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Apple CEO Tim Cook on EU Apple Tax Case: 'Total Political Crap' (arstechnica.com)
Earlier this week, Apple was ordered to pay a record sum of 13 billion euros plus interest after the EU said Ireland illegally slashed the iPhone make's tax bill. At the time, Tim Cook found the accusations "baseless." In a new interview, he had more things to say:A war of words has erupted between Europe's competition chief and Apple CEO Tim Cook after Ireland was ordered to reclaim $14.5 billion in back taxes from the company. Cook, in an interview with the Irish Independent, labelled Brussels' competition chief Margrethe Vestager's decision as "total political crap." He claimed Ireland was being "picked on" and that he hoped to see the Irish government launch an appeal against the ruling. Vestager refuted that claim when quizzed by reporters on Thursday. "This is a decision based on the facts of the case. The figures that we used in our decision are the figures that we got from Apple themselves," she said. "There are very, very few figures in the public domain. More transparency would be a good thing, for example, a country by country reporting. If it was up to me, the non-confidential version of the decision would have been published yesterday, because that is another way of enabling everyone to see what we have decided and on what basis we have made this decision. Right now the ball is in the hands of Apple and Ireland."
It's "political crap" because it's something you don't agree with. Law of the land, buddy.
Wait, I thought that liberals like Cook were all for gouging those eeebil corporations and making them pay their fair share? If he was being consistent, he'd be happy to pay and then ask, "thank you sir, may I have another?"
I don't understand. I just thought we did business in various countries around the world, and didn't pay taxes. People,people are supposed to pay all the taxes.
: P
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
Baseless?
Translation: Waaaahhhh!
That is all.
I agree they should pay, but actually it doesn't matter if Apple has obeyed the law, because this case is not about Apple's compliance with law. It's about Apple _and_ Ireland.
Ireland could have given Apple a sweetheart deal that was better than any other Irish business was offered, and that could be (dubiously) seen to be in compliance with the Irish tax code (see for example how much Google had to repay in the UK; far less than they should have). Apple could be paying Ireland all that Ireland asked for (which is, apparently, sweet Fanny Adams).
The point here is that the EU is punishing _Ireland_ for giving Apple that deal, and requiring Ireland to make Apple pay back taxes.
Why? Because what Ireland did in making this offer is deemed to be unfair competition in Europe -- among other states. In essence, the EU is meant to be a level playing field, and Ireland gave Apple a truly tiny tax bill in a way that distorts fairness within the EU.
So it's political but it is not crap; it's about Ireland meeting their obligations to the EU.
Ireland should claim the money, Apple should pay.
It's a tiny amount of money compared to what Apple makes, and if they are so concerned about fairness, they should take their money home to the USA. But oh no, they want a tax holiday. Which totally explains the deal they struck with Ireland; they are waiting for a tax holiday in the USA and don't want to pay any taxes elsewhere.
CAPTCHA: clubroom. (I swear there's a sarcastic AI at work)
It isn't about whether Apple followed the law or not, it's about the fact that Ireland had no right, by the terms of its international agreements with the EU and as part of its obligations as a member of the Common Market, to negotiate this special deals with Apple, Microsoft and the rest.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
It is illegal in the EU to provide state aid to entice companies to setup in one country over another. It has been this way since EU year dot, to create a level playing field. It is pretty much the point of the EU. If you don't like it, don't join the EU.
If Apple funnel all their EU profits through Ireland without paying tax in the country of sale, but only pay tax on sales made in Ireland (because Ireland conveniently ignore the rest), then that is state aid. Ireland know this. If Apple didn't know this they should sack their lawyers.
All the rest is PR and bluster.
Sounds like both Cook and Apple. They're on overpriced commodity hardware, and playing international games to avoid paying local taxes.
From the US IRS website:
1972: 16.67% of the federal revenue stream from individual income taxes, 25% from corporate taxes
Now: 44+% from income taxes, and 10+% from corporate taxes.
We pay more, so he doesn't have to. Let's go back to the 1972 tax structure, and see how you like *that*, Cook - you'd be in the 72% tax bracket....
mark
He claimed Ireland was being "picked on" and that he hoped to see the Irish government launch an appeal against the ruling.
I'm sure Ireland will stand up for their rights and not be forced to accept this kind of treatment. It's appalling. I sure would if someone would "pick on" me by ordering a foreign company to pay me 15 billion euros. I mean really, who would put up with that kind of treatment? What's wrong with Europeans, this isn't the dark ages, you can't treat people like that.
They are being forced to collect what should have been collected. And Apple is being forced to pay what they should have paid. The deal should never have been made, it violated the Common Market rules that Ireland has been party to for decades.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Apple is not being punished, they are being required to pay back taxes they avoided because of an agreement deemed non legal.
This is the EU saying to Ireland "Your law violates European law - fix it". This is correct. What is sketchy is the retrospective nature of the "and grab a few billion from Apple while you're fixing it"
I disagree that it is sketchy at all. Apple is going through all kinds of contortions to avoid paying any taxes. This is in clear violation of the spirit of the law and apparently the EU believes it is in violation of the letter of the law as well. Apple enjoys the benefits of public services from the taxes paid but isn't willing to pay their fair share. I have ZERO sympathy for Apple here. They shouldn't be entitled to any tax breaks not available to individuals or small enterprises. Furthermore if what they did was illegal then there is no retrospective anything. It means that Apple rightfully owes money it hasn't paid.
But until Apple provides concrete evidence
Guilty until proven innocent.
The EC found that the special agreement between Ireland and Apple was illegal - the guilty part is basically proven.
The point here is that the EU is punishing _Ireland_ for giving Apple that deal, and requiring Ireland to make Apple pay back taxes.
It requires some real mental contortions to paint grabbing 13 billion Euros from Apple as punishing Ireland. Ireland got what they wanted out of the deal already -- more tax revenue and jobs than they would have had otherwise. This is obviously an attempt to punish Apple.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
So, that's Ireland's fault, not Apple's.
And Apple, having had access to the relevant papers, would full-well know that special tax-agreements like these have been illegal inside the Common Market, and before that in the EEC, for decades.
They aren't innocent bystanders here, there's not really a basis for declaring themselves ignorant of facts.
That "other motivation" would be recent public outcry about a sense of fairness. Legality is one thing; and the other is timeliness: this is happening *now* because the EU cares *now*, and the EU cares now because of a global political dialogue about economics that keeps going from "look how many poor people" to "OMG THE 1% AND BUSINESSES!"
This kind of thing is interesting to me because it doesn't actually help anything, or at least it doesn't in my part of the world (the United States). Over here, business income (as profits) is legitimately like 10% of the total taxable income; and solutions to our social-economic problems don't demand taxing the rich or businesses more than current.
I've been proposing expanding the Social Security system from a retirement and disability benefit to a Universal Social Security as a form of Universal Basic Income. This is funded by a flat income tax (separate from the progressive income tax which provides the general fund), and comes out to a trillion dollars cheaper than modern welfare by way of assuming money moved to low-income households is a tax--that is to say: I targeted a monetary benefit for the bottom 30%-ish of households, and computed the amount of money that would flow toward them as the cost.
It's kind of hand-waving because it's comparing the current system to a new system, and the new system can be said to be both more-expensive (because some money is still moving from the top to the middle-class) and less-expensive (because *all* of that money goes back into the hands of consumers). Essentially, I created a system that's not a direct analogue to our current system, and causes an increase of spendable income at every income level; the "reduced tax burden" is $1 trillion, and the "money going to households above and beyond their actual income" is the rest. Trying to explain that in terms of costs is... a matter of presentation; the only correct comparison is a full description of each system, not a measure of how much each costs.
Anyway, the long and short of it is Apple's yearly profits (about $10 billion) amount to $58.48 per worker per YEAR, or $82.62 per household per year. The total judgment here is less than $10/month per household, in one big shot. Apple's total holdings, if dumped onto America all at once, leaving them bankrupt, could give everyone about $1,400. One time. Not useful, is it?
Taking 100% of all business profits would destabilize businesses (they'd fail all risk events--loss and opportunity, i.e. no cash on hand with which to cover a bad year, nor to grow) and provide about 10% of all income to be spent somehow. In contrast, my Universal Social Security system reduces business taxes slightly (that was unintentional; I just don't mess with it), reduces middle- and lower-class taxes dramatically, reduces payroll taxes, and puts a large amount of money into the hands of low- and no-income individuals and households. The funding source there is 17%, rather than 10%, of all income; and the practical displacement is around 7%. That puts, currently, $7,000 into the hands of the poorest of poor, per adult; for a 2-adult household it's like $14,000.
I get pushback on this type of plan for reasons including, but not limited to, that I don't tax the super-rich above 40%, that I don't increase business taxes, and that I don't increase wages (as if increasing wages is a thing; but that's a whole different economics argument). That's political: those are complaints about fairness and sentiment, rather than effectiveness. That's a particular hot topic now, which is why 15 years of Apple and Microsoft and Google reign went unchecked until, suddenly, "OMG TAXES, PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE!" If people hadn't turned "pay their fair share" and "the 1%" into a media sensation, this EU court case wouldn't exist; that's getting close to the definition of a kangaroo court, excepting that this case ostensibly has some actual validity.
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Headquartered in Ireland (to avoid tax laws)
Since more and more countries are closing those loopholes, I hear rumors they're building a giant ship to move their entire operation to the lawless libertarian paradise of international waters; manufacturing slaves on the lower decks, one percenters soaking up the sun on the upper decks.
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
If a man with five dollars gives a dollar to a starving man, he's being generous.
If a man with a billion dollars gives a dollar to a starving man, he's being a dick.
Point being, Apple's taxes should be proportional to what they make, rather than measured in "more than your company made" dollars.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
For Irexit.
Seeing as how Apple is involved that would make it:
iRexit
But seriously, this fight should be between the EU and Ireland. Apple did not write Irish tax laws.
This would be like a landlord who underpays taxes because he foolishly agreed to rent his property at too low a price and the IRS, instead of keeping the issue between the landlord and the IRS, goes after the tenant for rent the IRS thinks the tenant should have paid to the landlord in order for the landlord to meet the his tax obligation. Or the IRS going after Walmart customers who "didn't pay enough for their purchases" for Walmart to pay all their taxes.
Cook is spot-on. It's political crap from a collapsing union in decline, sinking under the weight of an overbearing collectivist bureaucracy, entitlements, and Newspeak PC political/ideological horseshit.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Apple paid about $7,000,000,000 in taxes to the US govt last year.
That isn't the real number. In 2011 the tax on their GAAP statements was $6.9B but the amount the actually sent to the IRS was less than half of that. Taxes are done on a cash basis, not accrual basis so you have to look deeper than their financial statements. Apple pays in some cases single digit percentages of their profits.
Is that a fair enough share for you?
Considering that the amount they paid as a percentage is FAR less than what many other companies pay and less than the percent I pay the answer is a clear NO. Furthermore they pay a lot of tax because they are absurdly profitable. Complaining about having such good fortune is absurd.
Do you try to minimize your tax burden?
Don't pretend that Apple's situation and my personal tax situation are remotely comparable. I pay a FAR higher tax rate than Apple does. Furthermore Apple gets to play all sorts of games playing jurisdictions off against each other which isn't something you or I get to do. It's not fair, it's not right, and it's not ethical. Evidently the EU agrees that it isn't legal either. Perhaps Apple shouldn't be entitled to hire people from public schools and universities or get protection from police or fire. After all they seem to think that we should have to pay for those things on their behalf so they can make even more billions than they already are. When is enough money enough?
Do you take any deductions? Are others not allowed to because they made more money?
Spare me. When Apple pays as much of their profits in taxes as I do on my income then you might have an argument. As it stands it's not even a discussion.
Are you one of those that think that Spirit of the Law only applies when you agree with the law, and doesn't apply when you don't.
I don't have a problem with anyone engaging in conscientious objection to what they think is an unfair law. However there are usually consequences for doing that. If Apple thinks the laws are unfair then they should be actively working to get them changed to something that is fair. As it stands they are just trying to weasel out of paying a reasonable portion of their Scrooge McDuck horde of cash. There is no ethical stance being taken here, just pure greed and opportunity.
How do you feel about Hillary skirting the applicable laws regarding Security of Secrets?
I think she should be subject to the same laws as everyone else. Similarly Apple appears to think because they are able to find some clever loopholes because of their power and size that the laws shouldn't apply to them. I disagree.
How about Immigration law?
What about it? If someone comes here illegally and gets caught they should expect to get deported. I don't have a problem with that. They rolled the dice when they came here. However since at some point almost all the people who are here in the US had many relatives who came here without the permission of any government or were brought here against their will I'm not bent out of shape about some people coming here for economic opportunity. Do you speak fluent Cherokee? Didn't think so. How do you like those cheap groceries? Are you insisting on paying for only legal labor (read white people) or are you a hypocrite? You should worry about illegal immigration if the people STOP wanting to come to your country. I think the immigration laws in my country are idiotic and hugely racist but they are what they are until sanity hopefully prevails one day.
If you cheat on your taxes, then yeah you'd be subject to fines for past tax evasion. But if you followed the letter of the tax law at the time, and some time later the government decided the law was wrong and changed it, then no you wouldn't be subject to retroactive fines.
You're missing the point. Ireland doesn't WANT the taxes. Ireland is perfectly happy with what they have. Ireland doesn't think Apple owes them anything beyond what they've already paid.
Tim Cook is completely right. This is nothing more than a spiteful political attack, coming from the "un-cool tech nerds are destroying culture" narrative in general, and bias against US tech companies in the EU in general. And don't think it will stop at Apple. France has been on the warpath against Google for a few years now. Germany has its sights set on Facebook. The UK slammed Amazon a few years back.
Imagine all the people...
You're missing the point. Of course Ireland doesn't want to screw up it's relationship with Apple. Yes Apple and Ireland are happy with the relationship, much the way the way a crook and a fence are happy with their relationship. Ireland is selling tax obligations at a steep discount to Apple for "other valuable considerations" the EU a part owner of those obligations has been sliced out of the deal and is now crying foul.
Apple paid about $7,000,000,000 in taxes to the US govt last year.
Is that a fair enough share for you?
Lets see...
So no, they have not remotely paid their fare share and to top it off they outsource a good chunk of their production. Face it, if Apple "paid their fair share" they wouldn't exist, they piss away too much money on social causes aimed at crushing competition. The fact one of those causes finally came back to bite them in the ass is hysterical, if not for the fact it still fucks over the smaller corporations who aren't filled with incompetent evil globalists.
Old whathisname was running it... What was his name? Steve something...
Anyway, they were such a cool company then. They came out with life-changing products, they elevated design aesthetics for the industry as a whole, and they didn't get into all of the political crap that old Tim Cook's version of the company does.
Between spending company cash and time trying to promote his political beliefs, putting out lackluster products that stagnate in the market, and now getting caught flipping the bird to Europe over getting caught avoiding tax laws, Apple's not looking too good these days.
A couple more years like this and Apple might even take the bold step of letting 3rd party manufacturers build their products, and then slapping an Apple logo on it (Remember those awesome Mac knockoff's before Jobs stepped back in?)
Tim should step down... He doesn't have the skills nor the demeanor to run this company.
Whoops! Forgot his latest brilliant idea: Remove the headphone jack and make consumers replace all of their perfectly good working equipment again.
Wasn't Apple into recycling heavily also? Wonder how much plastic and metal will end up in the landfills due to this latest genius move...
A Tax Expert Takes Tim Cook's EU Letter Apart Point By Point
Belief is the currency of delusion.
Really not sure how you got upvoted for brownnosing Tim Crook.
Your analogy is completely wrong as well. This would be more like a tenant who has made a special 'deal' with his landlord to pay a double figure rent while everyone around him in the same building is paying thee digit rents.
Then the Housing committee drops by and declares the arrangement illegal.
Nothing wrong with that, its called obeying the legal system.
The last line about political crap and collectivist bureaucracy is just hilarious ^^
Repeat after me: We are all individuals
- the law is theft and the entire system is built around that theft.
Oh fuck off with that stupid argument. Tax is not theft and never was. The argument doesn't stand up to the most cursory scrutiny. The very fact that you have roads and an education and healthcare and police protection and the internet and first responders and clean water and postal service and safe drugs and military protection and plenty more is because of taxes. Without a civil society and people paying taxes to fund things we all benefit from none of that stuff exists. The fact that you can post your witless argument is because of those taxes you are so bent out of shape over.
AFAIC Apple shouldn't pay a cent and instead hire a private army to go after every single politician involved in this racketeering and I mean to go with full force of every shady tool available to people when that sort of money is involved, up to and including blackmail, kidnapping, extermination and regime change.
Either you are a troll or a raving lunatic with no concept of reality. I hope it's the former but I'm pretty sure it's the later.