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Blizzard Sues Overwatch 'Cheat' Maker For Copyright Infringement (torrentfreak.com)
From a TorrentFreak report: Blizzard Entertainment is suing Bossland, the maker of the popular Overwatch cheat tool "Watchover Tyrant" and several other game cheats. Among other things, the developer accuses the German company of various forms of copyright infringement and unfair competition. Blizzard is not happy with the Overwatch cheat and has filed a lawsuit against the German maker, Bossland GMBH, at a federal court in California. Bossland also sells cheats for various other titles such as World of Warcraft, Diablo 3 and Heroes of the Storm, which are mentioned in the complaint as well. The game developer accuses the cheat maker of various forms of copyright infringement, unfair competition, and violating the DMCA's anti-circumvention provision. According to Blizzard these bots and cheats also cause millions of dollars in lost sales, as they ruin the games for many legitimate players. "Moreover, by releasing 'Overwatch Cheat' just days after the release of 'Overwatch,' Defendants are attempting to destroy or irreparably harm that game before it even has had a chance to fully flourish."
Titan fall was (may be it's yet) impossible to play on Brazilian servers cause of cheaters, good to see someone cares about their business.
German maker, Bossland GMBH....violating the DMCA's anti-circumvention provision
How would that work? Germans are not subject to the DMCA, which is an American law.
They say that the cheaters are ruing the game for many legitimate players, but if these players are legitimate, then they have, in fact, already bought the game, and so the cheaters can't actually be causing lost sales.
It might discourage people who aren't cheating from playing the game, of course... but they don't say that, they explicitly use the term "lost sales". I'm not sure how that can possibly be true.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
...playing TF2 for free. Later, Blizz!
brwski
"Because without beer, things do not seem to go as well''
Maybe they should work harder at cheat-proofing their games. If cheaters can so easily ruin the game for others, then they should perhaps design their games more robustly. Imagine if banking systems worked this way: they only way your bank can protect money in your account is to launch lawsuits at "cheat sites" which tell people how to steal money from other people's accounts. If their systems were designed that poorly, no one would have any money left in their bank accounts. Perhaps similar security practices should be applied to game design.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
What about Blizzard's negligence in providing any sort of anti-cheat capability, or in allowing their code to be easily circumvented with decades old techniques...
Or maybe anti social dorks shouldn't make it so that entertainment requires banking level security to keep these losers from ruining the fun for everyone else. The fault lies with the cheats not the manufacturers.
"And your honor, my peeing on feet at the urinals and spilling my beer on everyone in the stands at the hockey game did absolutely NOTHING to ruin sales from current attendees, as they had already bought their tickets"
Something that detracts from the quality of a product/service tends to discourage future purchases from the same vendor, or new users from purchasing once it becomes common and word gets around.
Players quitting earlier == less microtransactions. Not all players will spend money on them of course but some will.
don't set a bad precedent that car manufacturers can use the same line in locking out 3rd party shops.
They can say that 3rd party parts and shops are hurting our income.
If you cheat banks, you go to jail
They have a right to police their servers. They have a right to prevent cheats from functioning. They have a right to ban players for using cheat systems.
They do NOT have a right to sue because it's their own responsibility to build software checks and balances that would prevent cheating but THEY ARE TOO TIGHTFISTED to do so. That would cost money. That would require hiring enough competent coders and paying beta testers a living wage.
Blizzard "Entertainment" lost my faith completely, long ago, since the Wrath of the Lich King WOW expansion. They are morons who are managed by people who hate gamers and want to break gamers down rather than offer something fun and enjoyable. The rule at Blizzard is that if something is fun, they must find a way to remove or break the fun. Fuck those guys.
I hope this company gets the court venue switch to somewhere neutral, because California will try and convict with prejudice, regardless of the law or moral inadequacy.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
They should sue themselves, because by releasing 'Overwatch Open Beta' just days *BEFORE* the release of 'Overwatch,' Plaintiffs are attempting to destroy or irreparably harm their own game before it even has had a chance to fully flourish.
If you're going to make a shitty rip-off of a ten-year old game, sell it *before* you let people play it.
and something that interferes with a controlled driving experience. We can just put stuff in the cars like an force limp home mode if you don't have the dealer use there software to reset the oil change counter.
So put some servers in Germany and let them do as they will. Ban German networks from hitting any other servers and done.
The problem will solve itself, no lawyers needed.
-Don't even say VPN. Works great for Netflix and the like, not so much for low latency requirements.
Most games can be played by a bot better than by a human, the hard part in making a decent AI opponent is to make them beatable without making them a pushover.
Pfff. Not everyone plays Alpha / Beta for the same reasons. Many are looking for bugs they can turn into $ via their "cheat" program post launch.
be violating the EULA in the process of making their software work? Is it even possible to do a 'clean room' implementation of something like this? If nothing else the crazy broad anti-hacking laws can be invoked. But I suspect Blizzard would prefer not to do that since it makes it a criminal matter. That's not just bad press. I honestly think nobody wants that.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Hurting revenue is not the basis in law for the suit, it is the basis of restitution and harm proving merit of the suit for standing. Although copyright has statutory damages and statutory rights to sue, most other cases need to show standing. These lawyers are throwing everything possible out to ensure something sticks.
I hate blizzard as much as the next guy, what they've done in WoD/Legion is a war crime, and I'm not sure why their designer and VP haven't been fired. It takes some brass balls to see your subscriber base drop off the charts, then simply stop talking about your subscribers and not telling your investors how badly you are managing things. String them all up and let the vultures at them.
That said, the anti-cheat arms race has been going on now for 20 years, and the defense side has never won. I don't think Blizzard can do anything effective. One way or another, someone will build a better cheat, it is impossible to stop. In fact at a certain level beating the cheat becomes more fun than the game, much like some "hackers" enjoy finding exploits just because they can, not because they intend to steal, defraud or vandalize.
Or maybe anti social dorks shouldn't make it so that entertainment requires banking level security to keep these losers from ruining the fun for everyone else. The fault lies with the cheats not the manufacturers.
That would be a perfectly valid philosophy in a situation with a small population of people that know each other. Most people are honest, and most people don't want to be the jerk that screws things up for everybody. But that kind of thinking doesn't scale to large populations, especially where the "anonymity" of the Internet is concerned. There are people in the world, admittedly a small minority, that actually enjoy making life miserable for others. And if you have a sufficiently large population, it will include some of the those people. So building software with proper security shouldn't be limited just to banks.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
then you shouldn't have released the game. -_-
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Completely different! Cracks for Windows activation allow people to use Windows without paying for it; people using the cheat still have to buy Overwatch and pay Blizzard for access to their servers. This is more akin to writing software that makes certain Windows tasks easier, something a good many companies make an absolute killing doing, perfectly legally.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Generally, that's more of a reflection of a flaw in the person that needs to cheat to have fun than it is of a flaw in the game.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
You really can't build games like you build bank systems.
Banks don't care about things like smooth game play in the face of latency, dropped packets, server main loop update bottlenecks, etc.
Yes, a bank can implement a proper client-server architecture that never trusts the clients.
Given the limitations of the speed of light and modern computers you really can't do that for games and have an enjoyable entertainment experience.
In my experience, multiplayer games have to trust the client to some degree and are much better off doing deferred cheating checks, memory scanning anti-cheat, and statistics to get rid of cheaters after they cheat rather than make the game unplayable for everyone and prevent cheating in the first place.
Just imagine having an fps game that had a captcha you had to fill out every time you tried to shoot your gun so that you could prove you were a human.
They are now services. One that the publisher regulates, and may discontinue at any time. The EULA might as well be called the "terms of service".
Ok, but none of those things are illegal, and shouldn't be. Claiming DMCA infringement is disingenuous.
Why shouldn't Blizzard have a means to deny people from engaging in this conduct on their servers? Do they not have rights?
*facepalms* Um wut? Saying that suing the people making cheats under the DMCA is dangerous is not saying they can't keep people from cheating on their servers. What kind of stupid guff is that?
If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
The problem is that no matter how many people Blizzard sues, the cheat still exists, and more cheats will come.
Blizzards solution has to be to find and eliminate the exploits.
That said, I don't have much sympathy for Blizzard "losing sales". Even with the Field of View slider they implemented, they have the FOV maximum locked low enough that people with motion sickness can't play the game. Reading through forums on Overwatch, it seems that the FOV settings might even be over-exagerated, with 103 being more equivalent to a setting of 90 in other first person shooters.
Blizzard does realize california cant dictate laws in Germany? Nor does Germany have any sort of DMCA laws... In fact most of europe allows reverse engineering in order to make compatible software, witch cheat software clearly is....
At the very least, the cheat makers are guilty of the "unfair competition" claim; it's their main selling point ;)
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I would compare using a bot (with its improved reflexes, perfect aim etc.) to using doping in sports.
Try doing that and see how far you get after a blood test.
It is about having a level playing field where it is personal skill that determines your success, not whether you come up against a near-perfect computer program instead of another human.
Full disclosure: Never played Overwatch, not my preferred kind of game. I do believe in fairness, however. And I just can't wrap my head around why people would pay for a game, pay to play that game, and then pay MORE for a program so they DON'T have to play that game.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
You are talking about a company that took three years to add extra deckslots to a card game
I have always been puzzled by people subscribing to a game, then cheating. I can understand the temptation to cheat a little to get over a hurdle that seems impossible, surely the pleasure of playing a game lies in knowing that you have achieved it all, or most of it, simply by your own effort? How much fun would it be to get a professional chess player to play for you right up to the last move, just before you say 'check mate'?
This is the new normal in multiplayer gaming though—a rapidly growing portion don't see past their own personal enjoyment... which also coincidentally happens to be ruining the game for others.
Okay, I can go with that. How often does, for example, the IOC sue drug companies?
Full disclosure: Never played Overwatch, I prefer much more casual games, though I do get something of a kick out of watching others (of any skill level; I often find myself as much in awe of pepoles' mistakes in games as I do their successes) play these types of games. That said, also never watched Overwatch.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
The difference is that drug companies make a bunch of good and totally legit stuff.
Bossland's business model is literally to create programs that circumvent the rules of computer games to a point where the players not paying Bossland for the cheat are essentially held ransom as they can't realistically compete.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
How is it the manufacturer's fault for not writing perfect code? Writing perfect code is really hard and expensive. It's a game, not an investment bank.
Forget Blizzard getting off their lazy asses and fixing these problems, let's just go after those who find and exploit Blizzard's sloppy work....
I think those guys...and yes they are almost ALL young men, should lose their internet connections.
Or failing that, their IP (and voice chat) should be logged, the ISP contacted, and a call made to their location.
"Hello, Smith residence? This is Blizzard, one of the computers at your location was logged as cheating and being a general Internet Fuckwad in our game Overwatch. Here's some of the voice chat"
Blizzard plays bit of homophobic "shitcock" style speech.
"Oh, that's your son? Well doing what your son has been doing is actually against your ISP's TOS....they could cancel your service."
Blizzard rep listens while a modern version of the Christmas Story scene where Schwartz gets punished for supposedly teaching Ralphie the Eff Dash Dash Dash word plays out in the background
I think private servers, where only a small population of people that know each other has access, would help here.
Sadly, very few games these days offer such things. In the 90s and early 2000s, many games came with software that allowed to host your own multiplayer server, but today this seems to be the exception.
Blizzard in particular has a history of trying to prevent this kind of self-help, see the bnetd lawsuit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnetd). Which makes them arguably part of the problem.
C - the footgun of programming languages
Allow us to run dedicated servers and moderate them our self, like in the old days.
Then cheating software will be less effective for the general public as active servers will moderate them self and the players will be less bothered by them.
- Don't do what I do, it's probably not healthy nor safe. -
Whatever overwatch tyrant is doing, it is merely exploiting design weaknesses in the published interface for third party devs. It is not an MMO Gider; Blizz can't leverage the DCMA, but Blizz could and did claim tortious interference against MDY (the company the created and sold MMO Glider to hundreds of thousands of WoW players.) Blizz extracted $6M in damages after its claims of tortious interference against MDY were upheld, and I won't be surprised if Blizz makes the same claim against the makers of overwatch tyrant.
And that is why Blizz is on the wrong side of this. Knowing where enemies and friends are in a game where combat is a significant part of the experience would be a decided advantage, so Blizz probably should have considered that and shut down (read: made private) that part of the published interface that exposed location information. If you are going to open up the interface to encourage third party devs (yay Blizz!) don't complain when the more unscrupulous segments of the dev community decide to try to exploit your generosity for their own gain.
Overwatch tyrant is not doing anything that Blizz's game developers didn't let it do, and now that it is commercially successful, Blizz wants a piece of it and is trying to get by law what it couldn't get through good design.
Anti-cheating and DRM both have some performance implications, and - depending on how you do it - this may especially affect server vs client and network communication.
Now obvious one rule if you want something to be *really* secure is "never trust the client." However, in gaming the client is going to be the one with the fancy video card and/or other hardware. If you can't run something on the client, you need to run it on the server, which means
* Potentially really beefy server/hardware requirements
* Increased network traffic (for all the extra data that's not processed locally)
Too much of the above, and you have a platform that's simply cannot run in real-time. The only way you'd have a game that's 100% uncheatable would be if it essentially ran it all on the remote server and did remote display, which would obviously be crazy in terms of bandwidth and lag.
It's different from something like banking, email, etc where you essentially have a transactional experience. In those cases the client can be almost like a dumb terminal and you can do all your checks-and-balances on the server side.
I wonder how they're going to force a German company appear in courtin the US, hehe.
This is exactly why we have trade agreements with other countries, although I have no idea if our trade agreements with Germany or the EU specifically cover this case.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
The difference is that software companies make a bunch of good and totally legit stuff.
See what I did there? In case you didn't: I pointed out the gaping hold in your argument.
Now, compare Bossland to the drug company making the black-market anabolics. See my point yet?
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
I cheat all the time in video games. Why, just a few minutes ago I reloaded my saved game so that I could retry the fight I lost.
Cheating is perfectly acceptable, in context.
And that would be an actionable lie. So yeah, that's retarded.
If you closely read the TOS of many ISPs you will find that violating a TOS of a service provider/hack/etc is also considered a violation of the ISP's TOS.
Completely different! Cracks for Windows activation allow people to use Windows without paying for it; people using the cheat still have to buy Overwatch and pay Blizzard for access to their servers. This is more akin to writing software that makes certain Windows tasks easier, something a good many companies make an absolute killing doing, perfectly legally.
Actually, it's not like that at all, what it is like, if you want another real-world comparison, is this:
... well they're gonna pay some huge fines and go to jail, automatically, cause they broke the governments ToS. As Blizzard isn't the government and they're enforcing their own ToS they need to go through the courts themselves to get the appropriate result.
It's like a company that analyses speed trap cameras, and then makes a device that fools the cameras into thinking you are not speeding when you are.
All the other drivers on the road who aren't using this (illegal) device are impacted by those who do - destroying honest driver's road experience, making it unsafe, etc.
The company making these devices
Now if they lose, we (gamers) are in for dark times. Why would companies bother making quality products if they have no recourse to hackers and abusers?
And it'd be a legal precedent that'd quickly be applied to areas outside of gaming.... But Blizzard aren't going to lose, cause they're just following proper business and legal practices.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
The difference is that software companies make a bunch of good and totally legit stuff.
See what I did there? In case you didn't: I pointed out the gaping hold in your argument. Now, compare Bossland to the drug company making the black-market anabolics. See my point yet?
Black market antibiotics are made without regulation, and are one of the largest contributors to antibiotic resistance.
Assuming they were making good clean helpful drugs, then they aren't like Bossland, who aren't helping.
It's like blizzard built a carpark, charged everyone $5 to park there, then some unaffiliated company sets up out front, stops people driving in, and offers them "easy parking service" for $10, pockets the money, drives round back, in through a no-public-access service entrance, then starts parking the cars wherever they like, blocking other genuine customers parking.
Damn straight blizzard will march out front, tell them to take off, and that if they stop breaking the lock on the private entrance and bringing cars in illegally, oh, and all that money you've been collecting, taking out of our pocket, we want restitution for that too.
See what I did there? I pointed out gaping holes in your argument. Now compare bossland to the 'unaffiliated company' profiting off blizzard's infrastructure. See everyone else's point yet?
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
Black market antibiotics are made without regulation, and are one of the largest contributors to antibiotic resistance.
Assuming they were making good clean helpful drugs, then they aren't like Bossland, who aren't helping.
I said anabolics, as in steroids, not antibiotics. And they're helping cheaters cheat, which is exactly what Bossland is doing.
It's like blizzard built a carpark, charged everyone $5 to park there, then some unaffiliated company sets up out front, stops people driving in, and offers them "easy parking service" for $10, pockets the money, drives round back, in through a no-public-access service entrance, then starts parking the cars wherever they like, blocking other genuine customers parking.
In your example, you've got someone standing outside the parking garage and collecting money in the course of depriving Blizzard of sales while, at the same time, depriving Blizzard of resources they build and maintain (parking spaces). While Bossland does charge for their software, said software does not allow access to Blizzard's services without paying (Blizzard) for them, nor does it deprive "legitimate" (defined by me as someone who pays for access, thereby including users of Bossland's software; if you have another definition, let's hear it) users of access.
Damn straight blizzard will march out front, tell them to take off, and that if they stop breaking the lock on the private entrance and bringing cars in illegally, oh, and all that money you've been collecting, taking out of our pocket, we want restitution for that too.
They're breaking no locks, users of Bossland's software pay Blizzard for access and connect to Blizzard's servers using Blizzard's software, the same way everyone else does. They're not taking money out of Blizzard's pockets, as Blizzard is still getting paid. So there's no restitution to be had, no matter how bad Blizzard (and you) may want there to be.
See what I did there?
I sure do, but I'm sure you'll see it differently.
I pointed out gaping holes in your argument.
No, you really didn't.
Now compare bossland to the 'unaffiliated company' profiting off blizzard's infrastructure.
You mean like a 3rd-party computer repair shop or car mechanic? Those businesses actually do deprive OEM repair facilities of sales, yet they're completely legal. Meanwhile, Bossland is actually not depriving Blizzard of anything... so...
See everyone else's point yet?
Funny you should ask, I was just in the middle of answering. No.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Perhaps your game is not very good.
OK, so some of the worst games of all time are Chess and now Go. Do I follow your logic correctly? I think I did.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
Bullshit.
Very, very few AI's are hard to beat because they are "better players". Most win because they cheat massively (unlimited resources etc.), or simply because it micromanages on an inhuman level because it can click more times per second than any human possibly could while constantly have full awareness of everything going on - even things it shouldn't.
Exactly, that's why we call people who use these bots and "tools" cheats.
The bots _are_ "better players" precisely because they do cheat and can react much faster than a human (interesting point: it's the reaction time that's most relevant)
When creating intentional AI enemies, the developers are totally aware that their AIs cheat as compared to their human players, and it's the balancing of this "cheating edge" that developers tweak to make a balanced game (Because, as it turns out, hiring real humans who don't need to cheat to play all the NPC characters real time is a little bit cost-prohibitive, unless you turn it into a competition between the real players and... oh yeah that's what they did for the main game)
tlrd: the definition of "better player" is open to discussion.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
Or maybe anti social dorks shouldn't make it so that entertainment requires banking level security to keep these losers from ruining the fun for everyone else. The fault lies with the cheats not the manufacturers.
I'm a programmer and have done a lot of security work for banks (American and Australian, mostly)
While giving any specifics would probably land me in jail or at least with a hefty fine, I can assure you that Blizzard has a far better level of security than many/most banking systems. The truth is appallingly scary.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
How is it the manufacturer's fault for not writing perfect code? Writing perfect code is really hard and expensive. It's a game, not an investment bank.
^This
Assuming writing "perfect code" was even possible (It's not), and assuming this would be a base requirement for producing an enjoyable game (It's not) the investment required would mean you'd be paying more for your copy of Overwatch than you did for your car, which (I assume) relatively few would be willing to do.
So our options here are threefold:
1) stop making software, as it can't be perfect.
2) assume everyone is/will cheat, and make it part of the game (then it wouldn't be overwatch or competitive or enjoyable - again noone would buy it or play it)
3) Use whatever legal resources are available to protect your intellectual property and prosecute those who both devalue _and_ profit off of your work
I know which one I'd pick.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
This is the new normal in multiplayer gaming though—a rapidly growing portion don't see past their own personal enjoyment... which also coincidentally happens to be ruining the game for others.
:s/multiplayer gaming/life/
:s/new/same old/
ftfy.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
>"Oh, that's your son? Well doing what your son has been doing is actually against your ISP's TOS....they could cancel your service."
And that would be an actionable lie. So yeah, that's retarded.
Blizzard needs to allow private dedicated servers like games used to have. They don't like that, so they should have to deal with the resulting fallout.
Yeah, I'm also pissed that microsoft won't let me host my own copy of Win Server 2012 as I like. They claim it's their intellectual property or some such crap. So unfair I can't use all their hard work for myself however I like, and even profit off it myself.
It's like some people think if I want to have my own game server I should have to build my own game server, or find one someone is happy and willing to sell me, and pay for that.
And don't forget, having my own dedicated modifiable server would allow me to help fragment the playerbase, and subvert the in game expectations of players, so that fair competition (the single core purpose of the software) is unachievable.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
I think that went over your head... Try reading the post again - keyword "imagine"...
Personally I think he* is partially right, the DMCA and associated shit shouldn't be used for something like this. If a game developer have a persistent world where money transactions are involved (subscription fees should be enough) they should also be required to make cheats and security intrusions (almost**) impossible. Maybe not to the degree that they should be considered banks but something close to that would be logical. Many hacks in games are due to a fundamentally fucked up development environment, hacking instead of developing mostly due to pressures to deliver something rather than deliver something working.
(* sexist, most likely true) (** given the current state of art for programming almost impossible is the best possible level of security)
OK, do me a favour, and remember that Blizzard is a for-profit company. Done that? Good. Now try to take the perspective of someone trying to ensure this company continues to profit. A little tougher? Got it yet? Good. OK, so now, you tell your devs you want "almost impossible" security, but to still make a profit. This is where you might imagine a kindly dev pointing out that there's this thing called "diminishing returns" that applies particularly well here, and they tell you that with the budget allowed, they've got as close to "almost impossible" as they can already. Getting "closer" will mean spending significantly more time (exponentially, actually) and turn those profits inside out. Now pretend you want to keep your job, and go hire a lawyer to stop these thieves like every other company in a similar situation does.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
Black market antibiotics are made without regulation, and are one of the largest contributors to antibiotic resistance. Assuming they were making good clean helpful drugs, then they aren't like Bossland, who aren't helping.
I said anabolics, as in steroids, not antibiotics. And they're helping cheaters cheat, which is exactly what Bossland is doing.
OK, I stand corrected on antibiotics vs anabiotics/whatever they're illegally producing but it doesn't change in any way my point - black market drugs are unregulated, and untested by the proper authorities, and as such unsafe, regardless of what they are, and they were developed at great cost by a different company who would like to recoup their cost legally by selling what they developed legally, etc... so sure, nitpick all you like.
My first point stands
It's like blizzard built a carpark, charged everyone $5 to park there, then some unaffiliated company sets up out front, stops people driving in, and offers them "easy parking service" for $10, pockets the money, drives round back, in through a no-public-access service entrance, then starts parking the cars wherever they like, blocking other genuine customers parking.
In your example, you've got someone standing outside the parking garage and collecting money in the course of depriving Blizzard of sales while, at the same time, depriving Blizzard of resources they build and maintain (parking spaces). While Bossland does charge for their software, said software does not allow access to Blizzard's services without paying (Blizzard) for them, nor does it deprive "legitimate" (defined by me as someone who pays for access, thereby including users of Bossland's software; if you have another definition, let's hear it) users of access.
Bossland is using private methods of access explicitly against the ToS to give game players access to more than blizzard gave those players rights or access to, and are charging these players for this access. Blizzard's regular customers are being impacted and receiving a worse experience, bossland is making a profit off blizzard's intellectual property.
So my first point stands.
Damn straight blizzard will march out front, tell them to take off, and that if they stop breaking the lock on the private entrance and bringing cars in illegally, oh, and all that money you've been collecting, taking out of our pocket, we want restitution for that too.
They're breaking no locks, users of Bossland's software pay Blizzard for access and connect to Blizzard's servers using Blizzard's software, the same way everyone else does. They're not taking money out of Blizzard's pockets, as Blizzard is still getting paid. So there's no restitution to be had, no matter how bad Blizzard (and you) may want there to be.
They hacked into blizzard's code, and use a modified version of it to generate an overlay showing the intentionally hidden information. So yes, they've broken into overwatch. Their customers of course pay for their original copy of the game, and then pay bossland to hack it for them. Their resulting versions ruin the game for legal customers, which means that prospective legal customers will be less likely to purchase it. So yes, they have made money off blizzard's back that has resulted in blizzard losing money, the basic premise that restitution addresses.
Still failing to actually add anything pertinent to the discussion or make much sense here mate.... but lets keep going:
See what I did there?
I sure do, but I'm sure you'll see it differently.
OK, I guess you didn't so I'll explain: I laid your argument out and pointed out all the gaping holes in it, which is what you attempted to do, but failed at. Unfortunately, I used logic and reasoning, and you're too busy playing semantics and pedant
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
OK, I stand corrected on antibiotics vs anabiotics/whatever they're illegally producing but it doesn't change in any way my point - black market drugs are unregulated, and untested by the proper authorities, and as such unsafe, regardless of what they are, and they were developed at great cost by a different company who would like to recoup their cost legally by selling what they developed legally, etc... so sure, nitpick all you like.
My first point stands
Actually, the anabolic steroids are legally produced, they're either prescribed for off-label uses or obtained illegally, but neither of those are the fault of the companies legally producing them. Their illegal use (again, not the fault of the manufacturer) is against the rules of basically every professional athletic association in the world, but that's between the athletes and the associations, not the associations and the drug companies. If your point stands it's not supported by this argument.
Bossland is using private methods of access explicitly against the ToS to give game players access to more than blizzard gave those players rights or access to, and are charging these players for this access. Blizzard's regular customers are being impacted and receiving a worse experience, bossland is making a profit off blizzard's intellectual property.
Did you even google "Watchover Tyrant" to see what it actually does or how it works? It's an overlay, it reads from the RAM used by the game on the user's local system and draws a graphical overlay on top of the game; it doesn't control the player or enhance the player's health, armor, or weapons in any way. It's literally just a graphical overlay. It doesn't use Blizzard's servers in any way, nor does it use "private methods of access", it simply reads (and doesn't write) game RAM. It's questionable whether this violates the ToS in any way, as Overwatch and WoW have the same ToS and similar add-ons for WoW exist with Blizzard's blessing. Where Blizzard draws the line is writing to game RAM, injecting mouse or keyboard commands into the game (though some macro add-ons exist, which do this with Blizzard's blessing) or communicating with the game servers directly. Even if it is, in fact, a ToS violation, that's not a legal or civil matter and Blizzard's recourse is to terminate the offending account(s). Again, if your point does, in fact, stand, it is not supported by this argument.
They hacked into blizzard's code, and use a modified version of it to generate an overlay showing the intentionally hidden information. So yes, they've broken into overwatch. Their customers of course pay for their original copy of the game, and then pay bossland to hack it for them. Their resulting versions ruin the game for legal customers, which means that prospective legal customers will be less likely to purchase it. So yes, they have made money off blizzard's back that has resulted in blizzard losing money, the basic premise that restitution addresses.
They didn't touch Blizzard's code, they used a read-only debugger (of sorts) to determine where the game stores various bits of data in order to extract them to enable the generation of a graphical overlay layer. Bossland customers are still legal customers of Blizzard's service, as well; Blizzard has every right to terminate their accounts for violating the ToS, but there is no legal or civil recourse to be had. In fact, Blizzard has done so already; they've already enabled detection of this cheat overlay and implemented auto-bans for its use, so it is no longer an issue.
Still failing to actually add anything pertinent to the discussion or make much sense here mate.... but lets keep going: Well, at least you recognize it. Oh, wait, you're talking about me, aren't you? Hey, well, I've done my research and know what is actually being discussed here while you, well... clearly, you have not.
OK, I guess
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Blizzard... Quality products...
They do have recourse, though: ban the accounts. That's the point of the ToS.
And it's already proven effective against Watchover Tyrant.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
OK, I stand corrected on antibiotics vs anabiotics/whatever they're illegally producing but it doesn't change in any way my point - black market drugs are unregulated, and untested by the proper authorities, and as such unsafe, regardless of what they are, and they were developed at great cost by a different company who would like to recoup their cost legally by selling what they developed legally, etc... so sure, nitpick all you like. My first point stands
Actually, the anabolic steroids are legally produced, they're either prescribed for off-label uses or obtained illegally, but neither of those are the fault of the companies legally producing them. Their illegal use (again, not the fault of the manufacturer) is against the rules of basically every professional athletic association in the world, but that's between the athletes and the associations, not the associations and the drug companies. If your point stands it's not supported by this argument.
OK, are we still talking about black market drug companies or not? Changing your version of the definition does indeed rended my issue with black market drug companies moot. Congratulations.
Bossland is using private methods of access explicitly against the ToS to give game players access to more than blizzard gave those players rights or access to, and are charging these players for this access. Blizzard's regular customers are being impacted and receiving a worse experience, bossland is making a profit off blizzard's intellectual property.
Did you even google "Watchover Tyrant" to see what it actually does or how it works? It's an overlay, it reads from the RAM used by the game on the user's local system and draws a graphical overlay on top of the game; it doesn't control the player or enhance the player's health, armor, or weapons in any way. It's literally just a graphical overlay. It doesn't use Blizzard's servers in any way, nor does it use "private methods of access", it simply reads (and doesn't write) game RAM. It's questionable whether this violates the ToS in any way, as Overwatch and WoW have the same ToS and similar add-ons for WoW exist with Blizzard's blessing. Where Blizzard draws the line is writing to game RAM, injecting mouse or keyboard commands into the game (though some macro add-ons exist, which do this with Blizzard's blessing) or communicating with the game servers directly. Even if it is, in fact, a ToS violation, that's not a legal or civil matter and Blizzard's recourse is to terminate the offending account(s). Again, if your point does, in fact, stand, it is not supported by this argument.
I did check out the site, and also read about the suit, etc... the program access overwatches protected game code through methoes explicitly prohibited mbyt the licencing agreement to generate their overlay. Blizzard draws the line where they please. Hell, they have the right to ban you if you don't use any cheating software at all, if you want to get technical. They can ban you for taking advantage of an unintended feature, i.e. abusing a bug. And they define what a bug is, as it's their code and only they know it's intent (though they're pretty crystal clear on their intent)
Regardless my point stands.
They hacked into blizzard's code, and use a modified version of it to generate an overlay showing the intentionally hidden information. So yes, they've broken into overwatch. Their customers of course pay for their original copy of the game, and then pay bossland to hack it for them. Their resulting versions ruin the game for legal customers, which means that prospective legal customers will be less likely to purchase it. So yes, they have made money off blizzard's back that has resulted in blizzard losing money, the basic premise that restitution addresses.
They didn't touch Blizzard's code, they used a read-only debugger (of sorts) to determine where the game s
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
Yup, and they will continue to do so as they detect them, and they change their patterns, etc.... It's a neverending battle.
But that's not a 100% solution, and Bliz has put a lot of effort into this game and wants it to be the best it can be, so they're also pursuing other avenues, like trying to end the battle legally.
But the law hasn't caught up with the interconnected world, else bossland would never have dared to attempt profiting off them (and us, if you're a paying customer of overwatch or the other games they have done similar things to) this way in the first place. So it'll be interesting to see the outcome of the case.
There's a lot of interesting discussions about how global connectivity and digital goods and services will be continually at odds with a non-global authority to govern it.
Meanwhile, Blizz will continue to pursue whatever avenues are available to it both in the US and the EU (and wherever else they do business)
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
OK, are we still talking about black market drug companies or not? Changing your version of the definition does indeed rended my issue with black market drug companies moot. Congratulations.
Considering that I made the original mention of drug companies, after Calydor mentioned doping, and neither he nor I said anything about black market drug companies. Yes, I did mention black market drugs, but any prescription drug solt outside of a licensed pharmacy fits that definition. You're the one who changed the definition, I merely shifted it back.
I did check out the site, and also read about the suit, etc... the program access overwatches protected game code through methoes explicitly prohibited mbyt the licencing agreement to generate their overlay.
It doesn't "access the code", it accesses the areas of the system's RAM the game uses for data storage. Try again.
You can keep on saying that bossland isn't doing anything wrong
I could, if that's what I were saying at all. What I'm saying, however, is that they're not doing anything illegal. I'm sure you can figure out the difference and how it is key to this discussion.
(that's OK, I'm a programmer, I'm pretty sure you're not)
You fail pretty badly at logic for a supposed programmer. You seem to be pretty sure about a lot of things; this is just one more you're wrong about. In addition, I have a legal background, which also qualifies me to comment (with authority) on legal matters.
The rest of the diatribe the two quotes above came from is irrelevant, as it's based on an entirely incorrect premise.
Oh, The US legal system is horrible, most legal systems are, but they're the best we have, and one of the few avenues open to Blizzard.
But, Bossland has broken now laws and committed no civil infractions, so it will be a tough road for them.
Of course they'll take it, and while noone thinks the USA governs Germany, I'm pretty sure most here have a decent understanding of trade partnerships, and what happens when 2 countries don't get along.
Right, and the US and EU have no problems exchanging criminals for trial; however, this is a civil matter and we still (thankfully) don't have civil extradition agreements in place. Imagine that, someone anywhere in the world being allowed to bring suit against you in their home country and you having to travel, at your own expense, to defend yourself. Jurisdictional borders exist for a reason.
Look at Cuba, think they'll pull the same stuff this time round?
That was the result is armed conflict, not civil disagreements between US and Cuban businesses. Totally not relevant here.
Projection of what? You keep making these little comments, but never offer any substance to them.
You were projecting your head-placement habits onto me. Clearly, you had it firmly stowed when you wrote this reply. I see a second reply, as well.. that should be fun.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Why can't your other replies be this level-headed?
See, you admit Bossland hasn't broken any laws (at least in as far as the information available), which means -- GASP -- we actually agree on this point and there was no reason for us to argue in the first place.
Funny how that works, isn't it?
And yes, the outcome will be quite interesting, no matter which way it goes. My money's on Bossland's owners simply deciding to ignore it and never setting foot in the US for the rest of their lives. After all, it's a civil matter and civil extradition treaties aren't a thing (yet; thankfully).
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
OK, are we still talking about black market drug companies or not? Changing your version of the definition does indeed rended my issue with black market drug companies moot. Congratulations.
Considering that I made the original mention of drug companies, after Calydor mentioned doping, and neither he nor I said anything about black market drug companies. Yes, I did mention black market drugs, but any prescription drug solt outside of a licensed pharmacy fits that definition. You're the one who changed the definition, I merely shifted it back.
Still unclear? are we talking about black market drug companies, or not?
I did check out the site, and also read about the suit, etc... the program access overwatches protected game code through methoes explicitly prohibited mbyt the licencing agreement to generate their overlay.
It doesn't "access the code", it accesses the areas of the system's RAM the game uses for data storage. Try again.
Yup, and what's in that protected memory they decrypt and modify? Oh, yeah, game code. It's a bit complicated, funnily enough, but that's what the courts are there to decide. You've made it clear you don't know what you're talking about already, however :)
You can keep on saying that bossland isn't doing anything wrong
I could, if that's what I were saying at all. What I'm saying, however, is that they're not doing anything illegal. I'm sure you can figure out the difference and how it is key to this discussion.
No, I've been saying all along that bossland is wrong, that the legal system isn't capable of handling international intellectual property rights, and that Bliz has just cause to take them to court and establish a precedent.
You seem to think that Blizzard has no merit, period, and should let bossland do as they please. It's laughable, but now I know you're apparently a lawyer, I see why you're on this path
(that's OK, I'm a programmer, I'm pretty sure you're not)
You fail pretty badly at logic for a supposed programmer. You seem to be pretty sure about a lot of things; this is just one more you're wrong about. In addition, I have a legal background, which also qualifies me to comment (with authority) on legal matters.
Now it comes clear, you have a lawyers mind. :)
As for my logic, I'm still waiting for you to illustrate a single flaw in it, however now I know you're a lawyer I understand that you merely obfuscate what you don't understand, and are trying to jam your personal ideas of what it should be onto it. I can't criticise you for it really, it's what works in the courtroom.
It also explains why you're continuing to fight a losing argument even when you are wildly unqualified
The rest of the diatribe the two quotes above came from is irrelevant, as it's based on an entirely incorrect premise.
You keep making statements like this.... I know it's a good court tactic, but this is a forum and you're going to have to back up your statements with something. I know you won't, because you can't, but it'd be nice if you at least tried :)
Oh, The US legal system is horrible, most legal systems are, but they're the best we have, and one of the few avenues open to Blizzard.
But, Bossland has broken now laws and committed no civil infractions, so it will be a tough road for them.
It's going to be a tough road regardless. As for if Bossland has broken any laws, clearly they have, they just are outside of those laws jurisdiction (as those laws were created in and for a time where this kind of predatory business practices weren't even conceived)
Fortunately it doesn't matter that it's going to be tough (btw, you're a la
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
Why can't your other replies be this level-headed? See, you admit Bossland hasn't broken any laws (at least in as far as the information available), which means -- GASP -- we actually agree on this point and there was no reason for us to argue in the first place. Funny how that works, isn't it? And yes, the outcome will be quite interesting, no matter which way it goes. My money's on Bossland's owners simply deciding to ignore it and never setting foot in the US for the rest of their lives. After all, it's a civil matter and civil extradition treaties aren't a thing (yet; thankfully).
I never claimed bossland has broken any laws.... where did I do that? Unless I was pointing out that they've broken US laws in which case I was also acknowledging that they don't operate out of the US.) The legal system is decades behind this sort of issue.
It's already pretty clear bossland is going to try to just ignore it, they've been doing that for years. But I don't care what bossland _do_ I care about what the courts do. What bossland 'does' has no relevance here.
And of course you are thankful that people in one country can't be punished for their offences to another country. You're a lawyer.
It's that kind of attitude that leads to all our international wars - When you can't prosecute someone for stealing your IP/whatever and costing you money, well, what's left to you? Funny how that works, isn't it?
If Blizzard fail to shut down bosslands activity this way, I'd expect them to sue the german government itself, and progress from there.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
For the benefit of those who haven't read the other thread, the exchange in which Dashiva Dan decided I'm a lawyer went like so:
(that's OK, I'm a programmer, I'm pretty sure you're not)
You fail pretty badly at logic for a supposed programmer. You seem to be pretty sure about a lot of things; this is just one more you're wrong about. In addition, I have a legal background, which also qualifies me to comment (with authority) on legal matters.
What part of "one more thing you're wrong about" in relation to "I'm pretty sure you're not [a programmer]" doesn't just scream "Hey, dumbass! I'm a programmer!" so loud you'd have to be massively not paying attention in order to miss it?
If you're not going to pay attention (and it's clear from your reply in the other thread that you're not) I can't continue this discussion; it would be pointless to do so.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
ugh... I meant "I'm not sure where"... typos...
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
try it out, we might get somewhere
So, when I point out your logical failure (in the other thread) I get crickets. Yes, we're getting somewhere, alright.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.