Tesla Admits Defeat, Quietly Settles Model X Lawsuit Over Usability Problems (bgr.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from BGR: We can talk about how innovative Tesla is for days on end. Indeed, there's no disputing the fact that the company, in injecting a bit of Silicon Valley ingenuity into the tried and true auto design process, has completely turned the auto industry on its head. At the same time, Tesla helped kickstart the EV revolution, even causing traditional automakers like Porsche and BMW to start taking electric cars more seriously. But in Tesla's zeal to move extraordinarily quickly, problems have inevitably begun to creep in. Specifically, quality control issues still seem to be plaguing the Model X. According to a recent report, avowed Tesla fan named Barrett Lyon recently returned his Model X and filed a lawsuit against Tesla arguing that the Model X was "rushed" and released before it was ready for sale. Now comes word that Tesla has since quietly settled the lawsuit. "In Lyon's lawsuit," Fortune writes, "he claimed the cars doors opened and closed unpredictably, smashing into his wife and other cars, and that the Model X's Auto-Pilot feature posed a danger in the rain. He also shared a video that shows the car's self-parking feature failing to operate successfully." Tesla's response: "We are committed to providing an outstanding customer experience throughout ownership. As a principle, we are always willing to buy back a car in the rare event that a customer isn't completely happy. Today, the majority of Model X owners are loving their cars."

Comments

Shitty refund policy

[mewsenews]

Sounds like the guy had to file a lawsuit to attain or expedite a refund, which sucks.

Notice the weasel language from the rep: "we'd be happy to buy back any unsatisfactory vehicles", not refund. Have to wonder if that means they will only refund market value of a used car.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[LordKronos]

If you could return the car brand new in the shinkwrap, never used, then perhaps a refund might make sense. But cars suffer wear and tear. The guy could have driven over a series of speed bumps at 30-40 miles an hour, doing significant damage that maynot yet be evident under a typical inspection. Plus already having an owner on the title affects value, and possibly even the next owner's ability to finance it as new rather than used. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a full refund, but I agree that "buy buy" is probably pretty misleading for the vast majority of customer.

Also, the reason he had to file the lawsuit is that he probably did want a full refund, rather than the buy back which surely was in the contract he signed (we can't go understanding what we signed, now can we).

Also, interesting thing about the guy's auto-park-fail video. First, he never shows us what's inside the garage, so who know what might be obstructing the cars path. 2nd, you notice the car stops it's autopark the very second that his motion sensitive garage light turns on. That seems like a very interesting coincidence.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[stabiesoft]

Given the car had issues almost immediately, lemon law basically says full refund. A minuscule amount would be deducted for miles driven before the FIRST problem was reported. The guy had no ax to grind, he owned a roadster and an S. Tesla was just stupid not to deal with this when he first asked. But then they have had a couple of braindead PR moments.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[swb]

If you could return the car brand new in the shinkwrap, never used, then perhaps a refund might make sense.

And how exactly will you know the car has problems if you basically need to have it trailered to a climate controlled storage facility in order to get a refund?

The whole "depreciation once you drive it off the lot" mindset is kind of a self-perpetuating myth that seems to have nothing to do with the actual material value of a car. I've bought used cars with 20k miles on them that were indistinguishable from new cars cosmetically and in every way practically measurable without disassembly, in-depth chemical analysis or the use of a microscope and they were good for the next 110,000 miles (and going strong).

I think the depreciation off the lot concept is a real economic phenomenon -- I've seen $110,000 cars mechanically perfect and guaranteed bumper-to-bumper for 3 years with 5500 miles on the odometer selling for $55,000. Yet it seems un-economic that somehow nearly half the value of the new car is lost somehow. Just who is absorbing that? Even assuming a 20% markup on the new car, *someone* is walking away from $40,000 after two months? Who, exactly, is eating a $40,000 real loss on this?

My guess is that the depreciation concept is a financial gimmick that somebody (lenders, car dealers, car manufacturers, etc) is making money on by turning phantom material depreciation into tax deductions or some other non-real loss that becomes a financial gain.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Shompol]

A car looses 25% off resale price as soon as it drives off the lot. I agree that this is a standard heavily influenced by the old industry that demanded a fat dealer markup, but with advent of private selling websites the industry has less and less say in setting resale prices. The real reasons are as follows:

• It is natural for people to want something shrink-wrapped from the factory
• Did the previous owner change oil? Did he redline the engine? Submerged the car in water?
• Is the car being sold before its time is up because something is wrong with it?

Buying a used car carries risk and people like being compensated for taking risk. If your friend/coworker is selling a car because of death/divorce/relocation then your risk would be lower yet still little incentive to pay above market price.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[AmiMoJo]

Finance deals are responsible for some of it. The finance company can take a big hit on the value of the car after a couple of years because they made money on the loan. Their business relies on quickly selling the car and they aren't really interested in running a garage or making much effort to increase the vehicle's value, so they tend to go via auction at dealer prices and buyer-beware levels of risk.

Dealers are to an extent the same. If they have a year old demo car with a few thousand miles on it they just want to shift it quickly. The manufacturer warranty is still in place but people are wary because they worry it might have been thrashed or driven badly by customers. The dealer needs to get the new model in for demos so they sell the old one off cheap.

Tesla combat this to an extent by offering a guaranteed buy-back price that is way above market rate. It's annoying because I'd buy a used Model S if they depreciated like other similarly priced cars.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[swb]

I've seen the largest depreciation on luxury cars and I'd guess that this large delta makes depreciation losses into something of a business niche itself with some complex buy-sell-lease-sell arrangement that allows the the depreciation writeoff and a high lease expense to be taken as deductions by two separate companies owned by one person which works to negate the real loss.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[deadweight]

I was the third owner of a BMW. First owner paid about $50,000 and drove 24,000 miles in two years. He sold it for $25,000 to the second owner, who drove 28,000 miles in two more years and sold it for $15,000 to me. I drove it 8 more years and sold it for $1800 with 240,000 miles on the clock. I would have got more except the tranny was beat and it had to get towed away. So....looks like the first owner got boned hard - real hard!

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Coren22]

If something is loose on a car, it should get tightened. Did you perhaps mean lose?

Re: Shitty refund policy

[sonicmerlin]

Where'd you see a 110k car with 5000 miles selling for 50k??

Re: Shitty refund policy

[swb]

Poquet Auto in Golden Valley, MN. BMW 750Li.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Grishnakh]

I think you're missing something pretty significant.

Depreciation on a car reflects the lower market value of a used car.

The reason your $110K car only sells for half the price after 3 years and a paltry 5500 miles is because if you're a rich person who can afford a $110K car, why on earth would you want to save 10% and get a used car? If you can afford a $110K car, you're not going to care much about saving $11K. This is why luxury cars depreciate so much faster than regular cars. $20K-30K cars don't depreciate so quickly, because it's much easier to find someone who's willing to buy it used just so they can save 20% or so off the new price.

The other factor in used car prices is financing rates. When you buy a new car these days, you can get really good financing deals, even down to 0% interest. Used cars do not have these deals; the interest rates are much higher. So if you can't afford to buy a car outright with cash (or just don't want to drain your savings that way), you can get a brand-new car for the same monthly payment and loan term as a used car. So why bother buying used?

Back to your comment about "walking away from $40,000": almost no one ever does this in reality. The depreciation reflects the true market value of the car, which is how much you can get someone to pay for it. If you go buy a $110K luxury car, you *will not* find someone willing to buy it from you after two months with only a small reduction in price. What gives you the idea that anyone would? The only way you'd unload that car is by dropping the price greatly, so that you can find some middle-class person willing to spend $60K or so on a formerly $110K car, because the people who can afford to buy it new aren't going to be interested. *That* is what the huge depreciation is reflecting.

So, no, depreciation is not a "financial gimmick".

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Grishnakh]

A car looses 25% off resale price as soon as it drives off the lot. I agree that this is a standard heavily influenced by the old industry that demanded a fat dealer markup

I completely disagree, and I can prove it.

Go buy a brand-new car. Now, go resell that vehicle on Craigslist. No dealer involved. You're not going to get close to the brand-new price for that car.

Resale price is what someone is willing to pay for the car, that's it. Dealer trade-in prices are lower because they have to make a profit, but private-party sales really show the true value (given that the seller can't really offer a warranty unlike a good dealer, which is one reason why used cars from better dealers cost more).

The reason you're not going to find someone on Craiglist willing to spend 98% of the new-car price for your just-off-the-lot car is because they can just go to the dealer and buy a brand-new one themselves, get one in the color they want with the options they want, and get dealer financing for it. It has little to do with the condition of the car.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[chihowa]

An out of court settlement admits the same liability and sets the same precedent as just issuing a refund immediately (ie none) and carries none of the bad PR of settling in the public eye after being threatened with a court battle. Letting it get this far was a fuck up on Tesla's part.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[mt2mb4me]

Are you sure about this? I am pretty sure most settlements have a "no fault" clause and a "STFU" clause

Re:Shitty refund policy

[david_thornley]

Last time we bought a car, we basically signed up for a 5-year loan at a trivial interest rate. Paying the car off would have been the wrong thing to do financially, since the interest rate is much below what we get on investments. That loan has a certain value in itself, and you're not getting those terms in a private resale.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Shompol]

This is exactly what I said, there was no need for drastic measures such as "completely disagree". However, used car dealers are still major player on the market and as such indirectly affect the prices set by private parties. For example, you cannot sell a car on Craigslist for more than asked by the dealer around the corner, because the dealer also provides a 2 month warranty, etc. As such the dealers indirectly steer the prices set on Craigslist.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Shompol]

I subconsciously stretched to o's to further stress the enormous loss of value :)

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Actually, I do RTFA]

He said there were failures in the car that went beyond it being undrivable, that it already damaged other cars. I would demand compensation for that, leasing a replacement new car for the amount of time it took the lawsuit to be resolved, legal fees, plus a punitive damage, all on top of a full refund for the car.

he reason he had to file the lawsuit is that he probably did want a full refund, rather than the buy back which surely was in the contract he signed (we can't go understanding what we signed, now can we).

There are many things you sign that are unenforceable. You cannot sign away customer protections, for a host of good reasons.

Now, you questioned if his case has merit. His suit might be BS, sure.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[Grishnakh]

Yep, that's exactly what I have, a 0.9% interest rate loan for 5 years. You can't buy a used car with that kind of rate.

Re:Shitty refund policy

[swb]

Since I posted my first post in this topic, I talked to someone I know in the car business and asked him, how, exactly, that car (BMW 750Li) could be sold in that condition for that asking price, and who was eating $40k on the deal, if anyone was really eating $40k.

His thought was that the car was bought deeply discounted to begin with -- list is $110k, but he said if the model in question is slow moving the dealer themselves will get an additional 10% from the ~18% margin they're working with, so the car probably initially sold for far less than list.

"But that still leaves you $30k in the hole.."

He said "I'm sure the new purchaser ate it." He went on to explain that the higher end luxury market is filled with people who turn over expensive luxury cars frequently, insisting on new cars and not caring about the loss on unloading them because they either just don't care or the purchase is funneled through their business and they can write off some of the depreciation, or it's an outright business expense (ie, car is leased for six months for some out of town muckety-muck they're trying to woo).

Re:Shitty refund policy

[ed1park]

I suppose you can liken it to taking a girls virginity. :)

downside of "fail fast"?

[Anonymous Coward]

So this Valley Girls fail fast philosophy is not a plus if the company if you know, actually makes the mistake of producing something tangible?

Re:downside of "fail fast"?

[deadweight]

Yes - fail often fail fast is great for a HTML editor. For actual mechanical devices that cost more than $10 - not so much.

Re:downside of "fail fast"?

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

For mechanical devices that go 80 miles an hour on the expressway and can kill Star Trek actors because of bad transmission UI design, it's awful.

Re:downside of "fail fast"?

[Actually, I do RTFA]

For mechanical devices that go 80 miles an hour on the expressway and can kill Star Trek actors because of bad transmission UI design, it's awful.

In some cases, it's criminal.

(On the part of the engineer who signed off on followed plans, or the person who modified the plans).

As a principle? What about in practice?

[bobbied]

So "As a principle, we are always willing to buy back a car...[when]... a customer isn't completely happy"

So much for principle if in practice somebody had to sue you to make you do it..

Re:As a principle? What about in practice?

[LordKronos]

They are willing to buy back, which is different than the 100% refund he probably wanted.

Re:As a principle? What about in practice?

[Anonymous Coward]

In principle, principle and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

Re: As a principle? What about in practice?

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFY: The 100% refund that lemon laws require.

How's that again?

[93 Escort Wagon]

... doors opened and closed unpredictably, smashing into his wife and other cars ...

The dude is married to a car?

I've heard of My Mother the Car , but this is a first.

Re:How's that again?

[Anonymous Coward]

... says the 93 Escort Wagon!

Re:How's that again?

[mcswell]

If a man without a woman is incomplete (as the Bible says), then I guess this guy decided to autocomplete.

Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

And I was just getting worried that it's been nearly a day before we went on and on about Tesla and His Holy Lordship Musk

Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[LWATCDR]

Exotic cars are bought by enthusiasts and they forgive problems that your average Honda buyer will not. The Model X and 3 are now going into the hands of none enthusiasts and even Consumer Reports has taken away it's recommend from the Tesla.
Surprise, making cars is hard.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Model X and 3 are now going into the hands of none enthusiasts

The 3, sure (excepting the "now" part on that), but I'm not sure anyone who'll drop a hundred grand - on one of the first batch of the first SUV from a manufacturer on its second mass-produced car model ever, no less - counts as a non-enthusiast.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that Tesla is pushing itself as a "luxury car" company (like Mercedes or Porsche) when in reality you're correct in that they're an "enthusiast car" company more like Caterham or those other British niche marketers.
The disconnect between marketing and reality is the issue Tesla needs to fix.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[fermion]

That your average Mercedes buyer will not forgive.

Anyone who owns a Honda ex-eats to make sacrifices for a cheap car.

Innovation does not excuse a crappy product. There is no way that a death trap seat is the result of innovation. It is the incompetence and arrogance of an inexperienced agent thinking they can make a car. Sort of like MS in security in the 1990's. Not being able to write software for doors in incompetence in embedded systems. Writing consumer embedded code is different from web server ode where it can be updated every day or rocket ship code where you have great control over the use case. There appears to be little engenuety here, just standard feature bloat.

In any case, as much hate dealers, this problem is a result of lack of reputable dealers. Like trying to solve a problem on a website, you have no ability to take someone that has a direct line to the manufacturer.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thw disconnect is in the head of Musk and his fans: from tfs: "Indeed, there's no disputing the fact that ... the company has completely turned the auto industry on its head." Come on, that's not a fact, but a wild, groundless speculation.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[hey!]

Well, I thought the door thing was overkill; as an engineer it struck me as a "neat" demo feature but a real potential PITA, and it turns out I was right.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[ArchieBunker]

Tesla finding out that building a car from scratch isn't as easy as it sounds.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Shompol]

Just watched the demo. How did he manage to hit his "wife and other cars" with those doors is beyond me. It opens slowly and goes mostly up. Sounds like a bullshit case and a smear campaign.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Carewolf]

The problem is that Tesla is pushing itself as a "luxury car"

Which they aren't.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1086476_tesla-model-s-isnt-a-luxury-car-so-stop-comparing-it-to-them

They cost the same as luxury cars, and only traditional buyers of luxury cars can afford them. So the comparison is apt, even if Tesla's are crap compared to luxury cars.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[AmiMoJo]

The front driver's side door has an auto-open feature when you come near it holding the key. The rear doors can be opened remotely or via the console in the car. There are supposed to be sensors that stop them bumping into things, but a few people have said on the forums that they don't always work.

It's the same with summon. There are sensors on the car, but there are also videos on YouTube of it running over stuffed animals standing in for children. Of course you are supposed to be paying attention yourself when using summon. The problem is that Tesla tends to hype features up and send them out as software updates, and then people use them without really reading TFM.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[mccalli]

Look how the demo is given next to another Model X. The Model X has a narrower top than the bottom, and it gives a fair amount of room at the top for this kind of things to happen - you can see the doors encroaching into the space above the widest point of the other car.

Now imagine if that other car wasn't a Model X. Perhaps it's an SUV, or a van. No such extra space at the top, nothing for those does to use. Result? Bang.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[LWATCDR]

You may be surprised just how much less reliable a Mercedes S class or BMW 7 series is than you average Honda is.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[deadweight]

No I wouldn't. I have had 2 Mercedes, one BMW, one Porsche, and 2 VWs. "Owner Financed Development" was something I learned about the hard way. The modern 7 series and their ilk are cars you NEVER NEVER EVER want to own out of warranty.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[NetNed]

Yeah, you don't see the problems like these with other exotic cars, probably because those companies have been making cars for a LONG time. The process gets perfected over time and quality tends to increase for the most part. The media wants to put Tesla on a pedestal all the time and claim he is revolutionizing how cars are built, which anyone that knows better knows this is utter bullshit. Tesla has used talent from Detroit and elsewhere to accomplish what they couldn't on their own, but if you believe the media bullshit you'd think he and his company came up with every aspect of his cars.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[quicks0rt]

You only need to see the stream of electric vehicle announcements other vehicle manufacturers have been making to realize that yes, Tesla has proven to the industry that there is a larger demand on electric vehicles than previously thought; that it is not merely a toy project, but a real threat going forward in coming decades. "Come on, that's not a fact, but a wild, groundless speculation." No, it's called reality my friend.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[fermion]

Mechanically, a Honda might be more reliable. On the other hand, early Hondas rusted thought and their door latches were fragile. Safety wise, like seats that move and doors that open randomly, Mercedes is likely a better choice.

Re:Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[Shompol]

I have never seen anyone park THAT close to other cars, if only to save the rear view mirrors. Then there is an issue of opening regular doors -- the driver does need to get out. I can only imagine this being an issue if it was done on purpose.

Re: Tesla is still an exotic car company.

[deadweight]

True - a 1980s Honda is not very safe compared to a 1980s Mercedes. Now in 2016.....not so much.

Come on

[Anonymous Coward]

He's totally gonna colonize Mars and stuff. Sure, airlocks will open, food won't dispense, but the species, this rock, exploration, etc etc etc

Re:happy owner

[Anonymous Coward]

astroturf!

Re: OMG bad Tesla car!

[Anonymous Coward]

Business as usual. Toyota makes and sells a lot of vehicles (like, millions vs. a few thousand teslas) with a significant profit, so that it can afford to budget money for the occasional minor issue that will slip through. Also, Toyota is likely to fix its process so that it won't happen again. In Musk's cottage factory, well... Comparing Tesla to Toyota is like comparing your local rocketry enthusiasts' club with NASA.

dealer miles; test drive miles

[Archfeld]

I totally agree, especially in the light of the fact that a dealer can drive your 'new' car around for several hundred miles with no 'depreciation', but the instant the purchaser drives away the car is suddenly worth less ? If there was any real basis for that issue I'd demand a car with ZERO miles on it.

Re:dealer miles; test drive miles

[swb]

I'm inclined to believe there's some real psychological value to a "new" car with very few miles on it, like maybe 5% of the cost of the car but I think that number has been declining over time as cars have become more reliable and durable.

If anything, cars with no diagnosable problems and something like 5-10,000 miles ought to be MORE valuable than a "new" car. They're still new from a wear and tear and lifespan perspective, but have been largely demonstrated to be free of faulty components and assembly and have more proven reliability than a car from the factory with 3/10 of a mile on the odometer.

Re:dealer miles; test drive miles

[Shompol]

Because the dealer does this to relocate your car, so you have to trust him like you would trust a valet. A private party reselling a car after only a year probably drove into a lake on it. If a significant share of buyers were sceptical of auto dealers then the dealers would never ever drive them, at the additional cost of having a truck shuttle new cars around.

Re:dealer miles; test drive miles

[someoneOtherThanMe]

but have been largely demonstrated to be free of faulty components and assembly and have more proven reliability than a car from the factory with 3/10 of a mile on the odometer.

As a buyer, you do not know that.

Also, as a used car buyer, you lose the ability to pick color, any extras, maybe even the engine is not the one you would have chosen yourself.

Re:dealer miles; test drive miles

[swb]

As a buyer, you do not know that.

Maybe not with a '79 Chevy you don't, but with any *modern* car you take it to a good mechanic and run an ECM diagnostic, compression test and look for any broken suspension components or evidence of repair and you'll know really well what kind of condition its in.

Plus with any late model car (1-2 years old) it still carries the bulk of the factory warranty and most dealer-sold cars are certified and carry an extension of the factory bumper to bumper warranty. Unless its a total lemon (unlikely in my experience), there's almost no mechanical risk if you do your homework.

Also, as a used car buyer, you lose the ability to pick color, any extras, maybe even the engine is not the one you would have chosen yourself.

Unless you're just buying the first one off the lot you find, of course you do. You either shop for the color and trim level/options you want or you go to the damn dealer and tell the used car manager what you want and they will find it for you. Here in Minneapolis we have a used only car dealership that does this. We emailed a salesman what specific Acura MDX we wanted and within two weeks it was on hand in the color and options we wanted. 1 year old, 12,000 miles on the clock and $8,000 less than a brand new model. Absolutely mint condition.

If you have a bee in your bonnet for some weird factory-ordered combination of features you can only find in a new car, you will be paying for that privilege in spades from a new dealer anyway. You will have little flexibility in price and will probably pay a premium for that. That's fine if you're buying a collectible car or what you need for your life to be complete, but otherwise there's little reason for that because all the options you would likely want already are built into most anyway. The maker already know what options people want and put them into standard trim levels. Even if some widget is missing, it's often cheaper to buy without it and find the factory part cheap on the internet and have it installed with a common trim level.

Fallacies

[Princeofcups]

"there's no disputing"

Since when does Slashdot allow logical fallacies in the summaries?

Re:Fallacies

[Narcocide]

Now under their 3rd independent corporate ownership. I notice there are a lot bigger ads and a lot less trustworthy advertising partners too now.

Business 2016

[fluffernutter]

The new way of doing business... screw people over and hide behind the promise of technological innovation. Are we that desperate for new technology that we are willing to allow companies to break long held assumptions about not taking a customer's money if they are not satisfied?

Re:"Quietly" settling

[fluffernutter]

Honest companies don't let products this bad get to market.

Re:Quality Failure

[Narcocide]

Where were you with this argument when everyone is being a Windows10/Microsoft apologist?

quality

[siamesevodka]

Think family truckster Clark!

Re:happy owner

[Shompol]

I noticed a few negative posts with outlandish claims against Tesla appearing within seconds after every Tesla-related post. If this is an astroturf then this is the first pro-tesla one that I have seen.

Information asymmetry = depreciation

[sjbe]

I totally agree, especially in the light of the fact that a dealer can drive your 'new' car around for several hundred miles with no 'depreciation', but the instant the purchaser drives away the car is suddenly worth less ?

The biggest reason for this is the problem of information asymmetry. When the dealer sells you a "new" car, that carries certain warranties and guarantees of condition along with it. You can reasonably assume that the vehicle hasn't been used for drag racing and that even with a few tens of miles on it that it is for all practical purposes is as good as the factory can make it and you cannot find one in meaningfully better condition anywhere. The moment you drive it off the lot as a new owner all that information about how the car has been used is immediately lost. We have no idea how you as the new owner have treated the vehicle or how it has held up or what problems you might have experienced. A new buyer has no idea why you are selling it and even if you tell them they can't be sure you aren't lying. Ergo, the vehicle is worth less than before because of that information asymmetry.

Basically if you are selling a car with 1,000 miles on it, the buyer has to ask why you are selling it with so few miles. Is there something wrong with the car? The buyer can never be sure and so the buyer's willingness to pay will generally be less than it might be for a "new" vehicle.

Software development model doesn't work for cars

[zerofoo]

Release early and often simply does not work in the real world with physical goods that have warranties and other assorted legal obligations.

I salute the software industry for writing EULAs that absolve the manufacturers of any responsibility for defects - that was an amazing coup - and resulted in software products sucking terribly.

Applying these types of practices to stuff like cars is going to get these companies sued - as Tesla is now figuring out.

That said, I am not canceling my Model 3 reservation. I'm a tech guy and I'm willing to live with bugs to get something really interesting. Time will tell if the general public is willing to make such accommodations.

You can never be sure

[sjbe]

Maybe not with a '79 Chevy you don't, but with any *modern* car you take it to a good mechanic and run an ECM diagnostic, compression test and look for any broken suspension components or evidence of repair and you'll know really well what kind of condition its in.

Not necessarily true. It's not terribly hard to hide many mechanical problems. And many problems can be "repaired" without leaving a shred of evidence. And even the best mechanic may not find every problem with a vehicle. Sure, some things are obvious but many aren't. Intermittent electrical problems are something I've dealt with on a few VW vehicles I've had but no mechanic would be likely to run into them. I've sold several cars that I considered to be unreliable but you'd never know it even with a fairly detailed inspection.

Let me give you an example I saw about 15 years ago on how problems can be hid. A guy I used to work with had a car that had some cylinders that were making bad noise and showing signs of impending failure. He decided he needed some new wheels so what he did was to get a couple of quarts of motor honey which temporarily hid the problem. Then he drove it straight to the dealer, negotiated for a new vehicle, trade in his "runs great" car, and drove away with a new vehicle. Now the dealer examined the car but they didn't notice the problem and the dealer had their people inspect the vehicle, including mechanics. And I'm not surprised the problem got overlooked. Unless the dealer was willing to do a compression test and a few other tests as well, they wouldn't find the problem nor was there any hint that the vehicle was in bad condition.

Plus with any late model car (1-2 years old) it still carries the bulk of the factory warranty and most dealer-sold cars are certified and carry an extension of the factory bumper to bumper warranty. Unless its a total lemon (unlikely in my experience), there's almost no mechanical risk if you do your homework.

Typically these days the amount of depreciation is more dependent on the brand and model than anything else. Toyota's will depreciate less than Fords as a general proposition. Certain models of car will depreciate barely at all while others lose their value faster than a gallon of milk.

Re:You can never be sure

[swb]

I guess it depends on the mechanic you use.

When I bought my Volvo, I sought an independent Volvo-specific shop. The car was "Volvo Certified" which meant it had been gone over by their people and as a lease return under warranty from that same dealership, they also had the complete service history of the car (which they printed out for me). Since it was a lease and under warranty, the previous owner had zero incentive to hide defects and since it had an additional 4 years of warranty (2+2) there was little reason for the dealer to sell it with problems since they would be eating the problems.

That being said, my independent pre-inspection mechanic noted that the bumper fascia had been replaced -- he showed the parts label mismatches between the original labels throughout the car and the replacement part and where trim tab hardware was different vintage. Due the absence of any notable collision damage, their estimation was the front end got cosmetically dinged in a parking lot and the owner paid out of pocket for the bodywork vs. the insurance claim which would get tied back to the car's history and possibly affect lease return.

With a little bluster, I turned that into another $750 off my negotiated price since I could point out the alteration and beat them up over the "value" of their certified inspection.

At a certain point, though, modern cars have so many sensors that it's pretty hard for something to be seriously flawed without it throwing codes. A decent shop that can read vendor codes (my shop had the same factory diagnostics as the dealer) can identify even minor problems that aren't visible, and with a compression test and a good and detailed visual inspection for mechanical flaws it's really hard to hide a whole lot of serious problems. Maybe not impossible, but between that and the warranty you'd be hard pressed to have a lemon.

With a brand new car? It's anyone's guess until 10,000 miles. I've known two people recently with bought-new problem cars. One ended up suing the dealer and getting a complete refund and the other the dealer just admitted it was a problem car and gave them a replacement.

Re:You can never be sure

[Drethon]

Like the '08 impala with 15k miles I test drove a few years back at a used car dealer. It idled at 2k RPMs when most impalas were in the 500-750 range. I thanked them for the test drive and haven't gone back to that dealer since then.

hard lessons

[Gravis Zero]

I think Telsa has learned some hard lessons from the Model X. They promised too many features without enough time and in the end resulted in an inferior product. They may be software bugs but when your software controls hardware, it has real consequences. I also hope they learned to not fight people trying to get a refund because there is no benefit in fighting it.

Re: "Quietly" settling

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhhh what fucking planet are you from?

Can I sue hyundai when I slam the door on my hand?

[Shadow of Eternity]

Or is it just Tesla that gets held to a standard no other car manufacturer is held to.

Anyone notice the light in the video?

[Muntzsky]

Watch the video linked in the summary and the moment before the car stops, a light comes on in the garage. This light probably messes with the cameras/sensors. Not making any excuses for Tesla, just making an observation.

Re:Lemons

[Coren22]

All the pictures are of people getting into accidents, except the last one which was an example of an actual issue with a sensor dead spot found by an idiot that doesn't know which side of the road to park on or how not to engage the autopark feature when parking. Hint, the trailer was hit in the front where the 5th wheel pin is, which means the car is parked backwards.

Re:"Quietly" settling

[Coren22]

So, I guess you never buy anything?

My mother, the car?

[abmw]

Well, it does say in the article, "smashing into his wife and other cars", Maybe it also smashed into a certain Ford Model A made famous in the 1950's and 60's....Mother???

Don't buy. Rent

[ForMeToPoopOn]

I always drive leased cars, using 3 or 4 years contracts. I now drive a Toyota, leased by Toyota Financial, I always check it for regular maintenance at the same dealership that leased it to me. If there's a problem with the car, it's Toyota's problem...

New VS used

[phorm]

" I've bought used cars with 20k miles on them that were indistinguishable from new cars cosmetically and in every way practically measurable without disassembly"

You answered your own question in the last part. Yes, a car with 20,000 miles might look new, and be functionally intact. Realistically, you don't know what's happened since it left the lot. It's actually not all that hard to replace certain parts of a car to hide damage from a vehicular accident, but that accident could leave other issues that will cause you pain later down the road, whether it's a core frame component with damage that slows grows over time, or a dent/crease that was well filled and painted but later starts to rust out.

I'm not generally huge on new VS used, but at least with new I have a fairly good assurance that I'm getting a vehicle which is accident-free and hasn't had some form of "tinkering" from stock.

Re:Can I sue hyundai when I slam the door on my ha

[Actually, I do RTFA]

When Hyundai installs auto-door slammers, and then their hand detection unit fails to notice your hand in the way, of course you'll sue.

Re:Lemons

[Coren22]

Uh huh, and you will be driving nothing in 20 years since you refuse to drive electrics.

Also, there is a pretty decent definition of Lemon, and you have abused it without reason.