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Starbucks and McDonald's Announce Porn Blocks On Their Wi-Fi Networks (cnn.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from CNN Money: Anti-pornography groups have succeeded in their efforts to get Starbucks and McDonald's to block porn on the chains' Wi-Fi networks..."We had not heard from our customers that this was an issue, but we saw an opportunity that is consistent with our goal of providing an enjoyable experience for families," McDonald's said in a statement... Starbucks said Friday it's will do so the same thing at its company-owned stores around the globe as well. "Once we determine that our customers can access our free Wi-Fi in a way that also doesn't involuntarily block unintended content, we will implement this in our stores," said a Starbucks spokesperson. "In the meantime, we reserve the right to stop any behavior that interferes with our customer experience, including what is accessed on our free Wi-Fi..."
Meanwhile, this week, the Republican Party officially added the "public health crisis" of porn to its platform.

179 of 284 comments (clear)

  1. VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Subject says it all.

    1. Re:VPN by thegarbz · · Score: 1, Insightful

      nothing else to add

      I have something to add. If you need that desperately to watch porn that you do it in a family restaurant then rather than seeing up your VPN maybe you should rethink your entire life.

    2. Re:VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If You think this is going to cause issues only (and even) for people who were trying to watch porn in a family restaurant, i've got a bridge i'd like to sell you.

    3. Re: VPN by rfengr · · Score: 1

      I don't know, but in a flight a few years ago, a guy in an isle seat had a porn mag open for everyone to see while boarding; I did a double-take.

    4. Re:VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So you think the filter is just going to block porn?

      I've never heard of a porn filter that didn't at least contain some political content, but who know, perhaps this will be a first.

    5. Re:VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have something to add. If you need that desperately to watch porn that you do it in a family restaurant then rather than seeing up your VPN maybe you should rethink your entire life.

      If this were an actual problem I'm sure McDonald's and Starbucks would have blocked it on their own (they said so themselves). The issue is, this was a total non-issue until a couple of hate groups made it one.

    6. Re:VPN by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Well just look in the UK. Not only did that mandated filter block porn, it also blocked I'm sure just by mistake opposition party pages and health related information.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    7. Re:VPN by allo · · Score: 1

      Trump Fetishists ...

    8. Re:VPN by allo · · Score: 1

      You know, how web filters work? This will not only block porn. Look at china or similiar regimes, where the filter gets thousands of websites, which are on the same host than something forbidden.

    9. Re:VPN by ausekilis · · Score: 1

      So you think the filter is just going to block porn?

      I've never heard of a porn filter that didn't at least contain some political content, but who know, perhaps this will be a first.

      That's because of Rule #34.

  2. next any union sites / labor law sites by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    next any union sites / labor law sites

    1. Re:next any union sites / labor law sites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree with this. I was in McDonald's the other day, and the guy jerking off at the next table really put me off my happy meal.

    2. Re: next any union sites / labor law sites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      First they came for the porn and I did nothing because I know ways around it.
      Then they came for the ways around it and I did nothing because I thought it was impossible.
      Then they bought politicians and there was nothing we could do to keep our liberties.

    3. Re:next any union sites / labor law sites by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I was in McDonald's the other day, and the guy jerking off at the next table really put me off my happy meal.

      Why do you hate America? I thought this was America, OK?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re: next any union sites / labor law sites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is THE problem with America. The people think that liberty means free to watch porn in family restaurants.

      But they will unquestioningly live in lifelong debt, subject themselves to rogue police forces, vote for one of two parties both of which are profoundly anti-citizen, and lambast people like Snowden when they demonstrate governmental overreach.

      But no, forget all that. All's well so long as I get to jack off while eating a happy meal.

    5. Re:next any union sites / labor law sites by macs4all · · Score: 1

      I was in McDonald's the other day, and the guy jerking off at the next table really put me off my happy meal.

      Why do you hate America? I thought this was America, OK?

      Sadly, In name only. in name only...

    6. Re:next any union sites / labor law sites by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You're right. I'm pretty sure this is a first amendment issue. Possible a second amendment one as well.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    7. Re:next any union sites / labor law sites by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      You're right. I'm pretty sure this is a first amendment issue. Possible a second amendment one as well.

      If you mean jerking off in McDonalds to gun porn, then hell yeah. First and Second Amendment issues, right there.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  3. Surprising... by Etcetera · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... only that they didn't already have a content block like this up already. (I'm sure it was already against the click-through ToS, but that's basically meaningless anyway.) There's nothing unreasonable about this. It's a public place, it's a private service, etc. I seem to recall a case a while back about public libraries being OK with blocking this on community-standards grounds in some jurisdictions.

    And seriously, if you need to go to McDonalds and configure a VPN to watch porn you should probably try to put that effort into improving your career prospects so you can afford an internet connection at home.

    1. Re: Surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Plus there is always mobile data if you want to masturbate in public!

    2. Re: Surprising... by thundercattt · · Score: 2

      That was my first thought too. As a Sysadmin, that should of been a given ages ago. A little amusing though, because up here 90% of who are on the wifi are kids under 10 or elderly.

    3. Re:Surprising... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      And seriously, if you need to go to McDonalds and configure a VPN to watch porn you should probably try to put that effort into improving your career prospects so you can afford an internet connection at home.

      Agreed, though this does seem to be a minor setback for Starbucks in its path toward becoming "Coffee for Men" and the home of the full body latte. (One of the few ways it seems we may not be moving toward Idiocracy these days.)

    4. Re:Surprising... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Starbucks in its path toward becoming "Coffee for Men" and the home of the full body latte [youtube.com]

      I have to admit that I'm conflicted as to whether or not to click that link.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    5. Re:Surprising... by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Why wouldn't you use a VPN when connected to a public AP like you'd find at McD's or Starbucks anyway?

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    6. Re:Surprising... by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      I have to admit that I'm conflicted as to whether or not to click that link.

      Not really that weird or scary ... but probably blocked at McD's anyway. Because reasons.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
  4. Jacking off in McDonald's by ronmon · · Score: 3, Funny

    Now that might be a public health problem if you spooged on the table.

    BTW, do people really surf porn in those places?

    1. Re:Jacking off in McDonald's by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      Yes

      You say that as if you have first-hand knowledge.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  5. Damn. Can't use a Star Wars quote here. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    Leia: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more ...

    Nope. Can't do it.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Damn. Can't use a Star Wars quote here. by vandelais · · Score: 1

      Leia: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more ...

      Nope. Can't do it.

      Sorry about the mess.

      --
      Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
  6. And all of the municipal Internet will too by mi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All of the celebrated "municipal WiFi" and "community Internet" will do the same before you can say: "Statism".

    You have been warned.

    VPN? Is that something you'd use to get around our laws, citizen? Well, let's make that illegal too...

    Oh, and hate speech should not be allowed to travel over taxpayer-funded networks either, should it be? We like it wholesome in this town.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:And all of the municipal Internet will too by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      Your outrage detector is broken. Most SJWs (and most feminists these days) are pro-porn. This very page notes that the official republican party platform is anti-porn, and it's a safe bet that's because of the religious right, not because SJWs own the republican party.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    2. Re:And all of the municipal Internet will too by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      All of the celebrated "municipal WiFi" and "community Internet" will do the same before you can say: "Statism".

      So, what you're saying is, "As goes McDonalds, so goes the local government"?

      You're afraid that government's going to be run like one of the most successful businesses in US history?

      It's funny the logical knots that "small-government" conservative libertarians can tie themselves into.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:And all of the municipal Internet will too by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      the religious right doesn't have the influence it did years ago.

      http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re:And all of the municipal Internet will too by Known+Nutter · · Score: 1

      You're afraid that government's going to be run like one of the most successful businesses in US history?

      If by "successful" you mean poisoning their customers, avoiding billions in US taxes, and contributing to the overall obesity epidemic in the US, then, yeah, sure. That sounds like a perfect business model for the US government.

      It's a commonly stated fact that McDonald's food just doesn't go bad, and there are numerous examples of McDonald's burgers old enough to remember the first season of The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air still looking perfectly palatable. As if that wasn't worrying enough, when McDonald's food is left out in the open, even bugs and flies won't attempt to eat it. It says a lot when creatures known mostly for converging around piles of horse excrement won't touch your food.

      McDonald's has always maintained that the reason their burgers enjoy Ric Flair levels of longevity is because there's very little moisture in them. While this is accurate, McDonald's leavse out the reason their food contains so little moisture. Luckily, actual scientists not wearing golden arches on their labcoats have a simple answer. McDonald's food is laden with so much fat, sugar and salt that they're effectively immune to the effects of spoilage under normal circumstances. Meaning that under the right conditions, McDonald's food could outlive anyone reading this and still be edible.

      --
      Beware of the Leopard.
    5. Re:And all of the municipal Internet will too by mi · · Score: 1

      So, what you're saying is, "As goes McDonalds, so goes the local government"?

      You're afraid that government's going to be run like one of the most successful businesses in US history?

      McDonalds didn't do it on their own — they were pressured by "anti-porn" zealots. Such zealots will (already do!) have even more sway over elected officials — town libraries were filtering the Internet since at least 2000! Therefor, the fewer things such officials are allowed to control, the better.

      It is the general principle of Libertarianism, and this case is is just another illustration of its wisdom.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    6. Re:And all of the municipal Internet will too by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      McDonalds didn't do it on their own — they were pressured by "anti-porn" zealots.

      You mean anti-porn zealots like these?

      http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/11/...

      That's the party of Trump, by the way.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    7. Re:And all of the municipal Internet will too by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      If by "successful" you mean poisoning their customers, avoiding billions in US taxes, and contributing to the overall obesity epidemic in the US, then, yeah, sure.

      That's the model for a successful business in late-stage capitalism, unfortunately.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re:And all of the municipal Internet will too by mi · · Score: 1

      You mean anti-porn zealots like these?

      I mean, anti-porn zealots mentioned in the write-up:

      Anti-pornography groups have succeeded in their efforts to get Starbucks and McDonald's to block porn on the chains' Wi-Fi networks

      That's the party of Trump, by the way.

      More of the anti-porn zealots may be among Trump supporters, but the even worse danger is from the freaks, who'd criminalize (what they deem to be) "hate speech". These are mostly in Hillary's camp — are you comfortbable in that company?

      Neither group should be allowed to prevail and the best way to achieve this is by keeping as much stuff as possible out of government's control to begin with.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  7. Screw Them by theGhostPony · · Score: 1

    If I wanted a fucking nanny, I'd bring my own.

    --
    /. Dissent will not be tolerated. Think like us or perish.
    1. Re:Screw Them by anegg · · Score: 1

      I don't think that would be allowed; if viewing porn isn't ok, then creating porn is probably right out.

    2. Re:Screw Them by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Especially when it's goat porn.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:Screw Them by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Yeah I know, right? If those fuckers won't let me watch porn, I'll just take my "business" to KFC to choke the chicken there instead as it were. That'll show 'em!

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  8. Re:This policy is a bit premature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's a content filter for a public access point. It prevents them from getting in trouble when little Timmy downloads hardcore bondage porn from his local McDonalds because his parents have locked down his other connections.

    This has nothing to do with political values.

  9. What the hell does this mean? by John+Jorsett · · Score: 2

    "Once we determine that our customers can access our free Wi-Fi in a way that also doesn't involuntarily block unintended content".

    1. Re:What the hell does this mean? by Desler · · Score: 1

      It means they don't want the usual braindead Internet filters that block content that is not porn.

  10. Good luck by markdavis · · Score: 1

    >"Once we determine that our customers can access our free Wi-Fi in a way that also doesn't involuntarily block unintended content, we will implement this in our stores,"

    Good luck with that.

    There is nothing really "wrong" with porn. But go ahead and try to define what it is and how it is "bad" while other things are "good." That is the problem with censorship. Of course, they (the establishment owners) have the right to do this, it is their own WiFi and they can do what they want. (That right should NOT extend to the government nor ISP's) But once you start mucking around with it, don't be surprised when you are held responsible for what "bad" things WILL get through.

    Remember, people can't be responsible for their own actions anymore- everything has to be someone else's fault.

    1. Re:Good luck by omnichad · · Score: 1

      So it's bad censorship to not broadcast porn in McDonalds and Starbucks? Have you ever had to sit next to someone doing this at a public wifi hotspot?

      If this is happening often enough to even warrant the effort, I can't see a real downside here.

    2. Re:Good luck by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"So it's bad censorship to not broadcast porn in McDonalds and Starbucks?"

      I never said that.

      >" Have you ever had to sit next to someone doing this at a public wifi hotspot?"

      No. Have you ever had to sit next to someone watching guts being ripped out of someone in a super gory movie while you are trying to eat? (I have) Is that "bad"? Should it be banned/filtered too? How about trying to eat and chat with friends while someone "entertains" their child with some game on their phone with the volume at full blast? (I have). I could go on, but hopefully you should get my point. You can't legislate common sense and courtesy into people (unfortunately).

      Oh, conversely, one might sit next to someone watching porn on a screen that isn't visible by others, using headphones at a reasonable volume so nobody else can hear anything, and doing nothing else but eating a hamburger.... bothering nobody.

    3. Re:Good luck by omnichad · · Score: 1

      conversely, one might sit next to someone watching porn on a screen that isn't visible by others, using headphones at a reasonable volume so nobody else can hear anything, and doing nothing else but eating a hamburger.... bothering nobody.

      While using a significant amount of bandwidth and reducing the capacity for everyone else...bothering a number of people.

    4. Re:Good luck by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"While using a significant amount of bandwidth and reducing the capacity for everyone else...bothering a number of people."

      You can say that about Netflix and pretty much all video- tons of bandwidth. And with watching video or listening to music without headphones- bothering people.

  11. More distractions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Meanwhile, this week, the Republican Party officially added the "public health crisis" of porn to its official platform.

    Ah, the American people easily distracted by horseshit issues.

    1. Re:More distractions by mikeiver1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So true, the middle class is shrinking and the more people are slipping into the poor class, the rich are an order of magnitude richer since the crash and corporations are far better off. BUT, some dude jerking off in the privacy of his own home is a public health crisis that needs to be dealt with. Fucking assholes. Yet another reason that Starbucks and McD suck and I don't go there.

    2. Re:More distractions by RuffMasterD · · Score: 1

      I never even thought about watching port and jacking off at McDonalds before this fiasco. I was just thinking about useless issues such as how to provide universal healthcare, or how to reintegrate incarcerated people into society, or how to support people in the lower socio-economic strata of society into productive employment etc. How foolish of me. But now I want to know, can I still jack off at McDonalds without watching porn?

      --
      Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
    3. Re:More distractions by mikeiver1 · · Score: 1

      So let me get this straight, I am a sicko because I call the republican stance regarding porn a distraction from the real issues that are actually doing real harm to you and your children? Good to know, be sure to get to the poles early so you can vote for that idiot and the occupants of his clown car. For the record I can't ever recall seeing anyone looking at porn in any place in public on their phone or laptop, ever!

  12. This is so absolutely cool! by tlambert · · Score: 2

    This is so absolutely cool!

    Who gets to be the first to sue McDonalds or Starbucks for not preventing a piece of porn from getting through, since they're now taking explicit responsibility for the content served over their computer networks?

    1. Re:This is so absolutely cool! by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      This will be an issue at some point.

      The college I work for doesn't filter based on keywords, domain names, various lists, etc. I asked the network admin why and was told "if we try to block anything, we can be held liable for anything we don't block".

      The college's solution? Get caught surfing porn and you can face loss of lab or library privileges, being forcefully withdrawn from current classes and being blocked from registering for $next_term or longer, etc. Even the possibility of the campus police issuing a trespass warning to you - come back on campus and go to jail.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    2. Re:This is so absolutely cool! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Sue all you want. They made no legal promise that they will filter it all.

      To be clear from a legal perspective absolutely nothing has changed.

    3. Re:This is so absolutely cool! by omnichad · · Score: 1

      If you "get caught" that means you're doing it in public. There are already public decency laws out there. Whether you're the one who's nude or you're broadcasting a picture of it to the room.

  13. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Desler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But someone watching a violent movie, which won't be blocked, is okay for the kid to see, though, right?

  14. Nothin' to do with blocking porn by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    and everything to do with limiting bandwidth and exposure (there's a pun in there somewhere). I'm guessing they got a few cease and desists from porn companies for folks bit torrenting stuff. As an added bonus you don't have creepy dudes huffing and puffing at a McDonalds or Starbucks (well, not as many anyway)

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  15. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Desler · · Score: 2

    "Oh, that's just that Game of Thrones show, honey." You, know, that violent show with nudity that won't be blocked by this policy.

  16. Re:This policy is a bit premature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Quite the contrary. When some porn slips through the filter they now may have some legal liabilitiy.

  17. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

    Not that I eat at McDonalds anymore..

    Me neither, I always use the drive-thru

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  18. Who the heck watches porn at McDonald's? by ZorinLynx · · Score: 2

    I've eaten at McD's many times and not once have I seen someone watching porn there. Also, it's not the sort of environment that makes sense for watching that content; you don't have any privacy to do the sort of things that someone watching porn tends to want to do.

    What's the point?

    1. Re: Who the heck watches porn at McDonald's? by thundercattt · · Score: 1

      Could be downloading from their car. Get their stash for the night then go home.

  19. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    I think blocking porn videos in their stores isn't unreasonable. The idea of someone taking their kid to McDonald's and have to sit near some perv watching porn because FREEDOM seems wrong to me. If you want to watch porn, or in general surf any and all sites, do it on your own Interne connection..

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  20. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    Have you used most public wifi? Getting a YouTube video to load is usually a pretty time consuming process.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  21. Time and place by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a free country, if I want to watch porn at McDonalds then so be it!!!!

    You seem to forget that it's a free country for McDonald's too. They are under no obligation to cooperate with your pathetic need to watch porn on their property.

    And seriously, if you really are so desperate that you need to watch porn at McDonald's then you need to go play in traffic or get serious psychiatric help. Time and place people. Time and place.

    1. Re:Time and place by anegg · · Score: 2

      Perhaps more to the point, if people start using VPNs so that they can view porn while they are at a family restaurant, McDonald's may choose to start blocking VPNs (like my local library did). And that would screw up my ability to securely access my Contacts, Calendar, and e-mail while I'm chowing down at lunch or dinner while I'm on the road.

      We are all members of a *society* - anyone who wants to be anti-social should excuse themselves and head for the woods or the mountains. Good luck finding porn there. If someone likes the benefits they gain from society, they should understand that they need to put up with some restraints as well. (Don't they sell stroke mags at convenience stores anymore for the wankers?)

    2. Re:Time and place by Cyberpunk+Reality · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And what exactly is "porn" again?

      The Venus de Milo? Greta Garbo in a swimsuit? Protest coverage? Dancing?

      Apparently not Game of Thrones though.

      --
      Rule 35 of the internet: "If it can be hacked, it will be". - Charles Stross
    3. Re:Time and place by vux984 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I just want McD people to mind their own business and to not stick their noses into mine. Is it too much to ask for?

      And you want this consideration while you are literally sitting in the middle of their business?

      The way I see it, they'll keep their nose out your business; as long as you keep your ass out of theirs.

    4. Re:Time and place by allquixotic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's why you just need to make your VPN traffic look like normal web traffic. There are various protocols out there that are so obfuscated that even a deep packet inspection firewall couldn't tell that it's not ordinary web traffic.

      It adds overhead and latency, but it's really not that difficult to do. Somewhat ironically, it is based on the exact same principle as terrorists use to infiltrate countries they want to blow up: you become really, really good at looking exactly like the sheeple. You don't stand out. You look perfectly ordinary just like the rest of the law-abiding citizens. Except that the *semantics* of the data you're transferring -- which no firewall or DPI could possibly understand -- are such that porn content (or whatever) is being delivered to your computer.

      Blocking is for deterring casual use, not for actually preventing something from being done. See: Great Firewall of China.

    5. Re:Time and place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Fine. But they are not allowed to advertise that they provide internet access.

      So you wish to limit their first amendment rights because you don't like what they say/do?

    6. Re: Time and place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Spoken like someone who has never been, and SHOULD never be, a parent.

    7. Re:Time and place by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2

      Why do people say stupid things like this? The First Amendment applies to the government, not private industry. Private industry is free to censor whatever they want in any way they want. Don't believe me? Read the Amendment:

      Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

      See that first word? Congress. That means government. It says nothing about a business infringing on your freedom of speech. You know why? Because they're not government.

      Must have a bunch of Scalia wannabes with the amount of tripe about the Constitution spewed out on here.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    8. Re:Time and place by allquixotic · · Score: 2

      The protocol negotiation and setup routines of a VPN are extremely easy to detect. When it's your "ISP" -- the network gateway providing your uplink -- that is trying to prevent you from getting on a VPN, it is extremely trivial for the gateway to block most VPNs because they have such well-known, "overt" setup/negotiation protocols.

      Even OpenVPN on TCP port 443, which by all counts looks a helluva lot like a standard HTTPS connection, has just enough of a "tell" that it can be blocked while the gateway still allows normal HTTPS connections over the web.

      While it's true that *endpoints* on an already established VPN tunnel cannot tell that the traffic is being handed to another client over a VPN, it is very easy for a *gateway* to detect all but the most stealthy VPNs.

      That's why I said that specific mitigations (in terms of traffic shape and protocol "appearance", using steganography if required) are required if you want to bypass this kind of "anti-VPN" restriction on the gateway you are connected to (for instance, a free WiFi hotspot that's trying to block porn, and then tries to block VPNs to prevent people from using them to circumvent the block).

      It's not even about setting up your own server. I could give you a description of a certain sequence of packets that will identify OpenVPN connections (even over TCP) 100% of the time, and never false positive on anything else. You could safely implement that rule on *all* remote IP addresses on a stateful firewall gateway and prevent people from using OpenVPN, regardless of the port.

    9. Re:Time and place by allquixotic · · Score: 1

      I forgot to mention that the next "step" in the cat and mouse circumvention / anti-circumvention arms race is to ban encryption as well as any traffic that the DPI firewall can't "understand". This is the Brave New World of universal surveillance that we are headed towards. Countries like China, Australia and the UK are leading the way, and the US is going there too, just perhaps a little bit slower because organizations like the EFF and ACLU exist to try and gum up the works of the process.

      It may take a few decades, but it will be within the lifetime of millennials that you will see encryption banned, and any traffic you try to send over the Internet that isn't fully understood by your ISP (regardless of whether you're on a home, work, or free hotspot connection) will be automatically rejected. So no VPNs or anything of the sort.

    10. Re:Time and place by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Well, in that case being a free country and all, shouldn't pron (free porn be protected). If they are really serious about limiting the impact of porn, then stripping it of copyright protection and adhering to the US constitution with regards to patents and copyrights, "To promote the progress of science and useful arts". Under law if it fails that test it legally should not have copyright protection. In fact all content should be tested by that rule prior to achieving copyright protection. You are still completely free to produce it and free to distribute it and free to copy it, just not free to demand payment for it. Take the profit out of it and you will hugely reduce the harm of it, people want to do it for free for fun, fine. People forced to do it out of poverty and desperation, not so cool, quite awful in fact. Liberate pron today, free it from the bondage of copywrong (in this case wrong because of course it hugely fails the test it is required by law to pass, that law being ignored because greed and paedo jets for billionaires and politicians).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    11. Re:Time and place by mysidia · · Score: 2

      McDonald's may choose to start blocking VPNs

      And just like trying to block websites, there will be a wide berth of false positives frustrating thousands of patrons who weren't even trying to look at porn, but a website they wanted is blocked spuriously by the tool.

      Meanwhile.... the people who were targeting McDonalds for their porn-watching needs, can just continue to watch porn by popping a DVD in their laptop, or playing the file they pre-downloaded while they were at home.

      The 1% of folks who are McDonalds porn aficionados can also still view porn at McDonalds by accessing the sites through your cellular data.

      Also, if the restaurant tried to block cellular data or Personal WiFi hotspots, that would actually be illegal, and they could be fined billions of $$$ by the FCC.

    12. Re:Time and place by vux984 · · Score: 1

      one could also sit in there restaurant on a cellular internet connection and look at porn.

      And as someone who at an early stage in life did a stint as managed fast food; you'd ask that customer to stop and/or leave.

      but this is the *wrong* thing to do

      At best it means the poor teenaged shift manager doesn't has to ask a few creeps to leave.

      This move is stupid and caters to conservatives at the expense of the rest of there customers.

      It caters to conservatives, but at the expense of nobody.

    13. Re:Time and place by bobbutts · · Score: 1

      Here you go: https://github.com/clayface/openvpn_xorpatch

      This patch adds obfuscation capability to OpenVPN, allowing it to bypass network traffic sensors which aim to detect usage of the protocol and block it.

    14. Re:Time and place by jandersen · · Score: 1

      ...You don't stand out. You look perfectly ordinary ...

      If you feel your need to watch porn and engage in its associated activities so keenly, that you have to do it in a McDonald's, I suspect you are going to stand out in other ways that have nothing to do with network packets.

  22. Grow up by sjbe · · Score: 2

    So in short, they are determining and deciding on what constitutes an enjoyable experience for their clients.

    Yes they are. If you have a problem with that, take your business (and your porn) elsewhere. And frankly I agree with them. McDonald's is not the appropriate place for watching porn and never will be. You seem to have a profound entitlement complex if their actions actually offend you.

    I am not sying they do not reserve the right to do whatever they want on their network, but diseminating the mesage this way doesn't cut it for me.

    So you are saying you think it is a good idea to watch porn in a McDonald's and how dare they prevent it. Otherwise there is no reason for you to care at all.

  23. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

    They are not deciding what is or isn't good for you. They are deciding what is good for them and they have every right to do so. The message they are sending is that of a family and kid friendly place.

    That, and they don't want anybody confused when you ask for a Big Mac.

  24. Heading off problems before they happen by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The other half of the quote you provided is that they are spending money to "fix" a problem that may not have existed.

    They are doing it to head off any lawsuits that might potentially arise. You can be sure the first time some mom observes someone watching porn in front of her kids using McDonald's wifi that a lawsuit and tons of bad PR would follow. Taking reasonable measures to block this problem before it happens is a very sensible thing to do. If you don't like it, don't shop there. But frankly if you actually have a problem with this you probably need psychiatric help.

    1. Re:Heading off problems before they happen by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2

      You can be sure the first time some mom observes someone watching porn in front of her kids using McDonald's wifi that a lawsuit and tons of bad PR would follow.

      That's actually not what happened in this case. Nobody found themselves sitting one table away from some guy eating a Big Mac while jacking off.
      What precipitated this was parents whining to politicians that although they had porn filters installed in their home wifi networks, their kids might be able to take their tablets to McDonald's and watch it there.

    2. Re:Heading off problems before they happen by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Download it there, fap to it in private. Kids aren't stupid...Not that stupid anyhow.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Heading off problems before they happen by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      Well, one problem is that these parents need their kids to help them set up their porn filters in the first place.

      Which actually, is a good thing. The parents are really the ones most vulnerable to being injured by pornography.

  25. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by King_TJ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Except this really doesn't constitute McDonalds or Starbucks "deciding what's good for you" at all. They're simply exercising some control over what they let you do with THEIR Internet connection. Taken to the extreme, you could cry foul that your local Mexican restaurant keeps deciding what kind of music you want to hear by piping in only Hispanic music, when you actually prefer punk rock. But no ... it's their place and their right to craft the type of dining experience they want it to have.

    To my knowledge, none of these chain restaurants have ever put out pamphlets, posters or other advertising advising you to stop watching porn. They just don't want you to do it on their connection while eating there. That's perfectly reasonable.

  26. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

    So in short, they are determining and deciding on what constitutes an enjoyable experience for their clients.

    No, not at all. The customers are telling them what an enjoyable experience is, and what detracts from it, and they are responding. In this case customer complaints are input into the decision.

  27. family friendly? by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

    they do know how families are made, right? if not, i can show you a video about how... just not at a McDonald's. ;)

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    1. Re:family friendly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Most families don't begin with a facial.

  28. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by dhaen · · Score: 1

    I agree with your sentiment, but with qualifications. A short group of frames from a violent movie cannot be compared with that from porn. The violent movie relies on a storyline and a run-up to make it for effect - a flash frame of a bloody corpse doesn't create that level of fear or abhorrence. Whereas a single frame of porn can shock a young mind. And when I say porn, I don't mean the kind of thing that's blocked by public websites - the human body (which is entirely innocent) - I mean particular interactions between humans that a young mind has yet to experience because his/her mind has not developed the need or interest in it.

  29. Re:This policy is a bit premature by anegg · · Score: 2

    The $15/hour minimum wage is just a placeholder for now in the US Democratic platform. The actual objective is to get a Guaranteed Minimum Income for everyone. I'm not sure whether they think it should only apply to citizens.

  30. Not your property by sjbe · · Score: 2

    And what exactly is "porn" again? The Venus de Milo? Greta Garbo in a swimsuit? Protest coverage? Dancing?

    I'm guessing your parents never had The Talk with you if you are actually trying to use this irrelevant nonsense as an argument.

    In this case "porn" is whatever McDonald's defines it to be. It's their property and they can do what they like with it. If you don't like it go elsewhere. If they lose business they might reconsider but I'm pretty sure they won't miss you or your porn.

    1. Re:Not your property by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In this case "porn" is whatever McDonald's defines it to be. It's their property and they can do what they like with it. If you don't like it go elsewhere.

      I agree with you, to a point. Yes, McDonald's can block porn on its WiFi. I'm just uncomfortable about McDonalds being free to define what "porn" is.

      What if, say, Chick-fil-a decided that "porn" included anything with a gay theme, even if it did not involve explicit visuals (e.g., gay rights, marriage, merchandise) and blocked it on their WiFi? IANAL, but this sounds like a conflict of constitutional rights of free speech vs. equal protection, and I think the courts have decided that equal protection wins.

      I suppose some might argue that public WiFi at a business is like magazines in a dentist's waiting room: if there's nothing available that you like, well too bad, I'm a doctor, not a magazine stand. I disagree: if public WiFi is part of the service that a business offers, then it cannot discriminate against any protected group with that service. Porn-watchers are not a protected group, but gays are.

    2. Re: Not your property by phorm · · Score: 1

      "IANAL, but this sounds like a conflict"

      Sir, that is EXACTLY the type of behaviour McDonald's is trying to clean up in their family-friendly establishment!

      (I remember being very confused back in the day before I realized this way an abbreviation and not a statement of preference)

  31. Just preventing lawsuits and bad PR by sjbe · · Score: 1

    But someone watching a violent movie, which won't be blocked, is okay for the kid to see, though, right?

    That's not likely to result in a lawsuit. Someone watching porn might and it certainly would result in a ton of bad PR. Seriously folks, this is just McDonald's heading off a problem before it becomes a problem. I don't think they are making a big social statement.

  32. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by ravenshrike · · Score: 2

    No it's not, it's perfectly rational. Violence is, by and large, something to be avoided throughout your life. As such, fictional depictions of violence will not, by and large, change behavioral patterns. Whereas sex is something the vast majority of society will participate in, and there have been plenty of cases shown where porn consumption changes expectations of sexual experiences and relationships, generally for the worse.

  33. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

    Boobies. How disingenuous of you.

  34. Oh the irony.... by ewhenn · · Score: 1

    Eats at McDonalds....
    Is concerned about public health...

  35. I have a solution! by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

    Provide a separate area for people to view porn.

    You could have little stalls with doors for privacy and actually charge them a quarter every 5 minutes or so.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  36. Well I guess that means by Laser+Lou · · Score: 1

    they can start by blocking yesterday's Trump-Pence logo.

    --
    No data, no cry
  37. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    Why is it not ok to (be able to - nobody is being forced here) see boobies, but it is ok (apparently) to see someone's head getting chopped off?

    Wait a minute... people are watching beheading videos at McDonalds?

    Man, we live in a sick fucking society. First porn and now this. Does anyone go to McDonalds just to eat a burger anymore?

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  38. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

    Whereas sex is something the vast majority of society will participate in

    You gotta remember who you're talking to.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  39. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    Me neither, I always use the drive-thru

    Like God intended.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  40. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

    Nope, they're deciding what's good for *them* by ensuring their customers don't see anything controversial on someone else's laptop, and Americans are somewhat puritanical in their views about sex. You can easily imagine lawsuits being filed over some accidental view of some T&A rather than someone getting shot up in an action movie, which might be grumbled about but probably ignored.

    Also... one would hope that most people have a sense of proprietary about what sort of material one should view in public, because of the possibility of other people seeing your screen, but given the experiences our public libraries have had with this, I don't blame McDonalds or Starbucks in the slightest. These are private establishments, so they're under no obligation to provide free access to porn.

    And no, no one cares in the slightest if you're looking at a political page, which is a somewhat implausible slippery slope arguments (although beware looking at Wolfram-Alpha with those dangerous looking symbols). These companies have *no* interest in what you're looking at, just that it doesn't bother other customers. Our typical societal mores dictate that sex is something that's done in private. We have no such taboo about political discourse. Besides, let's get real... no one cares enough to actually read a wall of text on your screen.

    Also, for those insisting on lathering up that slippery slope, this is a *long* way from any supposed reports of media bias by companies like Facebook, which, I think, was more a reflection of the bias that was held by the people they hired to mark the trending news. Young, recently graduated journalism students tend to be left-leaning? Color me shocked!

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  41. Same Sh!t, different day by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

    There was never a time, ever, when Capitalists stood up to moralizing morons in favor of freedom
    Capitalists are ultimately cowards.
    if it MIGHT be bad for the Shareholders, out it goes, no matter the cost
    Welcome to the age of Business-government.

  42. Just look what good has come from banning porn by ffkom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are some large countries in the world that have very strict bans on pornography. Specifically ones where Islam is the religion mandated by the government. Now look how well-behaved the youngsters who grew up there act towards women. How they don't need draconic measures to be kept from living out their sexual fantasies violently. Oh, you find that's not quite the case? Well, then maybe banning pornography is just outright stupid and harmful.

    1. Re:Just look what good has come from banning porn by coach_jl · · Score: 1

      The countries that you are talking about have draconian laws that hold women accountable for “tempting” the men to sin. The do not look at their own part in the problem and don’t address how they objectify women.

      If you are truly concerned about women, then you would be anti-porn. According to some studies 83% of women would leave the porn industry “if they could”. These women experience significant health and drug abuse issues as a result of working in the industry.

      So, while you are correct that some countries with strong porn bans are also abusive to women, it is a correlation and not a root cause that you are seeing.

      --
      If porn has damaged your relationship or you need help, check us out: https://thecouplecure.com/

    2. Re:Just look what good has come from banning porn by ffkom · · Score: 1

      You can bet that at least 83% of fast food waiters, sanitation workers etc. would leave their respective industries "if they could". Many professions go along with unpleasant working conditions, especially ones that require little skill. Yet, you won't see people ask to ban these professions.

  43. Utah by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is a free country, if I want to watch porn at McDonalds then so be it!!!!

    Utah recently passed a law making viewing pornography punishable by fines and 30 days in jail for "repeat offenders". This is a statement made by Paul Horner, a spokesman for Gov. Herbert:

    First time offenders will see fines of $100-$500, depending on the quantity of pornography or the amount of digital graphic content seized on the criminal's computer. Repeat offenders can expect 30 days in jail or worse, depending on what type of pornography is found in the individual's possession. Missionary style pornography will result in a fine or up to 30 days in jail, while pornography that involves any kind of homogayness, that being sodomy or Devil worshipping, will result in long-term prison sentences. Law enforcement will also be working closely with local ISPs and the NSA to monitor those who search out porn on the internet. We will win the war on porn and masturbation.

    The legislation was introduced by State Sen. Todd Weiler, who was on the Family Research Council's "Washington Watch" program, specifically complaining about McDonalds:

    TODD WEILER: McDonalds has free wi-fi, unfiltered wi-fi, in all of their locations, and I've had mothers in my Senate district call me and say, "I have filters in my home, I've come to find out that my teen's at McDonalds with a tablet, looking at porn!" And I said to McDonalds, "you're a family restaurant and you market to children! Why would you want to be a purveyor of pornography? And I think they're going to change that. And I think, you know, we also have to look at the libraries. And I'm glad you, sir [FRC] did that. I think it's a bill we need to sponsor, in Utah, because you know many of our libraries, you know, the librarians will put their hands over their hearts and talk about the First Amendment and yet if these libraries and these McDonalds were giving cigarettes to our children, we'd all be up in arms, we'd be picketing them, But somehow it's okay if they deliver pornography to them."
    TONY PERKINS [host]: Yeah, yeah, not only that, but you know how we've had all this outrage over "second-hand smoke". You don't even have to access the porn yourself to be sitting in the booth next to somebody or in the you know at the table at the public library next to someone and that was the testimony we had, that you had people that would be accessing it and you had kids walking by or families, and they'd be exposed to it as well. So if it's a public facility, there's some sense that the public has a right not to be confronted by this.
    TODD WEILER: Yeah, and that's what I think that's often lost in the First Amendment discussion, because because someone may have the First Amendment right, according to the U.S. Supreme Court, to view pornography, but what about my First Amendment right to not view it? And, you know, David Cameron, in England, which is a country much more progressive than we are on issues of sexuality and nudity, David Cameron met with the Internet service providers in England two years ago and asked them to change the Internet to a default setting of no-porn, and to force the user to opt in to porn. That's something I'd like the U.S. to gravitate toward, and I've already talked with Senator Orrin Hatch about working with me on that.

    1. Re:Utah by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Utah recently passed a law making viewing pornography punishable by fines and 30 days in jail for "repeat offenders". This is a statement made by Paul Horner, a spokesman for Gov. Herbert:

      What's that quote about everything not required will be illegal, and everything not illegal will be required?

      Is there ANYONE within the sight of my words that thinks such legislation would not be void ab initio for being absolutely, blatantly repugnant to the U. S. Constitution?

    2. Re:Utah by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm reading your words over an ISP in Utah, and I agree this law would be found to be void ab initio- but only in a federal court. A state judge in Utah making that determination would be excommunicated, not re-elected.

    3. Re:Utah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What's that quote about everything not required will be illegal, and everything not illegal will be required?

      Perhaps you're thinking of this one. Tongue-in-cheek, meant for amusement only:

      In Britain, everything is allowed, except that which is explicitly forbidden.
      In Germany, everything is forbidden, except that which is explicitly allowed.
      In France, nothing is allowed, but anything can be arranged.

      I may have gotten the countries wrong. YMMV.

    4. Re:Utah by geggam · · Score: 5, Insightful

      , but what about my First Amendment right to not view it?

      Interesting... Can we do this to churches and their habit of putting torture devices ( cross ) on their front lawns ?

    5. Re:Utah by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm reading your words over an ISP in Utah, and I agree this law would be found to be void ab initio- but only in a federal court. A state judge in Utah making that determination would be excommunicated, not re-elected.

      So Utah's Constitution doesn't derive it's power from the U.S. Constitution, like it does in most/all States? Also, I have personally never heard of a State Constitution that doesn't have an equivalent to the U.S. First Amendment. Are you saying that Utah's DOESN'T?

    6. Re:Utah by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2, Informative
      Oh, there's stuff in there::

      Sec. 4. [Religious liberty.] The rights of conscience shall never be infringed. The State shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office of public trust or for any vote at any election; nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror on account of religious belief or the absence thereof. There shall be no union of Church and State, nor shall any church dominate the State or interfere with its functions.

      Anyone who has lived here for more than a week will find this laughable. I don't know about the (elected) judiciary, but it certainly isn't taken seriously by the legislature or the executive branch. The governor's spokesman's statements are pretty clear on that ("Missionary style pornography will result in a fine or up to 30 days in jail, while pornography that involves any kind of homogayness, that being sodomy or Devil worshipping, will result in long-term prison sentences.") The governor himself made the following statements after signing this into law:

      "This is a historic day for the good, clean-living, people who call the state of Utah home," Herbert told reporters. "This new law will protect our children and make our state pure from the heathens who go against God's will."

      And you'd better clear your browser history when the cops come knocking. I doubt the NSA will help them, but local law enforcement is on board with this:

      "I want to assure the good citizens of Utah that the brave men and women of law enforcement will be out in full force, tracking down porn offenders, and bringing them to justice," Sheriff Jim Tracy of Utah County said. "I can promise you this, those who we find breaking any porn laws will be seeing jail bars. This new law is about protecting our children and that is exactly what we plan to do."

      Interestingly, the Utah Constitution conforms to Trump's standard for "libel":

      Sec. 15. [Freedom of speech and of the press. Libel.] No law shall be passed to abridge or restrain the freedom of speech or of the press. In all criminal prosecutions for libel the truth may be given in evidence to the jury; and if it shall appear to the jury that the matter charged as libelous is true, and was published with good motives, and for justifiable ends, the party shall be acquitted.

    7. Re:Utah by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      ...while pornography that involves any kind of homogayness, that being sodomy or Devil worshipping...

      WTF???

    8. Re:Utah by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1
      Aside from the criminal law, the governor also recently signed a resolution declaring porn a "public health hazard". (I'm not going to paste all that shit in, but it's fucking hilarious- go read it.) Apparently a similar resolution (this one came from North Carolina) made it into the official GOP platform for 2016:

      The internet must not become a safe haven for predators. Pornography, with its harmful effects, especially on children, has become a public health crisis that is destroying the life of millions. We encourage states to continue to fight this public menace and pledge our commitment to children's safety and well-being. We applaud the social networking sites that bar sex offenders from participation. We urge energetic prosecution of child pornography which is closely linked to human trafficking.

      It looks more reasonable than Utah's version, although it doesn't seem to recognize any sort of distinction between children being "exposed" to pornography (e.g. at McDonalds) vs. actual child pornography.

    9. Re:Utah by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      That is indeed priceless... is "Devil worshipping porn" really a thing? Does anybody know?

      "Oh Satan, I want it so bad... please come to my house right now... and all your minions in hell are invited too."

      I think they just take the definition of "horny" a bit too literally here.

    10. Re:Utah by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Devil in Miss Jones may qualify - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00...

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    11. Re:Utah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I've had mothers in my Senate district call me and say, "I have filters in my home, I've come to find out that my teen's at McDonalds with a tablet, looking at porn!"

      That's priceless. Next up, Utah bans sex because it could lead to dancing.

      PS - Seriously, if your teen is looking at porn at McDonald's, the problem is your teen, not McDonald's. If you don't commit sufficient punishment, then I say, "You're a [parent] and [hence responsible for your] children! Why would you want to be a purveyor of pornography?" Because this sounds like the same short of shit used to justify all sorts of other laws in which, in the end, the parent who complains sounds complicit in a crime--providing illicit material to minors--because they lack the power or the will to act to stop those acts.

      To which I'd argue, the obvious point is that a 15 year old* should be able to look at pornography--regardless of how warped it is from reality--because it's absurd to think many if not most 15 year olds won't seek it out and parents can't and shouldn't be in a position to utterly block access to a sufficiently old minor's sexual education--again, no matter how warped from reality that specific content is**--because it utterly undermines the process by which teens become adults. Just like we in most states have age of consent below 18 and have driving similarly below 18.

      Either that, or we start to prosecute all these delinquent parents for their failings because THEY are responsible for what their teen does.

      * We can quibble over the exact age, be it 14, 15, 16, or 17, but the overall point stands. Same as with age of consent. And by the same token, having laws that cover the scope of it to only allow certain age groups to commingle or to limit what porn precisely is allowed would be a reasonable compromise which leads to **.

      ** There's lots of crap porn out there. Part of life is realizing that porn, like ads and a lot of other stuff, is built more on fantasy and manipulation, not reality. Yet there's a reasonableness in still setting some limits on the type of porn allowed. But to that point, the difference is not that it'd be illegal per se but a basis for discussion with counselors. This is the same reason things like prostitution and drug use shouldn't be per se illegal. Sure, you can make pimping illegal or make drug cutting illegal or charge high tariffs on certain narcotics and funnel that money into treatment programs and discouragement ads. But it has to be otherwise legal so the potential victims of these things can actually step forth and, you know, talk to police and/or adults in general.

      But, then that'd fall more into line of love the sinner, hate the sin. Instead, too many "Christians" want to hate the sinner and treat them as tainted. Jesus Christ should, you know, be a good role model. But apparently not for Utah or anywhere where illegality is thought of as a solution. I certainly cannot believe that it's due to legislatures being so stupid to not recognize the indirect consequences of their new laws or to believe that making something illegal suddenly makes something stop happening. It's just a shame no one ever really confronts them on the obvious: "So, you don't have any murders or rapes in Utah, right? Well, good thing you made it so all people involved in a murder, even eyewitnesses, culpable. I'm sure that's done NOTHING to hinder reporting of crimes and let them continue in the shadows." Willful ignorance hedged so strongly in an agenda they're outright delusional.

    12. Re:Utah by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      ... is "Devil worshipping porn" really a thing?

      Rule 34 says yes.

    13. Re:Utah by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      This can't be real. Either you are fibbing or have misunderstood something? Or is Utah really that fucked?

      Actually it does look like I fell hook line and sinker for a parody site (and sites repeating it) with that "homogayness" quote! (I fucking hate parody sites.) I was thinking it was separate legislation from SCR 9 but it's not. (After living here for a couple years, nothing surprises me anymore. People asking me "so where do you go to church?" at technical interviews, pairs of women walking down the street wearing funny dresses and pushing pairs of strollers with similar-looking kids, etc.)

      SCR 9 is still hilarious:

      WHEREAS, pornography is creating a public health crisis; WHEREAS, pornography perpetuates a sexually toxic environment; WHEREAS, efforts to prevent pornography exposure and addiction, to educate individuals and families concerning its harms, and to develop recovery programs must be addressed systemically in ways that hold broader influences accountable; WHEREAS, pornography is contributing to the hypersexualization of teens, and even prepubescent children, in our society; WHEREAS, due to advances in technology and the universal availability of the Internet, young children are exposed to what used to be referred to as hard core, but is now considered mainstream, pornography at an alarming rate; WHEREAS, the average age of exposure to pornography is now 11 to 12 years of age; WHEREAS, this early exposure is leading to low self-esteem and body image disorders, an increase in problematic sexual activity at younger ages, and an increased desire among adolescents to engage in risky sexual behavior; WHEREAS, exposure to pornography often serves as childrens' and youths' sex education and shapes their sexual templates; WHEREAS, because pornography treats women as objects and commodities for the viewer's use, it teaches girls they are to be used and teaches boys to be users; WHEREAS, pornography normalizes violence and abuse of women and children; WHEREAS, pornography treats women and children as objects and often depicts rape and abuse as if they are harmless; WHEREAS, pornography equates violence towards women and children with sex and pain with pleasure, which increases the demand for sex trafficking, prostitution, child sexual abuse images, and child pornography; WHEREAS, potential detrimental effects on pornography's users can impact brain development and functioning, contribute to emotional and medical illnesses, shape deviant sexual arousal, and lead to difficulty in forming or maintaining intimate relationships, as well as problematic or harmful sexual behaviors and addiction; WHEREAS, recent research indicates that pornography is potentially biologically addictive, which means the user requires more novelty, often in the form of more shocking material, in order to be satisfied; WHEREAS, this biological addiction leads to increasing themes of risky sexual behaviors, extreme degradation, violence, and child sexual abuse images and child pornography; WHEREAS, pornography use is linked to lessening desire in young men to marry, dissatisfaction in marriage, and infidelity; WHEREAS, this link demonstrates that pornography has a detrimental effect on the family unit; and WHEREAS, overcoming pornography's harms is beyond the capability of the afflicted individual to address alone: NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Legislature of the state of Utah, the Governor concurring therein, recognizes that pornography is a public health hazard leading to a broad spectrum of individual and public health impacts and societal harms. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Legislature and the Governor recognize the need for education, prevention, research, and policy change at the community and societal level in order to address the pornography epidemic that is harming the people of our state and nation.

      At least all this stuff is stated in secular terms, but seriously, WTF? Meanwhile they have crap like this going on.

    14. Re:Utah by Calydor · · Score: 1

      If someone didn't like blue they could sue God (let the Catholic church represent him in absentia) for the color of the sky.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
  44. Re:More Jewish bullshit by ffkom · · Score: 1

    The scientific evidence backing up your claim of pornography consumers suffering from erectile dysfunction, resulting in failed attempts of procreation can be read where? Is that in the same books that claimed masturbation causes tabes dorsalis?

  45. Re:I must be getting old... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    People are actually watching Game of Thrones in Chick-fil-A restaurants while eating?

    I watch the Game of Thrones gay porn parody, "Game of Boners". Interestingly, there is less full frontal male nudity in the porn parody than in the actual HBO show.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  46. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by jgriffith325 · · Score: 1

    I read that as: our customers don't have a problem with porn, but these agenda based fanatics are making a big deal, so we have to get out in front of it.

  47. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

    I suspect it might be deliberate. They need the connection to be good enough to lure in customers - but if it's too good then those customers will sit around for an hour slowly sipping their drink and taking up a table.

  48. honestly never heard of this as a problem by strstr · · Score: 1

    I've been offended by people's facebook walls, but at the same time I don't see who or why this should be audited.

    I've never seen any public pornography ever before. I don't tend to look over peoples shoulders at starbucks. It never comes up. I have however seen many peoples computer screens at starbucks. Everyone seems to be there working, and no one is viewing porn.

    I would actually therefore say, there is no reason for a security clamp down, because the issue is non-existent. No one ever views a bunch of porn .. No one ever complains..

    All this will do in the end is harm legitimate users who will find connections problems common.

  49. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Worse than that, I went to McDonalds for lunch the other day.

    They had Fox News on the big screen TV.

    I was so disgusted I couldn't finish my McRib.

  50. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by jgriffith325 · · Score: 1

    I don't think you understand violence, nor how it influences your life. It's just as much a part of your life as sex. Likely, more so. All property rights are rooted in violence. Do you own anything?

  51. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Njorthbiatr · · Score: 1

    I can do that on LTE. Not sure how a porn filter is going to prevent that.

  52. Republicans: Enemies Of Freedom? by macs4all · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "Meanwhile, this week, the Republican Party officially added the "public health crisis" of porn to its official platform."

    What's next? Burkas for Women? Public Stonings of Gays? Full-blown Sharia Law adopted into the Federal Code?

    I swear: Next to ISIS, The Republican Party is the most Anti-American organization on the planet!

    And I mean that with all sincerity. I despise Hillary; but SOMETHING has got to be done to stop the Republicans and their relentless drive to make America the next Theocracy.

    ...and if something would happen to Trump, and we wound up with President Pence...?

    1. Re:Republicans: Enemies Of Freedom? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Funny guy. Stoning gays is a Muslim thing. Democrats love Muslims. Burkas, Dem issue too. You should see all the Detroiters I see wearing them. Guess which way they vote?

      WOOSH!!!

    2. Re:Republicans: Enemies Of Freedom? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      ISIS isn't even that anti-American.

      So, you're saying the Republicans are even MORE Anti-American than ISIS, right?

  53. Their equipment; their rules by karlandtanya · · Score: 1

    Why is this even an issue?
    Admittedly, the "think of the children" argument is stupid on it's face, but if it convinces Mickey D's and Star Trek's, whatever.

    If they want to block KKK and the American Nazi Party, that's cool too.
    If they want to *promote* Klan etc, that's also cool. The fact they should be permitted to promote what they believe in; not the Klan itself. The Klan is not cool.

    Your rights aren't being violated by McD's et. al. blocking porn. You're rights *are* being violated, but if you're worrying about porn blocks in restaurants, you've been successfully diverted.

    Freedom of speech means the government can't stop you from saying something (fire in a crowded theater, incitement to riot, etc. stipulated).
    McD's & Starbucks' wifi is not a public utility. Maybe TWC is, but those ain't.

    It doesn't prevent a private company (or a public one, for that matter, but stay focused here) from censoring things they don't like.
    It doesn't require a private company to support speech they don't want to.

    --
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
    1. Re:Their equipment; their rules by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Freedom of speech means the government can't stop you from saying something (fire in a crowded theater, incitement to riot, etc. stipulated).

      Show me the stipulations against yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. I can't seem to find them in the constitution or its amendments.

  54. Re:More Jewish bullshit by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

    Lie. To quote the American Psychiatric Association
    There is insufficient evidence to support a claim of porn addiction
    Other than moralizing, there is no excuse to attack porn access

  55. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    The idea of someone taking their kid to McDonald's and have to sit near some perv watching porn because FREEDOM seems wrong to me.

    Fuck their kid (no not literally). I don't want to sit next to some perv getting his jollies watching porn in some restaurant.

    Gross.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  56. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by macs4all · · Score: 1

    But someone watching a violent movie, which won't be blocked, is okay for the kid to see, though, right?

    How about documentaries about stoning gays, or throwing them off buildings?

    Perfectly acceptable to these pseudo-Christians.

  57. Special Sauce by not_surt · · Score: 1

    But a Big Mac just isn't the same without that Special Sauce.

  58. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by macs4all · · Score: 1

    Me neither, I always use the drive-thru

    Like God intended.

    I use the drve-up, too, of course.

    But I occasionally feel like a single-page print job waiting in the queue behind the 150-page, duplex printed and stapled annual financial report being processed ahead of me!

    Not NEARLY enough use of the "pullover slots" (background jobs) at some McDonald's, to allow more efficient queue operation.

  59. Starbucks aligning with the GOP by michael.karl.coleman · · Score: 1

    That was kind of unexpected. Will they also be making America great again?

  60. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Orthogonal to the issue. You can download without watching and watch from local storage.

    They could conceivably watch porn with a very narrow angle filter or glass and you'd never know.

    But yeah, you can't walk around with a goat.se t-shirt ether.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  61. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Desler · · Score: 1

    Who said only fictional? You'll still be able to watch real beheading videos in front of all of the kids.

  62. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Desler · · Score: 1

    But it'll be ok for me to watch ISIS beheading videos near those same kids?

  63. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    Boobies are not for little kids!!!!^11111

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  64. Stupid idea that wasn't necesary by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

    why are you trying to fix a wheel that's not squeaking? I'm not suggesting that porn has a place in McDonalds but if people aren't using it for porn to a distracting and noticeable way then wth should anyone care? All you're doing is potentially black listing websites which aren't porn. What if they're websites about sex? Or sexuality issues? What if they're frank and honest sex blogs that youths find compelling and useful for knowledge purposes. What is reading about *REAL* sex can help these kids make better choices sexually. What if it's just pictures of nude people.

    --
    Just another second banana
  65. Say it ain't so! by PPH · · Score: 1

    Not Starbucks, the company with the mermaid logo.

    I was sort of hoping that they'd step it up to this.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  66. Possible hoax or misunderstanding? by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    SCR 9, from last month, isn't an enforceable law and that quote reeks of parody as well as not appearing in a Google News search.

    1. Re:Possible hoax or misunderstanding? by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      Yes, SCR 9 is unenforceable. They did get a porn-sniffing dog, a labrador called "URL", which isn't a bad name for a dog. He can sniff out hard drives and SD cards.

  67. Oopsie by chris-chittleborough · · Score: 1

    cbsnews.com.co is a parody site.

    1. Re:Oopsie by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      Agreed; someone please mod that comment down.

  68. Don't Get Burned by kackle · · Score: 1

    I thought McDonald's already had to block their hot coffee.

  69. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by zrobotics · · Score: 1

    I really wonder about that argument, though. Historically, privacy among a family is a relatively recent development. It used to be the norm for a dwelling to be a single room, and also common for parents and children to share the same mattress. I will agree with you that exposing modern children to pornography is much more likely to shock them than violent imagery, but that is only true for our culture. Children from sometime as recent as the settlement of the American West would likely be much more traumatized by watching die hard than watching porn. I suspect this change has a lot to due with cultural mores during the development of mass media: even radio programs directed at children (silver shadow, the lone ranger) had no compunctions featuring violence, but were very sexual repressive. Prohibition may be related, but that's just a WAG.

  70. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    No, it wouldn't. But just because McDonald's can't filter every noxious thing doesn't mean they don't have the right to filter what they can.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  71. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    But yeah, you can't walk around with a goat.se t-shirt ether.

    Like hell I can't. In fact I think I'm gonna buy one and wear it to McDonald's!

  72. Anyone remember the 7-11 Anti-Porn protests? by No+Longer+an+AC · · Score: 1

    Back in the '80s, probably about 1984 or so there were people protesting the fact that 7-11 sold Playboy and Penthouse and probably Hustler too. Really, there were people out there with protest signs exercising their First Amendment rights to shut down a couple of magazines. They actually succeeded 7-11 stopped selling porn magazines. It didn't really matter because every other convenience store sold porn mags, but it was a thing. So you can't watch porn in McDonald's or Starbucks anymore? I mean you could if you want to go the VPN route or whatever, but who the hell cares?

  73. LTE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Damn, I'll have to stream my McPorn over LTE.

    Watch porn AND get raped with the data bill!

  74. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by dryeo · · Score: 1

    Are you seriously claiming that a few frames of a beheading is harmless compared to a few frames of oral sex?
    Personally, even at 55 yrs old, I find a couple of frames of a bloody corpse as something that sticks with me, and not in a good way. I watched my young son doing internet searches, the odd sexual image that came up, he ignored. And when he was in his hamster phase, there were some weird images that came up.
    The fact that you consider a few frames of violence to be less harmful then most porn says more about you then the average person. Unluckily the big thing that it says about you is that you're probably from a religious American background.

    --
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  75. Funny, how the brain works by Gumbercules!! · · Score: 1

    It's funny - I have never used a MacDonalds or Starbucks wifi (I don't think Starbucks exist where I live and a quick Google confirms there are none in my state and I don't eat MacD's) but now I have this burning desire to go use it and try get around the filter (without a VPN), just to see if I can.

  76. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by sexconker · · Score: 1

    What customer complaints? (Hint: There were none.)

  77. Re:I must be getting old... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

    That doesn't surprise me. But do you watch it at McDonald's?

    No, I prefer In-N-Out Burger.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  78. Sneakernet by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

    If you want to watch porn in McDonalds, just bring it in on a USB stick. More seriously, though, the 'public health crisis' or porn is a public health crisis with regards to how we deal with what, in our sex drives, is a basic survival instinct which is often strongly frustrated and dissatisfied, and constrained by traditional ideas that it should be all but starved out of existence. First, the main crisis is a near-total lack of sensible sexual education: what these biological functions and drives are, how they feel in various situations, how to use them safely and hygienically, and if you really need to go (just as needing to go to the toilet), what the sensible options are. In crafting a society where there are essentially no sensible options that are publicly acceptable, save for long term relationships, we force relief of sexual frustration into the foundations of long term relationships and marriages, telling people with strong sex drives to pretend to be somebody they're not, telling their partners to trust them to be that somebody they're not, and then acting disgusted when the person pretending to be something they're not can't keep up the pretense any longer, some breach of that trust (to be something they're not) occurs, and the relationship rapidly rips itself apart. By harboring strong traditional expectations, and withholding practical sexual education, we are creating this crisis. The massive popularity of porn is just one symptom, the acts of people instinctively and desperately seeking outlets for their sexual drives, and simultaneously trying to hide those acts to save face and possibly avoid prosecution is another. But make no mistake, by trying to cage our sexual drives and starve them into submission we are creating the problem, and by giving people little in the way of sensible publicly and socially acceptable outlets to relieve these drives, we deny ourselves a means to remedy it. Porn takes the blame for what religious zealotry has created.

    --
    John_Chalisque
  79. What's the big deal? by wardrich86 · · Score: 1

    Aside from the obvious question of - "Why would anybody even want to surf porn in public?" And even if the software blocks more than porn, I can't help but wonder: why give a shit? You're not paying to use their WiFi. That's like bitching because your neighbor finally password protected their WiFi that you were bumming for years.

    1. Re:What's the big deal? by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      I've seen the odd complaint about library patrons watching porn over the years. I don't doubt that somebody, in some Starbucks or McDs, somewhere does this.

      Still, I have to agree. This is a non-issue. These companies decided to stop providing a free service that nearly nobody uses.

  80. an enjoyable experience for families by allo · · Score: 1

    An porn isn't?

  81. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by Catbeller · · Score: 1

    If the phone systems of the 1800s had gone with that logic, they would have been within their "rights" to hire monitors to listen in on "their" phone wires to see if anyone was dirty-talking on "their" property, and ban them from using "their" phone wires.

  82. Yes, protect the children by sentiblue · · Score: 1

    This is an act that I wholly endorse...

    Good for Starbucks and McDonald's... It was only one rare ocassion, but I did see a guy watching inappropriate contents right in the middle of starbucks and that was just not nice...

  83. Free speech goes both directions by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I agree with you, to a point. Yes, McDonald's can block porn on its WiFi. I'm just uncomfortable about McDonalds being free to define what "porn" is.

    Doesn't matter if you are uncomfortable with it or not. You don't have to call it "porn" if it makes you uncomfortable. They are absolutely free to block WHATEVER they want on THEIR equipment that they pay for. If you don't like it you can go elsewhere. It's a private business and it's no different then them deciding to not provide escargot on their menu. They aren't required to provide it on their menu of goods and services just because you would like to have it. They are not violating the rights of any protected groups by deciding that having people using their wifi to watch porn isn't in their best interests.

    What if, say, Chick-fil-a decided that "porn" included anything with a gay theme, even if it did not involve explicit visuals (e.g., gay rights, marriage, merchandise) and blocked it on their WiFi? IANAL, but this sounds like a conflict of constitutional rights of free speech vs. equal protection, and I think the courts have decided that equal protection wins.

    You are confused. Constitutional rights to free speech have NOTHING to do with private businesses in a context like this. The first amendment applies to the government, not the private sector. If Chick-Fil-A want's to block "porn" on their wifi they are absolutely free to do so. They have the same right to free speech as you do. There might be business consequences to their free speech (lost revenue etc) but they are free to decline to facilitate your out of control porn addiction.

    if public WiFi is part of the service that a business offers, then it cannot discriminate against any protected group with that service. Porn-watchers are not a protected group, but gays are.

    This has nothing whatsoever to do with protected groups. Furthermore your implication that gays have some sort of compelling interest in watching porn at McDonalds is totally out of line and disrespectful.

  84. Your definition doesn't matter by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Depending on who you ask, you will get a different interpretation of what constitutes porn.

    Doesn't matter. In this context, "porn" is whatever McDonald's defines it to be. Their definition need not agree with yours or anyone else's. They could call Sesame Street porn if they want to get silly about it. It's their wifi so they can provide as much or as little of the internet as they feel appropriate. It's their free speech right to do so. If you don't like it then shop elsewhere.

    Let's be clear - this is NOT government censorship and the first amendment does not apply here. No protected classes are being adversely affected by this. McDonald's is a private business and they can provide their goods and services however they like so long as they are not adversely affecting any protected classes.

    1. Re:Your definition doesn't matter by anti-disney · · Score: 1

      So what happens if someone complains to McDonald's that they are offended by a site that they saw another customer visit that got through the porn filters such as a news program. Management agrees that this isn't porn but decides to kick this person out of the McDonald's to make this other customer happy since this customer threatened to sue because their children were allegedly exposed to porn? This person wasn't trying to view porn and the site in question isn't considered porn by most people. In fact, the only person who does consider this site to be a porn site is this parent who complained.

  85. Republicans in Congress by fredrated · · Score: 1

    have consistently killed attempts to study gun violence as a health issue. Clearly to them, getting killed by a gun is better for you than watching porn.

  86. Looking for good instead of perfect by sjbe · · Score: 1

    So what happens if someone complains to McDonald's that they are offended by a site that they saw another customer visit that got through the porn filters such as a news program.

    I'm sure they'll deal with it the same way they deal with complaints today. Understand that McDonald's isn't looking for perfect here. They are looking for plausible deniability in the event of a lawsuit or bad PR. Someday some asshat is going to do something lewd in a McDonald's involving the internet and they are just setting up their defenses against that today. It allows them to say to a judge or a news outlet that they are taking reasonable measures to try to keep the place family friendly. McDonald's gains NOTHING by providing unfettered internet access. Expecting them to support porn watching in their stores is simple idiotic.

    It's not real hard to make the argument that cnn.com doesn't constitute porn by any reasonable definition. It's very hard to make the argument that pornhub.com isn't porn. Yes there will be some grey areas but they won't be hard to sort out for the most part.

    1. Re:Looking for good instead of perfect by anti-disney · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised that McDonald's doesn't already have a filter since they potentially could be liable if someone were to access a child porn site using their WiFi or the person accesses a site that contains malicious software and a customers sues because their laptop was infected with a virus or spyware. In the example I bring up, this person who viewed this alleged porn site did not violate the terms of service by visiting a porn site and didn't violate any terms of use. Another customer decided that the site he viewed was offensive and should be considered a porn site so basically this person was kicked out of the restaurant for viewing a site that wasn't a porn site and did nothing that violated their terms of use. I would assume that McDonald's and Starbucks already have some kind of filter and I doubt someone would use a public place like McDonald's where others could see the sites they visit decide to use their WiFi for porn when most companies have a Terms of Use that clearly states that porn sites are a violation of their terms of serviced. They could be an accessory to child porn in the event someone used their network to access child porn. They also could be held liable in the event someone uses their WiFi network to access piracy sites. I would have to say that every time that I've connected to a public WiFi site, they have a terms of use that clearly states that there are certain sites off limits and that by using their service, you are bound by their terms of use and they can monitor your activity. I doubt someone intending to visit porn sites would try to do this when their activity could be monitored and these terms of use clearly state that they can contact law enforcement or refuse to allow you to access their services if you violate these terms.

  87. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by houghi · · Score: 1

    The bobies are not so bad. It is the nipples that are not intended for little children.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  88. Re:I hate it when companies decide what's good for by mjwx · · Score: 1

    This is 'Murica remember.

    Violence and gore are pure, natural and healthy parts of 'Merican life like Apple Pie and invading third world nations for their natural resources.

    Nudity and Sex on the other hand are vile, despicable things that are as un'Murican as concern for your fellow man or corporations paying taxes.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.