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Long TSA Delays Force Airports To Hire Private Security Contractors (popsci.com)
An anonymous Slashdot reader writes:
TSA checkpoints caused 6,800 American Airlines passengers to miss their flights in just one week this spring, and the problem isn't improving. "Two years ago the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) offered $15,000 to anybody -- literally anybody -- who could come up with an idea to speed up airport security..." writes Popular Science. "They wouldn't say who won or for which idea, but since we're here two years later with longer wait times than ever, it's fair to say it hasn't lived up to the groundbreaking ideals of that call to action... Now in summer 2016, the TSA recommends arriving three hours early instead of a mere two."
So this spring the Seattle-Tacoma airport replaced many of the TSA staff with private screeners, although "Private security operates under strict direction from the TSA, and even those airports that heavily utilize private contractors still have a lot of TSA personnel in the back rooms..." according to the article. "The ability to do exactly what the TSA does, only faster and cheaper, seems to be the major draw." Now 22 U.S. airports are using private screeners, although the Seattle and San Francisco airports are the only ones with significant traffic.
The article also cites a Homeland Security report which discovered that investigators were able to smuggle a test bomb past security checkpoints in 67 out of 70 tests.
So this spring the Seattle-Tacoma airport replaced many of the TSA staff with private screeners, although "Private security operates under strict direction from the TSA, and even those airports that heavily utilize private contractors still have a lot of TSA personnel in the back rooms..." according to the article. "The ability to do exactly what the TSA does, only faster and cheaper, seems to be the major draw." Now 22 U.S. airports are using private screeners, although the Seattle and San Francisco airports are the only ones with significant traffic.
The article also cites a Homeland Security report which discovered that investigators were able to smuggle a test bomb past security checkpoints in 67 out of 70 tests.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/05/19/airports-are-fed-up-with-tsa-heres-why-it-will-be-hard-to-break-up-with-them.html
Especially to the fact that these private companies are hired by the TSA
Obviously since something is easy and sensible it will never be done but for 15K I'll take a whack at it.
To speed up the lines, get rid of the TSA.
It's that simple.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Now in summer 2016, the TSA recommends arriving three hours early instead of a mere two.
Drive to your destination -- even if it's overseas.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
They're hiring actors for security theater.
The only thing the private sector can do more efficiently here is maintain good contacts with agents and friendly relations with the acting unions.
private TSA
Because then they don't have power over us and they can't whine that they need all sorts of extra funding. They also refuse to return to only using the magnetometer instead of the nudie scanners or they insist on groping everybody's privates. And yet they are as effective as Walmart door-greeters when it comes to actual security. So why don't we just hire Walmart door greeters with the magnetometer to use, and be done with it?
Abolish the money drain security theater that is the TSA and let the airports go back to using security methods that were shown to be more effective. Keep DHS as merely a top-level organization and make use of air marshals as has been the standard. Use best practices that have been shown to work, and abandon the costly, ineffective, dangerous (unregulated x-ray), and intrusive methods that do not improve safety.
Yes how entitled of us to expect that the TSA improve their procedures as time goes on, instead it gets even more inefficient! Last I checked us entitled slashdot users can't drive to Hawaii or any other place outside the continental US. But hey, thanks for your valuable input TSA agent.
The ability to do exactly what the TSA does, only faster and cheaper, seems to be the major draw.
I'm sure it's easy to hire people to harass travelers and waste their time for less than the government pays.
The logical answer is that the TSA has done very little to improve security. It's an "improvement" over the previous maligned standards when airports just hired incompetent people to run metal detectors, and every airport had different levels of security. Where we are now, every airport has the same level of minimum standards, due to still having TSA personal managing them.
Yet, the problem is that people are choosing to fly. Sure, it might be faster, but only if you are flying somewhere that you can't drive to in 6 hours. For most of us that means flying is no longer reasonable in-state. Amtrak is faster. In fact you can not fly any faster than you can take the train for any in-state destinations, pretty much everywhere except Texas and California, or Canada for that matter (Canada has no rail service outside of the Toronto-Montreal corridor, it is cheaper and faster to go to Seattle and take the Empire Builder to Chicago and then switch trains than it is to The Canadian from Vancouver to Toronto directly.)
Here's how I'd solve it. Bear with me...
Remove ALL TSA, Metal detectors, x-ray machines, drug/bomb sniffing machines and dogs, and instead push this towards Luggage handling. Allow no carry-on, everyone gets an airline-provided spandex/cotton catsuit with the logo of the airline and flight number that they must be wearing when they come to the gate or they will be turned away. Once onboard they may use the onboard entertainment services only. All cell phones and laptops are stored in checked luggage, and anything emitting radiowaves is not permitted.
Luggage handling:
- Suitcase: Charge $50, if it emits radio waves, $150
- Smaller personal items (normally carry-on) $25, emits radio waves $150
- Anything that triggers a search alarm on the x-ray conveyor belt will be tagged with a search notice, and the passenger will be required to use the onboard entertainment to watch the luggage be searched. If they refuse or ignore it, then the luggage will be searched without their consent and charged an additional $50 if anything is held. If they watch it, they can confirm what objects are removed and what to do with them (eg hold (will be left at the airport until picked up,) destroy, mail (will be mailed back to the owner.)
The point of all this is to get people to not take anything with them to their destination, and to "mail back" anything they buy at their destination. Wearing the airline-provided suits is the best, although most embarrassing way to speed up the inspection because that makes it so people can only hide things up their ass, and are taking a risk to do so. No need for a TSA grope.
Here's a better idea: go fuck yourself.
The TSA hasn't caught any terrorists yet. It's expensive, intrusive, and useless. Not only that, since a perp could just wander into the midst of several thousand people and blow them up while the TSA is making them stand in serpentine lines waiting for the bullshit obedience ritual, the TSA is only increasing the danger to the traveling public.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Your idea is simple but is too costly to implement. We are talking about billions of dollars (was it $4b/year just for screening?) of "cost" (i.e. not ending up in the right pockets).
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
Well, airport security is now something I consider before flying.
And I once chose a 24h bus trip over a 2h flight and airport security was one of the reason I made this choice. Price was similar.
Increase the number of checkpoints and screeners?
Do I win?
wasn't that one of the reasons given for forming the TSA in the first place? Better efficiency? The TSA was going to replace those inefficient, untrained, low paid knuckleheads with....inefficient, untrained HIGH paid government knuckleheads. All the while, they would create another bureaucratic tar pit with a multi-billion dollar annual budget.
Folks - this is why our infrastructure is falling apart and our schools are going to shit. It is not because there is not enough money. It is because of how the money gets spent. There is zero accountability. The TSA is yet another perfect example of this. It is a failed experiment. Were this a private company it would be abandoned, with a follow up study and lessons learned. In government they just throw more (of our) money at it.
This is why whenever the government wants to launch yet another massive program (be it Obamacare or what have you) I am flatly against it. Why? Because they have shown time and time again that they are incapable of managing anything of scale without it turning into a bottomless pit.
Clearly the long wait times are the passengers fault. If people would quit waiting around to get on the 3 out of 70 planes that don't have bombs on them, everything would go much faster.
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
No need to scare them away. After 9/11 nobody expects a hijacking to be a flight to Havana and an inconvenient delay. Passengers will kill the next terrorists before they can get into the cockpit or light their underpants on fire.
Have gnu, will travel.
I know a guy who couldn't hold a job even at Target, Wendy's, corner gas station... Now he works for the TSA.
He's not making fat cash, but this is a guy who wasn't even capable of working at Target as a shelf stocker and now he's working at security checkpoints. If I thought the TSA actually did anything I'd be horrified.
And they're union (I don't think union is automatically bad, but government and union is the worst possible combo), so performance is a joke and he can't get fired short of doing something blatantly illegal (and maybe not even then). Luckily he's just dumb, not crooked, but there are plenty of low class criminals working for TSA. Sometimes they even get caught.
I can tell you We just need all airplane travelers to strip down naked and spread checks. Is is extremely difficult to conduct a proper non-naked 'pat down'. My job required me to do it. An effective pat down that would detect a razor blade would take about 20 minutes. If you really want security, you need naked travelers. Of coarse this will never happen because it would mean evil white men would see women and children naked. You will get more jail time and more hatred directed at you for seeing a naked female baby than you will for trying to blow up a plane. We could have separate planes for women, men and children, but I don't think the business interests would not consider this viable. Since we can not really ensure the safety of the plane, we need to say fuck it. Let's arm all passengers. That way the 'terrorists' know that there is no way to keep a plane 'hostage'. Terrorist should know that if you blow up their plane the USA will track down your parents, your children, and anyone you have ever loved and kill them in a long slow painful process that goes on for decades. Make terrorism disadvantageous to the terrorist. Don't punish everyone who is not a terrorist.
-This post has been sponsored by Coke-Cola(tm). If you disagree with it, you should stop drinking coke and drink a more politically correct beverage that agrees with your more sensible ingrained opinions ( ugh I meant correct view of the world)
The TSA hasn't caught any terrorists yet. It's expensive, intrusive, and useless.
The purpose of the screenings is not to "catch terrorists" but to deter the terrorists from even trying. I am not say that the TSA is effective, I am just saying that the lack of arrested terrorists isn't proof that they aren't.
Exactly. This and the lock on cockpit door is all that was needed.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
To speed up the lines, get rid of the TSA.
Even if the TSA is practically useless, at least it scares away most people having bad intentions, including terrorists.
This is easily tested. Pick one major airport and remove TSA screening from it. Fall back to standard security such as metal detectors and explosive particle detectors as people walk through. Let people bring toothpaste and bottled water. Finally, count the number of successful terrorist bombings/hijackings that happen through that airport over the next year. If it's zero, expand the experiment.
Frankly the TSA could continue to draw their paychecks by simply charging a "TSA-free" surcharge at the airports they're not at.
I'm a simple guy, but it's nerve-wracking passing through US airports simply because I realize that all it takes is someone to misunderstand a gesture, or to mis-hear something I say that rhymes with something naughty ("no, officer, I said 'get your Mom', not 'set your bomb'!") and I'll end up missing my flight, plus get stuck on some "person of interest" list for life. The most negative thing I have any interest in doing while in a US airport is leave the country, but still I'm nervous.
"Oh no... he found the
At least SFO and few other airports no longer require to take off your shoes.
BTW If you want a check to be deterrent you can simply just use it on 10% of the passengers. Like the shoe check for example. Uncertainty is still sufficient deterrent and it will speed up the lines quite a bit. I would even go as far as simply just screen 10% of the passengers for anything. The checks could be much more thorough, just like we do with the customs. There is no reason why the model that works for customs should not be replicated for the security checks.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
What service do you use that maps bus routes? Google transit won't give me any routes. I know that the local bus line makes runs to the major bus lines like greyhound but google can't find it.
Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
Flight 93
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
The organization of idiots needs to be shut down as it adds no value to travelers.
It does provide "make work jobs" to the inept though.
Replace them with someone in private industry if we have to have them.
It's still idiotic at that. The thing that made another 9/11-style attack impossible was not the TSA, DHS, or even the strengthened cockpit doors. It's the fact that post-9/11 a hijacking doesn't mean an inconvenient side trip and valium-laced pizza. It means the plane is going to be flown into a building, killing everybody... unless people onboard stop it. Passengers have already ganged up and *killed* would-be copycats who've tried to break into airplane cockpits.
And it wouldn't matter a whit if the knuckle draggers could stop every single weapon going through security. The 9/11 attackers used box cutters, sure. Well, the last time I flew, I treated myself to a post-security breakfast of steak and eggs. The knife they gave me for my steak was not the best steak knife I've used. But it was perfectly cromulent to the task, would have made for a better weapon than box cutters, and would have been trivial to take from the restaurant and onto the plane. Or what if the terrorist simply had an accomplice get a job working as, say, a janitor post-security. Imagine the two most common cleaning chemicals, mixed, in a closed environment such as an airplane.
Imagine all the people...
If only we all had that kind of money...
Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
...Buy more explosives checkers, and get ones so sensitive they'll detect the explosives inside a firearm cartridge loaded inside a gun. Don't look for the metal. Look for the cartridge.
In any system, there are always two complementary failure modes. We call these "type 1" and "type 2" errors. For example, a switch can fail open (does not conduct when it should conduct) or closed (conducts when it is not supposed to conduct).
For a detector, the error types are "false negative", failing to detect an explosive that is there, and "false positive"-- detecting an explosive when one is not there.
It's easy to make a detective super sensitive. Of course, this means that the false positive rate will be astronomical.
Sounds like a very expensive tiger-repelling rock.
Terrorists are not normal people. They have super human powers. A pair of tweezers and a small bottle of water is all it takes for them to blow an Airplane out of the sky. How they do it is, of course, top secret.
That is why merely bolting the cabin doors is not sufficient. Every passenger needs to be thoroughly searched, inside and out. Just looking for guns and explosives is not nearly enough. A pair of tweezers hidden in a terrorist's shoe is all that it takes.
We've already seen this happen with the guy who was dubbed the underwear bomber. A Dutch passenger jumped the attacker and detained him.
""Two years ago the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) offered $15,000 to anybody -- literally anybody -- who could come up with an idea to speed up airport security..." writes Popular Science."
So if someone did come up with such a great idea, why not implement it themselves and make more than a relatively paltry $15K for coming up with an idea of that could save millions.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Bullshit. Many people have been able to get banned items through TSA without much, if any, effort. That includes blades, guns and bombs.
In fact, due to the large backup created by security theatre, a terrorist could simply suicide bomb the checkpoints and wipe out more people than would be on an airplane.
Frequent fliers should sell their house or move out of their apartment, rent space at the terminal, and just live there.
Strange, back when the connies were flying it used to take more or less eight hours to get from LA to New York. And here we are over fifty years into the jet age, and now it takes that long again.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
What "failure"? What better way is there to detain people than keeping them waiting in line? I know of only one. Put them on the plane and keep it on the tarmac for six hours while they do background checks on them.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
90% of it is Security Theatre to get people flying. Politicians only care about what 50% + 1 of the voting public thinks and reacts to - not what actually works.
The only thing the TSA gorillas are achieving is to make tourists stop visiting the US.
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
The TSA hasn't caught any terrorists yet. It's expensive, intrusive, and useless.
The purpose of the screenings is not to "catch terrorists" but to deter the terrorists from even trying. I am not say that the TSA is effective, I am just saying that the lack of arrested terrorists isn't proof that they aren't.
Except every year there's a study published where the DHS or FBI or whoever tried to sneak stuff past the TSA, and >95% of it gets through.
Those are pretty good odds for a terrorist. If there really are that many just dying to get on planes and do whatever, surely some would try with those awesome odds. Either that, or all these terrorists are complete idiots.
And really, they'd have to be an idiot to try to get on a plane to try to cause terror. As many have noted, they could blow up something outside the security zone in an airport and probably cause more mayhem (since they could likely bring more explosives than they could ever get past security in a small bag). Or they could blow up something somewhere else -- like a bus, or a mall, or a crowd, or whatever. Or skip the bomb and do something less predictable... does no one remember after 9/11 when everyone was concerned about various "soft targets"? Like poisoning a water treatment plant for a city. Or blowing up a train track and derailing it. Or whatever. The media talked about this stuff on the news for months after 9/11, because if there were so many terrorists, that's the sort of stuff they'd logically go to, rather than trying to get through airport security.
And yet, no terrorists. No bridges or malls or trains or buses blowing up, no water being poisoned, etc.
If this huge number of terrorists ready to attack the U.S. actually exists, they must be complete morons who have a weird "airplane fetish" and are for some bizarre reason cowed into submission by the 5% chance they might have their bomb discovered by the TSA.
It makes no logical sense. Sure, it's not "proof" in the formal logic sense, but it makes the whole idea that there are this huge number of terrorists out there seem rather silly.
That's exactly what I've been doing for the past few years. Avoiding the US. All my tourism and shopping dollars are going elsewhere.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Confirming that this is true. I used to go to the US at least once a year, every year. I haven't been for 5 or 6 years and I actively seek flights that bypass the US hubs.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I can arrive at my local, SF Bay Area commuter airport, drive straight up to my plane, pull the plane out, park in the hangar, taxi and be in LA, Reno or Las Vegas usually before a commercial flight takes off. People keep saying that General Aviation is suffering but it's only because people are willing to deal with 3 hour waits for security.
I rarely need to go across the country. You'll never see me at SFO, SJC or OAK for anyplace that I can fly to in less than a tank of gas for my private plane...
I'm surprised there hasn't been a huge uptick in private pilots being busted for flying people "under the table" to their destinations.
Then again I can understand why there hasn't been much in the news about it.
The first rule of Flight Club is; don't talk about Flight Club.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
90% of it is Security Theatre to get people flying. Politicians only care about what 50% + 1 of the voting public thinks and reacts to - not what actually works.
To get people flying? the incredible indignity, and waiting and hassles, of this is what caused me to stop flying. Last flight I took was in 2002, and although I love the experience of flying, stopping flying has actually been pretty enjoyable. I don't miss it at all.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
At least he's willing to state who he is, unlike you who are an Anonymous Coward. One who enjoys boot-licking I should add, if you're the same one as OP in this thread.
Seconded, added to the fact that US Immigration seems unable to accept that some people actually come to the US for tourism or business and not to over-stay their visas. All-in-all, flying into, out of, and around the USA is a truly ghastly experience.
If you don't like it, don't fly. The sense of entitlement among Slashdot users is ridiculous. Take an Amtrak, a bus, or drive.
Yeah, next time I go from here in Honolulu to the mainland I'll take Amtrak. Brilliant concept.
There's no such thing as "under the table". As the pilot in command of a private plane, I can take anyone I want anywhere I want to with only a couple of restrictions. I can even get paid for it if I have a commercial license.
As far as the expense... $9k and my license is good for life. If you only want to fly yourself during the day, it is much cheaper because you can get a sport pilot or recreational pilot license (but you have some flight restrictions then).
Join a local flying club for a few hundred bucks and then dues are about $50 a month and rental of $80/hour flight time plus gas.... or you can buy a used plane or experimental for basically the same price as a car. My plane was $34k, but the mechanic at my flight school bought a beauty for less than $20k.
Given that the salaries are already $14k-$29k +/- regional adjustments for TSO's, what makes the private contractors any better? You're going to get even less motivated individuals given that contractors would expect a cut out of the already-abysmally low wage, never mind the higher instability of a contract job.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Have you ever worked at an airport? It sure doesn't sound like it.
Couple quick points:
Half hour has to be the cut-off for checkin... so you need to be there sooner to make sure you are checked in prior to cut-off. You need to start boarding the aircraft at 30 prior.
What good are random terminal security checks when Bob can put his bomb in his luggage and carry the trigger in his cellphone?
Also, FAMs do not prevent bombings if suicide is just the only goal. FAMs can make sure the flight deck is safe but if Jihad Johnny sets himself off in 30C... aint much a FAM will do.
Now, I'm with you. The TSA is worthless. Unfortunately, your ideas are not based in reality.
I can even get paid for it if I have a commercial license.
And that right there is why Flight Club exists and why you don't talk about Flight Club.
The cost, difficulty, and ongoing hassle & expense of obtaining and maintaining a commercial pilot's license and the restrictive nature of FAA rules surrounding non-commercial pilots accepting any money from a passenger and all the requirements for security/passenger-screening, registering routes, etc etc etc. You can't simply take the classes and pass the tests, buy/lease a passenger aircraft, hang a shingle, and start running radio ads like the local auto-parts store.
The entire system is unnecessarily designed so as to prevent individual entrepreneurship in passenger and cargo air transport. There are no "independent owner/operator truckers" of the airways except for a very few in places like Alaska where the major commercial operators have no interest in taking on services.
Preventing competition and small-business operators by raising the bar to entry to effectively restrict commercial air passenger & cargo transportation to a small number of large corporations by the government enacting the necessary laws, Acts, and regulations is intentional. A handful of large corporations are much easier to monitor and control to enable tracking and controlling individual domestic travel than thousands of small-time private operations.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
I clearly must be doing something wrong. I frequently travel to the US from Europe and have hardly ever had any trouble getting in or out. In comparison with the shenanigans at some European airports (Italy, France, I'm looking at you), I'm not sure I see why the US is seen to be so much worse.
This article was written in April. Since then, the TSA did a lot of hiring, and the long lines are gone. Yes, they messed up, and their role is a bit dubious, but if we're going to trash the TSA, let's at least take into account the improvements they HAVE made!
No need to do that. They could look at literally the rest of the world, most of which do not engage in the same security shenanigans as the US is.
To be fair to the GP, only a fucking retard signs a letter that puts their name and company at the top in the letterhead.
See how that works?
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
This reminds me of an old joke.
A man plants little flags on his backyard. His neighbor asks: "Why are you planting little flags?" "To repel the giraffes", he answers. "How do you know it's working?" "Well, have you seen any giraffes?"
Go back to reasonable searches and stop being shit scared of everyone. Now, where do I get my cheque?
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
If you don't like it, don't fly. The sense of entitlement among Slashdot users is ridiculous. Take an Amtrak, a bus, or drive.
Yeah, next time I go from here in Honolulu to the mainland I'll take Amtrak. Brilliant concept.
Get a boat?
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Informative, really? I thought the solution to that problem was to close the fucking cockpit door during flight?
Yeah but then that other guy used that to crash his jet into a mountain so.......
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
The only thing the TSA gorillas are achieving is to make tourists stop visiting the US.
Yeah. I used to really wanna go. Now? No fucking way. Definitely not on a holiday out of my own pocket, maybe for work if I got paid extra. Not just because of the TSA but a whole bunch of reasons.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
He is right though. You have your name at the top, and you have a signature part at the bottom, yet you write in -jcr everytime. Why not just put that in your sig? Not that I give a shit but it is pointless.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
So conventions of spelling, sentence structure and such don't apply on the internet?
You know, that explains SO MUCH.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
Me too, it's quite sad. I have quite a few USA friends, but I'm damned if I'm signing up for another expulsion like last time. ...
I was categorically informed that I was lucky to NOT be housed in a regular prison until they put me on a plane back to where I came from.
I don't need to risk an arse-raping just because I want to go my friend's wedding
I don't even bother thinking about visiting Canada, since they use the same system. ...
Damn shame.
Thankfully, there's plenty more of the planet worth a visit
Fuck the American military and the American congress - you guys are history anyway, since the Chinese have started dumping your currency wholesale .... ... and they're not alone ... ... the void beckons :)
No need to do that. They could look at literally the rest of the world, most of which do not engage in the same security shenanigans as the US is.
Sure, except the rest of the world isn't the United States. They're an exceptional target, right?
"Oh no... he found the
I recently flew to Europe and the checks in Europe are reasonable and thus quite fast. In the US you have to get to a rather needless state of undress, pass soft x-ray machines, get a pat down, and potentially get elected for further search. In Europe, you can keep your shoes on, pass through a metal detector, and if that does not sound an alarm you grab your stuff and move on. All these TSA checks are totally over the top, time consuming, and with little to no effect beyond what was done before. Plus, plenty of times the checks are proven to be ineffective. Even worse is immigrations. In Europe they check your passport, if that does not come up on a list as flagged they wish you a good day and you are on your way. In the US, you get to fill out custom forms, then answer tons of questions at a kiosk, then scan in every passport document you may have, then try ten times until that automatic camera manages to take your picture, and if you happen to be a legal resident you get fingerprinted yet again. You get a receipt and then walk up to an officer who except for the picture does exactly the same stuff that they always did. So why did I have to fight for ten minutes with a badly designed kiosk app? All that does not curb any bad things from happening and only increases the lengths of the lines. So, how about US officials get their act together and keep only those checks that indeed accomplish something and get rid of everything else. Paying the TSA clerks more than minimum wage will also help. TSA is the largest government employment program the US has ever seen. A lot of money spent with not much to show for.
Note that the 9/11 terrorists selected their departure airport carefully. Boston was already _infamous_ among American airports for having untrained, overworked, underpaid, incompetent airport security personnel.
This is not to support the TSA's expensive and fraudulently advertised radiation based scanning, nor to support the genuinely physically invasive searches and abuse of passengers that has occurred under their more rigorous searches. But the handling of private contractors is rife with opportunities to let security systems fail very badly indeed.
Perhaps you are caucasian and has rich man appearance
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
Security theater doesn't get people to fly. Bosses, prestige, or significant others who don't want to sit in a car for more than 5 hours gets people to fly (since 5 hours is usually about the cutoff to where driving can make more sense than flying if it only takes 5 hours to drive).
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
Well, if the pilot wants to kill you, you're screwed. Duh. Anything else new?
There are certain things you cannot protect yourself against. But it is absolutely and positively certain that no terrorist passenger will EVER again crash land a plane in a building. It's just like the trojan horse. The first was a huge success. The trick hasn't ever worked since.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
No.
The goal of terrorism is to strike fear into the hearts of the enemies. And for Islamist terrorism, that's pretty much the whole world. Yes, including Muslim countries for being not Muslim enough. No true Muslim country allows US military bases on its soil and all that.
The US sure are a main target, but by no means the only one. If anything, striking at other countries would make a lot more sense, the US are already quite successfully cowed into crapping their pants 'til it comes out the neck, it's the rest of the world that still doesn't fear Islamism enough.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You may have an idea there...
How about the TSA stop checking people that don't need to be checked? If you're transiting from one (reasonably organised) country to another, then no need to go through security again (or go via a fast track that has less checks)? The US has special secure areas at some non-US airports because they have their own special checks - surely they are secure enough not to have to recheck all the people on transit.
Years ago, I traveled to Canada via the US with a buddy of mine. He got an extra frisk 3 times before we got to Security (in Heathrow, UK). Even though we were traveling together, I only got the standard check at security. I was left wondering what the first frisk missed that it needed repeating two more times just to be sure. Why not just train the first guy to be better at his job (and arguably frisk me at the same time) rather than have the other two goons?
If they've been running a competition for a 'solution' to their problems and haven't found a winner yet, then they aren't listening. There's got to be a thousand ways to improve whilst making them more effective and do so at less cost/inconvenience.
Well, if the pilot wants to kill you, you're screwed. Duh. Anything else new?
True enough but my point was what would have saved the day one time cost it another. It would have been a lot harder for that guy to do that had the door been less secure but then it wouldn't be much cop at keeping terrorists out so it's a catch 22. It's obvious why it's the way it is, just saying.
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Apparently you've not heard of the VIPR Program.
Probability is not on your side. You have 3-4 people in the cockpit and approximately 300 outside. Of those 3-4 inside, they are thoroughly screened and had a lot of training and examination, the 300 outside not so much.
Your chance to avoid disaster is higher by keeping that door locked.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It's obvious why it's the way it is, just saying.
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Not so much. For most foreign tourists, the real pain is passport control. I flew in to San Jose two weeks ago on a 789 from London. There were about two hundred non-US citizens in a single line to see a single border guard, who was taking an average 7 minutes to process each person. I was near the front and got away with only a 45 minute wait, but I shudder to think how long the folks at the back would have to wait. I'm sure that once the US citizens were all processed, the guards would start processing non-US, but I still think it would be a four or five hour wait for many. That is beyond ridiculous.
This kind of muscular stupidity is really fucking irritating. Intent is not that important. The Israelis stopped a young pregnant woman from boarding a plane in 1986. She'd been duped into carrying a bomb by her boyfriend.
The TSA hasn't caught any terrorists yet. It's expensive, intrusive, and useless.
The purpose of the screenings is not to "catch terrorists" but to deter the terrorists from even trying. I am not say that the TSA is effective, I am just saying that the lack of arrested terrorists isn't proof that they aren't.
There was a guy on a train with sheets of paper in his hand. Every so often he'd tear off a piece of paper, roll it into a ball and throw it out the window. Curious, I asked him why he was doing this.
He: "It keeps the tigers away."
Me: "Don't be silly there aren't any tigers here!"
He: "See! It works!"
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
It also scares away people having good intentions.
I'd rather walk than fly in the "Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave".
I just assumed that the 'Brave' the song mentions were the Native American warriors.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
I haven't been to the US since they stepped up "security" either. I have got family over there, which I visited twice before that, but never since.
It also scares away people having good intentions.
I'd rather walk than fly in the "Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave".
I just assumed that the 'Brave' the song mentions were the Native American warriors.
God damn it, I just love the clever, Twainesque sarcasms of the witty on this site!
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Security theater doesn't get people to fly. Bosses, prestige, or significant others who don't want to sit in a car for more than 5 hours gets people to fly (since 5 hours is usually about the cutoff to where driving can make more sense than flying if it only takes 5 hours to drive).
The cutoff, for me, is ~ 12 hours
I allow for 1 hour to get into the Airport (~35 to 45 minute drive) to allow for traffic. If it's a late night/early morning flight then this is less of a concern. I also then allow for 2 hours in the airport to get through security, etc. Then tack on another 1 hour or so in the airport on the other side (assuming a direct flight) getting your stuff, and getting out to a car and on your way. If it isn't a direct flight, then tack on another 1 to 2 hours just for waiting for the connecting flight. This adds up to between 4 to 6 hours where you could be driving directly to your destination, not including flight time.
For example, from Boston to Knoxville you can:
1. "Fly" for 8.5 hours (4 hours airport, 4.5 hours flight time), pay for a rental (or taxi and public transportation), pay for plane tickets, and watch a movie or read a book while getting there.
2. Drive for 11 to 14 hours (depending on your driving style), have your own car, leave and stop when you want, bring as much crap as you want both to the destination and home with you, etc.
Granted, for most people, the 4 hour airport experience and 4.5 hour flight time is worth it because they don't enjoy driving enough to be a in car for 12 hours. They still see that as worse than the Airport/Airplane experience. Personally, I enjoy driving. Don't get me wrong, I like flying too. I've traveled internationally enough to have gotten good at it. But for destinations around 12 hours away by car, I would rather drive.
And yes, I've thought about this way too much... (grin)
No.
The goal of terrorism is to strike fear into the hearts of the enemies. And for Islamist terrorism, that's pretty much the whole world. Yes, including Muslim countries for being not Muslim enough. No true Muslim country allows US military bases on its soil and all that.
The US sure are a main target, but by no means the only one. If anything, striking at other countries would make a lot more sense, the US are already quite successfully cowed into crapping their pants 'til it comes out the neck, it's the rest of the world that still doesn't fear Islamism enough.
I mean this in the nicest possible way: WOOOOOSH.
The government of the US believes that they are an exceptional target. They need the TSA when nobody else does. The boogeyman terrorists what dead Americans, and other countries not needing the TSA only demonstrates that those countries aren't as threatened as the US, not that the US isn't threatened.
"Oh no... he found the
To be honest, the TSA is about as effective at stopping terrorism as police are at deterring crime.
See the reports of how often teams were able to smuggle test bombs and weapons through TSA security to understand how effective they are.
I am far more concerned with the theft problem with airport employees than I am with terrorism. Odds of my getting on a plane with a terrorist are laughable in comparison to the odds my high $ camera gear actually surviving a run through any given airport and their trustworthy staff :|
1. Abolish TSA and use simple scanners. 2. Use secure cockpit doors PLUS a red button that any flight attendant can trigger that requests immediate safe landing and that shuts down all communication with cockpit until landing.
I just left a travelling consulting position after 9 years, and the grind of travel was a major part of my reason for leaving. I have said the same thing for years: super-expensive, dealing with McIdiots, being irradiated, and no significant benefit to anyone except terrorists who now have a convenient corral of unarmed people to victimize. Why the f*ck are we paying for this again?
Fucktard.
How much buisness are the US airlines losing because flying is only worth it for 300+ mile journeys? how much are they losing because people chose routes that avoid the US?
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Well, isn't that their job? Their whole mandate is to stop tourists! And they're damned good at it! They... Wait, what? "Terrorists?" They're supposed to stop terrorists, not tourists? Shit, somebody better tell them that...
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
echo "replace those inefficient, untrained, low paid knuckleheads with....inefficient, untrained HIGH paid government knuckleheads" > /etc/qotd
His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
It still bothers me how many Americans still accept their government's version of 9/11. It acceptance around the world is no where near as high as it is in America.
WTF are you talking about? Nobody has given me this report. I didn't sign off on it. There is no consequence one way or the other to me choosing to accept or reject it, so why would I? Nobody is going to stand up and fix the TSA if I declare that I don't accept it.
Most people are not breathlessly interested in these things. We have lives to get on with.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Granted, for most people, the 4 hour airport experience and 4.5 hour flight time is worth it because they don't enjoy driving enough to be a in car for 12 hours. They still see that as worse than the Airport/Airplane experience. Personally, I enjoy driving. Don't get me wrong, I like flying too. I've traveled internationally enough to have gotten good at it. But for destinations around 12 hours away by car, I would rather drive.
And yes, I've thought about this way too much... (grin)
I seem to do fine arriving 1 hour before the flight. So that's 30-45 minutes before boarding starts. 10 minutes through the pre-check line worst case, a few minutes to get a coffee and then start boarding.
Maybe it's my airport, but I don't think so. We've taken a 2 day drive in the past instead of flying, but that was a nice drive. The decision to fly is based on multiple criteria.. is my employer paying? What day of the week is it? What's the relative cost of having my own car at the other end - renting vs petrol costs, do I want to blow my weekend traveling, or take the late flight on Friday instead? Am I visiting a nice city that I'd like a day to see on the weekend?
It's not complicated, but it's more than just time in the airport vs. time on the road.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Can you imagine what kind of backups we will see at airport security lines when they start dragging giant wooden horses through the metal detectors?
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But what are you trying to fix? No airport would have stopped box cutters pre 9/11; I thought a 4" knife was still ok.
That said, airport security still sucked, screening lines were too long, and the results were inconsistent at best. Not much has changed, beyond the cost.
And yet, no terrorists. No bridges or malls or trains or buses blowing up, no water being poisoned, etc.
Perhaps not in the US, but in Nice, France, there was recently that Tunisian fellow who drove a large truck through a crowd (on the sidewalk) for two kilometers, killing nearly 100 people, and injuring slightly over 200. Pretty good soft target: a diffuse crowd gathered for Bastille Day celebrations. Quite effective terrorism.
Then in the US, there was that couple in San Bernardino who shot up a Christmas party in 2015. Another effective act of terrorism on a soft target.
And the recent shooting in the night club in Florida.
And the Boston Marathon bombing.
Oh, and the ricin mailed to a senator and the US president.
(and there are more)
So what were you saying again?
Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
The US has special secure areas at some non-US airports because they have their own special checks - surely they are secure enough not to have to recheck all the people on transit.
Those have been very quietly fading away. Amsterdam Schiphol used to have nude scanners and a mob of TSA agents screening passports to board a flight going to the US. Then the scanners were roped off and unused. Then they were gone and so were the agents. Didn't hear a word about it. They just vanished.
I'm guessing maintaining the tiger-repelling rock got too expensive.
No need to be rude, I'm just floating ideas.
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False. People are sheep and will avoid being gutted like fish even if it means being flown into a building later.
"The ability to do exactly what the TSA does, only faster and cheaper" - wtf why doesnt the TSA just get faster then... what about being a private security agent make you able to do the same shit faster than a TSA agent? does the TSA only hire cavemen?
They already charge a fee to be nearly TSA-free. It's call TSA Precheck. $75 for 5 years. You get to skip the long long and keep your belt and shoes on.
https://www.tsa.gov/precheck
It is a huge failure as most people who don't fly regularly don't want to be bothered with the fee or the background check hassle. It takes 2-4 months to get it done ahead of time, depending on where you live and your airport, etc.
I drive. Sold my 2012 car last year, in May, with 3 years and 1 month on it, and 124,000 miles on the odometer. I get around, and I do it by driving. I got fed up with the TSA a long time ago, and just decided not to be poked, felt-up, x-rayed, or have stuff stolen out of my luggage. Just stuff everything into the trunk and hit the road. No more illegal 4th amendment violations for me.
The purpose of the screenings is not to "catch terrorists" but to deter the terrorists from even trying.
By creating new targets?
Deterrment, yes. Check for guns, X-Ray the baggage, yes. Maybe some sniff test for explosives. But what is making this ritual so tedious AND useless is this overly specific thing with water bottles and nail clippers. Not to mention undressing while standing in line with hundreds of other people and trying to juggle shoes, belt, jacket, carry on, liquid bag and all the small stuff already removed from your pockets. Not to mention holding up your pants caus ethat belt was there for a friggin reason!
Everything that is small enough to be hidden in a shoe is also small enough to be smuggled past TSA by an acomplice.
bickerdyke
News stations will stand in line to get footage of hundreds confiscated water bottles and nail clippers.
bickerdyke
Or they just noticed that they aren't doing anything else than the Schiphol crew already did.
bickerdyke
The most negative thing I have any interest in doing while in a US airport is leave the country, but still I'm nervous.
That's not negative.
In fact, when I travel to the US, it always chuckels me up that the immigration goon can't wrap his head around the concept that people actually will want to go home again after their holiday.
bickerdyke
#1: How would you recognize muslims?
#2: Oklahoma City bombing
#3 Anders Breivik
Well, you may be true if by "catastrophic act of terror" you're restricting yourself to "planes flown into buildings"
bickerdyke
A high death toll is not even the goal, but rather a means. Terror is the goal.
bickerdyke
Counter argument : Flight 181
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
What?! How did I miss that? Sorry I don't know what happened that week but I was unaware that a plane had been hijacked since flight 93. Thank you for pointing that out.
Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
It varies massively by airport. Going through Houston on a B777 or B787 from London, I get through passport control before my luggage reaches the carousel every time, and that's been consistent for years. Each non-US citizen passenger gets through in generally less than 2 minutes, and there's always many gates open, so even if you're at the back the wait isn't typically all that long.
Dallas Fort Worth on the other hand... I will never use DFW again.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
I can take anyone I want anywhere I want to with only a couple of restrictions. I can even get paid for it if I have a commercial license.
Um, no, you can't get paid for it unless you have a Part 135 certificate which involves a lot more expense and effort (even single pilot 135 still has all the hassles of maintaining the aircraft to 135 standards).
You can share the expenses, but you don't need a commercial certificate for that.
I agree about the variance. My pro-tip for people flying into Manhattan was to always choose Newark over JFK, because of the wild difference in immigration lines. Philadelphia is also awful. Orlando is fine.
Seconded @jcr's point (who gives a fuck if he signs or not?), and only an asshole trolls the point.
This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for