new device if she turned it in, but that was it. So yes, Apple refused to fix it for "any price".

And of course, your statement "it's difficult to find a third-party vendor to do it" exposes you for being either a bald-faced liar (more likely) or a complete idiot. Heck, if you're not a complete klutz, you can even do it yourself (which I think was the whole point of TFA) iFixit even has some nice step-by-step guides, what more could you want?

I've advised her of several vendors that claim to do it; but she has yet to take it in. I'm not saying it can't be fixed - it most certainly can. My point was regarding Apple's service, not third party vendor service.

Re:warranty length

[macs4all]

My wife's first (second?) gen iPod Touch. Upgrades only go though I think iOS4. Her iPad Mini I think is only getting upgrades through iOS8.

I don't know about the iPod Touch; but your Wife's iPad Mini (even first gen.) is good-to-go up through iOS 9 (the current release). I believe it may not be supported on iOS 10; but for now, your wife can upgrade it to the latest version of iOS.

Of course the key in there is "lifespan" - and the "lifespan" defined by Apple may not be what it is defined by its users. These are still perfectly good devices.

And they will continue to be perfectly good devices. It doesn't mean that when iOS 10 comes out, your wife's iPad mini will suddenly no longer boot. It simply means that it won't be able to load the newest version of iOS. So what?

Only the glass is broken; and yes we took it to an Apple Store and they said they won't fix it. I doubt warranty had anything to do with it; they would have been happy to give her a discount on a new device if she turned it in, but that was it. So yes, Apple refused to fix it for "any price".

It still sounds like you were asking Apple to just replace the GLASS, rather than replace the more-expensive front-panel assembly; which they may very well not do.

I've advised her of several vendors that claim to do it; but she has yet to take it in. I'm not saying it can't be fixed - it most certainly can. My point was regarding Apple's service, not third party vendor service.

Well now she's just being obdurate. She has been shown a way to effect a repair on her iPad mini; however, she just refuses to use that solution.

Good luck with that

[chispito]

The manufacturers are not implying your warranty evaporates if you break the seal. It's more that you will never succeed in convincing them that you did not cause the problem at that point.

In a more extreme example, would you want to be a manufacturer and honor a warranty on a (spinning) hard drive with a broken seal?

Re:Good luck with that

[tripleevenfall]

This is a lot like those signs on the back of dump trucks that say "Not responsible for broken windshields".

The sign changes nothing about the law, but it probably works very well to discourage people from trying to recover damages from them.

Re:Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

It is worth saying that the bigger data recovery companies have their own seals to put on the drives so if someone chooses to warranty a drive after they have worked on it the vendors will accept it. I know drivesavers at least was accepted by pretty much everyone. Drives are bad examples though as opening them can cause issues with partials in the air causing problems(where drives have filters on them or are sealed and filled with another gas).

Re:Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone can easily break a hard drive without breaking the seal (I'm looking at you Fedex and UPS).

Re:Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

The manufacturers are not implying your warranty evaporates if you break the seal. It's more that you will never succeed in convincing them that you did not cause the problem at that point.

The article specifically says the burden of proof is on the manufacturer to show that you caused the problem... You might have to take them to court of course. The case of opening a airtight sealed spinning harddrive is probably a good example where it would be easy for a manufacturer to reasonably prove that your opening it, caused a problem - as it is specifically sealed to prevent dust and such from causing problems. Or in the case of higher end hds, sealed to keep the helium in :)

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/189813-western-digital-unveils-worlds-first-10tb-hard-drive-helium-filled-shingled-recording

Re:Good luck with that

[sims 2]

Well I know first hand that if you open a xbox one microsoft will refuse to repair it at any price.

Re:Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no doubt that there are lots of metrics on warranty repair such as by country and location. I'm sure initial shipping plays a large part in the MTBF of any piece of sensitive electromechanical hardware of precision build. And while yes, there could be better (hence expensive) methods of packaging the item, I'm sure the MBA folks have ran the numbers and concluded that to do so is a net loss in profits. Meaning, better to just take the hit and issue an RMA upon request.

Re:Good luck with that

[tomhath]

but it probably works very well to discourage people from trying to recover damages from them.

Maybe, but I expect it's really just telling people to back off in a manner that gets their attention.

Re:Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

You also have the chance of getting your xbox serial number banned from logging on online along with the account linked to that xbox.

Re:Good luck with that

[Sir Holo]

The manufacturers are not implying your warranty evaporates if you break the seal. It's more that you will never succeed in convincing them that you did not cause the problem at that point.

In a more extreme example, would you want to be a manufacturer and honor a warranty on a (spinning) hard drive with a broken seal?

Under Magnuson-Moss, the burden of proof (that the failure was caused by the consumer) is on the manufacturer, not the consumer.

Stores will lie to your face about this. Ask for a Manager. If no love, write them a letter, USPS Certified w/return-receipt. You will get movement. And in the rare case not even then, well, sue them in small claims. It is not difficult.

Re:Good luck with that

[macs4all]

Well I know first hand that if you open a xbox one microsoft will refuse to repair it at any price.

We're talking Microsoft here. Would you expect any different?

Re:Good luck with that

[NoSalt]

I actually caught the license plate of the truck that broke my last windshield. I gave it to my insurance company, and they acted like I had given them a futon. They had no idea why I was doing it, and couldn't care less about the information.

Re:Good luck with that

[Cajun Hell]

"According to this proposed contract, by breaking this seal, you have agreed to the contract." It's all about persuasion.

Re:Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

I still have a late 90s IBM deskstar nailed to a tree out back used as a paintball shooting target. Warranty they would not, so shoot them I must.

Re:Good luck with that

[oh_my_080980980]

Yes.

Re:Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

Well they are not the DMV or police. You would probably need to fill out a police report to eventually get info for the claim. The insurance companies are always going to just hit your comprehensive and jack your rate instead of get off their ass.

Re:Good luck with that

[sims 2]

Sure most companies are reasonable enough to offer to repair whatever it was for 90% the cost of a new one.

Also they claim that drop damage is actually covered by warranty. Well unless you open the xbox one to determine why it no longer reads discs.

Re:Good luck with that

[adosch]

The manufacturers are not implying your warranty evaporates if you break the seal. It's more that you will never succeed in convincing them that you did not cause the problem at that point. In a more extreme example, would you want to be a manufacturer and honor a warranty on a (spinning) hard drive with a broken seal?

Right. It's not that you can't open it or incapable of fixing whatever-it-is yourself, but I see as more of a support guarantee that if Johnny Amateur who thinks he knows what he is doing tried to take a shot at fixing whatever-it-is, that it's a good litmus test to toss in the 'dont-waste-your-time-with-this' pile vs. we, as a company, can almost 100% guarantee what is under that hood is still how it was when we put it in that box, thus carry on with the fixing on their end.

But I'd never exercise the concept of this. For starters, it would be mega douche-baggery at it's end-user finest, not to mention, if I was on the other end of that phone listening to it, you'd get what anyone would expect in terms of end-user satisfaction: "Good Flippin' day, sir." Willy Wonka style.

BTW, Was TFA suppose to be an 'empowering' tech article post? It wasn't for me. Too bad I couldn't overall mod the article as 'Score: 10,000,000,000 Funny'.

Re:Good luck with that

[david_thornley]

Which is an example of the illegal acts mentioned in the summary.

Re: Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

Most insurance policies have a separate glass clause with a different deductible. In most instances, using your windshield coverage should not affect your premiums.

Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[kheldan]

Raise your hands (er, leave a comment) if you routinely void warranties! :-)

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not usually since the warranties are so short that the devices usually break just after the warranty expires. So not "voiding the warranty" at that point when opening the devices.

Re: Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[Bing Tsher E]

I rooted my Galaxy Tab within two weeks of buying it.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[Anonymous Coward]

Computer Power Supplies.

I open them routinely for cleaning purposes, can double the life expectancy if it is used in a dusty environment.

Has a sticker that i have to remove. (voiding the warranty) we do not extend any warranty onto them after doing this.

I have done this hundreds of times.

I work in a repair shop, we have insurance in case one blows up somewhere.
 

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[kheldan]

Yeah, I do this too, also because I spent so many years repairing electronics that I know what the life expectancy of your typical electrolytic capacitor is and want to check on them for any swelling. I've saved my TiVo Series 3 HD from a premature death this way, replacing all the electrolytics in it when it needed it.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[nehumanuscrede]

Depends on the device I suppose.

Very complex devices, high dollar devices or those which require some crazy special tools or alignment / calibration I typically leave alone.
( Eg: I'm not going to dismantle a $10k telephoto lens to try and clean it. I'll let the pros do their thing. )

Everything else is fair game.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[macs4all]

Yeah, I do this too, also because I spent so many years repairing electronics that I know what the life expectancy of your typical electrolytic capacitor is and want to check on them for any swelling. I've saved my TiVo Series 3 HD from a premature death this way, replacing all the electrolytics in it when it needed it.

Life expectancy of your typical under-spec'ed electrolytic, you mean. Properly spec'ed, electrolytics (even those in SMPS and Motor Drive applications) last a very, very long time.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[kheldan]

Yeah, I know, they usually cut the maximum voltage and temperature down to the bare minimum to save money. When I replace them I use better parts, especially if they're high voltage.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[jandrese]

Depends on the environment a bit too. High heat seems to kill electrolytics no matter how good they are. I see this frequently in mobos where the caps next to the GPU or underneath the shroud off of the CPU are always the first to blow. Every time I see it I say to myself "I sure am glad the manufacturer saved $0.05 per cap on this, it is definitely making my life better..."

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[macs4all]

Yeah, I know, they usually cut the maximum voltage and temperature down to the bare minimum to save money. When I replace them I use better parts, especially if they're high voltage.

Plus, some of the REALLY cheap shit doesn't even use caps that are rated for SMPS use (generally the brown-covered ones), let alone being 125 degree C rated. They die a miserable death in relatively short order.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[macs4all]

Depends on the environment a bit too. High heat seems to kill electrolytics no matter how good they are. I see this frequently in mobos where the caps next to the GPU or underneath the shroud off of the CPU are always the first to blow. Every time I see it I say to myself "I sure am glad the manufacturer saved $0.05 per cap on this, it is definitely making my life better..."

Replace them with 125 degree rated ones. It helps a lot. Oh, and if they are through-hole, you can sometimes lay them over on their sides to get them away a bit from a heat source like that. Just don't go crazy and put them on wires 6 inches long or anything!

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[AmiMoJo]

Removing and replacing warranty stickers without damaging them is also a popular geek pass-time.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[kheldan]

Been there, done that. In a previous life I repaired arcade games, including CRT monitors, and I even resurrected some of the shitty cheap-ass switching power supplies they used in them, I know all about how cheap-ass some 'manufacturers' can get. That was all back in the day but it was all a great supplement to my education.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm wearing a maker faire t shirt!!

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[macs4all]

Been there, done that. In a previous life I repaired arcade games, including CRT monitors, and I even resurrected some of the shitty cheap-ass switching power supplies they used in them, I know all about how cheap-ass some 'manufacturers' can get. That was all back in the day but it was all a great supplement to my education.

LOL! The way I got my real start in electronics and computers was repairing arcade equipment, lo many years ago,

When I was doing that, there weren't any SMPSes in arcade equip. Everything was analog 3-terminal regulators, like the LM309K. But you'll appreciate the fact that in one video game chock FULL of power-hungry 7400 TTL logic, they needed SOOOO much 5V that they actually "cheated" the LM309K by " bypassing" it with a 10W resistor(!!!!) Massively "bad engineering", but I guess it worked...

So between that, and another brief life as a stereo and musical-equipment bench tech, mine eyes have seen the (non)-glory of "cost reduction" elevated to a true guerrilla art form, LOL!!!

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[Kneo24]

You aren't doing right if that wire isn't bare and dangerously close to touching a lead on an unrelated circuit.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[macs4all]

You aren't doing right if that wire isn't bare and dangerously close to touching a lead on an unrelated circuit.

POP!!!

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[b783719]

I don't always void warranty, but when I do, I do it within 3hrs of unboxing the device.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[kheldan]

they needed SOOOO much 5V that they actually "cheated" the LM309K by " bypassing" it with a 10W resistor(!!!!)

Pac Man PCBs used something similar. It's actually a valid technique, if rather brute-force. On Pac Man, since the regulator they used was impossible to find, I'd retrofit it with a 78H05 TO3 package, which was a 5-amp regulator, replace the rectifier diodes and filter cap, and repair the edge connector with some copper sheet stock (or solder on an extension to the edge connector if it was that badly damaged). Then replace the edge connector on the harness side so it was a nice tight connection again. At the end of my 'career' in arcade game repair, I was even having a transformer house build us brand-new replacements for the power transformer they used; we could put together and sell completely refurbished Pac Man kits for people who wanted them, new harness, marquee, graphics, and all. Things were much simpler then.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[macs4all]

Pac Man PCBs used something similar. It's actually a valid technique, if rather brute-force.

It's NOT a valid technique. It is cost-cutting bullshit at its worst! You will NEVER see that in the National Semiconductor Datasheet or Application Notes for ANY 3-Terminal regulator!

There ARE valid techniques for making a "voltage follower" for boosting the output current of a 3 terminal regulator (like the one using a "pass transistor" shown on page 5 of this NatSemi Ap-Note); but bypassing it with a power resistor ain't one of them!

But of course, that would cost almost a whole dollar's worth of extra components! Why do that when you can "cheat" with a 50 cent power resistor, right? (rolls eyes)

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[kheldan]

Why? An external pass transistor is going to dissipate power as heat, and so is a fixed resistor. Meanwhile you just need to get some of the required current through something else so an active component can regulate the rest. If you know what your current requirements are in the first place, then there's no reason not to do it. I've seen that technique used in more places than just arcade games, too. Sure, if it was a bench power supply you wouldn't do it that way, especially if it was a variable voltage supply that needs to go all the way down to ground, and you certainly wouldn't do it that way if it was a current-regulated supply as well, but we're talking about a fixed +5VDC supply for a system that will have a known current requirement. Shunt resistor or pass transistor, both end up wasting power as heat; linear supplies were never very efficient to start with. That's why for linear supplies, later on LDO regulators were invented (less power wasted due to a smaller voltage drop across the pass transistor) and one of the reasons why switching power supplies were invented (aside from not having to have a gigantic transformer and gigantic filter capacitors).

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[macs4all]

Why? An external pass transistor is going to dissipate power as heat, and so is a fixed resistor. Meanwhile you just need to get some of the required current through something else so an active component can regulate the rest. If you know what your current requirements are in the first place, then there's no reason not to do it.

So, your contention is that, as long as the load is known, then all you need is the appropriate transformer and a rectifier. Afterall, who needs a voltage regulator anyway, right?

That's all fine and dandy if the line-voltage was constant; but it is not. And some (a lot) of digital ICs don't cotton to power supplies that are not kept to within 2% or greater of their nominal operating voltage. Things like logic thresholds, noise rejection, switching speeds, junction dissipation, protection diode operation, etc. depend on, and are directly affected by, even fairly small variances in supply voltage. And when we get down lower than 5 V, then the PS regulation gets even more critical.

LDOs were mainly created to supply things like 3.3V logic from a 5V rail, and 1.8V logic from 3.3V rails, without having to start with something like an 8 or 9V unregulated secondary supply, as is common for 5V analog regulators. The LDO part (Low-Drop-Out) is from the fact that those regulators don't need as much "headroom" to do their regulation, so they can use an Input voltage that is only about 1.5V above the intended Output voltage. Yes, that means there will be less heat; but that's not the REAL reason LDOs exist.

Re:Who here is warranty-voiding master-race?

[kheldan]

..I'm sorry, but while you're probably a perfectly wonderful person overall, it really doesn't sound like you understand much about electronics, if you don't understand what I'm talking about above. Sadly I'm not too surprised, at least 8 out of 10 of all 'electronics techs' I've ever worked with or talked to really don't either. I think there's nothing else for us to to discuss here, if you don't mind.

I'm shocked

[Kierthos]

Shocked, I tell you, shocked. (Maybe I shouldn't have touched the mains.)

Shocked, I tell you, that corporations would try and bypass federal law to avoid losing money. SHOCKED.

I mean, we all know corporations are all sweetness and light, concerned first and foremost with providing quality products to consumers, and not with squeezing every nickel and dime out of them, sending them to mandatory "third party" arbitration that favors them, and generally treating customers as disposable whenever possible.

Boy, I'm glad I don't live in a world like that, where corporations routinely bribe public officials and get away with it, because it's called "lobbying".

Re:I'm shocked

[jellomizer]

Perhaps it is the fact it is nearly impossible for any organization with a team of lawyers to know of all the laws that are out there.
This is a Law from 1975 and we are just looking into it now?
How many laws have you broken that you didn't know that was in place, because they are not actively enforced, and you never bothered looking up every action that you chose to do.
 

Re: I'm shocked

[adolf]

I've been telling everyone (here, too) about the Warranty Act of 1975, every time the foolish notion of "voiding" a warranty comes up, for over a decade.

If you're just hearing about it now, you should look around more.

Re: I'm shocked

[Grishnakh]

Yep, same here. I just notified someone about this law, complete with a Wikipedia link, on a car forum I read. The question comes up frequently: "will I void my car's warranty if I tint my windows" or something like that. A huge number of people think their warranty will be void if they modify their car even the slightest bit.

Re: I'm shocked

[orgelspieler]

I saved my company thousands of dollars by giving the air compressor manufacturer the finger. Ingersoll-Rand tried to tell us that the warranty was void if we didn't use their super-expensive lube and filters for the oil change service. We did it ourselves with no-name brand same weight oil for about $6k less than what they were going to charge. As soon as I mentioned the MMWA, they STFU. Basically as soon as you let somebody know they are full of shit, they will generally back down. Unless they really don't know the law, but most of these fuckers know that what they're doing is illegal.

Re: I'm shocked

[msauve]

"will I void my car's warranty if I tint my windows" or something like that. A huge number of people think their warranty will be void if they modify their car even the slightest bit.

And you're misleading them, because it depends on the actual warranty terms, and has nothing to do with the MM Warranty Act. A manufacturer can legally say you can't do modifications if you want the warranty to remain in effect. It's perfectly legal for them to say they won't cover an engine failure if you had ever hung fuzzy dice on the mirror, they just have to say so in clear language. And no, they don't have to prove anything, except that you violated the terms.

The whole "the MM Warranty Act says they can't stop you from doing modifications" simply isn't true. All that bullshit is based on this one section:

No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name

So, they can deny warranty coverage if you have put some performance doo-dad on it, as long as that's spelled out in the warranty (note that it prevents them from saying you have to use brand name X, it doesn't prevent them from saying you can't make modifications). And, no, they don't have to prove the modification caused the problem. They can even say you have to use their own replacement parts (if they're provided free under warranty). What they can't do is say you have to use their oil filters, or have the service done by their dealer, unless it is free.

Believe it or not, most car warranties are pretty reasonable, and only deny warranty coverage for failures actually caused by modifications.

Re: I'm shocked

[adolf]

Dear sir or ma'am,

I find your citation to be largely unsupportive of your claims.

Please resubmit with greater clarity.

Thanks you,

What about bans for using 3rd party parts / shops?

[Joe_Dragon]

What about bans for using 3rd party parts / shops?

There was an time where MS banned you for using your own HDD in the Xbox 360 and not there own ones that cost a lot more then just buying your own sata HDD.

What about systems that use the DMCA to lock out 3rd party parts? Like some printers and some cars?

Cars that have an reset change oil light code that they can if they want the DMCA to shut down jiffy lube and other 3rd party shops from doing oil changes?

Warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm still LOLing at the warranty even today... ok that trolling is getting played out. Haven't seen that dude today...

Anyway. Everyone is going to pull shit to get out of warranty claims. I had a Dodge Charger, under warranty, that I took up to the dealer for a check engine light. The service manager tries running this BS on me "Oh your car was MANUFACTURED over 3 years ago so you have to pay out of pocket." I'll bet a lot of people get taken for that ride. It's 3/36 from date of purchase, not when it rolls off the assembly line.

I bought another car recently, and the finance guy was giving me a line of bull, saying I had to buy their fucking maintenance package or my warranty would be void immediately.

Re:Warranty

[xtal]

Whenever car dealers pull this shady shit, get them to write it down on paper (or record it voice).

Then apply your small claims court to the problem and notify the parent manufacturer. There are substantial liabilities for this foolishness.

Re:Warranty

[JonahsDad]

I bought another car recently, and the finance guy was giving me a line of bull, saying I had to buy their fucking maintenance package or my warranty would be void immediately.

I made that mistake once. And by mistake, I mean that I bought the car after getting a line of bull from the finance guy. Now, if I get a line of bull from the finance person, I don't buy the car from that dealer. I also make sure the sales person knows why they just lost a commission.

Re:Warranty

[stephanruby]

Then apply your small claims court to the problem and notify the parent manufacturer. There are substantial liabilities for this foolishness.

That seems like a lot of trouble, especially if you know enough not to be scammed in the first place. Also, I didn't know Small Claims court could help if you didn't suffer any damage because you knew better.

One would think that in that case, complaining to the FTC, to the BBB, on Yelp, or to the Attorney General of your State, would be better.

Re:Warranty

[aitikin]

Complaining to the manufacturer can be effective as well. If they hear complaints like this, eventually they could revoke the dealer's license to sell new [insert manufacturer here] vehicles. See how well that would go over when the dealer can't deal those cars anymore.

Re:Warranty

[samwichse]

Thank goodness we have dealership networks to protect us from those evil manufacturers.

http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-...

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[JasonKoebler]

This is addressed in the article. All that shit is illegal, too

Re:Only LUDDITES use warranties.

[Anonymous Coward]

You and the cow guy need to merge some time, or at least respond to each other.

Re:Only LUDDITES use warranties.

[Anonymous Coward]

That would be great. Maybe something like:

Modern moo mooers moo moos using APPs, not luddite pigs.

MFJ has a "no-matter-what" warranty

[DewDude]

Of course..they make ham radio equipment...and some hams are real DIY. So their warranty is quite liberal in you can attempt to fix it yourself. They'll even send you parts if its something simple. Of course...we say MFJ stands for "Mighty Fine Junk"...and most stuff arrived pre-broken. But you can crack it open and they will still honor a warranty.

Re:MFJ has a "no-matter-what" warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

They almost have to, knowing their market. I remember seeing a review in a ham magazine eons ago for some fancy new transceiver that cost many months' pay, and the reviewer described bringing it home from the dealer and then ... once he'd put it back together after having a look around, figured maybe he'd plug it in for the first time and take it for a spin. It's in our blood!

Re:MFJ has a "no-matter-what" warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty easy to honor your warranty when the quality control lets anything fly.

Re:MFJ has a "no-matter-what" warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not prebroken, it's partially kitted

Re:MFJ has a "no-matter-what" warranty

[Anonymous Coward]

'they make ham radio"

Mmmmm, sounds delicious! I wonder if they will start making Spam radio?...

It's the same tactic used by parking lots.

[mark_reh]

Look on the back of the ticket. It will say something to the effect that "this disclaimer limits our liability" blah blah blah "we are not responsible for damage to or theft of/from your vehicle" blah blah blah. As far as I know, that isn't quite accurate from a legal standpoint.

Re:It's the same tactic used by parking lots.

[Anonymous Coward]

in valet parking, a bailment is created.
in self parking, they are offering you a space to put your car. they are not taking responsibility for your car.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[msauve]

How does a light being on prevent one from doing an oil change?

Ooh!!!

[johnsmithperson123]

Now, when a manufacturer doesn't honor my opened monitors warranty, I can sue them for lots of money!!! Class action lawsuit, everyone!!

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Anonymous Coward]

He meant the oil light comes on, but you have to hook the car up to an "authorized" device to turn it off. Car manufacturers could throw some low level security in to prevent non-authorized devices from resetting the light, then file a DMCA claim against Joe's Auto Repair for "illegally" bypassing their security measures. All because they want you to spend $120 for an oil change at the dealership.

It has nothing to do with the actual oil.

Reduces, does not remove liability

[raymorris]

With the disclaimer, the parking lot operator is responsible for providing a space suitable for parking. If you show that cars parked there were burglarized 46 times in the past six months, the place isn't suitable for parking and the operator may be liable.

Without the disclaimer, a customer may say "when I pulled in, there was an attendant who pointed to an open spot. I reasonably expected the attendant to keep on eye on the cars, so the operator is liable for any burglarly". The attendant may have been off duty later that night, when there were fewer customers. The sign, and the back of ticket, inform you that the attendant is not a 24/7 security guard.

Re: Reduces, does not remove liability

[adolf]

Er, no. It informs me of what it says.

What it says may be a damned lie, but that's still the information that I receive from such verbiage.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know where you get your oil done at. I'm only spent about 40% of your claimed price at a dealership and they rotate the tires too. My grand saving in base parts for doing my own oil change is about 6 dollars and I don't even need to worry about oil/filter disposal or time spent. Oil changes are nearly all done around cost because service centers use it as an easy way to get under your hood and find other issues that may be bring in more business. No different than all the "Free 20 point inspection" claims made by the same outfits.

I'm not saying you're wrong for doing your own oil changes (I do a lot of my own when out of warranty) but your hyperbole makes you look like a cry baby.

always connected appliances

[Lead Butthead]

considering everything is "connected" now so that they can harvest your varies habits and use them to their advantage, most stuff will just stop working when they decided there's no more money to be made from it and shuts down the server (Nest comes to mind...) The servers would've gone offline long before any of the component fails.

Not illegal, bad language

[holophrastic]

Saying "no refunds" isn't illegal. Not giving a refund is illegal. I've built many ticketing systems, for consumer trade shows and such; every ticket says non-refundable right on it -- we even need to prioritize it in terms of layout space on a small ticket. But it's illegal to not provide refunds on such tickets, and every show is happy to provide a refund to anyone who asks. It's just not advertized that way -- it's counter-promoted. That's not illegal.

Similarly, the void-if-removed sticker is not illegal. Actually not respecting a warranty claim is what's covered by the law. I didn't read it thoroughly, but I highly doubt that the MMWA says anything about lying with a sticker.

Similarly again, telling a customer who calls in and asks "will you sell to people" that you don't serve is not illegal. Actually not serving them is.

Talk is cheap; or the I-believe-it's-polish expression: to talk and to love costs no money..

Re:Not illegal, bad language

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA:

Frank Dorman, a spokesperson for the FTC, told me that warranty-voiding stickers appear on their face to be a violation of the MMWA.

“The stickers could be deceptive by implying consumers can’t use parts the warrantor doesn’t pre-approve, which violates the anti-tying provisions of MMWA,” Dorman told me.

Deceptive business practices can themselves be unlawful.

Re:Not illegal, bad language

[holophrastic]

If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

"could be", "implying", "can themselves" -- those're a lot of if's.

Re:Not illegal, bad language

[Anonymous Coward]

But it's illegal to not provide refunds on such tickets, and every show is happy to provide a refund to anyone who asks. It's just not advertized that way -- it's counter-promoted. That's not illegal.

In the USA, under the hierarchy of law, if the public decides having businesses lie to them violates their rights, it becomes illegal, as a violation of the open-ended Bill of Rights (unspecified rights retained by the people, 9th Amendment, unspecified rights reserved to the people).

Congress is not the highest law in the land. An act of Congress is not required for something to be illegal. Nothing in the Bill of Rights limits applicability to government (certain amendments are so limited, but not the rest, and those could not be so limited for reasons that reasons that should be obvious).

No smart business owner or operator will lie to the public - or do anything else that is unethical - sooner or later somebody will get called on this, and nobody with any sense wants to be that somebody.

Anyone can make a sign

[Sir Holo]

Anyone can put up a sign, or write a "no returns" clause on consumer merchandise receipts. Lying is not illegal.

Now, refusing to take a warrantied return---that is illegal.

Re:Anyone can make a sign

[Actually, I do RTFA]

In some cases, lying about rights is most definitely actionable. A hotel that had a giant "NO [MINORITY] ALLOWED" sign would find themselves the subject of a lawsuit, even if they did rent to that minority when they presented themselves.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[guruevi]

My dealership oil change is $250, is done yearly but includes a full multi-point inspection, a state inspection and minor repairs (filters, gaskets, light bulbs etc), not just an oil change. It's also paid for by the manufacturer for 5y.

Either way, the oil light can be manually turned off/reset in all cars. The other lights by OBD readers and sometimes a sequence of steering wheel or ignition key movements.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Grishnakh]

You're wrong, and there's no hyperbole.

Your mistake is thinking that your dealership, or your experience with them, is universal.

You probably own some type of mass-market car like a Honda or Chevy or something. Buy yourself a Mercedes or BMW, go get the oil changed at your dealership, *then* come back and tell us that it costs less than $100.

No Warranty Void Sticker on ANY Apple Product!

[macs4all]

Been using Apple products since 1976. NEVER seen a "Warranty Void" sticker on ANY Apple Product.

And just looking at the MacBook Pro Warranty for the U.S.A., I see NOTHING about "No third-party repairs" or "Void if opened" bullshit.

Of course, NO ONE will honor a Warranty Claim from a non-Authorized Repair facility. That's like "Warranty Repair 101" logic. Otherwise, why have Authorized Repair Centers (which, BTW, ARE generally "Third Party").

Re:No Warranty Void Sticker on ANY Apple Product!

[Anonymous Coward]

Which would be nice if only Apple would offer authorization for third parties, but no longer offer that certification. So if you didn't have a third party authorization before a few years back, tough luck. Doesn't matter if you can actually repair a logic board from spare parts off digikey, no warrantied and new-in-static-bag Apple parts for you! You have to buy garbage, water damaged logic boards off ebay or powerbook medic or other such crap. If Apple can demonstrate consumer fault like water damage or torn cables, by all means void the warranty. But denying warranty just because I swapped out that slow Steaming-pile-of-shit-gate hard drive for an SSD (even though Apple's own documents say a HDD is user serviceable!) is just beyond asinine.

Sending it to the service depot is a godsend, though. Alot of times the real geniuses there are really nice and basically rebuild your mac even though all the water strips are red and corrosion is everywhere. You don't get that kind of service by bringing it to an Apple store, though. Major fistbump if you work at a repair depot, yalls my homies. Just don't be a dick and deny my claim because your test comes back as "not a hard disk" and you don't actually want to turn a screwdriver that day. That one got sent back, so my coworker literally picked a dead hard drive out of a box of other dead apple drives, kept the SSD, and resent the computer to the depot. After that replaced literally everything but the bottom panel. Not knocking the kindness, but what kind of sense does that make? I think the depot folks secretly hate apple, but really like working on them.

Re:No Warranty Void Sticker on ANY Apple Product!

[Anonymous Coward]

My Beige G3 had a "warranty void if broken or removed" sticker on the motherboard. It was over the CPU clock multiplier jumpers.

I had the Motorola-manufactured, aluminum-traced variant of that chip, running at 300 MHz. If I would've had the IBM-manufactured, copper-traced one, I would've totally broken that seal and bumped it to at least 400 MHz.

Re:No Warranty Void Sticker on ANY Apple Product!

[macs4all]

Which would be nice if only Apple would offer authorization for third parties, but no longer offer that certification. So if you didn't have a third party authorization before a few years back, tough luck.

As a former repair-tech (non-Apple) myself, I would opine that managing a network of third-party repair centers when you already have a Retail presence in all, or nearly all, states in the U.S. that includes repair services, makes absolutely zero sense, economically.

Unfortunately, so many "warranty" decisions are discretionary, and there are lenient techs (and tech-managers!) and dickish ones. Apple's U.S. hardware warranty for MacBook Pros implicitly ALLOWS for things like a swapped-hard drive WITHOUT voiding the warranty, if the "repair" did not cause any damage .

This issue came up when the first Mac minis came out, and people wondered whether they could upgrade the RAM in them without voiding the warranty, because there was no obvious way to open the case (Paint-Scrapers, FTW!). Apple was more or less "forced" to actually release a statement that said, in effect "As long as you don't mess anything up while you're doing it, you won't void your warranty."

So, if you got a Warranty Claim denied just because a User-Replaceable HD was replaced, and you did so using Apple's Instructions (like the ones provided on page 37 of this MacBook Pro manual), and the replacement part and procedure didn't cause any ancillary damage, then you needed to escalate that warranty claim up the food-chain. Because that does NOT appear to be actual "Policy".

But people are people, and some people are just dicks...

Re:No Warranty Void Sticker on ANY Apple Product!

[puto]

If you get an apple device repaired at a third party that is not an AASP and you then take it into apple and they see it has third party parts in it, they will refuse to even look at it. In most cases. Mostly for idevices, but can extend to computers.

1.10.6 Disclosure of Unauthorized Modifications. During the service ordering process, you must notify Apple of any unauthorized modifications, or any repairs or replacements not performed by Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider (“AASP”), that have been made to your product. Apple will not be responsible for any damage to the product that occurs during the repair process that is a result of any unauthorized modifications or repairs or replacements not performed by Apple or an AASP. If damage results, Apple will seek your authorization for any additional costs for completing service even if the product is covered by warranty or an AppleCare service plan. If you decline authorization, Apple may return your product unrepaired in the damaged condition without any responsibility.

Re:No Warranty Void Sticker on ANY Apple Product!

[macs4all]

If you get an apple device repaired at a third party that is not an AASP and you then take it into apple and they see it has third party parts in it, they will refuse to even look at it. In most cases. Mostly for idevices, but can extend to computers.

1.10.6 Disclosure of Unauthorized Modifications. During the service ordering process, you must notify Apple of any unauthorized modifications, or any repairs or replacements not performed by Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider (“AASP”), that have been made to your product. Apple will not be responsible for any damage to the product that occurs during the repair process that is a result of any unauthorized modifications or repairs or replacements not performed by Apple or an AASP. If damage results, Apple will seek your authorization for any additional costs for completing service even if the product is covered by warranty or an AppleCare service plan. If you decline authorization, Apple may return your product unrepaired in the damaged condition without any responsibility.

That's a Warranty condition. Doesn't mean that Apple won't repair as NON-Warranty.

Re:No Warranty Void Sticker on ANY Apple Product!

[adolf]

f you get an apple device repaired at a third party that is not an AASP and you then take it into apple and they see it has third party parts in it, they will refuse to even look at it. In most cases. Mostly for idevices, but can extend to computers.

Oh, my lord. Does anyone read the shit they post anymore?

During the service ordering process, you must notify Apple of any unauthorized modifications, or any repairs or replacements not performed by Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider ("AASP"), that have been made to your product. Apple will not be responsible for any damage to the product that occurs during the repair process that is a result of any unauthorized modifications or repairs or replacements not performed by Apple or an AASP.

So. You go modding a third eyeball into the back of your iWidget, and have it illuminated and software-controlled, because you're just cool like that.

Apple wants you to

A) Tell them about this. (Well, duh.)
B) Accept the fact that IF , DURING THE REPAIR PROCESS, the third eyeball on your iWidget (iBall?) causes the device to be damaged, THEN:
C) Apple will ask for more money, because them working around your mod is now above and above them working on the terms of the warranty (though it was still fine until it got damaged BECAUSE of the mod).
D) You can either pay them more money, and get the warranty issue fixed (and presumably your iBall mod re-assembled) or they'll just send it back to you broken.

Nowhere in the verbiage quoted does it say the warranty is toast, or that they'll refuse to look at it. In fact, the default condition is to A) tell them about the iBall, and proceed to the undeclared step of E) have warranty repair completed.

None of this means that managers aren't assholes who don't understand their own corporate policy, but that's a social problem and not a legal one, and the remedy is also social: First you talk to his boss, then that boss's boss, and so on, politely, until you find someone that can actually understand their own written warranty statement.

Which I guess can be hard, since you, puto, apparently can't be bothered with even doing so yourself. I suggest you start.

(There's another one born every minute, it seems.)

Re:No Warranty Void Sticker on ANY Apple Product!

[puto]

I guess your reading comprehension is not as as good as your undying loyalty to Apple. If damage results, Apple will seek your authorization for any additional costs for completing service even if the product is covered by warranty or an AppleCare service plan. So the above statement, which is clear, says that if whatever third party repair is made, even if something else breaks that is normally covered under warranty, they reserve the right not to fix it. Some of us might just receive a paycheck from the fruity computer company.

Re:No Warranty Void Sticker on ANY Apple Product!

[freeze128]

The pentalobe screws are your warranty sticker.

Re:No Warranty Void Sticker on ANY Apple Product!

[macs4all]

The pentalobe screws are your warranty sticker.

Right. Because you can only get Pentalobe Drivers and Pentalobe Screws from about 10 sources on Amazon, and also from iFixit, and on eBay, and...

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Joe_Dragon]

Yes but they can use the DMCA to shut down that source that lists the sequence of steering wheel or ignition key movements. As they can say that list is dealer only or that the codes / software are only for dealers only.

Rooting - same?

[no-body]

Rooting Android voids "warranty", so it is stated.

Now, what breaks with that may be up to discussion, but bringing it in for repair could that give you a refusal of service.
What use does this federal warranty law have?

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Anonymous Coward]

You think a Benz isn't mass market? How does it feel to use an automobile to try to raise your self-esteem?

Re:Only LUDDITES use warranties.

[hackwrench]

What leads to to believe they're not the same person?

Here we go again!

[Anonymous Coward]

This same kind of hue and cry occurred shortly after the first Asus EEE netbooks came out with such stickers over the door covering the RAM slot. Everyone wanted to upgrade the 512MB RAM to 1 or 2 GB in short order, but that scared them off until it hit the various tech news sites, and the Magnuson-Moss act was publicized. Asus backed down in short order as I recall (I know I did such an upgrade well after that mess, when I finally got my EEE - ran a LAMP Virtual Box pretty decently with 2GB for my LAMP classwork ;-} )

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Anonymous Coward]

The DMCA doesn't ban circumvention of all security measures, just those protecting copyrighted material against copying.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[known_coward_69]

no stupid, just look it up on youtube how to do it. on my honda it's fairly simple. i needed to turn it off because it's time based instead of going by miles and my wife is scared of these things and tells me to go get the oil changed.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[known_coward_69]

how else is honda, toyota or nissan or bmw going to get you to buy one of their "luxury" cars. make you pay for something and make you think you're getting it for free of course

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[known_coward_69]

it does stupid. i've been to italy and germany and benz and bmw are mass market cars. cheap too. but in the USA they market them as "luxury" complete with the snobby sales experience. your overpriced super magic car is so awesome that an oil change, something that has been done for 100 years now is marketed as some mystical and complex service that only the dealer can do. meanwhile they lock the doors so you can't see and change it like any other car

Re:Only LUDDITES use warranties.

[Opportunist]

Reminds me of a feature request I wanted to file: Could we get a filter based on content? Preferably regex-able.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Anonymous Coward]

On my Honda, it's engine-runtime based, not absolute-time based or distance based. That is the correct way to handle it, as idle wears the lubricants too.

Enjoy your broken Honda in a few years.

Oh, and if you do this within the warranty period, the warranty is void due to improper care for the vehicle. And they'll get you with it, too, because the ECU keeps track of it. If you reset the maintenance minder without actually draining the oil, the ECU increments a counter. If that counter is non-zero, your warranty is void, at least for the powertrain.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Thanatiel]

BMW are considered expensive cars in Europe in general.
And it used to be for good reasons : there is no contest between the driving pleasure of even a small one against, say, an Audi and of course the more popular VW. It was feeling like sliding on silk at full power but with an incredible grip on the road. The price of the "low range" is about the same as the "high range" or other brands.

Used to because for the last few years it's going down fast, at least for the "smaller" models, They are removing the traction for the 1 and 2 (or how to kill the image of a brand) and having changed recently : the engine lost some punch.

How did we switch to speaking about cars ? Oh, right.

False

[TylerJWhit]

This is an extremely limited and inaccurate view of the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.

First, this details what a FULL warranty is, and does not supersede state laws or the FTC's addressing of antitrusts.

Furthermore, the following law clearly states that they CAN detail the limitations of the warranty. https://www.law.cornell.edu/us...

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Joe_Dragon]

And what is there to stop from making the ECU increments a counter when the oil is changed at an non dealer shop?

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Never had the dealer change the oil on my car (2002 BMW 325i) but 7 quarts of quality full synthetic plus a good filter that isn't made by the company that makes the orange cans of death is pretty spendy just for supplies (I spend about $50 on oil and filter). I think the last time I looked BMW was charging like $150 for an oil change and while the dealer probably can get the supplies cheaper they also have labor that I don't pay. Then add in that I check all the belts, check all the fluid levels, change out the fluid in the power steering fluid reservoir, rotate the tires, check break pad wear, grease the wheel bearings, check for looseness in the suspension, etc. it is easy to see how a full service oil change can get expensive quickly. Granted I check and do more with my oil change than the dealer but then the full service oil change at the dealer still does a lot. I do enjoy working on cars as it is a nice change of pace from my day job.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[aitikin]

Yes but they can use the DMCA to shut down that source that lists the sequence of steering wheel or ignition key movements. As they can say that list is dealer only or that the codes / software are only for dealers only.

Considering my sequence is outlined in my owner's manual for that and many other things that "you need to go to the dealer for" I'd be shocked to hear them do that...

Why all the fuss?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you ask a knowledgeable hardware designer about electronic component life you will be told that there are three states:

1) Dead On Arrival (DOA)
2) Infant Mortality
3) Five or more years of usable life

In the case of DOA just return it to the seller.

In the case of Infant Mortality if it's in the seller's return window just take it back, if not take/send it to the manufacturer's authorized service center.

If the device doesn't fail in the first couple of weeks of use you can expect five years, or more, of useful life from your new toy so just sit back and enjoy it.

In essence the probability of the device failing between 3 months of age and 3 years of age is so low that it makes no sense at all to be concerned about the length of the warranty.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Have you MET the internet? Trying to squelch that kind of info is the fastest way to ensure that it lives FOREVER, attached to a reference to Moss-Magnuson to ensure even higher warranty expense in the future.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Grishnakh]

In the US, no, "Benz" is not mass market. Mercedes is a luxury moniker here.

And WTF are you talking about with self esteem? Are you too stupid to follow a rational line of thinking? I don't have a luxury car, I have a Mazda economy car. I merely pointed out that the OP's experience with oil change prices was not universal. You're not going to get cheap prices at many dealerships, including probably all the upmarket brands.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[Grishnakh]

No, you're really stupid for first calling me stupid and then reinforcing my point, which was that not all dealerships have cheap oil changes. I merely used BMW and Mercedes (there is no "Benz" here in the US, where the OP also lives) as examples to prove my point. They're not the only ones either; there's lots of luxury marquees here, all with high-priced service and cars which do nasty tricks like not letting you reset the oil-change indicator without a special dealer-only service tool.

Re:What about bans for using 3rd party parts / sho

[adolf]

And what is there to stop from incrementing the ECU's oil change counter, while keeping the old oil and filter in the car and doing zero work?

Re:Only LUDDITES use warranties.

[Coren22]

If that ever happened, I could dump my sig as I wouldn't see "someone's" posts at all.

Coren22 eats his words, lol... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code and said it looked all good - by Coren22

My code's verified by Mr. S. Burn of Malwarebytes

"I've seen the code and yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...

NOT a secretary!

I don't give it away to be stolen or misused like GOOGLE CHROME http://it.slashdot.org/story/1...

won't demonstrate security of his product be exposing the source - by Coren22 (1625475)

57 antiviruses show different https://www.virustotal.com/en/...

MalwareBytes' employee hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...

* EAT YOUR WORDS Coren22

APK

P.S.=> See subject - & remember a lesson Google had w/ Chrome above (even gov't.'s not opening all their code & same reason https://slashdot.org/submissio... OR what security pros see too https://www.helpnetsecurity.co... )