Billionaire Launches Free Code College in California (arstechnica.com)

Xavier Niel is the billionaire founder of France's second-largest ISP. In February he bought a former campus from DeVry University, and tried building something better. Slashdot reader bheerssen writes: 42 US is a free coding school near Facebook's headquarters in Fremont, California. The courses are boot camp like experiences that do not offer traditional degrees, but hope to provide programming skills and experience to students for free.
Ars Technica calls it "a radical education experiment" -- even the dorms are free -- and the school's COO describes their ambition to become a place "where individuals from all different kinds of backgrounds, all different kinds of financial backgrounds, can come and have access to this kind of education so that then we can have new kinds of ideas." Students between the ages of 18 and 30 are screened through an online logic test, according to the article, then tossed into a month-long "sink or swim" program that begins with C. "Students spend 12 or more hours per day, six to seven days per week. If they do well, students are invited back to a three- to five-year program with increasing levels of specialty."

Comments

This sounds great

[Anonymous Coward]

Except for the details

Re:This sounds great

[ShanghaiBill]

Except for the details

Details like Facebook's headquarters are in Menlo Park, not Fremont, with the SF Bay in between?

Putting a school like this in the SF Bay Area, where there are already oddles of opportunities, isn't doing much. If he wanted to make a difference, maybe he should have opened his school in West Virginia, or the Mississippi Delta.

 

Re:This sounds great

[Opportunist]

More details like "not offering traditional degrees". Then what kind of degree are they offering? I know of a cult or two that run their own "education" systems that produce an education that is mostly bullshit and not useful in anyway except within their own little bubble of a world, that way the kids have no choice but stay in the cult since, well, outside nobody really has any use for them.

I hope this isn't that kind of bullshit.

Re:This sounds great

[gweihir]

He is probably more interested in the public echo than in actually helping anybody.

Re:This sounds great

[gweihir]

In basically all cases it is "no traditional degree" == "no degree".

The graduates (well, sort-of) will have nothing they can use to pursue a regular job, so they are tied in wage-slavery to the few companies that hire people from this institution. The "test" at the start with 72...84h work weeks is a dead giveaway as well as to what the "quality" of this education will be.

Re:This sounds great

[stephanruby]

Also, I find it odd that he focuses on the C language.

Not that there is anything wrong with the C language, but the market for C developers is not currently that good because there is already an overabundance of C developers right now for the number of C projects out there.

Re:This sounds great

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the idea is that if you're capable of learning C, the other languages will seem pretty simple. (e.g. you don't wanna hire `programmers' who get confused by pointers)

Re:This sounds great

[jedidiah]

Has that ever worked out for you as an employee or as a manager?

That notion might work in some sort of model meritocracy but that's not what we live in but a long stretch. Most companies (and even managers) want more relevant experience and won't trust that you can "just adapt".

This is probably even more true for a "bootcamp".

Re:This sounds great

[Anonymous Coward]

I think a one year, intensive programming school would be a great thing. And if it is free, it would have helped 18 year old me. (although the 12 hour days, 6 days a week limits the time you can find a part-time job.) This type of education environment is what the big tech companies should be helping to fund.

It would be great, especially if I had done it before going to a normal college. If I had known how to program at a decent level when I started college, I would have gotten more out of it, and would have been better prepared for the work world and competing against existing programmers.

Re:This sounds great

[avandesande]

There are few or no computer jobs in West Virginia or Missippi Delta and a shortage of instructors. They give free rooms, so for the price of a bus ticket an enterprising rural student could give it a go....

Re:This sounds great

[Opportunist]

To be honest, since there is very little tangible in some fields of IT that you can cover sensibly with a degree, I'd sometimes actually prefer people to show me some prior work to a sheet of paper. Personally, I'd value being able to point to something that made an impact in the field and say "that was me" higher than formal education that may or may not be relevant to what my business is doing. And in most areas in IT this is still very possible, unlike in, say, pharmacy or biotechnology where the entry cost is so steep that you can't get anywhere "on your own".

Re:This sounds great

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds great... but now add the foundation for understanding the various disciplines that require software to solve problems...

Mathematics
Physics
Chemistry
Languages ...

well..

[Anonymous Coward]

at least they'll be prepared for the coding sweatshops of the silicon valley

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

at least they'll be prepared for the coding sweatshops of the silicon valley

for fuck sake it never ends with you people. we don't want the jobs sent overseas, we don't want you to hire overseas workers here, we don't want you to invest in any kind of education that might prepare future generations of Americans for employment in your sector, we don't want you providing training for local workers.

some of you people here are so crap at your jobs that you're shitscared you'll be replaced by akmed from punjab province at $5 a day, the next round of college grads that took and intro to computers class during their studies or weed-smoking phil from down the street who spent 3 days at a code college training course. maybe you need to get the fuck of slashdot, stop whining and start adding value and being actually good something to the point that you're not trivially replaceable.

Re: well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Gods bless you, soon-to-be-downmodded AC.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

^ This.

Re:well..

[vux984]

for fuck sake it never ends with you people. we don't want the jobs sent overseas, we don't want you to hire overseas workers here, we don't want you to invest in any kind of education that might prepare future generations of Americans for employment in your sector, we don't want you providing training for local workers.

I completely agree with your sentiment... but this... from the summary?

"Students spend 12 or more hours per day, six to seven days per week. If they do well, students are invited back...

WTF? Is that to condition you for the jobs they plan on giving you when you 'graduate'?

And this from your post:

some of you people here are so crap at your jobs that you're shitscared you'll be replaced by akmed from punjab province at $5 a day, the next round of college grads that took and intro to computers class during their studies or weed-smoking phil from down the street who spent 3 days at a code college training course.

I am 'shitscared' of any trend that appears to be designed to reset the work-life balance scale down to industrial revolution levels. If the up and coming work force are conditioned to accepting 12 hour days, 6-7 days a week, that represents a problem, for all of us.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

I am 'shitscared' of any trend that appears to be designed to reset the work-life balance scale down to industrial revolution levels.

So you are saying your education was 9-5, Mon-Fri just like your job? You were "conditioned" by the acceptance process for your education?

If the up and coming work force are conditioned to accepting 12 hour days, 6-7 days a week, that represents a problem, for all of us.

This is an educational bootcamp to qualify for the degree, or did you not read the article? Why is it some people feel so entitled that they fear the idea of other people putting in the hours and hard work to qualify for an education in their sector? If they want it badly enough then who are you to tell them they aren't allowed to work hard for it?

Re:well..

[luis_a_espinal]

for fuck sake it never ends with you people. we don't want the jobs sent overseas, we don't want you to hire overseas workers here, we don't want you to invest in any kind of education that might prepare future generations of Americans for employment in your sector, we don't want you providing training for local workers.

I completely agree with your sentiment... but this... from the summary?

"Students spend 12 or more hours per day, six to seven days per week. If they do well, students are invited back...

It's called attrition. Students are given free courses and boardrooms, and then it is sink or swim... in C. That's for a purpose. They'll be crunching not just coding, but also theory. Whoever remains, you can be assure they are worth their damn and deserve to get their education and boarding for free for the next three years.

Also, this is not unheard of. I'm not sure about other areas of the country, but here in South Florida there have been several boot camps that take people from backgrounds other than CS - educators, nurses, accountants, people who are already educated and have many years of work experience. In essence, working professionals who want to make a career change. They go for months crunching 12 hours a day Mondays through Saturdays, crunching programming as well as CS theory.

It is expensive, and they do it on their own pockets. Mind you, these are professionals taking a hit on their wallets paying for the course (as well as the loss of salary as they go through the bootcamps.) I've seen them getting jobs as developers, not code monkeys, but actually as developers.

The rigor, the attrition, it is simply necessary. This is the same for people trying to do a career change or start his/her own company. So why is this surprising?

Re:well..

[0100010001010011]

Said it better than I ever could.

Re: well..

[Anonymous Coward]

CS theory, huh?

BWAHAHAHA sure they do you dumb asshole. They're too busy learning JSonRails.NET.js 7.6 to waste time learning anything worth knowing beyond the moment of its use.

Re:well..

[matbury]

Actually, AC has a point. Spending that much time working/studying is counter-productive and will do more to hold them back. Over a hundred years of working week research and experience has taught us this but still we fail to learn. Perhaps we're just too tired to learn from all that hard working?

Re:well..

[Kohath]

To be fair, Silicon Valley does suck. The companies there should decentralize enough so someone who does good, valuable work can enjoy a decent lifestyle.

Re: well..

[Opportunist]

So what we get out of these "boot camps" is people who know the current technology, can be used for 4-5 years, then get thrown away for the next batch.

I have to say, that's efficient. Provided you don't give a shit about them, that is.

Re:well..

[vux984]

It's called attrition.

It's called stupid. The fact that I won't work 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week on somehting for months on end has zero correlation with how successful I will be at something.

Whoever remains, you can be assure they are worth their damn and deserve to get their education and boarding for free for the next three years.

If nothing else, you can be sure they're the sort of person who will put up with working 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week. And isn't that what they really want?

Also, this is not unheard of.

As if something being 'heard of' makes it a good idea.

The rigor, the attrition, it is simply necessary

It's really not. At certain stages of certain peoples lives it is something they can afford to do, and some of the people who can afford to do this, will find it worth their while. But it is not necessary. Not by a long shot.

This is the same for people trying to do a career change or start his/her own company.

As someone who has done the latter, I can say that failing to maintain a work life balance to get something off the ground is essentially the result of the lack of resources or the lack of planning.

Think of it this way, you wouldn't have to work 12 hour days for months on end if you'd had enough starting capital (for employees etc) and proper planning so you'd be able to get it off the ground and still take weekends off etc. Its certainly true that one can substitute 'sweat equity' for 'startup capital' or 'knowledge' if you want to (and many people do), but its not necessary, and its not even necessarily your best option. And to my mind, if you are starting your own business, and find yourself working 12+ hour days for months on end, your probably doing something wrong, something has gotten away from you ... and maybe you'll pull through with enough sweat equity. But if that's your plan going in?? Not a great plan.

But, to a certain extent sure, to each their own, if your the sort that wants to make a career change, as quickly as possible, and want to put your life and family and everything else on hold for months on end... fill your boots. But it is not the only way, it is not necessary, and its really not even all that healthy; so its not something we should be advocating or applauding. Those people in my experience, just live to work, its not a bootcamp where they come out the other side and settle into a 9-5... no, they're "those people" and they'll be putting in 60-80 hours+ week until they crash and burn.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

All we're talking about here is the month-long, sink or swim bootcamp to be able to qualify for the course. Naturally if somebody really wants to do the course they are going to put in long hours and dedicate that single month to attempting to achieve their goal.

The fact that I won't work 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week on somehting for months on end

Why the strawman argument? Nobody ever suggested anything of the sort. Are you being deliberately moronic or are you failing at basic reading comprehension?

Even if you were to go on this bootcamp you don't have to do 12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week for the one month, if you can achieve what you need to in less time then by all means go for it, more power to you. So what are you so upset about?

Re: well..

[gweihir]

Sounds accurate. Boot-camp to sweatshop to homelessness. Or maybe they have some way to recycle these people into prison after they are burned out?

Re:well..

[gweihir]

Well, "hard work" = "bad work" in almost all cases. Some people (like the typical CEO) can only do bad work and so compete on volume only.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean "over work" = "bad work". Most people think working extra hours = hard work. This is also untrue. "Hard work" = diligence. "Over work" is just dumb.

People often confuse the number of hours spent working versus how "hard" someone is working.

I once was refused a position because during the interview, they insisted that their environment was one where your hair was constantly on fire and that you would have to forgo time with family. I flat out expressed that "hair on fire" in my years of experience could be avoided by proper planning and due diliegence and that I did not anticipate having to work extra hours to meet my deadlines.

Unfortunately for them, they found my statement insufficiently humble because I did not want to kill myself for inferior product and they chose the guy that was willing to put in as much time as they wanted. Needless to say, I have yet to hear any product coming from said company in the market to date. And that was over a year ago. Had they gone with me, we would have been to market in 6 months from what they showed me.

I refuse to be a slave to someone else's concept of hard work. My results speak for themselves. I should not be judged on how many extra hours I put in.

The same applied in school. I asked permission to do my assignments differently in some of my coding classes because I wanted to apply the theory I had learned on modular design and wrote engines to solve and produce the results instead of relying on the rote instructions of how to assemble items into the final construct. My engine ran 5 times faster than the programs written with the stock libraries and could produce results matched to requirements without requiring a recompile.

Live and learn.

Re: well..

[Anonymous Coward]

How cute. You still believe there is some kind of meritocracy, wherein adding value is a strong predictor of not losing you job to whomever some accountant deems similar.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

So, 'Akmed', are you ready to learn the English language? You seem to think of yourself as a hotshot programmer, but why can't you use English grammar? Why the need for foul language? Programming also requires proper grammar and it seems likely that you can't do that either. Maybe you should get off your high horse and realize that you are flawed, just like the rest of us.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually you have it quite wrong. "Trivially replaceable" jobs, like fast food and retail, have little to worry about from foreign competition, because the economic value differential possibly gained from a replacement is very low.

High value add work like software gets scrutinized from every angle precisely because differential of the actual value produced and the amount you can get away with underpaying someone to perform it can be very large. It's precisely this differential that makes for an extra Porsche for management.

The first people to argue someone is "trivially replaceable" is management during salary negotiations--then will promptly be on the phone with potential customers asserting the exact same person/team is incomparably skilled. It's this endemic hypocrisy that leaves the engineer with no baseline by which to evaluate his/her work (one which is clearly affecting you on an emotional/cognitive level, by the way), and leaves them with such a "pit fighting" perception which benefits not at all the person doing the work (themselves), and wholly benefits those merely doing price arbitrage (management).

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

All completely unverifiable. Cool story.

Re:well..

[AtariEric]

The problem with your sentiment is that whether someone is "trivially replaceable" has nothing to do with skill. The only bar for replacement is whether the replacement is cheaper or not. Mr. Niel is betting that flooding the market with programmers who don't know their worth is going to save him enough money it's worth "educating" them for free.

Re: well..

[Anonymous Coward]

So what we get out of these "boot camps" is people who know the current technology, can be used for 4-5 years, then get thrown away for the next batch.

Yes, because most people spend 4-5 years working in the high tech field, and never end up learning new skills, new technology, and new ways of doing things. You're right, if you go through a code camp to get your foot in the door for a programming job, you'll just be useless in 4-5 years.

Much better to work at McDonald's for minimum wage, where you can REALLY have a good career path.

You sound dumb. And angry. Maybe it's because you think that once you learn a single thing, you'll never have to learn anything else, ever, again, and when the world refuses to accommodate your laziness, it makes you mad. Is that it?

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with your sentiment is that whether someone is "trivially replaceable" has nothing to do with skill. The only bar for replacement is whether the replacement is cheaper or not.

actually it has as much to do with skill as it does with price. you dont go and buy the cheapest thing you can find regardless of its capability or quality.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

you have it backwards. akmed doesn't have to be a hotshot programmer, he's mediocre at best but that's no worse than many American programmers though it is *much* cheaper.

hotshot programmers don't fear outsourcing or H1Bs, their management knows how valuable they are. if you think you're a hotshot programmer yet your management doesn't think so maybe you aren't or maybe you just aren't producing results for them. i see that level of arrogance all the time, particularly with programmers.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually you have it quite wrong. "Trivially replaceable" jobs, like fast food and retail, have little to worry about from foreign competition

im not talking about fast food and retail. that requires you to be local and it requires people skills.

High value add work like software gets scrutinized from every angle precisely because differential of the actual value produced and the amount you can get away with underpaying someone to perform it can be very large.

exactly, but not all software work is like that. for those who add considerable value through their advanced skills they have nothing to fear from H1Bs and outsourcing.

The first people to argue someone is "trivially replaceable" is management during salary negotiations

and you would have a massive problem when you can't immediately refute that statement. if they suggest that and you have no response then perhaps you are trivially replaceable.

its the same old arrogant story: management is ignorant of how awesome i am, im so good and management is so crap and its all their fault. do you really lack the ability to demonstrate to management that you are more valuable than outsourcing or H1Bs? ask yourself why that is and try not to just blame everybody else. take some responsibility for asserting yourself in your workplace and taking control of your career.

Re:well..

[vux984]

Why the strawman argument? Nobody ever suggested anything of the sort. Are you being deliberately moronic or are you failing at basic reading comprehension?

The part where after the month, those that were most successful are invited back...

Re: well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you're the one who sounds angry and downright mean.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep honing those psychic powers about your readers' lives and careers.

And maybe figure out everyone is "trivially replaceable" if there's money for management in it.

Re: well..

[luis_a_espinal]

So what we get out of these "boot camps" is people who know the current technology, can be used for 4-5 years, then get thrown away for the next batch.

I have to say, that's efficient. Provided you don't give a shit about them, that is.

You can look at it that way if it satisfy your nihilistic self. It is not like CS grads don't make their professional universe out of a stack with a 4-5 year lifespan and get stuck there forever. Whether it is a boot camp or a 4-year degree, what you get out of it (for the duration of your professional lifetime), that's on you.

Re: well..

[luis_a_espinal]

Sounds accurate. Boot-camp to sweatshop to homelessness. Or maybe they have some way to recycle these people into prison after they are burned out?

Well, I've seen college educated professionals from nursing, education and accounting doing a successful transition. But again, how you see the world is a reflection of you, not the world. You have no solution, you have nothing to offer, yet every possible alternative, however flawed it might be, you are quick to tear it down. Can't do shit, won't do shit, won't let others do shit. Whatever rocks your boat.

Re:well..

[luis_a_espinal]

It's called attrition.

It's called stupid. The fact that I won't work 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week on somehting for months on end has zero correlation with how successful I will be at something.

Well, there goes reading comprehension. No one said anything about that attrition as conditioning to work. It's attrition to eliminate those who won't want it bad enough.

Seriously, you are all a bunch of #firstworldproblem bitches. If you are getting a chance to make a career change, or an education FOR FREE (boarding included) with the condition to go through that attrition, wouldn't you do it?

Actually you wouldn't. Either because you do not need it/wanted it (which is fair), or because you lack the discipline and agency for it (in which case you have no soap box from where to be bitching about it.)

Re:well..

[luis_a_espinal]

Why the strawman argument? Nobody ever suggested anything of the sort. Are you being deliberately moronic or are you failing at basic reading comprehension?

The part where after the month, those that were most successful are invited back...

And for free, boarding and all. So what's the fucking problem? A free college-level education, free boarding included, with the price being to work your hands to the bone?

If you have a problem with this, either you do not need it/want it (which is fair), or you lack the discipline and agency to make it through. #firstworldproblem.

Re:well..

[jedidiah]

You don't but about 90% of the population does. That includes people that run corporations. That's why we have outsourcing and H1Bs and companies that think they can get away with paying half of what they really need to for talent.

There's plenty of examples I could give of the "cheap junk for less" mentality. Some of them are even tech products.

Re:well..

[jedidiah]

It sounds very much like the stories our Software Engineering professor would tell us. Except his stories weren't about interviewing for jobs but doing actual work on real projects.

Re:well..

[bjwest]

It's called attrition.

It's called stupid. The fact that I won't work 12 hours a day 6-7 days a week on somehting for months on end has zero correlation with how successful I will be at something.

Typical millennial. Want's everything handed to them with minimal effort, allowing the vast majority of their time spent on satisfying themselves and their desires.

You know what M*. vux984? This place is giving you an education, with a place to stay during your time there, entirely free of charge, and you're whining about having to work for it? They have a perfect right to make you work hard and prove you are worthy of them continuing to invest in you. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to attend, go spend upwards of $20,000/year and play to your harts content. At least until you graduate and find you spent so much time enjoying yourself that you didn't learn a damn thing and are now thousands of dollars in debt with little to no desirable skills.

If they play their cards right, these graduates could be highly sought after and paid well.

Re:well..

[vux984]

Typical millennial.

My kids are millennials.

Want's everything handed to them with minimal effort, allowing the vast majority of their time spent on satisfying themselves and their desires.

I spoke about balance. I think working hard is very important. But I also think taking time for yourself is important. I'm not complaining about a 40 hour work week... or even a 50 hour work week... I'm talking about 12+hr days, 6-7 days a week. And if you succeed, you get invited back for more of the same? That's not balance.

Why are implying that anything less than 84+ hour work weeks is "minimal effort".

At least until you graduate and find you spent so much time enjoying yourself that you didn't learn a damn thing and are now thousands of dollars in debt with little to no desirable skills.

I graduated from university, learned a ton, have no debt, and am fully employed, working for myself, from home, on terms I dictate. If only I'd gone to slavecamp because I've really messed things up.

If they play their cards right, these graduates could be highly sought after and paid well.

Sure, who wouldn't want people who demonstrated they are willing to work 80+ hours a week, and think I have a 'perfect right' to set any terms I like to keep 'investing' in them. Sounds like perfect slaves, er I mean... patsies, er I mean... 'valued employees'.

They have a perfect right to make you work hard and prove you are worthy of them continuing to invest in you.

So if instead of paying you money, the boss just provides you a mattress to sleep on and some free chow, and calls it on-the-job-education-training-internship instead of 'employment' then he has the "perfect right" to do whatever he wants with your working conditions...

Oh, how about instead of free of room and board they organize it a bit and pay you in company scrip instead. You can use that scrip to rent a room from the the company lodging and you can buy your food in the company store. What a great new idea! I wonder why all companies don't do this. I should write an app...

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the strawman argument? Nobody ever suggested anything of the sort. Are you being deliberately moronic or are you failing at basic reading comprehension?

The part where after the month, those that were most successful are invited back...

Where exactly does it specify that in the course you are expected to work 12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week for months on end? Oh right it doesn't, you just made that up. Why are you making up things and presenting them as fact?

Re:well..

[bjwest]

None of what you said has any relevance to the article, my post or this school. This is a school that is teaching you a skill that will be with you for the rest of your life -- something you would have to pay for otherwise, and something you should be happy to work hard for. They also are not an employer, who you are free to negotiate your salary with or go elsewhere for work. If you don't like the terms, like I said, you are free to not attend and pay upwards of $20,000 a year and perform however you desire. I'd look at them more of a coach. Do you think the Olympic athletes work 9 to 5 5 days a week? And they usually pay their coaches to work the hell out of them.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck are you even talking about? No wonder millennials are so messed up, they have parents like you that instill this idea that you don't have to work hard to get where you want to go. And remember, nobody ever suggested that anybody should have to work 12 hours a day, 6-7 days per week beyond that single month to try and get selected for a free education, and even that schedule is not mandatory. So explain, with that in mind (and not all the extra bits you made up including the hyperbole rubbish like "slavecamp", which quite frankly you are an insensitve ignorant cunt of a human for even making the idiotic comparison to) what is so wrong with that.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

not everybody is trivially replaceable, but it seems pretty much everybody here thinks they are yet continue to tell everybody how they fear outsourcing and H1Bs. if you can't even convince your own management that you are a valuable asset then maybe you arent and likely your self promoting on slashdot has no basis in reality.

Re: well..

[gweihir]

And the award for "biggest ego" goes to.... you!

You actually have no idea what I have, because I do not share it with low-lives like you that are in it solely to put others down.

Re:well..

[Anonymous Coward]

I convince my management daily. I have no issues with risk of replacement.

I also care about others. Nor am I deluded into thinking posting AC on Slashdot would work as "promotion" of myself or my career.

Back to the "pits", soldier. Maybe you'll survive a while on your psychic projection of traits onto others. I suggest though that learning how capitalization works will lessen how trivial you will be to replace.

Re:well..

[vux984]

Do you think the Olympic athletes work 9 to 5 5 days a week? And they usually pay their coaches to work the hell out of them.

-shrug-
I think the olympics are a sham, and when you get right too it, I mostly think Olympic athletes are little more than circus performers who provide a bit of entertainment to the masses. (I'll stop short of saying circus freaks, but on some level even that applies... "step right up, see the worlds fastest man!!") To be completely honest, Its not a lifestyle I'd even advocate as healthy. Spending one's life competing to be the best in the world at X, for some weird arbitrary athletic definition of X where victory is a combination of lucky genetics, training, and luck -- seems to me to be a pretty pointless endeavor when you get right down to it.

. They also are not an employer, who you are free to negotiate your salary with or go elsewhere for work. If you don't like the terms

The fact that I can choose not to go to this school, and choose not to accept their terms and conditions is exactly the same as me being free not to accept a particular job with particular working conditions.

The point stands that an employer is not allowed to offer certain working conditions. Even in the industrial revolution employees were "free" not to take employment terms they didn't like. Yet, we banned certain employment conditions anyway, and most of us called that 'progress'.

. This is a school that is teaching you a skill that will be with you for the rest of your life -- something you would have to pay for otherwise

Yes, and? How is that categorically different from a job offer that gives you experience that will be with you for the rest of your life, and they are even willing to pay you to give it to you so you can select the room and board you want? That doesn't mean the terms of employment can be anything at all. The law sets standards. What's the difference? Why is the 'employer' not allowed to set any terms he wants? But the "school" is?

Why shouldn't schools be restricted in how much class time they throw at students the same way employers are restricted in how much work time they assign employees? In both cases the student or the employee is free to choose a different school or employer, so why the double standard?

used to charge for coding class

[turkeydance]

now it's free. coding will be, too.

"Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like age discrimination, to me.

There must be thousands of older people between the ages of 30 and 55 whom are equally capable of contributing - and many of them already know how to program.

~childo

Re:"Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like age discrimination, to me.

There must be thousands of older people between the ages of 30 and 55 whom are equally capable of contributing - and many of them already know how to program.

~childo

Then they are free to do it someplace else, including the possibility of starting their own organization. It's never been cheaper or easier to organize people than today, so if they are as talented as you say, they can do it.

Why people fight to be where they're clearly not wanted, in the context of private free association, is a real mystery to me. Go be among people who do value you. If you really have so much to contribute, then that will be the other group's loss. If you don't, they will have had a sound point. Either way, water seeks its own level, so why all the bitching and moaning?

Re: "Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[Anonymous Coward]

The age requirement disheartened me too.

Why do people force themselves where they aren't wanted? I guess it's a way to try to change things to make the world more just and fair... whatever one personally believes that to be.

Thank goodness women and black people didn't go someplace else where their votes were wanted. Thank goodness gay people didn't go someplace else where their marriages were wanted.

Yes, you have to be a bit hard-headed and slightly crazy to go against the status quo. The abundance of those kinds of people in this country is one of the reasons I love it.

Re:"Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[Anonymous Coward]

A capable programmer who is over 30 and not already programming is rarer than a true scotsman.

Re:"Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[Anonymous Coward]

you would have been saying the same thing back during desegregation

Re:"Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[Anonymous Coward]

All of the top rated software engineers that I've worked with have been > 45yo. Talking people who would write a cpu simulator or machine language translator in a weekend to test some hardware bugs.

Re: "Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoa there Adolf, you got that all from some innocent comments about age discrimination? Christ, everyone knows you never go full retard.

Re:"Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[Gavagai80]

Good luck finding a 50 year old who can pull 12 hour days 6 days a week.

Re:"Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not that a 50 year old can't work 70+ hours a week, it's that by the time you reach that age you have realized you DON'T WANT TO... nor should you have to.

Re:"Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[AthanasiusKircher]

it's not that a 50 year old can't work 70+ hours a week, it's that by the time you reach that age you have realized you DON'T WANT TO... nor should you have to.

Indeed. Sometimes I read comments that seem to think anyone over the age of 30 or 35 must be senile, confused, and ready to park in a recliner and nap all day. In reality, 50-year-olds may not be in top physical condition, but they are certainly capable of accomplishing mental tasks for long hours.

I'm not that old (yet), but as the years go by, I realize how crucial "free" time is. Not just for relaxation or family or whatever. Study after study shows that downtime increases productivity (up to a point). When I have a large block of uninterrupted free time with no other responsibilities, that's the time I'm most productive in terms of learning new things, exploring, doing stuff I'd never do otherwise, etc. And those sorts of experiences are just about being more "well-rounded," they're actually about increasing intelligence, adaptability, and skills to deal with novel situations.

"Cramming" is never good for long-term skill building or retention. One semester in college I got overrides to basically take a load that was over twice what was typical for a student. I don't think I remember a single thing from that semester. Sure, I did fine in the classes, but it was a pointless exercise except for the fact that it got me closer to a piece of paper a little faster. (Actually, it didn't -- because I ended up with more than one major in the end, so it just allowed me to get two pieces of paper in the same amount of time.)

At some point, in any activity, there are diminishing returns by trying to do too much at one time. An athlete -- even an Olympic one -- who tried to train a specific skill 70+ hours per week would end up exhausted and likely injured. Similarly, your brain just isn't going to absorb information effectively in the same area or set of coding skills working 70+ hours per week.

50-year-olds know this. They also have a broader perspective on life where they realize that -- ultimately -- all you have is time. Finding a balance between how you manage your time in life is essential for most people in being satisfied and happy long-term. The earlier you realize this, the less of your life you waste being on the edge of "burn-out" and being less productive and simultaneously less happy than you could otherwise be.

That said, there are a small minority of people who seem to thrive on being ALWAYS busy and working. If they're not doing that, they don't know what else they could ever do with their time. They're the folks who still insist on 12-hour days when they're 60 years old. I've occasionally met those people, and about 5% of them are the most brilliant people you'd ever meet, and the rest are generally just suffering some sort of mental disorder or are "afraid" of life, but aren't actually more competent or knowledgeable than the average person. Anyhow, all of these "workaholics" are outliers. The rest of humanity doesn't tend to maximize productivity at 70+ hours/week.

Re: "Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[carolharlow323]

Upper age limit of 30?????? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!! There should be no upper age limit. Lots of god people out here who did not grab the golden ring the first time arond or got to the pary too early. baWE ALL DESERVE A CHANCE. It is illegal to discriminate on the basis of age. So no upper age limit is the way to go. a

Re:"Students between the ages of 18 and 30 ..."

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck finding a 50 year old who can pull 12 hour days 6 days a week.

Oh FFS. I'm 52 and I can be productive for at least as many hours a week as you can. Fuck off with that shit.

Where is the catch?

[bogaboga]

The courses are boot camp like experiences that do not offer traditional degrees, but hope to provide programming skills and experience to students for free.

(emphasis mine)

Question is: How do they make their money? Because I just do not believe there's no catch!! Anyone care to elaborate?

Re:Where is the catch?

[phantomfive]

Presumably they'll start charging later, once the experiment is shown to work. The initial students are guinea pigs, after all.

Alternately, they can expand, and when they have three consecutive quarters of exponential growth, go public (then, of course, sell their shares).

Re:Where is the catch?

[0xdeadbeef]

It's amortized over the lifetime of the graduates' lower salaries.

Re:Where is the catch?

[Anonymous Coward]

There was no catch in the French one at least. Maybe the American one is a trap

Re: Where is the catch?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. But perhaps if they label it a charitable enterprise then the Silicon Valley tech giants can give tax deductible donations, and they get more labor to boot.

Re: Where is the catch?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://venturebeat.com/2016/06/16/xavier-niel-explains-42-the-coding-university-without-teachers-books-or-tuition/

Re:Where is the catch?

[guruevi]

Donations. If you get a really good education and you make it big, universities will hit you up for charitable donations, big donations may even get your name on a room, department or building and you get tax and other benefits such as student internships (free labor) or unique access to a hiring pool (you can pick and groom individual students that do really well for example). Places like Harvard don't really need the student to give them money, the money is just a filter, the multi-billion dollar endowments and donations to the endowments alone cover all of their expenses.

Re:Where is the catch?

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't have teachers. The students work together and teach each other to progress. You get a certificate once you complete 21 projects and an internship. You gain points by doing projects to unlock the next level and its 'boss' project. With no formal, well paid staff the trade school's operating costs are likely far lower than normal schools. They shouldn't have large operating expenses, it'd be similar to operating a library. They never mention providing food nor say anything about how the dorms look.

People are weeded out through age requirements, online logic quiz, and then a 30 day educational death march ("15 hours a day, every day for 30 days"). They make a big deal about how everyone progresses at their own pace, but that's the same as with every other college: If you don't pass a required course you have to retake it before moving on.

I wonder what they'll do when the first age discrimination lawsuit hits them. Age is a protected attribute and you can't add random restrictions to it.

Re:Where is the catch?

[Opportunist]

Here's what I'd expect: Grab a batch of these young people and teach them whatever current technology is hot. The people you need right now. No need for theory, no need for foundation work, just cram the current latest and greatest tech into their heads.

When the next big thing arrives, throw them away and cook the next batch of young coders. That way you also have no reason to not work them to death and burn them out, they're useless to you in 3-5 years anyway.

Re:Where is the catch?

[Anonymous Coward]

The school is funded for something like ten years by Xavier Niel and then we don't know but given how tech companies love it (at least in France), it should not be hard partnership or something like that. Also the school is not supposed to make profits, just cover the cost of itself

Re:Where is the catch?

[Anonymous Coward]

(42 student from France here) We do not learn the latest tech, in fact we learn with tech that was the standard 20 years ago. But what we really learn is to learn by ourselves. I did two 6-month internship and each time I started without knowing anything about the tech used and was able to quickly catch up each time.

Re:Where is the catch?

[Anonymous Coward]

So, C is "latest tech" to you ? :) 60% of the projects are done in C at 42, it's all about problem solving and algorithms, absolutely not about techs and languages in this school.I would say the content is no different from a traditional university, the teaching method is unique though. As for the money, Xavier Niel gave 100 million $ for 42 Paris, and the same amount for 42 US, it's philanthropy, just like Rockefeller or Carnegie (who founded Carnegie Mellon University btw) did it.

Re:Where is the catch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly! Using this method you don't have to worry about paying a competitive salary to people (which always seems to go up) and you don't have to keep investing in in them over time (to help ensure your business remains competitive). At least with this method, you invest in someone initially filling the knowledge gap so they can fulfill your short term needs (all western CEO's think short term). Then when slave salary begins to creep up you can ditch them for the next set of newbies thinking they will make a career of coding and "eventually" get paid a decent wage. Over the long term (because you are always filling knowledge gap instead of creating innovation from knowledge accumulation and experience) the business is sure to remain "luke-warm" on innovation. This is definitely the key to short term success, at least until the CEO can skate out on the golden parachute. I'm in!

Re:Where is the catch?

[Anonymous Coward]

(emphasis mine)

Question is: How do they make their money? Because I just do not believe there's no catch!! Anyone care to elaborate?

VOLUME!

Re:Where is the catch?

[Anonymous Coward]

Donations? Hey, If I don't get a traditional degree, they won't get a traditional donation.

Re:Where is the catch?

[LienRag]

Education is not for profit in civilized countries, and Niel isn't American.

Ageism

[itamblyn]

If ever there was an example of ageism in tech...

Re:Ageism

[Anonymous Coward]

If ever there was an example of ageism in tech...

On the other side, people over 50 own most of the wealth in this country, tend to vote in blocs and thus are well represented and catered to, and actually have a realistic expectation of a decent retirement. Contrast that with the future the Millinials can look forward to - while being honest with yourself about what you see - and you'll understand why I won't be shedding any tears for people who have known a good economy relatively full of opportunity and upward mobility for almost all of their lives.

What you call ageism, I call a response to reality. Specifically, a response designed to target those who are most in need. You might as well call it "wealth discrimination" that we don't give welfare to people who are financially secure.

Re: Ageism

[nsuccorso]

Yup, everyone over 50 is well-off, no exceptions. Well, even if that's not true, then they only have themselves to blame. Didn't work hard enough don't you know. And if you're 35, or even 45, well, you can bugger right off! The world is fun when there are no shades of grey!

encoding

[dmbasso]

Franceâ(TM)s

And the walk of shame continues... bling bling bling! (https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=9511599&cid=52681371)

I hate Perl, but even I know that you could solve (palliatively) this disgrace with a simple:
$post =~ s/â\(TM\)/'/g;

Or just use SoylentNewsâ(TM) [yeah, it was on purpose] version of Rehash, as they fixed this ages ago.

VocTech Programming

[0100010001010011]

Finally, someone stateside is filling the gap between nothing and a full CS degree.

Re:VocTech Programming

[Anonymous Coward]

Most technical colleges have been offering Associate's Degrees in computer programming for decades now. And they're much better than some trash bootcamp "degree".

Re:VocTech Programming

[pz]

Finally? No. More like Johnny Come Lately.

Please see ArsDigita University. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Full disclaimer: I was a member of the ADU faculty. I've also taught at some pretty high-powered schools across the US. The ADU students were frelling amazing.

Re:VocTech Programming

[ahabswhale]

This isn't "some trash bootcamp degree". People who get past the initial training/testing phase, come back for 3 - 5 years. And that initial training is no joke. They aren't training javascript monkeys. It's serious C coding. In fact, I would bet people who actually make it through the entire program will be far better programmers than what a traditional college CS program can produce. These people aren't learning history, English, and all that other shit. They only do programming. 12 hours a day.

Re:VocTech Programming

[Gavagai80]

Of course, by the time they finish the program they'll be burnt out and looking for a different career.

Re:VocTech Programming

[ahabswhale]

Probably true.

Re: VocTech Programming

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing they aren't teaching history. It's very dangerous for slaves to know history. That's why the capitalist propaganda organs have been campaigning so damned hard to have history education de-funded in the public schools.

It's not a radical experiment

[superwiz]

Cooper Union was established by the industrialist Peter Cooper in the 19th century and until recently also had a free tuition. It was established for the same reasons: lack of skilled labor needed by the industrialists in New York. The school has 3, essentially independent, divisions: art, architecture and engineering. While their ability to offer free very high quality education (Cooper Union was ranked 1st among engineering schools by US News for many years) has diminished, the idea was still pioneered in the 19th century. So it's not all that revolutionary.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[0100010001010011]

Has it ever been extended to programming and software engineering? If so that's the new idea.

Thousands of slashdotters claim you can't write code with out a full BS in CS when we know that not to be the case.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[phantomfive]

Has it ever been extended to programming and software engineering? If so that's the new idea.

That's similar to claiming that X deserves a patent when you convert it to "X on the internet." In 40 years, if we have a Y industry, and someone creates a Y free university, I claim prior art for all values of Y.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

Thousands of slashdotters claim you can't write code with out a full BS in CS when we know that not to be the case.

Yeah, sure, you can learn to code in a few weeks or months. You can learn to operate a hammer and a chisel in a few minutes. That doesn't mean you're capable of actually producing anything worthwhile with either. Listen, learning the syntax of a programming along with some algorithms, data structures and design patterns is a nice start but it's only a start. The real challenge is being able to wrap your head around a particular problem domain. People with 4 year CS degrees have demonstrated they can do that (at least if they went to most schools). Sure, some boot camp graduates can too but not nearly as many as you think.

The bottom line is this, you along with many other people before you have naively confused the tool with what can be done with the tool. The tool is easy to familiarize yourself with. Applying it competently to build something somebody will pay you for is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[0100010001010011]

And some people learn by doing while others learn by academic.

Some people pick up a hammer and chisel and have a knack for it. They don't need to know the full theory behind how the chisel applies its force.

Sure, some boot camp graduates can too but not nearly as many as you think.

I'm a mechanical engineer overwhelmed with programming work. Not CS work, programming. I need a VocTech level programmer to implement what I tell them. I don't need it the most efficient or the best data structure. I need a script or program to do X.

And if they use that to eventually learn the best and most efficient ways, good for them. Some people just want to hit the hammer and chisel.

I trust an electrician to wire my house more than I trust an electrical engineer just as I trust a plumber more than I trust a engineer with a PhD in fluid dynamics to plumb it.

I need the programming equivalent of electricians and plumbers, not engineers. Thousands of industries need it as well. There are people out there still manually sorting Excel documents set on retirement. Those jobs need taken and they need to be filled by people that know how to do a for loop. Not one that has 2 semesters of Linear Algebra and a compilers class.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[0100010001010011]

If it was so obvious why hasn't anyone done it with the IT and CS industries before?

Now they just resort to importing H1Bs.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[phantomfive]

If it was so obvious why hasn't anyone done it with the IT and CS industries before?

You have a question.

Now they just resort to importing H1Bs.

You have an answer.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[exomondo]

That's similar to claiming that X deserves a patent when you convert it to "X on the internet."

Except for the bit where nobody is claiming it deserves a patent of course. Just because it's a new idea doesn't mean it is patentable.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[Lumpy]

"I need a VocTech level programmer to implement what I tell them. I don't need it the most efficient or the best data structure. I need a script or program to do X."

you need the old Visual Basic 6. Super fast from idea to working product.

Microsoft decided that they needed more CS nonsense in VB so that is why VB# is barely used anywhere. if you learn VB# you might as well learn C# and the learning curve on that is massively steeper than VB6 ever was.

A lot of us hated VB, but it absolutely had it's place. a non programmer could knock out a solution pretty darn fast with it.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[0100010001010011]

Python has taken over as the new VB. The point is I still need people to write it.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

You are either intentionally misunderstanding or the idea is just beyond your grasp. Learning the tool is not the same as being able to effectively reason about a particular problem domain. You can teach people how to program fairly easily. Loops, conditionals, etc. aren't that complex. The problem comes when you tell somebody to apply what they've learned to a particular problem. The problems programming is used to solve are often much more complicated than programming itself. These boot camp graduates for the most part are going to do nothing but cost you money when you hire them to program within the mechanical engineering domain. You'll figure that out and when you do, don't say I didn't try to warn you.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people pick up a hammer and chisel and have a knack for it. They don't need to know the full theory behind how the chisel applies its force.

This doesn't apply to logic. Logic is theory and not knowing the theory behind logic means you don't know the logic. Programming is all about logic.

But I do understand where you're coming from, analogies are never perfect.

And some people learn by doing while others learn by academic.

Using this quote in conjunction with the above quote gives a good idea. Some people need practice(learning from mistakes) at each and every new type of logic problem they encounter, while others just have a knack for logic and require virtually not practice to get it right the first time.

The biggest issue I have with people who need practice is that they only realize something is wrong when something goes wrong. They don't have the knack for logic that allows them to know when they have encountered something new and they use the wrong tool for the job. People who have a knack for logic don't need to spend several days learning from mistakes, they can see the answer in seconds. To some degree I exaggerated "days", but not quite. Some people are placed in a senor position because they have a lot of experience, aka, making mistakes. They may lead a project that takes a few months or years to complete. Only at the end of that project do they realize they made many many mistakes. Someone more gifted in logic would have looked at the issues months or years ago and decided to take another approach. That small amount of time the more gifted person spent choosing a better solution pays off in spades and now teams of programmers don't need to spend man-months of time refactoring to fix design bugs or bandaiding technical debt everywhere.

This is why many people claim you either have it or you don't.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[phantomfive]

Good thing no one has patented the idea of looking up in a dictionary, you still have a chance to look up "similar" and relieve your ignorance.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[exomondo]

It's similar to claiming converting to "X on the internet" is a new idea, it is fundamentally different to claiming it is patentable. But ignorance of that is exactly what leads to stupid patents in the first place.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[0100010001010011]

I could train a high school student to do what I need done. I'll hire someone that does well at one of these and teach them what they need to know beyond that. For a fraction of what a CS student would cost and I'd end up with what I needed.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

You can write code. But you can't solve the problems without either a) following a formula, or b) re-inventing the wheel.

Picture this:

Lotus Notes developer (Notes certified Developer) that gets paid 3x my salary (years ago) asks me (BS CS grad) who picked up VB in a weekend how to code a sort for a list of strings in his dynamic drop down list. I mentioned to him he should probably use a radix or a quicksort, not knowing how many items in his list. He said he would have up to 20 items in his list - at which point I told him to use a bubblesort. He had a blank look on his face. I said - sort it the way you would a bunch of blocks. Blank look. I asked him if he had done any sorting. He answered no. I asked him to look it up. I came back an hour later and asked me if I could assist him. I wrote the pseudo-code for him. He came back asking me if I could help him with the translation. I ended up giving him a worked out example for a different number of items.

Take home lesson:. CS Grads that have a theoretical background learn how to solve problems and match requirements to solutions. Programming is not the hard part.

It's a paint-by-numbers person claiming to be an artist. They can DO art, but it doesn't make them artists.

Similarly, being able to PROGRAM, makes you a PROGRAMMER (read as Human Coding translator) or a DEVELOPER (one who can travel the road already traveled).

BS CS Grads that have theory are more akin to engineers that can create novel solutions that work better and more reliably because they stand on the shoulders of giants and entire body of knowledge - not because they stand on the shoulder of a particular author.

BS CS Grads tend to end up in architectural positions because they can see the forest and the trees at once.

There is value to each level, but no one EVER stated you could not CODE without a degree. It's a matter WHAT you CODE and to what purpose that changes with the degree.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

Looking up something in the dictionary cannot be patented because all the search algorithms the human brain uses have prior art: the human brain. We are just explaining to the computer how we do it innately.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[olau]

In Denmark, university education is free for all Danes. You also get a small allowance each month, just enough to rent a room or small apartment and buy (cheap) food. So that part of it is not that radical outside the US.

Re: It's not a radical experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

Let us hope your business reaps the failure it so richly deserves.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[XxtraLarGe]

In Denmark, university education is free for all Danes. You also get a small allowance each month, just enough to rent a room or small apartment and buy (cheap) food. So that part of it is not that radical outside the US.

The difference here is that the "free" education isn't being picked up by the taxpayers, so not exactly the same.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[jedidiah]

Since Cooper has an engineering college, they probably have a CS department too. Many other engineering colleges do. Depending on your point of view, CS is just another branch of engineering.

The same idea applies to mathematics or business.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[jedidiah]

You're also not limited to the Danish college lifestyle. You can move on to something better.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

America spending Trillions of taxpayer's money to wage wars overseas, but god forbid any of this goes to finance the neighbour's kids education. facepalm.

Re:It's not a radical experiment

[Anonymous Coward]

Python is NOTHING like old VB. creating a user GUI is a painful process in Python and requires significant education.

VB6 a freaking sales manager can write an app in 2 weeks.

Learning to Program was always free

[Anonymous Coward]

"Code" my arse. It's "programming" - and barrier to entry has never been lower. The hardware has finally hit sub ZX81 prices, the Dev software is free. The web is full of beginners guides. 30 years ago, you had to commit - but a 12 year old who was really interested could learn assembler from magazines. But it'd take time & money to get/create the tools. Now a 9 year old could learn JavaScript / Lua / etc without even downloading stuff they don't already have. All this "everyone muzt be taught to code coz Appz" smacks of "most people with a talent for it will learn it anyway, this is for the rest who are only chasing $$". Then what - the minority who want to and actually could do great things in the field will be swamped by "Meh - paycheck" types. Keeps the wages down though doesn't it?

Re:Learning to Program was always free

[Anonymous Coward]

"Code" my arse. It's "programming"

I have to disagree. There are code monkeys who can knock out what's little more than templated source code. But ask them to write a non-trivial program from scratch and they're helpless.

Is volume really the answer

[Tangential]

Is throwing quantity at this problem the right answer? If we train lots and lots of people in programming is it really going to help? Is it even going to be successful? How can people believe in this approach?

If someone opened a massive free school for training sculptors and enrolled 1000s of students no one would believe that they would end up with hundreds of Michelangelo's. They wouldn't get lots and lots of excellent sculptors. They'd be lucky to find a 1 or 2 really good ones out of every 1000 students. Then they'd find a few more fairly good ones and the rest would be mediocre to bad. Some would be able to create really elegant statues, some would be good at making blocks, bricks and tombstones and the vast majority would make gravel.

The only difference between this and the mass programming schools is that with sculpting most people could look at their rock based product and easily discern its quality. Not so for programming. That's why this industry is rife with gravel producing developers who try and pass their product off as statuary.

I think the public is being deluded about this.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

If something is relatively scarce, isn't volume(combined with sorting) essentially the only option? I suspect that the fuzzy optimists who think that just increasing access to CS courses will get all the kiddies involved in Tomorrow's App Economy or some nonsense are going to be disappointed; but the difference between the optimists and the pessimists isn't really a question of how many people you want to evaluate for potential; just what percentage of them you expect to wash out.

There is an element of public delusion to this, in that it isn't polite to mention the suspicion that most of your eager students will be culled or identified as mediocre and relegated to grunt work; but the more pessimistic you are about the quality of the average candidate, the greater your incentive to evaluate as many as possible to find the really promising ones.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Shados]

Its already causing problems. Its super hard to make a full team of half decent software engineers, because the signal to noise ratio is so bad. Even very successful companies are filled with teams where 1 person is doing the job while 10 people are just dicking around arguing about which 3rd party package to pick between the latest trend and the new fad.

And since no one figured out how to properly screen for good programmers yet, the only semi-acceptable teams are the ones in companies that are willing to just can those who can't make it, and then they end up in the news for being "horrible places to work" ::shrugs:: We need a second dot com crash.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[0100010001010011]

The point is that you don't need a team full of software engineers. Just like building a building doesn't need a team full of mechanical engineers.

You need a few engineers to make core decisions and plumbers, electricians and programmers to actually get their hands dirty and build the design.

The reason you haven't found the right people is you're looking in completely the wrong places. A CS education is a full background in the *theory* just as an engineering one is. You need people that went to 'trade schools' to do a bulk of the work.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Opportunist]

You do not want more than one alpha geek in your team.

People seem to think that teamwork only means that people have to have the same level of skill and then they'll work together anyway. Bullshit. People are very different and you have to take into account what position and role they will fill in their "pack". If you put two alphas in you will have them bicker and fight over the minute detail of nonsense just to prove who is the one on top and who is "right", while getting exactly jack shit done. It's ok, and actually very useful, to have one such person who puts his foot down and declares that something will be done THAT way, that's very useful, but you need the rest of your team to have a mentality to follow this lead.

Careful with bravos who notice that the alpha is a dud. Then you'll have a real problem at your hands.

But seriously, people are just animals, handle them like that. I can't be the only one who noticed that.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Except in programming where the minor details of what you type really matters. If you build a blueprint detailed enough that a random code monkey can follow it and have the finish program work as expected, then you could have clicked a button and had all the code auto-generated from the blueprint.

There are huge performances differences between string.contains('.csv') and string.endsWith('.csv') and they'll both seem to work exactly the same if you don't test your code properly. (And both of those have at least 3 bugs if you're using one to detect the type of a user provided file.) Code monkeys don't know how to do (or at least I've never see any that do) proper error handling and checking. Forgetting the line to delete an object is easy and could destroy customer data (like if a destructor flushes data to disk). Off-by-one errors are still too easy to make. Too many projects use unnecessary risky/unsafe languages. Almost no one checks for memory allocation errors or failed thread starts. Etc...

You need disciplined people if you want to create high quality software products. And if you feel the need to put 30 developers on the same project, you should probably redesign it. Individual projects never need that many developers. Redesign with a DSL and the break components into individual projects/services.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[0100010001010011]

And the programmers should know the minor details between those. The engineers don't. There are thousands of small things that a plumber and electrician need to know that the engineer doesn't. (And vice versa).

How about I decide what I need? I need code monkeys. I don't need a CS degree because they're 'useless' for what I need them to do. I would prefer to hire locally but if you don't want to fund this education I'll be happy getting a H1B to do it.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Experience and knowledge are completely uncorrelated with quality programmers. In programming, theory drives the implementation and the implementation drives the theory. You can't have one without the other without running into a disaster. Some people seem to think that a system architect's job is to define the high-level parts of the code, APIs, contracts, etc, but then just delegate out the implementation to the grunts. That is not true at all. The architect also needs to define the implementation.

Again, the design decides the implementation and the implementation decides the design. Getting this near perfect is hard for all but those who have a knack for it. Architects are supposed to be the best programmers. If they're not good at programming, then they should not be an architect. Not to mention the other issue with the echo-chamber think-tank of "best practices". A good architect needs to know when to break the rules. Best practices are only rules of thumb, and even the most regarded programmers who say to "NEVER ever under any circumstance" do something, typically imply only if your less than great.

Really, read some books from some of the best programmers and architects out there. They all say in different ways that a good programmer knows when not to listen, no matter who the other person is and how fervently they're saying not to do something. Being smart enough to truly know when not to listen is rare.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Alpha to alpha. Amen.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Careful with bravos ...

Alpha: Leader
Beta: Specialist, or super-subordinate

Gamma: educated workers (middle-class)
Delta: skilled workers (lower-class)
Epsilon: sweat-shop labourers

Re:Is volume really the answer

[ahabswhale]

This isn't one of those stupid bootcamps. This is serious shit. You should read up on it. In fact, they have a video where they talk about their philosophy and expectations (which are very high). It's also a 3 - 5 year program. These people will outcode the shit out of a CS grad.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

First, they're not looking to produce Michelangelos...second, anyone who can pass high school algebra can be taught to program.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Dog-Cow]

Almost no one checks for memory allocation errors...

You write as if that's a bad thing. Just about the only thing you can do at this point is crash, with more or less grace. How graceful to be is a product decision, not a technical one.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[AmiMoJo]

If programming is so hard that the majority can't become proficient, then we as computer scientists and engineers have failed. We expect computers to be easy to use for all sorts of other tasks, and over the decades have found ways to make those tasks easier, so if it still requires the kind of intellect only found in 0.2% of the population to write software then it's as much our fault.

Fortunately it's not nearly that hard to produce a lot of useful, reasonably good code. And as ahabswhale points out, it's a 3+ year programme so it's not like there isn't adequate time to learn the required skills.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Shados]

If you're working on a big database + rails CRUD project where you need a bunch of hands to make forms, sure, I'll take that.

Of course, you could drastically reduce cost by architect a system that doesn't need to just brute force code so much.

And that's the difference: if I'm building a sky scrapper, I need some architects and engineers to figure out how to make it stand 50+ stories tall, and then I need hands to build the hundreds and hundreds of identical units inside.

In software engineering, I can architect a way to only have to make 1 of those units and never have to worry about the grunt work. There's always SOME level of grunt work, but it's very small compared to non-software fields.

And then there's actually complex software projects, which is where a large chunk of the money is. Not just chugging out stupid games and apps. And this is where code monkeys are useless, and where they keep being noise for the signal.

That being said, right now, those coding boot camps are chugging out people who arent even fit to be code monkeys.... so the argument doesn't even apply.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Shados]

You're right, I don't want many alphas. But that's not what im talking about here. I'm just talking about how the majority of people who call themselves programmers/software engineers/whatever aren't even fit for a normal individual contributor role.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Pumping out sheer volumes of people with questionable programming skill will, naturally, be enough for some businesses in the short term...long term business may be screwed but business does not think long term in the US.

The more salient point should be this (and why US folk should embrace it)...

An "overload" of "coders" injected into the nation (of US origin) would most definitely be opposed to by the H1B crowd and others who would suddenly discover that their "slave labor" prices (by developed economy standards) aren't quite low enough in an over-saturated market. Now, the only counter-move I can see from such a development is that a renewed push for completely off-shoring is done - if you can't make insane profit by importing slave labor to a country with a higher standard of living than yours, bring the actual work to the slave labor in your own country. With the caste system firmly in place (in most of the slave labor countries), you are assured of "good" profits and your slave labor never has to be paid that much.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[stinerman]

And when the HR department sees that they have no degree from an accredited school?

Re:Is volume really the answer

[ahabswhale]

You know, it's possible for this school to develop its own reputation. There's nothing magical about a piece of paper.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

And the programmers should know the minor details between those. The engineers don't.

In programming, an engineer that doesn't know those small things is worthless. When it comes to building, the implementation details may not matter as much, but in software, they matter a lot.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Programming isn't hard because of anything anyone has done, it's almost no one thinks the correct way. It is impossible to make the typical person good at programming without changing the typical person. You can't make a rock good at logic. Have you ever listened to a normal person describing a problem? They say all kinds of illogical contradictory things and don't notice. They're fundamentally incapable of proper reasoning. The only reason anything ever seems to work is people are great at compensating for their mistakes, but they will always make the same mistakes over and over and over, just in ever so slightly different ways that aren't technically the same.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[stinerman]

No, there isn't. Except there's a lot of HR departments out there that believe there *is* something magical about that paper.

No one ever got fired for buying IBM just as no one ever got fired for insisting on the magical piece of paper.

Re:Is volume really the answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Crashing with less grace is a security risk.

Beware billionaires bearing boot camps...

[Anonymous Coward]

Billionaires aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts....

Age Limits?

[HockeyPuck]

Why is it limited to ages 18-30?

#Ageism

Re: Age Limits?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they are run by dumb Eurotrash that's just itching to see what the inside of a US courtroom looks like.

Re: Age Limits?

[Opportunist]

Oh. Sorry. I guess that doesn't fly in the US. Well, it seems we should close shop then.

I am certain the US can build their own free education system that teaches anyone anything for free.

Re: Age Limits?

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.khanacademy.org/

Re: Age Limits?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone being anyone between the ages of 18 and 30? That's sort of the problem, this isn't for anyone. If it were for anyone then it wouldn't be a problem.

Already experimented in France

[manu0601]

"42 US" reproduces the "42" school created in November 2013 in France. I still have no opinion on that experiment, but at least US students can expect organizational details to be sorted out, since it was already done elsewhere.

You answered the first question out of my mouth

[tlambert]

You answered the first question out of my mouth, when you noted that it was not accredited.

As a proud owner of Photoshop, I now have a "Certificate of Completion" from them.

When do they open, exactly, so I know when to put it on my resume?

Re:You answered the first question out of my mouth

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you've got it backwards. Lack of accrediation != lack of verification.

Lack of accreditation means nobody cares if you have it on your resume, but if they do bother to check, they'll quickly find out that you're lying, and that's grounds for immediate dismissal at most places of employment.

Free* coding academy

[Anonymous Coward]

Free* coding academy. * Assumes your time is worthless and opportunity costs are zero.

Re: You answered the first question out of my mout

[Anonymous Coward]

So like, print out two copies, then we'll put each other down as references. Anybody else want in on this?

Make it truly free.

[Lumpy]

Release all the education materials and the lesson recordings online for free for anyone and everyone not rich enough to move there or live there.

True freedom is to give it to everyone everywhere.

I thought China bought USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now France is getting pieces of the action? The USA is being divvied up. They are broke and basically up for sale to the globe.

I anticipate Israel getting a larger chunk after the US media gets Sanders elected.

Re:I thought China bought USA?

[Opportunist]

Oh please, the US has always been for sale. Why don't you like capitalism, what are you, a pinko commie?

Re:I thought China bought USA?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not the type to sell out my country bitch. Maybe you are? Maybe that is why your day is coming.

Treason is a rope for a reason.

Re: You answered the first question out of my mout

[Opportunist]

I'm good, I have a lot of "IT security professional" certificates from various places. Some of them even have an office.

Frankly, there isn't as much snakeoil in the rest of the IT industry as in security alone.

stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried it. Its pretty stupid. It shows you 4 squares. You click the squares in under 3 seconds. This approximates 'logic' (que the wooing sound).

So I built a script that clicks the squares. Apparently my bot made it in. Oh but shit Im too old. Fucking waste of time IMO.

unpaid interns wanted for 3-5 years

[BarbaraHudson]

How is someone between 18 and 30 supposed to survive long enough to do this program - one that doesn't even give you an accredited piece of paper - if they're doing 12 hour days 6-7 days a week?

My bet is that after the trial period, the "survivors" will be doing 3 to 5 years of commercial coding for free as their "lessons". That's shittier than an internship.

"12 or more hours per day, six to seven days..."

[Anonymous Coward]

"per week." In other words, they're preparing them for a programming job in Seattle. It sucks how Seattle Hundreds (16 hours a day Mon-Thu, 12 hours per day Fri-Sun) has become the new norm here.

Let's play a game, and call it an entrance test.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure if this is an elaborate hoax, or just a really shitty opening volley. The 'test' immediately after registration is playing 'memory' for ten minutes.

The next one says it's a few hours long and honestly I'm bored. Is it a weed-out process? Maybe. But frankly real college wasted enough of my time; and I don't see wasting any more on this.

Is that really possible though

[SuperKendall]

I need the programming equivalent of electricians and plumbers, not engineers.

Is that really possible for programming though? I am doubtful you can really separate things to that degree. Even maintenance (especially maintenance?) requires advanced skills not to screw things up as you go, and advanced skills are also needed to create something solid that performs well and does not collapse...

To use your analogy, what is sometimes an electrician came because of a power outage but found that equipment in the house connected to the electric lines needed new power supplies built? Well then you'd be pretty damn sorry you didn't have an EE.

That's what makes programming hard, is that to be good you need to be the engineer AND the plumber/electrician. If you are not you will mess something up on the either end or for the group of people you are not in.

There are people out there still manually sorting Excel documents set on retirement. Those jobs need taken and they need to be filled by people that know how to do a for loop.

But know nothing about floating point, and in ten years as the numbers drift there will be a reckoning...

Not one that has 2 semesters of Linear Algebra and a compilers class.

Like I said, turns out in ten years that was the one you needed after all, and your short-sightedness caused calamity (and more work for the competent so thanks for that I guess).

Re:Is that really possible though

[0100010001010011]

That's what makes programming hard, is that to be good you need to be the engineer AND the plumber/electrician.

No, that is what a bunch of middle aged CS degrees sitting on slashdot are saying.

It's not been my experience.

If you are not you will mess something up on the either end or for the group of people you are not in.

And yet houses get built still.

Like I said, turns out in ten years that was the one you needed after all, and your short-sightedness caused calamity (and more work for the competent so thanks for that I guess).

"Hire us CS majors or or else"

Re:Is that really possible though

[SuperKendall]

No, that is what a bunch of middle aged CS degrees sitting on slashdot are saying.

You mean the people with more experience than you? Why yes, yes we are.

It's not been my experience.

It has been mine, and mine obviously counts for more.

And yet houses get built still.

You mean the houses that collapse in the slightest digital breeze? The houses that are being hacked constantly? The houses that catch on fire because someone opened a door? Well I guess it's all fine then, because technically "a house" existed for some time.

"Hire us CS majors or or else"

No you arrogant idiotic prick, you are missing my whole point. It's not about CS. It's about good programming not being suited to just anyone, at least not without a lot of training and experience, or what they build (and fix) is crap. That can all be learned by anyone in lots of different ways, a CS degree is just one and probably not even the most efficient (I think especially so these days when the idea of going to college seems an absurdly stupid waste of time and money). But it does mean you can't just take a guy out of a six week bootcamp and put them on production code without terrible consequences - maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but sooner rather than later.

Re:Is that really possible though

[0100010001010011]

You still aren't getting it. I don't need a CS major

Whine, gnash your teeth, complain. I don't need one. Sorry.

Slashdotters are entertainingly narrow minded as to what 'code' is and where it lives. I don't need someone to write 'production code'. I need someone to write code so that I don't have to and can concentrate on other stuff.

Re:Is that really possible though

[Anonymous Coward]

But it does mean you can't just take a guy out of a six week bootcamp and put them on production code without terrible consequences

Specifically what 6 week bootcamp are you talking about here? The only thing close is the month-long pre-selection bootcamp for the course. Nowhere was it stated that there was some bootcamp to take you from nothing to production code in 6 weeks.

Some of the people arguing here seem to be so infuriated at the thought of a non-traditional path to a CS career that they just make stuff up to argue against, stuff that nobody even suggested. And you are so infuritated that you don't even realize you are making these things up.

Re:Is that really possible though

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet houses get built still.

Not they don't. In the hypothetical world of your analogy, the houses are all on fire. In the world of programming, if you don't know all of the roles, you will make something break for someone else. A better analogy than a house would be a 100 story sky scraper, and at every story the joints are 1 inch off. That's technical debt.

air jordan pas cher 2016 Femme

[zhenfanlon]

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Well rounded individuals.

[Snufu]

Contextual problem solving skills.

Big picture thinking.

Or

"sink or swim" program that begins with C. "Students spend 12 or more hours per day, six to seven days per week. If they do well, students are invited back to a three- to five-year program with increasing levels of specialty."

Re:Well rounded individuals.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think the two aren't compatible ? Anyway, the "sink or swim" part is just the selection process. The school offers a lot of tough algorithmic and AI projects.

Re:Well rounded individuals.

[Anonymous Coward]

"sink or swim" program that begins with C. "Students spend 12 or more hours per day, six to seven days per week. If they do well, students are invited back to a three- to five-year program with increasing levels of specialty."

Typical hazing... Repugnant, in all days and ages, everywhere...

Re: You answered the first question out of my mout

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm good, I have a lot of "IT security professional" certificates from various places. Some of them even have an office.

Frankly, there isn't as much snakeoil in the rest of the IT industry as in security alone.

Funny how people that say these things tend to profit from the state of affairs and never state how things ought to be. It's almost as if those words are purely ego driven, to push down the value of any competitors. As if an, opportunist said it for their own benefit above facts.

But certainly words speak louder than actions and the truth is an entire industry starving for people with sky-high and rising salaries is wholly without value.

Xavier?

[Anonymous Coward]

A guy called Xavier starts a school for people with special abilities... sounds promising.

Carnegie Mellon University

[tomhath]

Another one that started the same way is Carnegie Mellon University

Re:Carnegie Mellon University

[superwiz]

Didn't know that about CMU. I guess just because CU lasted as a free school for much longer. In the end, for most schools it's about the current value of the endowment. A few (maybe all?) Ivy Leagues won't charge tuition for families under certain income levels. But the ability to offer high-quality free education really lasts only as long as the alumni keep making donations and the endowment is not invested poorly.

42 discriminates

[Anonymous Coward]

Just an FYI. Per their site, if you're over 30 years old, don't bother applying.

Re:over-reach toward women

[Anonymous Coward]

What is a "tek" school? Is it a place to learn how to smoke the fictional drug "Tek" from William Shatner's TekWar series? Or is it a school that teaches how to use Tektronix instruments? Finfet landscape? How poetic!

Teaching C for JavaScript monkeys?

[ErichTheRed]

So, this looks very interesting. If I hadn't noticed that this course was going to begin by teaching C, I would have assumed it was just another one of these crappy coder bootcamps that will be around until the Web 2.0 bubble pops. These places stuff newbies' heads full of "RESTful AngularNodeRuby on Rails in Docker container microservices" with zero backstory and expect them to turn out useful work. They existed in 1999 as well, but back then it was HTML and MCSE bootcamps.

The whole "educational deathmarch" thing is an issue for me. I work in a normal job for a normal company, but I've now seen two dotcom-style bubbles forming around the Silicon Valley 100+ hour work week ethos. The more new people are conditioned to work these insane hours and never settle down, the worse off the industry as a whole will be. I now see normal companies starting to say "we need to be more like Facebook/Google." In come the Nerf toys and beanbag chairs, free food and the 100 hour work weeks. The reality is that most people have lives outside of work and it's unhealthy to not have downtime.

It'll be interesting to see (a) what they turn out given that they're starting with a more fundamental base than the usual creaky tower of JavaScript newbies these days learn, and (b) how long before the whole thing folds up when the demand for cheap web monkeys goes back down to normal levels.

Worth Every Penny

[tmjva]

And you get what you pay for.

H1B

[BigChigger]

I'd like to see how many people getting in this program are also H1B holders, and supposedly already know how to code since they've been hired to do so.