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Apple CEO Tim Cook on EU Apple Tax Case: 'Total Political Crap' (arstechnica.com)
Earlier this week, Apple was ordered to pay a record sum of 13 billion euros plus interest after the EU said Ireland illegally slashed the iPhone make's tax bill. At the time, Tim Cook found the accusations "baseless." In a new interview, he had more things to say:A war of words has erupted between Europe's competition chief and Apple CEO Tim Cook after Ireland was ordered to reclaim $14.5 billion in back taxes from the company. Cook, in an interview with the Irish Independent, labelled Brussels' competition chief Margrethe Vestager's decision as "total political crap." He claimed Ireland was being "picked on" and that he hoped to see the Irish government launch an appeal against the ruling. Vestager refuted that claim when quizzed by reporters on Thursday. "This is a decision based on the facts of the case. The figures that we used in our decision are the figures that we got from Apple themselves," she said. "There are very, very few figures in the public domain. More transparency would be a good thing, for example, a country by country reporting. If it was up to me, the non-confidential version of the decision would have been published yesterday, because that is another way of enabling everyone to see what we have decided and on what basis we have made this decision. Right now the ball is in the hands of Apple and Ireland."
It's "political crap" because it's something you don't agree with. Law of the land, buddy.
I'm sure there's some other motivation in hitting one of the big fish for this tax haven nonsense... But until Apple provides concrete evidence that they followed every law (read: tax filings and supporting documentation), then anything from Mr. Cook is just an attempt to save face.
Wait, I thought that liberals like Cook were all for gouging those eeebil corporations and making them pay their fair share? If he was being consistent, he'd be happy to pay and then ask, "thank you sir, may I have another?"
"There are very, very few figures in the public domain"
What figures is it that she's referring to? Apple is publicly traded, are there numbers about revenue that are being hidden from her? Maybe, and that would be a whole other set of crimes to tack onto tax evasion.
"More transparency would be a good thing, for example, a country by country reporting"
Well let's start with Belgium....surely she has access to those numbers?
"If it was up to me, the non-confidential version of the decision would have been published yesterday, because that is another way of enabling everyone to see what we have decided and on what basis we have made this decision"
So if it's not up to her, who is it up to?
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
I don't understand. I just thought we did business in various countries around the world, and didn't pay taxes. People,people are supposed to pay all the taxes.
: P
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
Baseless?
Translation: Waaaahhhh!
That is all.
Embalming Fluid still the only known cure for greed.
According to BBC, Tim Cook is lying about how much tax Apple has paid:
"He claimed that Apple paid tax at a rate of 26% around the world, that isn't the whole story.
Apple works out its tax rate as if it had paid taxes due in the US at a rate of 35%.
But the actual payment of those taxes is deferred - till when, nobody knows.
Maybe until US taxes come down or some special tax amnesty is agreed to repatriate hundreds of billions that Apple and others keep off US shores in the tax equivalent of outer space.
In fact, the scramble to avoid paying tax at 35% is the reason the whole structure exists in the first place."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-...
So you're saying the EC should sit by and let Ireland violate the terms of its membership in the Common Market? Is that your view, that Ireland is above the very laws it is party to?
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
It is illegal in the EU to provide state aid to entice companies to setup in one country over another. It has been this way since EU year dot, to create a level playing field. It is pretty much the point of the EU. If you don't like it, don't join the EU.
If Apple funnel all their EU profits through Ireland without paying tax in the country of sale, but only pay tax on sales made in Ireland (because Ireland conveniently ignore the rest), then that is state aid. Ireland know this. If Apple didn't know this they should sack their lawyers.
All the rest is PR and bluster.
It's a fact: the USA is dying.
It doesn't protect its own people, while the EU actively protects. Don't let it come as a suprise: protecting companies which invest in lowering any costs doesn't create a stable future.
Sounds like both Cook and Apple. They're on overpriced commodity hardware, and playing international games to avoid paying local taxes.
From the US IRS website:
1972: 16.67% of the federal revenue stream from individual income taxes, 25% from corporate taxes
Now: 44+% from income taxes, and 10+% from corporate taxes.
We pay more, so he doesn't have to. Let's go back to the 1972 tax structure, and see how you like *that*, Cook - you'd be in the 72% tax bracket....
mark
This goes both ways. The EU also needs to show the numbers they used to decide this, which they haven't yet by their own admission:
"If it was up to me, the non-confidential version of the decision would have been published yesterday, because that is another way of enabling everyone to see what we have decided and on what basis we have made this decision"
What's stopping them from doing this?
If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
He claimed Ireland was being "picked on" and that he hoped to see the Irish government launch an appeal against the ruling.
I'm sure Ireland will stand up for their rights and not be forced to accept this kind of treatment. It's appalling. I sure would if someone would "pick on" me by ordering a foreign company to pay me 15 billion euros. I mean really, who would put up with that kind of treatment? What's wrong with Europeans, this isn't the dark ages, you can't treat people like that.
... but we're going to punish Apple.
Hey, it's just like anti-gun rhetoric. Bad guy does something bad with a gun, let's punish everyone except the bad guy.
There are two possible translations, based on the context.
1. Are the allegations based on a) verifiable facts or on b) unconfirmed or debunked rumors?
If answer=a, then translation="I'm so mad we got caught!"
If answer=b, then translation="This is a political attack."
I did try to minimize my tax burden. However, what I did not do was make an illegal bargain with the IRS to reduce the amount of tax that I pay.
It's not about the amount, it's about an agreement between Apple and the Irish government that violated the international treaties between the Republic of Ireland and other EU countries.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
This is the EU saying to Ireland "Your law violates European law - fix it". This is correct. What is sketchy is the retrospective nature of the "and grab a few billion from Apple while you're fixing it"
I disagree that it is sketchy at all. Apple is going through all kinds of contortions to avoid paying any taxes. This is in clear violation of the spirit of the law and apparently the EU believes it is in violation of the letter of the law as well. Apple enjoys the benefits of public services from the taxes paid but isn't willing to pay their fair share. I have ZERO sympathy for Apple here. They shouldn't be entitled to any tax breaks not available to individuals or small enterprises. Furthermore if what they did was illegal then there is no retrospective anything. It means that Apple rightfully owes money it hasn't paid.
So, that's Ireland's fault, not Apple's.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Guilty until proven innocent.
Is there any question that Apple has been avoiding taxes? Apple admits that fact freely and seems rather proud of it in fact. The only question is whether their activities were actually legal or not but their guilt in avoiding taxes is not in question. Now the EU seems to have determined that they were illegal under the law as well. Apple got special treatment they weren't entitled to and they owe a lot of money they should have paid earlier. Sounds fair to me.
Yes. They should just continue allowing our better equals to pay %1 tax or less while the rest pay 15x the tax.
I thought we didn't have feudalism anymore.
Tim, you were paying 500ths of 1 percent, you knew EU/EEC rules didn't allow EU/EEC countries to make those kind of deals. If you didn't know that then you should fire your lawyers as they did not do due diligence. So quit crying and pay your fair share.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
So, that's Ireland's fault, not Apple's.
And Apple, having had access to the relevant papers, would full-well know that special tax-agreements like these have been illegal inside the Common Market, and before that in the EEC, for decades.
They aren't innocent bystanders here, there's not really a basis for declaring themselves ignorant of facts.
Let me suggest that you find a corrupt IRS agent, and use this person to reduce your taxes below what is legally required, then, when audited, blame the IRS agent. See how far that gets you.
You don't even need a corrupt IRS agent. Just get an accountant to file an incorrect tax return on your behalf and see if you have to pay the correct tax when the issue is discovered.
Apple knew (or should have known) the details of the EU agreements. Just like the USA, where ignorance of the law is no defence.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Headquartered in Ireland (to avoid tax laws)
Since more and more countries are closing those loopholes, I hear rumors they're building a giant ship to move their entire operation to the lawless libertarian paradise of international waters; manufacturing slaves on the lower decks, one percenters soaking up the sun on the upper decks.
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
a multi-national corporation has been cheating the system for decades, they should pay taxes on all income earned in the nation they do business with, by claiming their base of operations is in such&such a nation just because it is a tax haven should be illegal, change the law so they have to pay taxes on ALL income earned in the nation they made that income in and then they can not cheat the system by playing this game of multi-national tax haven base of operations, and then governments wont lean so heavily on working class's income tax so much
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
From what I've read, this is a net wash for Apple, because they get to reduce their US taxes by the amount they pay in foreign taxes. ... but foreign taxes would be paid out of foreign money ... whereas the US tax refund would be in US money.
Therefore, Apple would get $14B or so re-patriated, without having to pay US taxes for doing so.
Currently, Apple has a huge cash reserve, but it's not in US money ... so they take loans against it, rather than repatriate it (and pay 35% on it, minus the taxes that have already been paid on it)
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Because it's a big number it's fair? I was under the impression that to assess that at least one other number was needed.
Yes, yes, no. We're not talking about a plumber getting a deduction for his van, a contractor working out of town claiming his hotel, or an engineering firm building a new R&D lab.
We're talking ridiculously convoluted transactions that have nothing to do with reality and exist solely for scamming the public.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
If a man with five dollars gives a dollar to a starving man, he's being generous.
If a man with a billion dollars gives a dollar to a starving man, he's being a dick.
Point being, Apple's taxes should be proportional to what they make, rather than measured in "more than your company made" dollars.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
For Irexit.
Seeing as how Apple is involved that would make it:
iRexit
But seriously, this fight should be between the EU and Ireland. Apple did not write Irish tax laws.
This would be like a landlord who underpays taxes because he foolishly agreed to rent his property at too low a price and the IRS, instead of keeping the issue between the landlord and the IRS, goes after the tenant for rent the IRS thinks the tenant should have paid to the landlord in order for the landlord to meet the his tax obligation. Or the IRS going after Walmart customers who "didn't pay enough for their purchases" for Walmart to pay all their taxes.
Cook is spot-on. It's political crap from a collapsing union in decline, sinking under the weight of an overbearing collectivist bureaucracy, entitlements, and Newspeak PC political/ideological horseshit.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Apple paid about $7,000,000,000 in taxes to the US govt last year.
That isn't the real number. In 2011 the tax on their GAAP statements was $6.9B but the amount the actually sent to the IRS was less than half of that. Taxes are done on a cash basis, not accrual basis so you have to look deeper than their financial statements. Apple pays in some cases single digit percentages of their profits.
Is that a fair enough share for you?
Considering that the amount they paid as a percentage is FAR less than what many other companies pay and less than the percent I pay the answer is a clear NO. Furthermore they pay a lot of tax because they are absurdly profitable. Complaining about having such good fortune is absurd.
Do you try to minimize your tax burden?
Don't pretend that Apple's situation and my personal tax situation are remotely comparable. I pay a FAR higher tax rate than Apple does. Furthermore Apple gets to play all sorts of games playing jurisdictions off against each other which isn't something you or I get to do. It's not fair, it's not right, and it's not ethical. Evidently the EU agrees that it isn't legal either. Perhaps Apple shouldn't be entitled to hire people from public schools and universities or get protection from police or fire. After all they seem to think that we should have to pay for those things on their behalf so they can make even more billions than they already are. When is enough money enough?
Do you take any deductions? Are others not allowed to because they made more money?
Spare me. When Apple pays as much of their profits in taxes as I do on my income then you might have an argument. As it stands it's not even a discussion.
If you mean the constitutional republic, you're well behind the curve. Long dead. Arguable that it was stillborn.
However, if you mean the nation, then, no. The oligarchy is running just fine. And your implication that it is in place to benefit the people in general, and that defines its life or death is adorable, truly.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Are you one of those that think that Spirit of the Law only applies when you agree with the law, and doesn't apply when you don't.
I don't have a problem with anyone engaging in conscientious objection to what they think is an unfair law. However there are usually consequences for doing that. If Apple thinks the laws are unfair then they should be actively working to get them changed to something that is fair. As it stands they are just trying to weasel out of paying a reasonable portion of their Scrooge McDuck horde of cash. There is no ethical stance being taken here, just pure greed and opportunity.
How do you feel about Hillary skirting the applicable laws regarding Security of Secrets?
I think she should be subject to the same laws as everyone else. Similarly Apple appears to think because they are able to find some clever loopholes because of their power and size that the laws shouldn't apply to them. I disagree.
How about Immigration law?
What about it? If someone comes here illegally and gets caught they should expect to get deported. I don't have a problem with that. They rolled the dice when they came here. However since at some point almost all the people who are here in the US had many relatives who came here without the permission of any government or were brought here against their will I'm not bent out of shape about some people coming here for economic opportunity. Do you speak fluent Cherokee? Didn't think so. How do you like those cheap groceries? Are you insisting on paying for only legal labor (read white people) or are you a hypocrite? You should worry about illegal immigration if the people STOP wanting to come to your country. I think the immigration laws in my country are idiotic and hugely racist but they are what they are until sanity hopefully prevails one day.
Not true unless Netcraft confirms it!
What if Tim Cook offered to buy Ireland for â1 in echange for moving global HQ to Dublin? :)
If you cheat on your taxes, then yeah you'd be subject to fines for past tax evasion. But if you followed the letter of the tax law at the time, and some time later the government decided the law was wrong and changed it, then no you wouldn't be subject to retroactive fines.
As a EU citizen, I will no longer deal with Apple and look for socially responsible companies instead.
Your fallacy is trying to apply the laws between person and person (or person and state) to a situation of corporation and state.
This is comparing Apple (*scnr*) to Oranges.
For example traffic laws for road vehicles are fundamentally different than those for railway vehicles and of course also different to those for ships. This is not unfair, this is completely normal.
They should tack on an execution sentence of all Apple execs while they're at it, to discourage others from trying to set up corrupt deals.
Tim Cook full of shit, greedy bastard wants legal protections but doesn't want to pay the taxes that are part of being a member of society...
Apple paid about $7,000,000,000 in taxes to the US govt last year.
Is that a fair enough share for you?
Lets see...
So no, they have not remotely paid their fare share and to top it off they outsource a good chunk of their production. Face it, if Apple "paid their fair share" they wouldn't exist, they piss away too much money on social causes aimed at crushing competition. The fact one of those causes finally came back to bite them in the ass is hysterical, if not for the fact it still fucks over the smaller corporations who aren't filled with incompetent evil globalists.
Why does Ireland get to pass laws then? I mean, if they're not in charge and just an agent of the EU ( much like your rogue IRS agent analogy), why does the EU allow them to make law at all? Why not take that privilege away entirely?
This would be like ...
No, it wouldn't. You appear to be upset about your own misinterpretation of the situation.
Cheer up. It's all about something else, and as a result it's not political crap. Unusual for the EU, sure, but not this time.
But seriously, this fight should be between the EU and Ireland
It was. The EU determined Ireland got into an illegal tax deal, and are just asking Ireland to collect the correct taxes they should have been owed in the first place.
As for your analogy, the EU isn't collecting this tax from Ireland, this is purely Ireland's tax. It would be more like the government stepping in after someone misclassified their rental as government housing and collecting a sub par rate from someone else in exchange for a sweet backroom deal. The resolution is to force the correct performance of contractual obligations from both sides, i.e. tell the tenant who knowingly underpaid that they owe the correct rate.
There isn't even a punishment here. In the housing scenario one or both parties would be facing a huge fine too.
Old whathisname was running it... What was his name? Steve something...
Anyway, they were such a cool company then. They came out with life-changing products, they elevated design aesthetics for the industry as a whole, and they didn't get into all of the political crap that old Tim Cook's version of the company does.
Between spending company cash and time trying to promote his political beliefs, putting out lackluster products that stagnate in the market, and now getting caught flipping the bird to Europe over getting caught avoiding tax laws, Apple's not looking too good these days.
A couple more years like this and Apple might even take the bold step of letting 3rd party manufacturers build their products, and then slapping an Apple logo on it (Remember those awesome Mac knockoff's before Jobs stepped back in?)
Tim should step down... He doesn't have the skills nor the demeanor to run this company.
Whoops! Forgot his latest brilliant idea: Remove the headphone jack and make consumers replace all of their perfectly good working equipment again.
Wasn't Apple into recycling heavily also? Wonder how much plastic and metal will end up in the landfills due to this latest genius move...
A Tax Expert Takes Tim Cook's EU Letter Apart Point By Point
Belief is the currency of delusion.
Yep, it's all about state aid. Now none of my easily-outraged lefty FBriends knew this was a breach of state aid and it's possible neither Ireland nor Apple knew this might be. But they should have known.
That it's been going on for over a decade is neither here nor there. Apple and Ireland might have hoped they'd never get called on it, but that doesn't make it more ethical or legal.
Same EU law was at the centre of the British steel row four months ago.
Lastly, what does this say about Tim Cook? I strongly suspected their refusal to hack was one of the few times market forces lined up with privacy rights. It's possible he's a pro-privacy libertarian, or simply doing his job & hoping Apple fanbois will get Apple off the hook.
I doubt Mr. Cook would want to live in a rainy climate.
When a company spends tens of millions on lobbyists, and when the lobbyists sometimes get to write part of the laws-to-be concerning their industry, and when the lobbyists can negotiate the kind of sweetheart deal for terms that only a billion-dollar-multinational could ever get, it's kind of disingenuous to simply dismiss it all as "they did not write the law". You know?
I am not a sig.
They didn't cheat on taxes, you unbelievable nitwit. Ireland is a sovereign country and they decided what Apple paid. As Ireland itself has said, if Apple owes tax, it is not owed to Ireland.
A better analogy would be the US retroactively eliminating deductions (standard or itemized) retroactively and asking you for back taxes and interest. Even more accurately, it's like the US ruling your state's deduction was illegal and claiming you owed your state back taxes and interest, even though your state agrees with you. But I guess that seems totally fair and happens all the time, right?
Nincompoop.
They made this deal with Ireland to book the revenue there at a preferential rate. However, part of why the EU determined that they had to pay up is because they didn't really have the office they claimed to have in Ireland. It was a corporation-on-paper-that-didn't-really-exist. I don't really have much patience with that.
You shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it, too. Some people seriously believe that there should be no corporate tax at all, but if you want corporations to have the rights of persons, then they must also have the responsibilities of persons (e.g. paying taxes).
Apple's CEO is stuck in a regrettable place, though. His responsibility is to lead the company to be as valuable to the shareholders as is legally possible, which in part means minimizing liabilities, including taxes. I have little doubt that they thought this structure was legal.
A landlord is free to agree with a tenant about rent, in general, even if one or both is stupid and they come up with a bad rent amount. It's generally legal in US law to make a bad deal that costs you money.
However, this is a legal issue, not a contractual one. If there's a rent below which the landlord cannot legally go, then any agreement to rent for less is illegal and hence void.
Suppose that your uncle wants to give you money beyond the tax-free gift limit, and sells you a $100K car for $1K, so you pay taxes as if it were a $1K car. The appropriate governments might figure that the car is worth more and charge more taxes. It happens.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
The US Congress has the Constitutional power to issue letters of marque and reprisal (basically, to commission privateers to prey on enemy shipping). However, sometime around 1850, the US government agreed by treaty to not do that any more. Yet, Congress still passes laws on other matters.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
What if countries modified their patent and copyright laws so that if a holder moves their tax base out of a country, they forfeit their holder rights in that country?
This would be like a landlord who underpays taxes because he foolishly agreed to rent his property at too low a price and the IRS, instead of keeping the issue between the landlord and the IRS, goes after the tenant for rent ...
No. The analogy would be the landlord who tells his tenant he doesn't have to pay the water bill because he getting a special deal, then the local council comes in and tells the landlord he has no right to give special deals, so then instructs the tenant to backpay his water bill.
Cook is spot-on. It's political crap from a collapsing union in decline, sinking under the weight of an overbearing collectivist bureaucracy, entitlements, and Newspeak PC political/ideological horseshit.
Oh ok then, if that makes you feel better...
Do you try to minimize your tax burden? Do you take any deductions? Are others not allowed to because they made more money?
I pay about 30% of my gross income to tax, plus 10% of everything I spend.
I expect people poorer than me to pay a slightly lower percentage, and people richer than me to pay slightly higher. I think that is a fair contribution to maintain a functional society.
Percentage wise, the rich and the poor are both paying lower percentages than me, how is that fair in your opinion?
The country collecting taxes?
WTF kind of question is that?
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Brussels doesn't seem to be getting the message. We are all sick and tired of their politics. After Brexit, one might have hoped they would back off... but bureaucrats are not generally known for reducing their interference in other people's business.
Might makes right irrelevant.
Really not sure how you got upvoted for brownnosing Tim Crook.
Your analogy is completely wrong as well. This would be more like a tenant who has made a special 'deal' with his landlord to pay a double figure rent while everyone around him in the same building is paying thee digit rents.
Then the Housing committee drops by and declares the arrangement illegal.
Nothing wrong with that, its called obeying the legal system.
The last line about political crap and collectivist bureaucracy is just hilarious ^^
Repeat after me: We are all individuals
- the law is theft and the entire system is built around that theft.
Oh fuck off with that stupid argument. Tax is not theft and never was. The argument doesn't stand up to the most cursory scrutiny. The very fact that you have roads and an education and healthcare and police protection and the internet and first responders and clean water and postal service and safe drugs and military protection and plenty more is because of taxes. Without a civil society and people paying taxes to fund things we all benefit from none of that stuff exists. The fact that you can post your witless argument is because of those taxes you are so bent out of shape over.
AFAIC Apple shouldn't pay a cent and instead hire a private army to go after every single politician involved in this racketeering and I mean to go with full force of every shady tool available to people when that sort of money is involved, up to and including blackmail, kidnapping, extermination and regime change.
Either you are a troll or a raving lunatic with no concept of reality. I hope it's the former but I'm pretty sure it's the later.
Well, John Galt sells power he generates, you don't like the price don't buy it from him. I am sure others would be happy to sell you the power they generate at lower prices.
Ahh, I get it now. You're one of those credulous idiots who read "The Fountainhead" and thinks that it has some actual relevance to reality. Here's a clue, Ayn Rand had NO idea how real economics and politics and civil society functioned. She was a functioning hypocrite and her books are fodder for clueless ideologues who either don't know how the real world works or con men who have found they can convince credulous fools that there is sense in her writings so that they may gain power over them.
People who actually follow the "teachings" of Ayn Rand are as idiotic as those who follow the "teachings" of Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard or any number of other con men. The are credulous sheep who lack the ability to reason independently or logically.
How dare these government types not listen to their overlords, their unelected Kings? Whom do these peasants think they are?
For Irexit.
Seeing as how Apple is involved that would make it:
iRexit
But seriously, this fight should be between the EU and Ireland. Apple did not write Irish tax laws.
Ireland will never leave the EU, especially after witnessing what has happened to the UK... and nothing has even started here yet.
But that's besides the point, Ireland is dependent on EU money to survive. Companies like Apple would flee Ireland exactly 3.2 seconds after they realised how much they'd have to change their tax structure to accommodate the loss of EU income.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Maybe now their way over valued stock will come back in line with reality? Talk about a bubble! It's a really big bubble.
Total due would be 23b on 53b taxable. So that's 16b that went to the pet NPOs of the Apple execs as a bonus.
Yes, if they get zero deductions. Do you take deductions? Mortgage, kids, flat deduction, etc, etc, etc. And businesses have way more deductions than individuals.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure