Apple is 'Intransigent, Closed and Controlling' Say Banks (afr.com)

Apple is increasingly trying to get banks to implement its Apple Pay mobile payments solutions, but some banks are avoiding Cupertino giant's offer, saying that the company is "closed and controlling". From a report on Financial Review: Three of Australia's big four banks have described technology giant Apple as being "intransigent, closed and controlling" and accused it of attempting to freeload on their contactless payments infrastructure while slowing innovation in digital wallets. In an increasingly acrimonious dispute, Commonwealth Bank of Australia, National Australia Bank, Westpac Banking Corp and Bendigo and Adelaide Bank are arguing that the engineering of Apple iPhones prevent them from delivering mobile wallets to millions of customers. This is because Apple Pay is the only application that works with the iPhone's "near field communication" (NFC) antenna, which communicates with payment terminals. In their latest, 137-page submission filed with the competition regulator, the banks argue that by locking them out, "Apple is seeking for itself the exclusive use of Australia's existing NFC terminal infrastructure for the making of integrated mobile payments using iOS devices. Yet, this infrastructure was built and paid for by Australian banks and merchants for the benefit of all Australians."

Comments

I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

We don't need yet another middle man charging yet another fee. And no, Apple Pay is not free for the end user. There is a hidden fee charged to the bank, which end up being charger to the merchant, which end up being charged to the consumers one way or another.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[bondsbw]

Competition is good. But the competing products and services aren't always good.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[barc0001]

Same with "rewards" programs, Airmiles, etc. That stuff isn't free either. Merchants get hit for it, and end up passing that on to everyone in the form of inflated prices. Seriously, how could they not? If a merchant's margin on something is 10% and paying for it with a cashback card takes 1% on top of the 1-3% already charged for using the credit card, of course the merchant's going to do something about that vanishing margin.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[bbeagle]

Apple Pay charges merchants 0.15% which is right in line with MasterCard, Visa, American Express and Discover. https://www.cardfellow.com/cre...

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Old97]

Apple Pay doesn't charge the merchants at all. It's the card issuers who pay Apple and they are will to do so because Apple Pay is much more secure than their own systems - chips and strips. It saves the banks money because it drastically reduces the fraud rate. So, no consumers are not paying for this. Another feature of Apple Pay (and Google's version) is that you aren't tied to a bank, a credit card (VISA, MC, etc.). That's what the banks don't like. They want to own the relationship.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[SolemnLord]

Another feature of Apple Pay (and Google's version) is that you aren't tied to a bank, a credit card (VISA, MC, etc.).

I'm not following your thinking here. You still need either a credit or debit card to be able to use Apple Pay (and I'm assuming Android Pay as well). I'm no less tied to my bank than I was before. I'm less tied to a physical card, but that's hardly the same thing.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the fee Apple gets is part of the percentage that the payment processor charges.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[oji-sama]

No, the fee Apple gets is part of the percentage that the payment processor charges.

Somehow I feel this will encourage the payment processor to increase the percentage from the original.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Anonymous Coward]

Because after a while you are no longer thinking do they accept Mastercard, Visa, or Amex. You are thinking do they take apple pay. When you pull out your payment method, people aren't seeing the Credit logo, they are seeing an iPhone or Android variant. This is about mind share.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[SolemnLord]

Fair enough! I'm looking at this as a Canadian, where Interac (our debit payment system) has been ubiquitous my entire adult life- literally the only time I can't use it up here is with Square- so worrying about if they'll take a certain card* honestly feels absurd to me.

*Not everyone has an NFC-capable payment, though, and some of them are finicky enough that I have to pull the card out anyway.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[saloomy]

Apple Pay is a net-positive value to the consumer, because the risk rates are lower. As a merchant, your processing charges are smaller with Apple Pay than with swipe or web form. Apple has innovated to create Apple Pay by making contactless payments simple to manage and administer, creating the platforms and hardware to use them (phone, watch), and bringing tokenization to the payment processing system (true Apple Pay vs. just NFC payment).

Another net positive for the consumer (IMHO, depends on who you ask), is that merchants can't track one-time payments for goods, because the payment info always change. This was the primary sticking point between walmart, et al, and the current crop of mobile wallets. They created MCX specifically so they would obtain mobile payments and still retain the data analytics that consumer spending gives these retailers.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

Good point, but I also hope that all this reward programs will die to. I think it should be outlawed to force a merchant not to charge more to the customer when you pay using a reward card. This way you would see how many customers are interested in paying 2% more to get 0,5% worth of Air Miles that can't be used on all flights.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

Apple Pay isn't new competition. It's a new middle man in the credit card payment processing.
If Apple Pay bypassed Visa/Mastercard completely then I'd be all for it.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[serviscope_minor]

Apple Pay is a net-positive value to the consumer, because the risk rates are lower.

My credit card already indemnifies me against fraud, so the risk is already negligible.

As a merchant, your processing charges are smaller with Apple Pay than with swipe or web form.

Really? The fees are better than Amex, worse than debit cards. IOW they're about in line with other credit cards.

Apple has innovated to create Apple Pay by making contactless payments simple to manage and administer

Contactless payments were already simple to manage and administer.

creating the platforms and hardware to use them (phone, watch)

Um, how is creating contactless payment hardware innovation when contactless payments were already very widespread.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

Except the USA, pretty much every one has moved out of the magnetic swipe payments. Apple Pay do not have enough benefit over regular chip+pin (which can also be contact-less) cards to justify yet another middle man.

And Apple Pay will never replace chip+pin cards simply because not everybody has an iPhone. Therefore the global payment system will always need to support payments method others than Apple Pay. A castle is as insecure as its weakest door. Apple Pay doesn't address the problem of the weak door at all, and therefore adds no added security to the global payment system.

It does have some privacy benefits. But go ahead and charge that 0.3% (or whatever) fee directly to the customer and see how much the average user cares about that. Why do you have to force that fee down the throat of those who do not want it?

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

You are still tied to a bank and a credit card. You are just being tied to Apple as well (a 3rd middle man).

And it doesn't reduce the fraud rate because banks and merchants still have to support chips and strips.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

Then it's even worse as a merchant needs to support all three of mastercard, visa and amex to be "apple pay" compliant.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Anonymous Coward]

Its a middleman that i not collecting data and on selling it to advertisers.

THAT is a large part of the bitching, the Banks get a secure payment, but they no longer get what it was for. This buggers up their marketing/selling of your info.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Aighearach]

I leverage this as a "vote with your wallet" factor; small local business I want to support? I'll pay with debit and lower their transaction fees. Chain store I didn't really want to shop at, but they already displaced the local supplier? Credit, and I get 1% back.

If you had a choice between "universe with `reward' programs" or "universe without," then you'd be paying for the rewards. When we're stuck in a universe that has them, and that has unified prices, well then no, everybody even cash customers are paying for the average transaction fee, and the person with the rewards card is paying less.

At employee-owned businesses like regional chains Winco and Bi-Mart, I always use debit and save them the fees.

At locally-owned gas stations with lower prices they'll have a cash price and a credit price. The big chains don't bother, because they have enough volume to pay much lower transaction fees.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Carewolf]

Why? You don't like competition?

No I think he wants it to die because he likes competition. As long as Apple has their own system they will not allow competition on the world's most widely used mobile platforms.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

Apple Pay doesn't charge the merchants at all. It's the card issuers who pay Apple and they are will to do so because Apple Pay is much more secure than their own systems - chips and strips. It saves the banks money because it drastically reduces the fraud rate. So, no consumers are not paying for this.

The banks are not willing to do so. They do it because they are forced to do it. That's why Apple Pay is not available in most countries.
Banks do not want Apple Pay. Users want Apple Pay. Because they think it's cool. And it appears free (even if it's not). When one bank start accepting Apple Pay, users want to move to that bank. So other banks react by offering Apple Pay too. And all banks pay the fee. The fee is passed to the merchant, and in the end to the consumer.
In the end, everybody loose but Apple.

The payment system is exactly as it was before, using the very same terminals, no less hackable, the chip+pin and contactless payments options remain available. The only thing that changed is that there is a new middle man and a new fee.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[SolemnLord]

My credit card already indemnifies me against fraud, so the risk is already negligible.

Apple Pay prevents fraud through its use of one-time codes, which is different from you being protected from fraud after the fact.

Contactless payments were already simple to manage and administer.

It's slightly more convenient (very slight, but you still notice when you have to pull out your card), and more secure, as I have to verify my identity either 1. through Touch ID as I hold the phone when making payment or 2. entering my Watch's passcode at the start of the day. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in Canada debit contactless payments require a PIN every three transactions to reduce fraudulent charges from card theft and Apple Pay tied to a debit card does not, tacitly admitting that it's more secure.

Um, how is creating contactless payment hardware innovation when contactless payments were already very widespread.

Yeah, it's not really especially innovative. The ease-of-use and security factors plus Apple's shine, however, acted as a convenient way for consumers to apply some pressure to banks/merchants to update payment systems in the US.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Old97]

When you use Apple Pay, no one can skim your card and use it. No one can see your card number or any personal information. The possibility of using Apple Pay in a fraudulent transaction is close to non-existent without physical possession and control over your devices. That's why it reduces the fraud rates. You can add and remove cards from Apple Pay as you please and you can choose which card you use (override the default you set) when you do the transaction. So if you change banks or cards you don't install another app and set it up as you would if you used bank apps.l That's why these banks don't like it. Despite the complaints from some merchants about not getting access to their customers data, Walgreens has implemented a loyalty/discount card for Apple Pay. You can - if you choose - use the card to get your points/discounts what ever before using the credit card you choose to pay with. So, it's actually possible to share your data with a merchant to get benefits - but only if you choose to do so. They can't get it without you loading their card in Apple Pay and using it. Android Pay doesn't have all the privacy safeguards and the charges pass through Google instead of going direct to the bank as with Apple Pay so they know everything. Other than that (a big that for me) the mechanics of it are similar.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[jittles]

Apple Pay doesn't charge the merchants at all. It's the card issuers who pay Apple and they are will to do so because Apple Pay is much more secure than their own systems - chips and strips. It saves the banks money because it drastically reduces the fraud rate. So, no consumers are not paying for this. Another feature of Apple Pay (and Google's version) is that you aren't tied to a bank, a credit card (VISA, MC, etc.). That's what the banks don't like. They want to own the relationship.

Apple Pay is, on the whole, no more secure than EMV NFC. At least not for a card present scenario. It's a little more secure for online purchases.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Solandri]

It saves the banks money because it drastically reduces the fraud rate. So, no consumers are not paying for this

Banks and credit card companies do not pay for fraud. They've set it up so the merchants pay for fraud. If you spot a fraudulent transaction on your card, request a chargeback, and the bank approves it, the merchant is out the money and the merchandise - they've paid for the fraud. The fees the banks and credit card companies collect pay for transaction costs, and for people who default on paying back their credit card debt.

Also, it's disingenuous to claim the merchant or customer does not pay for these fees. The credit card companies got laws passed making it illegal for merchants to charge an extra fee for credit card transactions. Consequently when you buy something with a credit card, it's the same price as if you paid in cash (a rare exception being stores which use the "cash discount" loophole). So the fee is coming straight out of the merchant's markup on the item sold - the merchant is paying for the fee. If you want to kick it up one more level, the merchant has to raise its prices to compensate for this reduced effective price markup. So the fee is coming out of the customer's wallet, with cash customers subsidizing the fee for credit card customers since their transactions do not incur the fee, yet they still pay the higher price.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[DogDude]

So, all you have to do is to give all of your banking info to Apple. Yeah, that's totally secure! They're known for being a really great bank.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Hognoxious]

Apple's fee is a small part of your arsoul

FTFY.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Old97]

It''s not the banks who resist; it's the merchants. When Apple Pay was first introduced it was with blessing of most of the big banks in the U.S. Several, like Chase touted it as the safest and most secure way to use a credit card in existence. Merchants have resisted primarily for 2 reasons: 1) they have ancient card strip readers and they don't want to pay to upgrade to something with NFC and or a chip reader; 2) they like collecting data on their customers so they can market/sell to them more effectively. An Apple Pay transaction is anonymous - unless you do like Walgreens and offer your customers a loyalty card that works in Apple Pay. Banks in the U.S. and in many countries have to pay for fraud losses, not the merchants so Banks have a huge incentive to get people to use systems like Apple Pay. A rule change in the U.S. says that merchants who don't support and use at least a smart chip reader will have to pay for any fraud incurred as a result. That's merchants' incentive to upgrade.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

You can add and remove cards from Apple Pay as you please and you can choose which card you use (override the default you set) when you do the transaction. So if you change banks or cards you don't install another app and set it up as you would if you used bank apps.l That's why these banks don't like it

I can't believe you believe in what you just said. When I change bank or card, I just change my card. No need to "install" or "configure" anything.

The possibility of using Apple Pay in a fraudulent transaction is close to non-existent without physical possession and control over your devices

They need your PIN and your device. Much like with a card. Except when paying online of course. How do you pay online with Apple Pay again? That's right, you need your card number and expiration date. The solution to online fraud is to have a password. Visa and Mastercard started implementing it.

In store you need the PIN, whether you have Apple Pay or not. Although when using Apple pay, the fingerprint is another possibility.
Credit card fraud is already so low that they allow, on purpose, contact less payment without PIN (for low amounts). They do it because it is faster. That's worth more than the frauds themselves. If fraud was such an issue, they would add PIN to contactless card payments. But they don't. It's a great sign that what Apple offers isn't worth 0.15-0.3% fee, not even close. It's even slower than a card contactless payment since you need to put your finger on the scanner. Finally, your phone need to be charged, turned on, and with signal.

The main advantage is therefore privacy. I wonder who is willing to pay 0.15-0.3% for that. Outside of Slashdot, I bet no one.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

Most countries have moved out of the magnetic strip payment option. We are still stuck with it mostly because of the USA. Otherwise it's only chip+pin and NFC.
The banks in countries outside of the USA are therefore resisting against Apple Pay as much as they can.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[vux984]

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in Canada debit contactless payments require a PIN every three transactions to reduce fraudulent charges from card theft and Apple Pay tied to a debit card does not, tacitly admitting that it's more secure.

I use contactless credit all the time and have never once ever had to enter a pin. I realize you said contactless *debit*; my wife does that but I never do, so i asked and she's NEVER had to enter a pin doing contactless *debit* either.

And Yes. In Canada.

Apple Pay tied to a debit card does not, tacitly admitting that it's more secure.

WTF? If you enable apple pay you are required to use an unlock or fingerprint to approve each transaction. So Applepay doesn't require a pincode because it requires a fingerprint scan or an unlock code.

It's slightly more convenient (very slight, but you still notice when you have to pull out your card)

As opposed to pulling out your phone? Which might occasionally have a dead battery. Or maybe its raining or frigid or sweltering and your fingerprint scanner won't read your finger; so you try that 3 times before giving up and entering the passcode....

Or maybe you have more than one card and you want to use a different card, so now you have futz around in settings to change which card to use.

Frankly I find my credit card much faster to use. I don't have to unlock it. I don't have do anything but tap and go. The smartphone payment systems are universally LESS convenient.

Yeah, it's not really especially innovative.

No its not. Its a good implementation. But its not innovative.

The ease-of-use and security factors plus Apple's shine, however, acted as a convenient way for consumers to apply some pressure to banks/merchants to update payment systems in the US.

While the refusal to allow the use of alternative (non-applepay) payment apps is anti-consumer/anti-competitive and should be stomped on.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[youngone]

Why? You don't like competition?

The issue here might be that the big 4 Australian banks really don't like competition. I live in a country whose banking is largely controlled by the same 4 banks.

My guess is Apple is used to taking the Lion's share of every transaction ,and the banks are too, so it's a squabble over who fleeces the consumer first.

Interestingly, I bank with the one not mentioned in the summary and I'm sure I saw an ad for Apple Pay when I used a cash machine the other day. I did not pay much attention because my iPhone is my work phone, so I wouldn't use Apple pay on it anyway.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Old97]

You don't give "all your banking information" to Apple. You scan your credit card and its sent to the bank that issued it. They approve it and your phone stores a code they bank created for the card installed on that device. Your data doesn't go to Apple. If you start by using the card you have for iTunes, of course Apple already has that. So Apple doesn't have your info nor does your device. Your device stores your code in a secure enclave on the chip. The OS can't get it either. Just the bank that issued the card. That's as secure as it gets.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Old97]

Please try to pay attention. You don't pay anything nor does the merchant. The transaction fee paid by the merchant remains the same regardless of whether you use a card or Apple Pay. The fee is paid by the banks which they are willing to do because its a lot cheaper than the huge losses due to fraud they've experienced with credit cards.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Old97]

There apparently isn't much bank resistance as Apple has been pretty successful signing them up. The chip and pin method is better than the magnetic strip we in the US have relied on so their fraud rates are much lower so yes the incentive is less; however the Apple Pay set up is still much more secure than chip and pin. When it starts to be used more on-line it will have much greater benefits for banks. On-line fraud and theft of information is a huge problem everywhere.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[SolemnLord]

And Yes. In Canada.

Totally willing to accept that I'm wrong on that (I was repeating what I've heard). I've never had a contactless debit (my card's getting old), so I jumped right from chip-and-pin to Apple Pay. So my bad.

As opposed to pulling out your phone?

I mentioned having a Watch, which is what I use. Pulling out a phone would arguably be easier than pulling out your wallet and then card, assuming you don have more than one contactless card (then you could just use your whole wallet. It's a minor convenience at best, but it's still a convenience.

Or maybe you have more than one card and you want to use a different card, so now you have futz around in settings to change which card to use.

On the Watch you literally just swipe to select the card you want. On the phone it acts like the Wallet app, with the default already selected. Any cards in the system have already been added beforehand, and the only reason to go into settings is to change the default card.

While the refusal to allow the use of alternative (non-applepay) payment apps is anti-consumer/anti-competitive and should be stomped on.

The thing is that I trust Apple to keep its secure enclave secure (and it's fair to argue that even that much is too much trust). I don't trust anybody else will. I'd love to see Apple open up the iPhone's NFC features, but at the same time I definitely don't want my payment information anywhere but the secure enclave. Hopefully a solution can be found.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[rbgaynor]

" A castle is as insecure as its weakest door. Apple Pay doesn't address the problem of the weak door at all" I assume from what you wrote (it's not particularly clear) that this weak door you refer to is chip and pin ("need to support payments method others than Apple Pay"). If so then Apple Pay does help address this. Banks set fees in part based on risk, if a safer option becomes available banks will tend to offer that safer system a better rate (or conversely raise the rates of less safe systems), encouraging the migration to safer (and cheaper) solutions. Don't forget when Apple Pay was introduced the roll-out banks came out and said that Apple Pay was extremely safe and the transactions were getting a rate that reflected that safety.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

I am perfectly aware of the fee structure, and detailed it perfectly in the very first post.
I just don't believe the banks will forfeit their profit. They will pass that fee down to the merchant, and then to the consumer. And I also don't believe this will bring down fraud. What will make a difference is to stop allowing magnetic stripes and have a password for online purchases. Both are possible (and being implemented) long before Apple Pay.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Old97]

Apple Pay does not use the card nor require its presence during the transaction. It does not pass or use your credit card number either. The code it uses is specific to the device and it's relationship to accounts and you is known only to the issuing bank. Any system that relies on the card and a pin still exposes your account number and your identity, does it not?

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

Put it another way. If it really saved costs (because of less fraud), then why is Apple forcing the banks/merchants not to add an extra fee for the use of Apple Pay? If it's so great, merchants would give you a discount if you used Apple Pay instead of chip and pin card payment, right? And such a clause in the contract would be useless.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

The weakest door is magnetic stripe. Chip and pin solved it.
Apple Pay is no more secure than chip and pin. In both cases, if you have the device/card and the pin, you can make a payment.

Don't forget when Apple Pay was introduced the roll-out banks came out and said that Apple Pay was extremely safe and the transactions were getting a rate that reflected that safety.

Again, that only happened in the US, because of the prevalence of magnetic stripes. In the rest of the world, the banks tried to avoid Apple Pay.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Luthair]

Apple isn't letting the basis use the phones NFC, the banks aren't letting apple use the payment system NFC. Seems fair to me.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Old97]

First point about fraud - not true in the U.S. at least If the merchant follows the banks procedures and system and the card is approved, its off the hook. If the merchant commits a fraud or whatever then the bank will deny payment and/or try to recoup payments made. The fee a merchant pays does not change depending on whether you are using Apple Pay, Android Pay or a physical credit card. So, accepting Apple Pay costs the merchant nothing extra nor does it cost the customer anything extra. The decision by the merchant to accept any credit card payments is the point when the card companies transaction fees come into effect. Apple Pay's fee comes out of the set fee charged by VISA, MasterCard, etc.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Luthair]

If the card has contactless then the fraudster only needs a powerful signal and a good antenna. Given phones die or break you aren't going to leave home without the card.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[thegarbz]

Um, how is creating contactless payment hardware innovation when contactless payments were already very widespread.

Oh no this is very innovative. It takes innovation to come up with something that is locked down to one service and needs to be negotiated and supported by banks.

Without this innovation all you're left with is something like Google Wallet which worked everywhere, even in Australia, even when it never launched in Australia, even after Google's attempts to block it in Australia.

THAT's innovation. A technology that works so well you lose control over it and it become part of the general and magically inter-operating kit.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[thegarbz]

Apple Pay prevents fraud through its use of one-time codes, which is different from you being protected from fraud after the fact.

Not to me it's not. Either way I'm off the hook.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

Apple has been somewhat successful but not for the security reason. It's because it's cool to pay with a phone so customers want it (as long as it's free!!!)

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[rbgaynor]

How do you pay online with Apple Pay again? That's right, you need your card number and expiration date. The solution to online fraud is to have a password. Visa and Mastercard started implementing it.

In store you need the PIN, whether you have Apple Pay or not.

Apple Pay works online, same security, same privacy protections. No card number or expiration date required. Apple Pay only requires a pin or fingerprint on the device, not on the POS terminal. Neither the pin or fingerprint data ever leaves the device. Passwords at a POS terminal (or ATM) are easy to skim.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

It does. But once you get rid of the legacy magnetic strip system, 99.9% of credit card frauds doesn't rely on this. They rely on having the card/device (doesn't matter if it's a card or a phone at this point) as well as the PIN. You still need to carry your credit card for places not accepting NFC and online purchases. So you can still get your card stolen, plus you can get your phone stolen too. That's less security overall, not more.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[BlackSabbath]

I'm sorry but that's just not true.
The two systems are vastly different in implementation. Google are acting as a financial intermediary for every transaction through use of a "virtual credit card" which is what is on your phone and what the vendors see (they never see your actual cards as they are only on Google'a servers). As a result, Google have access and knowledge of every detail of every transaction you make using their system. This aligns with their panopticon business model. By effectively acting as a middleman financial institution they don't need any agreement with banks etc. Every transaction you make actually becomes two 1. Google pays vendor, 2. Google charges your bank.

Apple are not doing this at all, instead they are securely storing your card details on the phone and communicating payment details to and from the vendor and your financial institution. Their system is designed so they don't store your card details nor know about your transactions. However this requires agreement with the financial institutions on the other end.
http://www.investopedia.com/ar...

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[rbgaynor]

While EMV can use tokenization, this extra security feature isn't necessarily standard. Apple Pay always uses tokenization. Online Apple Pay still uses tokenization, EMV cards fall back to "card not present" transactions.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

So when the online merchant ask for the expiration date, what do I enter if I want to use Apple Pay?
I'm sure a camera can get you entering the pin on your phone just like on terminals.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[brunes69]

... and when you are USING a MasterCard, Visa, etc via Apple Pay, you are paying DOUBLE.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[ahabswhale]

1) You may be indemnified against fraud but it doesn't mean the banks or merchants are. Generally, merchants end up eating that fraud.

2) The reported fee for Apple Pay is about .15%, which is vastly lower than any credit card (or debit card) and banks are fine with it because the reduced fraud more than pays for it.

3) Contact-less payments already existed but were nowhere near as secure.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[rbgaynor]

That assumes chip and pin systems are all using tokenization (they aren't).

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[ahabswhale]

Uh, your numbers are way off. The .15% is not the full swipe fee. Those start at 1.5% and go up from there.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[MachineShedFred]

Then clearly you've never been a victim of any kind of fraud.

It's a total pain in the ass to have to log into every single thing that does electronic billing, or every single place you've ever saved your credit card for convenience (Amazon, PayPal, etc.) and change it because some fuckhead tried to skim your card.

Skimming cannot happen with ApplePay, therefore the above simply could not happen, and I would not have lost several hours of my life to the inconvenience of payment card fraud.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[MachineShedFred]

Completely wrong. The only thing that makes the NFC payments that existed before and Apple Pay similar is that they both use NFC, and they are both doing contactless payment.

How they go about doing that is incredibly different, and to say they "copied" what Android was doing only demonstrates your complete lack of knowledge of the two systems.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[MachineShedFred]

Maybe because there's never been a service in the history of banking that some fuckhead banker hasn't tried to attach a fee to, and it was far easier to just nip that in the bud straight away?

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[MachineShedFred]

They don't ever ask you for that.

You hold your device over the payment terminal and give your fingerprint. The device shows a green check mark. The merchant's terminal then immediate shows an authorized payment and starts printing the receipt.

How is this hard to understand?

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[MachineShedFred]

Oh - online merchant. I haven't used Apple Pay online thingy in the new OS X so I can't comment on that.

I will also read more carefully.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[BlackSabbath]

It's ironic that you're calling Apple a middle-man when it's actually Google who are inserting themselves as a financial intermediary (were you aware that Google have issued you a virtual credit card?) and knowing every single transaction detail, which of course suits their panopticon business model. There's a reason they're not charging you for that privilege.

Apple are acting as a payment communication medium, keeping no details of your transaction and yes, charging for the privilege. Whether it's worth it is in the eye of the beholder.

This might help explain the differences between the two systems:
http://www.investopedia.com/ar...

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[BlackSabbath]

It's 100% the other way around. Google store your full card details and full transaction details on their servers. All of it. All the time.
It's why they're happy to take a hit. The ongoing value of that data FAR exceeds any per-transaction fee.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[mattack2]

You have to subsidize fraud happening. If you prevent that fraud in the first place, there's nothing to subsidize.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[mattack2]

In the United States, there is exactly such a law. There is a loophole where you can give a "cash discount", but the main posted price has to be the same.. and the only place I've ever actually seen the cash discount used was at some gas stations (back when I was a Luddite and drove a gasoline powered car). Even then, there were other gas stations very close by that were in effect the same price after the cash back (plus you get the convenience of using credit card).

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[gnasher719]

My credit card already indemnifies me against fraud, so the risk is already negligible.

Your credit card company may indemnify you, but it doesn't prevent credit card fraud. Someone is going to pay for it. With Apple Pay, the merchant (or it's thieving store employee) never gets your credit card number, so they can't use it for fraud. If the merchant's hardware is hacked, they still can't get your credit card number or your money. Hackers who manage to somehow decode the communication between iPhone and card terminal can't get your money.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[gnasher719]

Apple isn't letting the basis use the phones NFC, the banks aren't letting apple use the payment system NFC. Seems fair to me.

Unless you are the customer. The banks wouldn't know how to create a safe payment system. Apple does and has done it.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

There is no such law. You read me wrong. Apple and the banks forbids the merchants from charging more for credit cards. That should be outlawed, the merchants should be free to do that if they want to. This way, they could charge more for Apple Pay and see who is in.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[lgw]

Skimming cannot happen with ApplePay

It will be hacked in some other way instead. Oh, not for the first few years, which will be nice, but inevitably.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

so the answer is: you can't.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

here the fuckhead is Apple charging a fee

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

You clearly don't get what a middle man is.
Both Apple Pay and Google Pay deserve to die. They are both an extra middle man charging a fee.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[mattack2]

OK, starting in 2013, merchants could start charging, EXCEPT in 10 states..

from http://business.time.com/2013/...

And there are laws prohibiting these surcharges in 10 states: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Oklahoma and Texas.

So yes, there are laws. Just not federal laws like I had thought.

There ALSO were agreements between the credit card providers and merchants.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[jittles]

Apple Pay does not use the card nor require its presence during the transaction. It does not pass or use your credit card number either. The code it uses is specific to the device and it's relationship to accounts and you is known only to the issuing bank. Any system that relies on the card and a pin still exposes your account number and your identity, does it not?

EMV over NFC can do the same sort of card number tokenization that Apple pay uses. You can't replay an EMV NFC transaction, the best you could hope to do is intercept it and process it before the legitimate request goes through.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[vux984]

Totally willing to accept that I'm wrong on that

I'm not saying you are wrong; just that it has not been our experience. I've read that some retailers can require a pin even for contactless, or that a pin can be required for some transaction sizes... so there's definitely a few 'modes' it can operate under. But by default, (and in my experience) I've never been asked for a pin, and i the transaction is too large, I have to do chip and pin.

Nevertheless the point stands that its definitely not a general requirement of the system to enter in a pin regularly.

I mentioned having a Watch, which is what I use

Ok. I'll consider your argument from that context, and in that context you get points for convenience.

In any case most people have a smartphone now; and most people don't have a smartwatch and I'd go as far as to say most people don't really want one either. So I'd ask you to consider apple pay from that standpoint.

Pulling out a phone would arguably be easier than pulling out your wallet and then card,

I don't think it is.

My father has one of those iphone cases with the flap to hold cards -- the phone case doubles as his wallet. Its pretty much the ideal test case; He's got his DL, and a couple cards in it. Its faster for him to pull his phone out, pop the card and tap with it, then it is to use the phone itself to pay. He'll have his card, back in his phone case, and the phone back in his pocket before apple pay has authenticated.

I'm not quite sure why... perhaps because the phone itself is a distraction; he has to unlock it before using it, he has to wait for it to bring up the home screen; and then perhaps because the screen updates during the process he stops to looks at it again after the transaction...

where with the card it goes straight from phone/wallet to tap, and back into the case as soon as the machine registers it. There's no reason to stop and look at your visa card before and after a transaction... so maybe? I don't know. But it is consistently several seconds slower to use the phone from what I've observed.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[SolemnLord]

In any case most people have a smartphone now; and most people don't have a smartwatch and I'd go as far as to say most people don't really want one either. So I'd ask you to consider apple pay from that standpoint.

I've got no problem agreeing that pulling out a phone to pay is less convenient than having Apple Pay right on my wrist. Arguably a phone would be more convenient than a wallet for some people, since they're more likely to have their phone already out, but that's admittedly not something I'm paying attention to since it's moot in my case.

My father has one of those iphone cases with the flap to hold cards -- the phone case doubles as his wallet.

Wallet cases are a good point I hadn't considered.

re: your dad using Apple Pay, judging by your description I've got to ask: is he unlocking the phone and going into the Wallet app when he uses it? All that needs to be done is double-tapping the home button (even from lock), and I'm assuming he has Touch ID enabled on his phone. I don't want to be a "you're holding it wrong" Apple fanboy, but based on the description it seems like he's taking a lot of unnecessary steps.

Of course, he has his wallet case, so it's a non-issue.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fferreres]

Why not allow other Apps to access the NFC device? Why does it lock itself, that if you liked to make calls with your phone, then many kinds of new things can only be done by Apple? I am increasingly annoyed by Apple greediness and how every singles cable is always broken, how the phones always need cover and insurance, and by the general attitude of the company.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Karlt1]

Apple takes a small percentage of the fee that was already being charged by the credit card issuer. Apple negotiated that fee based on the premise that there is a lower incident of fraud when using an iPhone.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Karlt1]

Or maybe you have more than one card and you want to use a different card, so now you have futz around in settings to change which card to use.

No, you just put the phone up to the terminal and click on the card you want to use on your phone. All of your cards are displayed on your phone screen.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Karlt1]

And all the hypothetical scamster gets is a one time use token that they couldn't use.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Karlt1]

If your phone is stolen, the thief still can't use your credit cards on your phone unless they also steal your finger.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[jawtheshark]

You have to do that regardless, every few years, when you get a new card. I use a Web-only Mastercard. It used to be valid for one year. (They seem to have changed it, it's now valid for two years). I have no problem doing that. Usually, I just bother updating the card when a system tells me that my current card stored isn't valid any more. It grows organically over time.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[AmiMoJo]

Problem is you don't get a discount if you get a card that doesn't have rewards / cashback. In other words, people with poor credit ratings who can't get the best cards also end up paying the highest effective price.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

unless you have a PIN, isn't it?

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

They negotiated on the premise of what they can charge, period. That fee will end up being passed on to the consumer. If there was a cost saving (less fraud), then they wouldn't need to add a clause to the contract forbidding banks and merchants to charge more for Apple Pay.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

There ALSO were agreements between the credit card providers and merchants.

Which are still valid in most places including Canada.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Karlt1]

Apple never added such a clause. The clause that doesn't allow merchants to charge more for credit cards has been around forever.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Karlt1]

You can unlock the phone if you can guess the pin within the allowed number of times but Apple Pay requires touchid. The credit card information is stored in the secure enclave.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

Then I guess a different type of fraud is possible. Just not the one we are used to (capture pin on camera).

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

Apple added such a clause in their contracts with the banks. They didn't want the merchants to get charged more when they use Apple Pay, because they know it would mean the death of their payment method.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[swillden]

I'm sorry but that's just not true. The two systems are vastly different in implementation. Google are acting as a financial intermediary for every transaction through use of a "virtual credit card" which is what is on your phone and what the vendors see (they never see your actual cards as they are only on Google'a servers). As a result, Google have access and knowledge of every detail of every transaction you make using their system. This aligns with their panopticon business model. By effectively acting as a middleman financial institution they don't need any agreement with banks etc. Every transaction you make actually becomes two 1. Google pays vendor, 2. Google charges your bank.

Your information is out of date.

What you say was the mechanism that Google Wallet used, in its second version. The evolution of Google's NFC payment system went as follows:

1. The initial release used a secure element (essentially a smart card chip) and installed your actual credit card information in the SE, using the standardized EMV solution straight up. (EMV is EuroPay/Mastercard/Visa, a consortium that creates payment standards). Initially only Chase cards were supported because this approach requires support from the issuer.

In this version Google was not a middleman.

2. Due to banks being very slow to get on board with SE-based NFC payments, and due to lots of opposition from carriers (who wanted to become the new payments infrastructure, see ISIS/SoftPay), Google abandoned the SE-based solution and invented something called Host Card Emulation (HCE). In this model, your actual credit card information was kept off the phone entirely, stored only in Google's servers. A proxy card was used to make payments at the point of sale, using pre-computed single-use cryptographic tokens computed on the server and stored on the phone. The proxy card allowed Google Wallet to support any and all credit and debit cards -- in theory any payment mechanism that Google's back-end payment infrastructure could support.

In this version Google acted as a middleman, as you say.

3. AndroidPay deployed after ApplePay and uses a payment architecture very similar to ApplePay, called "network tokenization". The idea is that the interchange networks can produce cryptographic credentials which can be validated by the network, which then passes the validated transaction back to the card issuer. This means that the issuing banks have dramatically less work to do to support NFC payments than in the original EMV-specified model (the one used by Google Wallet). Network tokenization was under development when Google Pay deployed initially, but far from ready to go. Apple waited until it was before launching, and as soon as it was available Google shifted to it as well. They still work somewhat differently, in that Apple uses long-lived multi-use tokens stored in the secure enclave, while Google uses short-lived, single-use tokens stored in Android, and encrypted with a key kept only in RAM and re-downloaded after each reboot.

In this version Google is no longer a middleman.

I expect that a future iteration of AndroidPay will shift to using tokens stored in the Trusted Execution Environment (TEE), discarding the RAM-only key, but that will have to wait until all of the devices using AndroidPay have the TEE with the necessary software.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Karlt1]

What pin? When you pay with Apple Pay you don't use a pin on your phone. You use Touch ID.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

That's why I said a DIFFERENT fraud is possible. INSTEAD of capturing a pin on camera, you must:

-get someone fingerprints while sleeping
-cut his finger

two methods which are not possible with pin.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Maury Markowitz]

So after losing the original argument, you're now resorting to some magical future?

Let me know when your hair starts falling back in.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Maury Markowitz]

> justify yet another middle man :rolleyes:

You realize there's *always* a middle man on every card process, right?

Apple simply replaces some other company that almost certainly charges more.

And the reason the Oz banks are whining is that they negotiated a nice cushy fee between them and now here's Apple doing it for less.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[vux984]

I've got to ask: is he unlocking the phone and going into the Wallet app when he uses it?

He could well be doing it less than ideally.

So.. Unlocking it: yes. But actually going into the wallet app no. But he does wait after unlocking it for the home screen; to verify that it unlocked. He does have touchid enabled; it frequently takes 2+ attempts to unlock with it though; so he always makes sure its unlocked ~before~ putting it to the scanner. Maybe that's strictly unnecessary... but it seems to be how he (and most people) ive seen use it do it.

Arguably a phone would be more convenient than a wallet for some people, since they're more likely to have their phone already out

Fair enough.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Maury Markowitz]

> I think it should be outlawed to force a merchant not to charge more to the customer when you pay using a reward card.

This sort of hidden fee is precisely why drugs cost so much in the US.

YOU don't pay the real price for the drug, so what do you care?

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fferreres]

I can easily ditch my VISA for Mastercard...very VERY easily. The are commodities. I can't switch from iPhone for Android for payments without a HUGE mess in my life. It's a captive market. Apple is leveraging the network effect to reduce competition to 0 on their platform, unfairly and limiting my choices. Just like they charge 25%+ of every piece of software sold on iOS, they could change from 0.15% to 5% whenever Mastercard and VISA are out of the game. This can easily be seen with things like spotify, that have NO OTHER choice but to charge more on iOS. Does this price difference make me switch? Not yet. I am still bothered by how Apple can be a dictator, and isn't forced to allow competitors to compete with them in the platform for things Apple doesn't want to share.

The SECOND I can ditch iOS for something I like (Android is still not exactly what I want) I will.

Using Apple pay is validating Apple's bully attitudes and abusing practices and the banks are not dumb.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[vux984]

Do you have to unlock the phone to use apple pay? (or android pay for that matter)

Yes.

I can't imagine that being easier than taking out my wallet, clicking the button to eject my card, and holding it to the terminal.
Much faster than entering a 14 character password.

Yes, it's relatively tolerable if you are using a fingerprint unlock. But if you are using a long pin or passphrase to secure your device it's not exactly convenient.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

They do not replace anybody. You still need the bank, you still need visa/mastercard, you still need the terminal provider. Apple is a new, an extra middle man.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[fred6666]

pretty sure it's easy to fake. Some dead gloves work just fine on capacitive touchscreens and buttons

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[vux984]

All of your cards are displayed on your phone screen.

Right. My bad. You just have to futz with settings to change the default. But you still have to unlock the phone. And if you aren't using touchid that's going to slow you down. (And even touchid isn't perfect... )

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Karlt1]

You don't have to unlock the screen either. Once you tap on a terminal, you just tap on the card.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[lgw]

You're replying to my only post for this story (well, before this one), so I'm not sure what argument you think I've lost.

The first 2 generations of chip+PIN were hacked. The current one may be hacked, but organized crime can keep a secret for a while. It will stop, specifically, skimming, but so does chip+sig so that's not a big win. But that just shifts things to stealing the card or phone.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[vux984]

You don't have to unlock the screen either. Once you tap on a terminal, you just tap on the card.

Tap on the phone you mean? So that tap ISN'T touchid? Its just a physical contact required? Anyone could do it? Or is it doing an authentication.

Lets say you didn't want to use fingerprint to unlock, and prefer a passphrase (lots of good reasons for this).

Can you still use ApplePay? Do you just tap on the phone even without a fingerprint stored and it works? Or do you in that case have to enter the passphrase?

I get that you do have to 'unlock' per se, but you DO have to authorize the transaction by entering your 'unlock credentials' right? (which is essentially the same as unlocking) Or am I mistaken?

Also, this means NFC is active even when the phone is locked. That seems like needless battery drain, and needless security risk.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[Karlt1]

ApplePay requires TouchId. If you could just enter a pin on your phone to use Apple Pay, it would be no more secure than a credit card.

You can use a pass phrase to unlock your phone, but not for Apple Pay. You tap your phone to the terminal, it shows an image of your credit card - without the number - you can then either use Touch ID and use the default card or you can tap on the card you want to use and then use TouchId.

How is NFC always being active a security risk? The credit card information is stored in the secure enclave and is not available to any part of the system until you use your fingerprint. TouchId is tied directly to the secure enclave.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[cthulhu11]

Having to call one's bank and get someone to manually set up Apple Pay is a royal PITA though. My first thought when seeing this headline was "Banks are intransigent, closed, and controlling" say all who have had to deal with Wells Fargo or BoA.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[vux984]

"ApplePay requires TouchId. If you could just enter a pin on your phone to use Apple Pay, it would be no more secure than a credit card"

https://support.apple.com/en-c...

"To help ensure the security of Apple Pay, you must have a passcode set on your device and, optionally, Touch ID. "

So what happens if you opt not to use it? Since apparently that IS an option.

TouchID is a potential dealbreaker for a lot of people; because it is LESS secure than a passphrase. It's easier to spoof and the current legal environment appears to make it easier to be compelled to provide a touchid unlock than it is to compell someone to divulge their passphrase since the latter violates one's right to remain silent. While the former is more like being required to submit to having your fingerprints and photo taken.

http://mashable.com/2014/10/30...

"How is NFC always being active a security risk?"

Same way WiFi being on is a security risk. Or being plugged into a network is a security risk. If there is a flaw in the chipset/drivers/firewall/listening services/etc/etc that can be exploited there may be a way to do anything from crash the phone to gain access.

An attacker could also deliberately keep the phone in a higher power state as it repeatedly initiates communications with it to drain the battery. It just seems to me that its needless and unnecessary to have NFC on when the phone is locked.

That's not to say I think wifi should be off, and the phone stored in a lead box... but i do support minimizing the attack surface. And I can't really see any reason why NFC should be on when the phone is locked.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[thegarbz]

Then clearly you've never been a victim of any kind of fraud.

3 times in fact. Once in China which I discovered 3 weeks after when I got my credit card bill (one transaction for ~$15 the other for ~$4800). Once in Italy where I took a taxi and somehow was charged exactly $2000 for the privilege. And once while on a night on the town where I got home sans credit card which already had an $1200 charge on it by the time I called the bank.

It's a total pain in the ass to have to log into every single thing that does electronic billing,

Yep so zero for me. Most of the world does not revolve around credit cards and we have sane bank transaction systems.

or every single place you've ever saved your credit card for convenience (Amazon, PayPal, etc.) and change it because some fuckhead tried to skim your card.

I can't believe you're claiming the protective high ground and then saying that you save your card for convenience on online merchants. I thought you were afraid of fraud.

Skimming cannot happen with ApplePay, therefore the above simply could not happen, and I would not have lost several hours of my life to the inconvenience of payment card fraud.

3 times in my life I have been subjected to fraud on my card. I probably have lost a grand total of 15minutes of my life due to that. Comparatively I was delayed by 5 minutes coming out of the airport yesterday which meant I needed to wait 15minutes for the next train. Oh the calamity, Oh the humanity, Won't Apple come and save us with their incompatible abortion of a scheme that breaks something that universally worked everywhere a piece of plastic did beforehand.

Mind you how many hours of your life are wasted arguing on Slashdot?

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[thegarbz]

You have to subsidize fraud happening. If you prevent that fraud in the first place, there's nothing to subsidize.

If you prevent it by corporate agreements with a new middle man siphoning off more and more funds is there a net benefit? If you're that worried about subsidising fraud then your banks wouldn't have gone with chip+signature instead of chip+pin, something which has decimated fraud in other parts of the world.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[mattack2]

Yes there is, if the "siphoning" (scare word) is FAR FAR FAR less than the cost of the original fraud being prevented.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

I know this is old and no one will read this, but another reason banks AND merchants don't want this is info. You not only pay your money, but you are also bought and sold as a stream of products tied to a card. This is why loyalty cards exist. This is why target cuts you 5% on their card purchases This is why Target does not support apple pay.

Re:I hope Apple Pay will die

[Falconhell]

Here in .au, all contactless transactions above $100 require a pin.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[LordLucless]

You already posted that upthread, and were corrected. At least keep your fearmongering to once per thread.

Re: I hope Apple Pay will die

[John Bodin]

Apple pay does not REQUIRE touchid as many have said, from apples support site:

Apple Pay is safer than using a traditional credit or debit card. Every transaction on your iPhone or iPad requires you to authenticate with Touch ID or your passcode. Your Apple Watch is protected by the passcode that only you know, and your passcode is required every time you put on your Apple Watch.Oct 12, 2016
About Apple Pay - Apple Support
https://support.apple.com/en-u...

Use touchid or your passcode.

its difficult to dispute the position of Apple.

[nimbius]

There are more than four-thousand banking corporations in the Uniited States alone.
1. Does the aggregate of Australias banking industry authentically believe each corporation should be permitted their own programmatic implementation of contactless banking?
2. who or what will be liable for breeches in security? as of this foul year of our lord 2016 banks are often furiously reticent in disclosing security breeches let alone taking responsibility for them.
3. what if any qualifications does a banking institution have that define it as a cogent source for software? Apple has been developing quality hardware and software for a generation now.

Re:its difficult to dispute the position of Apple.

[cmiller173]

1. Yes, although they as well as most reasonable people realize that smaller institutions and even many large institutions will leverage the software acumen of third parties.
2. Whoever is at fault.
3. Banks and their partner corporations have been developing software for the management of financial transaction far longer than Apple has existed. Software did exist before the iPhone ya' know.

Re:its difficult to dispute the position of Apple.

[im_thatoneguy]

who or what will be liable for breeches in security?

Wouldn't it just be the bank who wrote the app? Seems obvious/simple. If the paypal app results in a loss of cash you blame paypal who wrote the app.

Re:its difficult to dispute the position of Apple.

[bondsbw]

I can't answer the first two, but

3. what if any qualifications does a banking institution have that define it as a cogent source for software? Apple has been developing quality hardware and software for a generation now.

Banks have been developing banking software for a long time. Apple has not. That's not to say their software development skills couldn't be transferred successfully, but for the moment I'd place higher trust in banks who understand quite well what the financial implications of poor security are.

FWIW I think a handful of systems is better than 4000, and is also better than 1 or 2. I like for instance that the US has a few credit card processors; enough to gain the benefits of competition but not so many that it is impossible to support the vast majority of users.

Re:its difficult to dispute the position of Apple.

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

what if any qualifications does a banking institution have that define it as a cogent source for software?

Seriously? You obviously haven't worked for any financial institutions, they employ lots of techies to run their computer systems. They are plenty capable of writing quality software.

Re:its difficult to dispute the position of Apple.

[unixisc]

If the banks are so egalitarian, why don't they simply support Apple Pay on the iPhone, but also work on supporting Android Pay, as well as Microsoft Wallet on as many phones as they can? Since customers who have iPhones automatically have Apple Pay, but those who have Androids or Lumias, the banks can work to ensure that their cards work w/ those as well

Re:its difficult to dispute the position of Apple.

[thegarbz]

1. No. But they believe that mobile pay systems should not be restricted and a negotiated contract between device manufacturers. Google Wallet worked for many years on contactless terminals in Australia. To us the fucked up implementation being pushed by Apple partnering with specific banks was just mindbogglingly stupid. But then the entire US banking system has us scratching our heads too.

Re:its difficult to dispute the position of Apple.

[bidule]

2. who or what will be liable for breeches in security?

As long as you wear your safety pants, the beach is secure.

Re:its difficult to dispute the position of Apple.

[jonwil]

As an Aussie, I only ever use "credit" (my Visa Debit card) for online purchases, for that rare case when someone takes Visa but doesn't take EFTPOS (e.g. the card readers on most vending machines) or in the case when I (or a staff member at a store) accidentally runs it up as "credit" or PayWave rather than EFTPOS.

There are still businesses out there that dont take EFTPOS or have a surcharge or a high minimum transaction but for those rare occasions I can still get cash easily enough.

Re:its difficult to dispute the position of Apple.

[AmiMoJo]

All my banks have started using the same shitty web interface and shitty apps. They do some minimal re-skinning, that's it. On the one hand it's good because I can write a Tampermonkey script to fix their stupid login screen and have it work on all sites, but on the other it's terrible because I have no choice if I don't like them. It seems that virtually all banks in the UK use the same platform now, and of course it's awful.

I also wonder what monoculture is doing to their security.

Banks Like Money

[TechyImmigrant]

>Yet, this infrastructure was built and paid for by Australian banks and merchants for the benefit of all Australians."

Bullshit. The infrastructure was paid for by merchants buying the equipment.

Banks have shown themselves incapable of passing on the reduced costs of electronic transactions to consumers and incapable of deploying secure payment schemes. This particular scuffle is everything to do with banks wanting to keep all the 2-5% transactions fees rather than share it with a phone vendor who has developed moderately secure payment hardware that is in the hands of millions of people.
 

Re:Banks Like Money

[Anubis IV]

Exactly. Keep in mind that these are the same Australian banks who recently asked to collude with one another in their negotiations with Apple over Apple Pay. They wanted a bigger cut and asked for permission to engage in otherwise illegal tactics in order to get it.

Thankfully, they were denied that permission by regulators last month, so it's unsurprising that in the weeks immediately following the government's refusal to let them collude we'd see them grasping at straws. Sure enough, here we are a few weeks later and we suddenly see some "news" from those exact same banks that tries to frame Apple in a bad light. Strange how that works.

It's almost as if somebody is trying to improve their standing at the negotiating table by smearing the company on the other side...

Re:Banks Like Money

[thegarbz]

Bullshit. The infrastructure was paid for by merchants buying the equipment.

Err not in Australia. The system is more like mobile phone contracts. The cost is rolled in there hidden somewhere but there's no opt out or opt in or even much variance. Merchant's didn't upgrade. They were sent new terminals by banks and the fees didn't change during the transition. It was a cost absorbed by the banking sector.

Re:Banks Like Money

[TechyImmigrant]

In the US they take between 3% and 5% of every fee, whether credit card or debit card or NFC phone payment.

Re:shit post

[cmiller173]

News to me, what other iPhone apps use NFC?

NFC Used Elsewhere

[0100010001010011]

the exclusive use of Australia's existing NFC terminal infrastructure

- Samsung Pay.
- Google Pay.
- NFC enabled credit cards.

Re:NFC Used Elsewhere

[cmiller173]

the exclusive use of Australia's existing NFC terminal infrastructure on IOS devices

- Samsung Pay.
- Google Pay.
- NFC enabled credit cards.

Fixed that for you.

Re:shit post

[cmiller173]

Re-read your post. this quote emphasis mine:

Apple is seeking for itself the exclusive use of Australia's existing NFC terminal infrastructure for the making of integrated mobile payments using iOS devices.

Basically Apple won't let other payment providers create their own apps for mobile payments and wants free use of the infrastructure on IOS devices.

Re:Wait, wat?

[ledow]

Yep.

Apple won't let any app use the NFC for payment.

Like they won't let any web browser app use anything but their web controls (Chrome on iPad/iPhone? Yeah, that's not Chrome. It's a UIWebView. The only other allowed alternative is a WKWebView control.

And these people are only just realising that Apple are closed and controlling?

Sounds just like Samsung and ISIS.

[mmell]

I can remember not too long ago when Google Wallet wouldn't run on my Samsung Note, only ISIS. Flashing the phone didn't make a difference because Google Wallet wouldn't run on anything but manufacturer installed OS (security, which makes perfect sense. If the phone is rooted or the OS has been modified in any way it becomes harder to assert the system is secure).

I note that nowadays, ISIS refers to something else. I wonder what ever happened to Samsung's ISIS?

Re:Sounds just like Samsung and ISIS.

[SolemnLord]

I wonder what ever happened to Samsung's ISIS?

I'm guessing an explosion was involved.

Re:Sounds just like Samsung and ISIS.

[Overzeetop]

It probably became Samsung Pay, which happens to work exceptionally well. Of course, if you root the phone it won't work as the system presumes that a compromised OS may have compromised the secure transaction chain. But in general it works better than anything out there because it works with the old-fashioned swipe terminals - no NFC needed (though it can work with those to, I believe).

Re:Sounds just like Samsung and ISIS.

[txsable]

ISIS payments became Softcard at the end of 2014, which was then purchased by Google and pretty much became Android Pay. It originally started as a partnership between mobile carriers.

Re:Sounds just like Samsung and ISIS.

[ItsJustAPseudonym]

All your phone belong to us!

Re:shit post

[TechyImmigrant]

The NFC terminals were paid for by the merchants. The terminals support several payment schemes.

It is in my interests as a person who pays for things and as a merchant who pays for and uses payment terminals that IPhone based NFC payments remain as secure as possible and letting thousands of different banks mess with it with thousands of different applications is counterproductive.

Look beneath the surface and you will see that this is about grabbing a larger share of the merchant's fee.
 

Re:Wait, wat?

[DaHat]

No, it does have NFC... you and I just can't use it for things like tap to pair, sending a contact, etc.

It's currently (still) locked down for Apple's exclusive use (ie Apple Pay).

Re:Wait, wat?

[pr0t0]

Apple's refusal to allow another service to use NFC for payments reminds me of something sci-fi author Jerry Pournelle once said of the iPhone: Paraphrasing "Everything the iPhone is designed to do, it does flawlessly. It's just that anything else is utterly impossible."

Intransigent

[grasshoppa]

intransigent
intransjnt,intranzjnt/
adjective
1.
unwilling or refusing to change one's views or to agree about something.
synonyms: uncompromising, inflexible, unbending, unyielding, diehard, unshakable, unwavering, resolute, rigid, unaccommodating, uncooperative, stubborn, obstinate, obdurate, pigheaded, single-minded, iron-willed, stiff-necked
"the regime remained intransigent in its opposition to wider participation in the political process"
noun

...because I had to look it up. :D

Re:Intransigent

[Carewolf]

intransigent
intransjnt,intranzjnt/
adjective
1.
unwilling or refusing to change one's views or to agree about something.
synonyms: uncompromising, inflexible, unbending, unyielding, diehard, unshakable, unwavering, resolute, rigid, unaccommodating, uncooperative, stubborn, obstinate, obdurate, pigheaded, single-minded, iron-willed, stiff-necked
"the regime remained intransigent in its opposition to wider participation in the political process"
noun

...because I had to look it up. :D

Sounds they could put the Apple logo in the dictionary under intrasigent. It fits them on both their positive and negative sides.

Re:Intransigent

[hcs_$reboot]

I had to look it up. :D

because you're a grasshoppa :-)

Switch to Windows!

[somenickname]

If they are tired of closed systems, they should just switch to Windows. It's "the most open platform there is"! https://tech.slashdot.org/stor...

Re:Banks Hate (lack of) Control

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree. I like this quote:

> This is because Apple Pay is the only application that works with the iPhone's "near field communication" (NFC) antenna, which communicates with payment terminals

If I use NFC for payment related things I don't want another app touching it either. Apple alone does better with security than relying on the bank's developers, the independent app's developers, the terminal manufacturer, and the phone manufacturer (whether Apple or someone else) to all work together. This is why (IMHO) Android has most of its problems--you can't count on each phone manufacturer and the mobile data company to work together to process timely updates even if they just have to reference Google's production code base.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Defending their feud

[jalvarez13]

Well, it's not like the australian banks are doing their best to improve market competition...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10...

good!

[ooloorie]

Banks are finally meeting their match in Apple.

If we're really lucky, there will be so much infighting between the two that both Apple and banks will become irrelevant for payment processing.

Talk about having big Cojones

[stevez67]

It takes a very special kind of vanity for a bank to accuse ANYONE else of being intransigent, closed and controlling. But then, it takes one to know one!

To Australian banks

[xenog]

Here I have the world’s smallest violin, and I’m playing it only for you.

Pot calling the keetle black

[XSportSeeker]

I mean, sure, Apple is probably intransigent. Nothing new there, it's the company that removed an universal standard from it's phone and dared to call the move "corageous".
But so what? We're supposed to take sides of banks, the most evil businesses in the world?
Let them screw themselves over.

Truth is, banks are only moving to contactless payments because people are adopting it now. Banks never cared about the benefit of it's costumers, they've been delaying tech and development of new systems for centuries now for their own profit.
Only because they are poised to lose money now that they are taking action. So f*ck them. They don't get to have the high moral ground on this one.

I hope Apple manages to shut them off the platform. People who are not willing to get locked inside Apple's walled garden won't buy into the system anyways.

Re:Pot calling the keetle black

[CanadianMacFan]

The banks where you are may be only moving to contactless payments now but in Canada we've had them for many years now (at least 5, probably more). We've have chip and PIN for even longer. The banking system in every country/region is different.

Re:shit post

[cmiller173]

But it is not likely that thousands of different banks would mess with it. The more likely scenario is that the thousands of different banks would work with a handful of providers of software which would provide custom skinned but still the same underneath applications. The users of the iPhone should get to choose their provider.

You are right though, it is about (Apple) grabbing (or keeping) a larger share of the merchant's fee. They tried to do the same thing in the ebook market, and ended up out $400M for their un-competitive practices, of which I got my meager $4.35.

"Duh."

[SecurityGuy]

Says anyone who has been an Apple customer.

Re:Apple is the most open platform that there is..

[cmiller173]

Got me. I actually went to check and see if their was a "LinuxPay".

CurrentC to the rescue

[m0s3m8n]

I hear CurrentC is available. Buy the company and produce your own vendor-agnostic platform. F'ing banks can kiss my shiny metal ass.

Re:shit post

[BigBuckHunter]

Look beneath the surface and you will see that this is about grabbing a larger share of the merchant's fee.

Indeed. This appears to be an Australian issue only, because they have only a few banks that collude and fix the prices of transactions. Apple is cutting into their precious monopoly. While I'm in the US and am unlikely to visit Australia anytime soon, it's my opinion that these banks can EABOD.

Dear BANKS:

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want your digital wallet. I already have one. If you had been the first to innovate, that would be different. You weren't. I am already selecting my financial institution(s) based on their support of Apple Pay.

Really?

[nospam007]

"Apple is 'Intransigent, Closed and Controlling' Say Banks "

Then Apple is just like my bank.

Good

[rainer_d]

I pay almost everything in cash here (where I live, it' still a cash-world, thank god, with almost no limit on the amount you can pay cash) and Apple Pay has only recently been introduced anyway - but if I would use Apple Pay, I'd be thankful that random apps can't access the secure enclave and access that payment data.

MeeGo exclusive

[Comboman]

How do I get LinuxPay to work on my Android device?

Sorry, LinuxPay is currently only available on MeeGo phones.

Re:MeeGo exclusive

[The Conductor]

You jest, of course, but MeeGo phones did have Nokia's Ovi store (and its payment system) to buy apps and songs. It was never supported in the US (I had to claim I was British) and Microsoft shut it all down as part of their multi-billion dollar program to take over Nokia and flush everything good down the toilet.

"Innovation in digital wallets"

[derdesh]

Did anyone else read that as "customer behavior tracking technology"?

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[LynnwoodRooster]

Apple tore down the walls of its own garden a few YEARS ago, when they started allowing full-blown Sideloading of any ol' iOS App the User wanted.

They did? I can just go to an alternate app store and download an app to my phone and run it? I mean, I can do that on my Note 5, nothing else needed! So iOS now allows that, too?

"Whoever is a fault"

[Brannon]

So Apple gets to play referee between a thousand crappy banks and a billion angry customers? And as a special bonus many of those customers are going to blame Apple whether it's their fault or not! All for 0% of the transaction fee? What a deal!

I can't imagine why Apple isn't signing up for that.

Re:"Whoever is a fault"

[swb]

I think it's more likely that banks feel threatened by Apple usurping their stranglehold on transaction processing.

Not the other Aussie bank

[viperidaenz]

ANZ already had NFC payments on their Android app.
They have now just announced support for Apple Pay too

Apple is no more intransigent than YOU.

[zarmanto]

"Apple is seeking for itself the exclusive use of Australia's existing NFC terminal infrastructure for the making of integrated mobile payments using iOS devices. Yet, this infrastructure was built and paid for by Australian banks and merchants for the benefit of all Australians."

Let's just parse this a bit more closely, and see what it boils down to: "Apple is seeking ... exclusive use of ... integrated mobile payments using iOS devices."

Whoops. What was that? Apple wants to profit from the hardware and software that they themselves developed? Huh.

Now, the banks' real point: "... this infrastructure [that is, the existing NFC terminals] was built and paid for by Australian banks and merchants for the benefit of all Australians." Oh. So the truth of the matter is, you want to retain control over your ecosystem, and Apple wants to retain control over their ecosystem. Isn't that something?

Funny thing is, the banks (worldwide) do indeed have full control over their respective ecosystems; all they have to do is ignore Apple, and implement something on Android. Unless, of course, that's too much work for them, or possibly not as profitable as Apple's iOS ecosystem, for some reason...

Bottom line: the banks are just trying to find a way to maximize their share of the profits, pure and simple. Nothing much to see, here... just your standard money grab.

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[DaHat]

Apple tore down the walls of its own garden a few YEARS ago, when they started allowing full-blown Sideloading of any ol' iOS App the User wanted.

So we should just ignore the rules of the store (though shall not compete with any of our apps/services)? Or the fact that to develop for their platform, you need to already buy into their platform? Ex: You can use a Linux box to build a Windows, MacOS or Linux app pretty easily, and per all of the rules, however if you attempt to do something like... build a Xamarin app in... Visual Studio on Windows, suddenly you require an MacOS device to do the building. Not for technical reasons, but for legal ones.

when a large percentage of audio equipment was still shipping (and some still does!) with 1/4" jacks?

Stationary maybe, not portable.

Thinking back on just my own purchases... I do not recall ever owning a portable cassette (boombox or Walkman), CD or MP3 player which had a 1/4" jack, only 3.5mm.

Hell, even the original Sony Walkman back in '79 only had a 3.5mm connection.

Because, JUST LIKE APPLE, the headphone manufacturers INCLUDED AN ADAPTER. So, pray tell, how is this ANY different?!?

And over the years I got many of those adapters... even later airplane ones, never used any because mini-stereo, a widely used standard had won out as anyone could implement it. PCs, portables, autos, airplanes, you name it. Can't say the same about Lightning, can we?

And don't bring up the ridiculously-overblown bug-boo about "Charging while listening".

So all of those people who actually have that as a problem are wrong... because *you* are ok with adapters and think the battery has enough capacity for your type of usage? Good for you! Not all of us are so easily sold.

Some of us may use our devices heavily when not in a location we are able to charge, but once we reach our car want to add some juice while listening to audio from the device.

Second, there are about a dozen adapters, some as inexpensive as $10, that allow doing just that.

Yup, none which have the ease of what existed before (ie not having to deal with a dock or some small brick hanging from your device if you happen to pick it up). I continue to be surprised no one has released anything as simple as this one, but for lightning as it gives you the benefits of a single cord, and puts any clutter of the mini-stereo cable away from the handset.

If you have spent $700 on a new phone, one would think that $10 wouldn't be that much of a financial hardship, eh?

Maybe... it's not about the money?

Heck, if you are so quick to dismiss the legit concerns about "charging while listening"... perhaps you should do a better job understanding the concerns?

Personally I usually have a pair of earbuds in my pocket... they work just fine with my cell phone, tablet, laptop, even my gaming controller. If I owned an iPhone 7, I could simply carry that adapter with me all of the time and use it where needed... however that gets into a lot of hassle. Or I could drop $10 per location I usually plug in some audio device (home, work, car, work area in garage, etc)... but then I am participating in a sort of balkanization I have zero willingness to join in on.

Oh, and the reason that Microsoft APPEARS to be moving in a more "Open" direction? THEY ARE SCARED TO DEATH. Period.

You really should look into the Satya kool-aid a bit more, it's not as simple as that.

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[DaHat]

Believe it or not... some people (most I imagine) can criticize something without resorting to 'hate'.

You unfortunately seem to have so much ingrained hate that you project your own animosity onto others.

Please get help.

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[macs4all]

Apple tore down the walls of its own garden a few YEARS ago, when they started allowing full-blown Sideloading of any ol' iOS App the User wanted.

They did? I can just go to an alternate app store and download an app to my phone and run it? I mean, I can do that on my Note 5, nothing else needed! So iOS now allows that, too?

More or less. The "official" way to do so is to use XCode 7 or later. Which means that you will be compiling from Source. Here's a list on github of Open Source iOS Apps. Some (indicated) are also in the App Store, by some are not. By the way, it is also a good way to learn how to code iOS Apps in Swift or ObjC. By the way, you will note that one of the Projects is for VLC, which famously withdrew itself from the iOS App Store.

However, there is also a tool called "Cydia Impactor" for Mac, Linux and Windows. While I don't know much about it, it purports to work to install non-blessed Apps without the need for jailbreaking, nor need for a Mac, nor XCode. It is supposed to be able to Install non-blessed IPA files. Here's an example of installing Moviebox using Impactor.

And now we're past the end of my knowledge on the subject. But it does appear to be as open as say, Linux, at this point, as far as App installation/development goes. No, you still don't have the source to the OS; but you don't have that with any DELIVERED Android version, either.

Re:shit post

[DogDude]

The terminals support several payment schemes.

So what? Terminals can be bulletproof, but you still need software to talk to those terminals, and that's where the problem usually lies. ApplePay wouldn't prevent any of those security problems at all.

Apple is beating banks.

[Grand Facade]

Apple is beating banks to the same fees they charge merchants down the food chain.

The banks like their position calling the shots taking little risk and collecting huge fees,
now they are a little whiney because Apple is horning in on their corn!

We need more legislation to protect the banks interests and keep the bad apple from raising the stakes and costing consumers more in fees.....

Coming in 3 - 2 - 1

Re:Apple is beating banks.

[Grand Facade]

Banks charge those fees because they control the industry, it would cost us a lot more if the fee schedule was not proscribed by law.

Now because Apple wants their cut of the action banks are scrambling to protect their gravy train.
The banks want to make sure anything Apple gets is on top of what they charge.
They do not want to pay apple out of their share.

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[dgood]

It is remarkable to think about how their relative positions have changed in just a decade or two.

Not really. Things are very much the same. In the 90's, Apple had maybe a maybe 10% share of the personal computing market but 100% of the Mac market. Today, they have a little over 10% share of the smartphone market but 100% of the iOS market. The only thing that has changed is the coolness factor. In the 90s nobody was talking about Macs but today they're all talking about iOS. Apple's attitude hasn't really changed. The Mac was locked down just like iOS -- they're the only manufacturer and they control what people can do with it to varying degrees.

Re:shit post

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

The only one i know of is Walgreen's drug store, which uses it for loyalty card.

What crap.

[aergern]

These banks whine about this but yet they are taking so much time with Android Pay that there was an article about folks jumping ship on the banks owned by Westpac Banking Corp. Maybe they should get over it because 50 different payment systems on Android would suck .. and since they can't have access to the NFC antenna in the iPhone they have little choice. And consumers don't give a crap they just want to use contactless and be on with their day.

Re:What crap.

[Grand Facade]

This consumer does not want my phone (oh wait! It's not even my friggin phone) handling any financial transactions.

So especially because it is not my phone I am not going to give it access to my financial anything.

That is what credit cards are for.......

It should be my phone I paid all the taxes on it, I pay for the service it runs on, but it's not my phone.
I cant even get rid of the stupid high volume nanny, I damn sure am not going to give it access to my financials.

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[macs4all]

And over the years I got many of those adapters... even later airplane ones, never used any because mini-stereo, a widely used standard had won out as anyone could implement it. PCs, portables, autos, airplanes, you name it. Can't say the same about Lightning, can we?

Sure you can! What do you think Apple's MFi Program is for? It is PRECISELY for OEMs that want to design Lightning-Compatible devices.

If I owned an iPhone 7, I could simply carry that adapter with me all of the time and use it where needed..

Some high-end headphones still come with 1/4" plugs. You would be in the same boat if you wanted to use them, wouldn't you?

perhaps you should do a better job understanding the concerns?

No. Maybe you should do a better job of putting those "concerns" in perspective. If you have a device that gets a WORKING WEEK's worth of run-time playing music, and you REALLY think you're going to get caught-out having to charge while continuing to listen to music, you need to spend a little more time in the real-world.

You really should look into the Satya kool-aid a bit more, it's not as simple as that.

You're right. It is also about Embrace, Enhance, Extinguish. Especially with the Linux stuff.

intransigent, closed and controlling

[ilsaloving]

Three of Australia's big four banks have described technology giant Apple as being "intransigent, closed and controlling"

Basically the banks don't like competition to their business model?

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[macs4all]

i agree apple was evil from about 1980 onwards.

Sorry, no.

Mod this guy up, please?

[mmell]

I didn't know that. So I didn't beat 'em, I joined 'em. Heh.

Re:Wait, wat?

[Anne Thwacks]

And these people are only just realising that Apple are closed and controlling?

They are banks. They probably are unaware of the kind of activities bears get up to in woods.

Oh Boo hoo

[Rob_Bryerton]

Yet, this infrastructure was built and paid for by Australian banks and merchants for the benefit of all Australians.

No, more like this infrastructure was built and paid for by Australians and merchants for the benefit of Australian banks. Fuck the banks.

And I know it's not cool to like Apple any more, but I don't really care which way the tide flows in this cesspool of ignorance. (I'm referring to the Slashdot hive-mind in case you're wondering).

I'd trust Apple w/my money more than any bank on this planet...

Re:Oh Boo hoo

[Grand Facade]

"I'd trust Apple w/my money more than any bank on this planet..."

Wow! The KoolAid must be kickin in!

Why is my Apple browser spending so much time on my network connection to the point of slowing down my machine?
I'm pretty sure Apple is trying to climb as far up my butt as I will tolerate.
Using Itunes as an additional example, my conclusion is Trust Apple? no fuckin way!
I'll bet that BS over refusing to back door the evil Terrorist's phone was all hype to cover up the co-operation because it would ruin their image.
I'm not buying it.
Google either, I think they forgot the "do no evil" pledge. Their evil eye is tainted....
I blame Google for taking us down this path, they went over and beyond Apple and Apple is rushing to catch up and cash in.

Re: Apple today, MS yesterday

[LynnwoodRooster]

Thank you. You wrote exactly what I was going to say. You have to install full dev tools, figure out how to run them, then recompile all the code and install. Radically different than for Android. Or Windows. Or Linux. Or any other OS. The shill continues to shill, blatantly!

Re: shit post

[Luthair]

Last time I checked there are only a handful of credit card companies in the USA and merchants are not allowed to refuse cards with high merchant fees.

Banks are hypocrites.

[evan.gibson23]

The problem is that Australian banks want their own branded version more than they want security. Any change in security increases the chance of failure, but the banks don't care about that. They are malicious and selfish. Apple has problems but they _do_ value security and compared to the banks they are positively transparent.

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[DaHat]

Again we see how you just don't understand the arguments being put towards you.

What do you think Apple's MFi Program is for?

Um... further balkinization in favor of the Apple ecosystem?

It is PRECISELY for OEMs that want to design Lightning-Compatible devices.

Half true... as it covers only half of the sort of devices which could exist... ie things which plug into an iPhone/iPad/iOS device.

If tomorrow Google or Samsung went to Apple and said "We want our next phone to be a Lightning-Compatible device"... Do you honestly think Apple would go for that? Their own wording suggests otherwise: https://mfi.apple.com/MFiWeb/g...

So much for it being an open standard which both device and accessory makers can build for.

Some high-end headphones still come with 1/4" plugs. You would be in the same boat if you wanted to use them, wouldn't you?

Key word: *some*, and in the grand scheme of the market... they are a rounding error... so no, you wouldn't be in the same boat they are targeted towards the more niche markets of stationary use, either in a studio or physically attached to a stereo/record player/etc.

Care to try to compare apples to apples maybe?

No. Maybe you should do a better job of putting those "concerns" in perspective.

I'm sorry that your perspective & imagination is so limited, it's a pretty common attitude I've been seeing from mac fans (as your name suggests) who cannot comprehend of things other than what they have experienced.

Lemme guess... do you think that touch enabled displays on a desktop/laptop is stupid due to 'gorilla arms'? I've heard that argument from Mac users since Steve Jobs said it... and have used touch enabled desktops & laptops and did find them useful from time to time.

If you have a device that gets a WORKING WEEK's worth of run-time playing music,

Just playing music... limited radio traffic, screen off, just music, not unlike the horsepower in an engine is tested (ie not in a car, driving down the road)... as artificially as can be so as to produce the maximum theoretical results.

Apple is a good bit more honest than you on this, they even say the following at the bottom of the iPhone 7 specs page:

All battery claims depend on network configuration and many other factors; actual results will vary.

Why would they say that? Throw in other device usages, you know, GPS, a radio or two, maybe even some gaming? You don't think you'll have a good bit less available time?

They even admit all of this (http://www.apple.com/iphone/battery.html) if you do a little more reading.

and you REALLY think you're going to get caught-out having to charge while continuing to listen to music, you need to spend a little more time in the real-world.

I see how quickly my wife can drain her iPhone 6s Plus if she's away from a charger for too long, thankfully she has the option to charge it while having a mini-stereo plug attached when she's in the car.

You're right. It is also about Embrace, Enhance, Extinguish. Especially with the Linux stuff.

Like I said, you know little of the Satya kool-aid, whose views on tech, leadership & open source are rather different than Steve's, try to keep up?

..and banks aren't?

[epyT-R]

Apple and the banks deserve each other.. Those three adjectives apply to both.

Re:if you own an iphone you're a cuck

[Grand Facade]

Don't sugar coat it!

Tell us how you really feel.

Re:shit post

[TechyImmigrant]

The terminals support several payment schemes.

So what? Terminals can be bulletproof, but you still need software to talk to those terminals, and that's where the problem usually lies. ApplePay wouldn't prevent any of those security problems at all.

That's where PCI-DSS steps in as an utterly stupid spec that doesn't enable secure communication with PoS systems while leaving the card data within the PCI security boundary. This is in part so they can charge a bucketload of money certifying every PoS terminal that doesn't need to be within the PCI security boundary.

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[macs4all]

wrong just wrong

Since there are several tutorials online on sideloading apps using Xcode, a library of FOSS Apps for same, as well as a tool for loading IPA files without XCode or a Mac, and a tutorial on doing exactly that, please tell me exactly what is "wrong".

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[nuckfuts]

Intransigent, closed and controlling

Sounds like every bank I've ever dealt with.

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[macs4all]

If tomorrow Google or Samsung went to Apple and said "We want our next phone to be a Lightning-Compatible device"... Do you honestly think Apple would go for that? Their own wording suggests otherwise: https://mfi.apple.com/MFiWeb/g... [apple.com]

So much for it being an open standard which both device and accessory makers can build for.

I never claimed it was an OPEN standard. But then, neither is Zigbee. Both are licensed. But honestly, I don't really see a proscription in the wording of the document you linked against creating another "host" device that supported Lightning. For example, I believe I saw an article for a Lightning memory stick, but I might be mistaken. But if approached by the right entity, Apple really might let a Lightning connector exist on a competitor's device. Yes, I believe that could happen.

slow off the mark

[bigtreeman]

They just work that out ?

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[macs4all]

apple is wrong, the whole damn company

Ah, I see. Nice logic there. Did you sit up all night thinking that one up?

It can be inferred from the context

[UberVegeta]

Don Bot: "As the duly-elected mobsters of this union, it's our duty to support the struggle of these proud, lazy slobs."

Clamps: "Yeah, but what if management remains intransigent?"

Don Bot: "From the context, it is clear what you mean."

Re: Apple today, MS yesterday

[Karlt1]

"So we should just ignore the rules of the store (though shall not compete with any of our apps/services)"

There is a simple existence proof that you are wrong. There are plenty of apps that compete with maps, Apple Music, iBooks, iTunes, iCloud, etc.

Re:Apple today, MS yesterday

[DaHat]

My oh my... the goal posts seem to have been moved again.

I never claimed it was an OPEN standard.

No, but earlier I referred to 3.55mm jacks being "a widely used standard had won out as anyone could implement it", which does sorta meet the definition of 'open standard'.

You then brought up MFi, claiming "Sure you can! What do you think Apple's MFi Program is for? It is PRECISELY for OEMs that want to design Lightning-Compatible devices."

Which as you acknowledge now... isn't actually 100% true.

But then, neither is Zigbee.

Who said anything about Zigbee?

Both are licensed.

Just because a standard is open, doesn't mean it's cost or license free for all to use.

Going to make some DRAM? Probably going to be some license fees to be paid (for royalties on the patents that cover the underlying technology).

Going to make a USB device? Probably going to be some license fees to be paid (ie getting your own VID).

Going to be making a network adapter? Probably going to be some license fees to be paid (for a MAC address range).

Going to be making a PC motherboard? Probably going to be some license fees to be paid (see above).

Let me say this again, and I'll try to use small words as you are clearly having comprehension issues.

An open standard allows anyone to build a product that meets the specification. Sometimes, there are licensing costs associated with it.

MFi, is not an open standard as Apple at it's sole discretion (too big of a word? option? choice?) can veto any product which it thinks would compete with it's own lines... which includes host devices.

But honestly, I don't really see a proscription in the wording of the document you linked against creating another "host" device that supported Lightning.

Read it again, it refers only to devices which plug into iPhones, iPods & iPads.

For example, I believe I saw an article for a Lightning memory stick, but I might be mistaken.

And unless they are like this one and also include a USB port, will only work with a Lightning compatible devices (ie iPhones, iPods & iPads).

In fact, there are quite a few such a devices... it's as if most of them know that because Lightning isn't a standard which will likely ever be available on non Apple hardware, that they have to add a standard plug on it as well so people can use it on devices adhering to a more common standard.

But if approached by the right entity,

If such an approach requires being the right entity, then no, it weakens any semblance of openness of MFi wrt host devices.

Apple really might let a Lightning connector exist on a competitor's device.

Might? And what possible evidence is there of such a thing?

Yes, I believe that could happen.

No doubt you also believe in unicorns and that 9/11 was an inside job.

No, really?

[smithmc]

A company founded by Steve Jobs would be intransigent and controlling? The hell you say.