China Chases Silicon Valley Talent Who Are Worried About Trump Presidency (cnbc.com)

China is trying to capitalize on President-elect Donald Trump's hardline immigration stance and vow to clamp down on a foreign worker visa program that has been used to recruit thousands from overseas to Silicon Valley. From a report on CNBC: Leading tech entrepreneurs, including Robin Li, the billionaire CEO of Baidu, China's largest search engine, see Trump's plans as a huge potential opportunity to lure tech talent away from the United States. The country already offers incentives of up to $1 million as signing bonuses for those deemed "outstanding" and generous subsidies for start-ups. Meanwhile, the Washington Post last month reported on comments made by Steve Bannon, who is now the president-elect's chief strategist, during a radio conversation with Trump in Nov. 2015. Bannon, the former Breitbart.com publisher, indicated that he didn't necessarily agree with the idea that foreign talent that goes to school in America should stay in America. "When two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia, I think ...," Bannon said, trailing off. "A country is more than an economy. We're a civic society."

Comments

This works for me

[rsilvergun]

I'm fully confident America has plenty of talent for Silicon Valley. China's welcome to flood their job market with cheap labor and devalue their Middle Class. I'm looking forward to the Chinese equivalent of Donald Trump pushing a popularist message when outsourcing and insourcing wrecks their economy too.

Re:This works for me

[Anonymous Coward]

China's welcome to flood their job market with cheap labor and devalue their Middle Class

Did you read the fucking summary even? $1 million signing bonuses are not cheap labor.

Re:This works for me

[Anonymous Coward]

For outstanding talent. Hint, you are not outstanding talent. I am not outstanding talent. Linus Torvalds might be outstanding talent. Most of the people that would be effected by anything Trump would do, China would kindly give them a work visa and that's it. And with the animosity I've seen between our Chinese workers and our Indian workers, if the guy is from India, they might not even be willing to do that.

Re:This works for me

[geekmux]

China's welcome to flood their job market with cheap labor and devalue their Middle Class

Did you read the fucking summary even? $1 million signing bonuses are not cheap labor.

Huh, maybe you're right.

Maybe China doesn't pay their CEOs tens of millions of dollars to be able to afford that kind of expense.

Ain't it amazing what you can offer when the CEO doesn't make 500x more than the average skilled employee? I wonder when we'll learn that lesson...

Re:This works for me

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm fully confident America has plenty of talent for Silicon Valley. C

Yes of course but that talent will be eroded over time with these stupid policies. Keeping away immigrants such as the future the Elon Musks coming from South Africa, or their parents, such as the Lebanese immigrant father who gave birth to a guy named Steve Jobs... Yeah sure, sound like a really smart thing to do.

Re:This works for me

[butchersong]

I doubt Trump has a huge problem with the legal visa process. The visa system just need to be restructured to give all the power to the worker allowing them to easily move from one company to another without fear of getting kicked out of the country. It seems to me that it is the power the company has over the foreign worker that allows them to drive wages down.

Re:This works for me

[Austerity Empowers]

$1 million signing bonuses are not cheap labor.

Those aren't for the average H1B, in fact probably not for H1B's at all. Those are for top tier talent, possibly white americans to basically export their knowledge and kickstart their startups. "Hey, I have money and labor, come make your idea work."

This isn't for the guy they brought in to break your exchange server and fix it for money, or write a horribly bad OS for Microsoft. They'll take them too if they're indeed cheap, but it's unclear that the labor arbitrage situation will work out well for this.

Re:This works for me

[__aaclcg7560]

I wonder when we'll learn that lesson...

When people stopped chasing after the American Dream to have it all and learn to live a modest lifestyle.

Re:This works for me

[Maritz]

The one advantage of the Chinese setup is you don't get a demagogue rising to the top purely by promising the ignorant and hateful everything they hope to get (basically make brown people go bye-bye isn't it?). I guess the next four years will reveal if that's important or not.

Re:This works for me

[NetNed]

Also if you RTFA the stipulation for the $1 million is that you are a Nobel Prize winner. Other thing that stood out in the article was this Li made that announcement at a "state sponsored speech" which translates to propaganda last time I checked.

Re:This works for me

[CaptainDork]

I'm fully confident America has plenty of talent for Silicon Valley.

There's the problem.

Your "full confidence" is unfounded. TFS and TFA prove you wrong.

What part of

"When two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia ..."

gives you that confidence?

Bannon is clearly stating that he would sacrifice common sense for racial purity.

There's a reason the Pure Race is poorly represented in Silicon Valley.

Re:This works for me

[Kohath]

$1 million signing bonuses

Also 72 virgins, luxury accommodations, white sand beaches, monkey butlers, gourmet food -- dine with your favorite celebrities! It's truly a workers' paradise.

Re: This works for me

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you fucking kidding? You must know absolutely nothing about China's politics and history...

Re: This works for me

[Joe_Dragon]

and now they have good unions and a GOOD trades systems that gives people real skills and not years of a theory loaded class room. Also the people who do go to college also don't exit with a $35K+ loan.

Re:This works for me

[ITRambo]

In that case, lesson learned.

Re:This works for me

[jedidiah]

> When people stopped chasing after the American Dream to have it all and learn to live a modest lifestyle.

A "modest lifestyle" is for slaves and peasants. Even a single wide is better than some of the "modest" accommodations in western Europe.

Been there. Done that. No thanks.

Re:This works for me

[rholtzjr]

Geez, really!!!, have you looked at the definition of demagogue? This describes EVERY politician running for or already in office. To continue to state this shows just how much you have been brainwashed by the media.

Re: This works for me

[Anonymous Coward]

Enough with the idiotic comparisons to NAZI Germany, not even The Hitler could have seized power in the US as he was able to do in Germany and Trump, if he even intended to do so, cannot do so either. Hitler was made possible due to the horrible punishments inflicted on Germany as part of the Treaty of Versailles which crushed German industry and led to out of control inflation. This caused a level of desperation unlike anything seen elsewhere. Then you had the German political system that allowed Hitler to be elected Chancellor and then usurp the Presidency, combining two positions that were supposed to be separate and giving him great power with few checks and balances.

We have three strong and independent branches of government. There is no way to combine or usurp the powers of the differing branches to create a supreme leader. And There is no love for Trump on either side of the aisle in Congress. The Dems hate him, and the Republicans don't trust him. He is not, and will not be another Hitler. Our form of government will not allow it. We are not the Weimar Republic hastily setup and installed at the end of WWI.

Re:This works for me

[__aaclcg7560]

A "modest lifestyle" is for slaves and peasants.

That probably explain why people view me as being poor. I don't have a big house with an underwater mortgage, the newest cars on lease or $180 designer jeans. I'm never stressed out that I don't have the latest toy than the guy down the street.

Re:This works for me

[Tablizer]

The one advantage of the Chinese setup is you don't get a demagogue rising to the top purely by promising the ignorant and hateful everything they hope to get...

Apparently you didn't study the birth of communism or the later "Cultural Revolution".

If factory automation gets inexpensive enough that it starts replacing all those factory workers in China, the country will again be ripe for some potentially ugly revolutions and demagogues. The Chinese citizens have shown multiple times they are not afraid of protesting and civil resistance, at least.

Re:This works for me

[Jzanu]

I'm fully confident America has plenty of talent for Silicon Valley. C

Yes of course but that talent will be eroded over time with these stupid policies. Keeping away immigrants such as the future the Elon Musks coming from South Africa, or their parents, such as the Lebanese immigrant father who gave birth to a guy named Steve Jobs... Yeah sure, sound like a really smart thing to do.

This post deserves more attention.

Re: This works for me

[Rei]

Such an oversimplistic reading.

1) The real thing that led enabling Hitler was the battle with communism. The Communists plus the Nazis had finally achieved just barely over half of the votes, meaning that you had to work with at least one of them - something that the moderates found horrifying. Of course, many people who voted for the Nazis did so because they thought they were the only ones tough enough to stand up to the communists. Parliament ultimately sided with the Nazis, who had sold the public and parliament on the idea that there was an imminent communist revolution about to take place.

Summary: fearmongering (and outright fictions) about "the great threat if the other side seizes power" causes the public and parliament to acquiesce to someone they're very apprehensive about.

2) The way Hitler leveraged that into a dictatorship was through driving out those likely to oppose him on bills to consolidate his power, and negotiating with the rest. First, with fear of a Communist revolt stirred up by the Reichstag Fire, he got the Reichstag Fire degree passed, allowing for the elimination of his communist opponents. Intimidation from Nazi paramilitaries also managed to intimidate some other people from taking or attending office. The key element he needed to gain full state power was the Enabling Act, which required a sizeable supermajority. This was achieved with a combination of paramilitary intimidation and horse trading. The Catholics failed to see, until it was too late, how much of a threat he really was, and so traded the enshrinement of provisions favorable to the Catholic Church for the extra votes needed to get the Enabling Act passed.

Summary: Paramilitary intimidation and use of the powers of the state to get enough power to horse trade your way to complete control.

#1 is fully and completely applicable, and anyone who pretends it can't apply to the US is kidding themselves. #2 is at present, not applicable. However, I should stress "at present". First, the Republicans control all branches of government (or at least will shortly after appointing at least one, and likely two or more) Supreme Court justices. Fear of the base has so far shown effective at keeping wayward Republicans in-line. Republicans also control nearly the 75% of state legislatures needed to pass constitutional amendments. So the prospect of an "enabling act" type amendment is actually plausible, so long as the grounds for it can be stirred up.

Stirring up? You have a president elect who directly coordinated actions with foreign state intelligence services to dig up dirt on his opponents (as now admitted to by the Russians, both the coordination and the giving the info to Wikileaks). He obviously has no qualms about this sort of thing. Now he's getting the keys to the candystore, so to speak - full control over US intelligence services. J. Edgar Hoover managed to maintain a disturbing level of control through such means, and he's far from the limit of what sort of pressures can be exerted. Things need not be only backroom, Hoover-style blackmail, but can also be very public "airing of dirty laundry" to rally the public against desired targets - political or public, foreign or domestic.

One thing that Trump thankfully lacks is a paramilitary. As long as this remains the case, I'll feel a lot more comfortable.

But still uneasy.

No, I don't think that it's at all likely Trump will try to achieve "President for Life" status. Honestly, that's near the bottom of my list of concerns, and it's a long list. But I think it's naive to pretend that it couldn't happen, given the right combination of provocations. Nobody in Germany in the 20s would have ever guessed that the 30s would see them in a Nazi dictatorship. The concept seemed the height of absurdity.

Re: This works for me

[Jzanu]

Great summary, politics is politics meaning war and subterfuge are the driving elements. Trump risks throwing the US into war as a last desperate grasp at power where the very forces of idiocy and fear which elevated him are the causes of its loss. America was once a great power for the betterment of the world but was shackled by the in-house bickering and backstabbing like Rome.

Re:This works for me

[JackieBrown]

Huh, maybe you're right.

Maybe China doesn't pay their CEOs tens of millions of dollars to be able to afford that kind of expense.

Ain't it amazing what you can offer when the CEO doesn't make 500x more than the average skilled employee? I wonder when we'll learn that lesson...

Well... that covers 10 employee of the 1 million dollar bonus.

Sorry, but the pool for CEO is a lot smaller than the average skilled worker. That drives wages up. Just like the pool of skilled workers is smaller than unskilled which is what drives those wages up.

People would be a lot happier if they weren't so worried about keeping up with the Jones.

Re:This works for me

[Jzanu]

That is your personal bias. Read it again. You may need some literacy classes first.

Re: This works for me

[Grishnakh]

So where are they going?

It was easier for smart Germans in the 20s-30s: they could just go to America, or maybe Canada. It was easy to get in, it was industrialized, etc.

Where are smart Americans going to go now? There really aren't a lot of great places to flee to. You could go to Canada, but Canada is basically joined at the hip with America. If America's economy tanks, Canada's goes right with it, and Canada seems like they're usually echoing America's moves. You could go to the UK, but they're even worse: the pay for tech workers there is atrocious (like half of what you get in a decent tech hub here) while the cost of living is insane, and they're busy trying to turn themselves into the place envisioned in "1984". You could go to China, but you'll need to learn Mandarin (no easy feat) and wear a gas mask at all times because the pollution is so horrific. You could go to Japan, but you'll need to learn Japanese (also not easy, but probably easier than Mandarin), and they're really not that welcoming of foreigners, nor are you likely to get a great tech job there. Plus with Trump in charge, America might pull back on their support of Japan and China could end up taking over the whole region. You could go to western Europe, like Germany, where it's not so hard to learn the language, and it'd be easy to adjust to the culture and food, but they don't seem to be that interested in immigration from America for some reason so it's not very easy to get in. Plus they seem to be having a lot of problems with unrest and terrorism lately, and are busy electing their own far-right demagogues that look much worse than Trump.

I do read about American expats living in places like Cambodia, but I can't imagine that places like that have much to offer experienced tech workers. Perhaps Australia?

Re: This works for me

[NetNed]

Well considering that the Smith Mundt act was repealed under President Obama, our government can now use propaganda on it's citizens. The dumbing down of the snowflake, "lets protest everything" generation makes it easier for them to push that, but they missed one thing. No one trusts the mainstream media here and it's losing viewers left and right. That's why they come up with sensationalism like this story to try and snag a viewer or clicker in with bullshit. Anyone with a little bit of reading comprehension can see past the bullshit. But back to your original, stupid post. Compared to China, we are a thousand times more free. Don't think so? Try the same protest we've seen over here in Tiananmen square. Enjoy the tank tread tattoo.

Re:This works for me

[Dutch Gun]

Or, we could stop rubber-stamping the process of importing cheap labor for the express purpose of driving wages down. I have no problem with the legal visa process. I just have a problem with what it's actually used for in many cases.

Re:This works for me

[JackieBrown]

There's the problem.

Your "full confidence" is unfounded. TFS and TFA prove you wrong.

What part of

"When two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia ..."

gives you that confidence?

I would think you would think this is a good thing since you think they they a big part of the problem. "Add to that the shortsighted greed of CEO and shareholders, which directly caused the loss of jobs, and America gets angry." - by by CaptainDork

Re:This works for me

[Sir_Eptishous]

When people stopped chasing after the American Dream to have it all and learn to live a modest lifestyle.

Which is interesting, because "a modest lifestyle" was the norm until the mid 1950s.
I grew up with my grandmother and heard plenty about what life was like in the first half of the 20th century, which is to say, much, much different that what we have now.

This over the top consumerist planet killing lifestyle we have enjoyed since then is quite an anomaly, and won't last.

Re:This works for me

[cfalcon]

> The visa system just need to be restructured to give all the power to the worker allowing them to easily move from one company to another without fear of getting kicked out of the country.

There's two common complaints- one of them is that the visa system can be used as a way to guarantee very compliant workers. The second is that these compliant workers compete with local workers. I have no real idea what Trump thinks about the system: he certainly hasn't spent much time talking about the plight of the foreigners who come into the corporatist system with a set of rules that would never be allowed to be laid upon citizens, to make them some kind of labor-class, be it visas that glue you to a specific company or farm workers who are forced to put up with terrible conditions. If he's serious about cutting these numbers down with deportation, that solves the problem via fiat. If he actually tries to get anti-corporatist laws that do what you suggest through Congress, that solves the problem via market. Both of these would be pretty big efforts, but the Republican Congress is a lot more likely to go along with the first than the second.

Re:This works for me

[cfalcon]

You're modded insightful? Fucking Mao was a populist demagogue who murdered like fifty fucking million Chinese. He's one of the top murderers in human history, and he happened within the lifetime of many alive today.

Re:This works for me

[CaptainDork]

American students are ill-prepared and unmotivated to do well in our schools.

In addition, the student loan sharks put Americans in the hole upon graduation.

Foreign students have the drive and long-term vision that serve them well, and they are subsidized by their home country.

I think America should work to attract the best minds, with an aggressive immigration retention program.

Bannon doesn't support that.

He would clearly let America sink to the bottom in an effort to maintain American purity.

That kind of thinking is batshit crazy.

Re:This works for me

[__aaclcg7560]

This over the top consumerist planet killing lifestyle we have enjoyed since then is quite an anomaly, and won't last.

I read somewhere that the 20th century was probably a historical fluke in comparison to the centuries before. Things will probably get worse in the coming centuries.

Re: This works for me

[Jzanu]

Come to Germany.

Re: This works for me

[cfalcon]

> Smart people are leaving here.

Are they? I mean, Trump isn't leading the country yet, so we don't know. But there were PLENTY of people who said they WOULD leave- celebrities, mostly- and they sure as shit haven't done so. If America becomes a dystopia, you will see luminaries run away. This is at least testable.

> as humans become smarter they become more left leaning

This is inaccurate. Hell, the average IQ of Republicans is higher than that of Democrats, but by a trivial amount. Intelligence isn't correlated with political leaning.

> I for one am happy to leave.

You posted as AC, so it's not like we can check on your progress.

Re: This works for me

[Grishnakh]

From what I can tell, Germany is not easy to emigrate to if you're coming from North America. Also, they seem to be having a lot of trouble with domestic unrest lately because of all the middle eastern immigrants (same goes for France).

Re:This works for me

[Notabadguy]

From the article:

Under a multi-category scheme updated in October last year, the highest incentive for so-called "Outstanding Talent" — a designation open for foreigners from 24 countries, including the United States, if the individual won a Nobel Prize in economics or physics — is an outright lump sum allowance of close to $1 million or 10 years free housing in a 2,200-square-foot apartment.

A lower category, an "Overseas Talent" who starts a business in the city, can receive a subsidy of up to $150,000.

Re:This works for me

[JackieBrown]

In addition, the student loan sharks put Americans in the hole upon graduation.

You mean the government?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
It's amazing what was slid into healthcare reform

Re: This works for me

[Anonymous Coward]

By the dumbed-down snowflake "let's protest everything" generation I assume you mean the ones who are protesting that foreign workers are stealing jobs (when most of those jobs are gone due to automation), and all Muslims are terrorists. Or possibly the people who believe Steve Bannon claiming that two thirds or three quarters of Silicon Valley CEOs are Asian - you'd have to be pretty dumb to believe that. Still, I'm glad to hear that people are finally waking up to the fact that mainstream media, like Breitbart, are full of lies.

Re: This works for me

[Jzanu]

Try the blue visa for skilled workers. Especially IT. Advanced education helps, because your job must be unique and demand unmet by Germans, who are mostly college educated at minimum.

Re:This works for me

[Jodka]

The one advantage of the Chinese setup is you don't get a demagogue rising to the top purely by promising the ignorant and hateful everything they hope to get....

True, they tend to rely more on torture and execution of political dissidents over there.

 

Re:This works for me

[TechyImmigrant]

Right, you have lived in Europe. We totally believe that.........

I have. I don't remember seeing things like single-wides that people live in in the USA.

Re:This works for me

[__aaclcg7560]

so basically you are cattle

Why would I be "cattle" if I'm not following the herd that's stampeding for no reason at all?

Re:This works for me

[MightyMartian]

I can't imagine China representing much of a threat to talent fleeing the US. There are other English-speaking countries, one that isn't that far away, that is ramping up its demand for skilled immigrants.

Re:This works for me

[fiannaFailMan]

If Silicon Valley tech labor is so cheap, how come tech workers are still out-bidding the working class and mopping up all the housing in San Francisco?

Re: This works for me

[the_Bionic_lemming]

Is france in western europe? Because they seem to have a problem with cars burning and muslims.

Re:This works for me

[theArtificial]

What occurs in the media and from the quoted post is conflating illegal immigration with legal. The United States grants more people entry than any other country. Naturalization trends of the last 30 years. Permanent Immigrants last 10 years which shows anywhere from 2-5 times what the next country, Germany, permits. Despite what that the media portrays and your sympathies with respect to another post the US welcomes people coming in legally.

Re: This works for me

[Gilgaron]

Most of them are still Republican electors... if they rejected Trump it'd be Pence or perhaps a surprise with Kasich if the Republican faithless electors thought they could get the Democrat electors would be more likely to cooperate on him.

Re: This works for me

[aristotheron]

Where exactly are you getting this perception 1) of what the mainstream media is, and 2) that people are not paying attention to it anymore? 3) Why should 'the government' need to avoid using 'propaganda' when to begin with it has absolutely no consentual definition and therefore would be impossible to 'prove' as propaganda without a consensus in each case of its use (and the point of propaganda is that it is tailored to be undetectable to its targets). MOREOVER why should the government need to use propaganda at all when the 'privately owned' media machine is already the walls and ceiling of america's "safe space"? Are you assuming some separation of business and government, that is, you propose that corruption is not the default state of things and that the government is not corrupt? 4) You say we are "one thousand times more free" than China. Freedom is a linear scale that can be measured by any event that you cherry-pick? Don't you think it makes a bit more sense to have a clear idea of what human life consists of and compare each aspect of life to each country and then judge freedom? Do you have any evidence or rationale? Or are you just amalgamating a bunch of headlines that you read here into a totally uninformed rant? You denounce sensationalization yet your post seems to be pure sensationalism with absolutely no substance. You seem to have watched way, way too much TV in your life and have developed an extremely warped view of what a persuasive argument should be composed of, and have been deprived of an example of what coherent thought is.

Re:This works for me

[aristotheron]

From Middle French démagogue, from Ancient Greek (dmaggós, “popular leader, mob leader”), from (dêmos, “people”) + (aggós, “guide”)

Okay, and what insight does this definition provide to the overall workings of politics or of life at all?

Re: This works for me

[outlander]

They're already talking about throwing it into the house, where the GOP will put Mr. Kasich in - and he is no less moderate than Mr. Trump, just better behaved. This will happen despite the fact that Ms. Clinton has a very clear popular vote lead of some 2.5MM votes, because partisan behavior is essentially not possible to overcome.

Re:This works for me

[dduck]

Hmm, I am working in Silicon Valley in a major tech company, and I am definitely not seeing a surplus of talent here. In fact, we usually have a hard time finding and retaining qualified people, even for somewhat generic positions.

Re:This works for me

[lgw]

Those are for top tier talent, possibly white americans to basically export their knowledge and kickstart their startups

Western-appearing people are a real prestige thing for Chinese companies. To the point where they'll hire non-technical people who are good at public speaking to give power-point presentations, and pretend the speaker is the chief architect (jobs like this are known as "white monkey jobs"). I expect they'd be willing to pay a hefty premium for actual skilled talent from the West.

Being a fashion thing, it could vanish any year, but for once there's a situation where "White guy form America" is actually a plus in the tech labor market.

Re: This works for me

[Jzanu]

Try reading the fucking summary.

Re: This works for me

[Jzanu]

Literacy. It is important. The post said it would keep away "immigrants" meaning all of them. Idiot.

Re:This works for me

[rholtzjr]

The one advantage of the Chinese setup is you don't get a demagogue rising to the top purely by promising the ignorant and hateful everything they hope to get (basically make brown people go bye-bye isn't it?).

The context in which it was used in the previous post was basically making campaign promises that every politician makes. They all try to appeal to their constituents with promises that will alleviate their concerns about the current direction. ALL of them do it.

Re:This works for me

[Jzanu]

You are a fucking idiot. Recognizing the historical pattern of how democracy is subverted into totalitarianism is legitimate. Recognizing the risk to identifiable minorities when supremacists gain political traction is legitimate. The rest of it is a sign of your immaturity and obsession with Internet BS. Go outside kid.

Re:This works for me

[penandpaper]

I wonder what happened before the 50s that would cause 'a modest lifestyle'. I wonder how long it takes to dismantle an economic war machine. What was the 'modest lifestyle' like during the 'Roaring Twenties'?

Re:This works for me

[lgw]

I'm old enough to remember how Regan was Hitler. We all remember how Bush was Hitler. But, hey, I'm sure there's a wolf this time.

Also, your characterization of people* who say "let's have less immigration while the economy sucks" as "supremacists" is cute. They must be racists, right? It's also the reason Trump won. Keep it up.

(*) About 1/3rd of America, ditto Brexit voters and the coming Ixit voters.

Re:This works for me

[Jzanu]

How about Mussolini? Not that old are you? Trump is the American Berlusconi but even more inept and incompetent, who dreams of Mussolini. You need to get out of America more, it isn't the world by a long shot. Your knowledge of the world is also severely lacking.

Re:This works for me

[lgw]

Heh, Italy just rejected the attempt to create a new Mussolini, signalling that an Ixit is likely on the Horizon - a move that's been called "Trump-aligned" as well as "Brexit-aligned".

Rejecting the power of a central government to impose unwanted immigration on the people is an anti-authoritarian move.

Re:This works for me

[theArtificial]

I realize English isn't your first language and your understanding of the situation is inherently that of an auslander. I'll quote the post since you're being dishonest and also not addressing any of the points I raised: Here's a link the post, since you're unable to see what you quoted.

I'm fully confident America has plenty of talent for Silicon Valley. C

Yes of course but that talent will be eroded over time with these stupid policies. Keeping away immigrants such as the future the Elon Musks coming from South Africa, or their parents, such as the Lebanese immigrant father who gave birth to a guy named Steve Jobs... Yeah sure, sound like a really smart thing to do.

This post deserves more attention.

The bold part is the post you wanted more attention on, and I inferred that you agree with it? The argument is future immigration policy would deny people (South Africans, Lebanese) legally immigrating? Evidently having a discussion about immigration always is conflated with illegal immigration, why is that? Your media is complicit in selective reporting similar to ours. The sole reason for these people being in the country at all is because of a good immigration policy and they didn't come here illegally thus wouldn't be affected by any policy/sentiment being discussed. Many people do things the right way, some waiting years, the issue is with those who do not. Do you like it when people cut in front of you/your family in line?

You fucking xenophobic racist.

I'm sorry, I'm not Japanese. Germany is many things, diverse is not one of them. Why would that be? Europe in general is extremely bigoted and only now tasting things, still not to the degree Americans have, and there is conflict! Perhaps another 150 years of immigration will soothe the locals opinions, then again history shows that Europeans cannot play nicely with their neighbors without killing off generations. The only reason you haven't butchered yourselves this century and for most of the last is because of the US. The US has more diversity than Germany has population, quadruple your non-ethnic German population and then you can be #1, until then TAKE IN MORE PEOPLE!

Re:This works for me

[Jzanu]

Try again idiot. Nothing bold, nothing about illegal immigrants. You are a fucking idiot.

Re: This works for me

[smooth wombat]

No one trusts the mainstream media here and it's losing viewers left and right.

Agreed. No one trusts Fox because of their direct connections to the Republican party, lack of any opposing voices and putting out fake news.

The only people who keep saying they don't trust the "mainstream media" are the same people who ignored all the criminal assaults on women Trump has done, ignored his use of illegal foreign workers, his use of Chinese steel, his bankrupt casinos and numerous other businesses despite claiming he's a great businessman, not to mention having his name brand products made in China and Mexico while claiming he'll bring jobs to this country.

Anyone with a little bit of reading comprehension can see past the bullshit.

Except for the people I just mentioned who swallowed the con artist's bullshit hook, line and sinker. They believe he'll put up the internment camps for people of the Muslim faith (he's not), that he'll put Hillary Clinton in jail (he's not), that he'll get rid of Obamneycare on his first day in office (he's not), that he'll drain the swamp (he's filling it), that he'll do this or that, which he won't.

As Idiocracy showed us, people have gone down the rabbit hole of stupidity and Trump is the result.

Re:This works for me

[jafiwam]

(*) About 1/3rd of America, ditto Brexit voters and the coming Ixit voters.

I believe the proper term is Splitaly

Re:This works for me

[wyHunter]

Because the person who called you cattle is underwater on his mortgage, or paid 900,000 for a 1000 square foot apartment, or just HAS to HAVE every new gadget.

Re: This works for me

[Interfacer]

Cars always burn in France. When I was working for Alcatel Space in Cannes, I was talking with one of the French consultants (he helped set up the realtime Linux env, I was a developer building on top of their OS) and it was during the riots after a couple of young troublemakers hid from the police and got electrocuted in a high voltage cabin.

I mentioned the news footage about the care burning, and he said 'This is in Marseilles. There are always cars burning. An average weekend in Marseilles has 60 cars burning. Now it's 100. So what. Some troublemakers even torch their own cars when a news crew is in the neighborhood just to appear on the news'

Every country has its peculiarities.

Re:This works for me

[wyHunter]

I am not the poster, but I suspect that the poster was meaning this: Single wide mobile homes can be up to 1200 square foot in home space, and some of them are better build than stick houses. They are also quite reasonable in price, so what's not to like? A 1200 square foot house for 65-80K? What's not to like if it is well built? And YES I DO know what I am talking about because I live in such a single wide, with a floor plan that I designed, visited the factory where it was built and watched the quality control in action, and had it delivered and setup on my own property. Not everyone wants to live in San Francisco, LA or New York City.

Re:This works for me

[CaptainDork]

I mean loan sharks.

Re:This works for me

[wyHunter]

Why? The problem we have is one of energy, mostly. With more energy you can recycle more; grow more food; reclaim resources (sort of like recycling but sometimes it is entropy reduction, aka getting dissolved minerals out of sea water and such). With increasing understanding of how to harness energy, whether it be more solar power on earth, orbiting solar power stations, industry in orbit (these two are a long shot, I know), or even the ever elusive fusion power, you actually have the ability to have better lives for a LONG time. I'm over 50 and the amount of technical progress I've seen in my lifetime is staggering, and there's no reason to think it will slow anytime soon.

Re:This works for me

[theArtificial]

Slashdot stripped them out the strong tags. I linked you to the post you quoted. Let's try this, why do you think immigration policy will affect Elon Musk or Steve Job's parents?

Re:This works for me

[Jzanu]

You are imagining a word that does not occur in those 2 sentences and denying that it isn't there. Seek mental treatment.

Re:This works for me

[theArtificial]

What word would that be? I quoted your post, linked you to it and you've only quoted someone and done name calling, which usually means you've lost. Personally I was hoping for some more verbal abuse to cement our bond! Does immigration make you angry? I remember last time when Germany got angry...

Re:This works for me

[__aaclcg7560]

Why?

From a climate perspective, the 20th century was a very stable warm bubble without any of the little ice age spikes that struck previous three centuries (i.e., 1850, 1770 and 1650). From a population perspective, the population doubled TWICE in the 20th century but won't even double ONCE in the 21st century as an aging population dies off.

I'm over 50 and the amount of technical progress I've seen in my lifetime is staggering, and there's no reason to think it will slow anytime soon.

The American people elected someone who thinks climate change is a hoax by the Chinese and plans to eliminate NASA's climate science budget. If ignorance becomes the rule and not the exception, the future won't be very bright.

Re:This works for me

[theArtificial]

Please use more adjectives, I'm not understanding your point. Are you an illegal or something?

Re: This works for me

[interkin3tic]

The dumbing down of the snowflake, "lets protest everything" generation makes it easier for them to push that

Which generation is that? There are very few people protesting anything. The millennial generation I'm assuming you're talking about mainly protests with clicks on facebook. Gen-Xers seem generally too busy worrying about having massive debt to ever retire. Boomers conversely seem ready to riot if their taxes don't go down yearly AND if anyone does anything to reduce their government benefits, but I never see them actually take to the streets.

Seriously, who are you talking about? Black lives matter protests? Yeah, they're protesting being shot. That's hardly "protest everything."

Occupy whatever protests? That was, what, a few dozen people of the millennial and gen-x for a few weeks.

Dakota access pipeline? Again, small group protesting a very specific activity that would endanger the climate, hardly "everything."

You talk about sensationalist bullshit, but you seem to have swallowed some of it if you believe protests, rather than apathy, dominate any generation.

As far as "dumbing down" look up the flynn effect.

Re: This works for me

[fubarrr]

For me too:) moving to Shanghai on 26th.

Re: This works for me

[fubarrr]

i cant find an another anglophone country with cash. GB wouldve worked if i were to work for a bank, but I dont. That's why I choose China

Re: This works for me

[fubarrr]

>basically make brown people go bye-bye isn't it?

Ask the toap papa Jiang for that and his genocides in the north-west. It won him a chairmanship

Re: This works for me

[fubarrr]

Trump was born to a German spy. You'd better prepare

Re: This works for me

[fubarrr]

Come to Germany, they will make a fine German spy out of you

Re: This works for me

[dbIII]

Again, small group protesting a very specific activity that would endanger the climate

Lumping water quality in with climate is playing into the hands of the science deniers.

Re: This works for me

[dbIII]

Australia has a lot of people in politics pushing a very strong anti-migrant line to the point of outright xenophobia in some cases. It was chosen as a point of difference between two parties so the current ruling party has the ridiculous, expensive and cruel policy of keeping refugees locked up in camps indefinitely. It was a quickly done back of the envelope policy and they have no idea what to do next with a few thousand people, any change would be admitting that they were wrong. The anti-refugee thing has spilled over into migration in general.

There is so much hate being stirred up by people in politics an radio shock jocks that Australia is not a good place to migrate to at this point especially if you get a reasonable job. You will be accused of taking the jobs away from the locals even if it's a technical position that is hard to fill, or even if you start your own business. It really sucks at the moment and I don't think it's been this bad for decades (not so many decades back being Jewish was a reason for visas to be refused as an example).

Re: This works for me

[dbIII]

Democrats are not typically what the world would refer to as "left".

Re: This works for me

[Rei]

How can you Godwin yourself in a discussion of Hitler?

Re: This works for me

[Rei]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/moscow-had-contacts-with-trump-team-during-campaign-russian-diplomat-says/2016/11/10/28fb82fa-a73d-11e6-9bd6-184ab22d218e_story.html?tid=sm_tw

Russian government officials had contacts with members of Donald Trump’s campaign team, a senior Russian diplomat said Thursday, in a report that could reopen scrutiny over the Kremlin’s role in the president-elect’s bitter race against Hillary Clinton. ...

"Obviously, we know most of the people from his entourage,” Rybakov said. “ I cannot say that all of them but quite a few have been staying in touch with Russian representatives.”

I'll repeat for emphasis: staying in touch with most of his entourage during the campaign. And what did they have to talk about?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/09/putin-applauds-trump-win-and-hails-new-era-of-positive-ties-with-us?CMP=share_btn_tw

Markov also said it would mean less American backing for “the terroristic junta in Ukraine”. He denied allegations of Russian interference in the election, but said “maybe we helped a bit with WikiLeaks.”

The Obama administration accused Russian authorities of hacking Democratic party emails that were leaked to WikiLeaks. Putin has previously dismissed as “nonsense” claims of Russian interference.

Whether or not you choose to believe that Putin and his party are responsible for his win, they think that they are.

As for the other stuff, I'm not sure what you're questioning - that's just history; pick up a history textbook.

Re: This works for me

[aristotheron]

This is some pizzagate-style reasoning. Not even joking.

This is basically projecting two headlines that almost everyone has seen to form some picture that you're calling the truth

Who started saying Russia was responsible for the outcome of the election, the liberals or the Russians? The liberals of course. The Russians were just like "yeah, sure it could have been us...ahem, yes, indeed....but of course it was us! It was definitely us."

Re: This works for me

[aristotheron]

"That's just history"

Define history.

That's an interpretation of history.

Are you some kind of factilian? A librarian crossed with a reptile?

Here among the humans we tend to favor discourse supported with reasoning.

Re: This works for me

[Anonymous Coward]

> ignored all the criminal assaults on women Trump has done

Perhaps if they wanted to be taken seriously, they wouldn't all have shown up just in time to accuse him of stuff RIGHT before the election. Such timing. Wow.

Re: This works for me

[cyber-vandal]

Or it could be that they've had 40 years of politicians wrecking their communities through bad trade deals and corporate shilling, they've had the nominal party of the left spend more time on identity politics than helping their core voters through a time of very destructive change and they've had legal and illegal immigration used by employers to drive down wages. Finally someone's come along and actually talked about those issues and said that they'll do something about it and they flocked to him.

Call people morons if it makes you feel better but all Clinton had to offer was four more years of exactly the same Wall St misrule and the way the DNC basically crowned her stuck in a lot of throats. Had Sanders been the candidate, who know what could have happened.

Re: This works for me

[olau]

Nobody in Germany in the 20s would have ever guessed that the 30s would see them in a Nazi dictatorship.

Not an expert in German history, but it's my understanding that the democratic traditions in Germany were still young in the Weimar Republic, so while they might not have expected to the Nazis to take over, I think this statement is perhaps somewhat speculative? Do you have some sources you can quote? Young democracies seem fragile.

Re:This works for me

[TechyImmigrant]

I don't dispute that there are nice mobile homes. I was just saying I never saw them in Europe. They seem to be a US thing.

Re:This works for me

[cfalcon]

As long as it's not "Italeave". I seriously can't deal with seeing that on headlines.

Re: This works for me

[cfalcon]

> How can you Godwin yourself in a discussion of Hitler?

It's SUPER easy, as it turns out...

Re: This works for me

[cfalcon]

> There's a lot of rif raf on both sides to muddy up the averages. But most smart people are Democrats, and most racists Republican.

Wait, so your argument is that the Republicans have some handful of IQ 400 superbrains to balance out all their dummies?

There's no meaningful difference between a Democrat and a Republican on IQ scales and on a great number of measurements. Even most blue states have a lot of red, and most red states have a lot of blue.

> That's not in dispute anywhere.

More like, that's not sourced anywhere.

Re: This works for me

[david_thornley]

Unless Republican electors think they can get a majority of the EC for Kasich, it doesn't matter. If Trump doesn't get a majority, the top three vote-getters go to the House. In this scenario, one will be Trump, one will be Clinton, and one will be another Republican (Kasich has the advantage of being reasonably honest) who will probably become President. What the Democrat electors do matters not at all, unless Clinton manages to get a majority somehow.

Re: This works for me

[david_thornley]

If we're talking about the parallels between Trump and Hitler, there's more than I care for. Both are minority-bashing, have no government experience, are used to doing what they want, and their supporters support them for fundamentally irrational and likely nihilistic reasons. Frankly, I'm more worried about the Trump supporters than about Trump, because they'll still be there when Trump's gone.

Re: This works for me

[aristotheron]

What about the parallels between Hitler and ANY GIVEN LEADER?
Have you ever once tried that on for size?

But anyway the criteria you're looking at is sensationalized falsehood. "Blacks are lazy, mexicans are criminals" is minority bashing. Nothing like that has been said. You need to re-calibrate your common sense and stop being so desperate to read between the lines. Public speech is easily taken at face value because it has to be understood by everyone. There aren't any dogwhistles thrown in there, generally speaking.

Blame the system for nihilism. If you have to choose between no hope and slim hope of course you choose slim hope. It's not that people are crazy. There really is no hope for change on the sore issues inspired by some one like Hillary. Of course Trump won't likely bring much, it seems the upset he brought presents some opportunity for others to change things.

Stop being so fucking stupid. Who the president is doesn't matter. Identifying people by who they vote for is not valid.

Re: This works for me

[david_thornley]

I'm reasonably familiar with how Hitler came to power, and it's not how most leaders came to power.

I'm not interested so much in what Trump said as what his supporters heard. I doubt that most Trump supporters can reliably spell "exegesis", let alone practice it on Trump's speeches. (To be fair, I doubt most X supporters can spell "exegesis".) What I heard floating around the media is probably close to what they heard.

What to blame nihilism on doesn't really matter, except if it gives us insight in how to help people get beyond it. It's just plain bad, and is primarily what I'm concerned about.

The President is perfectly capable of ruining our diplomacy and biasing our law enforcement. The President nominates Supreme Court justices. Who the President is matters.

Re:This works for me

[wyHunter]

I have in the UK but not on the continent.

Re:This works for me

[wyHunter]

The USA has ALWAYS been an anti-intellectual country, so this isn't new. I find it incredible that we're as advanced as we are. When it comes to global warming, the issues that those of us who believe in freedom have is that the 'solution' is always 'pay more taxes' rather than try and do anything technical about it.

Re:This works for me

[Coren22]

School, where we learn the difference between legal and illegal? Trump has 0 issue with legal immigration, where we get 2 million people entering the country every year. He spoke out against illegal immigration, which is people coming into the country illegally, or legally entering and overstaying a visa, or entering on a tourist visa, then staying and working. None of these things are even comparable to legal immigration, which Steve Jobs' grand parents went though. I can't find anywhere an indication of Elon or his parent's immigration status, but I am sure you have numerous citations to back up your stance that Jobs and Musk's parents were illegal immigrants as you claim.

Re: This works for me

[Coren22]

The summary that is about people worried about Trump that are being courted by China, and has nothing to do with Trump's immigration policies which the AC lied about above and you quoted here:

https://news.slashdot.org/comm...

?

I am not sure how this is any way relivent to people calling you out for being dumb and conflating Trump's stance on illegal immigration with his non existant stance on legal immigration.

Fake news?

[CajunArson]

Can we contact Obama to have him punish Slashdot for posting more fake news?

Meanwhile, to burst your propaganda bubble about China is so welcoming and "tolerant" of immigrants, try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re: Fake news?

[Anonymous Coward]

Socialism != Liberalism. Nice try at conflation, though.

Re:Fake news?

[mwvdlee]

You perfectly demonstrate the problem with trying to interpret the entire political spectrum as a single dimension.

Re:Fake news?

[butchersong]

Wait, would you then classify the former soviet union as right wing as well then? What is the point in even having words for these things if we are just going to move anything we feel is "bad" over to the column we've decided we don't agree with?

Re:Fake news?

[Maritz]

It's clear that you don't often argue against real views or real people. Have fun with your carefully maintained ignorance.

Re:Fake news?

[CajunArson]

China us left-wing!!! Only a deluded white-supremaist KKK member would think that. China is more in line with the current Republican party line of thinking.

Fascinating. I guess since Obama can't say enough good things about China then Obama must be a deluded white-supremaist KKK member. Either that or Obama is actually a Republican... yeah that's it.

Re:Fake news?

[AmiMoJo]

China is strongly right wing. Children are expected to look after their parents in old age, for example, rather than the state providing as it would in a left wing socialist country. China is also big on defining and enforcing morality, much like the right in the US, just sometimes in the opposite direction (e.g. forced abortions rather than forced births).

In fact it's kinda odd that Trump doesn't admire them more. They control their media, make sure it only prints the "truth". Trump seems to support that. They have lots of protectionism to keep their workers employed in factories, something else Trump is rather fond of. And they definitely have a "China first" policy.

Re: Fake news?

[jedidiah]

That might have been true before the rise of Bernie Sanders. Now, not so much. Even the more "moderate" liberals want to nationalize medicine.

Re:Fake news?

[ITRambo]

China is now a one party capitalistic country run by engineers, not lawyers. They don't have free healthcare. People need to work to make a living. It's like a condensed version of the US, without freedom of speech. One thing it's not any more is a truly communist country. Their one party just happens to still call themselves the communist party. Within that one party are different viewpoints that are discussed. It's not your father's China anymore.

Re:Fake news?

[Viol8]

Sure, because left wing apologists for totalitarian regimes are just a straw man invented by the Evil Right as an excuse to criticise those caring sharing people on the left who only want whats best for their fellow man.

Meanwhile, back in the real world...

Re:Fake news?

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing it's not any more is a truly communist country. Their one party just happens to still call themselves the communist party.

Communism is many things and has been warped but the basic idea is to create a classless society with no money or concept of state and no private ownership of property. Such a thing is impossible from the get go so the state exists to bring people to this idea after which the state should cease to exist.

Yeah, that's where they done fucked up, assuming people in power would give it up willingly for the sake of the people. Ha. Hahaha. Hahahaha. Anyway, China does do the one tenant of communism that's really the only thing that can be implemented: no private ownership and the means of production owned entirely by the state. All land in China is leased. You don't own any of it, nor do any businesses. This is why the country runs on bribes: to keep one's property, which the state can come in and repurpose for any reason it so desires, one needs to keep the relevant officials happy. That means paying them not to think about your property.

In this sense, China is communist because there's no privately owned utilities or factories. Many of the mega corporations are wholly or partially state owned.

Re:Fake news?

[Jzanu]

You mean when someone shows that your premise is not only wrong but completely wrong? The dividing US political dichotomy is ridiculous because both parties are right-wing.

Re:Fake news?

[thinkwaitfast]

Is that why they're doing so well?

Re:Fake news?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, don't bother countering any of his points, which are correct. Just shout "wrong". Keep it up and you could even be president.

Re:Fake news?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obama's the one I hear ominously talking about fake news, not Trump.

You're right. Trump: "Forget the press — read the internet, study other things" Trump is all about embracing fake news. He just doesn't call it fake news.

I think the US needs more protectionism against China to return to a more fair state.

Except that the major reason the US is exporting jobs isn't because other countries aren't "fair". It's that the US's standard of living is much higher than most other countries and hence the costs are much higher. Even if other countries adopted and enforced all the same labor practices, environmental standards, etc and enforced them, it'd still be quite a time before their standard of living and hence cost of living would increase to the point that most other countries wouldn't have a trade advantage for durable goods.

China is just singled out as an example because it has a massive population and massive resources. India has a massive population but a lot of its resources were already taken by the British. Meanwhile, Russia is unable to capitalize on its massive resources and instead seems too focused on an energy economy, which I can only see backfiring as renewables are heavily the future--ie, Russia looks like it'll be screwed by oil again.

There are plenty of Asian countries who would love to export more to the USA. I voted for Trump partially on that issue.

Which changes nothing, fundamentally, except accelerating China's push towards a strong middle class and a further move away from lending money to the US. I don't see Trump pushing austerity in the US, though. Especially the higher taxes. So, a move towards demands of even cheaper, lower quality goods and a further drive to export jobs--as it's the only way to make the goods cheap enough for the people who still have jobs.

Synergy.

Re:Fake news?

[Jzanu]

Lenin was not an American politician. Just one that Trump now admires. Try again idiot.

Re:Fake news?

[guises]

Getting a little pedantic here: it doesn't really make much sense to assign the terms "right wing" or "left wing" to a government. Those terms are meant to express how a person or action or ideal relate to an existing government. Left is anti-establishment, Right is pro-establishment. Communism is put on the left because it was designed as a revolutionary concept - part and parcel of communism is the overthrow of existing structures of property and the power structures which go along with them. Likewise Fascism is on the right because it is all about supporting the state.

A communist government though, or a fascist government, is the thing that you relate to. It neither supports nor rebels against itself.

Re:Fake news?

[roman_mir]

Children are expected to look after their parents in old age, for example, rather than the state providing as it would in a left wing socialist country

- so the Chinese are *more efficient at looking after the elderly* by not inserting a bureaucracy into the process where none is needed. People save as much as 50% of their income in China, they don't need children to look after them, how much do Americans save?

America - the land of pretend 'capitalism', where nobody has any capital savings.

China - the land of pretend 'communism', where people actually own capital and invest and retire once they worked enough.

Re:Fake news?

[Kohath]

No one is shouting anything. I just don't care to debate someone trying to redefine already poorly-defined, loose categorizations. I'm just happy now that absolutely anything can be described as "strongly right wing".

Perhaps we can all stop taking that nonsense seriously and talk about ideas rather than which box those ideas belong in -- they're all "strongly right wing" and "left wing" and probably also "moderate".

Re:Fake news?

[epyT-R]

You mean when someone shows that your premise is not only wrong but completely wrong? The dividing European political dichotomy(ies) is ridiculous because all the parties are left-wing, differing only in degree. In other words, it depends on perspective. Then there's the issue of what defines right and left being somewhat different in both places.

Accusing Americans of amerocentrism while judging them from eurocentric perspectives and biases is wildly hypocritical to say the least.

Re:Fake news?

[Jzanu]

This was a comparison of China on world scale comparing the reality of an extremely conservative and traditionalist culture with technocratic government with the label of communist due to historical legacy. Differing sides, then claims, but the error was clearly on the one assuming US attributes apply remotely to Chinese politics.

Re:Fake news?

[aristotheron]

China is not on our political spectrum. It doesn't make sense to call it right wing. The few examples you point out are not a compelling link between the lifestyles of the right in the west and the chinese lifestyle.

Why should you be modded up for spewing rumors phrased in subjective terms? Why do I always see you modded up as far as possible for uninteresting comments? Why do I always see the same people modded up as far as possible for uninteresting comments? Moderation is broken and/or corrupt.

Re:Fake news?

[Jzanu]

I'm sorry you feel like a woman should throw themselves onto your cock, but you don't fucking deserve it so no pussy for you. You aren't entitled to sex or affection or even attention faggot. Grow the fuck up.

Re:Fake news?

[lgw]

"One thing it's not any more is a truly communist country."

Really, you're going to use the 'no true Scotsman" fallacy?

To be fair, the majority of the Chinese economy is now owned by private individuals, not the state. So, in that sense, it's a capitalist economy with a strong communist presence, as opposed to a communist economy.

It's still totalitarian, though, which is enough of a problem.

Re: Fake news?

[roman_mir]

I get that you are fully invested into this absolute rubbish nonsensical bullshit government main stream garbage propaganda but try to think once in your life by yourself.

There are no problems with the Chinese economy due to savings, that is garbage. Any asset bubbles are purely pricing issues formed due to government creating inflation (printing money) to buy bad USA debt (USD, bonds) from the Chinese based exporters. The economy in China is netter than ever, producing enough to feed, cloth the world.

China is a productive economy, as in it produces what people everywhere want. USA economy is based on insane unpayable debt and lack of production. I know what I prefer for an economy and it is not the one in debt that cannot produce to satisfy demand.

Re:Fake news?

[wyHunter]

You dont think the Democrats are left wing do you? Really?

Re: Fake news?

[roman_mir]

Ha, funny that you think that having bad credit is OK for somebody with no production capacity. Good luck feeding yourself once nobody takes your money in exchange for their goods anymore. You think you can restart your productivity without any capital savings and without a credit line? Sure, maybe, but it will take extraordinary sacrifice and possibly a deadly war and if your productivity is negative (USA productivity is negative given over twenty years of half a trillion dollars a year trade deficits) then you are not exactly in a position to wage a prolonged war against a productive adversary either.

Re:Fake news?

[AmiMoJo]

They are left wing by US standards, but by the rest of the world's standards they are only centre-right.

Re:Fake news?

[yathaid]

Right Wing != Freedom. The right wing orgasms at the thought of a dictator president as long as it is by their rules which are usually from a fictional version of the story of a guy that took place over 2000 years ago and in most places not to be interpreted literally.

Re: Fake news?

[fubarrr]

>China is not on our political spectrum.

As well as what Bolshevism was

Re:Fake news?

[epine]

Those terms are meant to

I'm not feeling generous today, so I won't write a correspondingly pedantic essay about the meaning of words is never so cut and dried, not even when socially ratified by unnamed parties.

I've always thought the guy in the bright-orange vest with the LED-powered traffic control baton who originally assigned these things to the left and right was a bit of an idiot with a small mind.

But it appears he did have an algorithm after all, however naive. Thanks for boiling that down so succinctly.

Re: Fake news?

[slew]

It's a nice little fiction that Canada is single payer, but the reality is quite a bit more complicated.

Although it is technically illegal for private health clinics to charge for services that are covered by the Canada Health Act, they often do indirectly and that is rarely enforced. Although it isn't too common yet, people sometimes go to employer or union sponsored clinics which were set up to avoid queuing at traditional clinics. Also, you or your employer can purchase private health insurance to cover the fees charged by these private clinics which means of course a secondary insurance market exists as well. It isn't a big thing yet throughout Canada, but a two-tier system is looming there...

That's not to say the Canadian two-tier system isn't light-years more efficient than the two-tier system in the US (which is basically private insurance or medicaid/emergency-room-care).

Re:Fake news?

[dbIII]

Meanwhile, back in the real world a left winger, George Orwell, wrote the longest lasting criticism of Stalinist states in the forms of the novels "1984" and "Animal Farm".

Re:Fake news?

[david_thornley]

Back when I was a kid, we mostly had right-wing apologists for totalitarian regimes, and the US was eager to overthrow any democracy that might conceivably get friendly with Communists.

Re:Fake news?

[guises]

Royalists sat on the right, those who supported the king. Revolutionaries sat on the left. The king is the establishment in this situation.

There was a lot of overlap between the right and conservatism of course, but not everyone who supported the king was conservative.

Re:Fake news?

[wyHunter]

If you define 'left' as 'statist' and 'right' as 'individual rights and freedoms' both the Democrat and Republican parties are EXTREMELY left wing.

Re: Fake news?

[j-beda]

It's a nice little fiction that Canada is single payer, but the reality is quite a bit more complicated.

Although it is technically illegal for private health clinics to charge for services that are covered by the Canada Health Act, they often do indirectly and that is rarely enforced. Although it isn't too common yet, people sometimes go to employer or union sponsored clinics which were set up to avoid queuing at traditional clinics. Also, you or your employer can purchase private health insurance to cover the fees charged by these private clinics which means of course a secondary insurance market exists as well. It isn't a big thing yet throughout Canada, but a two-tier system is looming there...

That's not to say the Canadian two-tier system isn't light-years more efficient than the two-tier system in the US (which is basically private insurance or medicaid/emergency-room-care).

I can't find any references to the number of such "private health clinics" that charge for Health Act covered services. Nobody I know of has ever used such a thing, though I suppose it is possible. I know of none in the regions I have lived.

Oh, here is a bit more - http://www.canadianliving.com/... - it looks like Ontario has none, BC and Alberta have around 60 each and Quebec has around 200 - http://www.findprivateclinics.... Certainly there is always the option for those who can afford it of leaving the country. In any case, it doesn't look like the system is yet at in the "looming" stage.

Faustian bargain

[Empiric]

Totalitarianism unsurprisingly remains pro-cog.

Bad is better than Worst

[gsslay]

Not that I want to be defending the buffoon Trump or racist Bannon, I would hope that anyone prepared to live under Chinese one-party censorship can handle most of what Trump's America might throw at them.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[e432776]

this. out of frying pan, into fire. All seems pretty silly.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[TheRaven64]

Depends. China is, apparently, a pretty nice place to live if you're relatively wealthy and are on the good side of the Party establishment. Trumps America will probably be quite similar. Going from one such country where you're on the wrong side of the people in power to one where you're on their right side is probably an improvement.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[AmiMoJo]

It depends where in China and what you are doing. For foreigners the censorship is almost non-existent because it mostly only applies to phrases in Chinese, not other languages. Corruption is more of a worry if starting a business there, but the same goes for the US where cops can steal your cash and the president is a known scammer. Personally I wouldn't want to move to either country.

I've noticed that a lot of EU states are trying to attract people from the UK lately too. Generous relocation packages, good salaries, and the promise of retaining your EU rights and citizenship. For me it's very attractive because it's much easier for my Chinese girlfriend to get a visa for many EU and EEA countries than it is for the UK.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[CajunArson]

Do you have any evidence that this Bannon person is a racist?

For example I have incontrovertible proof that, Keith Ellison, who is a front runner to run the Democratic National Committee, is an anti-semitic bigot.

You can listen to an analysis of him right here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[jedidiah]

> but the same goes for the US where cops can steal your cash

This is a largely irrelevant problem for most businesses as few deal in large amounts of cash. Just the idea of transporting cash as a non-criminal gives me pause. Never mind pause, I view it as absurd from a basic security perspective.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[oji-sama]

It depends where in China and what you are doing. For foreigners the censorship is almost non-existent because it mostly only applies to phrases in Chinese, not other languages.

The firewall is somewhere between annoying (on a good day) to downright nasty for foreigners as well.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[Ryanrule]

Yes we do. Much more than some Neo nazi YouTube video

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[Mr. Droopy Drawers]

Links, please.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[Anonymous Coward]

Fine, he was the Director of a "news organization", proclaiming the site to be a home for the "alt-right", but didn't prevent stories being run that embraced racist and sexist viewpoints. You can't always control who your fans are, but if he courted them and isn't a himself racist, that's not much better.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have any evidence that this Bannon person is a racist?

For example I have incontrovertible proof that, Keith Ellison, who is a front runner to run the Democratic National Committee, is an anti-semitic bigot.

You can listen to an analysis of him right here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

One, look at the editorial direction he took Breitbart. Two, read, for example, http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/27/us/politics/steve-bannon-white-house.html He mused about restricting the right to vote to property owners, and that it would be maybe 'not such a bad thing' if that excluded a lot of African-Americans.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[aristotheron]

anti-semitic
bigot

those are not valid descriptions of a person. It's purely reductive. You get upset about something some one says that you don't agree with and instead of engaging in discourse to support your point of view you appeal to the mob to spread your anger. It's savagery. You ignore any potential for reconciliation. What exactly about this guy is so threatening to anything that has to do with you?

Can you even define what an anti-semite or bigot is and explain how and why that is relevant?
You seem to be assuming that because some one has a contrary agenda they intend to bring genocide to everyone they disagree with. Maybe they aren't like you in that they can comprehend and work with opposing points of view.

stop being suckered into a simplistic state of mind

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[aristotheron]

So because you have no ability to articulate your point of view you direct the people you are supposedly trying to engage in discourse with to some kind of program that persuaded you to your present view? We need to live the same experience as you do to know the truth? You are living the one true way?
Where is the rationale? Where is the critical thought?
Do you not see how it seems that you are just being brainwashed by this program? What else are we supposed to think when you have nothing to say and encourage people to engage in a program?

The only way to prove that you are not brainwashed and are worth listening to is to provide a grounded explanation. Assume people don't already agree with you and your ways. Describe the framework of you point of view.

I guess that's hard to do when you are totally and completely self ignorant.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[Ryanrule]

go read what he has written. hes got a whole damn site.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[AnonymousCube]

Why would anybody mod this up? It's nothing but a "NO U", and if you even watched 30 seconds of the video you'd see it's a black guy...

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[AmiMoJo]

breitbart.com

Just look at how the headlines changed after he took over.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[yathaid]

Do you have any evidence that this Bannon person is a racist?

From the effing summary:

"When two-thirds or three-quarters of the CEOs in Silicon Valley are from South Asia or from Asia, I think ...," Bannon said, trailing off. "A country is more than an economy. We're a civic society."

What does where you are from having anything to do with anything here?

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[TheSync]

The firewall is somewhere between annoying (on a good day) to downright nasty for foreigners as well.

Everyone I know who does business on the mainland (including Hong Kongers) uses a VPN.

Re:Bad is better than Worst

[oji-sama]

Everyone I know who does business on the mainland (including Hong Kongers) uses a VPN.

People I've discussed with have had problems at home, such as VPN connections getting blocked, at workplaces things usually did work. When I visited, a couple of years ago admittedly, the VPN to my workplace I was using at a local residence worked for one day, then stopped working, and the same happened to my secondary VPN as well, in half a day.

And is Steve wrong?

[FlyHelicopters]

"A country is more than an economy. We're a civic society."

What about that statement is wrong? From a simple economic point of view, if you have no monetary value, then go die in a ditch like a good citizen.

Except, that we ARE more than an economy, humans are more valuable than just what they provide to the GDP of a nation.

I don't see China leaping over themselves to allow Americans to fully own businesses there, yet we let them do it here. Either China needs to open up, or we need to shut them out, either solution is fine.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[gsslay]

Well, if you want to remove the statement entirely from its context; yes it's not wrong. Put it back in its context, and you have a meanly mouthed expression with a subtext of racism and xenophobia.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[AmiMoJo]

He's not wrong, it's just the implications that 66-75% of CEOs are Asian/South Asian, and that if that were true it would be some kind of problem for "civic society" (I think he means "civil society", but either way...)

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[110010001000]

You don't know what "civic society" means, so don't comment. His statement is correct - he didn't mean "civil". There is more to a country than the economy, we should strive to be a civic society. If you look up what "civic" means you will understand what he means.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[AmiMoJo]

I understand what he means perfectly well. You need to explain how is incorrect statement that up to 75% of CEOs are from Asia/South Asia would be a problem for a "civic society", if true.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[Jodka]

"A country is more than an economy. We're a civic society."

True, the "health" of the economy is an imperfect proxy for aggregate material wealth. While positively related to the social well-being of a society, there are additional determining factors, both spiritual and social.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[DarthVain]

Hey a valid point in this thread, what are you trying to pull here!

Not sure of the exact details, but I've heard that *all* businesses operating in China *must* be at least 50% Chinese owned. So if that is true, not exact a level playing field anyway. Tipping the balance back a bit isn't all that surprising. Though some right-wing econo-capitalist invisible-market ideology would probably argue against it as regulation that would stagnate growth...

That said, I am not sure in the US, but I know at least in Canada there *are* certain industries/markets that do require some % level of Canadian ownership as a form of protectionism against outside competition. The requirement or the level changes occasionally per industry and political cycle but it does exist. Telecommunications is one such example I believe.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[aristotheron]

racism
xenophobia

can you define these words in their context in our way of life or are they just things you like to say for some reason?

step back from that ledge, there is peace and understanding when you let go of your preconceptions. It's like you think if you stop stressing yourself to constantly repeat "your point of view" you will cease to exist. Trust me, if you spent more quiet time, nothing will change except your ability to understand more.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[penandpaper]

Are those CEOs outsourcing citizen talent for foreign talent? Undermines civic society.
Are those CEOs taking advantage of H1B policies at the expense of citizens? Undermines civic society.
Are those CEOs using their citizen workforce to train their foreign replacements? Undermines civic society.
Are those CEOs lobbying for more of this advantage at the expense of citizens? Undermines civic society.

Should I go on? Whether he is correct in that '75% of CEOs from Asia/South Asia' is a matter of looking at their policies and seeing if they are not good for citizens. Has that been done? Is he in a position an informed statement? I don't know. Why don't you question the validity of the claim instead of misinterpreting what he says to fit your bias.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[AmiMoJo]

Okay, but what does any of that have to do with them being from Asia? Seems like all the non-Asian CEOs are doing the same thing.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[penandpaper]

I don't know, honestly. That is something that I would like to know. Why these CEOs? Is there a trend of 'uncivic' behavior from Asian CEOs compared to other nationalities or races or CEOs in general? Is there any evidence to support that claim? I would rather see if the statement is true or not then have an emotional reaction from misrepresenting statements that are unfounded in reality.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[AmiMoJo]

Well, that kind of language, vast exaggeration/overestimation of the proportion of foreigners, and his lack of further explanation when racism was suggested... It could be a misunderstanding, but given his previous record it seems incredibly unlikely.

At the very least he's just an idiot who doesn't know what he is taking about, but I think that's being too generous.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[yathaid]

What about that statement is wrong?

I don't see China leaping over themselves to allow Americans to fully own businesses there, yet we let them do it here.

It is very hard for anyone on an immigrant visa to start a business. Almost every one of the tech CEOs he rails against is an American citizen. He cannot stomach the fact that they aren't, to put it bluntly, white.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[yathaid]

Please enlighten me. What does "civic society" here mean? And why does it exclude Asian tech CEOs even if they are American citizens?

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[penandpaper]

Or he was in a 3 way interview and messed up what he was trying to say and fumbled around the ideas in his head and didn't have time to expand.

If he is in a position to see that trend and can comment on it, if it is true I don't care how it seems. I want to know if it is true or not. If it's not true, lambaste away.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[AmiMoJo]

We have this things called Twitter now, and press releases if you are old school. Very useful when people think you said something extremely racist and bigoted, but you need to clarify that your meaning was something else.

The guy was trying to do a Farage. Say something that heavily implies a racist point of view, but stops just short of explicitly stating it. He went slightly too far.

Re:And is Steve wrong?

[penandpaper]

Call wolf enough times people start ignoring you and wolf warnings even if they are true. Are you really surprised by this?

Still, if you want to get anywhere, prove him wrong.

Competitive Advantage

[lazarus]

If you train them in your country, you should try to keep them in your country unless you think your educational institutions are no more than money makers. Otherwise you will eventually lose the competitive advantage that you have over other countries that do not invest as heavily in education. If you are concerned about immigration in this regard then you should change the caps you place on the number of foreign students you allow.

Also, China can chase all they want, but I doubt that there is going to be a mass exodus of top talent to a country with a stifling authoritarian system in place. Top talent really requires freedom -- I think history teaches us at least that much.

Re:Competitive Advantage

[AmiMoJo]

In the UK foreigner students subsidise UK students. They money they bring in keeps student debt lower than it otherwise would be, although it's still insane.

Pants-wetters wanted

[Kohath]

If you're wetting your pants every day because you believe made-up scary stories about future Trump Administration actions, China wants you. They have a special story they want to tell you, and they know that after you hear it, you'll do exactly what they want you to. You're the perfect recruit. Apply now.

Re:Pants-wetters wanted

[Kohath]

Are you saying Trump made up those stories? WTF?

A politician making up stories? Inconceivable!

Unintended consequences are trickey

[Anonymous Coward]

Proposed options:
If a company uses foreign workers to lower labor costs in the US, then there could be extra payroll taxes to equalize the cost to the company.
Another form of payroll taxes could be rebates to subsidize local labor. (Might allow lowering minimum wage to company?)
Then of course penalties for an illegal hiring practice.

Likely consequences:
This would tend to nudge the companies and smart workers to pick another country to do business.
Some agriculture and building trades in the US would have a labor shortage.
Which is either a US economic death spiral or world wide depression depending on if the move successful or disruptive.

So the interesting question is what balance of stick and carrot can someone expert in finding and making good, workable deals find?

No Innovation in China

[Anonymous Coward]

China will never innovate until there's a culture change. In China, decisions come from the top. Those below do what they are told and do not challenge authority. They don't contribute original idea and make open suggestions; that's not their job. This has been engrained in Chinese culture for centuries and ultimately why the CCP is able to rule with the (softish) iron fist they do. To think getting all this talent from the American system is going to change that...nope. You can have all the smart people you want but if you don't let them do their own thing, it doesn't really matter. The CEOs and bosses in China are going to have to adapt to allow their new imports to be themselves....but they've been actively discouraging this for years and it's not going to change all of a sudden. As long as the boss is getting the graft and making money, that's what matters.

The people who came to America left China for any of several dozen reasons. They're going to have to be thrown out before they go back, unless the Chinese government is going to hook them up with a sweet job. Working for a Chinese company? Yeah, no one's going to want to leave America to do that.

Re:No Innovation in China

[Tablizer]

China will never innovate until there's a culture change. In China, decisions come from the top. Those below do what they are told and do not challenge authority...This has been engrained in Chinese culture for centuries...

While true for large companies, entrepreneurship is alive and well there. If you don't like what the boss is doing, become your own boss.

They are arguably even more innovative because they are less burdened by the over-broad patent laws/judges we have. They are freer to mix and match technologies. Our patent system is killing us. It arguably made sense in Edison's day, but software is different.

Re:No Innovation in China

[snookiex]

That's exactly what ants do and it's very likely that they will stay on this world long after the thermonuclear war that will wipe us all. OK, I'm being dramatic, but I hope you get my point. Some societies simply like the way they are, and in many cases, that's not a bad thing. I don't think that by doing this, the Chinese want to be the next America.

Re:No Innovation in China

[HiThere]

It NEVER made sense. Not ever. In the early days it took inventors and coerced them into chasing around the country looking for people who might be infringing on their patents. As companies took over it became more and more about getting patents so vague that nobody could tell for sure what what infringing, and getting the legal decisions that meant that was a case that would be found in favor of the patent holder.

The basic idea was reasonable, but the implementation was flawed from the beginning, and my guess is that the grant of a monopoly was the basic flaw. Perhaps instead it should have been a law that the government would only buy from the holder, or a licensee, of the patent.

Re:No Innovation in China

[AHuxley]

Many in the mid/top in China are in the Communist Party or mil. With that comes a set of rules. That foreign travel and education, a good home, nice school, safe food, access to a lab, staff will come with a lot of rules.
A mid ranking mil uniform to work no matter the job, tasks or position. Surrounded by orders, uniforms, rank. No freedom, any comment gets reported, been denounced or reported on is an every day risk.
The freedom in the West for further education is to learn and bring back ides, tech, trends, insights or spy on Western campus dissident or faith groups.
Long term China can only buy into the West and hope the in house Western tech is advanced enough to get a few decades of advancement. Before needing to buy up the next Western brand.
A call back of people to China does not really help China. China is full of mil and party members who all know how to serve the system.
The West has its growing, failing, bankrupt churn of the very best ideas with freedom to fail, freedom to talk, freedom after a conversation, freedom to publish, freedom to find funds, freedom to seek the best teams, to work alone or on campus, or be part of a large company or have a huge campus, freedom to read any book or enjoy a movie. To find the very best graduate or PhD without needing political approval.
Thats is what makes the US so attractive to China. Ideas flow in the West without party political bans, exclusion, loss of education, loss of healthcare, only been given really bad accommodation, loss of Communist Party privileges.

Re:No Innovation in China

[thejynxed]

No, they very much do not want to be the next America. For a nation who views things in trends, and as all outside nations as tributaries to Beijing, America is about their polar opposite in many respects. China in all of its history has never had to deal with a nation on the scale and scope of the USA politically, financially, or militarily and this has led to some difficulties as they see themselves as the rising power to meet the great power that already is.

I have no problem with this...

[__aaclcg7560]

When I became a lead video game tester in 2001, I knew I was in a dead end job and I would change jobs in three years. I saw a study at that time that showed that skilled IT professionals would be in high demand as baby boomers retire en masse and Southeast Asian workers will return home en masse. So I went back to school to learn computer programming and got into the IT field. Since the Great Recession in 2008, quite a few baby boomers didn't get the memo that they needed to retire and/or drop dead. Thanks to Trump the Southeast Asian workers will be returning home. I'm looking forward to making more money for the next 30 years until I retire.

Re:I have no problem with this...

[mnmn]

I didn't know there were many southeast asian IT workers in the US.

Re:I have no problem with this...

[__aaclcg7560]

That's quite shortsighted.

The U.S. will over a million job openings for skilled IT workers in 2030 that can't be filled. Mostly because healthcare will pay significantly better and everyone with their grandmother will be fighting to take care of all those baby boomers.

Now rather than those people working with you as co-workers, they will work against you in state backed companies in their homeland.

That's not necessarily the case. They will probably go into industries that are underdeveloped than the U.S. and won't compete directly with U.S. workers.

Their talent didn't disappear, but instead of working to build US they are now working to compete against US...

Those workers will be building up their own country as a growing middle class demands more in products and services.

Kiss goodbye to the economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump is not only bankrupt, he's hiding how bad the hole is. And now he's in charge of the economy??? Kiss goodbye to the economy!

He borrowed $19 million at 5.71 percent last year. This is typical of the small money at high rates he's borrowing. If he had money anywhere in any of his companies, he'd lend it from that company so the Trump company can earn the 5.71%!

So he has no money. Even his house has an outstanding mortgage bigger than the price he paid for it.

But he also has no asset that isn't mortgaged to the hilt. If any company had any asset it could mortgage at a good rate (e.g. LIBOR+1.75%), then they'd do that and lend that money and keep the 2.31% difference as profit.

His main businesses make terrible profits, e.g. 40 Wallstreet in the latest account (revealed during a tax dispute) makes $3 million on a loan on $160 million. That's only 1.9%. Over the last 4 years its averaged a *loss*. This is supposed to be good asset, an asset he's borrowing against to keep the rest of Trump co afloat!

So 1) He has no money and 2) he has no assets that can be mortgaged.

And now he's supposed to run the US economy? So what will he do, lie about the numbers?? Blame China? The Media? Crooked Clinton?? Jews? Muslims? What?

China's Trump is named Xi

[Dr.Saeuerlich]

Are you afraid that your country might become an authoritarian police state? Here's the solution: move to a country that IS an authoritarian police state!

Pretty much everything people fear that Trump may do to the US is already reality in China, including no due process, no elections, censorship, heavy use of fossil fuels, assertive foreign policies, leader worship, nationalism and a Make China Great agenda. The only thing China has going is that there's no data caps - so maybe it's interesting if you're stuck with Comcast.

Re:China's Trump is named Xi

[hey!]

Well, I don't think anyone thinks many non-Chinese speaking Americans are going to move there. I think this is targeted at the top tier of immigrant talent, particularly people who may have come from China to the US for school and stayed. For them the equation is more complicated than the one you present, particularly if they feel unsafe, or even unwelcome in the US.

Just to put some perspective on this, as I write this there are 328,547 current graduate students in the US from China. Ten years ago nearly all of these people would have remained in the US -- and these are valuable people to have. Today far fewer do because it's become harder to get a green card, and opportunities.

Likewise there are 166K Indian graduate students in the US, many of whom China would like to lure away when they graduate. It would be better for us that they stay here, but China would very much like to obtain the services of these bright young people with shiny new graduate degrees from American universities.

I'm not talking about the cheap contract labor your IT consultant uses to run your Exchange server; I'm talking about the intellectual elites who create technologies, companies, and jobs. China may be a police state, but that doesn't make them stupid; they value these people. America... not so much. In fact there are places in this country where being an educated white American makes you the object of suspicion.

Re:China's Trump is named Xi

[thinkwaitfast]

This was my first thought.

Re:China's Trump is named Xi

[Tailhook]

I think this is targeted at the top tier of immigrant talent

If these "top tier" immigrants are unhappy with racist 'murica not compensating them with enough millions of income then they should head back, see if they can negotiate a "social credit score" that keeps them in the good graces of the party, and see if they're any happier with that. We'll be fine either way.

Re:China's Trump is named Xi

[hey!]

Sometimes I think that the worst thing that happened to America was the moon landing. Ever since then people have taken our technological leadership for granted, as if it were a natural and immutable state of affairs.

Re:China's Trump is named Xi

[TheSync]

China has 1,448 naturalised Chinese in total. Almost no foreigners are able to become citizens (source).

Even Japan, better known for hostility to immigration, naturalises around 10,000 new citizens each year; in America the figure is some 700,000.

If you aren't Han, you are in trouble in China.

Re: China's Trump is named Xi

[fubarrr]

>there's no data caps

Unfortunately, there are

Re:China's Trump is named Xi

[Anonymous Coward]

China has 1,448 naturalised Chinese in total. Almost no foreigners are able to become citizens

You can't get citizenship through marriage like you can in most countries. In fact, you can't even get any kind of permanent residence with marriage to a Chinese citizen. You need to be continually employed so your visa can be renewed each year. And here's a rub: you're not guaranteed a visa even if you're married to a Chinese citizen.

In the US, permanent residence is automatic upon marriage, assuming the marriage checks out as legitimate. That entitles the bearer to work, travel, and move as s/he sees fit. For all the talk about how racist and xenophobic the US is, China is the absolute worst. They don't want you. They just want your labor.

I suppose they figure that most marriages in China will be Chinese women to foreigners rather than Chinese men who marry foreigners (because most Chinese guys won't go for that, believing they're entitled to a "Chinese woman," even though there's 24M more men than women of marriable ages). They want to discourage the practice because....duh, women shortage! and want to make it as hard as possible on foreign men so they won't do it.

Of course, the other option is that he takes her back to his country where there's more benefits, nicer life, and China gets no tax dollars, but they don't seem to think of that.

Re:China's Trump is named Xi

[Abu of unruley kids]

Exactly, most of the talent is from immigrants and work visas. Without them, people would be saying, "Where is the United States again?" when looking at a globe or map.

Re:Why are all those CEO's asian or indian ??

[Austerity Empowers]

White people who understand tech know better than to become a CEO. These people must not have any other option, or just think it'd be cool to be the boss of something.

Oh China!

[NetNed]

"the influential entrepreneur said in a recent keynote speech at a state-sponsored conference"


"State-sponsored conference" says it all about what Li's speecg really is. It's propaganda sent out by the Chinese government in an attempt to attack whatever plans the incoming administration might have. Funny that the clip here on slash dot doesn't have the stipulation for getting the $1 million dollar bonus. It's open it Nobel Prize winners, which could make considerably more in the Valley through awards, grants, salary, etc. But hey, good luck in China if that's where you think you'd like to live.

demagogic nationalistic mercantilist nonsense

[Jodka]

While it's not an exact match, Trump and Bannon are best described as mercantalist. Mercantilism is an antiquated and discredited economic theory and practice largely abandoned in Europe after the 18th century.

Among the flaws in that system is that it trades visible gains for hidden losses. (Over at the National Review, Kevin D. Williamson cites Frédéric Bastiat on that point in a great analysis of Trump's Carrier deal). An interesting thing about China luring away talent is that it draws attention to that loss of talent, making it less hidden.

Re:demagogic nationalistic mercantilist nonsense

[Jzanu]

Fascinating, thanks for posting that article link.

Re:demagogic nationalistic mercantilist nonsense

[Jzanu]

The Williamson article at National Review; it frames things in a way that is clear and should demonstrate the obvious policy mistake even to Trump supporters. The cost of the advantage given to Carrier not only is anti-american, but it is anti-competitive and anti-capitalist hurting better competitors who still pay tax and manage their operations better.

Re:demagogic nationalistic mercantilist nonsense

[Orgasmatron]

I have some really bad news for you. A lot of Trump supporters have read Bastiat, can quote from several of his essays, and also do not consider themselves to be "conservatives" or "capitalists".

Also, we will fucking laugh in your face, because after everything we've been through recently, we find it hilarious that our opponents still think that we care about their disapproval.

P.S. Kevin D. Williamson, the author of that "article" should probably read more than just the title of Bastiat's works. Here is an essay that speaks directly to this line of reasoning. Oh, and both he and his editor should be ashamed of themselves. The first half of the article was incoherent gibberish that would have been dripping with red ink if I had handed it to even the laziest of my high school English teachers for proofing.

Re:demagogic nationalistic mercantilist nonsense

[Jzanu]

It is clear that you can't refute his acute identification of industrial bribery creating loss of American capability, and stealing from better managed firms as well as the tax payers in the US.

Re:demagogic nationalistic mercantilist nonsense

[Orgasmatron]

You are likely immune to arguments that oppose your dogma, so I mostly don't bother. Doesn't mean that I can't. When you are done reading the Bastiat that I linked before, ponder on Mr. Keen's writings:

http://www.debtdeflation.com/b...

Google "photos of detroit" if you want to see the real-world applications of Keen's ideas. Or replace "detroit" with any of dozens of rust-belt cities and towns. A widespread failure to comprehend this is what sealed Trump's victory.

If you don't understand the depth of your dogma, consider that what you call "industrial bribery" and "stealing" is merely the government taking slightly less than it said that it was going to. You should be fucking ashamed of yourself for perpetuating that moral inversion. But you aren't. You are smug, convinced that the latest fad in economics, what you call "free trade" without any comprehension of the irony, is the ultimate and final truth of the universe.

And if, a month ago, you imagined yourself to be a conservative who wanted government to get out of the meddling business, double shame on you.

Re:demagogic nationalistic mercantilist nonsense

[Jzanu]

God damn you fucking ignorant son of a bitch, try reading the god damn summary, the god damn article, and the god damn thread. Retard.

Re:demagogic nationalistic mercantilist nonsense

[Orgasmatron]

Wow, shocking. Four personal attacks and not one argument. If only something in the last 18 months or 18 years could have prepared me for this style of "debate".

Did I hit a nerve? Do you need a safe space?

It's not over: electors refuse to vote for Trump

[walterbyrd]

Why I Will Not Cast My Electoral Vote for Donald Trump
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/opinion/why-i-will-not-cast-my-electoral-vote-for-donald-trump.html

Florida GOP Elector: I Get 4,000 Harassing Emails from Hillary Supporters a Day
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/12/florida-gop-elector-get-4000-harassing-emails-hillary-supporters-day-video/

Rogue electors brief Clinton camp on anti-Trump plan
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/electoral-college-rogues-trump-clinton-232195

Report: 15 Electors Will Refuse to Vote For Trump
http://www.infowars.com/report-15-electors-will-refuse-to-vote-for-trump/

Faster US Decline Every Day with Trump

[Jzanu]

And so begins the brain-drain of the US - the core of its last comparative advantage was education, similarly discarded, and now the trained are leaving for better pastures. China is rising while the US is regressing economically, technologically, and soon even militarily. Trump will have a victory in making Russia stronger.

Re:Faster US Decline Every Day with Trump

[Major Blud]

And so begins the brain-drain of the US - the core of its last comparative advantage was education, similarly discarded, and now the trained are leaving for better pastures.

Assuming that you're here, are you planning to leave the U.S.? No? If not, ask yourself why. I'm sure the reasons you come up with are the same reasons everyone else that doesn't leave come up with as well.

Re:Faster US Decline Every Day with Trump

[Jzanu]

I'm German, so try again.

Re:Faster US Decline Every Day with Trump

[Major Blud]

Well in that case, you guys are next:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/...

Re:Faster US Decline Every Day with Trump

[Jzanu]

Not really. German state elections are conducted on entirely different basis from federal selections. Also, AfD is a Russian funded subterfuge and Germans are smarter than Americans at seeing that.

At least, China is a communist country

[bobeil]

and it does not have such low quality of living, as Cuba does. And it is not populated by white men. So, off they go...

Re:Fake News

[Rei]

The next Musk will not be an illegal immigrant

The next First Lady will be.

Exodus of Jewish Scientists?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shades of pre-war Germany.

Re:Exodus of Jewish Scientists?

[Jzanu]

Shades of pre-war Germany.

Someone is trying to hide your comment, but it deserves to be seen.

Re:Exodus of Jewish Scientists?

[colin_faber]

Talk about jumping the shark.

Confusing economy with politics [Re:Fake news?]

[Tablizer]

Remember, China is (nominally) left wing, so for the deluded liberal left, just as with the Cuban regime, it can do no wrong. Human rights violations, oppression of free speech, torture? So what, who cares.

You are confusing political system with economic system. The dichotomies of the 1950's are mostly dead. Capitalist economies can and do have authoritarian political systems, and socialistic economies can and do have a democratic political system.

As far as what kind of economy China has, it looks pretty mixed to me. They didn't become the manufacturing power-house they are using mere socialism.

Re:I have bad news for you.

[__aaclcg7560]

1. We're offshoring next year Q1.

Doesn't apply to me. I've never been offshored in the 20+ years of my technical career.

2. Our bitches in Congress won't allow Trump to do anything like throwing out H1-bs - it's a done deal already.

China and India will recall their workers back when it becomes obvious that America is a dangerous place under Trump.

3. Trump supporters are looking at Carrier and other manufacturing businesses that are automating and will can people anyway, meaning they'll never notice the "over paid" office workers getting it and nor do they care. Trump is a symptom of class warfare - ironically enough.

Crony capitalism. What else is new?

4. Sorry, Trump isn't the great Orange Hope you were hoping for.

I voted for Hillary. She had bigger balls.

Re:Trump is Retarded

[Tablizer]

Fucking up every part of the American economy, one step at a time.

Maybe some disruption is good. It's hard to see how yet, but I'm hoping his ad-hoc trial-and-error style will accidentally find new optimums, like a genetic algorithm.

I realize there's a good chance this view is wrong and that he turns out to be a bull in a china shop (pun half-intended), but I'll keep an open mind.

Trump is such an unusual specimen that we don't have enough precedents to say what will actually happen. Get some pop-corn, and enjoy the Great American Experiment. (Just don't forget the safety goggles.)

Whatever happens, it will make for a Yuuuuge entry in future history books. You can brag to your grand-children that you witnessed and (hopefully) survived this most notable period of history.

Re: tough choice

[Zero__Kelvin]

Trump remaps the decision landscape, as there is no reason to believe China will be the less repressive state in the future anymore.

Re: tough choice

[Zero__Kelvin]

S/China/The USA/

Re:It's not over: electors refuse to vote for Trum

[Anonymous Coward]

IF they can manage to get 37 electors currently allocated to Trump to abstain or vote for Hillary, then the decision will go to the House as neither candidate will have 270 votes. Do you really thing the republican house of representatives will elect Hillary over Trump?

Also, many electors are automatically dismissed and not counted should they not vote as they are required to so(various state laws), so even if you can get 40+ electors to change their votes, there is no reason to expect that Hillary can get the 38 she needs to win.

Of course this huge number that is being trumpeted, which is almost 3 times the number of the largest number of electors that ever went rogue in a single election(6), is still less than half of what would be needed to even pass the election to the Republican House.

In American History, Faithless Electors have never changed the outcome of a presidential election(they did pass it down to the House once, but the house just voted the way the electors were supposed to vote)

Trump VS Trump

[DarthVain]

"I'm looking forward to the Chinese equivalent of Donald Trump"

I'm pretty sure that is how the world ends...

A Brutal and Simple "fix" for this

[laurencetux]

Rig the Labor tax to a sliding scale: Labor Tax for a business = %base% X 1+(Percent of Non-Citizen workers+0.75of local unemployment rate(with DropOut workers added back in))

I would give a push and include NonTemp Green card holders as Citizens for this purpose.

Re:Fake News

[lgw]

The next Musk will not be an illegal immigrant

The next First Lady will be.

"An immigrant took my job!" - Michelle

"A white man forced me out of my house" - Barack

Re:Fake News

[ranton]

You, of course, fell for the fake news. But your side was saying it, so it's true. Trump has never been anti-immigration. He realize the difference between legal and illegal immigration.

Not caring what happens to millions of children of immigrants is anti-immigrant. Saying an American born Hispanic judge is not qualified to do his job is anti-immigrant. Fueling a populist narrative that immigrants are the cause of working class problems is anti-immigrant.

If you want to see the effect of politicians' rhetoric, instead of their strategically crafted phrases meant to hide their implications, just look at the politicians' voters. Trump is very proud that he was able to target voters better than Hillary, as evidenced by winning the electoral college but not the popular vote, so take a look at the voters he targeted. They carry his true message. And they create the atmosphere other nations see when they form their view of the US.

There was a time when some people, especially on the left, thought all of his success was just an accident. Or that he was simply taking advantage of a small segment of angry voters instead of helping create enough of them to win a general election. But that is certainly a stretch now. The anti-immigrant message he was sending both explicitly and implicitly was heard loud and clear. Both here and around the world.

Too bad my irony meter broke long ago

[quax]

"A country is more than an economy. We're a civic society."

Said the man most responsible for shredding the civil fabric of the country, and mainstreaming white nationalism and antisemitism.

Re:Civic society implies civil rights

[HiThere]

Well, depending on how much you believe the rhetoric, anyone who isn't a white male might feel safer in China. I'm hoping that almost all of it is just rhetoric, but I don't feel any certainty about it. In fact if you believe *some* of the rhetoric anyone who isn't a rich white male might feel safer in China. This strikes me as unlikely, but remembering how a prior German democracy fell it's not beyond the bounds of possibility.

OTOH, there are a lot of signs that Trump is not an actual racial bigot, but merely someone who feels right in taking advantage of any power he can get his hands on. I'd feel happier with this interpretation if his cabinet picks were different.

Hilary was anything but a demagogue

[rsilvergun]

she lost, too. On the plus side Austria just kicked theirs to the curb. On the downside the Philippians elected theirs...

Re:Hilary was anything but a demagogue

[rholtzjr]

I do not agree that she was not one as well. She also made quite a few promises to here constituents as well as donors. This is the first part make promises. The second part is using fear in order to gain support. Just based on the loss she encountered many liberal saw that the world was doomed. This was the fear she instilled by her and the current administration by trying to paint the picture that he will be the cause of the next World War or that he will have the nuclear launch codes. So by definition, the promises and fear seems to fit this pattern. So try and rationalize this anyway you want, but BOTH used fear and promises to gain the presidency.

What do you mean by

[rsilvergun]

anymore? When was China _ever_ communist? They've always been the same thing, a Kleptocracy.

If Bannon's not a racist

[rsilvergun]

then he's worse. He's someone who cynically manipulates racists to meet his ends. I'll take a genuine racist over that any day of the week.

Not going to work because ...

[dbIII]

So many places have tried to have their own Silicon Valley but it hasn't worked elsewhere because they try to get one thing right but actively stop other things from working.

It's a within a very short drive of where people desire to got to for holidays, had some electronics industry infrastructure, had a University nearby, had easy access to investors and was a place where subject matter experts from all over the world could come and work.
The only thing that came close was in Texas.

The Chinese don't currently have what it takes to inspire the founders of the next Intel or similar to flock there. Neither do we now of course, but we have something up and running.

Re:I have bad news for you.

[crimson tsunami]

How are they going to recall their workers? Do they ring some kind of big bell?

Re:I have bad news for you.

[__aaclcg7560]

How are they going to recall their workers? Do they ring some kind of big bell?

Mom calls to tell the kids to come home, get a new job, find a spouse and start having grandkids.

screw that

[uniquegeek]

Move to Canada. Or move back, rather. Welcome home.

Re:I have bad news for you.

[crimson tsunami]

Oh, so China and India don't do it.

Re:I have bad news for you.

[__aaclcg7560]

Oh, so China and India don't do it.

I find your lack of faith in Mother China and Mother India disturbing.

USA is already a police state

[Anonymous Coward]

The US is already a police state.

Look at this bullshit the TSA's been doing today

http://www.local10.com/news/talkers/breast-cancer-patient-denise-albert-outraged-by-tsa-treatment-

Re:National review, Mark Levin, etc

[Orgasmatron]

Spinning with glee, maybe. He's the one that removed every trace of meaningful opposition to Marxism from the Republican party and the conservative movement.

+5 Insightful? Where's the incontrovertible proof?

[nnappe]

The guy said that America should change its financial aid policy if Israel continued ignoring America's foreign policy opinion. Mind, even Bush told them to halt construction, and Israel's hawks never changed tany of their policies.
Sorry, even if his positions were much more extreme, and the guy were an anti-zionist (which in the last two decades for sure he wasn't), that is different from anti-semitism. There are many anti-zionist jewish, did you know?

Re:It's not over: electors refuse to vote for Trum

[david_thornley]

If Trump does not get a majority, the three top vote-getters go to the House. They will be Trump, Clinton, and a Republican to be named later. The House is likely to choose the last.

The "dismissed and not counted" is speculative. It isn't clear that the states can do that. We'd likely need a Supreme Court ruling. Moreover, the majority is of the number of electors selected, so if the state can retroactively unselect, the number needed for a majority goes down. (Or so I think; this looks pretty clear to me but not necessarily to the courts).

It's also possible that Clinton will pick up a state or two in a recount, although I'd currently bet against it.

There really hasn't been this big an incentive for electors to vote other than their states did before. Trump scares a LOT of Republicans.

I'm also not really comfortable with electors doing what Federalist 68 calls for being called "faithless".

Re:Fake News

[Coren22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

According to Wikipedia, she is a legal immigrant, including gaining citizenship through the proper path provided by the law. There is some kind of rumor being spread that she worked in the US prior to ever being in the US, but according to Trump's lawyer, it is a fabrication. Do you have more evidence than the story that used a rumor and a guessed date of a photo shoot?