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Struggling Workers Found Sleeping In Tents Behind Amazon's Warehouse (thecourier.co.uk)

"At least three tents have been spotted in woodland beside the online retail giant's base," reports a Scottish newspaper -- hidden behind trees, but within sight of Amazon's warehouse, and right next to a busy highway. An anonymous reader writes: Despite Scotland's "bitterly cold winter nights" -- with lows in the 30s -- the tent "was easier and cheaper than commuting from his home," one Amazon worker told the Courier. (Though yesterday someone stole all of his camping equipment.) Amazon charges its employees for shuttle service to the fulfillment center, which "swallows up a lot of the weekly wage," one political party leader told the Courier, "forcing people to seek ever more desperate ways of making work pay.

"Amazon should be ashamed that they pay their workers so little that they have to camp out in the dead of winter to make ends meet..." he continued. "They pay a small amount of tax and received millions of pounds from the Scottish National Party Government, so the least they should do is pay the proper living wage." Though the newspaper reports that holiday shopping has created 4,000 temporary jobs in the small town of Dunfermline, "The company came under fire last month from local activists who claimed that agency workers are working up to 60 hours per week for little more than the minimum wage and are harshly treated."

Amazon responded, "The safety and well-being of our permanent and temporary associates is our number one priority."

433 comments

  1. They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Nobody is forcing them to stay in tents, or to even work there at all. It's their choice. If it's so horrible surely they would leave for greener pastures. It sounds like this individual chose to do this out of convenience, nothing more.

    1. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, you could also have titled this story "Amazon hires thousands of temporary workers desperate for jobs, giving them a chance at Christmas!"

      But then, that wouldn't fit the narrative, would it? 4,000 jobs in a small town is a massive benefit to those who need work, but I guess some would rather they sat at home and just collected a check from other people's wages instead.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    2. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have a cousin who worked as a delivery driver for Amazon Now, contracted through some no-name third party company. He said he really liked it because in a typical day he made between $200 and $300 in wage+tips, but after the media did an "expose" on the fact that Amazon was treating them as contract-for-hire with no benefits, then suddenly he stopped getting work.

      Nobody was forcing him to do that work, but whistleblowing like this likely did force him to stop.

    3. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by TroII · · Score: 2

      Yeah! Why don't these losers just stroll over to the Job Forest, where jobs grow on trees in wondrous abundance?

    4. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm sorry but companies aren't allowed to operate like that in the EU or the UK.

      Apparently they are.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    5. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by MichaelSmith · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes, they could work in a book shop for example.

    6. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      That probably explains why my RERFX investment is performing like shit compared to everything else I have. I think I'll probably trade it for DODGX, or maybe something Asian based just to maintain a foreign holding.

    7. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's weird how lefties hate Walmart for the same thing, but love amazon.

      Their warehouse practices are truly atrocious, stateside and abroad.

    8. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Kohath · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's weird how lefties hate Walmart for the same thing, but love amazon.

      Hating Walmart is party-line obedience to union leaders. Plus classism. Amazon hasn't become a big focus for union organizers yet, and Amazon employs many members of the progressive tribe in The Seattle area. So they get a pass, for now.

      None of this has ever had anything to do with actually caring about the employees of these companies.

    9. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 0

      "Hating Walmart is party-line obedience to union leaders. Plus classism."

      Liberals indulge their classism by sneaking around in Walmarts shooting videos of whatever subset of fat rednecks they can find. Extra points if you get one in a wheelchair or one with bad teeth, because then you get to use your inbred and meth-head jokes.

      They haven't done this with Amazon because it's not as easy to poke video fun at a clientele of website clickers. Some enterprising Russian has to write a Trojan which takes over Amazon users' cameras and grabs footage. There will be so much of it that it should be easy to assemble a vid of the most outlandish users you can find and post it on Salon.com .

    10. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      This is the type of selfish bullshit that is threatening the US and the whole world right now. Thanks, jackass. You're the problem.

    11. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget that Bezos owns the shitrag WaPo, so he's part of the "approved global elite".

    12. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      In my experience there is always somebody trying to camp in the parking lot to save money. This says nothing at all about the company or the job. Even at google there are people who want to live in the parking lot. It is also somewhat traditional to provide a place for employee camping, though unpopular these days.

    13. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The job that grows on trees is called Hunter or Gatherer, and unless you have the right family tree it is generally banned, though in some cases you can buy a permit during a season.

      Within what is available for individual commercial harvesting with a permit there is often 5 or 6 weeks of the year when money can be made, depending on your region.

      And subsistence foraging is difficult or impossible if you're not allowed to live on the land.

    14. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Or move into homeless shelters and refuse to work for such a pittance

    15. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ultra conservative write Ben Stein wrote this after visiting the Walmart in Idaho

      “These were enormous sallow men and women, grotesquely obese teenagers, horribly tattooed women in sun dresses at 10 p.m. These were the Jukes and the Kallikaks. Their RV’s were parked in the Walmart parking lot. Terrifying, especially in Walmart’s ultra-bright jail line-up lights”

      Now tell us again what Liberals do?

      I suppose I can take your post and extrapolate and say conservatives indulge themselves in classism by rampant over generalizing and attempting to describe what liberals do in which in reality is what they do.... AKA hypocrisy.

    16. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Luthair · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately the big conglomerates have killed off the smaller companies. It's a vicious cycle where where people get paid less so need cheaper goods which depresses wages.

    17. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tips? No one in the UK tips delivery drivers.

    18. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Extra points if you get one in a wheelchair or one with bad teeth, because then you get to use your inbred and meth-head jokes.

      Inbreeding doesn't really limit itself to poor meth heads.

      https://pmchollywoodlife.files...

      https://fabiusmaximus.files.wo...

      http://telegrafi.com/wp-conten...

      And the kicker:

      https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    19. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazon warehouses have been on the leftist radar for decades already.

      Don't blame them because you don't give à shit.

    20. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Aighearach · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I hate Wally World and I've never even been in a union.

      Don't tell people what their issues really have to do with. Instead, listen to them and they will tell you. In my experience even those union guys are capable of independent thought and can determine what their motivations are.

      People aren't going to hate Amazon because the customer experience is pretty good, and they rely on the government to enforce basic labor standards. It isn't something people are very interested in on a per-company basis. Whereas issues with big box stores replacing numerous industries with many fewer jobs is more of a community issue, where the only solution is for the people who care to shop more locally and preserve some fraction of the smaller businesses.

      The one time I did shop at Wally World, we received a wedding gift of a $50 gift card from there. Which was easy to solve, we bought a gift for a holiday charity event.

    21. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      It's the export of US culture and values - first you watch our movies, then you follow our politics... careful, it's highly contagious.

    22. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Yeah, once in a while someone will say something mean-spirted and you'll look expecting to see yet another leftist hater, but you'll be surprised to see a non-leftist. How about we stop giving haters a pass because they're on our team?

    23. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by mspohr · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, we should thank Amazon for allowing workers to sleep in tents. They may freeze but they won't starve!
      Corporations are great and always have the health and well being of their employees as top priority.
      A temporary job where you freeze at night is much better than no job at all. We thank Amazon for providing great temporary jobs. This makes Amazon great again.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    24. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, we should thank Amazon for allowing workers to sleep in tents.

      Once an employee leaves Amazon's premises it is none of Amazon's damn business what they do or don't do. They have no right to "allow" or "prohibit" their employees from using, or not using, any sleeping arrangement.

      Disclaimer: When I first moved to Silicon Valley, I lived in a van for two years.

    25. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Out of 4,000 workers, a newspaper managed to find three tents out in the woods, one of which they reported as apparently abandoned and the actual person in one tent made it clear he had a home elsewhere he could sleep in, but preferred to be closer to work to save on commuting costs.

      Clearly Amazon is at fault for daring to provide someone employment. Probably the other 3,998 or so people they hired are just sleeping without tents because of their super low wages, right?

      In most places (notably, non-prisons and without servant's quarters...), companies don't decide for and aren't responsible for their employees where and how they are allowed to live. That's up to the employee to decide for themselves.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    26. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Funny

      Down by the river?

    27. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try working at morrissons..
      They ignore every type of legislation,
      Hse,workers rights,sickness,you name it,morrissons do it,nobody dares complain because they need the jobs/money,the union reps have been bought off by managment..
      It's only when something go horribly wrong and someone gets badly hurt or killed that hse executive get called UN and then all that happens is morrissons get a slap on the wrist and tiny fine..
      Another one that is even worse are MITIE,if you get the right wages your meant to,it means the thieving gits in accounts are on another holiday,paid for with the money stolen from others wages...
      Just because there is lots of legislation supposedly to stop firms exploiting/mis-treating staff,if it's not enforced or checked by anyone,then it's not worth the paper it's writen.. on

    28. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Extra points if you get one... with bad teeth

      Shouldn't the extra points be for spotting the atypical ones??

    29. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lefties hate Amazon because they don't pay their fair share of taxes.

    30. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've met a lot of people that have trouble wrapping their head around how I feel about unions.

      Unions are a glorious thing that have helped a lot of workers. I wish I had an engineers union like the Germans do that fight for all workers in it.

      The UAW one of the most corrupt, bloated, useless organizations I've ever had to deal with.

    31. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Companies are forced to track each employee and where they live, and what they spend their money on in the EU and the UK? Interesting.

    32. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Serge_Tomiko · · Score: 1

      neoconserative is not conservative, ultra or otherwise. Ben Stein is a typical neoconservative. Secular, bourgeois, Jewish, with the hypocritical belief that Israel can be an ethnostate for Jews, but white people must all become minorities in their own countries.

    33. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Package delivery drivers and mailmen aren't supposed to accept tips. They can be fired for doing so.

    34. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      Yes, we should thank Amazon for allowing workers to sleep in tents.

      Once an employee leaves Amazon's premises it is none of Amazon's damn business what they do or don't do. They have no right to "allow" or "prohibit" their employees from using, or not using, any sleeping arrangement.

      Disclaimer: When I first moved to Silicon Valley, I lived in a van for two years.

      That part about "leaving their premises" –– I think you missed something.

      The Amazon shuttle to the Amazon-owned (or rented) parking lot where your car is charges a lot of money. Once their car leaves the Amazon parking lot, then that is where your condition kicks in.

    35. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Ostracus · · Score: 1

      Next they'll start dating our women.

      --
      Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
    36. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They could take a lesson from British pensioners and burn books for warmth:

      http://metro.co.uk/2010/01/05/pensioners-burn-books-for-warmth-13123/

    37. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If you order something on Amazon Now, there's a field to put in the tip with a mandatory $5 minimum.

    38. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that a Trump speech with a s/r of America for Amazon?

    39. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      I'm part of the problem because I'm doing the responsible thing by investing in a 401k?

      I don't know about you, but I'm not going to bank on social security giving me just enough money to afford to live in an old folks' home. In case you haven't noticed, social security by design isn't intended to be enough to survive off of in retirement.

    40. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

      I prefer to be optimistic, there's a bright side to everything. In this case, for example, think of the positive impact on the climate from all these people dying of cold and starvation.

    41. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, sounds like a fake.

    42. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by tsotha · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Heh. I worked at a place that made specialized data processing equipment. We had a shower so people could ride to work, say, or work out during lunch.

      One of the engineers was living in his car in the parking lot, and at the time this guy had to have been making more than the average household income. I asked him why he didn't get an apartment and he shrugged and said he didn't see any reason to.

    43. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by tsotha · · Score: 1

      Just out of curiosity, why is it you figure they're not all living in tents? I mean, if they're not making enough money to get a place they should all be out there in the field... right?

    44. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by tsotha · · Score: 1

      I know, right? You always hear about third world countries like the UK not offering their citizens any opportunity for employment.

    45. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Commuting cost is because Amazon shuttle is expensive. Amazon pay people salary and then charges them a lot to get to and from work. The commuting cost is not independent of Amazon.

    46. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I used to work at the warehouse in the article. The car park is immediately outside the building. The shuttle bus is to the centre of town. You literally have to walk through the car park to get to the bus.

    47. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sense of entitlement you have is laughable. yea dude, they deserve to sleep in tents since they don't have white collar jobs and you work so much harder than them and deserve all the money you get for barely working and it has nothing to do with you being white and growing up in the right area with enough resources. You probably spit on homeless people too. Unless you are breaking your back working 80 hours a week in manual labor, you don't work hard.

    48. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Working at Amazon is not a job people are suposed to be able to live of off. It's the kind of thing teenager's take for pocket money. Remove that and the jobs will be full of middle ages laid-off IT workers. How will kid's get their first experience in the workplace that enables them to move up?

      Oops. I appear to have become cayenne8 for a moment. NSWBRASAP.

    49. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they only paid you not to write Engrish...

    50. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could stop thinking about yourself for a second and whether or not you can have a one or two story house on the beach when you retire. Try helping people and donate a tiny fraction of the ridiculous amount of money you have.

    51. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you toe either line you're dense. How can you honestly say either has the best intentions for anyone besides shareholders?

    52. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are on benefits and refuse viable work then you can have your benefits stopped, so your options, if there is no other work in the area, may be to take this or have no money.

    53. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, down by Chris Farley.

    54. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by oobayly · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You had to over embellish with "tips", didn't you...

    55. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's nearly Christmas, so time to being out the Christmas themed quotes.

      Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    56. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The one time I did shop at Wally World, we received a wedding gift of a $50 gift card from there. Which was easy to solve, we bought a gift for a holiday charity event.

      How virtuous of you.

    57. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      A van in San Fran is significantly warmer than a tent in Scotland especially in the winter.

    58. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The left hates Amazon too. RMS is as batshit crazy left as they come and he tells you to never shop Amazon. Calls the Kindle the Swindle.

    59. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Entrope · · Score: 1

      Still, unless you're talking Kelvin or Rankine, 30 degrees shouldn't be anyone's idea of "bitterly cold". Here in balmy Virginia, our overnight lows this time of year are 5-10 degrees below freezing.

    60. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true. There is no minimum. $5 os suggested

    61. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's nothing forcing those people to use the shuttle, Riding it must be the least expensive way for them to commute, albeit not "free" (as in part of their salary).

    62. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $5?

    63. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the cost of the shuttle bus provided by Amazon is too high, there should be an easy way to get there on your own - like just ride a bike all the 6 km to work from the city centre of Dunfermline to "Amazon Way, Dunfermline" near the M90. Or carpooling. Or taking the bus lines 3A or 83 from the city centre.

    64. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd rather they worked and the company paid a proper wage.
      But I guess that doesn't fit YOUR narrative.

    65. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They could also just organize and have power. Nah, just eat your swill and shut up.

    66. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Weekly night time low seems to be 2 celcius, which seems about right. It can get really cold, though.

    67. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was working on other side - in Greenock. Night shift bus was provided by employement agency and cost 5 pounds to get from Glasgow centre. Local transport - bus and car would charge you a bit more to get to Greenock plus taxi expenses.

      At that time it was about the same cost as hour rate. I worked later in different(not Amazon) factory and it was minimum that I paid for fuel to get to work. Complete bullshit story. The only sin about big companies, like Amazon, is that they are big and small companies who could provide shite service have died out because of them.

      Factory jobs are not meant for people, but for robots. Doing same operation every day, that does not requires learning of skill is not a profession.

    68. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      There is another columnist like that today, Kevin Williamson at National Review. He spent this whole election season poking fun at people who don't have Roman numerals in their names, until suddenly the ignorant horde rose up and elected the 'wrong' candidate. Oopsie!

      But it's on the left, once the defenders of the working stiffs, where this attitude is standard operating procedure.

    69. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then they might actually start working and creating things.....

    70. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We could also just return to feudalism and be grateful for whatever portion of our earnings our masters allow us to keep. I mean, there are all kinds of great options when you think about it.

    71. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really, all the other stores have shut down thanks to amazon.

    72. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shut your fucking cock hole you whiny self entitled douche.

      Are you really telling some dude that he should choose a worst investment and create/leave less for his family because it fits your narrative?

      Seriously, go fuck yourself.

    73. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate Walmart for many reasons: paying workers so little, and giving them no benefits that they have to rely on the state to provide medical insurance for many. For moving into small communities that smaller stores are forced out of business, up to the point where even the regional supermarket chain has to close its doors. For then pulling out when that market doesn't pan out, leaving that community with no grocery store, making residents drive to the next town just to put meat and potatoes on the table.

      Walmart is demonstrably a cancer on the US economy, which puts it's externalities on the American public, and it's profits in their pockets.

    74. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      30 isn't bitterly cold.

      Spend a few days working in -45, get back to me on bitterly cold.

    75. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Europeans tend to be a bit wimpy when it comes to temperatures, they just don't have as broad of a temperature range as we do in the US. The only ones who can fully funcion in Mid Atlantic winters can't deal with our summers and v.v., let alone places that have even wider temperature bands (Illinois).

    76. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      also, let them eat cake.

    77. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh, come on, fuck yourself too. that kind of egotistical behavior works just as long as there's a perceived majority living it. then there's revolution and war that leaves only the richest rich. your people are already fed up enough that they voted for trump. guess how long it will be until the status is not quo any more.

    78. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would live like that too if it were legal and I didnt have a family. In fact I would build a small cabin and outhouse there and probably keep chickens.

    79. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Europeans tend to be a bit wimpy.

      FTFY

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    80. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      You could stop thinking about yourself for a second and whether or not you can have a one or two story house on the beach when you retire. Try helping people and donate a tiny fraction of the ridiculous amount of money you have.

      Uhh...you know there's an income limit for 401k, right? The maximum income you can make to be allowed to contribute anything is $132,000 if you're single. That's far from being able to afford a house on the beach. And even then, the maximum you can put in your 401k each year is $18,000 per year with roth being $5,500 per year (meaning you can contribute up to $23,000 per year.)

      Between work and other stuff I do, I make about $80k per year, with my 401k contribution set to 20%, AND, I very aggressively save my money for the ultimate purpose of paying cash on a house in suburban Phoenix. I have to live very cheaply just to do this, and I'm not doing it just to give it away. I have stage 4 CKD, which could soon render me unable to work, so this is prudent financial planning.

    81. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      I used to work at the warehouse in the article. The car park is immediately outside the building. The shuttle bus is to the centre of town. You literally have to walk through the car park to get to the bus.

      Well, that does change things then. Completely.

      Thanks.

    82. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Post proof or retract liar.

    83. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well we do let babies sleep outside in the freezing cold.
      http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988

    84. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by kenh · · Score: 1

      The issue is the economy in Scotland, not Amazon - Amazon created jobs, and because of a glut of applicants can pay workers lower wages. The workers camping out in tents are workers that do not live near the Amazon facility, and as noted in the story, the issues for the camping workers are equal parts cost and convienience: the tent "was easier and cheaper than commuting from his home,". Easier and cheaper than commuting from home - these aren't homeless workers, they HAVE homes, just not local to the Amazon facility.

      --
      Ken
    85. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by kenh · · Score: 2

      The article describe three tents outside the Amazon facility, one abandoned, one where the occupant say he's there out of convenience (the tent "was easier and cheaper than commuting from his home,"), and no word about the third.

      We're talking about 2-3 workers out of several thousand temporary workers...that is a tiny, tiny, tiny portion of the workforce.

      --
      Ken
    86. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by fferreres · · Score: 1

      They could at least TRY. The owner is one of the richest persons on earth and has made a business of destroying local shops because his system is better IF you exclude de employment side (which buyer don't experience directly). Starbucks charged more, and pays growers extra vs market price in what is the fair price program. You could argue that Starbucks doesn't need that, but guess what? Many people like to pay a bit more and know those growing the crops can have a better pay for growing coffee usually with hugely difficult personal conditions.

      Why Amazon can't have a "2-day Fair Price Shipping"

      I think smart people miss the chance to say, people working at very low wages for thinks I need should get paid market price, but something better. And it is MUCH BETTER to fund working people through thise that can aford to help a bit (millions and millions) that it is to have the governement comoeting with thanda m so they don't starve as this results in: 1) rise and ultimate takeover by populism 2) many people that prefer no work at all vs a small premium for doing a huge effort for some extra bucks

      We need those up the wealth chain to be able to pay a bit more so workers earn a decent living and have a chance to enjoy a fairer planet.

      The last thing to note is that in a world where there are more people that need to work to eat than jobs (this happens city by city, is not linear) then workers have no negotiaring power. During the industrial revolution people would die on mines, children would work. It was a hugely sad time with some jobs costing parents their lives in mines for just food. It was a huge factor that many of these emigrated to the US to built the country Slashdot lives on. Today, there is nowhere to go.

      Where are the efforts to investigate hie to get everyone to contribute their lives and work hard for a future designed to include everyone living on this floor? Let's asume we don't need everyone to work with our current direction. What ideas can we have to need everyone? If we can figure it out we can avoid turning our future into the dystopian metropolis movie or the 20-25 movies that note this (Oblivion and so many others), and we can also avoid it turning it into Venezuela of sorts that cause the sane problems but without any progress at all.

      I'd pay a bit more shipping and would like Amazon to think they have no interest in contributing something in the world of extreme automation they are forging for society.

      Amazon, wake up!

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    87. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by dryeo · · Score: 1

      I've camped out in the interior at 30 below and on the wet coast, which is more like Scotland, at a couple of degrees above freezing and camping out in wet is worse. Tents have a habit of leaking, clothes don't dry out or you have to sleep in them all night to dry them out and even that heavy sleeping bag doesn't keep you warm when damp. Much rather camp out below freezing.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    88. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by fferreres · · Score: 1

      Why new generations on Slashdot think the can be extremely offensive and rude? If you cannot have punch in your argument and need to through insults you just list the point and made a fool of yourself in public.

      Why is this even tolerated?

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    89. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by thegarbz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      One of the engineers was living in his car in the parking lot, and at the time this guy had to have been making more than the average household income. I asked him why he didn't get an apartment and he shrugged and said he didn't see any reason to.

      Indeed never presume to understand the reasons why people do something. We had an instrument technician who parked his caravan outside our plant when we hired him as a temporary worker. I asked him about it and he said it was easy. He was single, not attached to a location, had no expenses, and after doing it for under 2 years had enough money to buy a house in cash setting him up for a fantastic future life.

      Here I am 8 years later with a mortgage.

    90. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      The commuting cost is not independent of Amazon.

      Actually it is. Commuting is always independent of work unless the only way to get to that work was by shuttle, but as this person has shown it's not.

    91. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Europeans didn't invent safe spaces and trigger warnings.

    92. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Down by the river?

      there is no rain in California, so there is no river in Silicon Valley.
      Pemanente Creek is mostly concrete

      *except it has rained daily this past week and there's a lot of flooding currently

    93. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by geek · · Score: 1

      Ultra conservative write Ben Stein wrote this after visiting the Walmart in Idaho

      “These were enormous sallow men and women, grotesquely obese teenagers, horribly tattooed women in sun dresses at 10 p.m. These were the Jukes and the Kallikaks. Their RV’s were parked in the Walmart parking lot. Terrifying, especially in Walmart’s ultra-bright jail line-up lights”

      Now tell us again what Liberals do?

      I suppose I can take your post and extrapolate and say conservatives indulge themselves in classism by rampant over generalizing and attempting to describe what liberals do in which in reality is what they do.... AKA hypocrisy.

      So where did he generalize? He was being specific about one particular walmart. BTW I live near that walmart right now and he's fucking right. They are the biggest freaks and wierdos on Earth.

    94. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The shuttle is not a compulsory service, it is a convenience they supply to help reduce cost for employees. You are free to drive your own car, walk, ride a bike, whatever the hell you like.

    95. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      News to me. I make more than that and regularly contribute to a 401k, and then some to investments.

    96. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by swillden · · Score: 1

      Commuting cost is because Amazon shuttle is expensive.

      We don't know that. We know that one employee preferred not to pay it. Maybe it is expensive, maybe the employee in question is just very tight-fisted. Some numbers would be nice.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    97. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Zorpheus · · Score: 1

      As someone else wrote, Amazon charges for a bus that it provides to the city centre. People don't pay for that bus when they come by car.

    98. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do like me and ride a scooter or efficient motorcycle. My scooter gets 80 or 90 MPG and goes 60 MPH. My street motorcycle gets 70 MPG and goes 110+ MPH. My dirt motorcycle that I use for the ice and snow gets 70 MPG and goes about 70 MPH. All of those bikes together cost less than $5k and insurance is about $350 per year for all of them (that's about half the cost of a single car).

      I don't even think about the price of commuting because it's so cheap. I ride all year also, even in the snow and ice. All you need is the right gear and tires.

    99. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      If you're married, you can make up to $186,000.

    100. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by retchdog · · Score: 1

      As they say, there's a time to reap and a time to sow. Reap plebs, that is! For years, we've participated in more and more intricate and abstract systems to, ultimately, shuffle money from the poor to the rich, where it is ultimately hoarded (i.e. destroyed). Unfortunately a certain number of people had to be paid to achieve this level of destitution! Well, let me tell you, if you think nature abhors a vacuum, the market hungers on stuffing those holes and closing loops. Coming up: riots and automation of the far-overvalued circle jerk that is called the "middle class".

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    101. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By the Amazon..

    102. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People working at a warehouse probably don't have $5k in savings to buy a motorcycle.

      In fact spending $5k would be a bad move given that you can get a cheap second hand car for less and then car pool and manage much better fuel economy overall, at a higher level if safety and with greater overall utility.

    103. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by yuriklastalov · · Score: 1

      No, but they gave us Hitler and Communism, so... yay?

    104. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot are probably living with p parents, which is increasingly common up to around the age of 30

    105. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not any more. We sent the wimps and the religious zealots across the pond a while ago..

    106. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by mjwx · · Score: 4, Funny

      You had to over embellish with "tips", didn't you...

      The fine article mentioned Scotland.

      Scotland as you may or may not know is part of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland otherwise known as the "UK" for short. The UK is a short trip across the Atlantic Ocean which re refer to as "the Pond", right above this little consent that a certain NASCAR driver may call COMMUNIST but most of us know as Europe or Overbearing Money Grubbing Wankers... depending if you're sane or a UKIP voter.

      Here in the UK we do not engage in this vulgar activity of "tipping" as we prefer to pay our workers a wage they can live on rather than relegating them to begging for scraps from the lords table... We did away with that nonsense centuries ago.

      Of course, that being Scotland they will be fine if Amazon dropped off some Tennents and a few packs of fags.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    107. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by mjwx · · Score: 2

      I've met a lot of people that have trouble wrapping their head around how I feel about unions.

      Unions are a glorious thing that have helped a lot of workers. I wish I had an engineers union like the Germans do that fight for all workers in it.

      The UAW one of the most corrupt, bloated, useless organizations I've ever had to deal with.

      A lot of people understand.

      Especially outside the US where we can separate the concept of labour unionism and the current sad state of some unions.

      I agree and support the idea of labour unionism, it has bought us many advances and was instrumental in the rise of the working middle class. What I cant agree with are 6 union secretaries sitting around a table at a Chinese restaurant deciding things for everyone else.

      Most of the above quote can be attributed to Australian politician and columnist, Mark Latham. You can support the idea of a union whilst opposing corruption within a union.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    108. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      You can support the idea of a union whilst opposing corruption within a union.

      I wish that was true here. You should visit 'Murica sometime.

      You can't support single payer helathcare without being a dirty communist. You can't hate Monsanto and like GMOs. You can't say anything positive about Trump without being a sexist, racist, or homophobe. You can't support unions while hating the UAW.

      For politics you have Democrats or Republicans. So you're either for us or against us.

    109. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... maybe the employee in question is just very tight-fisted

      Wait, this is Scotland, right? Why the maybe?

    110. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      "over embellish"

      Pot, kettle?

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    111. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by oobayly · · Score: 1

      I'm confused, not about the UK - I'm a resident but not a citizen - but because you seem to think that needed explaining to me!

    112. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by oobayly · · Score: 1

      Uh?

    113. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Social Security was never meant to be all you survived on. And, I'm saying that as someone who's supporting both his mom and mother-in-law, both of whom are living on only their SS, and my support.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    114. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      You only need to google "mafia influence on UAW" to understand why. The Teamsters is another example.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    115. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by swillden · · Score: 1

      ... maybe the employee in question is just very tight-fisted

      Wait, this is Scotland, right? Why the maybe?

      The employee may not be a true Scotsman.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    116. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the engineers was living in his car in the parking lot, and at the time this guy had to have been making more than the average household income. I asked him why he didn't get an apartment and he shrugged and said he didn't see any reason to.

      Indeed never presume to understand the reasons why people do something. We had an instrument technician who parked his caravan outside our plant when we hired him as a temporary worker. I asked him about it and he said it was easy. He was single, not attached to a location, had no expenses, and after doing it for under 2 years had enough money to buy a house in cash setting him up for a fantastic future life.

      Here I am 8 years later with a mortgage.

      Wow, either he was well paid or housing is super cheap where he was. I'm make low 6 figures and if I didn't spend a dime for 2 years I still wouldn't have enough to buy a run down house, let alone something nice. Garbage houses costs $350k here.

    117. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      One of the engineers was living in his car in the parking lot, and at the time this guy had to have been making more than the average household income. I asked him why he didn't get an apartment and he shrugged and said he didn't see any reason to.

      Indeed never presume to understand the reasons why people do something. We had an instrument technician who parked his caravan outside our plant when we hired him as a temporary worker. I asked him about it and he said it was easy. He was single, not attached to a location, had no expenses, and after doing it for under 2 years had enough money to buy a house in cash setting him up for a fantastic future life.

      One of my friends working at Amazon in Seattle has a coworker that lives out of her camper that she parks around the area. Uses the company facilities to shower and all that. There are plenty of such camper vans that you can find just walking around the various parks or anywhere parking is not metered. One can blame the high housing costs in Seattle for part of the reason. Still, there are plenty of people doing the same thing out on the peninsula too, old hippies living out their self sustaining farming dream, younger guys living out of their 10'x10' cabins, etc. Once ended up at a friend of a friend's land. He had a job and bought himself ten acres, slept in a small camper, and spent most of his time sitting around a bonfire drinking beer with friends. I had one friend who working on his PhD just decide to leave and hop trains and camp for the next two years. Some people just decide to do that sort of thing.

    118. Re: They could always work elsewhere. by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      If you live in a developed nation and despite opportunity to do otherwise your ambition in life is no greater than to be a surrogate robot producing and/or shuffling commodities why should we care? I would much rather use my money be used to pull people otherwise able and willing up out of their desperate situations. Kind of like those coffee plantation workers living in impoverished nations.

      If you want to run a small shop as a hobby--perhaps for your retirement--then go for it. But don't expect people for the sake of a nostalgic era long past to prefer inefficient distribution of commodities to modern alternatives able to offer superior choice and price for everyday needs. Mom and pop shops are a recreational activity for the consumer and should be operated in kind by their owners.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    119. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by hucker75 · · Score: 0

      Indeed. An employer can never be blamed for anything. The employee is welcome to leave and find better work elsewhere. Instead they choose to whine like working is some kind of human right!

    120. Re:They could always work elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In some country we were having trouble with tipping, having coffee and conversation every day and nothing else. The tip was, as per the 15% custom, quite meager. When I asked, the waitress told us they were getting a percentage from each order, so we simply increased our nearly daily consumption, and that was it, no more spare change tipping. We became an easy table with only coffee refilled and one round of cake or single dishes, to comply. The waitresses did not look quite happy but more relaxed and we had no more trouble. They also stopped stamping the ticket on us to say it was enough of our presence, so we could forget about time and have our long cafeteria conversation without pressures. It was becoming an issue we would be there at the turn of shifts so there were doubts as to which set of waitresses was getting the tips, we only ensured to ask the waitress who started serving us for the ticket so she could leave with her percentage already paid, and sometimes would reorder another drink for the new waitress to be happy. That amazon drivers would get tips is news to me, but I order nearly exclusively to the locker or have it sent to the postal office.

  2. "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by JoeyRox · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You should be ashamed you pay so little for the goods and services that free-market economies provide. Calculate all the money you've saved and remit that total to the workers' salary augmentation fund.

    1. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Link to said fund?

      Where is my Whoosh? I missed your sarcasm.

    2. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but i want muh cheap stuff )))):

    3. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by unixisc · · Score: 1

      You should be ashamed you pay so little for the goods and services that free-market economies provide. Calculate all the money you've saved and remit that total to the workers' salary augmentation fund.

      Just that we don't have the money that would enable them to sleep comfortably in a reasonably heated bedroom in a nice and modest house. Once all this is automated, they won't have any work or income, but hopefully, they can sleep in the comfort of their homes, assuming that they're not evicted for the crime of not paying their rent

    4. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by laughingcoyote · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Cut executive salaries in half, put the savings in your hypothetical fund, and I bet you'll find it has plenty of money.

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
    5. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You should be ashamed you pay so little for the goods and services that free-market economies provide. Calculate all the money you've saved and remit that total to the workers' salary augmentation fund.

      In America, we obviously elected a guy who basically said he would make it all better, but gave no specifics. Looking at his choices, I don't see it all getting better, though it is possible we get involved in a trade war so more gets made here. Even if that happens, most things are going to be made by robots, unless it is cheaper to use minimum wage labor. Also, if we get involved in a trade war we hurt exporters like Boeing, though in their case they are already a multinational. They just move the creation of those aircraft completely to other countries, and there is nothing to tax. Still the net result of that kind of actions is unlikely to be high paying factory jobs, baring a few exceptions. Those times have passed. Sure you will hire some engineers and computer programmers, but not a lot of them.

      The kind of people he is hiring are basically people that got rich by making sure their employees were not. In their companies most profit went to the top tiers and that was it. How can we expect a different outcome by putting them in charge?

      You could say something like, well people should buy local/American/etc to support their fellow Americans. For that to work people have to be living well enough above their means that they can effectively donate money for these American made goods, and even then it won't happen often.

      You could cut benefits and aid so that taxes were less and people could make more money, but then without those benefits and aid many of those people are going to turn to crime, since it is all that they have left. It is generally more expensive to keep people in jail than in a house. (You also have to pay for the larger force of police, judges, court system officials, lawyers, etc.)

      You could retrain people to get them in jobs that do exists. That does work, at least better than most other options.

      You could focus taxes on those who can afford it. That does work, since those with the most money are more apt to hoard it. Now one can argue fairness there.

      You could focus on revising policy proposals so that they better do the job intended. That can also work. For instance, Obamacare was a step forward. Its mandate was necessary to create a larger risk pool. Too many people just ignored it in favor of the fine. In short, use science to figure out how to fix things, and don't just cancel the bits people don't like such as the mandate. I have relatives that hate it, because they demand health care for free, such as with emergency rooms.

      You could focus on teaching kids to spot lies and critical thinking. Here I think is where we really need to focus. That kind of training will server them better than pretty much every other thing they learn. When you do a complex job it is seldom only with what you know, but how you apply what you know to learn what you need to know to solve the problem at hand. This is vital, yet politicians often win by lying or oversimplifying things, and it is not linked to one party.

      You could focus on allowing other parties a shot with things like instant run off voting. Sometimes our politics are so messed up that both parties screw up on particular issues. We need to get beyond two parties.

      Education might be a good place to start people in learning how to do real work, at least say in the high school phase. Pay them for their results and make it hard. If everyone is getting a B your making it too easy. College is similar. In areas that are in demand create scholarships, but set high standards. We need to somehow instill a hard work ethic. I'm not sure how to do that.

      At some point we may have to start reducing the work week since full employment will become more and more difficult to implement. Already at work we have little stores that have nobody wo

    6. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by JoeyRox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Cut the financial incentive for employees to move up the ranks in half and see how well that company performs.

    7. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by beelsebob · · Score: 3, Informative

      Probably exactly the same given that it's repeatedly been demonstrated that beyond being comfortable, salary is a really terrible motivator for job performance or job satisfaction.

    8. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should be ashamed you pay so little for the goods and services that free-market economies provide. Calculate all the money you've saved and remit that total to the workers' salary augmentation fund.

      Jeff Bezos is worth 66.4 billion dollars. 20 billion of which he made IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS.

      One source:
      http://www.forbes.com/profile/jeff-bezos/

    9. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. If you cut the incentive to move up the ranks vs. move to a different company, sure, the company will suffer. But I don't know anyone who would say "Well, for a $12M bonus I'd want to be CEO, but at $6M, no way" Or at least, I don't think any significant number of people would, and I sincerly doubt the one you'd want to be CEO would.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    10. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      We usually would do that through progressive taxation and redistribution (esp. through services). That way, instead of hammering the person saving 30 pence of cat food (who may not be able to afford it), you get it from the profits of the people who aren't paying enough to their employees.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    11. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      In The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith stated that workers should be treated as a renewable resource.

      That is: Pay your workers a wage that can sustain a livable condition. Because if you don't, they'll come in to work tired and hungry, and will be less productive.

    12. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

      Yeah, plenty of money, if we define an increase of 2 cents per hour as plenty. Do you realize how many executives amazon has, and how many employees amazon has, world wide. It is extremely disproportionate.

    13. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      In this day and age, Adam Smith is considered a communist.

    14. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      Probably exactly the same given that it's repeatedly been demonstrated that beyond being comfortable, salary is a really terrible motivator for job performance or job satisfaction.

      BS.

      I could fix your computer no matter the make; no matter whether it's a software or hardware problem. But my PhD and 20 years of experience in Industry & Academia will compel me to say, "No", no matter what pay rate you might offer.

    15. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Barlo_Mung_42 · · Score: 1

      But then the executive will have to decide between the yacht and a third home. Think of the staff they'll have to let go! /s

    16. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Probably exactly the same given that it's repeatedly been demonstrated that beyond being comfortable, salary is a really terrible motivator for job performance or job satisfaction.

      (snip)

      ...will compel me to say, "No", no matter what pay rate you might offer.

      Pretty sure you just proved his point? You're comfortable, so no matter the salary, you're not motivated enough to fix a computer.

    17. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by laughingcoyote · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If that would happen, sure.

      But it wouldn't matter for two reasons. Your average employee might reach management, but the days of there being a career path from the factory floor to the CEO's office are long gone. (It wasn't very often the case to start with anyway.) We're talking about executives, not your average floor manager position that an employee might have a chance of reaching.

      Secondly, the reason I say to cut it in half is because these people make tons of money. Are you telling me you'd take the position for $3 million a year, but $1.5 million just wouldn't cut it? Because I suspect most of these lower level employees would be overjoyed to take it at the $1.5 million level.

      There is no excuse for the people at the top making that much while paying employees starvation wages.

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
    18. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      People have studied that popular saying to death. The most outrageous offenders might be able to raise the income of their employees by a cent an hour.
      In this case, if you cut every Amazon executive's salary in half, they could give every employee a raise of a few thousandths of a cent.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    19. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just proved beelsebob's point.

    20. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Grapekiller · · Score: 1

      Cut executive salaries in half, put the savings in your hypothetical fund, and I bet you'll find it has plenty of money.

      If you take ALL of the salaries of the 6 highest paid executives at amazon and redistributed it evenly among the rest of the employees it comes out to less than $45 per year each. Say what you will about worker wages and about executive compensation but the idea that you could improve the former by cutting the latter is a foolish one.

    21. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's incredible that you're actually this stupid.

    22. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Our new President would say that the best excuse is "because they can."

    23. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Cut the financial incentive for employees to move up the ranks in half and see how well that company performs.

      Do you really need to pay executives 300 times more than the average worker to make a worker aspire to climb the ranks? Wouldn't 10X salary also encourage workers to move up?

    24. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Probably exactly the same given that it's repeatedly been demonstrated that beyond being comfortable, salary is a really terrible motivator for job performance or job satisfaction.

      BS.

      I could fix your computer no matter the make; no matter whether it's a software or hardware problem. But my PhD and 20 years of experience in Industry & Academia will compel me to say, "No", no matter what pay rate you might offer.

      Technically, what you said doesn't necessarily disagree with what the parent poster said. You make enough not to be bribed by work you really don't want to do. My PhD and experience means my job doesn't completely suck. The fact that few employers in this area need someone like me means I'm stuck in a defense related job that I wish I wasn't, since that is who wants my skills. It is not salary that makes me stay or go, nor is it salary that really determines performance that much. If I go I want to work at a company that is clearly ethically better. So far I haven't found one. Now, a higher salary would mean I could retire sooner, and it would mean the company gave a crap, or at least was willing to put substantially more money to pretend to. It won't happen, nor will I do the necessary sucking up to make it happen, though admittedly I am doing a bit of it lately. It is amazing how life can corrode one's sense of ethics, though to be fair it is not that much of an ethically gray area to pretend you care about someones opinion, if doing so results in a useful result, or is it? I forget.

      More importantly, I think we need field trips where we show high school students what types of jobs they can get if they don't get a good education. That would be useful. Maybe we could also show them what a good education can result in. Yes, in today's world if you have a good education you can be middle class ;) My how standards have fallen. Still it is important to base ones plans on reality, not pie in the sky promises, such as we have heard of late from some orange persons.

    25. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its *net* income after all the operating costs and those salaries are paid was 596 million in 2015. Keep in mind that a decent chunk of that original 107 billion goes to the executives; Bezos himself is worth 66 billion now for example; and that's certainly not from his "salary" of "80 000", since hey, stock options.

      But even if we *ONLY* touched the net-worth; so that not even the executive pay packages get any trimmings in the process, you could halve that net worth and give all 268,900 employees under it about an extra 1100 a year. At the very least that's enough to cover getting to and from work, and a couple extra grocery bills.

    26. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Makes me wonder what his PhD is in. And where it's from.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    27. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by lgw · · Score: 4, Informative

      Cut executive salaries in half, put the savings in your hypothetical fund, and I bet you'll find it has plenty of money.

      Amazon has a salary cap. No one makes more than ~$180k in salary. Perhaps you wanted a different word? In total executive compensation, the CEO made 1.6M, and one other guy made $230k. So try doing the research next time. http://finance.yahoo.com/quote...

      Bezos is vastly wealthy because he founded the company and owns a non-trivial percentage of the stock. The other executives are no doubt also worth many millions, for the same reason - they held on to early stock grants. Amazons average profit per employee is ~$2600. Of course, their gross profit is much higher, but they spend most of it hiring more people, and buying servers.

      All of this is public record. But you seem to prefer ignorance.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    28. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ayup - another American that doesn't know the difference between socialism and communism?

    29. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I don't get it: you open the post claiming bullshit, then spend the rest of the post vehemently agreeing.

      You have a PhD and 20 years industry experience so you expect a more interesting job that fixing computers no matter how well it pays. If that's not an example of salary being a poor motivator, then I don't know what is.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    30. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      All of this is public record. But you seem to prefer ignorance.

      Well done, you managed to be extremely pedantic. Reread the parent post with "renumeration" in place of salary.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    31. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I bought European made cloths in the late 80's and 90's I was called a snob. At the university I was target of some hippie like people with long hair, long beards and 'Arafat'-scarfs. I was called a capitalist swine, a Jew, a far right neo Nazi and all that stuff. It didn't take long before I bought my first child labor produced cheap cloths. Not because I wanted to, but because I was forced to if I wanted to be safe from far left activist at the university. A few years after I graduated there were no more European made cloths. All the brands, even the luxury brands, had moved their production to the east and almost all used child labor.

      What can I do about it? Why should I be ashamed? I'm not a violent political activist. I just want to support business with my wallet. But when there are no local shops left anymore and when the local city's shops no longer offer the things I need, because they couldn't survive the competition from large shopping malls, what can I do? Hold up a sign with "don't buy online or in large shopping malls"?

      Communism in Europe imploded while I was at the university. But today it is more alive than every thanks to the socialist internationalism aka globalism. Free trade is now the name, although there is not a lot of freedom in the current free trade agreements. All have one purpose, to make it impossible as a small producer or shop owner to compete with multinationals. What is the answer? I don't know. In the US people seem to have voted for Trump. Not because he is the solution, but because he is something else than the traditional left and right wing politicians. In Europe you see the same evolution. Yet whenever an alternative doesn't get elected (although while they are still very popular), the established politicians on both the left and right side celebrate it not only as a victory but as a sign to continue with open borders, mass immigration, globalization, destruction of small scale economies, social housing, etc...

      We live in a weird world, where a social house cost 3 times more than a villa, but whoever is allowed to buy a social house gets it at 1/2 the price of a villa thanks to subsidies. That's not free market, that's a government controlled housing system that thanks to diversity laws encourages soft deportation. When you open a store and you see that you have to pay without tax more for the goods you want to sell, than what the shopping mall asks its customers including tax, than you understand that you can never compete. Especially when your costs for opening a shop is 25 times higher than for the shopping malls on their subsidized 'shopping parks'.

      But what can I do about it? I can't do anything about it. When I think about it, I get sick and depressed. Whenever it's time to vote, the only politicians who want to help local businesses are the ones that are called racist, far right, neo nazi, etc... But all 'normal' politicians think the current evolution is good. So what can I do? When I vote for alternative politicians I've to feel ashamed to vote for someone 'evil'. When I vote for the 'normal' politicians I've to feel guilty because I support the current degeneration of our society.
       
      I also feel guilty after about 20 years of IT work to have killed thousands of jobs. I still see people who lost their job because of my 'I create one script to make 10 jobs obsolete'-skills (as a matter of speaking) who once had a wanted skill and now have to clean houses, subsidized of course. Some of them have entered Amazon like business, but it is not for everyone. Hours suck, stress level is high, reward is low. You don't even have a feeling that you have accomplished anything. The only people I know who like to work in such a Amazon like business are people who either use drugs or antidepressants. 'Normal' people give up after only a few months. People have a brain, they have to be able to shut off the brain to keep a job like those in an Amazon business.

      But what can I do? Nothing, simply nothing. I'm saving money as hard as I can to try to retire as early as possible. That's the only thing I think I can do, to step out of the 'system' as soon as possible.

    32. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Waccoon · · Score: 2

      If only that applied to executives, too.

      Oh, right... you said salaries, not bonuses.

    33. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by geekmux · · Score: 1

      Cut the financial incentive for employees to move up the ranks in half and see how well that company performs.

      There are two groups of people in companies today; those that are willing to work in the slave labor class, and those that are hired into the buddy-system executive class.

      H1-B abuses are a prime example of keeping the willing pool of applicants full, so good luck finding a fucking ladder anywhere.

    34. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by kramerd · · Score: 1

      In 2015 Amazon had 230,800 employees. CEO pay (Jeff Bezos) was 1.68 M. Other publicly listed officers made 175k, 231k, 73k, 175k, and 7.8M. I dont see how cutting their pay in half and giving each employee an extra $21.77 per year (1.1 cents per hour on 40 hour work weeks) would make any difference.

      http://www1.salary.com/Amazon-...

      These numbers include equity (stock options).

    35. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by swb · · Score: 1

      If you're making $15/hour and the senior executive is making the equivalent of $150/hour and that gets cut to $135/hour, do they really lose their incentive to move up in the ranks?

      I'd say what kills their incentive isn't trivial cuts to top executive compensation, it's when the next rung up involves a pay increase to a whopping $16.50 an hour and an additional 10 hours a week of unpaid overtime.

    36. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by msauve · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Reread the parent post with "renumeration" in place of salary."

      Renumeration? You're arguing that he should just make up numbers?

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    37. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ummm, that pretty much applies to EVERY elite out there. That now includes our current and past presidents. That is the only realistic incentive to get into politics these days as once you leave office, you will make a good deal of money.

    38. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cut the financial incentive for employees to move up the ranks in half and see how well that company performs.

      Let's see:

      From 1978 to 2014, inflation-adjusted CEO compensation increased 997 percent, a rise almost double stock market growth and substantially greater than the painfully slow 10.9 percent growth in a typical worker’s annual compensation over the same period.

      * http://www.epi.org/publication/top-ceos-make-300-times-more-than-workers-pay-growth-surpasses-market-gains-and-the-rest-of-the-0-1-percent/

      Has that rise in compensation seen a corresponding rise in the quality of the service that is being offered?

    39. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly, with the current corrupt system, those high salaries are needed. They aren't paying for the skill of the CEO, but for his connections. The well connected are in a revolving door between the top tiers of politics, bureaucracy, and corporations, making money all the way around. If you don't hire one of the best, your company just won't do very well.

    40. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People who stay in tents are just nuts, if they don't use bus, that costs same amount that they would pay for common bus service, but it is faster and delivers to Amazon packaging factory doorsteps and back to town. Some people could just lift from others, who are driving with their cars. Why is this even a story about amazon? It is about people who have made choice to stay in tents.

      Amazon pay rate is same, that other factories pays.
      It is much better environment compared to food or chemical factories, where health is at risk by just being there. I did work for Amazon through agency and it did not occur to me that it would be possible to rest in a tent. I would not be happy about stinking co-worker, who is coming to work sweaty and unwashed.

    41. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if you are a Liebertarian. Because I see so many of their kind say that cutting public sector pay will improve terrible performance. So which is it, cutting pay will help or cutting pay will hurt? Don't worry, I already know the answer.

    42. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had a new client that I offered services (installing new OS on machines, apps etc.) at $80 an hour. My previous rate was around $60, but I was getting sick of the work.

      Showed him the quote, and he balked. I was happy, since I didn't want to do it anyway. At that point I learned that pricing myself out of the market was a benefit to me in certain scenarios.

    43. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

      Except the senior exec is not making 150/hr, they are making 1500/hr. 150/hr is only 300K/yr. 1500 is more like senior (actually a tad low for the really top brass) for 3M/yr. Some of these chiefs get upwards of 30M/yr or 15K/hr.

    44. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by swb · · Score: 1

      I would make the argument that the most senior executive positions which make that kind of money aren't even aspirational targets for the $15/hr worker. Believing those positions can be obtained by average workers is in the same category of believing one day you can be Superman or Han Solo. It's ludicrous to believe that reducing their compensation somehow effects the motivations of the average worker.

      I do think it's somewhat credible that if actually obtainable positions (ie, high skilled white collar worker or entry-level management in the 100k range) see huge pay cuts, it might actually influence aspirational workers, but only maybe.

      By the time most any worker is in the $15/hr category as a full-time employee and not working in a career track, they have probably lost all aspiration. The only thing which would be really motivating is that their next step up includes both a nominally large pay increase ($15 to $20) and a real improvement in working conditions which includes some respect for work/life balance and management that actually pulls off caring about and giving consideration to worker input.

      One thing that corporate management has really fucked up IMHO is that they've kind of gone backwards, pushing fascist management tactics up from the bottom of the work force into the broad middle tier of the work force. Why would anyone at the bottom be motivated to move up, outside of only the tiny increases in pay, when the job is just as awful as it ever was?

    45. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said. Makes me wonder why millenials think they're entitled to anything when the "American Dream" myth has long been shattered. Hard work does NOT guarantee, or entitle one to be successful in this world. Life isn't fair. Period.

    46. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      retard modded +5 insightful on slashdot. big fucking surprise.

    47. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      I don't get it: you open the post claiming bullshit, then spend the rest of the post vehemently agreeing.

      You have a PhD and 20 years industry experience so you expect a more interesting job that fixing computers no matter how well it pays. If that's not an example of salary being a poor motivator, then I don't know what is.

      OK, so I clearly did not phrase the post properly. How about this:

      I do fix computers, for family and for free. But if you wanted me to fix your computer the hourly rate that I would demand –somewhere in lawyer-territory – would be so far out of the range that you (the employer) would be willing to pay, that effectively no pay rate that you would be willing to offer would be high enough to entice me.

      It is the same retort, framed slightly differently. It puts the decision on the employer, not on the employee.

    48. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by lgw · · Score: 1

      Doesn't change my point - the total amount of cash the Amazon executives took home is public record, and it's entirely unimpressive. Dividing it up between hundreds of thousands of employees wouldn't make any difference.

      This is just envy and jealousy. If you look at most large corporations where the founder is no longer running things, the CEO is typically making a dollar or two per month per employee. That may add up to a nice number, but he's not impoverishing the employees to pay himself. When the founder is still involved he's typically quite rich because he owns a chunk of the company he created - hard to see that as unfair.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    49. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      I don't get it: you open the post claiming bullshit, then spend the rest of the post vehemently agreeing.

      You have a PhD and 20 years industry experience so you expect a more interesting job that fixing computers no matter how well it pays. If that's not an example of salary being a poor motivator, then I don't know what is.

      OK, so I framed my post in the wrong way, and worded it poorly. Let me put the same response another way:

      I do fix computer, for free, but only for family. The pay rate that I would demand to fix your computer would be so high – think lawyer-level rates – that you would be unwilling to pay it. The result: Your computer is not fixed.

      There. Same outcome, and still about salary, but the decision rests on the you (the employer), not on me.

    50. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that effectively no pay rate that you would be willing to offer would be high enough to entice me

      So.. beyond being comfortable, salary is not a good motivator. You are proving beelsebob's point.

    51. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      that effectively no pay rate that you would be willing to offer would be high enough to entice me

      So.. beyond being comfortable, salary is not a good motivator. You are proving beelsebob's point.

      Wrong again. The guy simply is unwilling to pay me what I am worth.

      Not everything is supply-side, you know.

    52. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that effectively no pay rate that you would be willing to offer would be high enough to entice me

      So.. beyond being comfortable, salary is not a good motivator. You are proving beelsebob's point.

      How the fuck did this retard ever get a Ph.D.?

    53. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The guy simply is unwilling to pay me what I am worth.

      By definition you aren't worth that much if no one will pay it. Trust me, you have proven beelsebob's point many times over.

    54. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cutting McDonald's exective salaries, for example, to nothing, would pay everyone in the wage sector of the company for less than an hour.

      Until you socialists fucks can get over your greed and lust for other people's money, we won't get anywhere.

    55. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That assumes an employee can actually move up into executive management. Fun fact: most executives are hired from outside. If you don't have friends in management, management experience on a resume, or a management-track degree, there is next to no 'moving up the ranks' into the executive space.

    56. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " Or at least, I don't think "

      You could have stopped there and saved electrons.

    57. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 1

      Are you telling me you'd take the position for $3 million a year, but $1.5 million just wouldn't cut it?

      Why exactly would I take $1.5 million if I could get $3 million somewhere else? If the market prices talent at X, then you're going to need to offer something worth at least X in order to attract people.

    58. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it would certainly boost employee belief that the "big guys" care about the rest of them.
      If that resulted in a 1% increase in productivity, it would be a companywide win.

    59. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't shop at Amazon for exactly that reason. I buy books on Alibri's or Abes Books. I will look at Amazon for ideas on things and to read reviews, but I won't buy a thing from them. I also don't go to Wal-mart for the same. All this 'save every last penny' consumer mentality has led to these retailers that squeeze employees and vendors.

    60. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      The guy simply is unwilling to pay me what I am worth.

      By definition you aren't worth that much if no one will pay it. Trust me, you have proven beelsebob's point many times over.

      Doesn't the market define "worth" (or "value")? It is not an absolute value, like pi, but varies with varying circumstances.

    61. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't the market define "worth" (or "value")?

      Yes. The market won't pay it so you're not worth it. I really don't know what you're arguing here. Admit beelsebob is right and be happy.

    62. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what, fuck you, you piece of shit.

    63. Re:"Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When things turn to shit and those "people at the top" are summarily executed, I'll laugh at their crying families.

  3. Brexit will ruin this paradise by Kohath · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was told the economy in that area was great and that it would all be ruined by Brexit. If the economy is so terrific, how can Amazon find any unemployed people to work at their fulfillment centers?

    1. Re: Brexit will ruin this paradise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Foreigners, of course. Which Brexit will fix, you corporate still.

    2. Re:Brexit will ruin this paradise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazon Fulfillment centers thrive on 18-26 year olds, especially ones who are JUST entering the Workforce, and this is their first job.

    3. Re:Brexit will ruin this paradise by jabuzz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No you where told that Brexit was a risk to the economy and could jeopardise the fragile recovery from the financial meltdown of 2008.

      The reality is that with our currency down the shitter since Brexit that you will be worse off as a result, probably to the tune of hundreds of pounds a year. For me personally it will be over one thousands pounds by my calculation. Fortunately I am well off enough to be able to manage. The bulk of the morons that voted for it (aka the uneducated just about managing's) will struggle.

      As a side note 60 hour weeks would be illegal in the UK, but of course Farage and Johnson both independently wealthy individuals who would not care if everyone was £2000 a year worse off, just so long as they could stick it to the EU, are rubbing their hands at repealing the working time directive.

    4. Re:Brexit will ruin this paradise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mass immigration

    5. Re:Brexit will ruin this paradise by Britz · · Score: 1

      I never heard that Britain's economy was in good shape. Only their financial industry. But I have heard that Brexit is likely to make it worse, because both the financial industry will suffer and the rest of the economy as well. The one that was already in bad shape.

      But I guess we will soon find out what exactly is going to happen, won't we?

    6. Re:Brexit will ruin this paradise by Kohath · · Score: 1

      As a side note 60 hour weeks would be illegal in the UK

      Someone wants to work 60-hour weeks at a 2-month temporary labor job for some cash. Do you want to arrest them for that? Or do you merely want to deny them that opportunity?

    7. Re:Brexit will ruin this paradise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No you where told that Brexit was a risk to the economy and could jeopardise the fragile recovery from the financial meltdown of 2008.

      The reality is that with our currency down the shitter since Brexit that you will be worse off as a result, probably to the tune of hundreds of pounds a year. For me personally it will be over one thousands pounds by my calculation. Fortunately I am well off enough to be able to manage. The bulk of the morons that voted for it (aka the uneducated just about managing's) will struggle.

      As a side note 60 hour weeks would be illegal in the UK, but of course Farage and Johnson both independently wealthy individuals who would not care if everyone was £2000 a year worse off, just so long as they could stick it to the EU, are rubbing their hands at repealing the working time directive.

      tl;dr;
      I'm a lowly peasant that loves my owners. Everything they do they tell me it's for my benefit and I love them for it. I ignore the lies and love the fact that my life is better then it would have been 100 years ago, or so they keep telling me. With the bar set that high it's always a bright and shiny day!

      Oh yeah, people that voted for brexit are "uneducated morons" lol

      Your a cliche in every sense of the word buddy.

    8. Re:Brexit will ruin this paradise by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      Yes. People who work excessive hours become dangerous to the rest of society. They might make a mistake in their job that could kill someone. For example here is a pharmacist that killed someone by working 60 hours a week, which is down right illegal

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-n...

      You say someone working in a warehouse is unlikely to kill someone from being over worked. Maybe, but what about say when they are commuting to and from work in a car on public roads. This is what can happen when you fall asleep at the wheel

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      That's 10 people dead, 82 seriously injured and serious disruption to the lives of tens of thousands of people.

      Yeah people who work over long hours are in effect sociopaths, who put a potential gain for themselves ahead of potential serious outcomes, and I have no problem of denying them that right. I would also vastly increase the penalties from causing death when overwork was a contributory factor. Minimum 10 years in jail seems appropriate.

    9. Re:Brexit will ruin this paradise by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but you sound a bit lazy. Anyone who hasn't had to knuckle under in their life and occasionally ( I say occasionally, not constantly) work long hours to get something done isn't someone I'd want to employ.
      Yes, I'm saying if that during a crunch period if you can't pull one or two weeks a year of serious OT, then you're lazy.

  4. It's sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We all know Amazon is a horrific company in regards to how it treats those at the bottom(most are) yet we will feel bad for these people for a few minutes and go right back to buying from Amazon.

  5. at least they are complying with the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they pay the minimum wage set by law, so whats the problem?

    1. Re: at least they are complying with the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real problem is the housing market in the UK isn't flexible enough to handle transient and temporary labor.

      Small towns just don't have much property to rent. Even as a high paid tech worker, you will have to wait three to four months for the right apartment in the right location to come on the market. And you are looking to pay at least £700/month.
      Usually it is three to four bedroom homes wanting £1200/month and more for rent.

    2. Re:at least they are complying with the law by mspohr · · Score: 0

      The problem is the minimum wage. This is controlled by the corporations who buy the politicians who write the laws.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
  6. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "The safety and well-being of our permanent and temporary associates is our number one priority."

    When a big stink was made about all the counterfeit products on Amazon, maintaining customer confidence that all products are legitimate was your number one priority. When 80,000 Kindle users' passwords were dumped online, the security of your customers was your number one priority. Now you claim the safety of your employees is your number one priority.

    This is all bullshit. You can only have one number one priority, and we all know that's MAKING MONEY.

    1. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent post. Their seeming inability or unwillingness to truly tackle the counterfeit goods problem has changed Amazon from my go-to retailer for almost everything to a site I actually try to avoid visiting (and have even paid more elsewhere to do so)

    2. Re:Bullshit by rmdingler · · Score: 2

      "The safety and well-being of our permanent and temporary associates is our number one priority."

      When a big stink was made about all the counterfeit products on Amazon, maintaining customer confidence that all products are legitimate was your number one priority. When 80,000 Kindle users' passwords were dumped online, the security of your customers was your number one priority. Now you claim the safety of your employees is your number one priority.

      This is all bullshit. You can only have one number one priority, and we all know that's MAKING MONEY.

      You can only have one #1 priority. At a time. So, if these are nonsimultaneous examples, there is fallacy in your logic.

      But that last point, about a malevolently greedy, publicly traded corporation being motivated by profit-seeking... well, that's just reprehensible.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    3. Re:Bullshit by EmagGeek · · Score: 2

      "You can only have one number one priority"

      You've never been an engineer, have you?

    4. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, and the priorities came from marketing. Ranked. The ranking changed weekly so we stopped paying attention.

    5. Re:Bullshit by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Worth mentioning that NewEgg does a good job being a customer friendly site. I've been happy with them a lot.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The welfare of our staff is our #1 priority for 1ms on 29 February.

    7. Re:Bullshit by oobayly · · Score: 1

      I think by definition "You can only have one number one priority"

    8. Re:Bullshit by geekmux · · Score: 2

      "The safety and well-being of our permanent and temporary associates is our number one priority."

      When a big stink was made about all the counterfeit products on Amazon, maintaining customer confidence that all products are legitimate was your number one priority. When 80,000 Kindle users' passwords were dumped online, the security of your customers was your number one priority. Now you claim the safety of your employees is your number one priority.

      This is all bullshit. You can only have one number one priority, and we all know that's MAKING MONEY.

      Well, you do have to admit that PR campaigning of utter bullshit is at least their number two priority...

    9. Re:Bullshit by geekmux · · Score: 1

      You can only have one #1 priority. At a time. So, if these are nonsimultaneous examples, there is fallacy in your logic.

      Did Amazon actually do something other than pay "number one" lip service for all examples provided? There is fallacy across their entire bullshit-riddled PR division, so let's see what happens with employees living in tents.

      But that last point, about a malevolently greedy, publicly traded corporation being motivated by profit-seeking... well, that's just reprehensible.

      The key word here is malevolent, which is the reason that chasm between the slave labor working class and the executive class continues to grow and will never be bridged. Companies don't give a shit about offering you a path to a bigger and better job. They don't even give a shit if you leave because of it. In short, malevolence has driven greed to unprecedented levels.

      Demand for minimum wage goes up? Corporations respond with hiring robots to replace humans. CEOs making 500x more than the average warehouse worker. "Go to college to succeed", as young people can't even find a job that allows them to attend college. That chasm between the 99% and the 1% isn't fucking shrinking...

    10. Re:Bullshit by msauve · · Score: 1

      "You can only have one number one priority"

      When I'm called to action, #2 is a higher priority than #1.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    11. Re:Bullshit by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      Any engineering manager will tell you that you can have an infinite number of number one priorities.

    12. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every place I have ever worked, all priorities do come ranked, and that rank is #1.

      All projects are priority 1, to say nothing of the requirement that it be done ahead of schedule, and below budget.

      The minimum is 15 pieces of flare, but the expectation is 47 pieces of flare, and you are judged against the expectation, not the minimum.

  7. Camping in a tent behind work? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 5, Funny

    No True Scotsman would use a tent... He'd cuddle up with some sheep behind the nearest hedge and wait it out...

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    1. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by quenda · · Score: 1

      No True Scotsman would use a tent... He'd cuddle up with some sheep

      Thats a phallusy.

    2. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      you can't use a stranger's sheep, you don't know what partner's they've had

    3. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your pun has engorged me.

    4. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Funny

      No True Scotsman would use a tent

      A tent!?! Luxury!

      When I was a lad, we lived in a cardboard box, at the side of the road . . .

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    5. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      A true Scotsman is going to bring one or two into the tent to keep warm.

      You thought that sound was bagpipes! lol

    6. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      That explains the Scottish national motto, Wha daur meddle wi me sheep?

    7. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Or Nemo ovis impune lacessit in Latin.

    8. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      When I was a lad, we lived in a cardboard box, at the side of the road . . .

      Big deal. I still live in a van, down by the river.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re: Camping in a tent behind work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They will be bagpipes in a few months.

    10. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      You're thinking of the Welsh.

    11. Re: Camping in a tent behind work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You had a box !!!
      Our dad....

    12. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by iggymanz · · Score: 4, Funny

      that's funny, all the latin speaking people I know are into altar boys not sheep

    13. Re: Camping in a tent behind work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Altar boys and sheep are the same thing. They both get fleeced. And unlucky ones get fucked.

    14. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. He would move to England where my taxes would pay for his housing/heroin allowance.

    15. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that's the Welsh. Scots are immune to the cold; The tents are there just to stop them being woken up by the hailstones and galeforce winds.

    16. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You are welcome on my lawn.

      Vans don't have lawns. I call BS on your lawn.

    17. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      He'd live in the body cavities of a decomposing cow.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    18. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I was a lad, we lived in a cardboard box, at the side of the road . . .

      Big deal. I still live in a van, down by the river.

      darn snobs with their water front property...

    19. Re:Camping in a tent behind work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No True Scotsman would use a tent

      A tent!?! Luxury!

      When I was a lad, we lived in a cardboard box, at the side of the road . . .

      Well, at least you had a cardboard box...

  8. It says they get paid minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And they're working 60 hours a week.

    If 60 hours a week at minimum wage is truly not enough to live on without needing to sleep in a tent, then maybe that country should consider raising the minimum wage. Otherwise, this is just a couple of people trying to save some extra money.

    1. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2, Informative

      The highest minimum wage in Scotland is 7.20/hour is you are 25 or over, whereas the Living Wage is 8.25/hour.

      For the sake of argument let's say these folks are being paid the Living Wage. 8.25 X 60 = 495. If you get paid every other week that is 990 gross pay.

      Let's assume these people are working full-time so 26 paychecks X 990 = 25,740. Based on this tax rate guide that means they pay a 20% tax on their wages. However, they get the first 10,600 as a personal allowance. So, 20% of 15,140 (25,740-10,600) = 3,028. Subtracting everything out leaves 12,112. Add in the 10,600 and you get 22,712 to live on (assuming my math is correct).

      All of the above is assuming Amazon uses the highest possible minimum wage rate. If they use the lower value of 7.20 then the take home pay gets even smaller. Which now brings us to conclusion: either the prices for a flat in Scotland are exceptionally low, as is everything else, or trying to live on a minimum wage in Scotland is nowhere near a comfortable living. At 500/month, rent will consume 26.4% of your earnings.

      Once you start adding in food, clothes, any form of entertainment (alcohol most likely), not to mention electricity, heating (if separate from electricity), your monthly phone bill, transportation costs and so on, you're not really left with much to be considered comfortable.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    2. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who said a minimum wage workers life had to be comfortable?

      Everyone has a chance to go to school, get good grades, and strive for a career that's not a factory worker. We all make decisions in life, and must deal with them.

      That said, a factory worker should not have to sleep in the woods...but no, their lives are never going to be comfortable. They can have a warm place to sleep, and warm food, and a couple vices...but that's about it. Not everyone gets to live the good life.

    3. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by ghoul · · Score: 3, Interesting

      26.5% of salary as rent and you are complaining? Try living in the Bay area. Here is a sample Budget

      $125000 a year for a mid level person with a family.
      =$10500 a month Gross
      =$9500 a month after Social security and Medicare
      =$8800 a month after federal taxes
      =$8000 a month after California taxes and SDi
      =$7000 a month after Health Insurance premiums for a family of 4
      =$6000 a month after 401K (retirement contribution as there are no pensions)
      =$6000 a month take home
      =$3000 a month after rent (Rent for a crappy 2 Bedroom apt is $3000 and can go all the way upto $6000 in silicon valley)
      =$2500 a month after utilities (no the 3000 a month does not include utilities or renters insurance)
      =$2000 a month after Car payments,Insurance and Gas
      Now family of 4 eating 3 times a day for 30 days a month = 360 meals. Assuming a $5 per person/meal =$1800
      =$200 a month after food
      With that $200 you have to buy school supplies, car repairs, any other emergency.
      Pretty much the only entertainment you can afford is TV and a little eating out once in a while.
      No savings for childrens college
      No savings for replacing car when it breaks down so next car will also have to be on loan
      No savings for saving a downpayment to actually buy a house
      No savings for if you lose your job. Plus if you are working on a visa you wont get unemployment even though you pay into Social Security.
      No scope for signing up children to extra classes so if your public school is messing up they are screwed as you cant pay for college. Their only hope is scholarships
      No scope for getting a divorce if your marriage is not working out as you cannot afford to pay alimony, child support and rent on 2 places.

      Do note 50% of take home goes to rent and another 10% to utilities so the basic cost of keeping a roof over your head is 60% of take home.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    4. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then move.

    5. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't know if they're getting paid minimum wage per hour, TFA says that they're working 60 hours a week and getting paid minimum wage a week, dos this mean that they're working 60 hours but only making the weekly minimum?

    6. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1

      Have you considered moving? $125K for a job doesn't sound THAT high, and surely you can make that in other cities where the cost of living is either lower or you could get a mansion for that much cost.

      Hell, you could even take an income hit and still end up with more left over at the end of the month.

      Also noting, $125K a year is not very much to raise a family. If both parents work, I would expect closer to $200K even in my area, where it is a LOT cheaper to live that SF.

      --
      Sig for hire.
    7. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are forgetting national insurance (11% over £7000) and pension auto enrolment (1% pre tax, but on 100% of wages)

    8. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      Thank you. I wasn't sure about the insurance part. I thought the employer was the one who paid that, and I completely missed the pension portion.

      Adding those in makes it even worse.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    9. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by amacide · · Score: 1

      $125K for a job doesn't sound THAT high.

      Maybe not... yet I'm certain there's billions of people who would disagree with you..........

    10. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      Sounds pretty good to me...

    11. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $15 per person/day for meals? You should be able to do it easily for under $10 a head/day. Last night I cooked a nutritious dinner for 5 for about $9 total in only 30 minutes - the kids ate it up and wanted more! Breakfast costs $2 tops and takes five minutes to throw together. Lunch is often leftovers from dinner and snacks are home-made cookies, muffins or a piece of fruit or some trail mix (bought in bulk).

      Plus you're assuming a single-income family whereas most families are dual-income these days. This isn't to say that I don't agree with you that it's ridiculously expensive to live here - the cost of housing is obscene!

    12. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      50% of take home goes to rent

      Sounds like the good old Invisible Hand isn't working too well there.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    13. Re: It says they get paid minimum wage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and the wife?

  9. Oversimplification by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    People are jumping past the questions as to whether the economy is worse now than in the past and why, to whether Amazon and other companies are paying what they should.

    1. Re:Oversimplification by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      If true, then I applaud them for not comparing apples to oranges.
      I'm highly skeptical though. Surely if a person cares about both they'll mix and muddle them all together! Intentionally.

    2. Re:Oversimplification by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      If the economy is worse now, then Amazon and other companies may be more justified in paying less. The people talking about this aren't really bringing up the situation these companies find themselves in.

  10. Lows in the 30s? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Dang, I wish I could live where the lows were in the 30s. That's downright tropical!

    1. Re:Lows in the 30s? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A reminder that the US is still using fahreinheit to measure temperature, and at this point I think they are incapable of changing.

      32 F = 0 C, aka freezing point for water.

    2. Re:Lows in the 30s? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck is a fahrenheit?

    3. Re:Lows in the 30s? by currently_awake · · Score: 2

      America still uses the old pre-metric measurements, that's not in Celsius. He actually meant -2C, a rather nice winter temperature if you can avoid the ice storms and black ice.

    4. Re:Lows in the 30s? by Fly+Swatter · · Score: 2

      The original linked article only says 'bitterly cold', which depending on the person could be anything below room temperature. The slashdot summary may have looked at the area weather forecast, and says lows INTO the 30s, which could just mean 39F. Then you have a poster reminding readers that 32F = 0C, now we hit freezing. The latest number thrown out is -2C (around 28F), now it's below freezing.

      Isn't it fun how numbers change so quickly?

    5. Re:Lows in the 30s? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      physicist Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit (1686–1736) invented the mercury in glass thermometer. The lived most of his life in the Dutch Republic. Aren't you glad you asked?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    6. Re:Lows in the 30s? by tomhath · · Score: 1

      0 C, aka freezing point for water.

      Only under one very specific set of conditions. It's just an arbitrary starting point, same as 0 F (do you even know what that is based on?)

  11. well DUH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Amazon is full of forrest dwellers.

    At least they can wear a kilt rather than a grass codpiece and they haven't yet been issued with blowguns so they can hunt for their own food.

    Make a great David Attenborough piece..... the lost celts in the Amazon(warehouse).

  12. Union lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is typical union lies. We don't charge employees for shuttle service, it is free and always has been.

  13. Is this a straman argument by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    Or moving the goal post? Anyone want to weigh in on exactly where the bullshit meter this falls?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Is this a straman argument by Kohath · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The whole story is bullshit whining about nothing, pushing a political agenda by pretending any of this is news. So yeah, all the talk about it spikes the bullshit meter.

    2. Re:Is this a straman argument by JoeyRox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's neither strawman nor bullshit. If individuals are permitted to control their costs by selecting the lowest-priced goods and services available to them then why would a corporation not be permitted to do the same?

    3. Re:Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because corporations have more power than individuals. The playing field is far from even, and the rules should reflect that.

    4. Re:Is this a straman argument by Sir+Holo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's neither strawman nor bullshit. If individuals are permitted to control their costs by selecting the lowest-priced goods and services available to them then why would a corporation not be permitted to do the same?

      Ask any Irish friend you have about the "Penny Walls" in Ireland, and you'll have your answer.

    5. Re:Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People are more important than corporations. People deserve due care while corporations do not.

    6. Re: Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because of the asymmetry in levels of influence. Don't you remember the 19th-century industrialization process and the civic problems it spawned I until proper worker protection, unions etc were invented? Geez, don't you guys learn anythingnin school over there?

    7. Re: Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      take your point out 20 years. With ai and automation how do you see the economy working? How healthy do you see the middle class? O yea, the 10 million truck drivers don't need good jobs, nothing bad will happen at that point. I love the argument where people say that low wage jobs will be lost, but in their place people will get more skilled higher paying jobs. Maybe a tiny fraction, but companies automate to cut costs, they're not going to automate so that they can pay more money towards salaries. And what happens to the gdp when the middle class suddenly disappears? If people don't become more humble and realize that if you have a good job, youre lucky not amazingly deserving because you're so smart. I know I don't work hard for the stupid amount of money they throw at me, I've actually seen the other side and there is no way I work any where close to as hard as even some McDonald's employee. I feel embarrassed to be human.. there are so many greedy selfish people on this earth. I don't understand how people can do things like pass by homeless people without giving him a dime. Try giving the guy a 100 so they can feed themselves for a month or even just $20, you might even feel good for not being a selfish animal.

    8. Re: Is this a straman argument by JoeyRox · · Score: 1

      Take your point back 20 to 100 years. The level of wealth we enjoy today is due to productivity increases from innovation and technology. Those changes hurt people then the same as they do now yet here we are enjoying the spoils of that change as a society in whole. Why would it be beneficial to declare that no more automation should be allowed from this point forward? What if someone did that 30 years ago?

    9. Re:Is this a straman argument by JoeyRox · · Score: 2

      Corporations are people. And some corporations are very small - how large does a corporation have to be before we arbitrarily say that corporations no longer deserve due care?

    10. Re:Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You, Sir, are an asshole.

    11. Re: Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Industrialization didn't spawn ANY problems, it just made the ones that were universal under feudalism fully visible, recorded them, and misattributed them to industrialism. Life working in a factory was hard, but life working on a farm was much, MUCH harder. Even the pollution was worse on the farms thanks to a near total lack of sanitation at the time.

      Worker protections and unions came after the fact that worker conditions had improved. Only the very first unions did anything worthwhile in forcing some criminal factory owners to stop violating the law by abusing workers. Once they saw that they could do things by working together, they became a cudgel and a control mechanism which eventually strangled industry out of the US.

    12. Re:Is this a straman argument by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      This is why it is a huge problem that the government no longer looks out for people. It is government that is supposed to find a balance.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    13. Re: Is this a straman argument by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I laugh every time someone compares to 100 years ago. 100 years ago did didn't make sense to do anything overseas, and people didn't want to take advantage of desperate labor in oppressive countries any way because there was pride for our way of life. These says everything is done over seas. 100 years ago there was something local that opened up, today there will be nothing.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    14. Re: Is this a straman argument by JoeyRox · · Score: 1

      You mean how we took advantage of Chinese labor for the past 30 years. I wonder how that's worked out for the Chinese people.

    15. Re: Is this a straman argument by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Lots of people don't remember the 19th century.

    16. Re: Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give a man fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set him on fire, and he'll be warm for life.

    17. Re: Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe in the US you're under the delusion that corporations are people, but then you've also just put a shrieking orange pumpkin in charge, so you'll excuse the rest of the world from not taking you seriously.

    18. Re: Is this a straman argument by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      " The level of wealth we enjoy today is due to our exporting misery onto the third world for the profits of a few at the top and cheap stuff for the first world"...FTFY.

      See Chinese cancer cities,African kids sucking plastic smoke scraping our e-waste, boats filled with toxic waste sunk off the coast of Somalia, etc. Really easy to "enjoy this level of wealth" when you make all the actual costs of it someone else's problem. But hey its just poor people, who cares if they get cancer and have to live in our filth...right?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    19. Re: Is this a straman argument by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Chinese (and in fact most other) immigrants were treated poorly yes, but that pales in comparison to the effect of shipping everything to their country to do the work.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    20. Re: Is this a straman argument by JoeyRox · · Score: 1

      Ever been to an inner city in the USA?

    21. Re:Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Corporations are people.

      This was one of Scalia's delirious constitutional "theories", probably as a result of drugs, alcohol and prostitutes. Luckily, he died.

      Hopefully the same will happen to you too, and the sooner the better. Neoliberal sociopaths like you are a cancer of mankind, you shouldn't be allowed to waste oxygen anymore, let alone to spread your genes through reproduction.

      I'd love to think you're just a troll, but you seem to be too stupid to be one.

    22. Re: Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Industrialisation didn't cause any problems? I have a shit-tonne of dead craftsmen who are queuing up to disagree with you here. To put this into perspective, many of the skills that today I would be willing to pay a lot of money to have a piece crafted no longer exist. Perhaps we should say mass production rather than industrialisation, the problem is that people choose cheap crap over moderately expensive quality because they are not informed experts and cannot tell the difference until its too late. Yes, standardisation was a good thing but even the high end furniture we get today is junk not fit for firewood.

    23. Re:Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently, the larger a corporation gets the more likely it deserves care. "Too big to fail" and all that.

    24. Re:Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No bullshit. If you buy from Amazon you're part of the problem. Cheap prices come with a combination of economies of scale and dirt cheap overhead.

      Try hitting the goalposts next time.

    25. Re:Is this a straman argument by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Corporations are people. And some corporations are very small - how large does a corporation have to be before we arbitrarily say that corporations no longer deserve due care?

      No, corporations are composed of people. And that's where a line should be drawn. If a corporation (CEO, President, or Board) wants to do something, fine...those individuals should be accountable in every sense, including doing jail time if the corporation fucks up. Care to count how many Wall St. bankers have gone to jail after the housing crisis? Corporations also wield undo influence because they can hire lobbyists that individuals simply can't afford. And, because of that, much of government doesn't do the will of the people, it does the will of their corporate benefactors. This is where SCOTUS fucked up when equated corporate "speech" as a right.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    26. Re:Is this a straman argument by JoeyRox · · Score: 1

      Saying a corporation is composed of people is like saying a herd is composed of animals. The former doesn't exist without the latter. A corporation is not some inanimate entity - it's only people.

    27. Re: Is this a straman argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are exactly right. The issue is that the safety and well-being of their workers is not their highest priority. Their highest priority is increasing shareholder value, and that is as it should be. I'm not as familiar with Ireland, but in the U.S., the issue is the work that's been done by government, under the control of big business, to hinder the influence of unions and their ability to organize. That has to change. Here, they have taught the sheeple to despise unions, when in fact that's the only group that has the interests of employee as their first priority, and it takes an organized labor force to counter the imbalance that the corporations have.

    28. Re: Is this a straman argument by Talderas · · Score: 1

      I would say that there are literally only three people would could remember the 19th century if you believe infants and fetuses can remember things.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  14. POTUS Trump will MAGA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    POTUS Trump will fix this. Excessive regulation is what is causing the problem, including the fact that they have to pay a "minimum" wage. By eliminating the minimum wage, the workers will compete to do the job, and this will weed out those unsuited to the task.

    Also, all this excessive health insurance, workplace safety crap has to go.

    Employees can purchase their own health and safety gear, and claim it on their taxes, a win-win-win situation.

    POTUS Trump and the Republican party will MAGA!

    1. Re:POTUS Trump will MAGA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, Scotland's gonna be pissed when they find out Trump is running their country, too.

    2. Re:POTUS Trump will MAGA by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      "POTUS Trump will fix this."

      By not letting Amazon Scotland build a warehouse near any of his golf courses?

    3. Re:POTUS Trump will MAGA by Falos · · Score: 1

      They already weed. They intentionally squeeze everything out of their fodder, because there's plenty more desperate proles lined up outside. Unreasonable demands and conditions are optimal for this scenario, ignore turnover. The margin is happy.

      Minimum wage is even more fragile. Try to pressure Amazon into paying a livable salary and they'll just proportionately shift towards automation. Or find a country of even more desperate peasants. Bleeding GDP doesn't matter, the margin is happy.

    4. Re:POTUS Trump will MAGA by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Trump's policies won't touch Scotland. He can't even get rid of the windmills that are an eyesore from his golf course(s).

    5. Re:POTUS Trump will MAGA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am sure the guy who runs Amazon who contributes heavily to the DNC and owns the Washington Post will be right on virtual signaling that the wage should be higher.

  15. Economic fallacy by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 5, Interesting

    if you're not paid enough, find another job!

    A 2nd-order economic fallacy: "There are an infinite number of jobs".

    It is a derivative of the base, first order fallacy: "infinite consumption".

    We will always have infinite consumption because of ever increasing population (see: Malthus) and ever increasing wants and needs. No matter how much food or shelter you have, you will always want more. It's basic human nature.

    Infinite consumption demands infinite production, which necessarily requires infinite labor.

    If you're not paid enough, go find another job!

    It's not as if they are in limited supply...

    1. Re:Economic fallacy by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      With automation we're faced with a choice: share their production, or let the poor... go away to wherever people go when all the land is owned and people aren't allowed to subsist anywhere. Wherever that is.

      That is the choice, Star Trek, or a small number of people living in defended bubble cities with police that go out and make sure any surviving commoners aren't trying to build homes or farms on any of the land.

      Increasing productivity is only "good" for most people if society modifies the economic formula in some way in response to efficiency gains. In Europe they're committed to simply working less hours per worker as a solution. I don't really care which formula is modified, but lets do respond somewhere in the system!

    2. Re:Economic fallacy by Namarrgon · · Score: 1

      The whoosh is strong with this one.

      It always amazes me how some are so astoundingly oblivious that they can post "just find another job!", as if it might never have even occurred to the person to consider something different. It invariably never seems to occur to them that, shitty as that person's job is, if they're still doing it then all the other options must be even worse.

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    3. Re:Economic fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in additio, you forgot that the root fallacy is: false dilemma
      in this usage it is "be quiet about your conditions OR find another job"

    4. Re:Economic fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Infinite consumption demands infinite production ...

      No; Infinite consumption demands infinite resources: There's no need for production to be infinite and the economies of scale factor means it won't be. By keeping the focus on something that can be forced, production, one can pretend that production can be as large as we like and its relationship to labour is linear. In truth, because wages and caught fish are finite, the buying (wages) and selling (of fish) is limited.

      ... infinite labor.

      People continue to note that previous technology revolutions didn't cause mass unemployment; that's because people found something else to consume. Technology has reached the point that it does not create more products for people to consume (*) and thus will not create substantial quantities of jobs in the future.

      (*) eg. It's more likely that robot cars will be rented by the hour (because people don't need a car while sleeping or working) and thus people will tend to own 0 cars because of technology.

    5. Re:Economic fallacy by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      Look I am turning quite conservative myself after studying economics. However, unlimited consumption is a fallacy. THe Great Depression proved this as economists at the time assumed people would simply lower their salaries and products would deflate and people would then buy again and all would go up and be good soon.

      That didn't happen as the invisible hand amplified the problem where people and business consumed less and cut back which caused them to lay off workers who in turn cut back in a horrible vicious cycle waiting on the other to spend first.

      It doesn't matter how much you value your labor back in 1931. Even if you worked for $0 no factory wanted to produce more as there were no spenders for their unsold products on shelves. Make it cheaper? Yeah, unless it is food no one would buy without a job or had one but with economic uncertainty.

      Human nature responds to fear too and not just wanting to outdo the other guy. Jobs are more limited now thanks to automation and cheap outsourcing in expensive first world countries. That is a fact and is how Brexit and Donald Trump came to power. Consider ourselves lucky we have nice white collar jobs. Those who are not as bright or made poor choices are kind of screwed now as the jobs they once did are gone.

    6. Re:Economic fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The usual, perhaps subconscious, argument against that is that the poor person isn't smart enough to realize that the options that seem worse to him are actually better. Or that they're too lazy to look for the other options. There is, as with most stereotypes, a kernel of truth - people are creatures of habit, and tend to stick with things longer than they ought to (obligatory XKCD).

      But it's still a pretty arrogant and often inaccurate way of looking at things. In this case, it's unlikely that the Scottish employee has been with Amazon for 20 years, so that Amazon is all that he can imagine working for.

    7. Re: Economic fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice theory. Too bad it doesn't match the experiment, but entertaining none the less.

    8. Re:Economic fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Find another job is bullshit - at least in the U.S.A because so much shit is tied up with jobs. Like Healthcare. Anyone who believes that a free market of talent is the best solution for individuals should support universal healthcare, and a basic safety net. You put those two things in place, and suddenly you will have unleashed piles of innovation. Just think how many people you know who are in jobs just to keep benefits and supply basic food and housing.

      I'd also argue that the white collar folks are in for a shock. When your plumbing blocks up, or your boiler craps out you need a plumber. You need a plumber, not want a plumber.

      White collar jobs are inherently far easier to automate away than many blue collar jobs. For a starter, the inputs and outputs are often just data. Most of that data is already digitally stored. It's way way easier to apply some fancy A.I. to that stuff than to build a robot that's as flexible, adaptable and capable as a competent human plumber.

    9. Re:Economic fallacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet many illegals work. guess you yanks think you're above certain kinds of work, and therein lies your problem. good luck.

  16. Sounds sinister by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This sounds quite sinister:
    "The safety and well-being of our ... temporary associates is our number one priority."

  17. Dunfermline...Dunfermline by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

    I remember now - the birthplace of Andrew Carnegie!

    1. Re:Dunfermline...Dunfermline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember now - the birthplace of Andrew Carnegie!

      That's the place.
      Right next door to the birthplace of Adam Smith. (Kirkaldy)

    2. Re:Dunfermline...Dunfermline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and their all-boy orchestra.

  18. Good luck by rsilvergun · · Score: 1, Insightful

    with that. This is only going to get worse too. One of the big things companies have been waiting for is the opportunity to bring the trillions of dollars they've had socked away in tax havens back into the global market without all those pesky taxes. The US, and specifically Obama, have been blocking this. Welp, we done just f'd that up. And what are they planning to do with all that money? Mergers and Acquisitions. Lots of 'em. Expect the amount of competition to drop like a rock.

    Now, in the face of all that, what you _you_ going to do? You, Mishotaki. What, specifically will you do when there's nowhere else to buy bread except Amazon and it's $10, $20 a loaf? Maybe when you finally don't have enough to eat, maybe when it's you in one of those tents you'll finally wake up. But ya know what, by then it'll be too late. You'll be too busy surviving to do anything about it. You won't even have time and money to waste posting drek to /. None of us will.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Good luck by deadwill69 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I so wish I had mod points. I wish more people would realize that jobs have become a zero sum game to the corps.

    2. Re:Good luck by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      If you're going to worry about silly inanities like "what are you going to do," then in the short term you should consider: The stock market is shooting up up up in a situation where economists are predicting gloom. What does that mean? That means there is going to be a boom before the bust, baby!

      Get ready, history's biggest bubble is coming! The billionaires are running the show. Find a way to dip a cup in, and then get out and keep your little pile of loot for the dark days ahead.

  19. Re: "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little by fermion · · Score: 0
    I mean anyone who eats fast food on a regular basis should be ashamed. Our economy in the US is currently based on paying unskilled workers almost nothing, and scheduling them so they cannot work elsewhere. Retail is likely worse then Amazon because you only get to work 25 random hours every week.

    The solution if anyone actually cared is $15 an hour minimum wage and paying a quarter more for your hamburger or $20 more in Amazon prime.

    I suppose we should drive down to the Walmart and waste gas and all the bills to run the big box store and buy from those oppressed workers. We really should just buy from the farmers market and arts and crafts festival.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  20. 'No such thing as free shipping' by Vegan+Cyclist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Came across an article (https://www.fastcompany.com/3061686/free-shipping-is-a-lie) a few weeks ago that spells out part of the problem: Amazon loses around 45% of all shipping costs. They can take part of the hit because they have so much volume, but it also has to be paid for somewhere...and how they treat their staff is an obvious area in this instance.

    Full disclosure: I also work for an online shop, and we struggle with the idea of 'free shipping'. Since we deal with food, our margins are already low, plus we ship a lot of refrigerated items, so a lot need expedited delivery. In the US it's not so bad (seems like $8 will get many packages just about anywhere in 2 days), but here in Canada, shipping fees are brutal -- even shipping in our own city is a minimum of about $10 -- and no doubt most people expect free shipping as well. As the article points out: it's just not sustainable. 'Free shipping' fees are paid elsewhere down the line.

    1. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Amazon's (and everyone else's, in the past few years) free shipping isn't free for Amazon. You should have already known that.

      But the part you probably didn't know is how they brought the cost of shipping down to make it an effective loss-leader.

      This is where you learn about "SmartPost". SmartPost is a FedEx shipping priority. Most people have never heard of it. It's not a public brand that FedEx makes available to everyone. Basically, how it works is that FedEx bills according to a very rough volume. Pallets, truckloads, or something else non-granular. If I had to guess, it's pallets. Now, that's not where the savings is, or where you, the end user actually gets the benefit. That part is just where Amazon (among others) gets some cost savings that amounts to enough to make "free" shipping a thing.

      FedEx gets some cost savings too. They don't actually ship anything in SmartPost. They handle the freight and palletize it, then load the trailers. Then they contract out to other over-the-road trucking and logistics companies to actually deliver the freight from their docks to the "DDU" locations.

      So these OTR carriers take a cut too. But some of those OTR logistics companies don't actually run fleets of their own, either. Some of them simply wrangle data exchanges, oversee sorting and cross-docking, and subcontract the actual shipping to small long-haul trucking companies (a.k.a. "linehaulers"). So the linehaulers take another cut.

      But then FedEx has an arrangement with the USPS to handle the actual delivery. The "DDU" locations are actually just post offices. The palletized freight gets dropped at the post office, where the USPS employees break down the pallet, sort it onto postal routes, and deliver the freight.

      This final step is where you, the public, get some kickback benefits. The payments from FedEx to the USPS are substantial. This makes your postal rate for other things stay low. Notice how the price of stamps went from $0.25 prior to 1991 up to $0.49 in 2014? And then how in April 2016, it went back down to $0.47? That's the first postage decrease since 1919. You can thank FedEx and Amazon for that. The USPS is suddenly making serious bank from SmartPost. Now, a few years in, UPS has a similar arrangement, Amazon isn't the only one doing the "free shipping" loss-leader, and the USPS is rolling in the dough. The hand-wringing and fear of a few years ago when the postal service was "in financial trouble" are gone, and for good reason.

      So not only do you get stuff from Amazon with no additional shipping charges tacked onto your order, you also get lower first-class postage rates. This is the proverbial "win-win-win".

    2. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shipping companies DO NOT give away their transport services for free, to anyone, for any reason.
      Shipping may not be a line item to *you* the customer.
      But it *IS* a line item to Amazon and everyone else.
      It's all just wrapped up in the item price you see quoted on your screen.
      Smaller places 'struggle' to keep up simply because their volume, automation are lower and other costs are higher than the big guys.
      NOT because there's some magical free shipping somewhere.
      NOTHING IS EVER FREE, unless you both steal it, and never buy anything again because theft raises your long term costs.

    3. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      but here in Canada, shipping fees are brutal -- even shipping in our own city is a minimum of about $10

      That's costly. Have you looked into getting your own refrigerated van and driver?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    4. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by guruevi · · Score: 2

      There is no such thing as "free shipping". You can clearly see it on Amazon: an item through Amazon Prime: $11, from a 3rd party: $7 + $4 shipping. Free shipping is a marketing technique, you'd rather go with the $11 with free shipping than the $7 with $4 shipping.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    5. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      That article is idiotically stupid.

      "For many online shops, the cost of a free shipment is either folded into the prices for items or funded by investors. "

      Funded by INVESTORS? Seriously, how could a company operate more than about 15 minutes if its capital investment was being spent on SHIPPING.

      It shouldn't be news to anyone: SHIPPING ISN'T ACTUALLY EVER FREE.
      It's just that shipping costs don't increase proportionally to purchase prices.
      Here's how it works when they say "if you buy more than $50 shipping is free"
      Buy item for $10, of which $4 is profit. Costs about $8 to ship.
      Buy FIVE of them for $50, $20 is profit. Shipping is only maybe $12. So if they throw in free shipping, sure, the retailer only makes $8 profit (instead of $20) but a) their sales quintuple (which is more of a metric companies are measured by), b) more importantly, they've generated goodwill with the customer, c) possibly gained a sale because the final perceived cost-per-item for the customer isn't $18, it's $10..

      TiA: I work in logistics for a large manufacturer.

      --
      -Styopa
    6. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by DogDude · · Score: 1

      (which is more of a metric companies are measured by)

      And there's the rub. Stupid people measure a company by sales. Unfortunately, most people are stupid, hence companies like Amazon's valuation via the stock market. Any moron can sell a $1 bill for $0.90. That's essentially what all of these "e-commerce" companies are doing. There's no value to that (or there shouldn't be).

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    7. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Came across an article (https://www.fastcompany.com/3061686/free-shipping-is-a-lie) a few weeks ago that spells out part of the problem: Amazon loses around 45% of all shipping costs. They can take part of the hit because they have so much volume, but it also has to be paid for somewhere...and how they treat their staff is an obvious area in this instance.

      Full disclosure: I also work for an online shop, and we struggle with the idea of 'free shipping'. Since we deal with food, our margins are already low, plus we ship a lot of refrigerated items, so a lot need expedited delivery. In the US it's not so bad (seems like $8 will get many packages just about anywhere in 2 days), but here in Canada, shipping fees are brutal -- even shipping in our own city is a minimum of about $10 -- and no doubt most people expect free shipping as well. As the article points out: it's just not sustainable. 'Free shipping' fees are paid elsewhere down the line.

      If you're charging the same price as a brick and mortar isn't the fact that you don't run a storefront where the savings comes in?

    8. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      full disclosure. you're getting screwed by your common carrier. Amazon, isn't. particularly with the Chinese, and US government BOTH subsidizing Chinese transportation costs.

    9. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

      Amazon is profitable FYI. Any moron that can sell a $1 bill for $0.90 and still profit out of it, is alright by me.

    10. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by DogDude · · Score: 1

      They're not profitable from selling stuff, that's for sure. Never have been, and probably never will be.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    11. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by Vegan+Cyclist · · Score: 1

      We have two free pick-up locations within the city, so only have a handful of in-city deliveries a month, it's not an issue. I just gave that as an example - the rest of the province is about $12, and the next province over (Alberta) is in the $15 range, for the very same package.

    12. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by Vegan+Cyclist · · Score: 1

      It's a bit complicated - there actually is a storefront where we operate out of, and we'll soon be taking it over as well, so we'll be both brick and mortar and online. It would still be tight even if we were just a warehouse, margins for packaged food items are low, typically in the 20% range, so if a refrigerated order needs $40 to cover shipping, you can see how much needs to be sold. Also, margins shrink further as we try to be competitive with much larger chains who carry some of the same products, and carry much more volume.

      We're doing pretty well all-said, but the free-shipping thing is a pretty big hurdle in our market. (You care barely find anyone in Canada who ships refrigerated items.)

    13. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

      No, they are and will be.

    14. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      The marketing technique equivalence breaks down with returns. Many sellers won't refund shipping fees or pay return shipping - "free" shipping removes this obstacle to returns. I'm willing to pay quite a bit more for "free" shipping if I think a return is possible.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    15. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      My friend who fancies himself a power investor claims that Amazon makes a ton of money from cloud services. They keep plowing this windfall into their retail infrastructure despite it being a money losing venture. Their strategy is allegedly to make it so damn big that eventually it will be profitable.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    16. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Not really, in most if not all cases, you're still on the hook for paying for shipping the return and you'll have to pay a 'processing fee'.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    17. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      My friend who fancies himself a power investor claims that Amazon makes a ton of money from cloud services. They keep plowing this windfall into their retail infrastructure despite it being a money losing venture. Their strategy is allegedly to make it so damn big that eventually it will be profitable.

      The bigger you are, the slimmer your margins can be, and therefore the lower your prices, and therefore people choose you instead of competitors and so you keep growing.

      It's not rocket science, but as long as you can keep funding the business while it's not actually making much profit, it will work in the long run, and you will have a nice monopoly.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    18. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      I had a different experience than you did. I was a Prime member for a year and bought a lot of stuff, made a handful of returns, perhaps 6. They were all for items that were significantly not as advertised, broke within weeks, or DOA. In every single instance I was given a return shipping label gratis and a full refund upon receipt of the item. They offer to ship a label for $1 or let me print it myself no charge.

      I was so pleased with the return experience it was difficult to keep my resolution to cancel my prime membership after the year was up. I justified it by intending to reduce how much stuff I buy. Having the membership tilts the decision making for me towards "buy it" whereas having to consolidate items to get free shipping or coughing up the occasional shipping fee tilts it away from "buy it."

      I've had awful return experiences with other online merchants, especially the dodgy chinese ones.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    19. Re:'No such thing as free shipping' by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      It's not rocket science, but as long as you can keep funding the business while it's not actually making much profit, it will work in the long run, and you will have a nice monopoly.

      They are well on their way. Amusingly Walmart is frantically trying to play catchup with Amazon. It is funny to see them be the scrappy pint size underdog.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
  21. Re:poor workers? by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Negotiate? How much power do you think an individual has as compared with the corporation currently? There is no negotiation... you take it or leave it.

  22. Re: If you are not paid enough find another job??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Those poor guys camping in the woods could be actually forced to take the job OR lose unemployment benefits.

    Not an easy choice to make ....

  23. At an Amazon warehouse it's fun, fun, fun! by colinwb · · Score: 1

    From the first linked article:
    ... Criticism continues from some quarters about working practices, but Amazon general manager Paul Ashraf insists that the company cares about its staff -- and is disappointed by the perception some people have of the business.
    "I think from my point of view we're a global brand, so that brings headlines in relation to what people think about Amazon and this place," he told The Courier. "From my point of view I try to focus on what's within my control. I focus very heavily, especially in peak times, on associate experience. ... It's hard work at this time of year, of course it is. ... We just focus on customer obsession, making sure we deliver the customer promises. Whatever we've promised a customer in terms of what's going to be delivered, we make sure that it is processed and shipped on time.

    While we're doing that, we make sure we keep people here safe, so it's all about safety first, and make sure that from an associate experience point of view we try and have as much fun as possible. We had DJs on every floor on Black Friday, we had tombolas, we had raffles that people get free entry into -- it's all about keeping associates safe and having fun."
    ...

  24. Quit then! by p51d007 · · Score: 3, Informative

    If the conditions are that bad, QUIT, go somewhere else! "But there isn't anything else"...and that's Amazon's fault?

    1. Re:Quit then! by Barlo_Mung_42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, in part, it is Amazon's fault. But only in part. The problem is complex with many parts so it's only natural that the solution will be as well.

    2. Re:Quit then! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a traditional mining area with limited connectivity to the continent. Manufacturing jobs have been repeatedly offshore because costs are too high in the UK. Money has been heavily invested in education so now you have parallel over-educated and under-educated workforces struggling to find decent work.

      The Scottish economy, particularly in Fife and the Central Belt is hugely imbalanced, and that dates back to at least the 1980s, if not earlier when unprofitable coal concerns were subsidised instead of channelling money into alternative industries...

    3. Re:Quit then! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because Amazon's free shipping, huge inventory, and no property tax, sales tax for years caused a lot of brick & mortar business to close.

    4. Re:Quit then! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "But there isn't anything else"...and that's Amazon's fault?

      Even if it's not Amazon's fault, they , like many companies, can certainly take advantage of that. Pay and/or working conditions can get really bad when those in charge know there are few alternatives for their employees.

  25. Bonus Army by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Insightful

    In late-stage capitalism, living indoors is optional for workers.

    "They live in tents because they've chosen to live in tents. Now pass me some more frog legs and foie gras."

    CEOs and gangster capitalists are going to be so shocked when they see mobs building guillotines outside their office windows. The recent elections - Brexit and Der Trumpen - have moved us toward that day. What will voters who said, "Fuck it, I'm voting for Trump to burn the whole motherfucker down", say when Trump doesn't improve their lot (like the 1100 Carrier workers whose jobs are going to Mexico despite Trump's much-trumpeted "deal")? Hell, they're going to skip right to, "Let's burn this motherfucker down ourselves."

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:Bonus Army by mspohr · · Score: 1

      I wonder how long it will take the ignorant fools who voted for Trump to figure out that he is screwing them, too.
      Could get interesting if they decide to go all agro.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    2. Re:Bonus Army by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0

      I wonder how long it will take the ignorant fools who voted for Trump to figure out that he is screwing them, too.

      The smarter ones - the ones who wear shoes and occasionally visit a dentist - have already figured it out.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Bonus Army by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      I wonder how long it will take the ignorant fools who voted for Trump to figure out that he is screwing them, too.

      The smarter ones - the ones who wear shoes and occasionally visit a dentist - have already figured it out.

      Just wait a year, then they'll really be screaming. We're in for epic levels of corruption, nepotism, malfeasance, dismantling of the social safety nets...

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    4. Re:Bonus Army by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll take _possible_ "epic levels of corruption, nepotism, malfeasance" over demonstrated levels any day of the week.

    5. Re:Bonus Army by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My prediction is the opposite. We're already in a post-fact world; they'll dig in their heels deeper to avoid cognitive dissonance. Anything Trump does will be written off as "Lugenpresse". If he has some trouble, complaining about immigrants will cover it nicely. If he starts up a new war, they'll be in a screaming blood-frenzy.

    6. Re:Bonus Army by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      in for?

      Have you been asleep for the last 20+ years?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    7. Re:Bonus Army by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Have you been asleep for the last 20+ years?

      No, not at all. Yeah, there's been a ton of corruption in the last 20 years, but you've not seen anything yet, not like we're going to see. Let's take the last 8 years for example...

      Did Obama's daughters sit in on meetings with world leaders like Ivanka Trump has? Nope.
      Did Obama appoint close family members to positions of power on his staff? Nope.
      Did Obama pimp his business holdings out to world leaders the way Trump already has with his hotels? Nope.
      Did Obama install an endless succession of billionaires and Goldman Sachs executives into his cabinet positions? Nope.

      Seriously, whatever corruption has gone on on the last 20 years is going to look like child's play compared with what's to come.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    8. Re:Bonus Army by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Bill Clinton did many of the things your list. Only #3 is an exception. Because Bill never held an honest job in his life and had no holdings.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    9. Re:Bonus Army by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Bill Clinton did many of the things your list. Only #3 is an exception. Because Bill never held an honest job in his life and had no holdings.

      Well if we're going to travel back in time, perhaps you should study up on George Bush and Dick Cheney, the masters of monetizing the White House. Hell, Cheney started a war and invaded a country to make some cash for Halliburton. And when he wasn't doing that he was drunkenly shooting his friends in the face.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    10. Re:Bonus Army by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      They did a good job of restarting the sunni/shia wars. Too bad Obama didn't understand that we wanted them stalemated, not Iran winning.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    11. Re:Bonus Army by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      They did a good job of restarting the sunni/shia wars. Too bad Obama didn't understand that we wanted them stalemated, not Iran winning.

      Great job of avoiding discussing the corruption that Bush & Cheney excelled at.

      But like I said, standby for epic levels of corruption by the Trump Crime Family. You ain't seen nothin' yet. We'll see what the tally is this time next year.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    12. Re:Bonus Army by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      With a little luck, we'll also get a real investigation into the Clinton corruption.

      That's the good thing about power switches. The democrats had their time to look at all you allege. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

      I'm just hoping whatever dirt Bill had, that kept him out of real trouble the first time, has expired.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    13. Re:Bonus Army by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      I hope they all burn in hell forever, like a quantum candle fed by the limitless energy of the universe.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    14. Re:Bonus Army by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      almost as good as you pushing off on bush cheney when the original discussion was Trump, then Obama. ...

    15. Re:Bonus Army by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      My optimistic but plausible hope is that Trump doesn't really care about the R power structure, threats to which have kept anything like Justice off the Clintons.

      I'm fine with the Clintons dumping their dirt as well. That is the plan. Along with further counter dumps and at least three dead political dynasties (Bush, Clinton and Kennedy). Hillary wears orange though.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  26. ITT: Metric fucktons of AMZN apologists. by sethstorm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Price alone isn't a justification for such conditions. If anything, price-related justifications show a callous disregard for those that do work (or seek it).

    If anything, this is a reason why permatemping (what Amazon is doing), classification abuse (hiding behind a third party), and zero-hour work (the ultimate in precarious work when combined w/ UK-style workfare) needs to DIAF and the remains be shoveled into the nearest black hole.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
    1. Re:ITT: Metric fucktons of AMZN apologists. by gravewax · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hate Amazon, But this article is absolute bullshit. They weren't camping behind their because they were destitute and didn't receive a living wage, they did it because it was more cost effective and convenient.

    2. Re:ITT: Metric fucktons of AMZN apologists. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      It's always more cost effective to live rent-free on a piece of spare land than it is to own or rent some reasonable accomodation.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:ITT: Metric fucktons of AMZN apologists. by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Amazon is not permatemping. Most of warehouse associates are permanent full-time positions with some growth possibilities. Temps are hired for the peak season to handle the excess demand and are generally scaled back after that.

    4. Re:ITT: Metric fucktons of AMZN apologists. by gravewax · · Score: 1

      yes it is. I have done exactly what they were doing for around 6 months once. For exactly the same reasons too. saving $70 a week on transport allowed me to pocket that money instead of wasting it on fuel while I was working at an orchard after university. The pay was decent but every dollar counted and I happily took the discomfort and cold of a tent to keep those extra dollars myself.

  27. Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Amazon charges its employees for shuttle service to the fulfillment center,

    Jesus christ, Portal was intended to be satirical black humor, not some kind of industry standard you're supposed to imitate.

  28. And how would one do that? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Near as I know, there is no such thing as "the workers' salary augmentation fund." So where does one send money? You can't just give it to Amazon, the fact aside that they aren't set up to just take money without offering goods/services in return, they wouldn't funnel it to the warehouse workers. So where does one send money?

    Or are you just making a statement to try and make people feel bad, as though they should do something, but providing a bogus solution?

    1. Re:And how would one do that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he's deliberately putting forward an absurd, bullshit solution to give you the idea that it's all the fault of the employees.

      They should clearly make the Free Market work for them and simply go work for a better employer.

  29. Amazon is ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 2

    ... CEOs and shareholders who want instant asymptotic revenue growth.

    Morals, ethics, decency, and humanity are for non-profits.

    In the US, SCOTUS says Amazon is a person.

    They didn't specify what kind.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  30. Really badly written article by SuperKendall · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The summary says "he stuff was stolen". But the article itself is much less clear:

    He added that he had opted to stay in a tent as it was easier and cheaper than commuting from his home in Perth, although his camping equipment had disappeared by Friday afternoon.

    Did he say it had vanished? Or did the article writer find it had vanished on Friday? Not at all clear.

    Also no aspect of the interview really asking the guy if he "had to" camp as the Willie bloke claimed, they just want you to assume that is the case. The actual guy who was camping just said it was cheaper and easier - if you are just going to be there a few week or two for seasonal work why wouldn't you prefer this to any kind of commute? Back when I used to work insane hours programming I slept under my desk for a week. It wasn't because I had to, it was just way easier at the time.

    Also low 30's (assuming F) is not "battery cold", it's just mildly chilly and most sleeping bags would handle that temperature easily. I've camped before in sub-zero (again F) temperatures before and that's not at all uncomfortable with the right equipment.

    Basically the whole thing seems written with a pre-determined viewpoint in mind and hardly any real research or interviewing done.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Really badly written article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to the world of local journalism. It's massively unprofitable and relies on offshored subeditors, journalism grads that are willing to take next to no money and generally an abundance of really shitty ads. So the quality is plummeted over the last ten years.

      Scottish journalism in particular takes a much more left slant than American journalism and will almost always be on the side of the individual when opposed to big business. It might look odd to our Atlantic counterparts, but that is the dominant political view point here.

    2. Re:Really badly written article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      did your job pay £7.35 an hour when you chose to sleep under your desk though? I suspect you did it for different reasons than these people.

    3. Re:Really badly written article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Bought this tent/sleeping bag combination so I could camp out in bitterly cold temperatures. It works great. Rating: *****"

    4. Re:Really badly written article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      his camping equipment had disappeared by Friday afternoon.

      Yeah, good point. Assuming he's off on the weekend, I'd expect that. Unclear whether the author or the equipment owner was observing the disappearance.

    5. Re:Really badly written article by Roadstar · · Score: 1

      Also low 30's (assuming F) is not "battery cold", it's just mildly chilly and most sleeping bags would handle that temperature easily. I've camped before in sub-zero (again F) temperatures before and that's not at all uncomfortable with the right equipment.

      It must be F. I wouldn't want to be sleeping in a tent if if were low 30's in C as I'd be too busy sweating to get any sleep at all. For example here in Finland the official heat threshold is 25 C and warmer countries have the limit a few degrees higher. 30 whatever is still really warm in C. Seems like low 30's in F are around 0 C and decent camping gear should have no problem with that like you mentioned.

    6. Re:Really badly written article by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      did your job pay £7.35 an hour when you chose to sleep under your desk though?

      No but Ive made much less than that before, and slept in my car to be closer to work at the time (worked at a golf course so you had to be there quite early).

      I really doubt the reason was any different as the guy said "cheaper and easier" - it's really great to wake up and walk right into work. It means you get more sleep (LOTS more sleep) which I place more value on than almost anything. And it is cheaper, when I was doing it I liked not having to buy as much gas.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  31. All hail our corporate overlords by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 0

    All hail our corporate overlords!

    How merciful of Amazon not to buy up that land and then charge their slaves, errr, I mean "employees" for the privilege of camping on it.

    I don't know about over there, but I know that Amazon has been directly responsible for driving the cost of apartments in Seattle through the roof. You used to be able to rent a modest apartment for $500 to $600 a month, now it's well over $1200 to $1500 or more for a basic place in a run down building. But screw those poor people, right?

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    1. Re:All hail our corporate overlords by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Having company housing would make more sense. Small apartments are cheap to build and run and they could charge just under the going (full size) rates.

    2. Re:All hail our corporate overlords by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      If there is a shortage of affordable apartments, it's probably city hall to blame. They control(limit) the supply. If nothing else they could allow basement suites or build low rent apartments for the poor.

    3. Re:All hail our corporate overlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes but liberals all control the city council, and they have brothers who just happen to work for housing construction companies.

    4. Re:All hail our corporate overlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having company housing would make more sense

      That suggestion would not go over well at all in the US, where Company Towns have a long and dismal history; no one wants to go there again.

    5. Re:All hail our corporate overlords by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      there's a really nice company town in California, I can't remember exactly where, near a dam. Small little cabins in the middle of nowhere in the forest. Of course, they're not forced to buy food at the company exchange, but the whole place is subsidized by the electric company.

  32. Consumers should be ashamed buying the cheapest. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll have you know Mr poster, we consumers buy stuff at the highest prices we can so our money will trickle down to the poorest of people. No sir, none of that Black, Friday deals for us.

  33. Has nothing to do with livable wage by WolfgangVL · · Score: 1

    And everything to do with people being a little HARDER than your default little bitch tech worker.

    Subtract the family, I would sleep in a tent until I could afford the van for decent pay. Double if I was unemployed before I was hired on.

    Businesses hiring temp workers for low wage would do well to offer campgrounds.

    --
    You are being ripped off every second of every day, so that advertisers can help rip you off even more tomorrow.
  34. Starving artists. by Ostracus · · Score: 1

    Struggling writers found sleeping In tents behind Random House HQ

    So, think anyone will notice the difference?

    --
    Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
  35. In conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The combination of brains, the energy and discipline to work 24x7x365, and an utter lack of scruples tends to lead to outsized rewards under the American system of capitalism.

  36. The laziness industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In general any company which depends on and promotes laziness tends to treat their employees horribly. They're far more aware than the average person of the overall negative effects they're having on society. And they really don't care. You can't expect people like that to treat their employees well.

  37. CEO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you pay the workers, when the fuck is the CEO going get paid?

  38. Cold Nights? by iCEBaLM · · Score: 1

    Despite Scotland's "bitterly cold winter nights" -- with lows in the 30s

    As a Canadian, that's cute.

    1. Re:Cold Nights? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. It's -15 here (so, 5f for you americans) right now, and winter's just beginning.

      Gonna have to get the good winter jacket out of storage pretty soon.

  39. I visited Dunfermline a long time ago. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dunfermline was - back when I was there in the early 90's - a town full of dead and dying manufacturing industries, surrounded by other small towns full of dead and dying peripheral industries, in a region that had been gutted of industries. Wonderful people. Amazingly good food for the area. The bleakness of the area had its own beauty, similar to much smaller places like Migdale, Spinningdale, Betty Hill, Lairg, Bonar Bridge, or Ardgay. There used to be a coffee shop in the northwest "corner" of the second(?) high-street roundabout that made awesome lemon scones.

  40. Re: "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little by sonamchauhan · · Score: 2

    Half of 'a lot' is still 'a lot'. But 'incentive to move' is one thing, its the 'capacity to move' thats vaporising. As orgs get larger and larger, the base of the pyramid gets wider. If you were born on the wrong side of the tracks, this means fewer bridges to the prosperous side of town. Making the glitzy side glitzier does nothing except cement dissatisfaction.

  41. Similar in the US by RubberDogBone · · Score: 2

    There were already similar stories in the US where Amazon workers lived in camper RVs and travelled from warehouse to warehouse as work was needed. So it does happen here.

    Beyond that, I used to work in an office park with small number of fulfillment warehouses. During a health kick phase of my life, I used to spend an hour a day walking the office park in loops. It was reasonably safe and let me de-stress from work. It was during these walks when I happened to look into the adjacent woods you normally could not see from within the office park or the road and realized there were numerous tents set up, some carefully camouflaged.

    This wasn't even Amazon but a much smaller fulfillment operation, mainly for Brother products. And it was 8 years ago.

    --
    Sig for hire.
    1. Re:Similar in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There were already similar stories in the US where Amazon workers lived in camper RVs and travelled from warehouse to warehouse as work was needed. So it does happen here.

      This is the future of employment in the U.S. We have destroyed the Unions, so we can expect this. The corporations now have all the power, and can fire you at-will in most states. Think you can sue the company? No, because that 'employee agreement' you signed says that you waive your right to sue. However, you can always go through arbitration. That always favors the little guy over the corporation, right? The corporations do what they want, and it will get way worse with the new administration of hand-picked corporate insiders.

  42. It IS sustainable, IF.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    shipping is nationalized under the postal service, last mile delivery is exclusively using renewables (doable today, but not in the past.) AND delivery based businesses are taxed according to income to offset costs.

    But that isn't 'free market', that level of infrastructure improvement isn't going to happen in the next 5 years, nevermind decade, and FREE MARKET IS BETTER! according to the Americans, even while shorting their own economy's future.

  43. Re:Obvious solution by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1

    1) Eliminate minimum wage and allow the market to set the rate through competition. Minimum wage sets a nationwide standard of how little a person in a position like this is worth.

    MANY employers feel employees are a burden they wish they could do without and feel like paying them even minimums is too much. They'd LOVE to pay zero, maybe toss them a sandwich for pay. If the law allowed it, they would do it! Nevermind if people can survive off that. There are always tons of applicants for every job so they are disposable people.

    --
    Sig for hire.
  44. Re: "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And the workers who don't have such a magical salary augmentation fund should feel guilty that they're not rich enough to buy expensive shit. Because buying expensive shit is the only way to heaven.

  45. "bitterly cold winter nights" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > ..."bitterly cold winter nights" -- with lows in the 30s....

    Um... There are a couple days forecast to not get above 0 next week here. Will trade house in northern Wisconsin for tent in Scotland.

    1. Re:"bitterly cold winter nights" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > There are a couple days forecast to not get above 0 next week here. Will trade house in northern Wisconsin for tent in Scotland.

      The weather in Brisith Isles is not particularly cold as the mercury goes (*) due to Atlantic Ocean currents delivering heat from the tropical regions (**). Problem is the powerful and almost incessant wind (see Wuthering Heights), especially in Scotland and the infamously frequent rainfall (hidden umbrella dispenser is a factory default item inside every door of a Rolls Royce car and also why Ireland is a green island.) Because of these factors, weather in Blighty feels much colder to the bone, from a human physiologial perspective than any freezingly dry place, even a place covered by deep snow.

      (*) Compared to e.g. Scandinavia
      (**) Global climate change may stop that gyration some time in the not too far future

  46. Re:Obvious solution by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    Remember, no one actually forced these workers to accept a salary of minimum wage

    Yeah no one's forcing the workers to not starve to death on the streets. It's their choice.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  47. Re: "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Given that many workers in such low paid jobs get working tax credit or housing benefit in the UK, then the we already contribute to that fund via taxation. The UK government is increasing the minimum wage which will move the direct burden from taxation to the employer, although presumably the average taxpayer will see no reduction in taxes, but some increase in the cost of goods and services.

  48. Lows in the 30s? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "bitterly cold winter nights" -- with lows in the 30s

    Shouldn't that be the -30s? I don't think Scotland gets into the thirties very often even in summer and +30 or more at night would be hot enough to make camping quite uncomfortable.

  49. Associate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The safety and well-being of our permanent and temporary associates is our number one priority."
    Yeah... he's no longer an associate. Sorry.

  50. Nothing funny on the entire Amazon? by shanen · · Score: 2

    Just a meta-comment on a couple of points.

    Searched for funny comments. Not quite nothing, but the few that were moderated funny were barely.

    Searched for "evil", but only referenced in a sig.

    Searched the insightful comments. Not.

    Searched for references to any of the books I've read about Amazon. Nothing.

    Several hundred comments. The article is probably about to expire. Wanted to find some part of the discussion that was worth participating in. Failed.

    Oh well. Capsule summary. I stopped doing business with Amazon many years ago because I felt they were abusing my privacy and my personal information. (Also no visible references to those two terms as of this writing.) Just went through a 16-month episode of Amazon spamming that was only stopped (if it has been stopped) by appeal to jeff@ himself. Yet in conclusion, I don't really blame Amazon for becoming evil. That's just the rules of the business game these decades. If a company fails to become sufficiently evil, then it gets destroyed like roadkill. (I think NetScape, Sun, Palm, and Nokia are examples of such destruction.)

    --
    Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  51. Try SEIU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The UAW one of the most corrupt, bloated, useless organizations I've ever had to deal with.

    Try the SEIU instead. Nimbler and leaner, and the upper management of the union seems to have a grasp of things like emergent effects and not-shitting-in-your-water-supply. They don't just organize janitors either, they also organize professions like nurses and medical residents (I myself am a medical resident).

    1. Re: Try SEIU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the SEIU is not corrupt at all.

    2. Re:Try SEIU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ugh. I'm in the SEIU, and we get janitorial shop stewards attending our technology meetings and bitching about schedules and concepts they couldn't possibly understand "Why is that guy working nights, are you compensating him for it?". Uh, yes, we are, he's the night shift operator.

  52. Warehouse housing available, fire code optional by guruevi · · Score: 1

    This is not some 3rd world country, they make a livable wage or at least have the option of doing so, if not, the government will give it to them. Some people choose to live in a warehouse that has no stairways, fire escape or sprinklers. Some live in cars and tents, even in the middle of winter, it is very rare that across someone's life someone would be forced to do so in these countries, there are enough social nets and backups and aid available. I'm not going to feel sorry if they burn or freeze to death unless the government ordered them in there.

    People in the US and EU/UK alike have the opportunity to have a minimum wage which affords you a small house and usually even your own transportation, there are enough work places begging for low cost labor.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  53. If this is how they manage nr 1 priority by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I worry about their 2nd and 3rd priorities.
    And i wonder what priority making a profit has for Amazon.

  54. You should read "I was a Warehouse Wage Slave" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You should read "I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave".

    Really tells you what it is!

    With regard to the discussion of Walmart vs Amazon vs Whatever: Funny story there. I go to Walmart for a toy, it's $10. Same toy at Target is $15. Same exact toy, right down to the barcode, is $20 at Toys R Us. So you'd think if I spent more money, the employees would be better paid, and I'd get better service. That is not the case! Employees are treated equally poorly, everyone makes the minimum wage, google Target and see how toxic a work environment that place is, and for paying more money I'm treated worse! Try it yourself! Returns at Toys R Us took 2 stores, dealing with half a dozen rather rude people, taking to the manager at both stores, government issued photo ID, the original credit card, quoting their return policy to them, which I had to bring with me, etc. I was particularly enamored of their technique for printing their return policy behind their service desk where only employees could go in a flyspeck font that required better than 20/20 vision to read, and then pointing at it. I came damn close to filing a claim in small claims court, all for a $20 game case that they said I could return and turned out to be the wrong size. Spent more on gas & time returning it that it was worth, but damn they pissed me off.

    Contrast all that with Walmart where I'm in and out in 10 seconds. There's nothing to it. No ID, no nothing. Even lacking a receipt it's not a problem.

    I've seen a number of companies, including Toys R Us & OfficeMax playing the free shipping game. They offer this great deal. It's $49, free shipping if the order is over $50, so you add in some junk. Then the original great deal is canceled and you're stuck with the junk you bought to get the free shipping, which is often no longer free. Returns? See above. It's bait and switch. It ought to be illegal! But nothing ever seems to happen. At least OfficeMax didn't charge me for shipping and accepted the return gracefully at a local store. Toys R Us? Never again!

    Food, I had a local grocery store chain that charged me double unless I had their "loyalty" card. I kept forgetting it, so I photocopied the bar code. That was fine for years. Then one day, nope, photocopy is no good anymore, they sent me out for the original from my car; Me quite visibly sick (I had gone there for meds), with three kids in tow, the oldest of which was in kindergarten, the youngest of which was almost a year old, out into their unplowed parking lot with more than 4 inches of snow on the ground for the original loyalty card. You know, even WITH the loyalty card, I was still paying $5 for turkey hot dogs at the grocery store vs $2 at Walmart. (It was worse without the card.)

    I'm the one paying my hardearned money here, and it ain't that easy to earn in the computer biz once you're over 40. How much crap do you expect me to put up with to make some rich bastard richer so I can feel good about a different group of people being exploited!

    It's not like I can pick a company that treats their workers better when they're all so shitty!

  55. Re: "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $15 an hour is NOT the answer. That's a random number pulled out of thin air. Cost of living varies from state to state (city to city), so to state unequivocally that $15 an hour will give you a "living wage" no matter where you live is pure BS.

    Plus, I hope McDonalds, Carls Jr., etc. all come through and just replace all the entitled workers (seriously, Fast Food as a CAREER CHOICE?) with a Machine, like they have been testing. As it's not going to make the mistakes that the average worker does (McDonalds Drive-Thru screwed up my order just last night here in the People's Republic of California where they're already making way too much money). As arbitrary increases like this have to come from somewhere (I'd like to know where you came up with $0.25 per hamburger more to cover a 50% increase in wages for every worker in the store per hour ($10 -> $15 here in CA)), and we know it's not going to come out of the profits (that's what people invest in the companies for, to make a profit).

    So ultimately, you raise the minimum wage, which increases the costs of goods (thus inflation), and ultimately $15 becomes the new $10. Congratulations, the only people you screwed were the people already making $15 and above who didn't get a pay raise to offset the inflation.

  56. Re: "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ayup, another European who doesnt understand free

  57. Re: "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its not difficult to keep yourself clean while winter camping. Guess youve never had that experience in mom's basement.

  58. Re: "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so littl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Keep in mind most of the commenters here are probably in the US. Here in Texas, we arent provided with health care, public transportation, housing and food assistance are also hard to come by.

  59. Social Credit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One wonders how much value each worker generates for Amazon, and what percentage of that value Amazon returns to workers as compensation. One wonders if Amazon pays their employees in the warehouses enough money to be able to afford the very goods and services they are producing.

     

  60. Lows in the 30s? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Global warming is worse than I thought!

    Can we have an international Slashdot site, please?

    Because right now such "news" are hard to read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Countries_that_use_Fahrenheit.svg

    This is so stupid... like using inches and feet to measure things...

    Captcha very appropriate: "confuse"

  61. Re: "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so littl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In your unproductive years, be uncomfortable in your poverty. Maybe that will give you some incentive to be a better person instead of whining about your lot in life.

  62. Customers shapes companies. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For those who are attacking Amazon, can you answer if you are looking at the same item on website A and B, and site A is cheaper, which one will you choose? IF your answers is A, you are just as same as those who likes fur, but hate animal get killed.

  63. Nice straw man by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    ya got there. Be a shame if a stray bit 'o truth caught it fire and burned it down...

    This has nothing to do with what Amazon allows or doesn't allow. They're not paying their employees enough to afford an apartment. Simple as that. Nobody lives in a tent by choice. You didn't either. If you were better paid you'd have bought an apartment. Just because you don't feel like you were taken advantage of doesn't mean you weren't.

    Oh, and these are warehouse workers. They make a hell of a lot less than you did working for Silicon Valley. They're not going to pull themselves up by their bootstraps with their mighty Amazon warehouse wages. Unless somebody comes along and helps them they'll spend the rest of their lives there. And they'll be joined by more workers. We'll have tent cities in America. Let that sink in.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  64. Great Lakes Paperclip Company by eliphalet · · Score: 1
  65. Astro-Turfing against Scottish Government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "They pay a small amount of tax and received millions of pounds from the Scottish National Party Government, so the least they should do is pay the proper living wage."

    If Amazon meets the criteria, the grants must be given - adminstered by the Scottish Government.

    Corporation Tax and Minimum Wage Legislation is reserved to the UK Government at Westminster - despite repeated requests by the Scottish Government to devolve authority over these things to Holyrood.

  66. That's the funny thing, any sleeping bag works by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    That is amusing but here's the thing - even a crappy $14 sleeping bag from Amazon is rated "32-60 degrees F", and the article said it was "in the 30's" so several degrees warmer than the lowest rating. That's why I don't think "bitter cold" is the right term because even a light sleeping bag easily keeps you warm at 30+F.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  67. Factual Accuracy? by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 1

    I live in the southeastern US. The Amazon warehouse 6 miles from my home starting pay is 160% of the minimum wage, and family members who work there have rapidly reached 200% of the minimum. Why is there such a discrepancy here?

  68. TENTS?! by Stubbyfingers · · Score: 1

    Obviously Amazon is paying them too much.

    They get tents! Wow! They're supposed to dutifully freeze or starve to death after the Christmas Rush like good Donald Trump Voting Americans want them to.

  69. Where I come from, "bitterly cold" means by PJ6 · · Score: 1

    you could get frostbite in less than 30 minutes.

    That's like 10F with storm-force winds, or around -15F in calm weather.

    Frostbite isn't even possible over 28F, what kind of weirdo calls 30F "bitterly cold"?

  70. Re: "Amazon be ashamed pay their workers so little by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fast food may be salivating about their machines replacing humans, but what happens when each home gets one? why would I need a restaurant at that point?

  71. The cost by myid · · Score: 1

    The Courier article states,

    “We pay competitive wages — all permanent and temporary Amazon associates start on £7.35 an hour or above regardless of age and £11 an hour and above for overtime.”

    1 British pound = $1.27. So the pay rates are $9.33 straight time, and $13.97 overtime.

    If over 40 hours/week is considered overtime,
    then 60 hours of work there is 40 hours straight time + 20 hours overtime,
    and the pay is (40 * $9.33) + (20 * $13.97) = $373.20 + $279.40 = $652.60.

    If "The fares the company charge for transport swallow up a lot of the weekly wage" then the shuttle service must be expensive. I wonder how far away from work the employees live. Maybe the employees who don't own a car can commute with employees who do own one, or take public transportation.

  72. Re:Obvious solution by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    This is absolutely true. And to be fair, in many jobs, the employees are a necessary evil. I would imagine in warehousing, Amazon is looking forward to automating away more and more of the jobs as they appear to be working very hard to do.

    The problem is, there are social welfare systems in place in most western countries that make it more profitable to stay at home then to pay less than the current minimum wages. If the cost of working itself (transportation, lunch, etc...) exceeds the wages, there's no point going instead of just scraping buy.

    The result is, employers have to offer more to get access to the necessary evil. When minimum wage exists, they already know what to pay them. I live in a country with no minimum wage. I haven't seen a native homeless person in years... and I look sometimes. And a dual income family from McDonalds can justify a good standard of living.

  73. Re:Obvious solution by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 0

    If you consider the cost of working, meaning the cost of transportation, food, etc... involved with being an employee, outside of the US, most countries offer better welfare than the minimum wage.

    And no, no one forced them to accept a minimum wage position. There are endless jobs in almost every country for people willing to look. McDonalds, Burger King, etc... they aren't for people who actually take the time to look. They respond to seeing a help wanted sign... they unintentionally forfeited their liberty in exchange for laziness. They ended up taking one of the hardest and shittiest jobs ever simply because they refused to google jobs and go on interviews. They got a job while eating a cheeseburger.

    The number of jobs available for unskilled labor is massive around the world. And there are many employers who would be willing to pay handsomely for someone who is trustworthy. Consider security guards, toll booth clerks, janitors, lawn care, maids, etc... people who can be trusted are worth a lot. A first step towards trust is seeing someone who is willing to take the initiative to find a job as opposed to simply responding to a TV commercial or a help wanted sign.

    And no... in Scotland, you will not starve to death on the streets if you live on welfare. Scotland homelessness is generally due to people running from home or leaving a relationship. The numbers are extremely low.

    So if you remove the minimum wage, the employers will definitely try to respond by taking advantage of it. That would be stupid not to. But when they need to hire people, no one will apply which will require them to increase their offers.