California Launches Mandatory Data Collection For Police Use-of-Force (seattletimes.com)

Bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · 2016-09-25 03:41 · Score: 1, Interesting

This is mostly due to the idea that unarmed blacks are killed more often by cops than unarmed whites. But the data are scarce and police killings are so rare that it's hard to make this claim with any accuracy. The 800 pound elephant in the room that groups like Black Lives Matter refuse to address is that there's far more violent crime committed by blacks than other races, even when controlling for factors like socioeconomic status. Where's the outrage over all of the violent crime? Moreover, people who mention these statistics are usually dismissed as being racist, to avoid addressing these uncomfortable issues. Perhaps I should kneel and raise my first during the national anthem until progress is made to stop violent crime by blacks against unarmed whites, which is orders of magnitude more common than the killing of unarmed blacks by police.

Re:Bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · 2016-09-25 04:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

I dunno, where is the outrage over home mortgage schemes that kept black people from buying new homes in the suburbs and living in inner city tenements?
Where is the outrage over failures to force the owners of those tenements from removing lead pain and plumbing?
Where is the outrage over the abandonment of inner city school systems?
If you take any population of humans, expose them to lead for their entire lives and then fail to educate them or giver them gainful employment which offers a chance for a better life...
Then you would end up with slums that are filled with whatever group is oppressed and the other groups, which managed to avoid said fate, pointing the finger at them and calling them animals
much like you have
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 04:19 · Score: 1

The entire population was exposed to lead until it was removed from paint and gasoline. Lead isn't the culprit when it comes to violence.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · 2016-09-25 04:30 · Score: 1

Hilarious that you can summarily sweep that under the rug.
A lot of it has to do with frequency and duration of exposure. If you live in a house with lead paint that was applied recently and that is not peeling, then it has little effect on you
If you live in a 30 year old building where lead pain is chipping off and children can eat those alarmingly sweet (yes it was used as a sweetener in the past) little tidbits, then you will have a much greater effect
Similarly, if your cheap-ass city administrator decides to change the chemistry of the water going through the lead pipes in your older part of town, then you will receive a high, continual dose of lead
Here is some more information to feast upon:
Factors which contribute to the risk include:
intensity of exposure (highest lead level)
chronicity or duration of exposure
age of the child during exposure
nutritional and biological status of the child
degree of environmental/ developmental stimulation
Exposure to lead can result in a variety of effects upon neuropsychological functioning including deficits in general intellectual functioning, ability to sustain attention on tasks, organization of thinking and behavior, speech articulation, language comprehension and production, learning and memory efficiency, fine motor skills, high activity level, reduced problem solving flexibility, and poor behavioral self-control.
http://www.mwph.org/programs/lead-treatment/effects
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 05:01 · Score: 1

You missed the point entirely - the ENTIRE population was exposed 50 years ago. Didn't matter where you lived. Lead in gasoline was everywhere. It got into the air, the water, the soil, the food. And people lived in houses with lead paint, and furniture painted with lead paint, because that was pretty much all that there was. The air and water and food and soil didn't suddenly become lead-free because you were white. The veggies weren't marked "lead free - whites only". Plenty of kids worked their way through school as pump jockeys, and they got higher exposures than the kids who dropped out earlier.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 05:09 · Score: 1

Just say it. You're dying to say it. "It's in their culture."
Everyone here was also exposed to lead, but we didn't have the level of racia violence the US had, or continues to have, so yes, of course, it's in American culture. You can't have a country whose economic foundation was slavery not have a cultural problem. Has nothing to do with lead, and everything to do with racism.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by Uberbah · 2016-09-25 06:16 · Score: 1

The entire population was exposed to lead until it was removed from paint and gasoline. Lead isn't the culprit when it comes to violence.
Neat goalpost moving, but the removal of lead from gas is a non sequitur on the subject of removing lead from pipes and paint.
Re:Bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · 2016-09-25 06:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

OK Barb, I see that your hatred of poor American's is deeply ingrained and that you will go to ridiculous lengths to defend your unwarranted position that lead contamination of inner city slums had a major impact on the people who live there, leading to furtherance of violence and poverty.
Just in case anybody else is interested in the overwhelming evidence counter to Barb's position can read any of these articles:
https://www.in.gov/isdh/files/Pb_behavior_problems_and_violence_fact_sheet.pdf
http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2013/01/03/how-lead-caused-americas-violent-crime-epidemic/#1a63205b63b2
http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/jfeigenbaum/files/feigenbaum_muller_lead_crime.pdf
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-lead-poisoning-science-met-20150605-story.html
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/02/lead-exposure-gasoline-crime-increase-children-health
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/violent-crime-lead-poisoning-british-export
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lead-crime_hypothesis
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/0900625/
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 08:35 · Score: 2

And yet the US continued to practice slavery long after most of the western world made it illegal. You were even stupid enough to fight a civil war over it, that's how deeply it's ingrained in your culture. Just look at the fuss with the confederate flag - those attitudes are still alive today. The industrial revolution didn't make slavery economically nonviable - to the contrary, it increased demand for slaves because the machines could process more cotton, and only the slaves could pick it.
It only died out in the southern states because the northern states were emancipating slaves that made it north. The loss of cheap labor, not the industrial revolution, was why it died out. If they could have continued to replace slaves as fast as they ran away, or put up exit controls, the southern states would have had no problem, and would probably have won the civil war.
People still wore clothes even during the industrial revolution. Someone had to pick that cotton. It wasn't machines.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 08:41 · Score: 1

I didn't move any goalposts. I stated a truth. EVERY SINGLE PERSON in America was exposed to lead. Not just in paint. And it wasn't just the plumbing in poorer communities either. Or lead-based solder in copper plumbing, which is in pretty much every home built before before the 1980s that hasn't ripped out their plumbing. That's much of the housing stock still around. And newer homes have a higher risk of radon, so the poor are less likely to be exposed to that.
You simply cannot blame the behavior on lead, because at the time when everyone was exposed to lead in pipes (and many still are), we didn't see the level of violence we see today. That's a cultural problem - an AMERICAN cultural problem, not a race problem.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 08:52 · Score: 1

Too bad that it's easy to disprove all of that. Almost every house built before 1980 has lead solder that is still leaching into the water. And of course, as I pointed out, everyone was exposed to lead in gasoline, which got into the air, the soil, and vegetables. No exceptions. How come we didn't see the same level of violence among everyone?
It's American culture that is to blame, not race per se. Economic disparity due to racism, not lead. Quit trying to get out of blaming white people for this shit situation, which has been amply proven to still exist today. Own your history. Lead does not cause employers to reject people with black-sounding names.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · 2016-09-25 09:06 · Score: 1

The 800 pound elephant in the room that groups like Black Lives Matter refuse to address is that there's far more violent crime committed by blacks than other races, even when controlling for factors like socioeconomic status.
That's a bold claim. Where are you getting this info from? If you're stating that more blacks are convicted of violent crimes, then that's believable. But, the idea that black people are *actually* committing more crimes than whites seems pretty suspect. What seems more likely is that racial profiling causes more black folks to be arrested and convicted of violent crime. We have quite a bit of evidence to support the idea of racial profiling (e.g. tribalism) but very little (or no) data to support the idea that race influences violent tendencies.
If you're suggesting that black people are inherently more likely to be violent just because they are black, then yes, that is a racist idea. That's pretty much the definition of racism.
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 13:01 · Score: 1

Every country with electricity had decades of exposure to lead. Kettles, coffee-makers, percolators, etc. - all used lead solder.
Every other country had everyone exposed to lead piping for decades as well.
So why is it the US that has these problems, and nowhere else? American culture. Everything else, from exposure to lead paint to lead in gasoline was the same. Correlation is not causation, not when the correlation only works in the US.
There's a much stronger correlation with poverty. Quit blaming your problems on lead. As I said, lead doesn't cause employers to reject people with black-sounding names. That sort of racism is a stronger factor than lead. Especially since the people doing the shooting today are mostly not living with lead in the plumbing. Flint was for a couple of years, but the violence there pre-dated that, and the municipal and residential plumbing with lead pipes is not unique to Flint.
City and state governments are still advising people to run their cold water tap for 30 seconds before using the water for drinking or food preparation because of lead, and 2 to 3 minutes if it has not been used for a few hours (overnight when everyone is sleeping, or at work).
Even brass keys, handled twice a day, exceed exposure limits.

handling keys - ordinary brass keys like you'll find in your pocket or pocketbook to lock and unlock your house door - may expose you to the toxic chemical lead at levels that exceed Proposition 65 limits," Lockyer said. "Given this discovery of lead exposure, parents may want to rethink using their jangling keys as a convenient toy for their toddlers and small children.
In laboratory tests for the state, researchers looked at more than three dozen keys from 13 different makers. While the researchers found widely varying levels of lead on the hands of test subjects, the very lowest test results still exceed the Proposition 65 "No Significant Risk Level" of 0.5 micrograms per day when doubled on the assumption that people handle keys at least twice a day. While the highest testing results were 80 times the 0.5 micrograms per day limit, the average of all keys tested was about 19 times the "No Significant Risk Level." Both new and old keys tested were found to release lead at fairly similar rates.
Brass taps, fittings, etc., all leach lead. Everyone was exposed, many are still exposed.because they don't run the water for 30 seconds to 3 minutes. And yet, the problem of violence at levels like those in the USA isn't seen in other OECD countries that had/have the same lead exposure. Next you'll be claiming that Rome fell because of lead in the plumbing ...

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 13:07 · Score: 1

I never said that there was any correlation between the two. What I DID say was that it's American culture that;s to blame. You don't see these levels of violence in other western civilizations.
What I was disputing is the claim that the industrial revolution caused the end of slavery, which would require not just the automation of cotton mills in England, but cotton picking in the US.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 13:14 · Score: 1

Minorities are only over-represented in the largest cities. Remove those cities, and the rate of violence drops to levels that are more or less normal in the rest of the world. It's your culture, not the lead, because other, smaller cities also have had continuous exposure to lead. There were more than 10 lead smelters, brassowrks, and pipemakers in the whole USA.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re: Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 13:30 · Score: 1

And yet, it's still higher in poorer communities. Racial segregation is alive and well today in the US. So is inequality of education and opportunity and poverty rates. That's a fact.
Another fact is that, after a couple of decades of dropping, violence is increasing. More than 50 people were shot in Chicago in just one weekend this year..

On April 20, Chicago reached 1,000 shooting victims for the year, six to nine weeks earlier than in the previous four years, according to data compiled by the Tribune. That grim milestone, for instance, wasn't reached until June 4 last year.
Perhaps even more troubling, this marks the third consecutive year in which Chicago has seen double-digit increases in shootings.
Not surprisingly, homicides are also soaring in Chicago. Through Sunday, 196 people have been killed, a 55 percent increase over the 126 victims a year earlier, official Police Department figures show.
Going up, up, up.
Blacks are fleeing Chicago because of the increased violence, so forget about blaming them either.

The 2010 census reported a 17 percent drop in the city's black population over the previous decade. That number declined another an additional 4 percent through 2014, to 852,756.
Is it lead? No, because rates were going down, and now they're going up. No sudden increase in lead exposure to account for it.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by Mashiki · 2016-09-25 19:27 · Score: 1

Everyone here was also exposed to lead, but we didn't have the level of racia violence the US had, or continues to have, so yes, of course, it's in American culture.
No, it's not in "American culture." Being that I live in Canada, was born there, was raised there. We see similar things with our native populations. We're now also seeing it happen within the black communities that were imported from the Caribbean in the 80's and 90's. There are part of Toronto/GTA that are like Detroit of the 1980's with crime issues.
It has nothing to do with racism. In both cases here in Canada it's down to a few things: Poor and poor people believing that they can get no where, so they do what their friends are doing. Even though the government literally throws millions if not billions of dollars a year at it.

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Om, nomnomnom...
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-26 02:20 · Score: 1

Racism keeps them poor, because they are shut out of jobs. Keeping them on the reserves means that most Canadians never get to know one. It also opens the door to massive corruption, such as the band chief and her husband who took combined salaries of over half a million a year, tax-free, to "administer" a band of 80 people, and then had the nerve to say that there wasn't enough money to fix the problems. Of course not - they took a huge chunk of it.
Or the band chief who grabbed almost a million, then fought the government (like many did) to not have to show the books.
And yes, we throw billions at the problem, to no avail, because corruption is the norm, same as making money smuggling booze, tobacco, weed, and arms, as well as running illegal online gambling sites.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-26 02:41 · Score: 1

How about the personal responsibility of employers who don't want people with black-sounding names, even though they love them when the same resume is submitted with a white-sounding name? How about the dearth of blacks and women as coders? Black engineers are nowhere near represented in the industry based on their proportion of the population with engineering degrees. Why not put some personal responsibility on those who allow such practices?
It's going to be the same as more and more jobs are lost to robots. When you lose yours, how are you going to like it when someone says you should take personal responsibility, even though you went into a 6-figure debt to make sure you could get a job? Because if you live long enough, it will happen to you.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by Mashiki · 2016-09-26 19:30 · Score: 1

Yeah, you have no idea of what you're talking about. They're not kept on reserves, they can leave whenever they wish and keep their traditions or not. Join society or not. The most vocal about the entire thing are...well...actual natives. Racism isn't keeping them poor, their own choices are keeping them poor. If a native has the choice between going to university, or even working or living the easy life on the reserve with everything provided, while they pound back booze and their kids are huffing. Which do you think they're going to take? It's not the first option, it's the second.
Corruption is a secondary problem, that the previous government(Harper/Conservatives) tried to fix by requiring mandatory and public disclosures. The current government(Trudeau/Liberals), revoked that law claiming it was racist.

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Om, nomnomnom...
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-27 03:20 · Score: 1

Many of them are in isolated reserves with no drinking water. 20 reserves have been under boil water advisories for more than a year. There's no nearby place for them to move to, so in effect they're stuck on the reserves.
Then there are those near larger communities. Landlords often refuse to rent to them. Employers often refuse to hire them. So, what else can they do? Discrimination against Canada's native peoples runs deep. My best friend in my late teens was a native, but I don't know any other white person who can say that.
As for bad choices, look around - bad choices are made by people of all colors and heritages. White people who have never worked a day in their lives, from cradle to social security, just sitting around smoking and drinking and f*cking, or, in one case I know, paying a guy $100 and a case of beer to screw her so she can have another kid and collect more money.
Bad choices are pretty much universal. We all make them, just that some of us get lucky and avoid the consequences or have a better safety net of family and friends.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by Mashiki · 2016-09-27 23:42 · Score: 1

Many of them are in isolated reserves with no drinking water. 20 reserves have been under boil water advisories for more than a year. There's no nearby place for them to move to, so in effect they're stuck on the reserves.
Then there are those near larger communities. Landlords often refuse to rent to them. Employers often refuse to hire them. So, what else can they do? Discrimination against Canada's native peoples runs deep. My best friend in my late teens was a native, but I don't know any other white person who can say that.

You mean because they refuse to repair their equipment? Their money is being embezzled by the people they elected? That they refuse to allow transparency? Gee sounds like to me those are all self-created problems. FYI you can't refuse to rent to anyone in Canada, it's illegal under at least 3 federal acts, and at least 1 in each province. And I haven't even gotten to HRC clauses. Employers will hire anyone if they can do the job. You obviously don't live near any reserves, I live around 8. When I was in university around 20% of my class were natives, most were my friends. And they were the most vocal saying nearly word-for-word what I've said.

As for bad choices, look around - bad choices are made by people of all colors and heritages. White people who have never worked a day in their lives, from cradle to social security, just sitting around smoking and drinking and f*cking, or, in one case I know, paying a guy $100 and a case of beer to screw her so she can have another kid and collect more money.
Bad choices are pretty much universal. We all make them, just that some of us get lucky and avoid the consequences or have a better safety net of family and friends.
Okay and? You're not doing anything to disprove that they're a product of their own creation in those cases. If anything you're proving my point that throwing money at a situation is the worst solution.

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Om, nomnomnom...
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-28 11:25 · Score: 1

You might be interested in why infrastructure continues to deteriorate long after plans are drawn up and budgets set.

The problem, the consultants found, was that feasibility studies were often badly outdated by the time the department got around to approving projects, sometimes years later. And delays in funding approval meant that existing infrastructure on reserves deteriorated, further raising costs.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Re:Bigger problem by Mashiki · 2016-09-30 21:38 · Score: 1

In other words, their own policies and the policies that they want via the government are creating their own problems. And much like the BS at the one reserve in northern ontario with their suicide rate, it's caused by their own actions, lack of in-action, and their own choices. Then again, I bet you didn't hear that the city of Woodstock, Ontario has had a massive number of teen-suicides outstripping that reserve by a 3:1 ratio. Then again, it really wasn't reported on the news either, or in parliament...except by the MP and MPP trying to draw attention to it which the media also continued to ignore along with both Liberal governments.

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Om, nomnomnom...
Re:Bigger problem by BarbaraHudson · 2016-10-01 02:58 · Score: 1

5 suicides in 4 months for a population of 38,000 is NOT "outstripping that reserve by a 3:1 ratio" for a reserve with a population of 2,000 (Attawapiskat) with even 1 suicide. For it to be outstripped 3:1, you'd need 57 suicides. (38000/2000*3).
And according to your reasoning, the suicides in Woodstock are created their own problems, it was caused by their own actions and their own choices.
In other words, your reasoning is totally f*cked up, unless you believe that suicide never has causes beyond a person's control, such as depression. People don't "choose" to get so depressed that they want to kill themselves. Depression is a mental disorder, not a choice.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.

Sometimes they act like gangs by Anonymous Coward · 2016-09-25 03:41 · Score: 1

There are "gang enhancement" laws. Why aren't they used against the gang in blue when they do evil things?

And What Will Come of It? by BrendaEM · 2016-09-25 03:49 · Score: 3, Insightful

I don't think that collecting data is enough. Think of how many innocent people were killed by the police without being videoed. Our police are still allowed to be expert witnesses, in courts. I am sorry if this offends people, but there is nothing intrinsically different about police officers that makes them honest.

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https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM

Re:And What Will Come of It? by iCEBaLM · 2016-09-25 04:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

What gets measured gets managed.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by Hokan · 2016-09-25 05:06 · Score: 1

Of course collecting data not enough. But if anything is to change, that data collection is necessary.

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My sig is wonderful. I love my sig.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by smooth+wombat · 2016-09-25 05:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

but there is nothing intrinsically different about police officers that makes them honest.

You mean other than their training? Compare what an officer is trained to see to a recent shooting in my area. The call came into 911 that a person, the son, had a knife to his mother's throat, had locked her in a bedroom and said he was going to kill her.

When the police arrived they found, oddly, the son with a knife to his mother's throat. After repeated commands to drop the knife an officer fired a single shot at the criminal who later died.

After all that, not only is the mother defending the son who just tried to kill her, claiming her son had no knife and complaining the police didn't have to shoot him, but the girl who called 911 saying her uncle had a knife to his mother's throat later said there was no knife.

Interestingly, the mother also said: "We had a little fight, argument like families have arguments." Apparently in their world pulling out knives and threatening to kill one's mother is what happens in every family during arguments.

Yup, just another day in the city where the police are always wrong even when they witness the crime.

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We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Re:And What Will Come of It? by OzPeter · 2016-09-25 05:26 · Score: 4, Informative

but there is nothing intrinsically different about police officers that makes them honest.
You mean other than their training?

Just as a counterpoint to your example.
1. Officer Sherry Hall from Georgia who claimed that a black guy shot her. Who has now been charged with fabricating that story as well as various other offenses.
2. Officer Jason Stockley from St Louis kills guy then plants gun on him.
3. Officer Mark Wayne Rowe from VA Beach stealing gun bags from the evidence room
4. Pinellas County Sheriff’s deputy Wayne Wagner beats up on a woman and then accuses her of battery of him.
etc etc
So yeah, right. Training.
But what is non-sensical is (former) Officer Stephen Mader from Weirton Wha who was basically fired because he didn't shoot a suicidal man with a gun. Mader who is a former Marine had surveyed the situation, decided that the man in question was not really a threat and was trying to talk him down. Two other officers arrived, decided that the guy was dangerous and shot him dead. Mader was fired because his actions put the other officers at risk. Oh yeah, the gun was unloaded.

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I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
Re:And What Will Come of It? by tinkerton · 2016-09-25 05:56 · Score: 3, Interesting

There's another reason why collecting data is not enough.The police rules of engagement can move along a spectrum from military-like(enemy territory) to police-like(working for the public). I think they shifted a lot towards military-like rules: as soon as a potential risk has been acknowledged the person with the badge has the right to kill. So maybe one should ask european cops what they think of US cops killing and then their chiefs defending the actions.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by Uberbah · 2016-09-25 06:01 · Score: 3, Informative

You mean other than their training? Compare what an officer is trained to see to a recent shooting in my area.
You mean an anecdote? How about we look at the numbers of people who have been released from prison after being proved innocent, who were badgered into confessing by police interrogators - 65 out of 149 last year. Like prosecutors, cops are far, far, far more interested in "winning" than in actual justice.
And cops invariably lie when caught in an unjustified shooting, to cover their own asses. If a cop tells you that nighttime is darker than daytime? Go outside after sundown to check and make sure he was telling the truth.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by BringsApples · 2016-09-25 06:19 · Score: 1

You have a good point, but going along with the point that BrendaEM made, all we're doing with the videoing of cops, is the same thing that was originally done when making someone a cop. We look at the video as the final truth, the "displayer" of pure truth. And to that you're saying that is a measurement, and I cna't disagree completely, yet. However, this guy introduces some variables that should be taken into account before we all just move all of our faith from the police officers to video.

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Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by spire3661 · 2016-09-25 06:47 · Score: 1

No, anyone educated in perspectives and witnesses knows that what one observers sees isnt necessarily the 'truth' other observers see. What video does is provide a static record of one viewpoint from an unbiased perspective. Saying it is pure truth is wrong. Its a singular unflinching perspective. Whether it reflects the 'truth' of the situation is another argument.

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Good-bye
Re:And What Will Come of It? by thegarbz · 2016-09-25 07:37 · Score: 1

but there is nothing intrinsically different about police officers that makes them honest.
And yet we apply this on a professional scale quite often. e.g. Australian government documents often need signatures witnessed. The gold standard is by a justice of the peace, a judge, or an attorney. However then we get down to medical professions such as doctor, chiropractor, physio, nurse, etc. To the questionable such as an engineer who is a registered member of engineers Australia excluding student members, police officer, sheriff, or a permanent employee of the Australian postal service with at least 5 years continuous service. All the way to the down right hilarious such as a member of parliament or the local government.
The only thing that's intrinsically different about the people on the list is that their employment contract or membership contract requires swearing to be truthful and act in good faith. At least this applies to everyone except the last example. E.g. If I in bad faith breath the trust placed in me, it may not only get me fired but also de-registered as an engineer. The same should *in theory* apply to police and that *in theory* should keep them honest.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by drinkypoo · 2016-09-25 13:29 · Score: 1

It's easy to solve this problem. Put a camera on the gun. If it doesn't work, the gun still works and you're in no worse shape than you were before. If it does work, you'll see whether the suspect had a knife or not. Done and done.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:And What Will Come of It? by BringsApples · 2016-09-25 14:17 · Score: 1

I'm talking about editing video then releasing it to the public.

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Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by tinkerton · 2016-09-25 22:39 · Score: 1

You mean an anecdote? How about we look at the numbers of people who have been released from prison after being proved innocent, who were badgered into confessing by police interrogators - 65 out of 149 [motherjones.com] last year. Like prosecutors, cops are far, far, far more interested in "winning" than in actual justice.
.
I think this is a relevant argument. Cops shooting people up are just the tip of the iceberg. A symptom rather than the central problem. Not sure how widespread it is but the black community has good reasons to distrust the judicial system and feeling reduced to just a resource for the prison lobby, with cooperation of the lawyers who go along thinking 'yeah well there's always the possibility to appeal'. Plea bargains are a very rotten system allowing to put people in prison for anything. Just threaten to accuse them of any 3 things and they'll admit to having done one of them.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by dywolf · 2016-09-26 00:44 · Score: 2

we cant control lightning.
we can however control the agents we empower to enforce our laws.

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The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by houghi · 2016-09-26 01:01 · Score: 1

Or ask the military. They are likely to be more often in a dangerous situation compared with European cops. From what I understand Military will have a much stricter procedure to de-escalate a situation.
De-escalation should be a priority and killing a really last option. When I see how people are arrested in the US vs how they do it in Europe, there is a HUGE difference already. If they would do what you see in the US, they would be in jail for abuse of power.

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Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by tinkerton · 2016-09-26 06:30 · Score: 1

One would think that the military are a bit more coolheaded about it, but there seem to be similar cases with excessive rules of engagement.
Soldiers are willing to take risks to avoid casualties but their superiors tell them to do otherwise.
The reason is obvious. The ability for the US to project power is restrained by intolerance at home for soldiers returning in coffins.
So the rules of engagement are adapted accordingly, preference for killing by remote, and in case of direct contact, when in doubt, kill.
This in the first place leads to a lot of foreign casualties, and secondly to a lot of antagonism and well, more enemies.
Actually it's more complex, because there is also only moderate tolerance for directly killing the other guys. Then again there is little objection to less direct forms of killing because it easily gets muddled and confused. We're used to the lowest estimates of casualties in Iraq before 2007, just like we're used to the highest estimates in Syria now.
There is a high tolerance for drone killings, but mostly because they're viewed as highly successful tools that make few mistakes. Which they're not.
You can't do carpet bombing anymore though. It's not tolerated.
Re:And What Will Come of It? by Uberbah · 2016-09-26 08:02 · Score: 1

65 people in a year, nationwide, doesn't sound very "numerous" to me.
65 times the number of examples given by the parent poster.

But for comparison, around 267 people in the US are struck by lightning each year. Just sayin'.
Or...just bein' willfully obtuse. Those 65 people tricked or intimidated into false confessions made up almost half - 44% - of the number of innocent people released from prison in 2015. And we know there are a lot more than 267 innocent people still in prison.

Should they start sooner... by aaarrrgggh · 2016-09-25 03:57 · Score: 1

Maybe they need a tool to identify racial bias in all of their enforcement strategies. Self fulfilling prophecy and all that...

Re:Should they start sooner... by Uberbah · 2016-09-25 05:52 · Score: 2

Or maybe you could stop being a racist shit. Black men use drugs at the same rate as white women, yet are 45 times more likely to serve time. Because of selective enforcement, which leads to a neat loop that took racists like yourself some time to perfect: minorities make up more of the convictions, so they are targeted more for arrest by cops. Which makes them more likely to be convicted...
Re:Should they start sooner... by lamer01 · 2016-09-25 11:12 · Score: 1

Out of 700 or so people killed by Police so far this year under 200 are black. So Police kill a lot of people regardless of color. It's just the BLM and the media make it sound like Police kill Black people exclusively. In the US Police kill a lot more people than vice versa. The narrative needs to change.
Re:Should they start sooner... by aaarrrgggh · 2016-09-25 13:43 · Score: 1

There is no way of knowing if these statistics are a sampling error due to enforcement issue, or some "inherent" factor (namely socioeconomic).
Re:Should they start sooner... by iggymanz · 2016-09-25 16:30 · Score: 1

You write a completely false statistic then claim racism.
nice.
you are part of the problem, denying the magnitude of the problem.

Nobody paid attention by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · 2016-09-25 03:57 · Score: 1

open source

You mean they didn't put together a bidding process for a $2.8 billion dollar project which will come in at 437% overbudget and finally be ready in 2028?

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(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.

Re:Nobody paid attention by Hognoxious · 2016-09-25 06:15 · Score: 1

It's the police, not the Air force.

--
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."

Re:Now? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-09-25 04:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

Up to this time the police have relied on the "Blue Line", which is to say their claim to infallibility which is backed up by every officer in the force agreeing on whatever an officer says. If an officer says it was a gun and not a book, then they all say they saw a gun.

In the past they believed that the was necessary to keep the public giving them money and respect

Nowadays, people are more familiar with quality improvement and the need to identify errors in order to correct them. The see a bunch of people in an organization claim to be faultless is spurious, to catch them in repeated lies due to cell phone videos is completely invalidating

If we can have six sigma (one error in a million products) on every commercial product that we own, then why the fuck can these same methods not be applied to the police

Fuck their egos and sense of infallibility, they are just another product that we purchase and we deserve higher quality

Re:Well, that's a start. by BarbaraHudson · 2016-09-25 04:17 · Score: 3, Informative

Won't make a difference. The Guardian's investigation showed that even police forces that were supposed to record all police shootings didn't, and that includes fatal shootings.

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"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.

We need more by Anonymous Coward · 2016-09-25 04:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

Use of force tracking with detailed reports has been the standard in the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation (CDCR) for a long time, including written reports from all employees who have witnessed the use of force. But for police, much more has to be done. Body cameras must be used, with files uploaded to the report and the reports must be "bundled" and cross referenced to allow administrators and the public to identify bad cops.

Is "serious" defined? by bogaboga · 2016-09-25 04:40 · Score: 1

...and help track every time officers use force that causes serious injuries...

Who defines "serious?" They or the party involved? They mention something that excludes bruises...but I could be seriously psychologically or mentally harmed.

It's a positive first step if I may add.

Re:Is "serious" defined? by CrashNBrn · 2016-09-25 11:52 · Score: 2

Easy, if it does more than (2d8+1) 17 damage, then it would be a critical injury.

Re:Well, that's a start. by ArmoredDragon · 2016-09-25 05:02 · Score: 2

1. Really surprised that all violence against civilians isn't recorded, whether necessary or otherwise.

I don't think that it isn't recorded, rather I think this is more of a tool to make statistical gathering/reporting easier. Everything the police do that involves some kind of formal report is recorded somewhere in excruciating detail, but in the absence of something like this, I doubt there's any kind of detailed statistical gathering.

By excruciating, what I mean is this: I did a police ride along once, and everything that involves some kind of citation, no matter how small, invariably requires a solid minimum of 30 minutes worth of sitting at a computer and typing, detailing literally everything that the cop did, saw, heard, etc. The cop I did my ride along with didn't even like to give out speeding tickets because it's that much of a pain in the ass. In fact, we got called to help out some girl who drove the left side of her truck on top of a median and flattened both of her left tires, and I was in one of the two cars that responded. She technically broke the law, (I don't recall which one) but they weren't going to write a ticket. However she indicated that she wanted to make an insurance claim, and so the cops told her that if she wanted to make one they'd have to issue a citation, which would include points on her driver's license and a fine. Otherwise she could fix her tires on her own dime. She of course opted for the later, thus saving the cops involved a lot of paperwork (and time) so that they could respond to other calls.

And from my observation in all of this, the only time cops tend to issue citations for minor infractions is when they have a quota that they need to fill for promotion or other purposes (ticket quotas are banned in my state, by the way, except in Indian reservation where I've literally been issued a citation for going 2mph instead of a COMPLETE stop for a stop sign, aka a rolling stop) or if the cop has a chip on his shoulder and just wants to be a dick, or if they notice you doing something blatantly unsafe (like driving unreasonably faster or slower than the rest of traffic -- I drive 80mph all the time where the freeway is 65, and cops I've driven past never care because that's practically the same speed everybody else drives.)

Anyways, what I'm getting at, is that if there's violence or other injury caused by a cop, 99.999% chance there's a formal (and likely very detailed) report.

Re:Now? by sir-gold · 2016-09-25 06:11 · Score: 2

It wasn't just cops backing each other up.

In the past, in cases where it was literally the cop's word against the defendant, the judges always assumed that the cop's testimony was more likely to be true.

Records by sir-gold · 2016-09-25 06:18 · Score: 1

I can see it now, this is going to turn out just like the federal seizure database

California is going to put all this data into the system, and 10 years from now, someone is going to ask "how many people have been killed by police so far?", and the police are going to say "We don't know, because it would crash the system if we tried to look it up".

Re:Well, that's a start. by Uberbah · 2016-09-25 06:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

Obey the instructions of the police officer and let your lawyer / attorney / barrister handle any disputes. The solution does not even require technology. Priceless.

And when the cop shoots you for following his "lawful orders"? How about when they shoot you before saying anything, like Tamir Rice or John Crawford?

No amount of authoritarian bootlicking will save your ass from a cop bent on shooting you.

Re:Well, that's a start. by davester666 · 2016-09-25 06:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

Yeah. Hell, the ONLY reason these things are even making the news is because there is a/v evidence that it happened. But these things didn't just start happening now that portable video cameras are everywhere. They've been happening ALL ALONG, and the police have just been lying about it.

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Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!

Re:Now? by Anonymous Coward · 2016-09-25 08:10 · Score: 1

The police, the prosecutors and the judiciary all play a hand it in

And in many cases they are washing each other's hands as well

Re:Well, that's a start. by Anonymous Coward · 2016-09-25 10:43 · Score: 1

Are the majority of police officers reasonable human beings? Yes.

[Citation needed] A simple examination of the rampant practice of "good" cops participating in coverups, committing perjury, and planting/fabricating evidence in the defense of "bad" cops will paint a very different picture.

Re:Well, that's a start. by evilviper · 2016-09-25 16:46 · Score: 2

Of your three cases, the officer in the first is facing criminal charges with up to 20 years in jail. Obviously the system works.

The second two were running around in public with realistic looking guns, and didn't quickly do what the officers ordered... Are you suggesting that people should be able to point fake guns at cops with no repercussions? Too many officers get killed on the job, already. Requiring psychic abilities in use of force decisions will make that number sky rocket.

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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant

Re:Well, that's a start. by lars_stefan_axelsson · 2016-09-25 19:54 · Score: 1

I am no authoritarian bootlicking servant. In 99% of police interactions if you comply with their instructions, you will not be injured or worse... Are the majority of police officers reasonable human beings? Yes.

99% is far too weak a standard here (and don't even get me started on "majority"). One in a thousand is also too much (due to the base rate fallacy, look it up). One in a hundred thousand is a safe conservative estimate.

So, you're about three orders of magnitude off...

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Stefan Axelsson

Re:Well, that's a start. by cryptizard · 2016-09-25 21:52 · Score: 1

There is no evidence that they were pointing the guns at cops. They were simply carrying the guns. And, surprise, Ohio is an open carry state! So even if the guns were 100% real, the cops did not have the justification to shoot those people. There are white people occupying Chipotle with assault rifles but they never get shot. I wonder why?

At this rate... by MitchDev · 2016-09-26 00:35 · Score: 1

No one is going to become a cop anymore. And if people though the police were tough on criminals, wait till they meet the citizen posse's who will NOT give the suspect a chance to repeat offend...

Re:At this rate... by david_thornley · 2016-09-26 08:21 · Score: 1

If you mean that people who want to become police officers to help them be bullies don't apply, that alone would solve a lot of the problem.

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Re:At this rate... by MitchDev · 2016-09-27 00:44 · Score: 1

No, no one is going to want to take the risks involved in being a cop, for the low pay and the kinds of scumbags the cops have to deal with and the constant stream of hate from the media and the criminals trying to use their skin color as a "it's racism, I didn't do nuttin'!" get-out-of-responsibliity-free card.
I side with the cops barring any sort of glaring video+audio evidence.
Re:At this rate... by david_thornley · 2016-09-27 04:01 · Score: 1

Other countries seem to have little difficulty getting enough police officers while holding them accountable. Is the US a sink of barbarism, that you say we can't?

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Re:At this rate... by MitchDev · 2016-09-27 04:43 · Score: 1

You don't have the level of distrust in police either.
It's OK, you're still people, just not Americans, so you don't really count :)
Re:At this rate... by david_thornley · 2016-09-28 04:07 · Score: 1

So, what you're saying is that it's difficult to increase the accountability in the system, since it's easier to hire accountable police officers if they're more trusted, and accountability raises public trust? We've already done that to some extend, with dash and body cams, and some changes to make it easier to prosecute police for crimes, and departments haven't quit en masse. I'd suspect that most police know that being held accountable for serious crimes isn't going to hurt them, since they won't commit such crimes.

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes

Re:Well, that's a start. by MitchDev · 2016-09-26 02:22 · Score: 1

Not to mention, did the cops identify themselves and give some sort of order? Or did they just open fire in surprise?

If a cop tells you to put your gun down, IT DOESN'T MATTER if it's either "not a real gun" or a "legally owned and carried gun", you PUT THE GOWN DOWN, PERIOD.

It's not that hard.

Re:Now? by Migraineman · 2016-09-26 02:33 · Score: 1

In the US, police officers are sworn "officers of the court." Functionally, they are an extension of the court system. As such, their testimony may be admitted as evidence, where your common-citizen's testimony may not. That's usually the bias. Additionally, the courts tend to expect that their officers, being sworn, are operating to the rules and limitations imposed on them by the legal system. If that's not the case for the vast majority of situations, the legal system comes apart at the seams.

Re:Well, that's a start. by cryptizard · 2016-09-26 07:44 · Score: 1

They got out of the car and immediately opened fire. It's on surveillance tape.

Re:Well, that's a start. by david_thornley · 2016-09-26 08:08 · Score: 1

You seem to be saying that the trained police get to be impulsive and act out of fear, while untrained civilians are required to act responsibly and intelligently, and obey orders regardless of whether they can hear or perform them. Do you think this is rational?

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes

Re:Well, that's a start. by Uberbah · 2016-09-26 12:57 · Score: 2

Racist editor entrenched wikipedia articles is never a good citation nor a good source of knowlege.

Racist projection and hand waving noted. Cops are quite happy to screw over or murder innocent white people as well - just ask Michael Morton, Kelly Thomas and Cameron Todd Willingham.

Re:Well, that's a start. by evilviper · 2016-09-26 15:11 · Score: 1

The video has no sound. It was certainly a quick encounter, but the officers swear they ordered him to show his hands 3 times, and the video doesn't show enough to contradict their statement. There are no other witnesses to contradict them, either.

Non-experts analyzing videos often come to completely wrong conclusions. The conspiracy theories around the JFK assassination come to mind...

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Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant

Re:Well, that's a start. by Agripa · 2016-09-26 16:30 · Score: 1

"As a country, we must engage in an honest, transparent, and data-driven conversation about police use of force," California Attorney General Kamala Harris said in a news release.

Obey the instructions of the police officer and let your lawyer / attorney / barrister handle any disputes. The solution does not even require technology. Priceless.

So you mean let your lawyer handle burying you in your grave?

Re:Well, that's a start. by Agripa · 2016-09-26 16:53 · Score: 1

In 99% of police interactions if you comply with their instructions, you will not be injured or worse.

Oh good. So only 1% of the time will I be injured or worse. And only in 1% of of the time when people are detained or arrested will they be injured or worse. That percentage is completely unacceptable.

Are there overjealous, brutish police officers? Yes, undoubtedly. Are the majority of police officers reasonable human beings? Yes.

The guards in the Standford Prison Experiment were reasonable human beings. This problem has nothing to do with the character of the officers. They are *trained* to act like thugs, to steal property, to evade the law, and extenuate circumstances to justify their own actions. The difference between law enforcement and common criminals is law enforcement expects your sanction of their actions. Common criminals are more honest.

The only recourse is to *always* exercise your 4th, 5th, and 6th amendment rights during *every* interaction with law enforcement with absolutely no exceptions. Of course doing this will get you injured or worse as well.

Re:Well, that's a start. by MitchDev · 2016-09-27 00:42 · Score: 1

Key factor. THe video without the corresponding audio makes it kinda useless since there is so much left out of this particular equation...

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