Slashdot Mirror
India Just Flew Past Us In the Race To E-Cash (backchannel.com)
New submitter mirandakatz writes: Since India's prime minister banned 86 percent of the rupee notes in circulation last month, citizens have been waiting in hours-long lines for ATMs. But these circumstances have also created an unexpected progression: a burgeoning cashless economy. At Backchannel, Lauren Razavi explores how India is now beating many Western countries in adopting mobile payments, and how demonetization has triggered a radical shift toward reimagining India's enormous informal economy as a data-driven digital marketplace. From the report: "Before last month, Paytm, a mobile app that allows users to pay for everything from pizza to utility bills, saw steady business -- it was processing between 2.5 and 3 million transactions a day. Now, usage of the app has close to doubled. 6 million transactions a day is common; 5 million is considered a bad day. Rather than being forced to idle away time in excruciatingly long lines, 'people are proactively exploring other ways to settle payments besides cash,' says Deepak Abbot, senior vice president at Paytm. 'Now people are realizing they don't need to really line up, because merchants are starting to accept other forms of payment.' All of this has created a newfound system that practically incentives mobile payment. With so many people queuing up at banks every day -- and a lot of Indian bureaucracy to wade through in order to open a traditional bank account or line of credit -- the appeal of more convenient digital alternatives is easy to understand. According to a report in the Hindu Business Line, as many as 233 million unbanked people in India are skipping plastic and moving straight to digital transactions. 'Cash has lost its credibility and payments are no longer perceived in the same way,' says Upasana Taku, the cofounder of Indian mobile wallet company MobiKwik, which reported a 40 percent increase in downloads and a 7,000 percent increase in bank transfers since demonetization. 'There's chaos at the moment but also relief that India will now be an improved economy,' she says."
in India, anyway
That's a race I don't want to win.
The summary makes it sound like losing access to cash is a good thing, as long as it can be replaced by a number on a server in all cases. It is not.
Who's "Us"?
Cashless only seems nice until you realize that it's not really anonymous and all the ways it allows for outside control...
Apple Pay itself eclipses all of those numbers. 3 million transactions a day is nothing.
You cashless society morons are staring at the wreckage of India's economy and thinking "boy, this sure sounds like a great idea, I can't wait to try it!"
Note that the socialist utopias are moving to e-cash.
I'll keep my dollars, thanks. No need to bother the tax man every time I buy something from a local vendor.
As long as you didn't drive to said vendor on a government-funded road under government-funded street lights using gas that was purchased from a government-inspected pump (so as to make sure that you pay for a gallon and get a gallon) then sure. Don't bother paying the same sales taxes that the rest of us pay.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Sounds like a horrible thing.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
...3....2....1
Republicans don't trust Democrat administrations, and Democrats don't trust Republican administrations.
And some don't trust either.
I use bitcoin.
Because computer security and how it seems to universally suck.
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
Who the fuck is "racing to e-cash"?
"Cash has lost its credibility"
To whom? Bureaucrats? Banks? The NSA?
This sounds very much like that contrived "Internet of Things" we're supposed to all need.
-Styopa
India has devalued its largest denomination bills by surprise, in an attempt to get folks in the "black economy", and this even means professionals like doctors, to account for their cash and stop avoiding taxes. Everyone has a very short time to deposit the old bills in a bank, or lose their value.
The problem with this is that because it was a surprise, India did not print new bills first, and does not have the capacity to print them at anything near the number required.
So, right now many businesses are shut down because they can't pay their employees. It seems that it was the case that these employees were paid in cash and might not be able to get bank accounts.
Their economy is going to take a hit.
Bruce Perens.
If they now devote some resources to developing their infrastructure, the rest of the world will start taking them seriously.
The dose makes the poison.
Meanwhile in the real world, it's evil capitalism that gets things done. Before the government can steal something and give it to you, it first has to be invented by someone willing to take risk or built by someone that expects to get paid.
This includes the machines that paved the road, the street lights, the gas pump, and the gasoline.
Socialist snow plows are built by capitalists.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Quite aside from the fact that this quotes "the co-founder of Indian mobile wallet company" as if his position makes him an authority rather than biased, the only real advantage presented is because the government does not want you to use cash. The government is doing this because it has more control and surveillance capacity over other forms of payment, in this case for tax reasons. These may be valid reasons but they are also double edged and dangerous the banks or apps that win the battle for market share will become real life God objects[1] seeing and knowing all transactions and required for everything, if they break or the internet fails even locally you can't even buy bread. Worse from the anti-cash perspective if you have cash already the disadvantages only apply to bank dependent transactions, and only due to a temporary artificial shortage, not simple cash transactions. Is this a "real" advantage? how is any of this a good thing?
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_object
I just wish we could get people to stop writing checks at the supermarket!
A check transaction almost inevitably goes along the lines of, "Oh, you mean i have to pay!? Let me first find my checkbook and then spend forever filling out the check, almost all of which could have been done while waiting in line or while my groceries were being checked"
Not the end of the world of course but i do have better uses for my time than waiting in line.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
Only with e-cash. Coming to a mineshaft gap near you.
There is no need to invade everyone's privacy to ensure every cent of sales tax is paid. 'Government-funded' means 'citizen-funded', you've got the power argument backwards or you've drank the kool aid that tells you citizens exist to serve government.
Here's an article from earlier today that would seem to disagree with a basic assumption of this story:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news...
You are welcome on my lawn.
This idea that you can't buy something without the government knowing about it leads to the inevitable you can't buy something without the government approving of it. This fear of not being able to trade freely has been around for a long time. The bible had the mark of the beast.
Before the government can steal something and give it to you,
You mean like how the government paid for networking research that lead to the internet? Or how they fund basic science research with grants that private companies would never do? And then the same companies just take the research and make money off of it. Brilliant innovation. Socialize the losses, privatize the gains. Yay Capitalism !
Meanwhile in the real world, it's evil capitalism that gets things done.
Said the person commenting on a SOCIAL website where people congregate under a SOCIAL contract for a COMMON goal to SOCIALLY and FREEly exchange ideas. But perhaps you're the special kind of ayn-rand-boot-licking prick who invoices their friends and peers for giving them your time.
Such a blinkered, narrow view. Did Capitalism protect those inventors from having their inventions stolen by those with more resources, or was it the socialist patent office that helped them out? For that matter, did capitalist forces keep their countries safe from invasion so they could work without concern for marauders coming over the hills to kill them and take their resources?
For the people, they should've given them more time to turn in/exchange the bills. Start the purge of the bills Jan 1. Do the same thing but stretch it out over the course of a year. Make ATMs and banks stop giving them out, have businesses first change out their cash stores. Once the rush dies down, then tell businesses to stop accepting the bills, and then Dec31 make them useless. This instant disruption seems rediculous.
How, exactly, are they discounting all of the debit, credit card, and ACH transfers in the US?
It's trivial to get your own card reader, there are various Apple and Android payment systems, PayPal, Google Wallet...
They're cherry-picking the hell out what it means to be an "electronic" payment.
-- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
I don't know why the media thinks a switch to newer cash technologies is a good thing. Good old cash, checks, and credit cards work pretty well. So, why the rush to replace them?
If you don't believe that you are tracked on other purchases you are not doing any homework. Donate to the wrong event or charity and suffer the consequences. Legally you can donate to the Political Party of your choosing, but is that action truly protected. How about donating to the wrong author, artist, public speaker, etc..? Ever see how Professors in Universities get treated when it's revealed that they are Republicans? They may not be fired directly, but you bet your ass that they are censured and ostracized. Plenty of examples for you to find if you look.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
That's a race I don't want to win.
Agreed.
There seems to be a general war on cash.
Australia is talking about getting rid of the $100 note.
Europe is limiting cash transactions.
I think there are a few reasons for this.
1- Negative Interest Rates. ie It is better to hoard cash than have it in a bank earning -ve interest.
2- Govts need more tax revenue
3- Long term globalist agenda to have a cashless society so all men can be controlled as predicted 2000 years ago in Revelations 13
16And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark — the name of the beast or the number of its name.
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And yet all of those things - roads, amenities, regulatory authorities and the tax system to pay for them - all of them predate e-commerce. All of them date back to a time when account ledgers were physical books (ledgers) and cash was king. Think about that.
Okay, I've thought about it. What do I do now?
Drill baby drill - on Mars
In a nation of over a BILLION population, 6M is a rounding error.
Before the government can steal something and give it to you,
You mean like how the government paid for networking research that lead to the internet?
Do you remember the Internet before it was commercialized? I do. The government certainly did NOT give us "The Internet". The internet the "government gave us" was highly restricted to educational institutions and people who had lots of money to pay for connections. "Us" did not get to play in the fancy new sandbox.
If you could get a UUCP connection from someone on the internet, (or, as I had to, paid for one from PSI) you got the fun of using things like BITFTP to get stuff from the net. But "The Internet"? I WORKED at a University and didn't get internet access. That's how magnanimous the "government" was in "giving" us the internet.
Said the person commenting on a SOCIAL website where people congregate under a SOCIAL contract
Talk is cheap. Making things takes money. And there's some chatter about something called "Dice" every so often that seems intimately attached to the continued operation of this site.
Well, I've thought about it also, and I'm not sure either. How about a nice game of chess?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If you want an unbiased view on this, please don't ask just the mobile payment providers who have everything to gain by painting a rosy picture of a very bad situation in India. The markets across the country are crumbling following this idiotic decision with markets falling as much as 70% in some sectors (agriculture is an example) and 100s of 1000s of people losing their jobs as a direct result of this bone headed move by the government.
Washington Post: India just made a big mistake with its currency ban
https://www.washingtonpost.com...
The Harvard Business Review article on this is far more factual: Case study in poor policy and even poorer execution.
https://hbr.org/2016/12/indias...
This sounds more like a PR puff piece from the company involved. Let's just ignore all of the Chip and Pin or "wave your card over the machine" payments systems in the rest of the world whose transactions must dwarf by many orders of magnitude anything India can manage. Slashdot is a shadow of it's former self - most of the articles it uses are really terrible bits of journalism or pure PR puff.
The fear of government "Taking away your guns" is uniquely American. The rest of the world has solved the problem far upstream by not making firearms and ammunition freely available to the general public. Ethnic profiling is done anyway, through various other means. They're not depending on cashless payment systems for this. And finally, very few people are worried about being deported FROM India.
Indian governments don't go after ordinary people as much as their political opponents. Also, the 2nd Amendment is something uniquely American: India has nothing like it. In fact, that's one aspect of US legal tradition that Indians have trouble grasping
Religious profiling particularly in the context of Jihad is something that they more easily do. The ACLU or even a Paul Ryan would have a panic attack if they were in India during a terrorist attack and saw how the Indian law enforcement retaliated. In fact, if they don't retaliate, there would be riots, w/ Muzzies being at the receiving end.
Next should be currency that any of us are allowed to create, and which is globally usable w/o exchange rates or any of that stuff. Simple reason - as more jobs get automated (which is a good thing), fewer jobs are available to the general population. But the population can't be starved, and at the same time, the existing currency can't be rendered worthless given the people who have invested into it. So a parallel currency should be introduced which anyone can write and pay for anything - rent, car, food, et al. Also, such a thing would be an international leveler w/o things like WTO, NAFTA, TPP, et al, since people in any country can create it and pay for anything they need
Actually, given the deluge of political stories we regularly see, this is actually one of the rare tech stories that's hitting the news. Normally, e-cash would have taken a decade to catch on, but thanks to the abolition of various currency denominations, it's caught fire overnight w/ anybody w/ a Galaxy, a Lumia or an iPhone
People like street vendors don't carry credit card readers. But some do have smartphones, in which case, this option would work
Get me fucking cash, or better yet oil. Barrels of it. Will keep it in my bedroom. You see energy is the most inflation proof thing. If you have energy you can do anything.
Meanwhile in the real world, it's evil capitalism that gets things done. Before the government can steal something and give it to you, it first has to be invented by someone willing to take risk or built by someone that expects to get paid.This includes the machines that paved the road, the street lights, the gas pump, and the gasoline.
Socialist snow plows are built by capitalists.
You seem to have a chicken or the egg problem. Without Capital you can't make "the machines that paved the road, the street lights, the gas pump"etc and without those you can't support the businesses that make Capital. The truth is that the Western nations build the infrastructure and wealth necessary to support Capitalism using truly evil Economic Systems like Colonization and Slavery
I don't know, the last time someone tried to steal one of my inventions I pinned him to a wall and punched a hole in the wall next to his head. Pretty effective. I guess that it doesn't scale up though.
Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
Yep, seems like your apprehended the problem precisely... government-funded this, government-funded that, government-funded everything. Couldn't agree more.
So, you're a privatization advocate, I take it? Good idea. Eliminate bureaucrats, create real jobs, increase efficiency, direct capital where it is most needed. Sounds good!
Might makes right irrelevant.
I just had this great idea for a fabulous new technology! I'm calling it CASH. Here are its features:
Might makes right irrelevant.
I always carry a couple hundred in cash just in case, and it has come in handy. Over the summer I was waiting in line at the grocery store when their POS system decided to take a nap and stopped processing credit or debit transactions - cash only, said the cashier. This was a major Canadian grocery chain, not a mom and pop corner store. As far as I could see across several checkout lines, I was the only one with cash - everyone else had to queue up at the single ATM to withdraw money to pay for their purchases.
I get the privacy issues some people are raising here. But until the day when electronic payment systems are bullet-proof (probably long after I've shuffled off this mortal coil), I will continue to carry a wad of bills in my pocket.
"Could be worse...could be raining." Igor
http://freakonomics.com/podcas...
Interesting stuff.
The M-Pesa service from Safaricom in Kenya is way ahead. In 2015 it processed 4.1 billion transactions. The value of the transactions represented 42% of Kenya's total GDP. Kenya's population is around 45 million compared to over 1.2 billion in India.
The truth is that the "world’s most developed nations" are not even in the mobile payment race yet, because most people in these countries can get bank accounts. Mobile money solutions are getting very good traction in less developed countries where the only cash alternative for most people is to use a cellphone.
Not to mention the spectacular implosion of Greece in recent history. While corruption and not paying taxes wasn't the only story with Greece, when I think of another country that is developed, but had lots of the other two problems over a long period of time, finally coming back to bite them in the ass I think of Greece.
Perhaps India took a hard look at what happened in Greece and is trying some corrective measures before things get too out of hand. India doesn't have the rest of the EU or Germany to buy them out and lend them money, their only option would be devaluation of currency.
Anyway as someone (or many) has already mentioned, the corruption in India is legendary, even in government. What *IS* surprising is that they had the political balls to go through with it considering the practice is so widespread both in the public and private sectors, this can't be a very popular move.
We, The little People do not want to be in the "race" to a cashless society! There are so many negative consequences that the whole idea scares the hell out of me.
The privacy implications are creepy enough, but that's only part of it. If the government eliminates cash from the economy, we will be totally reliant on banks. If the option to withdraw & hold physical money disappears, the banks will charge us just for holding our wealth. Think 0.5% interest on your savings account sucks? How about -0.5%, or -2%? The banks will also set or increase fees for every single transaction. Want to sell something on Craigslist or say, have a yard sale? Get ready to pay the same sort of fees that merchants pay for accepting credit card transactions, and be prepared to declare the proceeds as some sort of "income" on your tax forms. You know damned well that Big Brother will have access to the whole system. Maybe they will auto-deduct the taxes every time something comes into your account and make you prove that it wasn't some sort of income or profit?
Then you have the risk that either the bank or the government could arbitrarily turn you OFF.
Or maybe we experience a prolonged power outage and ALL commerce in the affected area stops?
We absolutely do not want to go cashless.
Cash transactions provide Privacy/Security; Govt must give Gun-Licenses to Common man if it really wants a Cashless society; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Casteism
Right, but they don't all have credit card readers
I live in Europe. I work in the financial sector. Please explain to me how Europe is limiting cash transactions.
https://www.french-property.co...
https://www.theguardian.com/wo...
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> 5 - easier for governments to crush dissent. Simply freeze the trouble
> makers accounts, and they wont even be able to afford a lawyer to challenge it.
Read up on "Operation Chokepoint" some time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Banks received orders from the US government to stop doing business with individuals and businesses "believed to be at higher risk for fraud and money laundering". Note; the victims may have all their taxes paid, and never been charged, let alone convicted, of a crime, but they go broke because they can't access banks.
I'm not repeating myself
I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
You're missing the point here. There were no guns for the government to "take away" in the first place. Lets take a look at the number of firearm related fatalities in India vs. the US*:
India: 0.28
US: 10.54
*Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year (2014). Source: wikipedia.org