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London's Mayor Wants Volkswagen To Pay $3 Million In Lost Tolls (citiesofthefuture.eu)
dkatana writes: Since the U.K. government has done nothing to make Volkswagen pay for Dieselgate, Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, is asking VW to come up with 2.5 million pounds ($3 million) to compensate the city and its residents for the 80,000 diesel cars fitted with cheat devices. "I want to see a proper commitment from them [VW] to fully compensate the thousands of Londoners who bought Volkswagen cars in good faith, but whose diesel engines are now contributing to London's killer air."
The money will be used to fund a new air-quality program for London's schoolchildren, and Mayor Khan is also asking the government to create "a national diesel scrappage" program to help replace vehicles.
The money will be used to fund a new air-quality program for London's schoolchildren, and Mayor Khan is also asking the government to create "a national diesel scrappage" program to help replace vehicles.
The tolls were for entering London in a vehicle that pollutes a lot. They weren't paid because VW diesels "don't pollute a lot". Now it turns out that they do, so they're asking VW to pay, since the customers who would normally owe the tolls bought the cars in good faith thinking that they would be able to enter London without paying the toll.
The mental anguish of seeing all those cheat devices...I want to see a proper commitment from them [VW] to fully compensate me for this hardship.
England doesn't have "programs". It's called a programme, darn it.
Government official wants money he didn't earn. Says he has good reason why he should be allowed to spend it on his priorities.
More like "government official wants money owed to government because of Volkswagen's deceitful practices." When you're a city with a polluter-toll, and you have a car company lying about their emissions causing consumers to unwittingly increase pollution while not paying said-tolls, I think it's safe to say there are damages. I think the government can spend the money however they see fit. What, would you prefer them to send a bill to the drivers of the vehicles? To me, this is the most legitimate and reasonable money-grab I've seen throughout the VW debacle.
I think in this case the government has a right to it. Volkswagen was very naughty and even worse, they got caught. A very stiff fine is perfectly reasonable here considering the blatant and stupid things that the company did.
I think that it would be perfectly reasonable and appropriate for Volkswagen to have to take each and every vehicle back and refund the full purchase price of the vehicle. They knowingly sold a defective product. Fuck them.
Government official wants money he didn't earn. Says he has good reason why he should be allowed to spend it on his priorities.
More like "government official wants money owed to government because of Volkswagen's deceitful practices." When you're a city with a polluter-toll, and you have a car company lying about their emissions causing consumers to unwittingly increase pollution while not paying said-tolls, I think it's safe to say there are damages. I think the government can spend the money however they see fit. What, would you prefer them to send a bill to the drivers of the vehicles? To me, this is the most legitimate and reasonable money-grab I've seen throughout the VW debacle.
They would if they could get away with it.
And you know it.
Teh EVUL car dirvers msut be PNUISHED!
In related news, a spokesman for Volkswagen was heard to say:
"Kaaaahhhnnnn!!!"
-- Alastair
No it's not. The mayor is trying to work in the best interests of his citizens and punish a criminal company that lied.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
VW could try to show whether or not, in London driving conditions, the diesels actually polluted "a lot". But it would probably cost more than $3 million.
it should be paid by the executives who ordered the deceit. If it is paid by the company then future generations of execs will play similar tricks, they will know that it will not hurt them although it might hurt their company — and they can always get another job if the company folds. If their own house is at risk they will be scrupulously honest.
This is the only route to corporate good behaviour, be that: car manufacturers; banks; energy companies; ... NB: I am not talking about mistakes but deceit.
The money is clearly owed by Volkswagen owners. Just like the owners of any other brand of car with high emissions paid. The Mayor is simply saying that since Volkswagen owners were deceived by Volkswagen, and government monitoring devices were cheated, all knowingly by Volkswagen, then Volkswagen should be responsible for paying the fees.
Your post doesn't have any actual argument in it excpt for the implicit one that this has come from the government therefore it must be bad. Government == bad is not actually a fact, though if you treat it as an axiom you can come to all sorts of odd conclusions.
London has a pollution/air quality problem. The local government tries to improv things by providing incentives and levying taxes. That is a pretty reasonable way of carrying on with things. Except that volkswagen gave themsalves a comptitive advantage by a massive amount of lying, and caused a lot of extra pollution.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
id argue a polluter toll is nothing more than a tax to keep out the poor myself ~GD
The poor don't really have to worry about the polluter toll in London. The city has a very efficient public transport system which stands a good chance of getting them where they are going every bit as quickly than the drivers who are rich enough to pay the pollution toll.
That's because you're a bit dim, isn't it? If you had half a brain, you'd know that the vast majority of poor people who live in London don't have access to a car. They travel by public transport.
They should do a trade in scheme for electric vehicles. London has terrible EV infrastructure and it needs ask the investment it can get. The more cars and the more demand the better.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
because adults don't breathe.
Yes it is. 2.5 million euros is a drop in the bucket of London's budget and pollution levels STILL DROPPED while VW "cheated" http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/28205/20160906/success-londons-air-pollution-levels-drop-thanks-to-smart-policies.htm
It's a "look how cool I am looking out for you citizen" feel good ploy for re-election and political capital.
This is what is called a strawman argument. Yes, I agree it would be terrible if this official got to keep that $3 million dollars personally.
But the actual situation is pretty straightforward. You're allowed to drive your old, dirty car into the city as long as you pay a little bit extra per trip to offset the costs you're imposing on everyone else. In this case that means the people driving VWs into the city should have paid, but they only were in that situation because VW cheated them. Under the circumstances, asking VW to pony up $3 million to pay their customers fees isn't exactly draconian; after all VW had no difficulty in paying the outgoing CEO who oversaw this mess a $6.26 million dollar performance bonus after all the came out.
Now if it were up to me, dirty cars would be completely banned, and the officials and engineers of a company that cheats would go to jail.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Wanting to tax people to support the infrastructure that allows them to earn money is, however, not bad.
Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
What about the Tube? That's had EV infrastructure for over 100 years!
Government official wants the money that said government was cheated out of by a scheming corporation that sought to break the law to achieve greater profits.
This is no different than demanding a tax evader pay back the taxes that weren't paid. In fact, that's exactly what it is.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Then you're free to vote for a government that won't institute such a toll, which will of course mainly benefit people with more money, as the poor in most major urban centers don't drive at all. The poor, of course, must gain some benefit from breathing in more NOX, right?
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Better engines, more reliability, much lower mpg, more power....I'm pretty sure the consumer received all kinds of benefits for VW's "sabotage" of emissions.
Yes it is. You can make the case that it isn't (very) bad if it nets out positive for almost everyone. But you haven't made that case.
There's always a huge infrastucture wish list. Someone will always point to a supposed benefit for someone. All the projects seem great if you forget that you took the money from the people who earned it so you could spend it on yourself/your priorities.
Civilization wouldn't exist without taxation. You're libertarianism is a fantasy and it is best if you finally grow up.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
dont see vw's liability here
or how London expects to get it from them.
In other news, the recent stupid tax impossed on all the politicians involved in passing the snoopers charter should be paid up soon.
shouldnt it?
Something in the AC water this morning? Murder rates have also been in decline for decades - that mean you should be able to go out, shoot someone and get away with it?
Making a case for public infrastructure to a Randian is like making a case for evolution to a young-earth creationist. Can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
Randians: always wanting to live in civilization, never wanting to pay for it.
That's reasonable enough, what I don't get is this:
"air-quality program for London's schoolchildren"
Are the children going to be kept in airtight enclosures? Can everybody else just suck on a tail pipe? What exactly is going to happen here?
Air quality: it's not for the children, it's JUST for the children.
Yes, Kohath is a known liar, who starts from a position based on his presumptions, and can't appreciate reality.
Really, going by his words, he seems to be implying that Sadiq Khan wants to keep the money for his own enrichment, or somehow is supposed to earn that value?
Huh? He's Mayor of London. Now I don't know the duties of that office in a legal sense, but I will accept in principle, that arguing for the cleaner air for the residents of London is within the spectrum of potential responsibilities. This includes those who are the victim of the deceitful misrepresentations conducted by Volkswagen in regards the emissions of their own vehicles. Doing so means that he's earning his salary as mayor of London.
That the money will be spent in advancing the interests of London, seems to be reasonable as well.
What else does Kohath expect form the Mayor of London?
Yeah, poor people can't afford VWs. It's a long time since they were the people's cars.
100 years is also approximately the age the tube feels like.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It would take you not very long at all to discover that this means a targeted program aimed at reducing pollution specifically near schools.
Do you have citable proof of who this would be or are you trying to make some kind of feel good gesture that has no practical way of being proven and thus no way to be enforced?
The VW product was not defective. It worked exactly as expected. The VW product was illegal but that's a different issue than the one you mentioned. As an aside, I would want one of these "defective" VW if I was a VW fan looking for a car. All the VWs that I have owned were good cars plus it's cheaper to run than the "restricted" model.
Well, I can see each individual's liability - they drove a car that pollutes into the centre of London and are therefore liable for a fee. VW's liability is there to each individual since their false advertising made them liable for the fee. London are just trying to cut out the middle man.
I don't even know why I'm bothering responding, but at any rate, London has, historically, and even today, the same problem many large urban centers have, and that is significant air quality problems. The solutions are pretty obvious:
1. Do nothing, and allow air quality to get worse and worse, costing taxpayers ever more money to treat the growing number of health problems that come from breathing in pollution from internal combustion engines, not to mention reducing quality of life of people whose only sin, apparently, is that they have to breath the same fucking air that's being polluted.
2. Outlaw polluting vehicles - This, of course, will have a whole bunch of people up in arms because they can't drive their aging diesel burning car that vomits NOX, carbon monoxide and probably dozens of other equally nasty chemicals in lower ratios.
3. Take a middle ground approach, understanding that many people can't afford to get rid of polluting vehicles all at once, but giving some sort of monetary advantage to those who do use cleaner less polluting vehicles in the urban area you wish to maintain some level of decent air quality, while monetarily disadvantaging those who are driving more polluting vehicles.
You will furthr notice that option 3 tacitly invokes a free market principle, that something that costs less will inevitably overtake a similar product or activity that costs more. Isn't the free market the best way to solve problems? If it's not, then perhaps option 2 is better, and vehicles that don't meet minimum pollution standards are outright banned from driving in the areas in question. Option 2 and option 3 further recognize a rather old adage by now, that your right to swing your fist ends at my face. In much the same way, your right to vomit damaging levels of dangerous compounds out your tailpipe ends at my fucking lungs.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
In most jurisdictions, the executives in question are already open to potential legal proceedings. Corporations do not confer absolute immunity upon executives or officers of a company. While civil findings would almost certainly paid by the company (and ultimately the shareholders), seeing as the company and its shareholders received a real benefit from the emissions cheating, if it is determined there was criminal wrongdoing, it's very possible that executives could end up in the dock.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Well, if they cannot find who is responsible then by default the CEO is responsible. It was his job to keep the company running well.
Then it would be up to the car owners to sue VW, after they (the car owners) pay the tax. Technically, VW doesn't owe the city of London anything. It does though owe the car owners for the tolls they have to pay.
It's to fund Perri-Air for kids.
They don't work as expected (well, they work the way that a few people in VW expected - privately - but that's not the same thing). The expectation is what was advertised - low emissions. If they are sold as low emission cars and they are not low emission cars then they are clearly defective. You might not particularly care about the defect but that doesn't eliminate the defect.
It would take you not very long at all to discover that this means a targeted program aimed at reducing pollution specifically near schools.
Good thing air doesn't move around much, then.
Oh, wait...
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
All the projects seem great if you forget that you took the money from the people who earned it so you could spend it on yourself/your priorities.
If you are alleging that the mayor of London is seeking to divert these funds to his own personal enrichment, you'll want to go to the London Assembly.
Please do let us know when you're ready to be sworn in.
Free people voluntarily choose to establish a government because it serves their interests. They want a street, or a fire department or a police force, but it actually makes the most sense to pool resources and create these things in common rather than for individuals or small groups to try to go it alone. So governments that are voluntarily established by free people actually serve those people.
The governments we have now serve special interests. Infrastructure projects aren't chosen based on the maximum public good for the minimum cost. Propose an infrastructure project that serves the people paying for it and is constructed to minimize costs rather than to pay off contractors and union workers and I'll support it. But that's illegal in the US when the Feds provide any of the money.
Civilization wouldn't exist ...
Stop stealing from people in the name of "civilization". We can have civilization without paying extra extortion money to special interests.
Trump supports make it so easy to identify themselves.
The civilization is here. The people who built it are long dead. Why should you get paid over and over and over for their work?
Just because you think some tax is "extortionistic" doesn't mean it is, and if you don't like the taxes you pay, then convince enough of your fellow citizens to elect a different government. But quit pretending that your personal objections are universal or that you have some special right not to.pay taxes beyond your fellow citizens. It's "no taxation without representation", not simply "no taxation".
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I bet you're fun at parties. Just call a tomato a vegetable and watch you go until you start foaming at the mouth. Seriously, the semantics could be argued either way, but that argument is both pointless and beside the point.
Not true, but still don't see the problem with that.
Studies from several different independent organisations have shown that the Volkswagen Group cars with defeat devices do not pollute more than comparable Euro 5 cars. That the engine code behaves differently if it has detected a test setting may be illegal, but it produces no more additional emissions than designing for the test and/or switching NOx reduction strategies based on environmental factors associated with the official emissions test (e.g. temperature).
Volkswagen never lied about the emissions of the affected cars. They did not know about the defeat device until after the affected engine went out of production and when they found out, they acknowledged it and issued recalls together with the type approval agency.
And you're an Illiterate idiot.
Just because you think some tax is "extortionistic" doesn't mean it is, and if you don't like the taxes you pay, then convince enough of your fellow citizens to elect a different government.
Done.
But quit pretending that your personal objections are universal or that you have some special right not to.pay taxes beyond your fellow citizens. It's "no taxation without representation", not simply "no taxation".
I'm going to keep telling people that it's wrong to want to spend money on yourself that other people earned. Thanks for the advice though.
I think that it would be perfectly reasonable and appropriate for Volkswagen to have to take each and every vehicle back and refund the full purchase price of the vehicle. They knowingly sold a defective product. Fuck them.
And fuck all the customers who don't get in before they go bankrupt?
Why not the car manufacturers that currently still sell cars that produce much more NOx on the road than in the official test? Volkswagen have done everything they could when they learned about the defeat device in some of the Euro 5 engines and their Euro 6 engines were already the cleanest on the market before all that. It is more than a bit unfair to go after the one company that has already taken most of the flak for an industry-wide problem and leave all the worse offenders alone.
The poor already couldn't afford the parking to be bringing their cars into the central city area.
Sure, "perfectly reasonable". There is nothing defective about the product and the one shortcoming, which does not in any way affect the usability of the vehicle, is addressed by a simple software update that is performed free of charge. Moreover, Volkswagen did not know about the defeat device until after the affected engine went out of production. They did not knowingly sell any cars that were equipped with it.
Except for the inconvenient fact that the VW group cars with the EA189 engine do not actually emit more NOx than comparable Euro 5 cars. In fact, many Euro 6 cars emit more in practice. The environment does not care whether emissions are due to cycle bearing or a slightly more indirect way of meeting the test. All that matters is what comes out of the tail pipe.
The claim is baseless. Even if it can be established that the software is illegal, despite the massive loopholes the law allows, there is know way to prove that it actually led to any additional emissions. VW engineers could have employed the tricks other manufacturers use and the cars would have produced just as much (or more) NOx.
Uhm, no. Read the article. He wants to punish Volkswagen, not some criminal company that lied.
Except that volkswagen gave themsalves a comptitive advantage by a massive amount of lying, and caused a lot of extra pollution.
There was neither extra pollution nor a competetive advantage. The VW Group cars that turned out to be equipped with defeat devices produce an amount of NOx comparable to what comes out of contemporary cars from competing manufacturers and the defeat device did not provide any benefits compared to the tricks employed by other manufacturers. See e.g. this page, written by the person who first identified the defeat device in the VW EA189, or this overview by Transport & Environment.
Volkswagen installed the cheat device. Volkswagen knew about the cheat device.
I am sure you are going to claim that not everyone at Volkswagen knew about it therefore Volkswagen did now know about. But that is not how it works.
Yep in theory that is correct. In practice, not so much. Thanks you for your useless contribution of a fact.
If I am deceived into being liable for a bill, then I have the right to get the person who deceived me into being liable to pay the bill. This is what Khan is proposing. Personally I think VW should be required to pay 3 times what was stolen from the taxpayers of London - the three times multiple being the standard figure in the Hebrew Bible for a thief to repay.
If I can make $1m by legally killing a thousand people, should I be allowed to do it?
If you had any clue at all, you would know that measured air pollution in London, both particulate and gas, varies over a surprisingly small area. Schemes that either offset by green space or reduce traffic can indeed lower air pollution in an area surrounding a school. Again, don't let pesky facts get in the way of your loudmouth ill informed opinion, though.
So far as I can tell Trump's proposals will end up costing taxpayers.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
For example this piece of evidence
http://creation.com/triceratop...
The existence of such material challenges strongly the old earth hypothesis.
Why are these idiots still calling them "devices"?
This is a necessary measure, otherwise the message is that the winner is the one that cheats laws and regulation.
Khaaaaaaaaann!
And lunar conspiracy theorists make equally facile claims that the landings were fake, because you can't see any stars in the photos taken by astronauts and lunar dust wasn't blown away from the landing site. Facile claims that are easily dismissed by the fact that fast exposure film was necessary (so no stars captured) and there is no atmosphere for the dust to float away on.
How is giving the money to school kiddies going to fix London's "killer air"?
I find I don't give a shit either about London, Sadiq Khan, VW, supposed pollution nor the money.
What does piss me off is that Khan is a dirty muslim swine and the fact they are charging tolls.
If you had any clue at all, you would know that measured air pollution in London, both particulate and gas, varies over a surprisingly small area.
Like, depending on how hard/which direction the wind is blowing? /facepalm
Don't let common sense get in the way of your eco-fanaticism.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Really.
I wonder if any other car manufacturers build engines that appear by magic, and have ECUs running firmware handed down by God, and absolutely not coded in-house to specs.
How could you possibly believe that VW didn't know, when they are developing a diesel that needs to pass emissions tests, which it doesn't, right up until it magically does without mechanically changing anything on the engine, or adding an exhaust treatment system like every other manufacturer?
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
It produces too much pollution. That's defective. They managed to hide it for a while but the jig is up and they're busted. They knowingly sold a defective product.
And instead of fines, some of their key patents should be invalidated and put to public domain. Money fines alone are not effective against companies. Losing their most important patents is.
Nonsense propaganda, ancaps and libertarians most certainly have reasoned positioned, the collectivists of all colours have emotion based positions. Young earth creationists and e collectivists today.
MY OTHER COMMENTS
The article states thousands of Londoners, which implies thousands of vehicles.
I would hardly define that as 'a lot of extra pollution' it's simply a small percentage more. There are 2.56m cars licensed in London.
he did NOT get a performance bonus at all, he got paid his entitlements for pension etc, It isn't like VW could suddenly take away someones legal entitlements because someone else screwed the pooch, ultimately he is responsible (the person at the top always is) but this wasn't something that he was complicit in and without him breaking some laws etc I am not sure how you could legally take that away from him,..
By making older/more polluting cars more expensive to drive it does tend to have a negative impact on those types of cars sales and encourages new cars to come in under those pollution limits in order to achieve more competitive pricing. basically it uses free market to make polluting less attractive without causing mass riots by outright banning them. In the meantime you have a small income to use as desired.
you aint poor if you can afford to drive and park in London!
The interesting thing with the VW case is it doesn't appear to have happened with any exec level involvement, appears to have been a decision made within an engineering team (at least according to everything I have read on, and I read a lot given I owned a VW at the time)
not sure why I am bothering responding as you seem bereft of logic and incapable of reason. BUT, Civilization is not something you create and then it just continues to exist, you need to maintain it and care for it or you will fall back to chaos. Your blatant greed is astounding, you really should try going and creating your own countries with like minded individuals, it would be funny for the rest of us to watch you blame each other for the mess while adamantly refusing to help.
lol sure it does, that is like watching a magician pull a rabbit out of a hat and claiming that that somehow challenges the conclusion that magic is not real. bad science is bad science regardless of who created it and even if what they found was evidence that a triceratops existed 40,000 years ago that in no way challenges the old earth hypothesis any more than finding a living one today would challenge it, it would merely challenge the hypothesis of when a triceratops became extinct.
Your post doesn't have the hallmarks of a regular troll, your reasoning is both well-worded and a lie. VW doesn't have the cult following of fanboys that certain elecronic products enjoy...
I'm beginning to suspect that VW is actually hiring these shills to clean up their reputation.
Tell us AC, how much do you get paid per post?
Civilization isn't a thing, it's an ongoing process. The people who build civilization are all around you. Just because you don't contribute doesn't mean that the rest of us are slacking off. It means that you're a selfish prick.
I'll fuck them if they'e female and pretty.
You're a pretty stupid person. Perhaps you should stand in traffic and let a defective VW hit you on its way back to the dealer.
Facts based on actual measurement have a nasty habit of overriding 'common sense'.
There have been various reality TV shows with people from all walks of life trying to survive in primitive conditions. One with a group entirely if libertarians, one of liberals, one of anarchists, one of Marxists might be both interesting and amusing.
If London imposed the tax on the VW owners, and then they each, individually, where they could afford to do so after paying the bill, sought to sue VW the main winners would lawyers (the UK doesn't really have class actions in the way the USA does).
Facts based on actual measurement have a nasty habit of overriding 'common sense'.
Yeah, like that pesky satellite data showing no warming. Gotta 'massage' those pesky facts into the proper agenda-backing curve, don't ya know!
Gawd, you people are hilarious! You know you've jumped the shark with most people in the US, right?
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Shhhh, don't interrupt now, it's fascinating. An opinion is formed based on everyday experience that on the face of it sounds quite reasonable. When confronted with reality, however, rather than say "oh that's interesting" and explore the topic, the belief holder pulls out more opinions to support their initial
position. We're seeing belief perserverance in action, which is interesting from a psychological viewpoint. Remember, we all have a tendency to do this as humans.
Foaming at the mouth detected by satellite! Seriously, there is no shame in admitting your mistake, your assumptions were reasonable.
Citation needed.
A nice summary and what I'd like to add to it is that it is exactly this kind of policy that is working. London pollution levels are falling and they're doing so without massively penalising the poor who are often most affected by restrictions on emissions because they are stuck with older less efficient cars. We as a nation really bought into Diesel vehicles, and for long distance driving in flowing conditions that's fine but for city around in slow moving traffic in dense urban areas it's a massive issue, and gradually using financial disincentives to dissuade people from driving those cars in the city is the least bad option.
What is too much? There is no legal maximum for emissions on the road, only for emissions during the type approval test. Other contemporary car models produce similar NOx levels when actually being used as intended, some even more.
They managed to hide it for a while but the jig is up and they're busted. They knowingly sold a defective product.
Why do you keep lying about this? The engine was already replaced by a new model when Volkswagen found out about the defeat device. They never knowingly sold cars that contained it.
Why are you defending VW so vehemently? They deliberately designed an engine that was programmed to pretend to be cleaner than it was. They broke the law and and added to the problems of a city that is struggling to meet its legal air quality obligations, which includes traffic related pollution levels in schools near roads that are far higher than health guidelines allow. This was a deliberate devious by VW, and they should pay for it.
The existence of such material challenges strongly the old earth hypothesis.
No, it really isn't. There's not a singl piece of actual vidence in there. All there are are references to various "creation" journals and other related things.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
... government official wants money owed to government...
I think it is worth pointing out that this is not "some government official" who wants something for himself; this is money owed to society - the government is doing what it should do, namely acting as the representative of society. There is this modern myth, that "government" is your enemy, some entity that is somehow separate from the rest of us, but it simply isn't true. If you have a government that doesn't serve the interests of the WHOLE of the people, then you, the voter, bear a large part of the blame for that. Yeah, the establishment has let you down - but you have the your government down too, by being wilfully uninformed and refusing to engage with real facts; it is as if a large proportion of you guys prefer to be spiteful rather than accepting that some politician, you happen to disagree with, might occasionally do the right thing. If our societies crumble from within and succumb to what are really minor threats, like Daesh, this sort of attitude is the reason.
I can get paid to set things straight on the internet?
The reason I write these posts is that the witch hunt against VW rubs strongly against my sense of justice and that I do not want the economic warfare behind it to succeed. The only thing that separates VW from the other manufacturers in this regard is that they were stupid enough to acknowledge it, because management was surprised by it. Is it really fair to put all the blame of an industry-wide problem on the one company that actually did something about it? VW's Euro 6 engines were already the cleanest of the market before dieselgate broke and even the affected Euro 5 engines do not produce more NOx than the average Euro 5 engine from other manufacturers.
I could get behind criticism against those manufacturers that knowingly sell cars with defeat devices, some clearly designed with legal counsel at hand, and do nothing to address the issue (e.g. Renault-Nissan, Fiat Chrysler, General Motors), but going after VW makes no sense. They sacked those responsible, they issued recalls and they put measures in place to repeat anything like this in the future. Their current crop of diesel engines has the lowest NOx emissions of available today, as reported by several independent agencies. What more can they do?
The other manufacturers who were caught did nothing until the KBA forced a few of them to issue 'voluntary' recalls on a subset of affected cars that happened to be approved in Germany. Meanwhile, France and Italy actively obstruct prosecution of Renault-Nissan and Fiat Chrysler and the UK does nothing about the cheating in a number of carsof different brands that received their type approval in the UK.
Hehe, it's not like the wind can move airmasses from one place to another.. Local policies like this are pretty meaningless. Yes, it can be useful to change e.g. a very polluting power station within a mile upwind (in the usual wind direction that is) of a school. But, because cars and their output is pretty spread out, targeting car pollution specifically near schools is nothing more than lip service.
- This sig deliberately left blank. Nothing to see, move along.
Yay... now look up the definition of 'fraud'.
If you sell something promising certain attributes of the product which the product does not comply with - then that product is defective under the standard legal definition (throughout most of the world actually off) 'fitness for purpose'.
That there are actually laws that the car failed to comply with AGGRAVATES the defect - it does not limit it as you suggest. It makes the fraud on customers more severe since they were buying, in good faith, a car that they were told complied with the law when it didn't.
The fact that the car violated laws actually makes it even LESS fit for purpose.
And damn straight clients should not be held accountable for this. They had no reasonable way of learning about the deception until governments discovered it. The company that committed the fraud should be held accountable - and the CEO belongs in jail... if we start actually jailing the CEOs and executives of every company that commits large-scale fraud then large scale fraud would become a great deal less common - and things like the 2008 crash won't happen. Nobody would defraud millions of investors and even entire governments if they think they'll actually go to jail for it.
That's the one change in regulations the world really needs to keep capitalism mostly working. If a business commits a crime, the board and executive officers should face the same punishments that you or I would face if we did the same thing. They dump toxic waste in a river -they get the same punishment you would get for poisoning a town's well: death penalties for mass murder. They lie to customers or investors about what they are selling - they get the same punishment that con-artists get: ten to twenty in prison for fraud.
The problem is we only punish individuals when they don't have strong corporate shields. We put Madoff in jail - but the CEO of Goldman-Sachs walks free. So far no country has proposed criminal charges against the executives at VW for this massive fraud. Lots of fines - a few got fired, but no jail-time.
Considering the size of the fraud here, they should get consecutive ten year sentences for each offense... basically they should die of old age in prison.
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Woah, almost a cut and paste of the same claim made above. Citation needed, shill.
It's because there's nowhere to park. Also, if you had a garage it would have been converted into a "luxury apartment" by now.
I wonder if any other car manufacturers build engines that appear by magic, and have ECUs running firmware handed down by God, and absolutely not coded in-house to specs.
There is no magic involved. The people who commissioned and wrote the cheat are known. They have been suspended by VW and the public prosecution office is building a case against them.
or adding an exhaust treatment system like every other manufacturer?
The affected cars have a DPF, an LNT and an EGR valve. Except for SCR, which was quite rare in Euro 5 cars and is not even used by some of the lowest-emissions Euro 6 cars made today, they employed every technology available.
>Yeah, like that pesky satellite data showing no warming. Gotta 'massage' those pesky facts into the proper agenda-backing curve, don't ya know!
No such satellite data exists, you've been lied to.
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Well, if he's true to form America is royally screwed. What happens when a country is declared bankrupt? Do they call in Chinese debt collectors to repossess all the furniture?
Hell even most of the middle class in London do. Americans tend to assume everybody else has their terrible public transport and odd fetish for smog machines.
The rest of us sees a car not as a status symbol, not as a toy, not even as a luxury - it's a device of purely practical worth used to get from A to B and suitable to buy ONLY if it's pragmatically the BEST way of getting from A to B on a regular basis.
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Exactly. The alternative is that London sends a bill for unpaid congestion charge fees to every single VW customer that has driven their car in London under the belief that it was exempt as a low-emissions vehicle. These people then pay the fine and then takes their local VW dealer to the small claims court to get the money back under the Consumer Rights Act. The dealers then take VW to court to get their money back. This will tie up a lot of court time and cost VW a lot more than $3m.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Money made from defrauding people does not count as money 'earned'.
So spending VW's money in this case - does not even meet your (typical crazy 'all tax is theft' batshit-insane) criteria for 'bad'.
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>>Just because you think some tax is "extortionistic" doesn't mean it is, and if you don't like the taxes you pay, then convince enough of your fellow citizens to elect a different government.
>Done.
You think THAT's what you did? You elected a guy who will have to increase your taxes hugely - unless you're already one of the richest 1% - they get massive discounts. Guess who gets to foot the bill ?
Trump will almost certainly keep his promisses to fuck up the lives of every group whose lives he promised to fuck up... EXCEPT the elites. Because he is one of them.
But what you're about to find out is - he's not going to stop with the people whose lives he promised to fuck up - he's going to fuck up YOUR life too, and all your neighbours and friends.
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Because anything that you do NOT constantly reinvest in shrivels and dies. This is /. - so let's use a car analogy.
"The car is bought and paid for. Why should I keep paying for regular services ? Why do I have to keep spending money to put gas in the tank ?"
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I can tell you exactly how it would end.
Very soon afterwards the libertarians discover they have absolutely nobody who can actually produce anything. They discover that the super-rich are not, in fact, capable of producing anything at all without lots of cheap labour, that food doesn't grow on servants (and they don't have any servants anyway)... and they have no idea how to eat, get shelter or take care of themselves.
Very soon, they end up like every real libertarian society has ended up: parasitically surviving by stealing from the other, productive, societies around them - and only just barely managing to keep starvation at bay this way while plague after plague ravages them. It happened in Tortuga, it's happening right now in Somalia.
Every libertarian society in the real world ends up with piracy as it's only industry - with no REAL productive capacity, the only way they can survive is by stealing from the societies that DO produce things.
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Since he has no interest in contributing to the upkeep of society... it really ought to be legal for society to kick him out. Oh wait, it is. If he refuses to pay toward the upkeep of society, some friendly men in uniforms will come collect him and take him away where he can no longer fuck everyone else's civilization for them. A judge and jury will determine if he really did fail to contribute, and if they find he did, he will be removed from civilization and sent to a special libertarian enclave we built where he can live with other people who don't like law and order and taxes.
There he can live for a some time - to see firsthand what a world like that is life, and eventually we'll offer him the chance to come back.
You know it's weird... they ALWAYS choose to come back. Even Wesley Snipes chose to come back and stay. Martha Stewardt came back. Paris Hilton came back...
it's almost as if they don't LIKE living outside of civilization with other barbarians like themselves.
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Such as producing thecleanest cars?
It's not somebody else's money. It's money that was due, but wasn't paid because of fraud, being recovered from the fraudster.
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Nothing in a corporation EVER happens without executive involvement.
What you've been reading is proof that VW's execs are really, really good at the only thing execs have ever been good at or for: covering their asses.
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If Trump REALLY wants to make America great again - he'd pass a law making it legal to shoot the people who voted for him.
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False. For a situation like this to emerge it is not solely the executive at fault. This is the result of a deep and systemic culture problems in an organisation which shape the executive. Dishing out a fine at a specific person and calling the problem solved is laughable
The problem is who is responsible? The CEO as the leader of the organization? Or the head of the engineering team who was responsible for the software? Or the individuals who knew about the software but didn't speak out loud? Or as is the case now the owners aka share holders and all the members aka workers of the organization?
Here is one about a meta-analysis from several different studies by government agencies and independent environment groups across Europe.
London has a congestion charge, which is a con, nothing to do with congestion, it's a straightforward tax, which is why most embassies in London do not pay it. London now has spy cameras looking at number plates to see if you're a "polluter", real reason is just to collect lovely data on drivers for the police and spies etc.
The new London mayor Sadiq Khan is short of money because he made an election promise to freeze public transport fares, that's impossible to keep without slashing services. Then there's the UKP38m (so far) stolen from taxpayer's for a pedestrian bridge nobody wants, and has no use whatsoever apart from to the corporations that want it as their taxpayer funded plaything.
So, instead of thinking about this as getting back at VW for their emissions cheating, it's just a tax rise to plug black holes in the mayors fraudulent spending.
Take Nobody's Word For It.
I think in this case the government has a right to it. Volkswagen was very naughty and even worse, they got caught.
Well, I guess we know which of Santa's lists they're on. Unfortunately I think they know what to do with that lump of coal...
Not going to happen - wrong jurisdiction.
London is in the UK. Volkswagen is a German company with a UK presence. The managers almost certainly live in Germany, or at least not in the UK. Hence, London can sue Volkswagen, and if they win they can actually demand money from Volkswagen. If London decides to sue some managers, assuming they even know who to sue, the question is in which court they'd do this. A UK court will be ignored by the defendants (and the court might not even cooperate for that reason). A German court might be a more appropriate venue, but it's quite unclear whether a UK government can sue in German court on behalf of its citizens. There have been a few such legal skirmishes, e.g. when German and Dutch border towns wre complaining about Belgian nuclear reactor safety, and it's not yet settled whether these towns have legal standing.
Even more complicated than that. They were exempt because the vehicles were *registered as* low-emissions vehicles.If I build an actual LEV in my shed, it's not registered and not exempt. The Volkswagens were registered and exempt, but the registration was fraudulent. The legal problem now becomes that the vehicle owner is not at fault and not liable, simply because the rules were based on the theoretical emissions and not the real emissions.
Still, the city of London suffered a loss of income as a direct result of the fraudulent actions of Volkswagen, so there's no actual shortcut needed. London can directly claim damages.
That would be a problem. Punishment is a tasks of the judicial system (courts), not the executive.
However, the claim seems to be merely for damages, and that claim seems to be a technically valid claim. If Volkswagen hadn't cheated, and IF the Londoners had still bought VW's, and IF they'd still driven them inside Londen as often, then they would have had to pay these higher tolls. But London needs to prove all this. Who knows how many London VW owners would have bought a Toyota Prius instead, had VW not lied? I don't expect London to get the full amount claimed, because of this potential substitution effect.
Facts based on actual measurement have a nasty habit of overriding 'common sense'.
No such satellite data exists, you've been lied to.
Your tears of impotent frustration and rage are sweet.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
It was illegal in what jurisdiction? You can equally claim that the authorities giving the certificates should do a better job at testing. Better yet - VW did not cause the city to lose anything as if the owners knew possibly they would have chosen cars that have different exhaust characteristic. But this is too difficult for most to understand. You cannot blame Khan of course - asking for a dole is a nice thing to do esp. if the subject cannot escape but it can pay. So bottom line is this: Khan is either an idiot if he believes what he says or he is a smart guy trying to bully a weakened company to pay for imagined loss. Not sure what is worse.
You're right. Other manufacturers are equally guilty.
Where you're wrong is in stating that Volkswagen knew nothing about the defeat device. Clearly parts of VW knew, and if management didn't it was willful ignorance. That's the kind of sophistry that makes me suspicious of your motives.
I'm glad at least one manufacturer is being punished for their transgressions. It's a start.
Smart nations keep their own currency. The worst that happens is you devalue the shit out of it.
Sovereign nations have nukes, the rest, sort of sovereign.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
What color is the sky in 'your world'?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I agree, we should kick out the parasites.
But people wanting lower taxes are not the parasites. Parasites are easy to recognize. First sign: They don't have any earned or investment income.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Wow, shills are sounding shrill now. Your argument is so far off the range, it's well... you know.
Well from the very analysis you link to your claim is completely false, the EA189 model at the center of the scandal was "the most grossly polluting Euro 5 vehicles on the road, which were sold between 2011 and 2015". That the study shows that *other* VW models are underpolluting compared to its competitors (and in no way should their competitors be excused either) does not alter the fact that VW cheated and lied here. Nice try shill, in other news VW was also caught funding "independent" research to challenge diesel fumes health effects. Want me to pull any more dirty laundry out of their filthy bag?
That's what they're doing here in the US; offering to buy back all the cars. 500,000 of them, and it's expected to cost VW $15 billion.
Worldwide, VW has sold over 10 MILLION cars that are affected by the emissions problems. (That's not counting the Audis that are the subject of the latest emissions scandal.) If the cost of buying them back is comparable to the cars in the US, it would cost the company 300 BILLION dollars to buy them all. I doubt the company can afford to do that; they would probably have to close their doors, and the buyers would only get a partial refund. Might be the right thing to do, but I can't imagine the German government going along.
It's worded badly, but what is meant is that VW has the largest number of Euro 5 vehicles with excess emissions on the road, not that they are more polluting than others. Read the report attached. It will show that VW Group Euro 5 cars are comparable to those from other manufacturers.
Congratulations on finding an article that fits your agenda. I don't see issues with funding independent research in order to challenge the anti-diesel propaganda funded by Toyota and probably others who are behind in diesel technology.
utter bullshit. You have obviously never worked in the real world. Sure execs are always looking to cover their own arses, but by the same token employee's would sell them out in a heartbeat if they were ordered to do illegal deeds rather than take the blame themselves.
Aah, denial. I love how libertarians always say their ideas have never been tested in the real world. You know an idea is terrible when people will pretend the experiments were never done rather than admit the results !
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You live in society, you get all the benefits of being part of that society - if you're not paying all your due taxes with a fucking smile, then you're parasite on that society.
And no, the people you're thinking off are not the problem. The people getting welfare and such, the ones needing social safety nets because something terrible happened or there just isn't enough labor demand to accommodate everybody (there NEVER is) - their fine. One of the reasons to HAVE a society is to allow THEM to survive instead of starve.
But people who CAN contribute but don't WANT to - THOSE are parasites. That would be you. The welfare recipients you want to get rid of ? Their the REASON to have a society in the first place. You're the reason societies ultimately collapse.
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I've been working in the real world for some 18 years now... I've worked in giant corporations, I've worked in tiny startups...
Frankly - if we assume that the claim is true, that somehow the engineers did something this egregious without any of the executives finding out... then those executives are so utterly incompetent that the board of directors should be suing them for fraud because they HAD to have lied on their resumes to be THAT bad at their job.
In the real world - that's never how it happens. Corruption always goes top-down, never bottom-up. The guys on the bottom are not arrogant enough to think the law don't apply to them, and have nothing to gain by flaunting it. Only the executives can gain from breaking the law, and only they can create incentives to make it worth the risk for employees. Employees don't create their own incentive structures.
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vw didnt make the claim they were low emissions. the uk government regulatory agency did.
it was the agency that certified them that made false claims. not vw. vw just submitted a car for the agency to access.
Da fuck, london has towelheaded [desert] monkey for a mayor.
Fixed.
No, that is not at all what it meant; the years in the quote are the years the EA189 with pollution spewing firmware were on the market. Are Toyota "behind in diesel technology"? I don't know, and I don't care because I don't have an agenda, other than successfully managing to call you out on yours, VW shill.
Black is white...
The people paying the bills are parasites. Those sucking the benes while doing nothing are the ones contributing.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
It produced more pollution than it claimed to, so yes there was extra pollution. The engine was more performant as a result of not having to adhere to a low emission profile, was marketed as such, and VW sold more and made more profit than it otherwise would have. So yes, there was a competitive advantage. You sure do get about, VW shill; I hope they at least pay you minimum wage, VW shill.
only while hooked to the tester.
Thats for clarifying that little detail! You saved a piece of poor journalism!
The people who don't WANT to pay the bills are NOT parasites according to you ?
You want the benefits of civilization but you complain about helping to pay for it... and you call anybody else a parasite ?
Hell you put 'investment income' in the 'not parasite' column... that alone shows how twisted your values are. People who contribute nothing at all, barely pay taxes - and simply rent-seek of the productivity of others are, according to you, valuable contributors... they are literally the quintessential example of a social parasite.
They like to talk about "not working for your money and letting your money work for you instead" - which is a flagrant lie, money cannot work - everytime you say (even if you really think) that's what you are doing -what you're actually doing is letting other PEOPLE work and taking the fruits of their labour for yourself.
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Read the article. Khan wants Volkswagen to pay, not a fraudster. It's in the very headline. Read before you reply.
No, that is not at all what it meant; the years in the quote are the years the EA189 with pollution spewing firmware were on the market
As opposed to all other engines that do not produce any pollution...
Read the actual study. Or the studies it is based upon. The EA189 produces an amount of NOx comparable to other Euro 5 engines. That's a fact. It may not fit your agenda, but I'm afraid there isn't much you can do about that.
Are Toyota "behind in diesel technology"?
Yes. They essentially gave up on it and decided to buy their engines from BMW a couple of years ago.
I don't know, and I don't care because I don't have an agenda
Then why are you spreading lies? Just because you enjoy it?
other than successfully managing to call you out on yours
Well, you got me. I correct bullshit on the web. I feel so busted now.
While I agree that VW management has been negligent, I do not share your conclusion that that makes the company as a whole responsible. It may be fair to require VW to solve the issue (which they are doing in the countries where the authorities are cooperating), but punishing VW for being scammed by their employees is punishing the victim in a very bad way. It makes me sad and angry that many people apparently approve of such a thing. It's unjustice, plain and simple.
Almost every single word in your post is wrong. Why are you lying? What is your agenda?
The money is clearly owed by Volkswagen owners. Just like the owners of any other brand of car with high emissions paid.
The charge wasn't based on actual emissions, but on emissions category. Owners of other brands of cars with high emissions did not pay a cent more than those with Volkswagens, unless those cars happened to be older.
The Mayor is simply saying that since Volkswagen owners were deceived by Volkswagen, and government monitoring devices were cheated, all knowingly by Volkswagen, then Volkswagen should be responsible for paying the fees.
Volkswagen did not know there was a cheat in the affected engines until after they had been replaced by a new model. There is a case to be made that the employees who designed and built the cheat defrauded their employer, but it is nonsense to accuse the victim.
Please elaborate on your magic way of measuring emissions without a tester. Or on how exactly an ECU is supposed to know a PEMS device is fitted.
It's not my magic way. It's VW's magic way. You do know they admitted to this don't you?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/...
http://www.bbc.com/news/busine...
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/v...
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-n...
You can't be this stupid. VW admitted that they cheated. They got caught and started firing execs immediately. It's a huge scandal in the US and Europe. They have recalled 8.5 million vehicles in Europe over this. Where the hell have you been while this was going on? Tell me where the lie is you fool.
Except for your claim that VW admitted that they cheated, that is indeed true. However, grandparent claimed that:
- VW 'deliberately designed an engine that was programmed to pretend to be cleaner than it was'. Not true.
- They broke the law. Again, likely untrue. At the very least, not proven. Legal experts differ in opinion whether the defeat device is illegal. If it is, that is on the people who wrote it, not on VW.
- It 'added to the problems of a city that is struggling to meet its legal air quality obligations'. Again, not true. The affected cars have NOx emissions comparable to other Euro 5 cars. There is no reason to assume that would have been any different without the defeat device.
- 'This was a deliberate devious by VW' (sic). This is perhaps the worst of the lies. VW did not even know about the software until after the EA189 went out of production. This has been reported widely the interim findings of the indepenant investigation commissioned by the board of VW confirmed it.
A number of people (yourself included) are aggressively spreading lies and misinformation about the dieselgate situation on this page. In doing so, you are contributing to the economic warfare the US government (the world's biggest polluter) is waging against Europe's largest employer. You may simply have been misguided by news reports - many journalists seem to be painfully badly informed and they are often more interested in sensation than in the facts, but the aggression in your messages and the number of them suggest you have an interest in further harming the reputation of the company that builds the cleanest cars.
It's not my magic way.
You are the one claiming it.
It's VW's magic way.
Then please, tell me how they do it. And why nobody knows about it even though they are under intense scrutiny since it turned out a previous model had a defeat device. Official enquiries in different countries haven't found the cheat you claim exists. Independent analyses commissioned by environmental groups have not found it. The person who found the defeat device in the EA189 wrote that VW's Euro 6 engines show that common types of defeat devices are not necessary.
The burden of proof lies on you, not on me or anyone else. You make an unlikely claim, so show me the facts.
You do know they admitted to this don't you?
They haven't. You're making that up. They only said that they suspected there could be a defeat device in the EA288, since some of the same people were involved in its development. It later turned out it didn't.
How the fuck is an exec supposed to work out what an engineer has done in code. I have been working in large enterprises for the last 30 years and I have seen over and over where engineers or sales do shit hidden from execs for their own benefit and I have seen execs do shit that should put them out on their arse too. I have seen coders take shortcuts and skip error checking to push code out the door on time to get bonus's, I have watched a team suppress error messages in code because it might hurt their bonus's if execs found out they spent most of their time screwing around instead of fixing the list of bugs they were given. I remember one incident about 15 years ago where a sales guy padded figures on a quote to a large customer as he thought the extra couple of million would boost his commission and the sale was a sure thing, someone undercut us by around a million dollars and 30 staff lost their job as well as the exec, all because of some arsehole that decided to pad some numbers and was good at hiding how he had done it. Execs are ultimately always held responsible but in an organisation of 10,000 or 100,000 where an exec has to rely on his underlings to do the right thing it is not possible for them to know everything they do, all they can do is set the rules and try to ensure people are watching and checking, hell most execs wouldn't even understand what most engineers do.
if you honestly believe nothing ever happens without an exec knowing and claim you have been working in enterprises for 18 years I am calling you a liar. I have 26 years and I see it all the time, most execs have management or business backgrounds so even if they were standing in the room when something like this was being done they wouldn't know or understand what was being done unless it was explained in detail to them. Their job is to provide business oversight and ensure that enough people below them are doing the right thing to stop shit like this happening. sadly these incidents happen everyday everywhere, maybe not on this scale but it is common as hell as most execs are extremely disconnected from engineering teams.
Quite simple really, taxing people to drive to work on top of the VAT and Duty on the fuel is totally immoral, what more would one expect from a member of the self-styled "religion of peace", but immoraity?
You can't read can you?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/...
First Paragraph
"Volkswagen AG admitted to systematically cheating U.S. air pollution tests, leaving the automaker vulnerable to billions in fines and possible criminal prosecution.
The company sold diesel versions of Volkswagen and Audi cars with software that turns on full pollution controls only when the car is undergoing official emissions testing. During normal driving, the cars pollute 10 times to 40 times the legal limits, the Environmental Protection Agency said. EPA called the technology a “defeat device.”
Other articles talk about the same thing being done in UK and Europe.
If it's a lie then every news organization on multiple continents and many governments are in on this "made up lie."
You can't fucking read can you. Try using Google, it's all over the internet. Since you're illiterate get someone to read it to you.
You apparently can't read. The Bloomberg page is about the EA189 engine. It's from 18 September 2015, just after VW found out about the defeat device in the EA189. It does not in any way apply to current VW group engines. Nor does it describe the supposed cheat that misleads PEMS systems that you apparently know about, but nobody else does.
Are you really this stupid? Why take the effort of sending a reply with a link if you haven't even read it yourself?
I'm glad to hear it's just my illiteracy that made your posts seem like they were full of lies. Thanks.
You're most welcome.
Then let London claim money from someone who defrauds people rather than from a company that makes is money by selling cars.
But seriously, why don't you read up a little on the matter? It saves you from looking like a liar when you write things that are not correct.
I proved to you that the product IS defective AND was fraudulently sold. Your failure (by your own admission) to read the post, might explain why you don't know that. So... er... why reply to a post you didn't read ? And what kind of an idiot thinks he could hope to realistically understand things without reading them to the end ? You know -the end of a text is usually where the conclusions are ?
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The deceit was not carried out by a company, but by a group of employees of a company whose leadership was not aware until long after the fact. Furthermore, it hasn't been established that the software is actually illegal or that the affected cars do not conform to the norm they were certified for. Several other car manufacturers are currently arguing that their very similar software is legal due to a loophole that allows any defeat device if it is claimed to protect the engine. In any case, a simple software update solves the problem completely and it has the added benefit of reducing emissions in typical use. The owners of the cars have not been disadvantaged by the software in any way. The only victims are Volkswagen and their shareholders, since they have to pay to pay for the consequences of the actions of a small number of their employees.
Why do that when a simple software update solves the entire problem? The US settlement is completely disproportional to the situation, as is the rhetoric from the US government agencies. The amount VW is paying is over 300 times what GM paid when they sold 500,000 cars fitted with a defeat device in the US, even though GM was a repeat offender with a very long history of cheating and working their way around emissions tests, while VW hadn't been in emissions trouble anywhere for over forty years. Let's not export that injustice to the rest of the world.
You did not and you cannot prove either of those claims, because both are false. Barring any unrelated issues individual cars may have, they work exactly as described. There is no defect. The manufacturer and the dealerships that sold the cars did not know about the software until after the last car that contained it was sold. Fraud requires, by definition, intent and thus knowledge. Even if you are willing to argue that the software is deceptive to the customer, which I think is doubtful, the cars were sold in good faith.
Keep living in denial.
Because that has worked so well for you?
I can stop waiting for you to prove your claim that there is a cheat in current VAG cars, right? And you won't tell us how such a cheat would detect a PEMS system either, right?
Who would have thought...