Dutchman Dies in Tesla Crash; Firefighters Feared Electrocution (reuters.com)

A Dutchman died on Wednesday after his Tesla collided with a tree, according to local authorities, and it took firefighters hours to remove his body from the vehicle due to fears they could be electrocuted. Reuters reports: The cause of the crash on a highway about 40 kilometers east of Amsterdam was not known. Photos of the crash scene published by local media showed the back of the car mostly intact but its front smashed in and parts strewn about. Tesla said it was "working with the authorities to establish the facts of the incident" and would publish its findings as soon as they were available. A spokeswoman said it was not known whether the car was using "autopilot", Tesla's driving assistance technology, at the time of the crash, and that would form part of the investigation. A fatal crash of a Tesla Model S in the United States earlier this year knocked the company's shares and raised concerns about whether automated driving technology was being released to consumers safely.

Comments

Great firefighters

[Dunbal]

It's not like your house or building is hooked up to the power mains when they fight fires there - no risk of electrocution at all. /sarcasm

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

If they cut the power to an electrical fire, enough water will put the rest out.

A lithium fire is the LAST thing you want to pour water on, on the other hand, so no, it's not like your "house or building" at all.

Re:Great firefighters

[Burdell]

For larger buildings, the first thing they'll do is shut off the power. That's the reason data centers usually have the "big red button"; that is there to make it "safe" for firefighters. The 240VAC main in a typical house (at least in the US) is much less dangerous than the high-voltage DC found in electric cars.

Also, while you can get a short by spraying water across live electrical lines, they are not liable to explode like lithium batteries.

Were they overly cautious? Possibly. Are there legitimate concerns about how to deal with the electric cars? Yes. Should they be handled with better training? Also yes.

Re:Great firefighters

[Tunefix]

Your house can be disconnected from the mains at a safe distance. Disconnecting the batteries in an electric car on fire - not so easy.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

In the event of a house fire the electricity is disconnected as soon as possible from the structure. Either by removing the meter or the utility cuts the lines at the junction box.

Fire fighters rarely go into a building that is still connected to the mains.

Re:Great firefighters

[Dunbal]

Burning gasoline is the last thing you want to pour water on, too. Firefighters usually come prepared for all sorts of fires.

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

From the article:

De Boer said since firefighters were certain the victim had died immediately after the crash, it did not make sense for rescue workers to take unneeded risks in recovering his body.

This isn't like America, where the police wait hours outside while a Columbine or Orland shooting is happening.

Re:Great firefighters

[retsaMedoC]

Not like Tesla has any guide for First Responders to help in said training efforts. Oh wait, they do. https://www.tesla.com/firstres...

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, like firefighters are going to read this at the scene

Re:Great firefighters

[PRMan]

You expect Dutchmen to read English? That's ridiculous... ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_in_the_Netherlands

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Not like Tesla has any guide for First Responders to help in said training efforts. Oh wait, they do. https://www.tesla.com/firstres...

Did you read the guide at all?

Warning: Regardless of the disabling procedure you use, ALWAYS ASSUME THAT ALL HIGH VOLTAGE COMPONENTS ARE
ENERGIZED! Cutting, crushing, or touching high voltage components can result in serious injury or death.

I'm guessing reading is hard for you.

Fucking idiot.

Re:Great firefighters

[suutar]

actually, having seen the guidance Tesla issued to first responders, _small amounts_ of water are the last thing you want. Lots and lots of water to cool it down, on the other hand, is the prescribed method to extinguish Tesla battery fires.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Most newer houses in the US have a circuit breaker panel on the outside of the house with a master breaker. Anyone trying to cut a service line carrying 200+ amps to a house is misguided at best, dead at worst

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

(Firefighters arrive at a burning brewery.) "So, Bob, better get out the manual and read up on this one, I guess, eh?" "Yeah, maybe we should have paid more attention during training."

Re:Great firefighters

[AK Marc]

Throwing water on a "lithium fire" isn't an issue. The absolutely worst case is that the battery reacts with the water to create some hydrogen gas, which then burns. Water is an appropriate fire suppression agent for a battery fire.

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

From the description of the accident and response by firefighters and studying model S Emerency Response Guide I think firefighters actually acted according to ERG in that they acted with caution and eventually waited to see if battery is not overheating. NB: the guide actually advises to use huge amounts of water to extinguish battery fire.

Re:Great firefighters

[Strider-]

For larger buildings, the first thing they'll do is shut off the power.

The NEC includes what is known as the "6 throw rule." You must be able to shut down the power to a building by throwing no more than 6 switches/breakers on a single panel.

Re:Great firefighters

[Rei]

First off, there was no fire. Secondly, what the kind of rescue service doesn't have a class C fire extinguisher? What do they do if a car crashes into a power pole?

Regardles, my reaction to this article is "Slow News Day". Basically:

"Man Dies In Car Crash. Details at 11."

Or...

"Car with high voltage battery pack crashes." Because clearly that's never happened before. And crashed cars full of gasoline are totally safe environments for rescuers.

Seriously, do they not train rescue workers? If so then why don't they train them to respond to electric and hybrid vehicle crashes so that they know what's safe and what's not? It's their job, they should know what the heck they're doing.

Rescue workers are supposed to assume that every vehicle is a hybrid or electric until proven otherwise. Badging and identifying details can be damaged in a crash, and many vehicles come in similar electric/or hybrid and gasoline versions. It's not just about high voltages. There are many things that disconnect the HV system, and one of them is crash sensors. But a problem with hybrids or EVs is that the vehicle may still be "running", but without the noise of a running gasoline engine. Hence immobilizing the vehicle - both turning it off, and clipping or removing the 12V system - is one of the first steps. A vehicle that is still energized could, for example, unexpectedly deploy an undeployed airbag.

All high voltage components are brightly marked. Again, by default a vehicle will disable its battery pack in a crash. Nonetheless, you never cut a bright-colored cable. The concept of having to avoid cutting certain areas should be nothing new to a rescuer, because it's also dangerous to cut other parts of a vehicle, such as airbags (side curtain airbags in particular are vulnerable to being cut) or the fuel tank. A rescue worker is supposed to have an idea of where things are. And speaking of "where things are", if they know where the HV pack is, they can throw the switch. All HV packs have a switch to shut them off for maintenance.

Re:Great firefighters

[ortholattice]

Did you read the guide at all?

Warning: Regardless of the disabling procedure you use, ALWAYS ASSUME THAT ALL HIGH VOLTAGE COMPONENTS ARE ENERGIZED! Cutting, crushing, or touching high voltage components can result in serious injury or death.

I'm guessing reading is hard for you

On p. 14, "Cutting the front trunk first responder loop", it shows how to disable the high voltage. Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire. This shuts down the high voltage system outside of the high voltage battery itself. For extra safety, you cut a section out of it so it won't reconnect accidentally.

IMO they should put this on the first page. But at least it is there.

Re:Great firefighters

[jedidiah]

No, they're going to be trained properly at the academy so as not to be a national disgrace or to risk people's lives. It's not like this is complicated stuff. Its stuff you get taught in civilian outreach courses.

Perhaps if they were too chicken or too poorly trained, they should have called in a lineman to sort them out.

What was this, a bunch of volunteers out in the sticks?

Re:Great firefighters

[hawguy]

Your house can be disconnected from the mains at a safe distance.
Disconnecting the batteries in an electric car on fire - not so easy.

Unless your house has solar + battery backup. Many have an off-switch for emergency responders (sometimes required by law), but you still need to approach the house to reach it.

Re:Great firefighters

[CanadianMacFan]

From the article: "Photos of the crash scene published by local media showed the back of the car mostly intact but its front smashed in and parts strewn about."

I'm guessing that they probably couldn't see the label or if they could it wasn't near the coiled loop of red wire anymore.

Re: Great firefighters

[sunking2]

I don't want to pay firefighters to be trained in a car that .000001% of the populace has. There is much more beneficial training to be had.

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Well these guys took over 5 hours to get the guy out, so yeah, they had time.

Re: Great firefighters

[Areyoukiddingme]

I don't want to pay firefighters to be trained in a car that .000001% of the populace has. There is much more beneficial training to be had.

And yet all firefighters receive extensive hazmat training, despite cars carrying hazardous materials being .000001% of the population. Even trucks carrying hazardous materials are a tiny fraction of all truck miles driven. They can get the training and you can fucking pay for it.

Re: Great firefighters

[amRadioHed]

How are the risks from a Tesla greater than the risks from hybrid cars which are all over the place?

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I DO want to pay them. So now what?

Re:Great firefighters

[thegarbz]

The 240VAC main in a typical house (at least in the US) is much less dangerous than the high-voltage DC found in electric cars.

What high voltage DC? The Tesla's battery pack is 375V, lower than the 415V ph-ph supplied to pretty much every apartment in the Netherlands, and what is actually used in houses with a high load.

But the idea that AC or DC are more dangerous at these voltages and currents doesn't make sense. Both present very different risks with a DC arc flash being far more dangerous in terms of burns, while AC is far more dangerous to your nervous system.

The only time there's really a difference is at low voltages where the maximum save touch potential is considered 50VAC and 120VDC.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing not being a pussy is hard for you and those firefighters.

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Wondered for a second if it was my boss, when it hit the news. But it's the Netherlands. Tesla's are everywhere here. And yes, the fire dept. had trained on electric car fires for exactly that reason. Plus, they have carry instructions for all car models with them; they knew exactly what they were dealing with. One dead person, no other lives at risk - let's keep it that way.

Re:Great firefighters

[GrumpySteen]

First off, there was no fire.

Really? Because the linked article says "Newspaper De Telegraaf reported the car's battery was broken, and part of it caught fire and was difficult to extinguish." which clearly indicates that there was a fire.

Seriously, do they not train rescue workers? If so then why don't they train them to respond to electric and hybrid vehicle crashes so that they know what's safe and what's not? It's their job, they should know what the heck they're doing.

The linked article also says "De Boer said since firefighters were certain the victim had died immediately after the crash, it did not make sense for rescue workers to take unneeded risks in recovering his body." which clearly explains why the firefighters didn't risk their lives even if the chance of electrocution was very small.

Maybe next time you're about to go off on a rant like this, you should take the time to read the linked article before you make yourself look stupid in public.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is that?

Re: Great firefighters

[easyTree]

Shhhhj, you're spoiling someone's attempt to push Tesla's stock price down.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry I used terms you may not be familiar with. When speaking with an electrician, when he/she says they are going to cut the lines, it means they will be disconnecting the wires using safe procedures. Although with the correct safety equipment you can cut 240V lines while live and have no issues at all.

I was an apprentice electrician for 6 months in my younger days. Before I realized why HVAC guys have major knee problems.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Should have called an electrician.

Re:Great firefighters

[rch7]

At least in the US houses have pullable meters, or master switch outside, or option to disconnect electricity at nearby pole. Firefighters do it before spraying water, or call electric company to disconnect electricity.

Burning Li Ion batteries emit highly toxic fumes. I wouldn't even get close. And the certainly start burning if impact is heavy enough to damage them.

Re:Great firefighters

[zenith1111]

What high voltage DC? The Tesla's battery pack is 375V, lower than the 415V ph-ph supplied to pretty much every apartment in the Netherlands

Are you sure? Voltage here in Europe is usually a single 230V phase pretty much everywhere, unless you are running a small factory or have huge power requirements at home, then you will use 3 phases. Maybe you were talking about the 315V peak to peak, but it will still be less than 375V, anyway, the problem is not just the voltage, it's that the voltage is encased in a metal shell, and if that shell looks broken and poking everywhere, you either proceed very carefully or you are ignorant. The same firefighters would also be very careful about a fuel spill, but there are decades of experience dealing with those, electric cars not so much.

Oh, and it doesn't matter how dry my hands are, I would not touch 120VDC.

Re:Great firefighters

[rch7]

Li Ion does not have metallic Lithium. Some batteries do. They are completely different, people confuse them.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

DC electrocution is much more dangerous because your muscles stay in the fired-up state and cannot relax, pretty much latching you in. AC is more forgiving in that regard. I got electrocuted at 230V several times, including once where the current passed between my right foot and left palm, you simply let go. 50V DC passing through your body is fatal.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

But the idea that AC or DC are more dangerous at these voltages and currents doesn't make sense.

Actually, DC can be much more deadly at lower voltages than AC. The main reason is that AC current goes to zero twice per second, while DC is full current at a constant rate. So a resistive load (a firefighter in the circuit) will fry faster under 600VDC that 600VAC. For this same reason, it is also easier to interrupt an AC current vs a DC current, and why high voltage DC interrupting and switching devices are much more expensive and elaborate than same voltage AC equipment.

Re: Great firefighters

[Zeromous]

Uh the big red button is/used to be to pause a halon dump. There is no big red button in the dc. The switch is on the UPS before the bypass. And that is some scary shit to switch. The last time I switched the bypass manually I did it with a hockey stick (like that would have helped).

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because firefighters don't carry dry chem...

And water on a lithium fire depends on how much lithium is in there. For consumer electronics with lithium ion batteries that catch fire, it is completely fine to put them out with water.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

You have never been electrocuted. Dead people don't post on Slashdot.

Re: Great firefighters

[DarkVader]

Every system I've ever dealt with, the big red button causes a Halon (ok, Ecaro 25 these days) dump. The yellow button is the holdoff button.

In bigger data centers, that big red button also triggers the UPS off circuit.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe not, but brain dead people do!

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Volts don't "pass through" anything...

Re:Great firefighters

[PurpleAlien]

That's a myth, and one that is perpetuated every time this topic comes up. Let's leave aside that your muscles wouldn't be able to react fast enough to make use of the AC current going through zero at 50 or 60 Hz.

The total impedance of the human body is higher for DC and decreases when the frequency increases (illustrated here: http://www.electroboom.com/?p=...). Since the impedance for DC is higher, the severity of electric shock is less than AC. Ventricular fibrillation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventricular_fibrillation) is considered to be the main cause of death by electric shock. The probability of a human suffering from ventricular fibrillation is much higher in the case of AC than DC.

The let-go current is an experimental measure we have of the effect of electricity on humans. The let-go current is the lowest level of current passing through a human subject through an electrode held in the hand that makes the subject unable to open his hand and drop the electrode. As mentioned in the IEC publication 60479 - Effects of current on human beings and livestock (https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/2219), letting go of parts gripped is less difficult in the case of DC.

Re:Great firefighters

[thegarbz]

Voltage here in Europe is usually a single 230V phase pretty much everywhere

Next you get your meter serviced or calibrated have a look at how its setup. Most apartments have 400V ph-ph (not 415V that's Australia) running through them with each apartment hooked to an alternate phase.

This is also what makes it trivially easy for places to hook up 3ph power when required, and there's all sorts of things that needs it. e.g. my next door neighbour had 3ph connections put in as he had a hobby of repairing commercial espresso machines. My old house had 3ph because of the HVAC unit. My friend's house has a 3ph connection because they have 2 ovens in their kitchen. You don't need a massive load to justify 3ph power especially considering most countries have this facility available already at houses in any major city.

Also 120VDC doesn't hurt. Take it from experience. 110VAC does. 240VAC even more so, and doubly so when the shock makes you punch yourself in the face.

Should you approach these cars with care? Yes, they can kill you. But my point is your assertion that these cars are far more dangerous wasn't right.

Re:Great firefighters

[thegarbz]

Please keep reading, and then lookup the standards while you're at it. The fact that the voltage drops to zero has nothing to do with how deadly something is. E.g. you can quite happily direct high frequency very high voltage through your body and the only thing that you have to worry about is burning flesh and potential blood clots. The result doesn't affect your nervous system. 30-100Hz on the other hand is about as deadly as it gets for the body which is exactly why I mentioned the max safe touch potentials.

You also fail to understand how AC is measured. It is always expressed in root-mean-squared values. The voltages are quite literally defined in a way that a 600VDC and 600VAC source would produce identical power through a resistive load. This also has nothing to do with the ability to interrupt AC vs DC which is one of arc extinguishing, or if you want to get fancy, zero-crossing detection.

There are other effects though. It's far harder to rescue someone who's hung up on DC than it is AC. This is again related to how the nervous system works. With DC your muscles clench more tightly than AC for the same voltage. Typical low voltage recovery teaches you that hanging up on AC is easy enough to resolve by grabbing someone under the arm with a crook and pulling. However if working on DC the procedure should be to reef really hard on the wrist and mess up the person's hand. If they live they can thank you after.

Re:Great firefighters

[mjwx]

Did you read the guide at all?

Warning: Regardless of the disabling procedure you use, ALWAYS ASSUME THAT ALL HIGH VOLTAGE COMPONENTS ARE ENERGIZED! Cutting, crushing, or touching high voltage components can result in serious injury or death.

I'm guessing reading is hard for you

On p. 14, "Cutting the front trunk first responder loop", it shows how to disable the high voltage. Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire. This shuts down the high voltage system outside of the high voltage battery itself. For extra safety, you cut a section out of it so it won't reconnect accidentally.

IMO they should put this on the first page. But at least it is there.

I'm more concerned about what it more important than that which occupied 14 pages before this.

Re: Great firefighters

[thegarbz]

50V DC passing through your body is fatal

50VDC is not fatal for 99% of the population based on IEC curves. 50VAC however is the maximum safe touch potential defined in many countries. You're right that with DC your hang-up is stronger, but the physiological effects that kill a person requires significantly higher duration of electrocution than the equivalent AC voltage which can disrupt your nervous system in just a few cycles.

DC kills people via burns and blood clots. AC stops your heart. I too have touched 230V and lived to tell the tale. That's called luck.

Re:Great firefighters

[chihowa]

Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire.

That's a bizarre place to put a "first responder loop". In what percentage of situations would a car require the first responders to cut at the body of the car, but still be able to open the front hood without cutting? In a good fraction of bad collisions, it's the front of the car that is demolished.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

That's a myth, and one that is perpetuated every time this topic comes up. Let's leave aside that your muscles wouldn't be able to react fast enough to make use of the AC current going through zero at 50 or 60 Hz.

No, it is a fact. That is why you have an RMS current value with AC vs DC. And as far as reacting, is not about reaction speed, not sure why you brought that up. So, as I said, there will be more current, and therefore more energy dissipated in the DC case. I said the firefighter would fry faster with DC, that is the case.

I never said anything about gripping or letting go. Again, not sure why you brought that up. However, if the person did break the circuit, there would be less arcing in the AC case, and the arc would extinguish at a smaller opening distance than with DC.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

You are right, when stating voltage in terms of RMS values rather than peak. Yes, that is the standard why to express for system ratings and such, but from a physics perspective it is helpful to explain in terms of peak voltage. I never said anything about removing a person from the circuit, however, the act of interruption of an AC circuit creates less arcing and dissipates at a smaller distance than an equivalent DC circuit.

Re:Great firefighters

[ultranova]

On p. 14, "Cutting the front trunk first responder loop", it shows how to disable the high voltage. Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire.

Could this be done automatically, either through an accelerometer or just tying a weight to the wire? It's not like the car is going anywhere anyway after experiencing 200+g's.

Re:Great firefighters

[PurpleAlien]

It is not a fact. RMS can be calculated from the peak value of the mains voltage; e.g. in the USA is about 120 × 2, or about 170 volts. But that's besides the point. Take the RMS value and an equivalent DC voltage of also 170 volts. Because the impedance of the body is frequency dependent (The body is not a resistive load. That's why we call it an impedance), the current generated by the AC voltage is higher than the DC voltage and (leaving off ventricular fibrillation) will be more dangerous. This is also why 'safe' values for DC are higher than AC.

Of course it is about reacting. Your muscles can not react faster than 0.07 seconds or so. Considering 50 HZ AC, it would cross through zero crossing twice in one period. One period is of time period 0.02 seconds, hence it passes through zero mark every 0.01 seconds. Why I brought that up? Because you wrote "DC can be much more deadly at lower voltages than AC. The main reason is that AC current goes to zero twice per second, while DC is full current at a constant rate." It's a lot more than twice per second for one.

Re:Great firefighters

[PurpleAlien]

Also, arcing: to bridge 1 cm of air with an arc you need 30KV. At that point, the arc is the least of your worries be it AC or DC.

Re:Great firefighters

[sir-gold]

Existing airbag crash sensors could be used to detect the crash. Design it to release some sort of spring-loaded jumper that disconnects the battery.

Re:Great firefighters

[Enigma2175]

Existing airbag crash sensors could be used to detect the crash. Design it to release some sort of spring-loaded jumper that disconnects the battery.

Most cars already have this (any car with an electric fuel pump), generally called an "inertia switch". I saw some evidence that Teslas have this feature as well (some forum posts) but was unable to find anything specific from the company itself in a quick search.

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

It is highly unlikely that the emergency services would have been coursed and trained at this point for 1 in a million type of electric car. The industry needs standards so that the first response units and others can be trained for the "generic" electric car.

Re:Great firefighters

[Rexdude]

I thought the US ran on 110/127 V/60 Hz AC, the rest of the world uses 220/240 V/50 Hz.

Re:Great firefighters

[EETech1]

http://www.pyroswitch.com/
It's an explosive that cuts a copper bus bar in half.
Very cool to test:)

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Are Dutch first responders on the most pathetically tight budgets or something?

In most countries you don't use water at all for chemical or electrical fires and have gloves that will protect against eletricution from a mains electricity line.

This speaks incredibly poorly of Dutch emergency services more than anything else because as the person further up the thread alluded to fear of electricution shouldn't even be a factor for emergency services as they're typically tooled up for that exact scenario regardless.

Re:Great firefighters

[QuadPro]

Indeed they do, and on page 2 of it they say:

Warning: When fire is involved, consider the entire vehicle energized and DO NOT TOUCH any part of the vehicle.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Markings related to the hazardous materials are standardized, so are methods of dealing with them. The threat to the public is substantiated and well studied. Therefore the education of the firefighters is possible, desirable and "budgetable", that is the required amount of resources can be allocated regardless of the politics. Electric cars are not there yet, but hopefully will be soon, or at least before the threat to the public is substantiated via insurance claims.

Re: Great firefighters

[michelcolman]

Actually, that figure is more than 0.01% for Teslas, and more than 0.1% for EVs in general. Expect that proportion to increase drastically in the next few years. If firefighters still don't know how to handle an electric car crash, it's about time they started learning.

Re:Great firefighters

[michelcolman]

Then it was probably disconnected already...

Re:Great firefighters

[michelcolman]

Yep, it does do that automatically, but the system might malfunction and in any case, high speed crashes sometimes create extra electrical connections that weren't there before. They tried to design the car to avoid this as much as possible, but never say never.

Re:Great firefighters

[michelcolman]

Not one in a million, it's actually more than one in 10,000. (1.2 billion cars in the world, well over 120,000 Teslas sold).

And if you count all EVs together, it's more than one in a thousand and growing rapidly.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are going to trow around numbers, make sure the order of magnitude is somewhere close to reality. You are implying there are only 10 or so Tesla cars in existence.

Re:Great firefighters

[deadweight]

USA houses have 120 volt outlets for lights and small appliances and 240 volt outlets for heavy loads like stoves, dryers, and air conditioners.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

I agree that my use of peak voltage was confusing, it was an attempt to oversimplify as with AC sources the re are a number of things that influence the severity of a fault, such as phase to phase vs phase to nuetral or ground, available short circuit contribution, system grounding, etc.

Reaction is not relevent to me because I dont assume a person will react and release theirself in either case.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

Also, arcing: to bridge 1 cm of air with an arc you need 30KV. At that point, the arc is the least of your worries be it AC or DC.

That is to initiate an arc in an open circuit. That will vary of course with air humidity, particluates, etc. But when interrupting a circuit, arcing continues for a much greater distance before it is extinquished. That distance is significantly higher in a DC circuit.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

What a ridiculously shortsighted comment. Sooner than you realize a large majority of the vehicles on the road will be electric. They all have the same hazards.

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that AC voltage ratings are expressed in volts RMS. 600VAC is actually 848V pk-pk. The 600VAC number is the equivalent heating produced if the voltage was DC. So the resistive heating factor between 600VDC and 600VAC is exactly the same, because the higher peak voltage on the AC circuit makes up for the times when the voltage is near zero.
AC also doesn't go to zero twice per second. It goes to zero 100 or 120 times per second.
You knoweth not what you speak about.

Re:Great firefighters

[jeremyp]

It is not a fact. RMS can be calculated from the peak value of the mains voltage; e.g. in the USA is about 120 × 2, or about 170 volts.

This is incorrect. The 120V AC quoted for US domestic power supplies is the RMS voltage. The peak voltage can be calculated by multiplying that by the square root of 2. i.e. The peaks are about +170 and -170 volts. The equivalent DC voltage for the US mains (in power delivery) is 120V.

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

The US uses a single split phase 240V 60Hz residential system. 120V is the most common type of outlet in the US, but 240V is also available in all houses and is commonly used for stoves, water heaters and air conditioners/heaters.

Re:Great firefighters

[necro81]

Actually, the construction of the Tesla battery pack is designed with per-cell fusing. One of the patents that Tesla made available describes how each Li-Ion cell in the pack is wire-bonded to the bus bars. In a high acceleration crash, some of those internal wire bonds will break. (The wire bonds primarily act as conventional electrical fuses, breaking in the event of overcurrent.) Really you only need one bond in each series string to break in order to open-circuit the battery.

Re:Great firefighters

[Kkloe]

no it speaks only that they were prepared for a car crash, I doubt that in any country any firefighter will pack with them things for chemical or electrical fires unless they know about it beforehand, atleast full body suits, they might be able to handle small incidents but this was not considered a small incident

Re: Great firefighters

[Opportunist]

Because it does affect me, you and everyone in a rather sizable area when a fuel truck loses its content into the surrounding area. Possibly tons of contaminated soil for years and decades to come that have to be removed and deposited safely.

A Tesla burning means 5 people affected. Tops. For a few minutes. Tops. After that, it depends on whether you want an open coffin or whether it's ok to let them burn to a crisp.

Re:Great firefighters

[Opportunist]

Make sure it's on a dead man's switch. Last thing you'd want is the power not being cut due to a power failure.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to pay firefighters to be trained in a car that .000001% of the populace has.

NOMENCLATURE NAZI: ADD LEADING ZEROS TO DECIMALS. ALWAYS.

This says maybe.

This is a nice article. I still disagree with him. And the problem here isn't the 6 zeros followed by a one: what if if the value was .1000001 rather than .0000001? Or was that 1.00001?

It's easy to figure out the latter is "wrong" because we don't do leading zeros. But the "leading 1"?

The leading decimal point is easy to miss. Make it easier to see with a leading 0.

Oh, and add commas to every 3 digits in a long (over 3 digits) string, too.

1324536 or 132456? Are they the same? Don't think about it, notice on the fly?

Or is 1,324,536 the same as 132,456? You can notice they're different even while still parsing the statement.

Re:Great firefighters

[PurpleAlien]

I meant that taking the 120V RMS value and multiplying it by sqrt(2) gives you the peak value of 170V. Slashdot ate the sqrt, and yes, that sentence could have been more clearly stated...

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

They get hazmat training because it is the politically expedient thing to do. When a train derailment kills several people, it no longer matters that 3 million train cars of oil move safely across the railroads every year.

Re:Great firefighters

[thegarbz]

Yes.

I know you didn't mention removing someone from a circuit but it's actually a key part of how DC kills. Burns and blood clots depend on the time of contact. That is what makes DC quite dangerous, the ability to be in contact with the live circuit for longer.

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless they were taking an Uber there they should have had that equipment. All of that stuff lives on the truck, it's not like they start loading or unloading stuff when they get a dispatch. If they sent a technical rescue squad (as it was reported as a car crash), they would have had all that and more.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

In hindsight I'd have worded it differently. Either can kill you, so neither is really notably safer, and I've never seen any stats that compare the outcomes of incidences of AC vs DC. AC events are certainly much more common due to the much greater number of potential exposure points. Thanks for keeping me straight.

When you think about it, what is more interesting is the systemic differences. AC presents the phase to ground danger that makes approaching an energized component more dangerous. With DC its harder to become part of the circuit, but if you do its more likely from touching two points with opposite hands or arms, sending the current across your upper body. With AC its likely a path from an arm down through your legs. Then, of course, you may get some help from resistivity of your shoes. In a DC circuit, you have the internal resistance of the battery itself that can limit current. The good thing about AC ground faults is they can be easily detected to open a breaker. If you become part of a DC circuit, it may not be detected as a overcurrent, as current is expected through that path. It is only cleared if it is excessive. On the other hand, lower voltage DC breakers sometimes clear faster when triggered as they don't hold for a zero current break.

Re: Great firefighters

[Coren22]

Or for that matter the risk from 10-20 gallons of extremely flammable gasoline.

Re:Great firefighters

[lucien86]

Yes but its relatively easy to shut mains down in an emergency. If you have no other method just spray water into the consumer unit and the short circuit will immediately blow the main house fuse or local grid breaker. The problem with battery fires is that there is no fuse that can stop a short circuit inside a battery.

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Lithium batteries don't contain lithium metal in an elemental form, and the recommended course of action for a fire in one is to dump large quantities of water on it.

Re:Great firefighters

[zenith1111]

Next you get your meter serviced or calibrated have a look at how its setup. Most apartments have 400V ph-ph (not 415V that's Australia) running through them with each apartment hooked to an alternate phase.

I do know how my house is setup and it's Phase+Neutral+Ground. It sounds like you are talking about split-phase, with Phase1+Neutral+Phase2, which I have never seen in person in Europe (talking about the electric grid, not generators and DC-AC inverters). Where do you live?

Also 120VDC doesn't hurt. Take it from experience.

I won't take it from your "experience", because I know 120VDC can kill you, unless you are an automaton that can control skin moisture or tearproof skin.

Should you approach these cars with care? Yes, they can kill you. But my point is your assertion that these cars are far more dangerous wasn't right.

How is your point, that 120VDC "doesn't hurt", makes an argument for "a 375VDC system is not dangerous when the power supply might have been damaged and can catch fire without prior notice"?

Re:Great firefighters

[DarkVader]

The standard for car fires is water. Gasoline can be extinguished with water, you just have to use enough of it.

Water-based foam is also commonly used.

But you're not going to see anything more exotic than that used for most car fires. Even for a burning VW magnesium engine block, the standard is spraying water while the block burns itself out.

Frist to come must shut power down

[rwiggers]

Ops, batt power don't shut down...
Some new training and updated procedures will be needed...

Re:Frist to come must shut power down

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. Cells strewn all over in various states and unknown connections/shorts is sketchy, for sure.

Re:Frist to come must shut power down

[Frobnicator]

They know what to do with modern vehicles. I understand the rush to be a first poster rather than actually reading the article.

If you had actually read the article you would have seen:

... since firefighters were certain the victim had died immediately after the crash, it did not make sense for rescue workers to take unneeded risks in recovering his body.

Re:Frist to come must shut power down

[rwiggers]

"We know a lot about electric cars, but there are always going to be cases where something unexpected happens," Boer said. "There are going to be educational moments."

They may have procedures in place, but are still uncertain. Also certainly not that many accidents with electric cars take place yet for the procedures to be really known by heart.

Therefore some new training and updated procedures will be needed...

Re:Frist to come must shut power down

[cyn1c77]

I understand the rush to be a first poster rather than actually reading the article.

I don't!

It exemplifies everything depressing about the internet! It was (1) WRONG, (2) snarky, and (3) got modded up as insightful by others who also didn't read the article! The only thing missing is the fact that the poster wasn't anonymous.

Once again!

[Anonymous Coward]

Volvo 240s had a lower death rate by number and miles driven during its production years than any other can on the road, including Tesla.

Sorry to burn you, fanboys, but I know someone is going to start their mouths about how Teslas are the safest cars ever built but this is an out and out lie.

Re: Once again!

[Type44Q]

Volvo 240s had a lower death rate by number and miles driven during its production years than any other can on the road, including Tesla.

I have as much respect for those cars as anybody but quit making shit up.

Re:Once again!

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair most Tesla vehicles are performance/sports vehicles, not sedan/station wagons. No one in their right mind would try to do an apples to apples comparison of the accidents/deaths of a Range Rover to a Ferrari 599.

Re:Once again!

[AK Marc]

That grannies and 30 in a 70 zone drivers flocked to Volvo doesn't mean the car were safer. It just reflected the types of drivers drawn to them. Corvettes were safer than Volvos, they just were also idiot magnets.

Re: Once again!

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

In any case, Tesla will gain the ultimate advantage with full robot drive (assuming they get it right.) The need for the best crumple zones and whatnot plummets if you don't get into accidents in the first place, so Volvo's advantage in that will disappear.

Of course Volvo may even have it first.

Re:Once again!

[F.Ultra]

Maybe that where the case in the US, over here in Europe (and the Nordics in particular) the Volvo 240 sold like crazy.

Re: Once again!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is your user name misspelled?

Re: Once again!

[Anonymous Coward]

Teslas are the safest cars ever built regardless of what the haters say. I just wanted to get this out there since I knew someone would come try and shit on our parade.

Re:Once again!

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a piece of shit car, ugly, uncomfortable, slow, and no fun at all to drive.

Re:Once again!

[Anonymous Coward]

In 1998, my mother-in-law was driving her 240 when she got hit dead-square head-on by a guy going 60 mph. She was unhurt, the other's guy car was tin foil, and her volvo was repaired and is still running.

that's TOUGH.

Re: Once again!

[Anonymous Coward]

Then why does it score lower than many other cars in Euro NCAP?

Re:Once again!

[Opportunist]

And how many were killed by them?

I have seen some crash tests involving cars and those tanks disguised as cars called Volvos. It was usually not very pretty. The Volvo usually swallowed the other car whole and spat out the crushed cube with as much as a scratch to the bumper.

If I build a car that relies fully on the crumple zone of the other car, I can easily claim that mine is safe.

Re: Once again!

[cwsumner]

Thinking that car autopilots will prevent car crashes, is like thinking that aircraft autopilots will prevent airplane crashes. They don't ! ;-)

Re:Once again!

[Anonymous Coward]

So?

She probably got hit because it was too slow and unmaneuverable to get out of the way. Or because she was such a bad driver that she got on the interstate going the wrong direction, because that's what the horrible drivers who owned those cars did.

How many priuses and leafs crash every day?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those first responders should be ashamed.

Re:How many priuses and leafs crash every day?

[jfdavis668]

My thought exactly. If this was a Prius, would they have been afraid?

Re:How many priuses and leafs crash every day?

[Frobnicator]

From the article:

...since firefighters were certain the victim had died immediately after the crash, it did not make sense for rescue workers to take unneeded risks in recovering his body.

They know exactly how to handle the vehicles in regular situations, and had the victim still had a chance of being alive I'm sure they would have rushed in. Most likely the body was severely mangled. When the victim is clearly dead there is no point in rushing in to rescue a corpse.

Re:How many priuses and leafs crash every day?

[Anonymous Coward]

Priuses are not designed and made by a company run by reckless idiots...

Re:How many priuses and leafs crash every day?

[Opportunist]

There is such a company? Why wasn't it yet bought out?

High Voltage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fire department spokesman Ronald Boer said guidelines for dealing with electric car crashes were well established in the Netherlands. But due to the nature and severity of the wreckage, firefighters could not be certain whether the car might be under high voltage.

They could just carry a voltmeter.

Re: High Voltage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, because all the firefighters are licensed electricians. Give me a break, it's it's a valid concern. You don't see firefighters testing downed power cables for voltage? No they call the power company to confirm power is off. How do you do that with a moving mobile power station?

Re:High Voltage?

[Anonymous Coward]

My grandfather just used a light bulb and a coat hanger.

Re: High Voltage?

[AK Marc]

You just spray water on it with the mist setting all fire hoses have. If the water settling on the battery causes sparks, then it's live and high voltage. If the water puts the fire out, then it's not an issue. Even if it's high voltage, spraying water on it will close the circuit, rendering the surrounding area safe. Water is the appropriate response for a variety of reasons.

Re:High Voltage?

[TroII]

Unfortunately we still have to do it that way in Kansas, there are only 3 abortion clinics in the whole state.

Re: High Voltage?

[Anonymous Coward]

What does that have to do with requiring fire crews to address electrecution with a voltmeter?

Re: High Voltage?

[AK Marc]

They have other ways to deal with electrical threats, other than using a voltmeter. Do you not understand the basics of electricity?

Re:High Voltage?

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel bad for having laughed.

Re: High Voltage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you?

Re: High Voltage?

[AK Marc]

Yeah, it follows the shortest path and all paths at the same time, so short out an electrical fire with water, and you put out the electrical fire and secondary fire at the same time. The reason you don't use water on electric is that if you turn a fire hose on a burning electric train, you'll kill the firemen holding the hose.

People get confused over the differences, and make rules of thumb that are simply wrong.

Re: High Voltage?

[Anonymous Coward]

"and make rules of thumb that are simply wrong."
Including one that makes water sound like it is as good a conductor as metal. It isn't. If it was, how would outdoor high voltage distribution systems work in the rain?

How do electricians work on big power lines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just give them a big pair of rubber gloves and a suit!

Re:How do electricians work on big power lines?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do electricians work on big power lines?
I would imagine that the power company turns the (AC in most cases) power off, first.

The Tesla has a 350 VDC battery supply - that would make give you one hell of a jolt and, being DC, would likely kill you.

Re:How do electricians work on big power lines?

[guruevi]

Not necessarily, they have special equipment that allows them to handle things like that without grounding themselves. I used to know a guy that worked those lines, they'd have to climb the ladder and have lunch in the middle of a tower. Same goes for gas lines, they actually only work on pressurized lines because otherwise a gas/air mixture could explode whereas gas by itself doesn't.

Re:How do electricians work on big power lines?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do electricians work on big power lines?
I would imagine that the power company turns the (AC in most cases) power off, first.

I saw something about that on The History Channel once. They were hovering in a helicopter near the lines (not sure if AC or HVDC), and first thing they do is to connect some sort of rod to one of the wires, making themselves, helicopter and all, part of the circuit.

Re:How do electricians work on big power lines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever seen a line technician prepare for dealing with high voltages? They have inner and outer gloves, specialized cloths/tools, etc. There is a demonstration on Youtube where they put a pin sized hole in the finger of a glove and put it on the end of a pole to touch a line from a safe distance and it arcs a few feet before the circuit is finally broken. However that is probably an extreme example, I doubt the voltages of a Tesla vehicle get anywhere near that high . But simply putting on a pair of rubber gloves isn't a foolproof method of preventing electrocution. Maybe EVs need a relay that cuts the high voltage lines in the event of an accident (if they don't already do this) kind of like the impact sensor in most modern cars that shut down the fuel pump, also some kind of visual/auditory notice that this has been done (taillights flashed in a certain way, slight horn beep every few minutes, etc)

Re:How do electricians work on big power lines?

[Dare nMc]

You talking much higher voltages than this. 600Volts to 1.35 Kvolts is the medium voltage. Anything below 600 doesn't require special certifications to be around. Those below 600 volts you can touch the insulation on hot wires without risk of shock (assuming no nicks...) Above 600 you start having to use the special poles to check if they are hot. it is more in the 25 kV plus stuff your talking about, where you can get arc flashes that kill you while still several feet of air.

Re:How do electricians work on big power lines?

[DarkVader]

Yeah. They do their best to never cut the power on those circuits. If the towers are still standing, chances are good that the circuit is hot.

just the facts

[Anonymous Coward]

Tesla said it was "working with the authorities to manufacture the facts of the incident"

Re:just the facts

[glenebob]

Witnesses say he was going too fast. "He was just flying", noted one person.

Re:just the facts

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, why doesn't Tesla offer the "flying" option in the United States?

Re:just the facts

[__aaclcg7560]

The Europeans get bitchy if they don't get some of the cool stuff first.

Re:just the facts

[Smidge204]

A Flying Dutchman? I thought this was a car crash, not a shipwreck...

=Smidge=

Re:just the facts

[Anonymous Coward]

A retard bottom signer? I thought this was 2016, not a 1980s BBS...

Re:just the facts

[zlives]

lol ok at least made me smile old as i am.

Re:just the facts

[zlives]

you have to unlock the option after catching all the Pokémon

Re:just the facts

[Anonymous Coward]

A Frying Dutchman?

FTFY

Re:just the facts

[Anonymous Coward]

How about Lost Dutchman?

Re:just the facts

[Opportunist]

Tesla was informed that the TSA would have to be involved and decided it ain't worth the hassle.

Not just Tesla

[PPH]

But wouldn't there be an electrocution risk with any EV or hybrid?

Re:Not just Tesla

[Firethorn]

Prius: 288V
Tesla: 375V

I wouldn't rate the Tesla as significantly more likely to kill you, but in a near-worst case scenario Tesla's battery has additional voltage to kill you with, and even more amps to make sure you're well cooked. ~85 kWh vs 4.4 kWh.

Re:Not just Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Other EVs and hybrids are built by people who know what they're doing.

Re:Not just Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but this thing is a deathtrap.

van der Decken

[Anonymous Coward]

The Frying Dutchman as it were.

Re:van der Decken

[Anonymous Coward]

Oooh, I see what you did there.

And LOL'd.

TFA

[b0bby]

TFA says that since they had already determined that the driver was dead, they were extra cautious. They do have protocols for dealing with electric cars, and would doubtless have acted quicker if there had been a chance to save the driver. As it was, they waited for an expert to come and give it a once over, which seems prudent.

Re:TFA

[Mr D from 63]

Oh quit being rational and thinking. A good Slashdotter will over-react, blame the firemen for being stupid, and make assumptions about training and such based on the tone of an article writer's misleading headline. No matter that the firemen had no reason to hurry, they should have rushed in there and started doing something to the car immediately. Surely their training didn't say anything about stopping and thinking if you see something unusual. Firemen hate Tesla's and now we have proof.

Re:TFA

[blindseer]

Agreed. They had determined the sole occupant was dead and so there was no point in further risk of life in dealing with the wreckage.

How is this even news? Is it because it is an electric car? We've had electric cars before. If one is to include things like electric forklifts then I imagine similar situations have come up many times before. Is it news because it is a Tesla? If so then is this supposed to make them look bad? Perhaps someone's bias is showing.

If this had been a wreck in water then I imagine a recovery would take just as long. A crash in water also is unlikely to result in survivors, regardless of the power plant that powers the vehicle. If there were live occupants, such as if one had just witnessed the crash, then a lot of safety protocols go out the window.

The guy is dead. Take your time to clean up the mess and do it right. Just don't take too long as there is a social need to have respect for the dead.

News reporting creates cognitive biases

[l2718]

We have a fundamental problem: our brains tend to confuse the availability and prevalence of information about something with the prevalence of the underlying event.

Here, the news is reporting on every serious Tesla crash, creating the false impression that these are dangerous cars -- we aren't seeing a report on every Corolla crash, say.

I think the same bias plays into current panic over child abductions, which is distorting evaluation of common parenting strategies like letting kids play by themselves: it's not that abductions today are more common in the past, but that today's media is much better equipped to discover and wildly and rapidly disseminate information about them.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[ytene]

Agreed. I guess this is the downside of being a pioneer of electric cars - a bit like SpaceX's recent explosion during static testing prompted a bunch of armchair experts to try and tell SpaceX how to prepare for launches: everyone's a critic.

But think back to circa 2000, when Ford Explorers started seeing issues with Firestone tyres... That was estimated to have caused "over 250 deaths and 3,000 serious injuries" [wikipedia] - and yes, when those numbers started to rack up, there were stories in the press. But for the longest time the press treated those events as "just another vehicle incident".

It does bother me that articles don't put some context or even validated statistics against these articles. Anything for the headline - "never let the facts get in the way of a good story..."

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[Anonymous Coward]

When part of your marketing strategy is "Our cars scored over 5 stars on crash tests" and "autopilot is a better driver than any human", I would say reporting on every fatality is fair. Especially when there are so few of them out there.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[Etcetera]

We have a fundamental problem: our brains tend to confuse the availability and prevalence of information about something with the prevalence of the underlying event.

Here, the news is reporting on every serious Tesla crash, creating the false impression that these are dangerous cars -- we aren't seeing a report on every Corolla crash, say.

I think the same bias plays into current panic over child abductions, which is distorting evaluation of common parenting strategies like letting kids play by themselves: it's not that abductions today are more common in the past, but that today's media is much better equipped to discover and wildly and rapidly disseminate information about them.

This goes doubly for gun violence (generally), mass shootings (specifically), and police shootings (aka, #BLM).

Most of the stats haven't changed much, and several have actually decreased. Media availability makes everything seem fresh and dynamic, with (IMHO) serious societal effects manifesting as a result.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[Firethorn]

Here, the news is reporting on every serious Tesla crash, creating the false impression that these are dangerous cars -- we aren't seeing a report on every Corolla crash, say.

Indeed. For most car brands we'd be looking at a fatal crash story daily - not quarterly or less as with Tesla, usually with a crash so extreme it'd be newsworthy anyways.

"Crash was so violent that it ripped the car in half and lodged the rear end a story up between a church and an office building". Made all the more newsworthy that the driver managed to be 'live' enough to make it to surgery, even if he subsequently died. This was for the first fatal Tesla crash I read about.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[pezpunk]

so few? there's over 100,000 total Teslas out there.

also, no, reporting on every crash is not fair. the claim is that autopilot is better than a human, not that autopilot is infallible. and that Teslas are safer than other cars, not that Teslas are indestructible. fair reporting would be reporting on the statistics, not individual Tesla incidents (while ignoring all other brand of cars' fatal accidents).

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[amRadioHed]

Sure, as long as you report on every fatality involving the cars they claim they are safer than too.

Re: News reporting creates cognitive biases

[Anonymous Coward]

There are probably more Teslas than Corollas in the Netherlands.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[fluffernutter]

Being better on average than a human doesn't excuse it from killing people in mistakes it might make today.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[UnderCoverPenguin]

so few? there's over 100,000 total Teslas out there

That is few. For a comparison, for example, GM makes more than 100,000 Sierra/Silverado pickup trucks per year. Then add in the SUVs (Tahoe/etc) based on the same platform and that's at least 200,000 per year. Tesla's 100,000+ vehicles are its total production over several years.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[drinkypoo]

That is few. For a comparison, for example, GM makes more than 100,000 Sierra/Silverado pickup trucks per year. Then add in the SUVs (Tahoe/etc) based on the same platform and that's at least 200,000 per year. Tesla's 100,000+ vehicles are its total production over several years.

While it's few, even the major automakers have made plenty of cars which sold less over their total lifetime than the model S, a handful which sold less than the X, and even some which sold less than the Roadster. Most of them are still on the road, too.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not quite sure why you're shoehorning SpaceX in there - they genuinely have a shit record.

Tesla, otoh, is targetted for the same reason Apple is targetted: celebrities that maintain centre stage also have centre spreads detailing every time they slip. Other electric and hybrid vehicles carry on being bought and sold and maintaining a decent-but-not-perfect safety record and nobody cares, because nobody tried to big them up otherwise.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[PixelPusher1532]

GM makes more than 100,000 Sierra/Silverado pickup trucks per year

Your numbers are quite low. Acording to wiki, 2015 sales for Sierra/Silverado were 824,683, just in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[ArylAkamov]

My 1970s shitbox must be safe, I've never seen any news stories about people dying in it!

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no doubt this news story was "Imported from Detroit"
I have never heard of or even seen on TV a gasoline powered vehicle that explodes into flames, oh wait isnt that every action movie or tv series? Regardless somebody died here so I would hope it gets the attention of the NTSB if it was in fact a vehicle issue.

My gut tells me that it was a slow news day for Donald and Hillary and the press had to put lipstick on a pig!

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[michelcolman]

Also, AFAIK, there is no indication that autopilot was engaged, quite the contrary. From the pictures this looks like a very high speed crash, probably well above the autopilot speed limit. You can't set the autopilot to drive more than 10 km/h above the speed limit which I would guess at that location would probably be 80 km/h.

It looks like it was being driven manually at a much higher speed and the crash would not have been survivable in any car.

bizn4tch

[Anonymous Coward]

40,000 workstations t*hough I have never to have Dto decide and reports and

Electrocution wasn't the reason

[guruevi]

The reason was because the car was engulfed in flames and the occupant was already dead. It's not like they didn't extinguish the fire or let the occupant die. You can use large amounts of water to extinguish Lithium battery fires (removing both heat and oxygen) and these batteries are dry, not pure liquid lithium. This would be similar for a gas powered car if the gas tank is engulfed, fire fighters won't risk recovering corpses or property if there is a substantial risk of an explosion.

Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason

[sjames]

Exactly this. The relevant facts are: A man crashed a car into a tree and died. Since he was already dead and no other human life was at risk, firefighters took no unnecessary risks as they managed the fire. The rest was just a bunch of blather to try to turn an all too common everyday event into a story.

Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use large amounts of water to extinguish Lithium battery fires (removing both heat and oxygen)
Except the Burning Lithium will decompose the water and get more oxygen. It will Burn underwater. And on contact with air.

pure liquid lithium???? It is a metal, and solid at Room Temperature. It is not a liquid till 357F

Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use large amounts of water to extinguish Lithium battery fires (removing both heat and oxygen) and these batteries are dry, not pure liquid lithium.

Yeah, about that statement. Yeah, I'm going to need a citation on this one. Mkay?

Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Correction: Lithium is not liquid under standard conditions.

Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason

[pD-brane]

According to this article high voltage was the reason.

Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason

[guruevi]

First responder manual on EV. Large amounts meaning what comes out of a fire hose, not a bucket. You want to cool the device and dilute any chemicals.

Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason

[Mr D from 63]

It actually could have been an interesting article that talked about the procedures firefighters use in these situations. Maybe some people could have been educated on little things they are trained on, such as 'if you see something that doesn't look safe, don't take chances if there is no need to." In other words, people might learn it is not such a bad thing for firefighters stop and think when facing situations that have even a remote chance of being dangerous.

Re: Electrocution wasn't the reason

[Anonymous Coward]

But... Click bait... Slashdot

Tesla Battery Packs for Buildings

[Roger W Moore]

For larger buildings, the first thing they'll do is shut off the power.

Just wait until they start installing the Tesla battery packs designed for buildings. As batteries become more and more efficient and longer lived they are going to start appearing in more and more locations. Fire crews clearly need to have the training to deal with them otherwise they will not be able to do their job safely and effectively.

Re:Tesla Battery Packs for Buildings

[Firethorn]

As batteries become more and more efficient and longer lived they are going to start appearing in more and more locations.

I've had to deal when designing a solar system for my house, or even putting in a generator. There's a switch on the side of my house that they can use to shut all of that off, and for something like the Tesla battery, I can see a "big red button" being required at the service entrance that, if pushed, deactivates a relay keeping the power connected.

Re:Tesla Battery Packs for Buildings

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd imagine that systems connected to the grid would shutdown all power when mains power is cut like existing solar does.

But your point stands when not connected to the grid.

Re:Tesla Battery Packs for Buildings

[swb]

If large batteries become cheap enough and powerful enough to make sense in houses, I wouldn't be surprised to see a building code change that requires them to be encased in some kind of fire-resistant box and/or have a thermal switch that shuts them off in the event of a fire.

Re:Tesla Battery Packs for Buildings

[wisnoskij]

Which does not solve one of the main issues. You still have a hundred pounds of stuff in your basement with the energy density of dynamite. There is no way to make that safe within unknown extreme environments like a building fire.

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Thud457]

I think you're all missing the point here:
Tesla's KILLER ROBOTS 2 , Humanity 0

Re:WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Calydor]

Wait, are you saying humans have destroyed NO Tesla cars yet?!

Who did they hire to build them, NOKIA?!

Re:WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[future assassin]

I just Shatnered my pants. Mod the parent up!

Re:WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, are you saying humans have destroyed NO Tesla cars yet?!

Who did they hire to build them, NOKIA?!

There have been numerous wrecks with Tesla vehicles, some of which have been resold under salvage titles, so it's not quite that one-sided.

Re:WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Anonymous Coward]

How many Fords, GMs, Chryslers, Toyotas, BMWs, etc, have been involved in fatal accidents over the same period of time? If an electric powertrain was the reason Tesla made the news, then where are the statistics for Nissan Leaf deaths over the same period?

The only things that make Tesla crashes newsworthy is that they have a more advanced AI, and that they are disrupting the dealership model. Somebody has been pushing hard to cast Tesla in a negative light.

Re:WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the point is actually "For all you astronaut wannabees, adrenaline junkies and russian-roulette addicts, there's another toy for you, with roughly the same level ot risk - the Tesla car!"

Re:WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. No reason to think that running off the road and hitting a tree was caused by the car; morelikely a sleepy driver or just not paying attention.

Re:WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Coren22]

Yup, roughly the same level of risk of any other car on the road. In fact, it has less risk than 90% of the cars on the road, but let's not pick nits.

Useless firefighters.

[Khyber]

You were afraid of electrocution? Uhh, excuse me, if you were afraid of electrocution, then odds are you weren't wearing the basic PPE required for fighting fires - insulated gloves, boots, jacket, and pants. These are provided by every freaking modern fire-fighting department in any first-world country. A good pair of leather gloves with a rubber lining can handle around 1,000 volts. The Tesla battery pack is like 375 volts. Their protective clothing should also be arc-flash rated as well, so over 1,000 volts with ease.

Those 'firemen' should probably go back to school, either to better understand their PPE or to learn how to use their brains and balls when emergencies are happening.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[BradleyUffner]

There was nothing to save. The driver was dead, the fire could be contained from a safe distance. What could be gained by taking the, admittedly small, risk?

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Khyber]

They're still supposed to TRY. How did they know he wasn't just unconscious or in a coma from the crash?

Re:Useless firefighters.

[baker_tony]

You know what I hate? Useless fuks (who would run crying to mummy if they saw what those firemen saw) commenting on fire fighters from their armchair without knowing all the facts and having no real idea what unfolded or why.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Mr D from 63]

How did they know he wasn't just unconscious or in a coma from the crash?

I think firefighters are probably some of the most qualified persons to make that call. Sometimes its quite obvious when a person is dead. You can assume this was not one of those situations, but there is no information available to support that assumption.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Anonymous Coward]

They probably know enough biology to understand when to call an ambulance and when to call crime scene cleaners.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[DarkVader]

There are some obvious signs that are sufficient. For example, head detached from body is generally a pretty good one, as is brain matter splattered. They don't specify how they knew, but it is sometimes possible to definitively diagnose death from a distance.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[rch7]

What are you talking about. Water is conductive, and firefighter clothes are not hermetic when they respond to simple accidents like this. Firefighters do get electric shock sometimes, although it isn't necessary as more often electricity travels to ground IF water reaches ground first.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Anonymous Coward]

They're still supposed to TRY. How did they know he wasn't just unconscious or in a coma from the crash?

Well, actually, they weren't sure, so they shot him twice, which was actually a favor, since as we all know, socialized medicine is a death sentence anyway.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Anonymous Coward]

They're still supposed to TRY. How did they know he wasn't just unconscious or in a coma from the crash?

It's quite possible to be very sure a body is dead from a distance. I can imagine a number of obviously fatal bodily injuries happening in a high speed automobile accident. I can also imagine the rescue crews making a close inspection of the victim before electing to wait a bit before approaching with the necessary tools to cut and pry a corpse out of a mangled vehicle. It's not like obvious fatal head injuries never happen in high speed accidents.

One of the first rules of First Aid is "Don't become a victim yourself". It's NOT usually helpful to rush in only to up the body count by adding yours because you didn't take time to fully appreciate the situation. Plus, if you know a victim is dead, there is absolutely NO reason to take any risks recovering them. Take your time and don't create any more victims.

These guys (and gals) are TRAINED to rush in, knowingly risking their lives to rescue the living and do so regularly. If they say it's not worth the risk, I'm willing to accept their perspective.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are lots of ways to die in a car crash that would make it pretty obvious.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Khyber]

Uh, newsflash, metal/electrical fires get handled with class D extinguishing dry material. Most every truck typically carries something sufficient.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Khyber]

I was a volunteer firefighter in Memphis. I've seen way more shit than those peacenik hippies across the pond dare imagine.

You know what I hate? Fags like you speaking when you know nothing about the person you're trying to denigrate.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[baker_tony]

You know what I also hate? People who use the word "fag" a lot to try and cover up their own homosexual tendencies. Just come out of the closet already.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Anonymous Coward]

As stated in the article, the man was already dead when the firefighters arrived on the scene. Since the state of the car was not a 100% clear to the firefighters, they did not take any unnecessary risks.

But I'm sure you read the article yourself, came to the same conclusion, and regardlessly elected to post this baseless attack. Why all the hate, man?

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, you'd be surprised how many fire departments don't have the required equipment to deal with anything electrical. Even in California where they have quite a large budget, a lot of fire fighters are still lacking PPE gear for anything electrical and are lacking training in dealing with anything electrical (Especially Solar Panels, where now they're allowing 1000 Volts, so now you're 1kV PPE gear is useless). Why? Because they don't have anyone remotely qualified to teach them about how to deal with this.

There have already been many deaths of firefighters due to electrocution and a lot of fire fighters around the world hear about it quite quickly. Because of that, a lot of them are very cautious about approaching anything electrical now. A lot fire departments in California have adopted a "Let it Burn" policy for anyone that has solar panels. It's going to take quite a while for firefighters to understand what to do in this situation.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Anonymous Coward]

They're still supposed to TRY. How did they know he wasn't just unconscious or in a coma from the crash?

His head was separated from his body - by many metres.

The last thing that went through the drivers mind was the windscreen.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Anonymous Coward]

Cmon now, he just wants to bum a fag!

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny part is Khyber (Alex) is engaged to another guy.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet another example of Alex trying to make himself sound more experienced and intelligent than he really is. So sad, really...

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Khyber]

"Just come out of the closet already."

Come out of your cave, pretty much everyone here knows I'm gay, married, and have held this relationship longer than you've likely held one, statistically speaking.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[baker_tony]

At yet you use "fag" as a hate word. You need help.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[rch7]

You have no chance to extinguish 1000-1300 pound Li-Ion battery with some truck extinguisher. In this particular case only parts of the battery were thrown away and on fire, but firefighters failed to extinguish them and had to cover them with sand or soil.

photo's

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.112apeldoorn.nl/page/Nieuwsdetail/35830/dodelijk-ongeval-met-tesla-in-baarn

Re:photo's

[Beezlebub33]

I don't even see a car. I see car-related bits, and a wheel. Pretty area though. Nice place to drive through.

Re:photo's

[samwichse]

Apparently even nicer place to drive through at 155km/h

All you can eat my ass!

[Joe_Dragon]

That place says all you can eat but they kick people out when they think they had to much.

Re:All you can eat my ass!

[Anonymous Coward]

You have used the improper tense. Presumably, your native language is English, so i would expect you to know the proper form of a simple sentence. when they think they have had too much. Just as glaring is using "to" rather than too.
You're a gem!

Re:All you can eat my ass!

[Joe_Dragon]

This is an restaurant review not a class room.

FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

You "Agree" yet had to add a "but". Can we just for once call a Spade a Spade instead of trying to excuse shitty behavior and blame victims? I just happened to look at on average there are 2-3 car fatalities a day in the Netherlands. Yet this one makes the "news" because it suits propaganda purposes.

Re:FFS

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, but not all car crashes are the same.

People are idiots

[Anonymous Coward]

I am pretty sure those batteries could produce a pretty good current draw if shorted. Doesn't matter if DC or AC it's the current that kills you. Mix that with water and a car both good conductors and I understand the fire personnel being cautious. I've seen plenty of small notebook batteries produce a very rapid burn when punctured. I would bet most fire departments have little training yet on EV batteries.

Re:People are idiots

[Khyber]

"I would bet most fire departments have little training yet on EV batteries."

You lose that bet. Firefighters are trained to handle metal fires like sodium and lithium. Battery or raw element makes zero difference, their training should've had them able to handle that fire. Protip: Class D fire extinguisher (I was a volunteer firefighter.)

why

[pezpunk]

why is this news? every type of car on the road has fatal collisions every day. fearmongering about electric cars is dumb.

Re:why

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it is. I can find a dozen stories about car accidents, car fires, or whatever.

Tesla just happens to be very popular here, for various reasons, so a story about it made it, while the story about Joe's Chevy didn't. Now if this was Reddit, it'd be another story.

But if the Batmobile loses a wheel, I fully expect to see a story about it here.

Re:why

[cwsumner]

Because other car companies, and their investors, are afraid of Tesla taking their business over.
And because even the respected news sevices are now devolved to "clickbait", no better than the grocery store "alians in my lunch" papers.

Re:why

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially considering that he was going 155 km/h where the speed limit is 80 km/h.

due to fears they could be electrocuted

[frovingslosh]

Not sure what the story here is, that some rich Dutch guy died in a car crash or that Dutch Firefighters are ignorant of electricity. Sure, the car has batteries, but all of the laws of science still apply. The voltage is still lower than it is in the homes they fight fires in, and you don't get electrocuted by touching one exposed contact, particularly if you're wearing thick rubber boots.

Re:due to fears they could be electrocuted

[sir-gold]

The story is that a Tesla was involved, that's it.

Welcome to tesladot.org: News for Telsa nerds, stuff that matters (if you are into Tesla)

Re:due to fears they could be electrocuted

[lucien86]

Wrong. The Tesla X uses a 400 V DC battery - touching any exposed wire in the HV system can be instantly lethal. That's directly from the Tesla first responders safety manual.

Imagine if they reported every Ford crash

[kangsterizer]

we'd be flooded

And yet...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fords stock doesn't go down each time someone drives an Escort into a minivan.
The stock price thing is all due to market manipulation. It would be illegal, except somehow the regulators (that all work at Goldman a year later) don't see it that way.

Advanced fire fighter training for Tesla Model X

[worldthinker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Lost focus

[Trogre]

A fatal crash of a Tesla Model S in the United States earlier this year knocked the company's shares and raised concerns about whether automated driving technology was being released to consumers safely.

Simple answer: It isn't.

Stop all this automated up-selling bullshit and give me my damn electric car.

Re:Lost focus

[DarkVader]

Using the driver assist technologies isn't mandatory.

But it is a great feature, and can take some of the monotony of driving away. I want more of it.

Yes, driving can be fun. Zipping around the twisty-windies is great. (It's even more fun on two wheels than it is inside four.) It can also be utter boredom.

My electric car still has a gas engine too, but when 300 mile range hits my price point, chances are it won't.

Shocking Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

The car planted itself on a tree. So, I'm pretty sure it's grounded.

So what

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we going to get a news report every time someone gets in a fucking accident? It's a car, people are shitty drivers. The more Tesla's that are out there the more likely they will be involved in an accident, it's not news.

Speeding 100 miles no Auto-pilot against tree

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/26563755/___Autopilot_Tesla_stond_uit___.html

News Update

[lbalbalba]

The driver was going over 155 kilometers per hour (roughly 96 miles per hour) on a road where the maximum speed is 80 kilometers per hour (roughly 49 miles per hour), and the car was not on autopilot. Dutch stroy here, and google translation here.

Breathless, panting stories abound

[samwichse]

I actually saw this headline first:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/w...

ROFL, talk about a load of crap. Even their own story mentions it was unknown at the time of publishing whether the car was in autopilot or not. Of course, it was super effective... the comments are full of crap about how autopilot is a crap feature that is killing people in a car prone to explosive burns.

Meanwhile, actual facts intrude:
http://www.afr.com/technology/...

Car was travelling at 155km/hr and autopilot was not on.

Sam