Dutchman Dies in Tesla Crash; Firefighters Feared Electrocution (reuters.com)

A Dutchman died on Wednesday after his Tesla collided with a tree, according to local authorities, and it took firefighters hours to remove his body from the vehicle due to fears they could be electrocuted. Reuters reports: The cause of the crash on a highway about 40 kilometers east of Amsterdam was not known. Photos of the crash scene published by local media showed the back of the car mostly intact but its front smashed in and parts strewn about. Tesla said it was "working with the authorities to establish the facts of the incident" and would publish its findings as soon as they were available. A spokeswoman said it was not known whether the car was using "autopilot", Tesla's driving assistance technology, at the time of the crash, and that would form part of the investigation. A fatal crash of a Tesla Model S in the United States earlier this year knocked the company's shares and raised concerns about whether automated driving technology was being released to consumers safely.

Comments

Great firefighters

[Dunbal]

It's not like your house or building is hooked up to the power mains when they fight fires there - no risk of electrocution at all. /sarcasm

Re:Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

If they cut the power to an electrical fire, enough water will put the rest out.

A lithium fire is the LAST thing you want to pour water on, on the other hand, so no, it's not like your "house or building" at all.

Re:Great firefighters

[Burdell]

For larger buildings, the first thing they'll do is shut off the power. That's the reason data centers usually have the "big red button"; that is there to make it "safe" for firefighters. The 240VAC main in a typical house (at least in the US) is much less dangerous than the high-voltage DC found in electric cars.

Also, while you can get a short by spraying water across live electrical lines, they are not liable to explode like lithium batteries.

Were they overly cautious? Possibly. Are there legitimate concerns about how to deal with the electric cars? Yes. Should they be handled with better training? Also yes.

Re:Great firefighters

[Tunefix]

Your house can be disconnected from the mains at a safe distance. Disconnecting the batteries in an electric car on fire - not so easy.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

In the event of a house fire the electricity is disconnected as soon as possible from the structure. Either by removing the meter or the utility cuts the lines at the junction box.

Fire fighters rarely go into a building that is still connected to the mains.

Re:Great firefighters

[Dunbal]

Burning gasoline is the last thing you want to pour water on, too. Firefighters usually come prepared for all sorts of fires.

Re:Great firefighters

[retsaMedoC]

Not like Tesla has any guide for First Responders to help in said training efforts. Oh wait, they do. https://www.tesla.com/firstres...

Re:Great firefighters

[PRMan]

You expect Dutchmen to read English? That's ridiculous... ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_in_the_Netherlands

Re:Great firefighters

[suutar]

actually, having seen the guidance Tesla issued to first responders, _small amounts_ of water are the last thing you want. Lots and lots of water to cool it down, on the other hand, is the prescribed method to extinguish Tesla battery fires.

Re:Great firefighters

[AK Marc]

Throwing water on a "lithium fire" isn't an issue. The absolutely worst case is that the battery reacts with the water to create some hydrogen gas, which then burns. Water is an appropriate fire suppression agent for a battery fire.

Re:Great firefighters

[Strider-]

For larger buildings, the first thing they'll do is shut off the power.

The NEC includes what is known as the "6 throw rule." You must be able to shut down the power to a building by throwing no more than 6 switches/breakers on a single panel.

Re:Great firefighters

[ortholattice]

Did you read the guide at all?

Warning: Regardless of the disabling procedure you use, ALWAYS ASSUME THAT ALL HIGH VOLTAGE COMPONENTS ARE ENERGIZED! Cutting, crushing, or touching high voltage components can result in serious injury or death.

I'm guessing reading is hard for you

On p. 14, "Cutting the front trunk first responder loop", it shows how to disable the high voltage. Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire. This shuts down the high voltage system outside of the high voltage battery itself. For extra safety, you cut a section out of it so it won't reconnect accidentally.

IMO they should put this on the first page. But at least it is there.

Re:Great firefighters

[hawguy]

Your house can be disconnected from the mains at a safe distance.
Disconnecting the batteries in an electric car on fire - not so easy.

Unless your house has solar + battery backup. Many have an off-switch for emergency responders (sometimes required by law), but you still need to approach the house to reach it.

Re:Great firefighters

[CanadianMacFan]

From the article: "Photos of the crash scene published by local media showed the back of the car mostly intact but its front smashed in and parts strewn about."

I'm guessing that they probably couldn't see the label or if they could it wasn't near the coiled loop of red wire anymore.

Re: Great firefighters

[sunking2]

I don't want to pay firefighters to be trained in a car that .000001% of the populace has. There is much more beneficial training to be had.

Re: Great firefighters

[Areyoukiddingme]

I don't want to pay firefighters to be trained in a car that .000001% of the populace has. There is much more beneficial training to be had.

And yet all firefighters receive extensive hazmat training, despite cars carrying hazardous materials being .000001% of the population. Even trucks carrying hazardous materials are a tiny fraction of all truck miles driven. They can get the training and you can fucking pay for it.

Re: Great firefighters

[amRadioHed]

How are the risks from a Tesla greater than the risks from hybrid cars which are all over the place?

Re:Great firefighters

[thegarbz]

The 240VAC main in a typical house (at least in the US) is much less dangerous than the high-voltage DC found in electric cars.

What high voltage DC? The Tesla's battery pack is 375V, lower than the 415V ph-ph supplied to pretty much every apartment in the Netherlands, and what is actually used in houses with a high load.

But the idea that AC or DC are more dangerous at these voltages and currents doesn't make sense. Both present very different risks with a DC arc flash being far more dangerous in terms of burns, while AC is far more dangerous to your nervous system.

The only time there's really a difference is at low voltages where the maximum save touch potential is considered 50VAC and 120VDC.

Re:Great firefighters

[GrumpySteen]

First off, there was no fire.

Really? Because the linked article says "Newspaper De Telegraaf reported the car's battery was broken, and part of it caught fire and was difficult to extinguish." which clearly indicates that there was a fire.

Seriously, do they not train rescue workers? If so then why don't they train them to respond to electric and hybrid vehicle crashes so that they know what's safe and what's not? It's their job, they should know what the heck they're doing.

The linked article also says "De Boer said since firefighters were certain the victim had died immediately after the crash, it did not make sense for rescue workers to take unneeded risks in recovering his body." which clearly explains why the firefighters didn't risk their lives even if the chance of electrocution was very small.

Maybe next time you're about to go off on a rant like this, you should take the time to read the linked article before you make yourself look stupid in public.

Re: Great firefighters

[easyTree]

Shhhhj, you're spoiling someone's attempt to push Tesla's stock price down.

Re: Great firefighters

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry I used terms you may not be familiar with. When speaking with an electrician, when he/she says they are going to cut the lines, it means they will be disconnecting the wires using safe procedures. Although with the correct safety equipment you can cut 240V lines while live and have no issues at all.

I was an apprentice electrician for 6 months in my younger days. Before I realized why HVAC guys have major knee problems.

Re:Great firefighters

[rch7]

At least in the US houses have pullable meters, or master switch outside, or option to disconnect electricity at nearby pole. Firefighters do it before spraying water, or call electric company to disconnect electricity.

Burning Li Ion batteries emit highly toxic fumes. I wouldn't even get close. And the certainly start burning if impact is heavy enough to damage them.

Re:Great firefighters

[zenith1111]

What high voltage DC? The Tesla's battery pack is 375V, lower than the 415V ph-ph supplied to pretty much every apartment in the Netherlands

Are you sure? Voltage here in Europe is usually a single 230V phase pretty much everywhere, unless you are running a small factory or have huge power requirements at home, then you will use 3 phases. Maybe you were talking about the 315V peak to peak, but it will still be less than 375V, anyway, the problem is not just the voltage, it's that the voltage is encased in a metal shell, and if that shell looks broken and poking everywhere, you either proceed very carefully or you are ignorant. The same firefighters would also be very careful about a fuel spill, but there are decades of experience dealing with those, electric cars not so much.

Oh, and it doesn't matter how dry my hands are, I would not touch 120VDC.

Re:Great firefighters

[rch7]

Li Ion does not have metallic Lithium. Some batteries do. They are completely different, people confuse them.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

But the idea that AC or DC are more dangerous at these voltages and currents doesn't make sense.

Actually, DC can be much more deadly at lower voltages than AC. The main reason is that AC current goes to zero twice per second, while DC is full current at a constant rate. So a resistive load (a firefighter in the circuit) will fry faster under 600VDC that 600VAC. For this same reason, it is also easier to interrupt an AC current vs a DC current, and why high voltage DC interrupting and switching devices are much more expensive and elaborate than same voltage AC equipment.

Re: Great firefighters

[Zeromous]

Uh the big red button is/used to be to pause a halon dump. There is no big red button in the dc. The switch is on the UPS before the bypass. And that is some scary shit to switch. The last time I switched the bypass manually I did it with a hockey stick (like that would have helped).

Re: Great firefighters

[DarkVader]

Every system I've ever dealt with, the big red button causes a Halon (ok, Ecaro 25 these days) dump. The yellow button is the holdoff button.

In bigger data centers, that big red button also triggers the UPS off circuit.

Re:Great firefighters

[PurpleAlien]

That's a myth, and one that is perpetuated every time this topic comes up. Let's leave aside that your muscles wouldn't be able to react fast enough to make use of the AC current going through zero at 50 or 60 Hz.

The total impedance of the human body is higher for DC and decreases when the frequency increases (illustrated here: http://www.electroboom.com/?p=...). Since the impedance for DC is higher, the severity of electric shock is less than AC. Ventricular fibrillation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventricular_fibrillation) is considered to be the main cause of death by electric shock. The probability of a human suffering from ventricular fibrillation is much higher in the case of AC than DC.

The let-go current is an experimental measure we have of the effect of electricity on humans. The let-go current is the lowest level of current passing through a human subject through an electrode held in the hand that makes the subject unable to open his hand and drop the electrode. As mentioned in the IEC publication 60479 - Effects of current on human beings and livestock (https://webstore.iec.ch/publication/2219), letting go of parts gripped is less difficult in the case of DC.

Re:Great firefighters

[thegarbz]

Voltage here in Europe is usually a single 230V phase pretty much everywhere

Next you get your meter serviced or calibrated have a look at how its setup. Most apartments have 400V ph-ph (not 415V that's Australia) running through them with each apartment hooked to an alternate phase.

This is also what makes it trivially easy for places to hook up 3ph power when required, and there's all sorts of things that needs it. e.g. my next door neighbour had 3ph connections put in as he had a hobby of repairing commercial espresso machines. My old house had 3ph because of the HVAC unit. My friend's house has a 3ph connection because they have 2 ovens in their kitchen. You don't need a massive load to justify 3ph power especially considering most countries have this facility available already at houses in any major city.

Also 120VDC doesn't hurt. Take it from experience. 110VAC does. 240VAC even more so, and doubly so when the shock makes you punch yourself in the face.

Should you approach these cars with care? Yes, they can kill you. But my point is your assertion that these cars are far more dangerous wasn't right.

Re:Great firefighters

[thegarbz]

Please keep reading, and then lookup the standards while you're at it. The fact that the voltage drops to zero has nothing to do with how deadly something is. E.g. you can quite happily direct high frequency very high voltage through your body and the only thing that you have to worry about is burning flesh and potential blood clots. The result doesn't affect your nervous system. 30-100Hz on the other hand is about as deadly as it gets for the body which is exactly why I mentioned the max safe touch potentials.

You also fail to understand how AC is measured. It is always expressed in root-mean-squared values. The voltages are quite literally defined in a way that a 600VDC and 600VAC source would produce identical power through a resistive load. This also has nothing to do with the ability to interrupt AC vs DC which is one of arc extinguishing, or if you want to get fancy, zero-crossing detection.

There are other effects though. It's far harder to rescue someone who's hung up on DC than it is AC. This is again related to how the nervous system works. With DC your muscles clench more tightly than AC for the same voltage. Typical low voltage recovery teaches you that hanging up on AC is easy enough to resolve by grabbing someone under the arm with a crook and pulling. However if working on DC the procedure should be to reef really hard on the wrist and mess up the person's hand. If they live they can thank you after.

Re:Great firefighters

[mjwx]

Did you read the guide at all?

Warning: Regardless of the disabling procedure you use, ALWAYS ASSUME THAT ALL HIGH VOLTAGE COMPONENTS ARE ENERGIZED! Cutting, crushing, or touching high voltage components can result in serious injury or death.

I'm guessing reading is hard for you

On p. 14, "Cutting the front trunk first responder loop", it shows how to disable the high voltage. Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire. This shuts down the high voltage system outside of the high voltage battery itself. For extra safety, you cut a section out of it so it won't reconnect accidentally.

IMO they should put this on the first page. But at least it is there.

I'm more concerned about what it more important than that which occupied 14 pages before this.

Re: Great firefighters

[thegarbz]

50V DC passing through your body is fatal

50VDC is not fatal for 99% of the population based on IEC curves. 50VAC however is the maximum safe touch potential defined in many countries. You're right that with DC your hang-up is stronger, but the physiological effects that kill a person requires significantly higher duration of electrocution than the equivalent AC voltage which can disrupt your nervous system in just a few cycles.

DC kills people via burns and blood clots. AC stops your heart. I too have touched 230V and lived to tell the tale. That's called luck.

Re:Great firefighters

[chihowa]

Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire.

That's a bizarre place to put a "first responder loop". In what percentage of situations would a car require the first responders to cut at the body of the car, but still be able to open the front hood without cutting? In a good fraction of bad collisions, it's the front of the car that is demolished.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

That's a myth, and one that is perpetuated every time this topic comes up. Let's leave aside that your muscles wouldn't be able to react fast enough to make use of the AC current going through zero at 50 or 60 Hz.

No, it is a fact. That is why you have an RMS current value with AC vs DC. And as far as reacting, is not about reaction speed, not sure why you brought that up. So, as I said, there will be more current, and therefore more energy dissipated in the DC case. I said the firefighter would fry faster with DC, that is the case.

I never said anything about gripping or letting go. Again, not sure why you brought that up. However, if the person did break the circuit, there would be less arcing in the AC case, and the arc would extinguish at a smaller opening distance than with DC.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

You are right, when stating voltage in terms of RMS values rather than peak. Yes, that is the standard why to express for system ratings and such, but from a physics perspective it is helpful to explain in terms of peak voltage. I never said anything about removing a person from the circuit, however, the act of interruption of an AC circuit creates less arcing and dissipates at a smaller distance than an equivalent DC circuit.

Re:Great firefighters

[ultranova]

On p. 14, "Cutting the front trunk first responder loop", it shows how to disable the high voltage. Under the hood there is a coiled loop of red wire with a big bright orange label with a picture of wire cutters. You cut the red wire.

Could this be done automatically, either through an accelerometer or just tying a weight to the wire? It's not like the car is going anywhere anyway after experiencing 200+g's.

Re:Great firefighters

[PurpleAlien]

It is not a fact. RMS can be calculated from the peak value of the mains voltage; e.g. in the USA is about 120 × 2, or about 170 volts. But that's besides the point. Take the RMS value and an equivalent DC voltage of also 170 volts. Because the impedance of the body is frequency dependent (The body is not a resistive load. That's why we call it an impedance), the current generated by the AC voltage is higher than the DC voltage and (leaving off ventricular fibrillation) will be more dangerous. This is also why 'safe' values for DC are higher than AC.

Of course it is about reacting. Your muscles can not react faster than 0.07 seconds or so. Considering 50 HZ AC, it would cross through zero crossing twice in one period. One period is of time period 0.02 seconds, hence it passes through zero mark every 0.01 seconds. Why I brought that up? Because you wrote "DC can be much more deadly at lower voltages than AC. The main reason is that AC current goes to zero twice per second, while DC is full current at a constant rate." It's a lot more than twice per second for one.

Re:Great firefighters

[PurpleAlien]

Also, arcing: to bridge 1 cm of air with an arc you need 30KV. At that point, the arc is the least of your worries be it AC or DC.

Re:Great firefighters

[sir-gold]

Existing airbag crash sensors could be used to detect the crash. Design it to release some sort of spring-loaded jumper that disconnects the battery.

Re:Great firefighters

[Enigma2175]

Existing airbag crash sensors could be used to detect the crash. Design it to release some sort of spring-loaded jumper that disconnects the battery.

Most cars already have this (any car with an electric fuel pump), generally called an "inertia switch". I saw some evidence that Teslas have this feature as well (some forum posts) but was unable to find anything specific from the company itself in a quick search.

Re:Great firefighters

[Rexdude]

I thought the US ran on 110/127 V/60 Hz AC, the rest of the world uses 220/240 V/50 Hz.

Re:Great firefighters

[EETech1]

http://www.pyroswitch.com/
It's an explosive that cuts a copper bus bar in half.
Very cool to test:)

Re:Great firefighters

[QuadPro]

Indeed they do, and on page 2 of it they say:

Warning: When fire is involved, consider the entire vehicle energized and DO NOT TOUCH any part of the vehicle.

Re: Great firefighters

[michelcolman]

Actually, that figure is more than 0.01% for Teslas, and more than 0.1% for EVs in general. Expect that proportion to increase drastically in the next few years. If firefighters still don't know how to handle an electric car crash, it's about time they started learning.

Re:Great firefighters

[michelcolman]

Then it was probably disconnected already...

Re:Great firefighters

[michelcolman]

Yep, it does do that automatically, but the system might malfunction and in any case, high speed crashes sometimes create extra electrical connections that weren't there before. They tried to design the car to avoid this as much as possible, but never say never.

Re:Great firefighters

[michelcolman]

Not one in a million, it's actually more than one in 10,000. (1.2 billion cars in the world, well over 120,000 Teslas sold).

And if you count all EVs together, it's more than one in a thousand and growing rapidly.

Re:Great firefighters

[deadweight]

USA houses have 120 volt outlets for lights and small appliances and 240 volt outlets for heavy loads like stoves, dryers, and air conditioners.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

I agree that my use of peak voltage was confusing, it was an attempt to oversimplify as with AC sources the re are a number of things that influence the severity of a fault, such as phase to phase vs phase to nuetral or ground, available short circuit contribution, system grounding, etc.

Reaction is not relevent to me because I dont assume a person will react and release theirself in either case.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

Also, arcing: to bridge 1 cm of air with an arc you need 30KV. At that point, the arc is the least of your worries be it AC or DC.

That is to initiate an arc in an open circuit. That will vary of course with air humidity, particluates, etc. But when interrupting a circuit, arcing continues for a much greater distance before it is extinquished. That distance is significantly higher in a DC circuit.

Re:Great firefighters

[jeremyp]

It is not a fact. RMS can be calculated from the peak value of the mains voltage; e.g. in the USA is about 120 × 2, or about 170 volts.

This is incorrect. The 120V AC quoted for US domestic power supplies is the RMS voltage. The peak voltage can be calculated by multiplying that by the square root of 2. i.e. The peaks are about +170 and -170 volts. The equivalent DC voltage for the US mains (in power delivery) is 120V.

Re:Great firefighters

[necro81]

Actually, the construction of the Tesla battery pack is designed with per-cell fusing. One of the patents that Tesla made available describes how each Li-Ion cell in the pack is wire-bonded to the bus bars. In a high acceleration crash, some of those internal wire bonds will break. (The wire bonds primarily act as conventional electrical fuses, breaking in the event of overcurrent.) Really you only need one bond in each series string to break in order to open-circuit the battery.

Re:Great firefighters

[Kkloe]

no it speaks only that they were prepared for a car crash, I doubt that in any country any firefighter will pack with them things for chemical or electrical fires unless they know about it beforehand, atleast full body suits, they might be able to handle small incidents but this was not considered a small incident

Re: Great firefighters

[Opportunist]

Because it does affect me, you and everyone in a rather sizable area when a fuel truck loses its content into the surrounding area. Possibly tons of contaminated soil for years and decades to come that have to be removed and deposited safely.

A Tesla burning means 5 people affected. Tops. For a few minutes. Tops. After that, it depends on whether you want an open coffin or whether it's ok to let them burn to a crisp.

Re:Great firefighters

[Opportunist]

Make sure it's on a dead man's switch. Last thing you'd want is the power not being cut due to a power failure.

Re:Great firefighters

[PurpleAlien]

I meant that taking the 120V RMS value and multiplying it by sqrt(2) gives you the peak value of 170V. Slashdot ate the sqrt, and yes, that sentence could have been more clearly stated...

Re:Great firefighters

[thegarbz]

Yes.

I know you didn't mention removing someone from a circuit but it's actually a key part of how DC kills. Burns and blood clots depend on the time of contact. That is what makes DC quite dangerous, the ability to be in contact with the live circuit for longer.

Re:Great firefighters

[Mr D from 63]

In hindsight I'd have worded it differently. Either can kill you, so neither is really notably safer, and I've never seen any stats that compare the outcomes of incidences of AC vs DC. AC events are certainly much more common due to the much greater number of potential exposure points. Thanks for keeping me straight.

When you think about it, what is more interesting is the systemic differences. AC presents the phase to ground danger that makes approaching an energized component more dangerous. With DC its harder to become part of the circuit, but if you do its more likely from touching two points with opposite hands or arms, sending the current across your upper body. With AC its likely a path from an arm down through your legs. Then, of course, you may get some help from resistivity of your shoes. In a DC circuit, you have the internal resistance of the battery itself that can limit current. The good thing about AC ground faults is they can be easily detected to open a breaker. If you become part of a DC circuit, it may not be detected as a overcurrent, as current is expected through that path. It is only cleared if it is excessive. On the other hand, lower voltage DC breakers sometimes clear faster when triggered as they don't hold for a zero current break.

Re: Great firefighters

[Coren22]

Or for that matter the risk from 10-20 gallons of extremely flammable gasoline.

Re:Great firefighters

[lucien86]

Yes but its relatively easy to shut mains down in an emergency. If you have no other method just spray water into the consumer unit and the short circuit will immediately blow the main house fuse or local grid breaker. The problem with battery fires is that there is no fuse that can stop a short circuit inside a battery.

Re:Great firefighters

[zenith1111]

Next you get your meter serviced or calibrated have a look at how its setup. Most apartments have 400V ph-ph (not 415V that's Australia) running through them with each apartment hooked to an alternate phase.

I do know how my house is setup and it's Phase+Neutral+Ground. It sounds like you are talking about split-phase, with Phase1+Neutral+Phase2, which I have never seen in person in Europe (talking about the electric grid, not generators and DC-AC inverters). Where do you live?

Also 120VDC doesn't hurt. Take it from experience.

I won't take it from your "experience", because I know 120VDC can kill you, unless you are an automaton that can control skin moisture or tearproof skin.

Should you approach these cars with care? Yes, they can kill you. But my point is your assertion that these cars are far more dangerous wasn't right.

How is your point, that 120VDC "doesn't hurt", makes an argument for "a 375VDC system is not dangerous when the power supply might have been damaged and can catch fire without prior notice"?

Re:Great firefighters

[DarkVader]

The standard for car fires is water. Gasoline can be extinguished with water, you just have to use enough of it.

Water-based foam is also commonly used.

But you're not going to see anything more exotic than that used for most car fires. Even for a burning VW magnesium engine block, the standard is spraying water while the block burns itself out.

Frist to come must shut power down

[rwiggers]

Ops, batt power don't shut down...
Some new training and updated procedures will be needed...

Re:Frist to come must shut power down

[Frobnicator]

They know what to do with modern vehicles. I understand the rush to be a first poster rather than actually reading the article.

If you had actually read the article you would have seen:

... since firefighters were certain the victim had died immediately after the crash, it did not make sense for rescue workers to take unneeded risks in recovering his body.

Re:Frist to come must shut power down

[rwiggers]

"We know a lot about electric cars, but there are always going to be cases where something unexpected happens," Boer said. "There are going to be educational moments."

They may have procedures in place, but are still uncertain. Also certainly not that many accidents with electric cars take place yet for the procedures to be really known by heart.

Therefore some new training and updated procedures will be needed...

Re:Frist to come must shut power down

[cyn1c77]

I understand the rush to be a first poster rather than actually reading the article.

I don't!

It exemplifies everything depressing about the internet! It was (1) WRONG, (2) snarky, and (3) got modded up as insightful by others who also didn't read the article! The only thing missing is the fact that the poster wasn't anonymous.

Re:High Voltage?

[Anonymous Coward]

My grandfather just used a light bulb and a coat hanger.

Re:just the facts

[glenebob]

Witnesses say he was going too fast. "He was just flying", noted one person.

Not just Tesla

[PPH]

But wouldn't there be an electrocution risk with any EV or hybrid?

Re:Not just Tesla

[Firethorn]

Prius: 288V
Tesla: 375V

I wouldn't rate the Tesla as significantly more likely to kill you, but in a near-worst case scenario Tesla's battery has additional voltage to kill you with, and even more amps to make sure you're well cooked. ~85 kWh vs 4.4 kWh.

van der Decken

[Anonymous Coward]

The Frying Dutchman as it were.

TFA

[b0bby]

TFA says that since they had already determined that the driver was dead, they were extra cautious. They do have protocols for dealing with electric cars, and would doubtless have acted quicker if there had been a chance to save the driver. As it was, they waited for an expert to come and give it a once over, which seems prudent.

Re:TFA

[Mr D from 63]

Oh quit being rational and thinking. A good Slashdotter will over-react, blame the firemen for being stupid, and make assumptions about training and such based on the tone of an article writer's misleading headline. No matter that the firemen had no reason to hurry, they should have rushed in there and started doing something to the car immediately. Surely their training didn't say anything about stopping and thinking if you see something unusual. Firemen hate Tesla's and now we have proof.

Re:TFA

[blindseer]

Agreed. They had determined the sole occupant was dead and so there was no point in further risk of life in dealing with the wreckage.

How is this even news? Is it because it is an electric car? We've had electric cars before. If one is to include things like electric forklifts then I imagine similar situations have come up many times before. Is it news because it is a Tesla? If so then is this supposed to make them look bad? Perhaps someone's bias is showing.

If this had been a wreck in water then I imagine a recovery would take just as long. A crash in water also is unlikely to result in survivors, regardless of the power plant that powers the vehicle. If there were live occupants, such as if one had just witnessed the crash, then a lot of safety protocols go out the window.

The guy is dead. Take your time to clean up the mess and do it right. Just don't take too long as there is a social need to have respect for the dead.

News reporting creates cognitive biases

[l2718]

We have a fundamental problem: our brains tend to confuse the availability and prevalence of information about something with the prevalence of the underlying event.

Here, the news is reporting on every serious Tesla crash, creating the false impression that these are dangerous cars -- we aren't seeing a report on every Corolla crash, say.

I think the same bias plays into current panic over child abductions, which is distorting evaluation of common parenting strategies like letting kids play by themselves: it's not that abductions today are more common in the past, but that today's media is much better equipped to discover and wildly and rapidly disseminate information about them.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[ytene]

Agreed. I guess this is the downside of being a pioneer of electric cars - a bit like SpaceX's recent explosion during static testing prompted a bunch of armchair experts to try and tell SpaceX how to prepare for launches: everyone's a critic.

But think back to circa 2000, when Ford Explorers started seeing issues with Firestone tyres... That was estimated to have caused "over 250 deaths and 3,000 serious injuries" [wikipedia] - and yes, when those numbers started to rack up, there were stories in the press. But for the longest time the press treated those events as "just another vehicle incident".

It does bother me that articles don't put some context or even validated statistics against these articles. Anything for the headline - "never let the facts get in the way of a good story..."

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[Etcetera]

We have a fundamental problem: our brains tend to confuse the availability and prevalence of information about something with the prevalence of the underlying event.

Here, the news is reporting on every serious Tesla crash, creating the false impression that these are dangerous cars -- we aren't seeing a report on every Corolla crash, say.

I think the same bias plays into current panic over child abductions, which is distorting evaluation of common parenting strategies like letting kids play by themselves: it's not that abductions today are more common in the past, but that today's media is much better equipped to discover and wildly and rapidly disseminate information about them.

This goes doubly for gun violence (generally), mass shootings (specifically), and police shootings (aka, #BLM).

Most of the stats haven't changed much, and several have actually decreased. Media availability makes everything seem fresh and dynamic, with (IMHO) serious societal effects manifesting as a result.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[Firethorn]

Here, the news is reporting on every serious Tesla crash, creating the false impression that these are dangerous cars -- we aren't seeing a report on every Corolla crash, say.

Indeed. For most car brands we'd be looking at a fatal crash story daily - not quarterly or less as with Tesla, usually with a crash so extreme it'd be newsworthy anyways.

"Crash was so violent that it ripped the car in half and lodged the rear end a story up between a church and an office building". Made all the more newsworthy that the driver managed to be 'live' enough to make it to surgery, even if he subsequently died. This was for the first fatal Tesla crash I read about.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[pezpunk]

so few? there's over 100,000 total Teslas out there.

also, no, reporting on every crash is not fair. the claim is that autopilot is better than a human, not that autopilot is infallible. and that Teslas are safer than other cars, not that Teslas are indestructible. fair reporting would be reporting on the statistics, not individual Tesla incidents (while ignoring all other brand of cars' fatal accidents).

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[amRadioHed]

Sure, as long as you report on every fatality involving the cars they claim they are safer than too.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[fluffernutter]

Being better on average than a human doesn't excuse it from killing people in mistakes it might make today.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[UnderCoverPenguin]

so few? there's over 100,000 total Teslas out there

That is few. For a comparison, for example, GM makes more than 100,000 Sierra/Silverado pickup trucks per year. Then add in the SUVs (Tahoe/etc) based on the same platform and that's at least 200,000 per year. Tesla's 100,000+ vehicles are its total production over several years.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[drinkypoo]

That is few. For a comparison, for example, GM makes more than 100,000 Sierra/Silverado pickup trucks per year. Then add in the SUVs (Tahoe/etc) based on the same platform and that's at least 200,000 per year. Tesla's 100,000+ vehicles are its total production over several years.

While it's few, even the major automakers have made plenty of cars which sold less over their total lifetime than the model S, a handful which sold less than the X, and even some which sold less than the Roadster. Most of them are still on the road, too.

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[PixelPusher1532]

GM makes more than 100,000 Sierra/Silverado pickup trucks per year

Your numbers are quite low. Acording to wiki, 2015 sales for Sierra/Silverado were 824,683, just in America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[ArylAkamov]

My 1970s shitbox must be safe, I've never seen any news stories about people dying in it!

Re:News reporting creates cognitive biases

[michelcolman]

Also, AFAIK, there is no indication that autopilot was engaged, quite the contrary. From the pictures this looks like a very high speed crash, probably well above the autopilot speed limit. You can't set the autopilot to drive more than 10 km/h above the speed limit which I would guess at that location would probably be 80 km/h.

It looks like it was being driven manually at a much higher speed and the crash would not have been survivable in any car.

Electrocution wasn't the reason

[guruevi]

The reason was because the car was engulfed in flames and the occupant was already dead. It's not like they didn't extinguish the fire or let the occupant die. You can use large amounts of water to extinguish Lithium battery fires (removing both heat and oxygen) and these batteries are dry, not pure liquid lithium. This would be similar for a gas powered car if the gas tank is engulfed, fire fighters won't risk recovering corpses or property if there is a substantial risk of an explosion.

Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason

[sjames]

Exactly this. The relevant facts are: A man crashed a car into a tree and died. Since he was already dead and no other human life was at risk, firefighters took no unnecessary risks as they managed the fire. The rest was just a bunch of blather to try to turn an all too common everyday event into a story.

Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason

[guruevi]

First responder manual on EV. Large amounts meaning what comes out of a fire hose, not a bucket. You want to cool the device and dilute any chemicals.

Re:Electrocution wasn't the reason

[Mr D from 63]

It actually could have been an interesting article that talked about the procedures firefighters use in these situations. Maybe some people could have been educated on little things they are trained on, such as 'if you see something that doesn't look safe, don't take chances if there is no need to." In other words, people might learn it is not such a bad thing for firefighters stop and think when facing situations that have even a remote chance of being dangerous.

Re:How do electricians work on big power lines?

[guruevi]

Not necessarily, they have special equipment that allows them to handle things like that without grounding themselves. I used to know a guy that worked those lines, they'd have to climb the ladder and have lunch in the middle of a tower. Same goes for gas lines, they actually only work on pressurized lines because otherwise a gas/air mixture could explode whereas gas by itself doesn't.

Tesla Battery Packs for Buildings

[Roger W Moore]

For larger buildings, the first thing they'll do is shut off the power.

Just wait until they start installing the Tesla battery packs designed for buildings. As batteries become more and more efficient and longer lived they are going to start appearing in more and more locations. Fire crews clearly need to have the training to deal with them otherwise they will not be able to do their job safely and effectively.

Re:Tesla Battery Packs for Buildings

[Firethorn]

As batteries become more and more efficient and longer lived they are going to start appearing in more and more locations.

I've had to deal when designing a solar system for my house, or even putting in a generator. There's a switch on the side of my house that they can use to shut all of that off, and for something like the Tesla battery, I can see a "big red button" being required at the service entrance that, if pushed, deactivates a relay keeping the power connected.

Re:Tesla Battery Packs for Buildings

[swb]

If large batteries become cheap enough and powerful enough to make sense in houses, I wouldn't be surprised to see a building code change that requires them to be encased in some kind of fire-resistant box and/or have a thermal switch that shuts them off in the event of a fire.

Re:Tesla Battery Packs for Buildings

[wisnoskij]

Which does not solve one of the main issues. You still have a hundred pounds of stuff in your basement with the energy density of dynamite. There is no way to make that safe within unknown extreme environments like a building fire.

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Thud457]

I think you're all missing the point here:
Tesla's KILLER ROBOTS 2 , Humanity 0

Re:WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Calydor]

Wait, are you saying humans have destroyed NO Tesla cars yet?!

Who did they hire to build them, NOKIA?!

Re:WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[future assassin]

I just Shatnered my pants. Mod the parent up!

Re:WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

[Coren22]

Yup, roughly the same level of risk of any other car on the road. In fact, it has less risk than 90% of the cars on the road, but let's not pick nits.

Re: High Voltage?

[AK Marc]

You just spray water on it with the mist setting all fire hoses have. If the water settling on the battery causes sparks, then it's live and high voltage. If the water puts the fire out, then it's not an issue. Even if it's high voltage, spraying water on it will close the circuit, rendering the surrounding area safe. Water is the appropriate response for a variety of reasons.

Re:High Voltage?

[TroII]

Unfortunately we still have to do it that way in Kansas, there are only 3 abortion clinics in the whole state.

Re:How many priuses and leafs crash every day?

[Frobnicator]

From the article:

...since firefighters were certain the victim had died immediately after the crash, it did not make sense for rescue workers to take unneeded risks in recovering his body.

They know exactly how to handle the vehicles in regular situations, and had the victim still had a chance of being alive I'm sure they would have rushed in. Most likely the body was severely mangled. When the victim is clearly dead there is no point in rushing in to rescue a corpse.

photo's

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.112apeldoorn.nl/page/Nieuwsdetail/35830/dodelijk-ongeval-met-tesla-in-baarn

Re:photo's

[Beezlebub33]

I don't even see a car. I see car-related bits, and a wheel. Pretty area though. Nice place to drive through.

Re:photo's

[samwichse]

Apparently even nicer place to drive through at 155km/h

Re:just the facts

[Smidge204]

A Flying Dutchman? I thought this was a car crash, not a shipwreck...

=Smidge=

Re: Once again!

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

In any case, Tesla will gain the ultimate advantage with full robot drive (assuming they get it right.) The need for the best crumple zones and whatnot plummets if you don't get into accidents in the first place, so Volvo's advantage in that will disappear.

Of course Volvo may even have it first.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[BradleyUffner]

There was nothing to save. The driver was dead, the fire could be contained from a safe distance. What could be gained by taking the, admittedly small, risk?

All you can eat my ass!

[Joe_Dragon]

That place says all you can eat but they kick people out when they think they had to much.

Re:All you can eat my ass!

[Joe_Dragon]

This is an restaurant review not a class room.

Re: High Voltage?

[AK Marc]

They have other ways to deal with electrical threats, other than using a voltmeter. Do you not understand the basics of electricity?

Re:Once again!

[F.Ultra]

Maybe that where the case in the US, over here in Europe (and the Nordics in particular) the Volvo 240 sold like crazy.

Re:just the facts

[zlives]

lol ok at least made me smile old as i am.

Re:just the facts

[zlives]

you have to unlock the option after catching all the Pokémon

why

[pezpunk]

why is this news? every type of car on the road has fatal collisions every day. fearmongering about electric cars is dumb.

Re:why

[cwsumner]

Because other car companies, and their investors, are afraid of Tesla taking their business over.
And because even the respected news sevices are now devolved to "clickbait", no better than the grocery store "alians in my lunch" papers.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Khyber]

They're still supposed to TRY. How did they know he wasn't just unconscious or in a coma from the crash?

Re:People are idiots

[Khyber]

"I would bet most fire departments have little training yet on EV batteries."

You lose that bet. Firefighters are trained to handle metal fires like sodium and lithium. Battery or raw element makes zero difference, their training should've had them able to handle that fire. Protip: Class D fire extinguisher (I was a volunteer firefighter.)

Re:How do electricians work on big power lines?

[Dare nMc]

You talking much higher voltages than this. 600Volts to 1.35 Kvolts is the medium voltage. Anything below 600 doesn't require special certifications to be around. Those below 600 volts you can touch the insulation on hot wires without risk of shock (assuming no nicks...) Above 600 you start having to use the special poles to check if they are hot. it is more in the 25 kV plus stuff your talking about, where you can get arc flashes that kill you while still several feet of air.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[baker_tony]

You know what I hate? Useless fuks (who would run crying to mummy if they saw what those firemen saw) commenting on fire fighters from their armchair without knowing all the facts and having no real idea what unfolded or why.

Imagine if they reported every Ford crash

[kangsterizer]

we'd be flooded

Re: High Voltage?

[AK Marc]

Yeah, it follows the shortest path and all paths at the same time, so short out an electrical fire with water, and you put out the electrical fire and secondary fire at the same time. The reason you don't use water on electric is that if you turn a fire hose on a burning electric train, you'll kill the firemen holding the hose.

People get confused over the differences, and make rules of thumb that are simply wrong.

Re:How do electricians work on big power lines?

[DarkVader]

Yeah. They do their best to never cut the power on those circuits. If the towers are still standing, chances are good that the circuit is hot.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Mr D from 63]

How did they know he wasn't just unconscious or in a coma from the crash?

I think firefighters are probably some of the most qualified persons to make that call. Sometimes its quite obvious when a person is dead. You can assume this was not one of those situations, but there is no information available to support that assumption.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[DarkVader]

There are some obvious signs that are sufficient. For example, head detached from body is generally a pretty good one, as is brain matter splattered. They don't specify how they knew, but it is sometimes possible to definitively diagnose death from a distance.

Advanced fire fighter training for Tesla Model X

[worldthinker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:Useless firefighters.

[rch7]

What are you talking about. Water is conductive, and firefighter clothes are not hermetic when they respond to simple accidents like this. Firefighters do get electric shock sometimes, although it isn't necessary as more often electricity travels to ground IF water reaches ground first.

Lost focus

[Trogre]

A fatal crash of a Tesla Model S in the United States earlier this year knocked the company's shares and raised concerns about whether automated driving technology was being released to consumers safely.

Simple answer: It isn't.

Stop all this automated up-selling bullshit and give me my damn electric car.

Re:Lost focus

[DarkVader]

Using the driver assist technologies isn't mandatory.

But it is a great feature, and can take some of the monotony of driving away. I want more of it.

Yes, driving can be fun. Zipping around the twisty-windies is great. (It's even more fun on two wheels than it is inside four.) It can also be utter boredom.

My electric car still has a gas engine too, but when 300 mile range hits my price point, chances are it won't.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Khyber]

Uh, newsflash, metal/electrical fires get handled with class D extinguishing dry material. Most every truck typically carries something sufficient.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[baker_tony]

You know what I also hate? People who use the word "fag" a lot to try and cover up their own homosexual tendencies. Just come out of the closet already.

Re:due to fears they could be electrocuted

[sir-gold]

The story is that a Tesla was involved, that's it.

Welcome to tesladot.org: News for Telsa nerds, stuff that matters (if you are into Tesla)

News Update

[lbalbalba]

The driver was going over 155 kilometers per hour (roughly 96 miles per hour) on a road where the maximum speed is 80 kilometers per hour (roughly 49 miles per hour), and the car was not on autopilot. Dutch stroy here, and google translation here.

Re:Once again!

[Opportunist]

And how many were killed by them?

I have seen some crash tests involving cars and those tanks disguised as cars called Volvos. It was usually not very pretty. The Volvo usually swallowed the other car whole and spat out the crushed cube with as much as a scratch to the bumper.

If I build a car that relies fully on the crumple zone of the other car, I can easily claim that mine is safe.

Re:How many priuses and leafs crash every day?

[Opportunist]

There is such a company? Why wasn't it yet bought out?

Re:just the facts

[Opportunist]

Tesla was informed that the TSA would have to be involved and decided it ain't worth the hassle.

Re: Once again!

[cwsumner]

Thinking that car autopilots will prevent car crashes, is like thinking that aircraft autopilots will prevent airplane crashes. They don't ! ;-)

Re:due to fears they could be electrocuted

[lucien86]

Wrong. The Tesla X uses a 400 V DC battery - touching any exposed wire in the HV system can be instantly lethal. That's directly from the Tesla first responders safety manual.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[Khyber]

"Just come out of the closet already."

Come out of your cave, pretty much everyone here knows I'm gay, married, and have held this relationship longer than you've likely held one, statistically speaking.

Re:Useless firefighters.

[baker_tony]

At yet you use "fag" as a hate word. You need help.

Breathless, panting stories abound

[samwichse]

I actually saw this headline first:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/w...

ROFL, talk about a load of crap. Even their own story mentions it was unknown at the time of publishing whether the car was in autopilot or not. Of course, it was super effective... the comments are full of crap about how autopilot is a crap feature that is killing people in a car prone to explosive burns.

Meanwhile, actual facts intrude:
http://www.afr.com/technology/...

Car was travelling at 155km/hr and autopilot was not on.

Sam

Re:Useless firefighters.

[rch7]

You have no chance to extinguish 1000-1300 pound Li-Ion battery with some truck extinguisher. In this particular case only parts of the battery were thrown away and on fire, but firefighters failed to extinguish them and had to cover them with sand or soil.