South Korea To Kill the Coin in Path Towards 'Cashless Society' (cnbc.com)

The central bank in South Korea, one of the world's most technologically advanced and integrated nations, is taking a major step in getting rid of coins in the nation in what is an attempt to become a cashless society. The first step is to get rid of the metal, a feat authorities hope to achieve by 2020. From a report on FT: The Bank of Korea on Thursday announced it will step up its efforts to reduce the circulation of coins, the highest denomination of which is worth less than $0.50. As part of the plan it wants consumers to deposit loose change on to Korea's ubiquitous "T Money" cards -- electronic travel passes that can be used to pay for metro fares, taxi rides and even purchases in 30,000 convenience stores. The proposals are just the latest step for a nation at the forefront of harnessing technology to make citizens' lives more convenient. Online shopping is the norm, as are mobile payments for the country's tech-savvy millennials. South Korea is already one of the least cash-dependent nations in the world. It has among the highest rates of credit card ownership -- about 1.9 per citizen -- and only about 20 percent of Korean payments are made using paper money, according to the BoK. But while convenience is at the crux of the central bank's plan, there are other considerations. The BoK spends more than $40m a year minting coins. There are also costs involved for financial institutions that collect, manage and circulate them.

Comments

Another step toward tyeanny

[ChrisMaple]

Make money worthless, make every transaction traceable.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Other than Paranoia.
Why is a Cashless Society better?

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[thegarbz]

That's like pissing in the ocean to contribute to the rising sea level. We are being traced far more than money ever could already, yet there are very few tyrants around.

Actually if anything tyrants seem to prefer USD as a primary currency.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Marxist Hacker 42]

There's good reason for that. If your army fails and you need to run, USD is accepted everywhere.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Tablizer]

yet there are very few tyrants around

Oh really? A good many were surprised by the Snowden revelations; and there's likely more snoopativity that we don't know about.

And Trump would record every sneeze and fart of all Muslims and illegal immigrants if he could.

The worse tyrants may be the stealth tyrants.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[lgw]

True electronic cash is hard, perhaps impossible, but there are two easy special cases: electronic coins, and electronic traveler's checks.

* Coins are easy because the fraud threat is much reduced for sub-dollar purchases, as is the concern for anonymity.
* Traveler's checks.are non-anonymous by design, as part of support for repudiation. A similar electronic system, where I trade anonymity for repudiation is my wallet is stolen, would also be useful.

But neither is an acceptable replacement for cash. Sadly, cash isn't all that anonymous these days, as the serial numbers are all scanned on any large deposit or withdrawal.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[thegarbz]

USD is accepted everywhere.

No it's not. But the USD is accepted when buying weapons from foreign powers who deal in USD.

If you're talking about general trade then the same thing can be said for every currency, though many others are far more difficult to counterfeit.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[thegarbz]

A good many were surprised by the Snowden revelations

Knowing who you were on the phone to does not a tyrant make.

And Trump would record every sneeze and fart of all Muslims and illegal immigrants if he could.

Emphases added to show why this point is also completely and utterly irrelevant.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[misexistentialist]

If only they were just watching, this is about taking. In the "cashless society" government keeps all the money you work for and decides how much you are allowed to use.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

I was thinking that because coins are made of precious metals, you could essentially double the amount of your country's currency by getting replacing coins with paper money.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we gonna get 4 years of "Hillary would have been worse" ? She *lost*, she cant be blamed for any of the shit show we are about to witness.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

The "shit show we are about to witness"? If that's what you think about Trump making America great again, you should go back to whichever third world hellhole you came from, Achmed.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Rick Schumann]

Mod this up. A 'cashless' society just creates another way to track the activities of citizens, whether they're doing anything wrong or not. It also destroys another form of anonymity. So sorry to hear this, South Korea.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless Satan himself actually exists and came forth unto the earth, immediately disembowelling and devouring all the pretty little babies, fluffy bunnies, kittens, puppies and cutesy wutsies of the entire planet then we can pretty safely say that in the next 4 years we're better off than we would have been if that truly awful woman had become the president of the USA !

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Tablizer]

As the Iran-Contra scandal showed, just because it's not constitutional or not vetted by the other branches does not mean it can't happen.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[TWX]

It's probably pretty accurate that US Dollars could find a market for quick, fairly anonymous exchange everywhere, and for this ability for rapid anonymous exchange, it's probably the most stable. It's also directly usable in a lot of countries right alongside that country's native fiat currency.

The Euro is probably readily exchanged but has not been quite as stable and is probably not usable as a local currency. Up until Brexit the British Pound was probably as stable if not more stable than the US dollar, was probably readily exchanged, but like the Euro, was not really used widely as a local currency outside of countries with strong British interest.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[TWX]

What does 'cis' even mean, besides Computer Information Systems?

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[TWX]

Sadly, cash isn't all that anonymous these days, as the serial numbers are all scanned on any large deposit or withdrawal.

It depends on with whom one spends it.

I can think of a half-dozen kinds of businesses off the top of my head that will buy and sell in actual cash. Places like pawn shops, auto wrecking yards, and other businesses that often cater to poorer people or deal in particular kinds of transactions. If one deals with these kinds of businesses then it's unlikely that cash will be easily traced as it'll go through a lot of hands as those business owners also spend money.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Who says Satan could not possess a women?

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[x0ra]

cisgender: sisjendr/, adjective, denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity conforms with the gender that corresponds to their biological sex; not transgender.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

I see tyrants around us everywhere. Wake up and open your eyes!

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[not flu]

If South Koreans have nothing to worry about, why do they need to keep having 1-2 million protester demonstrations demanding their president step down?

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[alvinrod]

The countries where you can't deal directly in USD have exchanges that will gladly trade it for the local currency at reasonable rates.

If you had to pick a single currency if you were going on the run or needed to move around a lot, I can't think of anything better than USD.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[orlanz]

What are you talking about?

USD is more accepted than ANY other currency globally. The top global commodities are traded in dollar. Just by sheer population volumes in the native countries, the Rupee and Renminbi are probably used a lot. But both those countries keep far more USD debt than any other foreign currency. Euro comes in second, but never replaced the USD in any of the global commodity trades. UK even prices their commodities in USD since the 90s.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[rholtzjr]

cis

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[rossz]

And Trump would record every sneeze and fart of all Muslims and illegal immigrants if he could.

The worse tyrants may be the stealth tyrants.

Given our government is already attempting to do that to everyone in this country, that would be marked improvement on privacy.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

That wouldn't be politically correct.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Charcharodon]

It means "not a crybaby asshole" in most social circles.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[quenda]

What does 'cis' even mean, besides Computer Information Systems?

Its kind of a nerdy political joke. In organic chemistry, cis- is the opposite of trans- .

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[slew]

If South Koreans have nothing to worry about, why do they need to keep having 1-2 million protester demonstrations demanding their president step down?

The protesters don't fear tyranny so much as they fear their latest dynastic president (her father was the third "president**" of south korea) has been corrupted by her confidant who's father was the leader of an unscrupulous pseudo-religious organization (her father was apparently the "korean rasputin" of the the current president's father).

**Her father led a military coup d'état before eventually being elected president

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[amiga3D]

You know, if they're really out to screw you, it's not paranoia.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Not at all. You can go off grid. But once cash is gone, every single move you make will be tracked by somebody. The US government has proven time and time again that they view warrants with scorn and derision and they'll spy on you when and how they want.

Now we are going to give the government the power to completely lock us down? No.. I will fight back before that happens. I'm not delusional, I don't think I can win, but sometimes you have to make the stand anyhow, if for no other reason than to inspire others to do the same.

A single keystroke and all your money is frozen? FUCK THAT.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

No - it's worse than that. Once all the money is the banks, it's easier for governments/banks to steal.

That stealing may be in the form of a hair cut (simply take x% from everyone), or more nefariously in the form of negative interest (i.e. paying the banks for holding your money). With cash, no one will tolerate negative interest - they'll just take their money out, but you can't take your money out if there's no cash.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Government? Make that *banks*.

And they will also decide whether or not you indeed are allowed to use your own money.

One move they don't like, and you're 'disconnected' from your money.

"Oops, sincere mistake or technical difficulty." for minor 'offences', a total and permanent disconnect for people they really don't like.

Like Assange, Wikileaks for instance.

Next are the critical journalists, then you.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry, we'll be next.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Cash person to person transactions can't be taxed, nor any fees added. Get rid of the cash and now all transactions are tracked, taxed and best of all profitized. The last is the most important, the others just nice add one.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[iggymanz]

eh, where is the USD not accepted? It's preferred over local currency in many of the third world places I've been.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if you have no cellphone, car or credit card. Life goes on just fine without them.

You were saying?

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[sombragris]

Not everywhere. Good luck trying to pay anything in USD in Brazil.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[currently_awake]

I see no evidence Trump is a stealth tyrant, he's been very open about what he's willing to do to others.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

There will be no four years of "Hillary would be worse" simply because Hillary is now wholly irrelevant to almost everything. She will be a challenging trivia answer in a few decades because she will have been completely forgotten. Thank goodness.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

'Cis' is a dogwhistle for hatered of heterosexuals.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

The US nickel five cent piece is still close to a bullion coin. There is almost five cents worth of metal in it. The basic composition of the nickel five cen piece hasn't changed since 1868.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Cite any country where USD is worthless. Just one place that you could walk into carrying a million USD in cash and couldn't buy the time of day.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[swalve]

And that composition is 75% copper.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[rantrantrant]

Not just for individuals. If the banks control the equivalent to cash, they control liquidity. This was the main mechanism the banks used to put the squeeze on Greece. This is handing enormous power over to the banks and effectively privatising control over a large part of the economy.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Australia and New Zealand that I know of.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[rtb61]

It is not so much about anonymity in purchases, it is all about control. With a card they do most emphatically control you, you no longer buy stuff, you ask permission to have stuff and that can be denied for what ever reason they choose, in a capitalist society via that card, they can turn you into a non-citizen instantly.

Once you card is blocked you are done, no public transport, all services linked to the card shut down ie no phone calls, no taxi, no food, no drink, you can try walking home.

Via that card, they will be able to control you, your politics, your life and via their cards, your family. It is extremely dangerous stuff, cash in a capitalist society is freedom, no cash and you become a slave, always asking permission from your masters.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure I can, just as I can use almost any currency anywhere.
If I offer to pay twice the value then most shopkeepers will probably accept it.
I've seen shopkeepers accept Euro in European countries that don't use it so you can probably use US dollars in countries close to the US without much problem at all.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Gavagai80]

You really can't most places. If you're dealing with a shopkeeper who owns the shop and pay him enough extra to be worth the trouble of exchanging, maybe (offering $10 for a purchase worth $5 isn't going to cut it though, he's not going through the hassle for $5). If you're dealing with a cashier who has no decision making power, like you are 99% of the time, then the cashier simply cannot accept your foreign money. Nor can a bus driver. Nor can a vending machine.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck trying to pay anything in USD in Brazil.

In Brazil it will take you approximately 10 minutes to find someone who will exchange your dollars with something that you can use to pay anything in Brazil. You will lose some of the value of the dollars in the conversion, but not not that much. This same thing holds in pretty much every country in the world.

If you try to do the same thing with Zimbabwean dollar or Moldovan leu, it will take a lot more than 10 minutes to get it exchanged and the fee will be a significant percentage of the money.

This is what people mean when they that USD is accepted everywhere.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Europe.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck spending your USDs in a shop outside the United States.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

So, a normal person :-)

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Samantha Wright]

In my high school cafeteria, half an hour from the bridge south into the US, they accepted US currency—at a 1:1 exchange rate with the Canadian dollar. It was considered something of a faux pas. Generally people here will tell you to go to a bank.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

And copper has considerable scrap value.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but I will go back to your mom one more time. She's a tasty treat so long as she keeps that bag on her head.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[fche]

... because central banks can then impose negative interest rates, and you'd have no place to hide your savings

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

Nearly same thing in Michigan. I don't think I've seen Canadian bills, but there's plenty of Canadian change floating around. Only vending machines care.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[vel-ex-tech]

From Wikipedia:

The region outside Earth's atmosphere and extending out to just beyond the Moon's orbit, including the Lagrangian points, is sometimes referred to as cis-lunar space. The region of space where the gravity of the Earth remains dominant against gravitational perturbations from the Sun is called the Hill sphere. This extends well out into translunar space to a distance of roughly 0.01 AU, or 1% of the mean distance from the Earth to the Sun.

Hope that helps!

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[mjwx]

eh, where is the USD not accepted? It's preferred over local currency in many of the third world places I've been.

I have never been to a nation that prefers USD over a local currency. The only one I can even think of is Argentina. Anywhere else you always pay more when paying in foreign currency .

Given the high occurrences of counterfeit US notes, merchants tend to reject them in most countries and you have to change them at a bank or cambio/FX office. You might be able to pay with USD in somewhere like the Philippines where a lot of Americans travel, but you'll be paying a lot more than if you changed it and paid in PH Pesos.

Most countries you'll find almost all merchants will refuse to accept USD notes. Same with trying to use Euro in Australia or even British Pounds in France.

But to answer your question, Iran, North Korea.. Just about anyone the US has put on their shit list.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

USD is common in Iran... Converted on every street corner, you could post for things such as your hotel bill with USD direct.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[bickerdyke]

You probably wouldn't do that in coins anyway.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[kilfarsnar]

Doofus... copper and zinc and steel are not precious metals. Too bad your teachers spent all the lesson time teaching you to hug transvestites... if they'd have given you basic chemistry and economics instead then you wouldn't be so useless in grown-up conversations. But that's OK, you get a trophy for trying.

You call him a doofus and then post the rest of that crap?

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[bickerdyke]

The Euro is probably readily exchanged but has not been quite as stable and is probably not usable as a local currency.

Please define a "stable" exchange rate when referring to a single currency.

A Euro has always been a Euro and will always be a Euro, but remember how the USD tanked to 1,055 Eur minutes after Trumps election?

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[mjwx]

USD is common in Iran... Converted on every street corner, you could post for things such as your hotel bill with USD direct.

I'm sure not state supported, but that goes to demonstrate that if the state got rid of hard currency, it would just be replaced by someone elses hard currency.

However the USD is not unique or even preferable as a getaway currency. Due to the high number of counterfeit notes out there, US notes are subject to more scrutiny. Americans I know who travel a lot tend to go to banks specifically to get late series of notes that aren't popular for counterfeiting.

If you were fleeing the law or whatever, you'd be just as safe, if not safer by taking Euro, GB Pound, Japanese Yen or even Australian Dollars or Yuan Renminbi. In fact if you were being smart about it you'd take several currencies.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[richardkettle4]

If only there was a way to circumvent this! Oh wait, there is, like almost every country I have lived in, you just use another currency. Your mistake is to think that governments are all powerful: clue, they are not.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[lgw]

Anonymity prevents that sort of thing fairly well all on its own.

But the use cases matter! For sub-dollar purchases, an alternative to change in the pocket, fine, whatever. For an alternative to travelers' checks, again, repudiation is the point of the exercise. Those are both good use cases for something like this.

It's the more mainstream use of cash, like paying for a taxi, where it's problematic. You can see this in China today: everything is tied to your government-issued ID, so without one it's very hard to move around. Control is obviously the point there, and the system works well for the government.

Re: Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

In Brazil you are more likely to get robbed before you find someone to exchange the money.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[thegarbz]

It's probably pretty accurate that US Dollars could find a market for quick, fairly anonymous exchange everywhere, and for this ability for rapid anonymous exchange, it's probably the most stable.

Same with the Euro, AUD, CND, and HKD, or pretty much every other currency not already under rule of tyranny, and actually some which are.

It's also directly usable in a lot of countries right alongside that country's native fiat currency.

Pretty much only in countries where some tyrant has completely sunk the local economy (or a USA invasion has).
Your logic has a causality problem.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Anonymous Coward]

No, we won't. Stop spreading FUD.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[djinn6]

... because central banks can then impose negative interest rates, and you'd have no place to hide your savings

Yes you do. Just buy stocks, bonds, forex, or gold. Have them shipped to you if you're that paranoid.

Besides, holding cash doesn't prevent them from imposing negative interest rates, they already do that with inflation.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[thoughtlover]

USD is accepted everywhere.

No it's not. ...

... yes it is. While USD continues to be the official currency that petrol is traded in, it's accepted everywhere.

Cash is (still, and will remain,) king... USD, being the king of currencies, is also on a run...

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[fche]

So to protect one's assets from negative interest rates, the closest thing to liquid currency would be ... gold? And to protect one's assets from inflation, likewise?

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[kaatochacha]

here's a few:
http://www.investopedia.com/ar...

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[Bender0x7D1]

Except we know that tracking someone by their purchases is trivial. After all, do you plan on having a cell phone? Then, any card used to pay that phone bill will indicate who all of your connections are.

If you just purchase everyday items, you better be randomly wandering the entire city to make those purchases. Otherwise, they will have clusters of locations to have an idea of where you live. Of course, you will have to walk everywhere since taking transit will also use the card.

Now, you are safe IF you can pull of anonymity - but that is a far, far harder task than it seems.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[iggymanz]

that list is horribly incomplete though, you can go all over asia and africa using U.S. dollars. Street markets will change them to local currency, restaurants and hotels take them.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny

[sombragris]

This is simply not true. Try to pay in USD in a cafeteria in Cascavel or a beach restaurant in Caiobá. I have personal experience. In both cases the owner flat out refused taking USD as a payment.

Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody wants a cashless society except the people who stand to skim a percent off every financial transaction and the government, who wants to be able to trace every credit and debit ever made.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

Direct payment is a huge deal here in Canada, and since it became the prominent means of paying for goods here about decade and a half ago, I've actually enjoyed the freedom of not needing to carry cash everywhere I go.... plus, I can also honestly tell people accosting me for money near where I work downtown or at the subway that I do not have any to give them and they'll have every reason to believe me (so it benefits people who don't use direct payment that much but want to lie about carrying cash too).

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

I second this. When I try to buy something at a store and they tell me they don't have direct payment, most of the time I don't even have enough change on me to pay for it.

Re:Top down decision

[x0ra]

I'm not sure in what Canada you live in, I still use plenty of cash and can't stand Interac transaction fee.

Re:Top down decision

[NotAPK]

Fuck off "mark-t" you won't be happy in Vancouver for long. It's a soul-destroying place.

But in terms of electronics payments, what, you think Interac is a guiding light to the future of a cashless society? Why exactly is that Wikipedia page only 289 words long?

Canada is the only country in the world where I opened a bank account, put a few tens of thousands of Canadian dollars in it, and then proceeded to go about my business. Only to discover a few weeks later that I was unable to *receive* any Interac payment over $100 in value because of my "limited relationship with the bank". Fuck you RBC, you're the most user-hostile banking institution that I have ever known, and that includes the Australian banks, who are absolutely a bunch of right cunts.

Re:Top down decision

[NotAPK]

He/she is a Vancouver hipster douche. It's rather obvious from the wording of the post. You, my friend, are absolutely correct, the Interac system is fucked.

Re:Top down decision

[mattack2]

Well, the only thing I'm "making" off my own transactions is the cash back, but don't tell the credit card companies this, I'd still do it without the cash back.. ESPECIALLY if I can do it with Apple Pay.

Even ignoring the cash back, it's faster/more convenient to pay by credit card.. but since I do get the cash back, it's cheaper too. (Yes, the stores pay the credit card companies, but at each purchase, my price is the same.. and of course I do pay off in full every month so pay no interest. I'm getting an average 15 day interest free loan.. awesome.)

Re:Top down decision

[DogDude]

You're paying on average 2-3% more for everything for this convenience. Personally, I don't like Visa/MC enough to give them 2-3% of everything I spend. But, to each his own.

Re: Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

I ask for a 3% discount for paying with real cash instead of credit cards and about a third of the stores and service providers agree since they pay at least that much to visa/mc/etc and then have to wait for their money so it's a win-win. And I tend to go back to those vendors more than the other ones.

Re:Top down decision

[mattack2]

Like I said, NO I AM NOT paying 2-3% more, because my price is not lower IF I PAID CASH.

Plus, I am getting 2% cash back, so I'm actually paying LESS than your theoretical nobody-pays-credit-cards rate.

Re: Top down decision

[mattack2]

Can you give examples of specific stores that agree?

would they then at least take a check? 3% is probably enough, but I still think it is a pain to have to carry/deal with that kind of cash.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

Not denying I'm from Vancouver, nor was I trying to keep it a secret, but what about the wording that I used told you what part of the country I am from? I haven't always lived in BC, so I'm curious...

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if you're the kind of idiot that uses a large bank instead of a credit union.
Haven't paid an Interac fee in a decade plus.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

You're welcome to your opinions of these institutions, of course, but why did you feel compelled to tell me "fuck off" simply because I relayed my own experiences which happen to evidently differ from your own?

I've been in Vancouver for over 20 years now, and I'm still liking it just fine.

You aren't the first person I've heard gripe about RBC... but there are other financial institutions. That's the first time I've ever heard of anyone being unable to *receive* money, however.,.. unless the source of the money itself was considered untrustworthy.

Re:Top down decision

[amiga3D]

I'm happy for you. Just because you enjoy it though is no reason to sabotage the life of everyone else. I've no problem with you carrying your card around, leave my cash alone.

Re:Top down decision

[Bonobo_Unknown]

I disagree, I want a cashless society. In fact we're in a really uncomfortable place right now, in a semi cashless society tending towards cashless. At the moment I often find myself with no actual cash on hand because I can *almost* live my life without it. Consequently it's a real hassle when I actually need coin or note for parking machines or tickets or whatever. Life would be easier without physical money.

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you still like a cashless society if the bank charged you 10% to keep your money? What would you do then?
Cash is a safety net I'd rather not give up.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

They don't charge me that... would you still like cash if nobody accepted it anymore? The questions are equally hypothetical.

Re: Top down decision

[j-beda]

Can you give examples of specific stores that agree?

would they then at least take a check? 3% is probably enough, but I still think it is a pain to have to carry/deal with that kind of cash.

Generally, dealing with cash is NOT 3% less expensive than dealing in credit card payments for the merchant. There are issues of dealing in cash (some of it occasionally gets lost or stolen, someone needs to be paid for counting it and bringing it to the bank and properly entering it into the books, etc.) While it is PROBABLY cheaper for the merchant to take cash, dealing in cash is NOT free of expenses.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

Whose life are you suggesting that I am sabotaging exactly? The post to which I responded said thus:

Nobody wants a cashless society except the people who stand to skim a percent off every financial transaction and the government, who wants to be able to trace every credit and debit ever made.

My point is that this assertion is false. I do not work for a bank, nor the government, and I have no vested interest in such information being tracked by those organizations. My interests are driven by the additional convenience that it has offered me personally, and absolutely *nowhere* in my post did I even insinuate that people who are uncomfortable with such payment systems are somehow inferior to me or their opinions any less worthy of merit.

Re: Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

Only 1% of my money spent annually is cash, and I have less than 1% of my money in actual cash. The fear of a cashless society is naive. What matters is the privacy of your transaction data. That rests with the banks, and the government has been able to look at that for a long time.

For that matter, the physical currency isn't needed for privacy. That's the point of BitCoin and other currencies. Even if the government pushes for ledger access, what is the difference between that and banks?

Which leads to off shore accounts where your money is subject to the potential tyranny of another nation. If you have real money (I mean large amounts of it, since all money is imaginary anyway), you know how to diversify your wealth across borders and behind corporations which is an excellent hedge against any particular nations politics.

If you're really afraid of tyranny or usury in your nation, put your money in a better nation. If it's cashless, there won't be much of a difference; we're largely cashless already, and they'll be happy to oblige. And if you don't care about leveraging a banks money, sequester it in digital currency, or put it in real property.

Coming full circle, if you know anything about money, you will end up with a bunch of it, and realize most of it isn't held or transacted with physical currency. Let's think now how many people are dealing in high volumes of physical currency transactions...you know who.

When's the last time you went to the bank and asked to withdraw a million dollars? You think that's real money you're using? A tyranny can consolidate physical property into its control and inflate your physical cash to worthlessness. You think someone nicking you for a percent is the risk of cashless?

You know nothing about money, if you think 100% digital currency risks tyranny or usury. I know money, and physical vs. digital is irrelevant. Nothing will protect you from a tyrant (political or financial) but your will and your blood.

That is the reality.

Re:Top down decision

[Obfuscant]

Like I said, NO I AM NOT paying 2-3% more, because my price is not lower IF I PAID CASH.

Some places offer a discount for cash. The shopkeepers, too, do not like to pay the vig to the credit card companies. One local restaurant simply doesn't take credit cards.

But in places that do not have the discount you are still wrong. EVERYONE is paying more to cover the fee for those whose convenience is worth more to them than their money or privacy.

Re:Top down decision

[Obfuscant]

My point is that this assertion is false.

The assertion is quite true. The fact that you enjoy the convenience of paying by card doesn't mean you want a cashless society, does it? You just want to be able to pay by card. As we can all pretty much see for ourselves, being able to pay with plastic doesn't require a cashless society. It's not an either/or situation.

Unless you do, as you imply by using yourself as an example of someone who wants a cashless society, actually want everyone else to lose the ability to pay by cash, in which case the answer to the question:

Whose life are you suggesting that I am sabotaging exactly?

is "everyone who values their money and privacy more than your convenience."

Re: Top down decision

[mattack2]

Thanks, I've thought so too, but the Anonymous Coward claimed that stores would let him pay 3% less if he paid with cash.

Re:Top down decision

[Obfuscant]

I disagree, I want a cashless society. ... At the moment I often find myself with no actual cash on hand because I can *almost* live my life without it.

So you want to force everyone else to do away with what they prefer (cash) because it is too inconvenient for you to remember to carry any with you? That's what "cashless" means -- "no cash".

Life would be easier without physical money.

Most of us have been able to figure out how to deal with cash, and some of us prefer not dealing with large multinational corporations to funnel money around the planet, taking their cut off the top. The fact you can't figure out how to deal with cash is not sufficient justification to do away with cash for the rest of us. It IS justification for having cashless payment systems, however, and there seem to be a lot of them in use today.

Re:Top down decision

[mattack2]

EVERYONE is paying more to cover the fee for those whose convenience is worth more to them than their money or privacy.

Yes, I said this originally.

We are all paying more. But since at each INDIVIDUAL purchase, RIGHT NOW, I am paying the exact same price whether I pay via credit card or cash, I will take the one that is cheaper (later) for me, AND more convenient, credit card.

In fact, today I paid with cash for something for the first time in a long time (except quarters in pinball machines), since it was so much less than a dollar I felt sheepish paying by credit card. (Was using up CVS rewards they gave me.. Not the rewards bucks, they just gave me $2 off grocery, no minimum requirement.)

Re:Top down decision

[x0ra]

Because you are making generalization based on your own bias. You are not "all" Canada.

Re: Top down decision

[j-beda]

Thanks, I've thought so too, but the Anonymous Coward claimed that stores would let him pay 3% less if he paid with cash.

I suspect that many business owners do not properly understand the costs associated with dealing in cash, and it is quite possible that some could give such a discount.

From a business point of view, offering such a discount could generate increased sales that might offset higher costs, so it isn't necessarily a bad move on the retailer's part even if it the discount is greater than the actual decrease in costs.

Re:Top down decision

[x0ra]

.. unless the source of the money itself was considered untrustworthy.

Who decide what's trustworthy and untrustworthy ? The US government has a very nasty track record following "operation choke point"...

Re:Top down decision

[AJWM]

You said subway. That limits it to (IIRC) three cities, and if you were in Montreal you'd have called it the metro.

Toss-up between Toronto and Vancouver.

No idea how the above poster arrived at his conclusion.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

Nor did I ever claim to be. To be perfectly honest I'm kind of taken aback by joe much hostility my remark has generated.

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

plus, I can also honestly tell people accosting me for money near where I work downtown or at the subway that I do not have any to give them and they'll have every reason to believe me (so it benefits people who don't use direct payment that much but want to lie about carrying cash too).

The downside is that if you get mugged you lose cards (hard to replace, potential for identity theft) rather than some token amount of cash. Personally I just carry a sensible amount of cash with me plus the bare minimum of cards necessary (eg. driver's license if I'm driving, none if I'm just walking/riding).

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

Edmonton, the city I am originally from, has moderately large underground rapid transit as well.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

Actually, it's happened to me. My banking card was replaced the next day, as soon as I could get to a bank, Not having my PIN, the attempts that were made by the thief (apparently 3, by the time I got home to report it stolen) to use my card did not succeed, and my funds were fine. I had to wait a few days for a replacement credit card to arrive, however. There were a shitload of inconveniences that I had to put up with for several weeks while I basically had to rebuild what seemed like my entire life, but I was without direct access to my banking funds for only about the first 12 hours.

Re:Top down decision

[AJWM]

Good place for one, given the weather. I left Canada over 25 years ago, so I'm not up on the details. (And I lived in Southern Ontario and Quebec.)

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

The fees are insane when you look carefully at them. They originally had little to no fees as an incentive to make people use the ATMs. But once it had gotten to the point where they were able to cut back on bank opening hours and all but 1-2 tellers in most places, suddenly the rapidly diminishing costs of both the machines and the telecommunications they require ... led to massive price hikes.

Desjardins for example doesn't charge transaction fees if you're above a certain amount, but that doesn't apply to all transactions, and the fees when they do apply are ridiculous. They're fond of double-dipping too; You'll see an extra charge warning at certain POS units in stores saying the bank will be charging extra for this, and it does... but give it a week or two and keep a close eye on your account: not only did they charge you directly the first time like they said, but watch them pull an extra administrative fee at the end of the month with no explanation or justification available anywhere.

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to go to Whitehorse,YT. If the fiber optic is hit in the Alaska hwy there is no service at the stores so people have to wait untill the service is restored. I saw that last summer.

Re:Top down decision

[SvnLyrBrto]

Where do you get force, or even the threat thereof, from what he said? The way I read it, and most other posts supporting the idea, is that the GP described the goal state, and its advantages, without any suggestions on how to get there. And clearly everyone *doesn't* prefer cash, as evidenced by the mass usage and acceptance of credit cards at nearly every level of commerce in our society. I dislike having to handle cash too; and would prefer to go cashless for all the reasons Bonobo described, plus hygiene... physical currency is one of the more filthy things that people often handle day-to-day. But it's certainly not high enough on my list of desires that I would contemplate using force to make others follow my example.

For my money, I don't expect cash to go away via government edict, and certainly not forcibly. Rather, it will be a gradual phasing out led by businesses ceasing to accept cash, or new businesses never accepting it in the first place. Off the top of my head, I can think of four B&M businesses I frequent (A local coffee shop, a quinoa bowl chain, my doctor and my dentist.) that don't take cash, and a few others that accept it only grudgingly and look at you like you're some sort of troglodyte of you make them touch cash. Plus, of course, anything and everything you buy online is cashless. I expect the trend will probably continue until using cash provokes the same groans eye-rolls as when some old bitty pulls out a checkbook at the supermarket. It will be all but unknown, just like writing checks. And gradually stores will stop accepting it, like many no longer take checks. But use of force? I'd bet not.

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

A'greed'.

Also, this stigma that is now "cashless society" was not the same thing when I was brought up. My picture of cashless society was exactly that along side a utopian garden.

The trolls have done to cashless society as to what happened to the term 'global warming'. Now all we need is a focus group to come up with a less hurtful phrase to utilise which allows us to follow that utopian dream.

Re:Top down decision

[x0ra]

I'm glad I pop your liberal perfect world bubble you are living in !

Re:Top down decision

[NotAPK]

It was pure deduction based on the poster's attitude. I only lived there for a couple of years, but that was enough to suss out the vibe of the place. In addition, and what made me comment in the first place, I found a lot of the locals almost "anti cash" to quite an extent, and it just didn't make sense. It was as if cash was "uncool".

Re: Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

Issues with credit cards (chargebacks, funds being held by whatever company you deal with to process cards, etc) are a far heavier deal than walking across the street to the bank. Especially considering you have problems with both methods of payment, but the one?

The banks don't snarf 3% on each transaction...

Re: Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

Bud, this is silly. There are costs in dealing with cash, yes. But, credit cards have those costs (see above post), PLUS 3%.

Re:Top down decision

[AmiMoJo]

If done well cards can be cheaper than cash for the merchant to handle anyway, especially stored value cards that don't rely on contact with a central server for authorization.

Cash has to be sorted, counted and transported to the bank. It takes time for staff to handle it and prepare the correct change. Removing these overheads can more than offset the transaction fees of some cards. I actually really like the Japanese Suica system, and since you buy the cards with cash it's semi-anonymous too. I share a couple of cards with my girlfriend.

Re: Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the hipster-douche part, which can be smelled from a distance.

Luckily it's something one can overcome.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

"liberal"???

Re:Top down decision

[Obfuscant]

Where do you get force, or even the threat thereof, from what he said?

Let's see. If you do away with cash, then you FORCE anyone who wants to purchase something to use this cashless payment system. And I think it is fair to say that in modern society, everyone at some point has to purchase things.

So, "force", in the common usage of "being required to" is quite applicable, and is the correct definition in this context. That's where I get "force" from. From Google:

2. make (someone) do something against their will. "she was forced into early retirement"

And clearly everyone *doesn't* prefer cash,

Who said they did? Where did you get THAT from?

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

Liberal now means someone I disagree with. The words has lost any function, because of abuse by "conservatives". Another words, which seems to have lost meaning too. :(

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

Okay, I was curious... I am dubious of anyone who presumes to know my political leanings unless they do personally know me. For what it's worth, neither "liberal" nor "conservative" would apply to me.

Re:Top down decision

[bill_mcgonigle]

RIGHT NOW, I am paying the exact same price whether I pay via credit card or cash, I will take the one that is cheaper (later) for me

Economists have a term for this: <wiki:Tragedy of the Commons>.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

It makes perfect sense when you realize that if someone steals cash, the thief receives an effective reward for their behavior, but if all they steal are cards that require a PIN to utilize, then the perpetrator has nothing of value that they can use, along with an increased chance of getting caught if they were to ever *try* and use the cards compared to spending cash. As carrying no cash becomes increasingly common, it leads to the actual reduction of such crimes, because the risk/reward ratio is raised to to much higher levels, resulting in safer streets, at all times of day, for everyone. Rather than making things safer through increased policing, which would be characteristic of fascism, it makes things safer by reducing the availability of the incentive to commit those types of crimes in the first place.

My point being that not everyone who would like a cashless society is necessarily working for the bank or government.

It is further my own perception that much of the paranoia regarding such a system is unfounded... While one may theoretically be more trackable, but in general, you, I, and most other people are simply not important enough for anyone else to want to pay attention to - a metaphorical needle in a haystack, as it were... the average law abiding person is going to fall so far below the radar of being interesting enough for anyone to even *want* to investigate that it will simply never be an issue in their lifetime.

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

For an example of why a cashless society is a bad idea, look at marijuana legalization in the United States. Due to uncertainty on the federal level, no banks will have anything to due with marijuana sellers in states where it is legal. If they weren't able to accept cash, then these industries would have never been able to get off the ground. What if it became standard practice to freeze credit cards of people on the no fly list? Without cash, you're essentially a prisoner of whoever controls the financial networks.

Re:Top down decision

[david_thornley]

There's a certain amount of float involved with credit cards, also. I get an average of a month between when I buy something and when I have to pay for it. It gives me some flexibility in my payments.

Re:Top down decision

[david_thornley]

If I don't use cash, it doesn't mean you can't. If I can get along everywhere without cash, it doesn't mean you can't function on a cash basis.

Are you arguing that I should structure my financial dealings to be most convenient to you?

Re:Top down decision

[Obfuscant]

If I don't use cash, it doesn't mean you can't. ... it doesn't mean you can't function on a cash basis.

If it is a cash-less society, you can't. You aren't just talking about what you can do, you're talking about what other people cannot do.

Are you arguing that I should structure my financial dealings to be most convenient to you?

I don't give a tinker's damn whether you use cash or not. You want electronic payment systems everywhere, that's fine with me. My being able to use cash says NOTHING about how you have to pay for anything. But you are arguing that I should structure my dealings to be more convenient for you. You can't deal with cash, but instead of limiting yourself to wanting to use electronic systems, you argue we need to go cash-less as a society.

I say you can do whatever you want; you say I shouldn't be able to use cash. So, tell me again who is trying to structure how other people manage their financial dealings?

Re:Top down decision

[NotAPK]

I know my previous comments were a little caustic, and I'd like to apologise for that.

"and most other people are simply not important enough for anyone else to want to pay attention to "

This claim is generally made by people who have not yet had a run in with the police or the state. What happens is you get involved for something minor, or unrelated, and as part of the shake down that the cops do, they look at every aspect of your life. Here in the UK they just passed a law that everyone's internet traffic is to be logged for 12 months. A lot of people are making comments like yours. What will happen is you end up in police custody and the difference now is that in the past only the "incident" in question would be investigated. Now, the police have access to: all of your financial records, your entire internet history, all of your travel history from the immigration department, and whatever else can be scraped from databases... The police are not your friend. Their job is to hit you with a charge. Period. And they will go over everything you've done. Sure, in some cases it won't make a difference, but this level of scrutiny is (in my opinion) disproportionate to the line of inquiry most people are subjected to by the cops. And of course, it's ripe for abuse. If you don't think the police abuse your power then I can only deduct that you are young and have not yet lived long enough to see it happen.

Ah, we just disagree on pretty much everything here. I don't agree that removing cash makes anything safer at all. Your phone is still valuable, as are your clothes. In areas with *real* street crime you may be beaten up just for the hell of it. Even if all you have are cards, that doesn't stop someone frogmarching you to an ATM at gun/knife point and forcing you to withdraw the max/daily limits from all of your cards. Hell, some street thug may just want a blow job from you or just rape you for the hell of it.

So no, going cashless will not improve safety at all.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

I know my previous comments were a little caustic, and I'd like to apologise for that.

Thanks.

Ah, we just disagree on pretty much everything here.

Apparently.... so we'll leave it there.

Re:Top down decision

[david_thornley]

I'm fine with your "I don't give a tinker's damn whether you use cash or not." I do seem to have misunderstood you, and I apologize and agree with you.

Re:Top down decision

[x0ra]

you live in an urban center, and favor government surveillance, lack of privacy, and a crappy banking system, that pretty make you a liberal / progressive.

Re:Top down decision

[mark-t]

I actually don't favor government surveillance nor a lack of privacy... I just don't automatically assume that the mere possibility of such in a cashless society would necessarily result in either. By similar reasoning, I don't assume that the fact I might be enabling the chance I could get hit by a car on my way to work by walking to the bus stop that is 5 blocks away and having to cross a very busy road on the way is necessarily going to result in my getting hit by a car either.

My point, however, remains... that the original assumption that I was trying to address about who would favor a cashless society is incorrect, as I neither work for the bank or government, nor do I have any incentive to see either achieve any particular gain through a cashless society.

Of course, it's probably so much simpler to just throw labels around at people that you disagree with rather than to realize that a motivation in someone else might be driven by factors that are not so trivially categorized.

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

I've actually enjoyed the freedom of not needing to carry cash everywhere I go

But, to put things in perspective: the problem "It is bothersome to carry with me all the money I have" has to be the ultimate first world problem.

Control question: Can anyone provide a problem that is even more first world than this?

Re:Top down decision

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually don't favor government surveillance nor a lack of privacy... I just don't automatically assume that the mere possibility of such in a cashless society would necessarily result in either.

I do not think you realize how lucky you are living in a peaceful and wealthy country like Canada. Now, I agree with you that I have no reason to believe that there is any imminent risk of Canada turning into something particularly bad without cash. But please do widen your view and think of where it might. In several countries being in opposition to the ruling government implies a risk of unjust imprisonment, torture or being killed. If the government in a totalitarian state has (though the banks) the possibility to track all economic activity for all persons, do you think that will decrease or increase the chance of people in oposition being unjust imprisoned, tortured or being killed?

SubjectsInCommentsAreStupidCauseTheSubjectIsTFA

[lesincompetent]

South Korea is a neoliberal nightmare and this is just another step in that direction.
Go check out how fucked up their society is (especially concerning their elders for example).

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupidCauseTheSubjectIsTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

I've lived in Korea for the last 10 years. People are generally pretty happy. You're off your nut kiddo.

Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Anonymous Coward]

The short short version of this rant:
          - Banks want to get rid of cash so you CANNOT withdraw from the banking system. Currently, if you really don't want to deal with banks, you can pull your money out in the form of cash, and transact WITHOUT them. They don't like this. They want COMPLETE CONTROL of your money. This way they can charge whatever fees or negative interest rates they want.
          - Governments want the cashless society so they can MONITOR EVERY TRANSACTION. This gives them more control, and greater tax revenue at the expensive of privacy and freedom. Also, piss off the wrong bureaucrat or policeman, and poof, they push a button and all your money is frozen. You can't buy food, pay your rent, or pay a lawyer to get the money unfrozen.

Oppose the cashless society.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Anonymous Coward]

You may as well go bay at the moon. Cashless is coming, and the 0.0001% who don't want it are going to be run over in the process. Not saying that's good, just saying that is. You can't stop it any more than you could stop other society wide, sweeping changes such as the industrial revolution (Luddites tried..) etc etc.

It's coming. Better learn to deal with it.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Anonymous Coward]

Original poster here.

I realize that. However, I try and do what I can to slow it down, or maybe even reverse it -- get the word out. If enough people are aware of what it really means, then perhaps they will oppose it. With enough support, cash sticks around. I know, in the long run, its unlikely, and basically a nice fantasy, but hey, I can try.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Rick Schumann]

I'll oppose it with every fiber of my being here in the U.S.. It would be just one more big step towards a 24/7/365, cradle-to-grave surveillance society, where you can't do so much as get a snack out of a vending machine without some government agency knowing about it. Fuck that noise.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Anonymous Coward]

To really get much traction, somehow you'd need to get the MSM to talk up the problems nonstop, ideally with lots of emotional appeals and patriotism.

That might help. But otherwise, people just don't think about this stuff: they react based on how they see other people reacting.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[not flu]

Also if people are hip to the problems of cashlessness, maybe something like darkcoin/dash can gain ground instead of whatever the banks and governments are pushing.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean just like Hillary is going to win, globalism will engulf the world, border less countries and economies, etc....

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[amiga3D]

The MSM are part of the system. Forget that.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Bonobo_Unknown]

It's already impossible to live outside of the banking system if you are employed in a regular job.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[LightningBolt!]

You hit the nail on he head with negative interest rates. The current reason any investors accept negative rates is because it is inconvenient to move large sums of money into cash. When they make it impossible to go to cash, they can really push rates into negative territory.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Anonymous Coward]

It's already impossible to live outside of the banking system if you are employed in a regular job.

Other than using pre-paid credit cards (which I buy with cash) to get random stuff off the internets I live totally outside the banking system.

I get paid in cash.
I pay my landlord in cash.
I pay my electric bill in cash.
I buy food in cash.

I don't even put any effort into staying outside the banking system either.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[currently_awake]

1-It is entirely possible to make your own bank. A group of poor people could easily manage it, provided they didn't offer loans. In a cashless society they could provide basic banking transactions using your cellphone at minimum cost. The big banks would have to match the prices or lose that market. Something will have to be done, as banks hate dealing with the poor. 2-A cashless society can just as easily use a foreign currency as the local one. It's just bits in a computer and the computer is global.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Anonymous Coward]

What country? I know that in Australia you can still legally pay people in cash (so long as you do the tax/super payments correctly): that's how we paid about half of our workers when I ran a cafe, and yes we did correct tax/super. And there are still landlords that will take rent in cash. Bills can still be b-payed in cash at the post-office. Tax returns can still be filled out by hand and returned as cheque, though I'm not 100% on whether you can cash that rather than deposit it. So while it's getting harder to do transactions in cash it is still possible.

Personally I use cash for as much as I possibly can, partly on general principle (I hate being snooped on and intensely dislike big brother tendencies in government and business) and partly from my contrarian instincts.

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[bn-7bc]

And I want a cashless society, it will cut down on pety crime, ie the drug adict snatcing an oldladies purse to get at the cash to pay his dealer. Personaly I yous cash only at thr hair dresser, for some reason they don't have a cc/debit card reader,evriwhere else it is debit cards all the way, it,s so nice not having to deal witch a bunch of couns after each transactiob. The tracking aspect, well I have nothing to hide so track me, but the trackers shuold focus on criminals and rerrorists and don't waste their time on me

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe we should create a currency using metals that reflect the current state of the market?

Re: Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Anonymous Coward]

We can call it Goldcoin

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, happened to me in Canada. Revenue Canada bureaucrat decided that I owed more taxes...and froze my bank account. Cheques started bouncing, bills were not paid, and I could not withdraw cash...basically, they destroyed my life. Oh, and by the way, a few months later, they decided that I was actually owed a refund. Since then, I'm a fervent believer in the power of stashing cash...

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[richardkettle4]

Tip: putting WORDS IN CAPS butters no parsnips

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[wyHunter]

Honest to god, just keep using cash. I don't know how old you are, but in the mid 1970s the USA was supposed to go metric. Has this happened yet? YES you see some metric measurements on things but for the most part people still use ounces, pounds, miles, inches, etc. Stop excusing encroaching tyranny by saying 'you'd better get used to it.' With an attitude like that, why don't you just take cyanide now?

Re:Ah .. .The War On Cash Continues

[david_thornley]

In the US, cash is legal tender for all debts. That doesn't mean people have to accept it in exchange for stuff, but it does mean that, if you owe money, cash works. There are transactions that involve short-term debt, like restaurant bills, and longer-term. Every two weeks, my employer owes me money, and I'd have no legal recourse if they decided to just hand us cash. I'd be annoyed, personally, but that's not a legal issue.

Impact on homeless people?

[Fwipp]

I don't know what homelessness in South Korea looks like, but I can't imagine that taking away change makes it any easier for them.

Re:Impact on homeless people?

[HBI]

Homelessness is almost nonexistent because people with mental disorders generally aren't allowed to wander free in Korea. However, the living conditions in some areas are not up to First World snuff.

Also, the whole country smells like an open sewer and stale tobacco.

Re:Impact on homeless people?

[x0ra]

Homelessness is almost nonexistent because people with mental disorders generally aren't allowed to wander free in Korea

That's awfully patronizing. Homeless don't always have mental disorders, sometime you are in a transient situation, sometime you want to say a big "fuck you" to materialistic way of life. Also, it is very telling about the obvious lack of personal freedom of Korean society.

Re:Impact on homeless people?

[HBI]

Been around the homeless my whole life. The photogenic kind always have a disorder that causes them to stay on the street.

Re:Impact on homeless people?

[Anonymous Coward]

Homeless don't always have mental disorders, sometime you are in a transient situation, sometime you want to say a big "fuck you" to materialistic way of life.

Not that I disagree, but this fits an awful lot of definitions for "mental disorder" in our not-so-dystopian future.

Re:Impact on homeless people?

[Anonymous Coward]

If someone is wanting to say a big "fuck you" to a materialistic way of life and they are begging for money on the street then I got a big "fuck you" for them.

Re:Impact on homeless people?

[x0ra]

I guess it will be the the same society where when Liberty will be outlawed, only outlaw will have Liberty.

Re:Impact on homeless people?

[x0ra]

all of them are not begging.

and all the bank's savings

[Anonymous Coward]

are going to go back to their customers in lower fees.

Cashless Society

[ELCouz]

IRS wet dream!

Re:Cashless Society

[Anonymous Coward]

Bitcoin and barter, the market finds a way.

Nickles and pennies.

[Tablizer]

I wish the US would get rid of pennies and nickles, rounding everything to 10 cents. Or maybe even ridding the dime, and rounding to nearest 25-cents. The hard part is doing it without too many side-effects.

Re:Nickles and pennies.

[Anonymous Coward]

We got rid of pennies a couple of years go in Canada.
All cash purchases are rounded to $0.05, 0-2 cents rounded down, 3-4 cents rounded up on cash purchases. All electronic payments are to the penny.
I get angry waiting in line behind bozo who pay cash when things are rounded down and credit when rounded up. That dollar or so you save a year just makes the lines longer behind you and increases your chances of violence inspired death.

Re:Nickles and pennies.

[maglor_83]

After visiting about a decade ago, I'm convinced the only reason they haven't gotten rid of pennies is because of all the tourist squash the coin machines, that are literally everywhere.

Re:Nickles and pennies.

[TuballoyThunder]

You may get your wish.

Re:Nickles and pennies.

[fnj]

Amen. Get rid of pennies, nickels, AND DIMES. And half-dollars. AND DOLLAR BILLS (yech!). All we need are quarters and dollar coins. Make the new quarters about the physical size of the present penny, and keep the new dollar coins about the physical size of the present quarters. I'd also be inclined to replace $5 bills and $10 bills with coins. There's nothing more disgusting than dirty, smelly folding money. Of course you woul;d keep 20s, 50s, and 100s.

Re:Nickles and pennies.

[CrashPoint]

There's nothing more disgusting than dirty, smelly folding money.

I think you're keeping your money in the wrong part of your pants, buddy.

Re:Nickles and pennies.

[Obfuscant]

All we need are quarters and dollar coins.

So, does that 7 cent washer I buy from the hardware store get rounded down to 0 (FREE!) or up to 25 cents (too expensive!)?

and keep the new dollar coins about the physical size of the present quarters.

The current dollar coins are already about the size of the quarter. You can already carry those if you wish, you know, without mandating a change to the whole system. And you can throw your pennies, nickels and dimes away when you get them if you dislike them so much. You can also throw those smelly one dollar bills away, or better, put them in the ubiquitous donation or tip jars next to the cash register. Or simply ask for your dollar change in quarters.

Re:Nickles and pennies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just use plastic money like the first world countries and wash it every now and then.

Re:Nickles and pennies.

[nephilimsd]

Simple: They just stop selling single washers until inflation makes a single washer nearly as expensive as the lowest denomination of coin. Obviously if you need a single washer, three is even better!

If you build it, they will come

[Marxist Hacker 42]

If you stop minting coins, eventually they'll stop circulating.

Re:If you build it, they will come

[Anonymous Coward]

Eventually can be a very long time.

Re:If you build it, they will come

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Stop minting them, tell the collectors that you have stopped minting them, let the banks sell them off based on some imagined rarity value by year, and they'll disappear from the economy in well under 4 years.

USE CAUTION

[Dutchmaan]

When cash is no longer "in your hand" then it's no longer in your control. A cashless society is a VERY slippery slope and needs to be treated as such.

Small moves are necessary to ensure that there are adequate solutions to the fears and doubts that people will inevitably have about such a move.

A cashless society means you are at the financial mercy of whomever is in control of the little 1s and 0s in the financial sector.... and it won't be you!

Re:USE CAUTION

[Anonymous Coward]

A cashless society means you are at the financial mercy of whomever is in control of the little 1s and 0s in the financial sector...

...and it will be someone who wants you to act like a good consumer, work like a slave and spend every cent that you earn on whatever useless crap or brain-dulling "entertainment" they feel is right for the masses. Try to save and retire early to escape this dystopian hell? Bad consumer-bot! - we're imposing a negative interest rate to bring you back in line. We expect to see you back at work next week and in the mall 10am sharp on Saturdays!

South Korea now competitive fiat.

[Anonymous Coward]

compare to private credit operations of Bitcoin and everyone's fave casino The Federal Reserve System.

Going cashless is an act against wholesome redundancy.

This will work magnificently....

[sconeu]

Until Kim Jong Un decides to EMP the south.

Re:This will work magnificently....

[Anonymous Coward]

Jokes on him, I keep all my finances in the cloud! Safe!

captcha: approver

Re:This will work magnificently....

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope he does, we should be in control of our lives and it's future direction. Not banks, OUR governments and megacorps.

Re:This will work magnificently....

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope he does

No, you don't. You wouldn't survive the first week.

Re:This will work magnificently....

[amiga3D]

Nah, he should last at least 12 days.

The problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Digital money must act like physical money in that it's use must remain anonymous even when a central payment processor (clearing house) is used. Once digital money is separated from a issuer (owner), the problem of counterfeiting arises, which is unsustainable for a national currency.

I suggest:
Money will be held in an anonymous pre-paid account accessed via a credit-card and chip. The credit-card must contain some sort of encryption and signature to prevent counterfeiting. This in turn, means banks must exchange anonymous pre-paid accounts for coins and notes. The supply of accounts (and encryption keys) must be sufficient for people to own several anonymous accounts; that way they cannot be tracked via their purchases. Lastly there must be a way to recycle the cards on a physical and logical level; meaning re-using the encryption key, once a pre-paid account has been emptied; plus recycling the physical card and CPU chip containing the encryption key. Under this model, accounts are not re-loaded, a mechanism to prevent counterfeiting.

There is an additional problem for a cashless society: How does one transfer money from a named (verified) bank account to an anonymous digital cash account if there isn't an anonymous medium such as coins and notes?

Re: The problem

[Anonymous Coward]

"its". Learn to English.

Re:Another step toward tyranny

[rholtzjr]

This is probably why Apple wants to do the same thing. Will this be the direction that the US will follow is still to be seen. I am not sure I would want the government being able to track everything that I purchase, what shop I visit, etc. They already do it with credit cards (which is why I no longer posses any), now that want to eliminate the last remnant of privacy. I just hope I never see it in my life time

Well...

[XSportSeeker]

still shortsighted, but I guess a billion times better than what India is going through right now.

Make no mistake people. All this crap around cashless society has absolutely zero to do with the costs of production, and all to do about population control, bank power, and the end of privacy. Once cash stops existing, that's it... you have zero independent financial control. All your earnings will be at banks hands. All the more reason for banks to exploit clients, toy with their money, and hold a get out of jail free card if they f*ck things up.

I guess one could say that we're already too deep into the whole sh*t swamp to go back, specially in cases like South Korea, but this is kinda the equivalent in economy terms of solving poverty by killing all the poor people.

Cash, in all countries, is the type of revenue that all the poorest, excluded from society, in the most fragile parts, minority conditions and whatnot depends on. Killing cash won't solve their problems, it'll only aggravate things.

But I don't need to talk much about it. We'll soon see the resulting catastrophe that will happen in India if they don't revert the decision. It'll be a huge shitshow. I don't even know if there will be anything recognizable left of the country a year from now if they continue going that way, mark my words.

Re:Well...

[amiga3D]

Welcome to the world of barter.

Re:Well...

[Jack_the_Tripper]

Welcome to the world of barter.

The problem with large scale barter systems is they always, err..."devolve" into a system where a few highly sought after goods become the medium of exchange to solve the coincidence of wants problem then The Powers That Be take over production of said medium of exchange (coinage) which gets us right back to the issue we are currently discussing.

Re:Well...

[del_diablo]

At the least planned obsolescence means that "medium of trade" degrades if its stocked, so thats fine too.
Modern barter is even harder to do.

India just tried to go almost completely cashless

[Nova Express]

Overnight and without warning, the government banned bills worth more than about $1.50. The result has been an absolute disaster:

97% of the Indian economy is cash-based. With 88% of all outstanding currency no longer usable, the economy is coming to a standstill. The daily-wage laborer, who leads a hand-to-mouth existence in a country with GDP per capita of a mere $1,600, no longer has work, as his employer has no cash to pay his wages. His life is in utter chaos. He is not as smart as Modi — despite the fact that Modi has no real life experience except as a bully and perhaps in his early days as a tea-seller at a train-station. He has no clue where his life is headed from here.

These people are going hungry, and some have begun to raid food shops. People are dying for lack of treatment at hospitals. Old people are dying in the endless queues. Some are killing themselves, as they are unable to comprehend the situation and simply don’t know what to do. There are now hundreds of such stories in the media.

Small businesses are in shambles, and many will probably never recover. The Hindu wedding season has just started and people are left with unusable banknotes. Their personal and family lives are now an utter disaster.

Banks and ATMs are running out of what little cash their is shortly after they open.

And criminals

[DavidMZ]

You are forgetting criminals. If there is no cash, and every transaction is traced, it becomes much more difficult to run a criminal activity.

As a famous Swede said:

I challenge anyone to come up with reasons to keep cash that outweigh the enormous benefits of getting rid of it. Imagine the worldwide suffering because of crime, from drug dealing to bicycle theft. Crime that requires cash. The Swedish krona is a small currency, used only in Sweden. This is the ideal place to start the biggest crime-preventing scheme ever. We could and should be the first cashless society in the world.—Björn Ulvaeus

It seems that Korea may beat Sweden to being the first cashless society.

Re:And criminals

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to forget that certain financial institutions are run by criminals. 8 years ago the majority of the population got screwed by fucking bankers. Should we give them absolute control by going cashless?

Re:And criminals

[Anonymous Coward]

Criminals would just use Euros in Sweden.

Re:And criminals

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummmm......

Yeah about that. It actually turns out it's quite easy to run a criminal enterprise in a cashless society and get away with it. Just ask Wall street.

Re:And criminals

[AJWM]

Cash is just a medium of exchange. If there's no officially printed/minted currency, the criminals will find something else. It's not as if there was no crime before money was invented.

Re:And criminals

[surd1618]

If there is no cash, and every transaction is traced, it becomes much more difficult to run a criminal activity.

Okay, let's take bicycles. Most people don't even know that their bicycle has a number stamped into it. Even if they do, and they bother to take a picture, the person who buys it would need to note that number in the transaction record. Say you're the chief of police, there's a wave of bike thievery, and you've spent months making sure that every person who might buy a bike knows the procedure. So the theives switch to stealing seats, wheels, derailleurs, and you're back to square one. Or they find a way to smuggle them out, and you're back to square one.
You could try to implement some kind of UPC registry for every single item, but anyone with any sense would run screaming from that.

Kill the Coin? You mean BitCoin?

[bobbied]

Good luck with that....Wait a min... (reading the article..) Oh, kill PHYSICAL coins.... Still, Good Luck with that!

Was I the only one who read the headline and thought Korea was going to try to kill BitCoin?

I was? Ok, Sorry to disturb you..

To win against tyranny a guerilla war is needed

[Anonymous Coward]

If you haven't noticed we've lost a lot of battles for freedom over the past 100 years. No more do you get to make the best educational choices for your children (government indoctrination programs that steal your money such you become dependant on government for 'schooling'), no more do you get to travel without a government permission slip (drivers license), no more do you get to communicate your mind without prior restraint on your communications (censorship lists of domain names/logging of sites and intimidation of the public/etc), no more do you get to shop or travel without a government tracking your every move (cell phones, cameras, logging, credit cards, automatic license-plate recognition systems on highways and in police cars (ALPR)), legalized mass government hacking of innocent parties, backdoor's in our computer systems (Intel Management Engine firmware, and AMD's got something equivalent). The UK is now logging every application, web site, and messaging you send 'just in case'.

You are not free and the only chance that's going to change is if those who put freedom above 'security' act to focus the fight on one region. There is an effort that was started several years ago called the Free State Project. It's not a guerilla warfare project. It's a peaceful project to organize in New Hampshire those who put freedom and liberty above all else. The project has been successful in attracting 20,000 signers and about 10% have moved thus far. It's six months in and 4 1/2 years to go before we can expect to see 20,000, but we're making good progress.

You can make significant wins when you get enough people (you don't need a majority, just a loud voice) together that are motivated to make change happen. We all know individually we can't make a difference. However together in one place there is actually hope still and if we succeed at the state level only then can we really hope to end tyranny utterly and completely. The reason this will work is states incarcerate far more people than the federal government so focusing on issues at the state level can have a dramatic impact on ones freedoms. This is why fixing pot laws at the state level has worked to fend off the federal government. The feds know they can't win when states fight back. The feds have the military, but they don't have a monopoly on local policing. Despite the loss of state rights the states (meaning the government has overstepped its power to regulate- the fed was only suppose to be able to regulate interstate commerce- not whether or not pot can be grown and sold legally- for instance) still do have some power. The states can refuse to implement laws mandated by the feds. Right now they incentivize and intimidate where they can't constitutionally mandate (they'll tax your population and bribe the state to implement laws, which the US Supreme Court decided was legal). We simply have to refuse federal funding in many cases. And that is hard to do particularly when you get the masses involved. They don't see the laws the federal government demands as being bad and so they take the money for what is often the sake of 'safety'. However with enough screaming a liberty-loving populous can accomplish a lot at the state level. One need only remember the majority of people don't vote and with just 20,000 people we could make up as much as much as 10% simply by voting and doing little else- but because it takes so much effort to move you can be reasonably confident those who do move will be over-active in the political scene which will result in an undue influence on elections in the direction we're shooting for. That means not only do we gain 10% or so we'd end up influencing the the other 90%. 40% of which may already lean in the direction we want (democrats and republicans are a minority in New Hampshire, most voters are undeclared).

Sad but true

[p51d007]

The only good thing is I'm approaching 60 years old, so by the time (hopefully 20+ years or longer from now), I'll be sitting in a chair, spitting up and wearing diapers, watching wheel of fortune and mumbling to myself and won't care.

Won't you

[b783719]

Think of the Pennies?

Now there will be thousands of pennies, dimes and nickels being homeless on the street with no one to pick up.

Sadly, this is the end for them...

[tlambert]

Sadly, this is the end for them...

Now when the National Assembly of South Korea deadlocks on some vote, they will have nothing to flip to resolve the deadlock. Maybe someone will bring a "Pass the Pigs" game...

Re:Another step toward tyranny

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're not yet 70 years old and are still in good health, then most probably you will.

cell phone tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

Make money worthless, make every transaction traceable.

If you have a cell phone you're already tracked 24/7 as long as you carry it, unless you get both a new phone (IMEI) and SIM card (IMSI) on a regular basis.

Re:cell phone tracking

[kilfarsnar]

Make money worthless, make every transaction traceable.

If you have a cell phone you're already tracked 24/7 as long as you carry it, unless you get both a new phone (IMEI) and SIM card (IMSI) on a regular basis.

There is more than one form of tracking. This isn't about tracking your physical location, but your financial transactions. What you buy, when, where and from whom provides much more information about you than your location does. Hell, if they know enough about your interests and habits, they can predict where you will be when, no physical tracking required.

They've got it backwards.

[hey!]

Get rid of paper money first. Replace it with large denomination coins. This would eliminate the cost of printing paper money, which is more expensive because paper is less durable. It maintains most advantages of paper currency, except for one: making large cash purchases.

That's the reason this has been suggested as a way to curb drug trafficking. The highest denomination coin currently in US circulation is $1, and weighs about 8.1 grams. At around $20,000 per kilogram, to buy a kilo of coke a middleman would have to fork over 357 pounds of Sacajaweas. Even if you minted $20 coins that weighed about twice as much, you'd still need over thirty pounds of coins to by a kilo. However transactions in the sub-thousand dollar range would remain quite easy. It'd be a cinch to carry enough cash to cover dinner for two, with wine, at a three star restaurant in Manhattan. Or penny candy, although that cost a dime these days.

The basic strategy is the same: discourage some cash transactions. It's just that it makes more sense to discourage big cash transactions.

Re:They've got it backwards.

[bill_mcgonigle]

That's the reason this has been suggested as a way to curb drug trafficking.

Do you really expect the Army to offload pallets of coins to "lose" to drug and arms warlords in Iraq and Afghanistan?

No Electricity = No Money

[Anonymous Coward]

So the next time a hurricane takes down the electric grid in your area, you will have no money for emergency use.

Re:No Electricity = No Money

[Anonymous Coward]

So the next time a hurricane takes down the electric grid in your area, you will have no money for emergency use.

Good!

That prevents a bunch of people running around and getting in the way of official government relief efforts. Government handles emergencies, not citizens. That's government's job. Your job is to remain calm and stay wherever you're at until government help arrives and then obey their orders.

Cash encourages people to take matters into their own hands and that's just anarchy. Cash enables crime. Cash enables rebellion against lawful authority and disruption of civil society.

The only reasons to want to maintain cash is if you're a criminal, anti-social mental case, and/or wish to overthrow the government.

A cashless system allows the government to better do it's job of guiding and controlling individual and societal behaviors. People won't be able to become morbidly obese if the payment for those extra calories is declined at checkout. All private sales between individuals, like firearms, can be tracked, taxed, and if necessary declined, and the individuals identified and prosecuted. People, publications, websites, blogs, etc that seek to incite radical opposition or violence (TEA Party wackos, Christian churches, Libertarian nutcases, and other right-wing extremist groups inciting hate & violence) won't be able to pay or be paid.

Of course all the radical hate-mongers, Christian theocrats, anarchists, and criminals love cash and hate the idea of a modern humanitarian cashless society! It cripples their plans to incite racism and hatred and to profit from their crimes!

Re:No Electricity = No Money

[gatkinso]

>> The only reasons to want to maintain cash is if you're a criminal, anti-social mental case, and/or wish to overthrow the government.

Not true at all. Visa charges what... 4% on purchases? Forget that. Then there is the whole inconvenience thing - drop a 20 on the bar and walk away, that sort of thing. No need for electricity.

Hell, maybe I just want my perfectly legal purchases to be... PRIVATE?

There are plenty of reasons to prefer cash that do not involve nefarious dealing.

Re:Another step toward tyeanny...ONE tyrant

[Anonymous Coward]

ONE tyrant is enough, if it is Your tyrant...

That's the last thing you should be worrying about

[rsilvergun]

living on the fringes of society by dropping off the map isn't a way to live, son. If you're trying to disappear from the world you've already lost the battle. Instead of worrying about that do something about income inequality. Do something about Wage Slavery. Put systems in place to prevent economic abuses. There's a reason Donald Trump's got a hot wife, and it's not his winning personality...

Honest question, msmash

[Anonymous Coward]

Honest question, msmash: how do they pay for stuff in India? Cow shit? People shit? Or is everybody there just too poor to buy anything?

local curency will evolve

[Anonymous Coward]

As national portable currencies go extinct local portable currencies will evolve.

Re:local curency will evolve

[gatkinso]

Plenty of gold and silver coins out there.

Did anybody read the summary ?

[swell]

Cashless society? I couldn't find that anywhere in TFS. Coins. I did notice something about getting rid of coins whose value is less than $0.50. What am I missing? Are you going to make me RTFA?

Is there anything more subtly annoying than to find five pennies in your pocket? I dislike having even one of those useless pieces of shit, but when I have five it pops to mind that I could have a nickel instead- less weight. Two fat ugly nickels could be replaced by a thin dime that wouldn't weigh me down when I fall off the boat. Yadda... But none of those coins are worth bothering with. There are still a few machines that accept quarters. Half dollar coins? Nobody in a civilized society wants them either. There are still dollar coins in circulation- is that a surprise? Waitresses like them as tips sometimes.

  Many economists claim to have proven that pennies cost society more than they are worth. In the USA the primary value of a penny is in marketing where pricing a product at $999.99 makes ignorant people believe they are paying less than $1,000.

Canada leads the world in beginning a sensible approach to coins. Quote from somewhere authoritative: "Starting in early 2013, the Royal Canadian Mint, with the help of financial institutions and charities, began collecting billions of pennies in preparation to recycle them."

Are we now going to accuse Canada of pushing an evil 'cashless society'? Get a grip, folks!

Re:Did anybody read the summary ?

[Anonymous Coward]

personally ill go with the standard an acuse them of being ice faggots

Re:Did anybody read the summary ?

[Anonymous Coward]

> coins whose value is less than $0.50

The value of coins is not in the guvmint-mandated face print, it is the value of metal they contain and the value of human and mechanical workmanship that created them. For that simple reason there can be no metal coin worth less than half a dollar.

Re:Did anybody read the summary ?

[wildstoo]

Lolwut? They're not molding and etching these things by hand, they're using machinery to produce billions of coins very quickly and cheaply.

Example: A £1 UK coin is worth about £0.03 in materials. Even factoring in the cost of building and maintaining the minting machines, staffing the mint, designing the coinage, etc. many of which are historical costs, the actual cost of each coin is far less than its face value, and certainly far less than half a dollar, and that's for a relatively heavy coin.

I don't support a fully cashless society, for reasons stated elsewhere in this thread, but I do believe we should be reducing the number of coins and notes in the system, and eliminating the smallest denominations of coins. Unfortunately, for some reason, some people in this country have latched onto the penny as some kind of symbol of Britishness and the "good old days" (which is to say, some people are weird) so it won't go away without a pointless political battle.

Re:Did anybody read the summary ?

[gatkinso]

The thing with pennies that they they can simply stop making them. Drawers and couches every where will be ransacked to find more.

Re:Did anybody read the summary ?

[petermgreen]

Stopping production of pennies won't stop lazy customers taking them out of circuation. So without a supply of new coins coming into circulation shopkeepers will quickly run out.

People expect to be able to go into a shop, pay for something and be given change. So the shop owners will be forced to come up with a new policy on how they give change in the absense of any supply of pennies.

Think of the children ...

[taniwha]

Seriously think about how kids learn how to use and appreciate money - using an ATM card is just not the same as holding coins, counting them, feeling the weight in your pocket.

And (USA I'm looking at you) start including sales tax in advertised prices - explaining to a 5 year old that yes he has enough for that ice cream, but he has to calculate 6% in his head and add that to the price, is just insane

Re:Think of the children ...

[houghi]

What? The kid doesn't learn how to add 15% for the tip as well? And is that 15% calculated with or without the sales tax? And do they learn what professions do get tipped and what not?

This used to be the case in Belgium till, I think he 1950-ies or the like.

And about not including taxes:
To me it is strange that people say it is hard for companies to do this, while their cash machines can do the calculation, so it is somehow possible. Also often it is said that it is hard because of the different taxes in different places. That means you are looking to companies that are in multiple places, like those that operate in e.g. Europe where there are different tax systems in the different countries with different currencies and yet here the same companies are somehow able to do it.

It makes it a LOT easier to compare prices if the taxes are included. In Europe we even introduced new money to make comparing prices much easier (The exchange prices where already fixed for a few years). But then the EU is much more customer driven and the US is much more company driven.

And about tipping and the quality of service: I did not notice any difference in the quality of service in Europe or the US. There where cultural difference as there are in Europe, but all in all the service was at the same level in comparable places.

Re:Think of the children ...

[sabt-pestnu]

explaining to a 5 year old that yes he has enough for that ice cream, but he has to calculate 6% in his head and add that to the price, is just insane That's just practice for signing up for phone service.

Re:Think of the children ...

[sims 2]

What are you talking about ATT charges $35/mo for unlimited local and long distance POTS service so our bill is just $55.50
The extra $20.50? 36.9% Taxes and service fees.
Funny that the sales tax is only 9.975% here.

Compare that to our internet bill where we are charged $45/mo and our bill is $45.00/mo

Tech Crash

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupidest idea ever. Good luck getting your cash back when the computers crash.
And the poor and homeless will not have adequate access to technology either.
Great way to kill off 99% of society.

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[Anonymous Coward]

India is not "trying to go cashless". I'm sorry but that is the most retarded thing I have read on slashdot in a while. The government does not have some crazy vision of the Indian peasants all using credit cards and Apple Pay to barter over their wheat or rice or whatever. And they did not "ban all bills worth over $1.50". They REPLACED the denomination of notes, making the old 500 and 1000 Rupee notes obsolete and issuing new notes, such as the new 2,000 Rs note, which is worth twice as much as the previous note. The point is to force the upper middle class and beyond to put their cash through the banking system.

It's actually a drastic but vital policy, since, like many third world countries, India has an extremely severe problem in collecting tax revenue. I know a few upper middle class Indians (my fiancee is Indian) and basically noone pays any tax. Instead exclusively uses "black money" because 1) the tax rate was raised to psychotically high levels by the previous Congress government, and 2) because they can. Modi is now drastically reducing income tax and at the same time forcing people to declare their cash reserves.

India really has no other good option to collect tax: after decades of Congress just ignoring the problem and trying to paper over it with tax raises, this is the only possible solution to the mess.

That's so 1984

[Anonymous Coward]

It really has the sound of Newspeak:

    "harnessing technology to make citizens' lives more convenient."

Oh, yeah.

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[jedZ]

To describe it as a disaster is a bit much. Yes there are long queues outside banks and a lot of ATMs weren't functioning for a while, but a 97% cash based economy in the 21st century is just ridiculous. I'm certainly no fan of the present government but this is the one good idea they've managed to come up with. There's a lot of considered opinion for and against the move, but here's my first person view.

1. You absolutely should not be able to buy a house or a car in cash - yet this is pretty much the norm across much of the country, more so in the secondary market where the amounts changing hands are larger. This means widespread tax evasion at every level, and an unfair burden on those who are part of the 'organised' economy and pay income tax (around 3% of the population).

2. India happens to have a rather annoying neighbour who has set up currency presses for the sole purpose of generating counterfeit Indian currency. Sure, they'll probably start printing the new notes as easily after a while but if the overall cash portion of the economy reduces, the impact of fake currency also does

3. People have inordinate amounts of cash lying around - and I'm talking regular average people. It's not because they have some lofty ideals about anonymity or government interference, just because they can't be bothered to use the banking system. If all that idle money (we're talking 10s of billions of dollars here) were put to work interest rates would drop, more resources for infrastructure building would be available and so on

bartering

[zaax]

Then there is the barter system or other types of coinage, including sea shells.

Re: That's the last thing you should be worrying a

[Anonymous Coward]

Successful people in one sphere of life ( business) attract successful people in other spheres of life ( attractiveness.)

I'm not sure why this is seen as a problem, except perhaps envy, or some sort of puritain value judgment.

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[Anonymous Coward]

... widespread tax evasion ...

Do the municipal and state/district governments not record sales of land and vehicles/vessels? Such large assets require registration in other countries: Does India refuse to do this?

... they can't be bothered to use the banking system ...

Yes, idle money is a bad thing but a banking system is not strictly necessary, it's just easier to regulate a savings and loans service. Money lying around must be attracting thieves: How can people justify holding onto cash, or losing interest from investing?

It will NEVER happen and here is a simple why.

[Anonymous Coward]

This may work in a small country in a situation like Korea but not in major countries that have free markets of individuals buying and selling. Try buying something from a garage sale, or Craig's list, or any other person to person transaction and how are you going to pay for those small transactions? Oh, year. Everyone will have a card scanner and be able to do transactions for free.

Sure. And Putin is a good man who has never murdered anyone. Lollipops fall from the sky as well.

A little less dramatic than that:

[Zanadou]

http://www.koreaherald.com/vie...

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[richardkettle4]

With all due respects, I think you have your priorities wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[Anonymous Coward]

Every assertion you have made is lacking the critical thinking 'Why?'

Why is a 97% cash based economy "just ridiculous?"

What is ridiculous and why is it bad?

Why should people not be allowed to purchase specific items with cash? Who decides that and why?

Why is India an "annoying neighbor?" Why does that matter? Why is that relevant to what they do within their borders with their own currency system?

Why does it matter if people "can't be bothered to use the banking system?" Why is the banking system better? What does it provide that cash does not to the people that prefer cash? Why do you believe interests rates dropping would be a good thing for people that can't take advantage of it? Why do you think that interest rates dropping would naturally lead to better infrastructure? Why should someone that has cash let other people make money off of their work?

Your post is just a series of claims. No critical thought. No logic. Just how you want the world to conform to your views without any convincing arguments.

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[Anonymous Coward]

People are dying for lack of treatment at hospitals. Old people are dying in the endless queues. Some are killing themselves, as they are unable to comprehend the situation and simply don’t know what to do. There are now hundreds of such stories in the media.

Sounds like India is also trying to at least partially solve their problem of the poor under classes and overpopulation.

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[Anonymous Coward]

But how does making everything they worked hard for worthless, solve anything? Why SHOULDN'T someone be able to pay cash for a house? Yes taxes and all that, but there is a better way to handle the problem. Meanwhile here in North America, nearly nobody pays cash for a house and lives with a massive debt the majority of their lives.

Give Gun-Licenses to Everybody

[NewYork]

Cash transactions offer privacy/security to Common man; Govt must give Gun-Licenses to Common man if it really wants a Cashless society; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Indian demonetization hurt poor the most

[Anonymous Coward]

This might work in Korea. However, looking at the Indian experience forcing people to go cashless, it looks like it hurts the poor the most. One is physical travel cost of accessing banks and also geographical vastness. Does South Korea have no poor folks who get pay sufficient to cover only couple of days or weeks?

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[jedZ]

Explain to me exactly how anything becomes 'worthless'? INR 500 or 1000 still has the same value. No one's trying to take money away from people. It's just the physical instrument (i.e. banknote) that is useless. All this move does is encourage more people to use the banking system where their hard-worked-for money is:

1. Safer than sitting around in a poorly secured house
2. Able to earn them interest @ a minimum of 4% p.a. instead of sitting idle

No one is suggesting anybody go into debt to buy a house. They can still write a cheque or use a bank draft to buy that house 'in cash' if they wish. Do they really need to do this using bundles of banknotes in a briefcase / duffel bag? I agree there's a lot of inconvenience and confusion but the scale of the problem is immense. IMHO the long-term net losers in this are either people who have exploited the system intentionally, or those who are unwilling / unable to accept the transition to modernity.

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[jedZ]

Every assertion you have made is lacking the critical thinking 'Why?'

Why is a 97% cash based economy "just ridiculous?"

What is ridiculous and why is it bad?

It's bad because it facilitates corruption on multiple levels. Go to a store to buy something and inevitably the question pops up of whether you want a bill. The vendor offers you a discount if you pay cash and don't ask for a bill because that way he evades sales tax on that transaction. Most people would gladly pay cash and take the discount. With a card swipe the vendor has no choice but to account for the transaction and pay the tax on it. Multiply this across every store in the market, add gas stations, hospitals, basically anywhere money changes hands in cash and imagine the scale of tax evasion. Many people feel a sense of unfairness at the prospect of their income tax being deducted at source (@marginal 30%) when traders and business owners are getting by paying only a fraction of what they're supposed to.

Why should people not be allowed to purchase specific items with cash? Who decides that and why?

The majority of those paying cash aren't doing so just for the pleasure of it. They're doing it for a very specific purpose - to evade taxes. If the indirect tax net is broadened by discouraging these "off the books" transactions the government would be able (in theory at least) to rationalise direct taxes for the middle class who currently bear a good share of the income tax burden. Consider that over 50% of total tax revenues come from direct taxes (i.e. income tax) which are paid by less than 5% of the population. Note: this isn't the top 5% either.

Why is India an "annoying neighbor?" Why does that matter? Why is that relevant to what they do within their borders with their own currency system?

Okay, I'll count this one as a reading comprehension fail. My point was that India has an annoying neighbour that actively counterfeits Indian currency.

Why does it matter if people "can't be bothered to use the banking system?"

It matters because the promotion of a shadow economy has several drawbacks including rising tax rates, constraints on public sector spending and making econometric figures unreliable

Why is the banking system better? What does it provide that cash does not to the people that prefer cash?

How about security from theft and opportunities to earn interest?

Why do you believe interests rates dropping would be a good thing for people that can't take advantage of it?

It doesnt matter what I believe. The fact is lower interest rates are a significant factor in promoting and sustaining overall economic growth and economic growth leads to reduction in poverty levels

Why do you think that interest rates dropping would naturally lead to better infrastructure?

Not interest rates but increased tax revenues means more public funds available for infrastructure projects.

Why should someone that has cash let other people make money off of their work?

Oh I don't know - maybe because they benefit from public services like roads, sanitation and public healthcare?

Your post is

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[jedZ]

Do the municipal and state/district governments not record sales of land and vehicles/vessels? Such large assets require registration in other countries: Does India refuse to do this?

Yes and no. They do record sales and purchases, in turn levying registration charges and stamp duties on the buyer. But since these levies are a percentage of the property value, there's usually an agreement between the buyer and seller to reduce the transaction value to a minimum. The discrepancy between the value of the property on paper and the amount of money actually changing hands is usually no less than 40% and could be up to 95% in extreme cases. The reason this is possible is because a) people are accustomed to dealing in large amounts of physical cash and b) the clerk in the registry office is happy to accept a bribe and look the other way. Less physical cash in the system means more barriers to this sort of behaviour.

Yes, idle money is a bad thing but a banking system is not strictly necessary, it's just easier to regulate a savings and loans service. Money lying around must be attracting thieves: How can people justify holding onto cash, or losing interest from investing?

Prior to economic reforms in the 1990s India had extortionate levels of taxation. In the 60s and 70s tax rates were as high as 97%. This naturally made a lot of people seek to avoid having anything to do with banks and these habits persist. In other cases it's just resistance to change - people were uncomfortable when ATM machines were introduced around 20 years ago. Now they're ubiquitous. People will eventually get used to transacting through cards, digital wallets and online. As for S&L, I'm not sure there is a direct equivalent of this in India, although there are payments banks, co-operative banks (more like credit unions I guess) and housing finance lending companies. All these come within the purview of the regulated economy however and tend to be shunned by those who favour cash payments.

Re:India just tried to go almost completely cashle

[jedZ]

This isn't intended to be a panacea for every social ill. It isn't even a solution to curb all forms of corruption. It's just one measure by which the government aims to reduce the size of the shadow economy, widen the tax base and flush counterfeit currency out of circulation. Corruption is, to a large extent facilitated by the existence of a large parallel economy. One of the reasons bribery is so widespread is that it's relatively easy to convert all that accumulated cash into other forms such as real-estate, gold etc. Does it eventually become part of the legitimate economy? sure. Thats kinda the point of money laundering!.