Tesla Introduces Fee For Owners Who Leave Their Cars At Supercharger Stations (techcrunch.com)

Tesla announced today that it will start charging owners a fee of $0.40 per minute if they fail to move their vehicles at a Supercharger station. If drivers don't move their cars within 5 minutes of the car hitting 100 percent, the fee will begin to assess. TechCrunch reports: "One would never leave a car parked at a gas station right at the pump and the same rule applies with Superchargers," read Tesla's announcement. How will one know that it's done and you need to scoot? Why, one will get an alert on one's phone, of course, via the Tesla app. One already does, in fact. So one never had any excuse. "To be clear, this change is purely about increasing customer happiness and we hope to never make any money from it," the announcement also reads.

Comments

It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a Starbucks within walking distance of a Tesla station in Tifton, GA -it's actually right behind the Starbucks. Folks plug their cars in and go for coffee or something. I mean, those cars take a while to charge - it's not like gas where it takes just a minute or two to fill up. And people do leave their cars at the pump and go in to buy other shit.

And unlike gas stations, the Tesla station is pretty empty. Maybe in the future when there are more Tesla's on the road it could be an issue.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[thegarbz]

There's a Starbucks within walking distance of a Tesla station in Tifton, GA -it's actually right behind the Starbucks. Folks plug their cars in and go for coffee or something.

Yep and when their cars are full they should go move them or pay a fee for preventing the charging point being available to others. Just like when you go to a highway service centre you fill up, you go in and pay, then you move the car, and go to sit down and eat.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Mr D from 63]

But wouldn't it be better if you could actually do something during that 15 min? one can't even have that luxury after paying $90K for a car? Seems like more chargers is the better solution, let users pay for them too. If it takes 15 min to charge and I'you have to wait 10 or more for the guy in front of me anyhow, you are burning up a big chunk of time.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Mr D from 63]

^my editing skills are deteriorating. I'm only drinking coffee...I promise.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, you think it takes 10-15 minutes to fill your car with gas. How strong is the tesla reality distortion field.

EPA limits gas pumps to 10 Gal/min for cars and 40 Gal/min for trucks. I have an 18 gal tank so even if it were set to 5 gal/min that would be 4 minutes + lets say 1 minute to swipe you card.

10-15 minutes no way.

All electric cars + high energy density charges might be great, but let's not pretend that it's comparable. Also tesla is doing this to themselves, placing charges next to starbucks or malls or whatever, where are gas stations located... on street corners or off exit ramps of highways not next to things you want to go and spend a lot of time around, that's why people don't park at the pump and go shopping. This is going to be the issue with high speed charging if all electric cars become any more than a novelty and actually become practical for the masses. If filling time is 2-5x longer than it is now you're going to need a lot more charging stations that you currently have gas pumps especially in population dense areas.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Alain Williams]

if you time it you'll probably find the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m.

I cannot see how you get 10-15 minutes to fill your car with petrol - assuming that you don't have to queue. It is easily done in 5 max: 4 to self service fill up, 1 to pay at the pump with your credit card.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[AmiMoJo]

It doesn't take 15 minutes. For a start, it depends on the size of your battery, which ranges from 60 to 100kW. Then it depends on the charge rate, which depends on battery temperature and if anyone else is using the charger that shares the total 150kW available per two cars. Charging shows as the car nears 100% too.

You could easily wait an hour to go from 25% to 100%. While charging people who linger is a good idea, 5 minutes grace is a bit harsh. 20 minutes would allow you to get the notification (bad signal), return to the car from the nearby shops and move.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but given that you charge at home most of the time (only 10 seconds to plug the cord) in the end you end up wasting less time for energy

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Zocalo]

Now there's a common courtesy mentality that could have done with catching on more quickly in the UK. The major supermarket chains finally caught on to the possiblity of co-locating a small store with a forecourt a few years ago, so instead of the typical "motoring essentials" you used to be able to pickup in the garage you can now plausibly do a full grocery shop... and people do. Often without moving their car from the damn pump first. The "solution" to this seems to be a lot of CCTV with ANPR and pumps that have a built-in credit card payment systems to try and encourage people to fill-up, pay, then re-park before they shop - all expensive items that will no doubt have their costs passed on to the consumer - along with a reduction in required staff headcount due to fuel-only transactions that are now automated, naturally.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Time it. Time how long it takes to pull off, put your card into the machine, watch it fumble around and ask you for a zipcode or a pin or whatever (or however long you have to stand in line), and all the other shit before you're back on the road.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[fluffernutter]

I live in a place that is cold. I sure hope a Tesla stays heated while having to sit in it for 15 mins.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

They take a while to charge? Do you even own a TESLA?

It takes ~15m if you're higher than 25% battery. It's 20m if it's dead flat. Incidentally, if you time it you'll probably find the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m.

Their change is completely reasonable -- it says "don't be a fuckhead, get your charge, move, and let other people charge their cars." And if you're in SC, there are definitely queues to use the chargers. Nothing worse than going from a 20m wait to 60m wait for no reason other than someone else wanted to get their fucking latte or whatever and didn't give a shit about anyone else.

+1 for TELSA.

Why would you make up a lie, like this? A charge to 100% is over 2 hours.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

90k isn't exactly luxury. I live in Switzerland, and I'd call that mid range.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

10-15 minutes to fill a gas car? I think not, but if it makes you feel better about your choice in cults please carry on.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude you don't have to cry about it, listen so you bought a tesla and you like sitting for 45 minutes to get a full charge, it's fine. But please. It takes way less than 1 minute to autheticate your card at the pump even having to "fumble" with your zip code. I mean seriously, just re-read what you wrote. How complcaited is it for you to use a credt card for the transaction. Honestly the only time it takes me any longer is when I am using the truck station for deisel they generatally don't have card readers at least in my area so I have to go in a pay, but the up side is the 40gal /min, it takes about 20 seconds to fill the tank, maybe 5 minutes to pay since i have to walk in. No matter how you look at it, it's going to take you FAR longer to fill the electric, you just can't push electrons as fast as you can push a hydrocarbon they get too hot or you need better infrastructure.

The ONLY way to get the range/time anywhere near gas powered cars is going to be doing battery swaps you just can't charge the fast enough, at least not until we have some other type of technology.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[naughtynaughty]

Your Tesla tells you when you car will finish charging, if you think you need 20 minutes grace period I'd suggest you are a perfect candidate for Tesla's fee so you can have the pain modify your insensitivity towards your fellow Tesla owners.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Ichijo]

But wouldn't it be better if you could actually do something during that 15 min? one can't even have that luxury after paying $90K for a car?

You still have that luxury, but now you have to pay for it if you take longer than 20 minutes. 40 cents per minute won't make a Tesla owner bankrupt, probably.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Howitzer86]

Idea: Self driving queues. Why do we have to wait in line when our cars can do it for us? As a bonus they immediately leave once filled and can move to a regular parking space or meet you at your current location.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Mr D from 63]

LOL, you think it takes 10-15 minutes to fill your car with gas. How strong is the tesla reality distortion field.

Due to the existing infrastructure, most never have to wait on a pump to be available either. I think 4 minutes is about normal for my fill ups. I can't recall the last time it took 10, but it would have been after waiting on a pump and including that wait time.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[jellomizer]

If you have money to buy a testa I would think your time would be a bit more valuable then that. It takes me 3 minutes to fill my tank. So the time to charge up from your specs are 5x as long as a gasoline car.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[r1348]

Dude, you live in Switzerland.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Barsteward]

they are reacting to customer complaints so its an issue in other locations.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

I took your advice and did so: 2 minutes and 47 seconds to fill up a little over 11 gallons. I even had time to turn off the annoying blaring audio advertisement and decline an up sell car wash. I'm with the first poster: 15 minutes to charge your Tesla is pretty fast, but it's not comparable.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Mr D from 63]

You still have that luxury, but now you have to pay for it if you take longer than 20 minutes. 40 cents per minute won't make a Tesla owner bankrupt, probably.

Somehow I don't think that solves the problem of Tesla owners waiting on the charger to become free.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Barsteward]

+1

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[swillden]

5 minutes grace is a bit harsh. 20 minutes would allow you to get the notification (bad signal), return to the car from the nearby shops and move.

Five minutes is fine. You already have a pretty good estimate of what time your car will finish charging, so you should plan to be back near the car around that time anyway.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

to get 300 miles from a gas station I only have to fill half way and since its a 10L tank that doesnt take half of what you propose gas stations take

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Barsteward]

now you are lying, here is the reality "Tesla supercharging stations charge with up to 145 kW of power, or up to 16 times as fast as public charging stations; they take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100%. The charging stations provide high-power direct-current (DC) charging power directly to the battery, bypassing the internal charging power supply"

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[squiggleslash]

Do you even own a TESLA?

I'm guessing the OP doesn't. I don't. 99% of Slashdotters don't. They're extremely expensive luxury items, and most IT people I know either own something fuel efficient and cheap to get to work that's probably 5-10 years old, or a pick-up or a minivan because of the those vehicle's utility (again, both 5-10 years old.) I've seen a Model X on the road (I commute from Martin to Palm Beach County going through the richest parts of both) and it didn't strike me as having the capability to be remotely as useful as either a minivan or pick-up.

We're a practical lot. We can admire Tesla vehicles for the technology, but for most of us they're expensive and offer little to sell us on the expense. We'd never recover the additional cost in terms through gas savings, and the gimmicks are impressive rather than compelling. Being able to change lane by tapping a button is not worth a $30-50,000 premium (or extra $5-700 per month in financing.)

They take a while to charge? {...} It takes ~15m if you're higher than 25% battery. It's 20m if it's dead flat

It takes about 2-3 minutes to fill a Honda Odyssey's 18 gallon gas tank from "Amber warning light on" status at an average gas station, which I believe is what the comparison was with. That's not enough time to run over to Starbucks and grab some coffee.

But if it took 15 minutes, yes, I'd want something else to do. We all would.

To be clear, I'm not arguing Tesla is outside of its rights doing this. But this is a symptom of an underlying problem, that the charging issue - while improved has not been solved. Tesla needs to look at a technical solution to this, even if it's just adding more charging spots.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

But wouldn't it be better if you could actually do something during that 15 min? one can't even have that luxury after paying $90K for a car? Seems like more chargers is the better solution, let users pay for them too. If it takes 15 min to charge and I'you have to wait 10 or more for the guy in front of me anyhow, you are burning up a big chunk of time.

Tesla should optimise the use of its chargers. I do not have much patience for people who block gas pumps while they take their god's own time to scarf down a hamburger and fries or start slowly and leisurely cleaning their windows, mirrors and headlights or engage in something other time consuming activity while blocking a pump. The same goes for charging stations. With a car that is as full of digital technology as a Tesla you'd expect either the car or the charging station to be able to text you or send you an email when it's done charging. That way you could do what you want while it charges and it would be your own damn fault if you get a fine for blocking a charger. If anything they should raise the fine. Wish they would do this with gas pumps too.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[PopeRatzo]

I do not have much patience for people who block gas pumps while they take their god's own time to scarf down a hamburger and fries or start slowly and leisurely cleaning their windows, mirrors and headlights or engage in something other time consuming activity while blocking a pump.

Chill, dude. You're way too stressed if someone cleaning their windshield at a gas pump is bothering you.

Here in the US we have a gas station every 100 feet. If one is crowded, you can just mosey on down to the next one.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[PopeRatzo]

it takes about 20 seconds to fill the tank,

The other 14 minutes is to go into the station to buy your pork rinds, Big Gulp and scratch-off tickets.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[drinkypoo]

Incidentally, if you time it you'll probably find the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m.

No. It takes about five minutes.

Their change is completely reasonable -- it says "don't be a fuckhead, get your charge, move, and let other people charge their cars."

Sure, there's nothing wrong with that. Have the car alert you at 90% to give you some additional wiggle room if it takes you more than five minutes to get back to your car.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Jeremi]

15-20 minutes falls well within the ISO standard definition of "a while".

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[drinkypoo]

Chill, dude. You're way too stressed if someone cleaning their windshield at a gas pump is bothering you.

If they don't start cleaning them while the fuel is flowing, they can fuck right off and clean their windows at home. There's only a couple of filling stations I'm willing to use in my town given the prices and the condition of their equipment. I'll return the favor, and get the hell out of their way.

While I'm ranting about behavior at the filling station, my #1 peeve is people who drive gas vehicles who pull up to the pumps with diesel on them when they have a choice of another pump. Then they want to get angry when you ask them to move to another pump (before they start filling) when they shouldn't have used that one to begin with. Leave it for people who need it, asshole.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[DarkVader]

I'm virtually certain it can. I can have my Ford stay heated while charging if I want.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[DarkVader]

So, if the charging power is shared between two cars, you'd be looking at 150 minutes to 100%, or over two hours...

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[drinkypoo]

How odd, we've had these in the states for years and we don't have a problem, even in the most sleazy and methed-out of towns. For example, I have never had this problem at the Tower Mart in Clear Lake, CA which is surprising because it is fucking meth central. Or, perhaps that's why we don't see this problem. If you try to pull that shit here in the states, someone may shoot you. I guess an armed society really is a polite society ;)

Seriously though, I recall hearing the boys rant about this on Top Gear, and being amused. I still haven't seen it here.

We also have supermarkets which sell petrol, and the petrol is near the road and the supermarket isn't, so that problem never crops up there.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[DarkVader]

Well, they're working on a robot supercharger, so I'm sure they're already thinking of that.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Your level of patience is irrelevant to my getting a hot dog in the store.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[JoeMerchant]

Ummmm.... including payment (CC at the pump), the "whole process" from parked to driving away from a petrol pump is typically less than 5 minutes for 250 miles (400km) worth of fuel.

The problem with a 15-20 minute charge time is that the kind of fuck-tard who buys a Tesla in the first place can't be tied down to one spot for 20 minutes waiting for something mundane like charging their car, their time is too important for that, gotta go get a latte or something. Is it their fault that the line was so long, or that the barista got their order wrong, twice!?! Oh, you were waiting on them, sorry man, blame the -itch in the coffee shop.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Odd place USA. Over here every pump has diesel in it. Most also have gasoline. CNG, ethanol, biodiesel and truck diesel are limited in quantity.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[JoeMerchant]

AC troll much? Cars don't cost more in Switzerland, just real-estate.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[JoeMerchant]

You are getting "free" fuel (o.k. - pre-paid in the purchase price, but, still, the incentive scheme works like free.)

Have some courtesy to your fellow electromotorists, move your junk out of their way ASAP so they can get their "free" fuel.

Don't these things "drive themselves" anyway? Couldn't it auto-repark after filling up?

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the idea. I hate those fucking diesel stinkwagons in front of me in traffic. Good way to say "fuck you" to them at the station. I'll start blocking their pumps as much as possible from now on.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[AmiMoJo]

You already have a pretty good estimate of what time your car will finish charging

Not really. If you arrive and another car is already pulling 100kW from the shared charger, your car will pull about 15kW. When the other one starts to slow down as it nears 100%, yours will speed up. It's hard to predict because you can only get a very vague estimate of the other car's state-of-charge from the speed at which the charge port is blinking.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[BasilBrush]

You're simply not an early adopter. But you'll be getting an electric vehicle at some point or other.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[JoeMerchant]

$90K for the car, $0.40 per minute "asshat fee." A 10% asshat tax on the car would purchase 375 hours of asshat time at the free charging station. As a flat per-minute fee, I don't think it will modify behavior where it really needs to.

If I were setting the rules of the game, it would charge $0.01 for the first minute late, $0.02 for the second (total of $0.03), $0.04 for the third, $0.08 for the fourth, etc. with a "grace" of up to $1 per day free overage charges forgiven. If you haven't paid your overage fees, no more free charging until you do - pay a minimum of premium gasoline equivalent prices to get charging privileges restored.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

do not have much patience for people who block gas pumps while they take their god's own time to scarf down a hamburger and fries or start slowly and leisurely cleaning their windows, mirrors and headlights or engage in something other time consuming activity while blocking a pump. The same goes for charging stations. With a car that is as full of digital technology as a Tesla you'd expect either the car or the charging station to be able to text you or send you an email when it's done charging. That way you could do what you want while it charges and it would be your own damn fault if you get a fine for blocking a charger. If anything they should raise the fine. Wish they would do this with gas pumps too.

In Canada, at most modern-day gasoline pumps you cannot set a trigger to allow the fuel to flow while attending to cleaning the windows.Is the situation materially different in the United States of America?

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[ravenshrike]

Then read a book, or get Kindle Unlimited. Or buy your coffee and hustle your ass back to your car instead of making a pathetic pass at the cute barista.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[I75BJC]

The Pope Ratso wrote, "Here in the US we have a gas station every 100 feet. If one is crowded, you can just mosey on down to the next one.". That is so NOT the point. On, at least, a few levels. (1) Some vehicles can only fill-up at certain gas stations. (Businesses, gift cards, credit cards, discounts, etc.) (2) Only a few gas stations offer 100% gasoline in our area. (3) Some people have their favorite brand. (4) Some people are "in a hurry" for legitimate reasons or otherwise don't have the time. The real issue that effects most of us is, at best, thoughtless people or, at worst, mean and vengeful people. While you welcome people on your lawn. Would you really welcome someone setting up a tent and tapping into your water and electricity and dumping their porta-potty in your back yard?

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes way less than 1 minute to autheticate your card at the pump even having to "fumble" with your zip code.

Again in Canada it takes at least 2 minutes from the time you insert your debit or credit card to the time you can begin pumping fuel. The number of screens and steps between welcome and thank you is approximately 7 on average.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

94 F-150, 2 tanks, both around 1/8th. 4:15 because I was cleaning the windshield when the first one clicked off yesterday. It takes aobut 5:30 if I check the oil too. Timed it because we had this discussion with a Leaf owner yesterday. I do, however, support the plan to run an outlet in the parking garage to top off his car at work on the company's dollar. However, your reality distortion field is impressive.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[AmiMoJo]

I should say that I drive a Leaf, so I'm well aware of the etiquette and do always move after I've finished charging. That's also why I know it takes more than 15 minutes.

A 65kWh Tesla takes about 50 minutes to go from zero to 100%. Of course no-one actually rolls up with zero. The charge rare also slows down after about 80%.

It would help if they charged for the electricity because then people wouldn't charge to 100% all the time, they would move on as soon as they have enough energy to get to a cheaper source (like home). But since it's free they are willing to spend an extra 10-20 minutes getting something to eat or whatever, even though the value of the energy is pretty low.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[drinkypoo]

Odd place USA. Over here every pump has diesel in it. Most also have gasoline. CNG, ethanol, biodiesel and truck diesel are limited in quantity.

In the USA, diesel is unpopular for passenger cars because we had some crappy diesels in the 80s and then we got crappy emissions laws that unfairly penalized diesels even though gasoline vehicles pollute more, and their pollution is more hazardous. Therefore we have less diesel fueling infrastructure. The only numerous diesel vehicles are pickup trucks, and VW golfs and jettas. Since we have no import pickups due to the chicken tax, the demand for diesel is further reduced. The import manufacturers have only recently begun producing pickups with diesel engines, because their sales volume has finally grown high enough to justify emissions testing of small diesel engines.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[PIBM]

Here you can pay 0.5$ less per gallon ( total savings of ~$8 for my car) if you are willing to queue up at Costco. Queue time routinely reach 15 minutes, and the fill rate is about 3 gallon per minute. Usually will only go if my wife is at Costco while 1 or 2 of the kids nap in the car. If we had a model X, it would always be recharging back at home, and the charge would be enough for every day except twice a year where we would have to charge it near our destination.. but then we could take the grand caravan for those days..

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[ColdWetDog]

Y'all aren't real Americans are you?

Us guys (Americans are always guys) have pickup trucks with 100 gallon strap tanks. Cuz Zombies.

They take a while to fill up. So we needs sustenance. Just chill out and have a beer.

That's the big problem with Tesla - putting charging stations near fucking Starbucks. Now if they put them in front of liquor stores like God suggested nobody would give a shit.

Of course, if you all manned up an used real cars and trucks you wouldn't have this problem, would you?

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

There has been a problem for awhile with this, but Slashdot is not a site fior IT people . It's a site for nerds of all flavors. Since IT is a drudgery janitorial type occupation, unlike engineering or design or many other more creative nerd lifestyles, only the failure-nerds are at all involved in IT. So, no, Slashdot is not a site for IT types, although they do tend to infest parts of it.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[drinkypoo]

Thanks for the idea. I hate those fucking diesel stinkwagons in front of me in traffic. Good way to say "fuck you" to them at the station. I'll start blocking their pumps as much as possible from now on.

Not as much as they hate you; gasoline vehicles produce more HC, more CO2, just as much soot (only more dangerous soot) and just as much NOx since the advent of urea injection... VWs aside. Further, the HC from gasoline vehicles is more volatile and thus more hazardous than that from diesels.

My diesel stinkwagon only stinks when cold and it barely smokes or stinks even then. It has no emissions equipment so it makes nice big soot particles that are easily swept out of your lungs by cilia there, unlike the super-fine soot particles produced by gasoline cars with catalysts. In spite of being almost twenty-five years old, it gets around 30 mpg cruising on the freeway and yet has enough room for four large adults. As I am two meters tall, I am not a candidate for a microscopic econobox, so most of the modern vehicles I would drive get no better mileage.

I hope you are happy when I get my A8 rolling again. Surely having a 4.2 liter V8 running around making fine soot is better than a 3 liter L5 turbo making the nice fat stuff... and less of it.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

now you are lying, here is the reality
"Tesla supercharging stations charge with up to 145 kW of power, or up to 16 times as fast as public charging stations; they take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100%. The charging stations provide high-power direct-current (DC) charging power directly to the battery, bypassing the internal charging power supply"

Think about what you just typed. I'm a liar for calling out the 15 minute charge time, and you rebut with 75 minutes?! Remember, the original poster claimed 15 minutes starting from 20% and 20 minutes for lower battery levels. How the fuck do you equate 20 minutes, to 75?

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

why doesn't Tesla partner with Starbucks or some other national cafe chain to make sure that there are coffee shops on premesis, or at least build a little enclosed reading hut or something.

Asking drivers to wait next to their car for 15 minutes in a cold new england winter is kind of a bit much.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

saw a leaf on the motorway in uk,cold day, steamed up windows, looked miserable as he looked like he dare not use the heating...

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes way less than 1 minute to autheticate your card at the pump even having to "fumble" with your zip code.

Again in Canada it takes at least 2 minutes from the time you insert your debit or credit card to the time you can begin pumping fuel. The number of screens and steps between welcome and thank you is approximately 7 on average.

I dare you to actually TIME it.

It's probably more like 20 seconds.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Calydor]

In my case it goes like this:

I drive into the gas station. Same will be true for Tesla.
I turn off the car, step out, go around to the gas tank. Same will be true for Tesla, just the battery compartment instead.
I unlock the gas tank, grab the nozzle, put it in and start pouring. Won't be much different to plug in a cable on a Tesla, I'm assuming.
I stand there for two, maybe three minutes. I PROMISE you it's no longer than that or I'd freeze my hands off in winter. Tesla will now be 20% done.
I take the nozzle out, lock the gas tank, and go inside to pay. Total time to do that with cash, probably another two minutes. Tesla will now be 40% done on a good day.
I go out to my car, get in, drive off. Tesla is at best half done.

I admit I have no idea what kind of huge ass gas tank your car has, but to think it takes 15 minutes to put gas on your car is ridiculous.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

> if you time it you'll probably find the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m

Oh, BULLSHIT. Maybe if you go in to use the restroom, browse a bit, microwave a frozen burrito and then pay for your gas with loose change.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

> If they don't start cleaning them while the fuel is flowing, they can fuck right off and clean their windows at home.

You DO realize that the process of pumping gasoline into your car involves pushing highly flammable liquid at pressure through a hose, right? You're supposed to stand guard over the nozzle while the pump is in operation in case something goes wrong.

But hey, if you want to have a stroke in the comfort of your own car because someone wants to clean their windshield, feel free.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[mark-t]

Yes, they take a while.... at least compared to gassing up. In my experience, even filling up from below "E" on the fuel gauge with an 85 litre tank (22 gallons) can be done and over with in about 6 or 7 minutes, including paying for it.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[jordanjay29]

I'm sure the folks in Europe are reassured that their diesel cars are producing less pollution. Meanwhile, they're forced to take public transit every other day in Paris due to pollution from...diesel.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

With a car that is as full of digital technology as a Tesla you'd expect either the car or the charging station to be able to text you or send you an email when it's done charging.

"How will one know that it's done and you need to scoot? Why, one will get an alert on one's phone, of course, via the Tesla app."

Try reading the goddamn summary once in a while and you might not look like such a dumbass.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[EvilSS]

While I'm ranting about behavior at the filling station, my #1 peeve is people who drive gas vehicles who pull up to the pumps with diesel on them when they have a choice of another pump. Then they want to get angry when you ask them to move to another pump (before they start filling) when they shouldn't have used that one to begin with. Leave it for people who need it, asshole.

Huh. Never thought about that before. I think I'll start doing this since it seems to really enrage you and others like you.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[smooth wombat]

Time it.

5 minutes. Yesterday I added 9.253 gallons (I check my mileage) to my tank. From the time it took to hand over my money (I pay cash), fill the tank, get my change and drive away was about 5 minutes. 6 at the outmost and that was because the guy in front of me, who I thought was going to drive away, continued to sit in his car with the engine running until I drove around him.

I you're taking 10 - 15 minutes to fill your tank and pay for it, you're doing something wrong.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[EvilSS]

In the USA, diesel is unpopular for passenger cars because we had some crappy diesels in the 80s and then we got crappy emissions laws that unfairly penalized diesels even though gasoline vehicles pollute more, and their pollution is more hazardous.

Found the VW emissions engineer!

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[waspleg]

Nothing worse than going from a 20m wait to 60m wait for no reason other than someone else wanted to get their fucking latte or whatever and didn't give a shit about anyone else. +1 for TELSA.

Certainly sounds like the kind of arrogant smug narcissistic egocentrism I would expect from an owner of one of these.

That they're effecting each other while leaving the rest of us 99% alone is fucking hilarious. *golf clap*

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[fireylord]

President Trump. Get used to it. Stop hating the people who voted for him.

Does that include Putin's 'Vote' then?

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

The poster is an idiot. Most places either have a diesel only pump, or all the pumps have a diesel option.

If you're in Oregon, it doesn't matter anyhow since it's illegal to pump your own gas. So you spend at least a half an hour waiting for the kid to finish smoking his joint before spilling gas all over the side of your car.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who travels extensively around the US, the gasoline dispenser trigger lock seems to vary. Some states (CT for one) have both no lock and an annoying vapor recovery system that requires you to push the nozzle's rubber vapor collector hard into the car until a micro switch engages. And hold it there for the duration of fueling. Other states are a lot more lax. And some differences appear to just be on a station-by-station or brand-by-brand basis.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[ZorinLynx]

Why are modern gas pumps so slow anyway?

I was a kid at the time, but I remember my mother pumping gas in the 80s and those old analog pumps with the rotating numbers were about twice as fast as the modern ones. You'd think the technology to move a liquid at a higher rate wouldn't be complicated.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[PopeRatzo]

Happy Holidays, dude. Try to take it easy.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually this might backfire on Tesla psychologically.

There was that study they did at daycare centers where parents would pick their kids up late repeatedly like 40 minutes late. They tried to stop it by imposing fines of like $20 an hour of being late. Parents picking their kids up late skyrocketed because they felt it was now completely okay to pick up their kids late because now their was a cost attached to it.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Dutch Gun]

While charging people who linger is a good idea, 5 minutes grace is a bit harsh. 20 minutes would allow you to get the notification (bad signal), return to the car from the nearby shops and move.

Consider that from the perspective of someone waiting in line behind you. 20 minutes is a pretty long time to wait for no reason at all other than that you couldn't be bothered to wait yourself. You do see how that can be perceived as being quite rude, right?

People have smartphones these days. It's not like you can't entertain themselves if you show up a few minutes earlier than your car's predicted charge completion time.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[AmiMoJo]

They often put multiple spaces per charger in, so you can park next to a charging car. When that car finishes charging you can unplug it and use the charger.

I agree it's annoying, but the solution is to install more chargers, not make charging less convenient.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Dutch Gun]

But since it's free they are willing to spend an extra 10-20 minutes getting something to eat or whatever, even though the value of the energy is pretty low.

A good point. People, unfortunately, tend to abuse or overuse free resources. But there's also the matter that fueling to 80% capacity is more risky in an e-car when the range is so much lower than with ICE cars (depending on the car, of course), so I'm not sure that's 100% of the answer. I suppose there's also an ingrained habit to fill your car's capacity to 100%, as with gas.

I have a feeling that free electricity is a temporary thing, but for now I think it's important to make switching to electric cars as painless as possible for as many people as is feasible. So perhaps this is a decent compromise. Even if you do happen to go over the time limit, it's not a huge penalty, just a gentle encouragement to be courteous with others' time.

   

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/216039-more-manufacturers-found-to-violate-diesel-emissions-standards-but-blame-the-test-not-the-vehicles .

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[brec]

They take a while to charge. Almost all of my use of Superchargers has been during road trips -- not around town -- and it's never taken as little as 20 min. to charge. According to https://www.tesla.com/supercha... a Model S with a 90kWh battery takes 40 min. to charge from 10% to 80%, and, as the rate slows as the battery "fills", another 35 min. to go from 80% to 100%

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

The daycare people have figured this one out. Now it's 20 if you're up to 15 minutes late and then rapidly increases to close to 60 for the next 30 minutes, followed by junior getting the boot if a repeat offender.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes about an hour to go from virtually any charge level to 100%. If you are leaving the supercharger network and not just getting enough of a charge to get to the next super charger, it takes an hour. Not 15 minutes. In the places there are gaps in the network, it takes about an hour to charge your car enough to make it to the next super charger.

That hour used to be no big deal, because I'd make sure it happened at meal time, eat my meal and then go on. Now, that's not possible since I can't count on finishing my meal, paying my check and walking back to the car in time.

Most of these places are rural and I've never seen more than 2 or 3 teslas with 8 charging spots. I've even been to one supercharger that sees less than 1 tesla per month.

Now my Tesla is no longer useful for long trips that require leaving the supercharger network or where the network has gaps. The utility of my Tesla just went from on par with an ICE to not even close. I guess it's still good for my daily commute. Not much else.

Further, since they collect at the service centers, it seems to me they are voiding my warranty if I refuse to pay. I'm waiting to see the class actions suites over this one. Perhaps I should sell my Tesla shares.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[NitroWolf]

I own two Teslas and I take a lot of road trips. It takes a bit longer than 10 - 15m for the most part, at least on road trips. If you are just cruising around town, you're probably right. But either way, I'm going to guess you live on one of the coasts. That skews your perspective. In the majority of the country (such as where I live) I have rarely, if ever, seen another Tesla at a Supercharger. All of the Superchargers between St. Louis and Denver are completely empty most of the time and are, quite literally, NEVER full. This change doesn't affect most of th country (geoloation wise), so they should just implement it on congested chargers, not on vacant, little used chargers.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[NitroWolf]

90k isn't exactly luxury. I live in Switzerland, and I'd call that mid range.

Two words: Bull and Shit.

I don't care where you live, $90k USD is most definitely in the Luxury class and it not in any way in the mid-range class.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, $90k cars are for peasants.

-Zuck

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

You can still wedge it open with your gas caps... Attendants paying attention get pissy about this though

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

"Not as much as they hate you; gasoline vehicles produce more HC, more CO2, just as much soot (only more dangerous soot) and just as much NOx since the advent of urea injection... VWs aside. Further, the HC from gasoline vehicles is more volatile and thus more hazardous than that from diesels."

This seems a bit out of date.
1. HC hasn't been a major concern since the 70s, the limits are very low and about the same between diesel/petrol under current standards (eg: Euro6)
2. The more CO2 thing isn't really true any more, for Instance the Golf 110TSI is rated at 126 g/km, whereas the Golf 110TDI is rated at 129 g/km. This is because technology like turbos and direct injection, which used to be unique to diesel engines, have made it to mainstream petrol engines, allowing smaller displacement for similar power levels. (110TSI is 1.4L petrol with 110kW and 250nm, 110TDI has 2.0L diesel with 110kW and 320nm, and the torque gap isn't such a big deal since 250nm is no slouch for the weight to start with, but it also has an extra gear in the DSG ). If you compare like displacement with like displacement, diesel looks good only if comparing turbo-diesel vs n/a petrol. If you compare similar tech, it's less impressive. For example, if you compare the Golf GTI (performance and not economy focused) vs the 110TDI, the GTI has 144 g/km (6 speed manual) from a 2.0L engine, but also puts out 162kW and 350nm. That's 12% more CO2 for 47% more power and 9% more torque.
3. Just as much soot, no, this isn't even close. The standards allow about the same amount of soot, but diesels also generate soot when undergoing DPF regeneration, which, unsurprisingly, manufacturers avoid during the tests, so in practice Diesels still generate more PM. PM from petrols was so low, that they didn't even bother to add a limit until DI engines became more common (which generate more PM), and even then the limit only applies to DI engines.
4. (only more dangerous soot) - Diesel soot at the pipe is PM25, petrol soot at the pipe is PM10, which is more hazardous to your health. However modern diesels capture about 90% of PM25 in the DPF, and then release it as PM10 during DPF regen. Diesel ends up being worse with PM due to greater volume.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Incidentally, if you time it you'll probably find the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m.

Well there's your problem. You are comparing the single step of charging your Tesla (equivalent to the single step of filling up your gas tank), against the whole process of pulling in to the gas station, waiting for an opening, getting out of your car, swiping your card, putting the nozzle into your car, filling the tank, taking the nozzle out of the car, grabbing your receipt, jotting down any notes, resetting any meters, and driving away.

In other words, you are being extremely dishonest.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Dutch Gun]

Ultimately, I think you're correct, but the reality is that we'll be in a transition period over the next few decades as cars wear out and are replaced, and as the price of e-cars continues to drop while their capabilities improve. For instance, I still drive a gas-powered car, because it works fine and is paid off. My next car will almost certainly be electric, but I'd be crazy to voluntarily saddle myself with a big monthly payment for the next few years when I've got a working vehicle.

One reason to be optimistic about the future is that unlike gas pumps, chargers can be placed almost anywhere. As such, we don't have to necessarily constrain ourselves to the "gas station" model. "Vending machines" is probably closer to what we'll see.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[drinkypoo]

3. Just as much soot, no, this isn't even close.
[...]
4. (only more dangerous soot) - Diesel soot at the pipe is PM25, petrol soot at the pipe is PM10, which is more hazardous to your health.

The smaller the particle, the more hazardous. However, everything you think you know about gasoline and soot is wrong. Gasoline cars emit PM2.5 which was not accurately measured using former methods. As it turns out, they emit just as much soot as diesels, only it's far more hazardous.

However modern diesels capture about 90% of PM25 in the DPF, and then release it as PM10 during DPF regen. Diesel ends up being worse with PM due to greater volume.

Right. My diesel doesn't have a DPF. Also, oddly, my gasser doesn't have an EGR. Well, maybe it's not that odd given it's an Audi :D

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Gavagai80]

Incidentally, if you time it you'll probably find the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m.

Perhaps if you have a 500 gallon tank? It never takes me more than 3 or 4 minutes.

Nothing worse than going from a 20m wait to 60m wait for no reason other than someone else wanted to get their fucking latte or whatever and didn't give a shit about anyone else.

Perhaps these Starbucks locations are the real issue. How in the world does it take anyone an hour to get a latte? It should be perfectly doable in the 15 minute charging time.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Gavagai80]

The daycare simply miscalculated their price. They should be charging whatever their normal hourly rate is plus say 50% for overtime pay.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

To be honest, where I live, if I had to pay $24/hour for parking, I'll take that spot and pay for it regardless.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[ShanghaiBill]

The daycare simply miscalculated their price. They should be charging whatever their normal hourly rate is plus say 50% for overtime pay.

Actually, they should be charging what the market will bear, maximizing their profit without charging enough to discourage parents from staying after work for an important meeting. If they are really smart, they could even segment the market by quoting a price based on how nice of a car the parent drives when picking up the kid. But many people that lack business sense view customer needs as nails that need to be hammered, rather than opportunities that can be screwed.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[AmiMoJo]

It really depends where you are going. Most of the time you just want enough energy to comfortably get to the next long stop with a charger, usually home or work or a commercial venue. Beyond 80% as the charge rate falls you get diminishing returns anyway, so it's better to set off for the next rapid charger if you are on a long trip requiring multiple charges (i.e. >500 miles).

I can see some places continuing to offer free electricity indefinitely. There are some benefits to businesses because it allows them to offset some of their other pollution. Even if there is no legal mandate for it, sometimes it helps win contracts if you can say the business has good green credentials. Places like supermarkets often do discounts on dinosaur juice if you shop there, and I imagine they will continue to do it electricity, and car parks will just roll some charging cost into the price of the ticket and install solar PV on the roof.

Rapid charging will be paid though. In the UK the main rapid network has already started charging a little bit less than the cost of petrol in an efficient small ICE car. That's fine though, I think I rapid charged maybe twice this year, and I'm upgrading to a bigger battery soon.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Incidentally, if you time it you'll probably find the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m.

I don't know what you're filling up, but for my car it takes about 4 or 5 minutes tops. No way it has ever taken me 15 minutes to fill up my gas tank. You can fill up a motor-home's tank in less time than that.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[SvnLyrBrto]

They used to encourage exactly that. In fact, if you pop over to tesla.com and pull up the superchargers map, the listings do still include the businesses that you are encouraged to patronize while supercharging. And that includes everything from the Starbucks for the free wifi, to the Harris Ranch Steakhouse, if a 24 ounce RibEye is more your thing.

So, this move is more interesting because it marks a reversal from Tesla's original messaging. And one has to wonder why the change and what elst is in the pipeline?

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Mr D from 63]

Gas stations figured it out, get more pumps so nobody has to wait. Maybe if there was a profit motive?

As a side note, and quite irrelevant, I wonder how silly the name 'supercharger' will sound in the not distant future when all chargers are equal or better.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Dutch Gun]

A good point... free charging may be offered if seen as a bonus for paying customers or clients, or as a perk for employees. Also, this could go hand-in-hand with solar collectors to help offset the long-term costs. Even so, that's a lot of initial up-front capital needed, and the total percentage of e-vehicles is still pretty low (less than 1% I believe), so I still think we'll see a gradual transition that tends to match the growth of this vehicle market.

Even so, I'm always a little leery of relying on "free", if for no other reason than it's more susceptible to bean-counter logic, and liable to disappear without notice.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[umghhh]

That actually can be true. Israelis have made experiments with parents being late to pick up their kids from kindergarten - if the fine is too small it may be considered a fee for a service - there letting kids longer and here letting a car just standing there. Come to think of it, this may be quite what happens - after all , as the GP says - these Tesla driving folks are not going to get bankrupt because of that.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Leroy Brown]

Try Singapore.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[AmiMoJo]

Low speed charging infrastructure is actually quite cheap if done right. A lot of the cost comes from overly complex systems set up to bill people. If you just throw in some 7kW sockets with a simple on/off switch, the cost of installation and maintenance is quite low.

But of course, if it's free people will use it even if they don't need to, where as you would really want to encourage only people who need to charge to get home to use it. Fortunately car parks have already solved this problem with their ticketing systems. A simple barcode reader could read the ticket and have the system add a small fee to the cost of parking.

I see that some countries are starting to install charging posts along residential streets now, where off-road parking isn't available.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Nethead]

I would have loved to be able to get a diesel Ranger pick-up. Chevy came out with a diesel LUV back in the 80s and I think that was the last small diesel pick-up sold in the US.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[SvnLyrBrto]

My guess would be that Tesla plans to go on doing the R&D *stay* ahead of everyone else in the industry on the batteries and charging side. So the "Superchargers" 10 years from now will be juicing up a p300d Model S++ in 10 minutes, vs the competition charging their 100kWh batteries in the 30 minutes that the Superchargers do for Teslas today.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[rockout]

And people do leave their cars at the pump and go in to buy other shit.

Yes. Those people are called Assholes.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[barc0001]

> But wouldn't it be better if you could actually do something during that 15 min?

Why, does your body shut down and paralyze you during that time? No? Then go ahead and do something. Just make sure you're back when your car gets a full charge so you're not holding up the line like a twat. Sounds to me like you even get a notification on your phone to help you gauge this.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

And pay for the privelage.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Chas]

Wow, learn-to-read moment for you Arb.

It takes 20 minutes to charge to 50% from dead flat.

Charging to 100% (which is what the article is talking about), takes about 75 minutes.

So, if the charge finishes up early, you're going to get dinged?
Or you basically have to sit there and babysit the car?

Sorry, but sitting at a gas pump for an hour and fifteen minutes is NOT the same as sitting at a supercharger for the same amount of time.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Chas]

Might be nice if Tesla came up with a way to send you an alert once your car hits 90-95%, to give you enough time to get back to the car. Rather than just relying on blatant guesswork.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

The latest shell stations in the gta that I fill up have trigger latches. Driving a small hatchback, I still don't have enough time to clean all windows before the tank is full.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

When I moved to the US from Canada this was one of the differences that I immediately appreciated. I let the car fill up automatically all the time.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, if that dispenser (not pump; the pump pumps fuel from the tank to the dispenser) has multiple types of fuel they can get whatever ones it has. Perhaps it is out of the sun or out of the rain or facing the direction they need to leave or gives a better view of the place for safety or whatever. (I often get gas at 3:00 AM and it can be dangerous if you are not paying close attention). If you want more diesel dispensers, that isn't something the gas customer is responsible for. About all you can expect is that people pull to the "front" dispenser (and they often can't even manage to do that).

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

People hate fees. I imagine it will be really effective even at only $0.40 per minute.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Immerman]

If nothing else it should discourage those assholes that leave their car at the charger overnight. $0.43/minute isn't so bad. Even $26/hour isn't a huge problem if you've had something come up. But $200+/night is more than most would want to pay on a regular basis.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's only because the Singaporean government charges like 200 percent of the vehicles MSRP by the time all of the taxes are assessed.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

90k isn't exactly luxury. I live in Switzerland, and I'd call that mid range.

Two words: Bull and Shit.

I don't care where you live, $90k USD is most definitely in the Luxury class and it not in any way in the mid-range class.

The Luxury class begins at $35k for the low-end, the thing is that these days there is increasing overlap at the non-luxury brands put more and more features in and you get stuff like $40k family sedans and $80k pickup trucks.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

if you time it you'll probably find the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m.

I cannot see how you get 10-15 minutes to fill your car with petrol - assuming that you don't have to queue. It is easily done in 5 max: 4 to self service fill up, 1 to pay at the pump with your credit card.

Yeah, does this guy live in those two states that only have full-service stations: Oregon and New Jersey? Had a friend who didn't know about that when traveling through and they looked at him like he was crazy when he got out and started pumping his own gas. When the clerk tried to explain it to him he was like "what really? Well either call the cops on me or get the fuck out of my way. I'm in a hurry."

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[tempo36]

I DO own a Tesla. 20 minutes to full charge from 15-20% is not an accurate representation of charging speed at a supercharger. It's fast, but not that fast. 20-30 minutes will put you back to 70% or so. Ps. Currently on vacation and driving a rental car. Gas station fills do not take 15-20 minutes, if so, you're doing it wrong.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[im_thatoneguy]

It would also be great if people read the post which explicitly quotes Musk citing that feature already existing.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

No. its about 50 k. Don't try to include your Shiite c class benz or shitty 3 series BMW.

Those are 35-40k and are NOT luxury. Don't even try to fool your cheap ass self. Lol

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus they molest the child after 35 minutes. 60 minutes, they get sold into sex slavery.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[JoeMerchant]

Seems to me that a "two car" charging station could provide ports for 4 cars to plug into. When there is sufficient current capacity to start charging the next car, it starts - owner need not even be present. If the first two are in their "last 20% top-up" phase, that might leave enough for a third to start their heavy/early phase charge. I understand that real-estate is often at a premium, but the waiting cars are waiting somewhere nearby, aren't they - usually?

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[JoeMerchant]

In Florida at least, roadway lighting power is provided for free to the DOT in exchange for right of way and other favors. Much cheaper all around if you can avoid a metered, or even calculated, bill for usage.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget to perform the windscreen and all windows wash,
plus polish the wing mirrors then do a front area bug removal.
Then go off to the toilet and take a slow dump, reapply makeup etc.
For bonus points get back into your car and make a long phone call...

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[tempo36]

I DO own a Tesla. They charge fast at superchargers...but not that fast. 15-20 minutes won't fill you up. If you pull in empty you might make it to 75% in 20-30 minutes, which is still way better than any other recharging. Also, if you take 15 minutes to refill a gas tank, you're doing it wrong. I'm driving a rental car with a gas tank right now...3 minutes maybe.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[MindStalker]

There is a row of Tesla chargers at my local movie theatre. It's never full, but I couldn't imagine someone wanting to run out during the movie to move their car. This issue will be solved once they are self driving, it could find a spot after is done charging.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[TellarHK]

If there are three open pumps in a row, and the one at the far end is the one with diesel? Tough shit, I'm taking it. Why? Because it's more efficient for everyone involved if there's a straight on drive up, drive straight out arrangement based on time of arrival. I'm not taking my time and wasting it on checking out every available pump so I can avoid the one with the green handle.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Scarletdown]

The poster is an idiot. Most places either have a diesel only pump, or all the pumps have a diesel option.

If you're in Oregon, it doesn't matter anyhow since it's illegal to pump your own gas. So you spend at least a half an hour waiting for the kid to finish smoking his joint before spilling gas all over the side of your car.

That has changed somewhat. Now, at gas stations that allow it, you can pump your own between 6:00 in the evening and 6:00 in the morning.

Also, stations on reservations (like the Arrowhead Plaza outside of Pendleton) are self serve all the time, not subject to Oregon's restrictions (and previous ban) on self serve.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Scarletdown]

Plus, gas pumps always seem to frequently shut off way too soon (often within seconds of starting), so if you are trying to do your windows while letting the fuel flow unattended, the whole process will likely take even longer due to having to stop washing the windows several times to get the pump working again.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Just put a coffee vending machine next to the charger so humans can also recharge in place.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't figure out how long to wait until you pick up your Tesla or your kid? There will be an app for that.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[stripes]

Or the poster lives somewhere that does it different from where you are?

In CA (my part at least) the gas stations that have diesel vary in how they do it, but a dedicated diesel pump is kind of rare (2 of the ~12 gas stations in my town have one). Having a small number of the pumps have mixed diesel and gas pumps (but only a few of the pumps have diesel) is far more common (about 8 do that), or deciding that diesel isn't worth selling (the other 4). None in town have as many diesel pumps as gas pumps.

I can't remember being to a gas station in CA that does, although I would assume some exist (maybe in or around truck stops?).

It has been over a decade, but I remember MD and VA being similar, but I payed less attention because I didn't own a diesel there.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[stripes]

My guess is if other companies catch up they will pick a more normal sounding name. Well if most other companies catch up, I think Mitsubishi has a fast charge system that seems similar, but since the car has such a tiny range it ends up with a 5 minute charge time so I'm not really sure if it is quite equivalent. I believe at least one commercial bus company also has a fast DC charge system.

Other then that it is like nobody else is even trying...

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Barsteward]

this is what i rebutted with 75 minutes "A charge to 100% is over 2 hours." https://www.tesla.com/supercha...

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[drinkypoo]

Meanwhile, they're forced to take public transit every other day in Paris due to pollution from...diesel.

That is a lie, and you are repeating it like a good little useful idiot. It's due to pollution from...combustion. That's it. The gassers produce more harmful soot than the diesels.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[drinkypoo]

I would have loved to be able to get a diesel Ranger pick-up.

I want a classic HiLux diesel, barring that, I want a Nissan Patrol diesel. One of the older ones, from when they were just trucks, with no fancy car-like amenity bullshit. They have both of them all over Panama and in particular the Nissan Patrol standard cab standard bed has precisely the form factor I want. It is really precisely the size I think a pickup truck should be.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

This post is stupid. It takes less than 5 minutes to pull up to a pump, fill car, and drive away.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[RockDoctor]

Chill, dude. You're way too stressed if someone cleaning their windshield at a gas pump is bothering you.

Since petrol stations have the water dispenser (charged, of course) to one side of the forecourt where it doesn't block the pumps, actually it is a significant deal. You fill your tank, go to the office, pay, then move your car either back onto the road, or to the side of the forecourt to water/ air/ windscreen/ vacuum clean or whatever else you're doing. All of thse machines are coin operated, precisely to discourage people from wasting the petrol station's valuable sq.metre-seconds on low-return activities like wiping screens, drinking coffee, etc.

Some petrol stations have parking spaces for you to stop at as you drink your coffee, but not normally in town. Land is too valuable to waste it on people sitting on it not actively paying for it.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[PopeRatzo]

Since petrol stations have the water dispenser (charged, of course) to one side of the forecourt where it doesn't block the pumps, actually it is a significant deal.

Your use of "petrol" and "forecourt" indicate you are not in America, so let me remind you that in the US, we have intersections where there are gas stations on all four corners. We have so many gas stations that many Americans will take up two pumps worth of space with their giant SUVs. Not because they need that much room, but because they can.

We have so many gas stations, that we have the luxury of having a favorite brand of gas, because we know we can always find that logo if we go six more blocks.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Dayze!Confused]

Except that you pump your own diesel in Oregon.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

> the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m

Only if your process includes getting up off your couch, finding your car keys, finding your pants, and driving to and from the gas station.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[brunes69]

So you go have a coffee, and when it's charged your phone beeps and you walk back to move it. What's the big deal?? You make it sound like you have to walk a mile. It's across a parking lot.

Re: It might be an issue in the future

[Mr D from 63]

I made it sound like you have to walk a mile? Funny how people read things

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Askmum]

They take a while to charge? Do you even own a TESLA? It takes ~15m if you're higher than 25% battery. It's 20m if it's dead flat. Incidentally, if you time it you'll probably find the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m.

20 minutes to charge from an empty battery? Have there been significant improvements in charging rates recently? All available videos about Tesla charging on youtube show 1 hour+ times for a complete charge. Tesla themselves say it will take 80 minutes. The maximum a supercharger will give you is some 120 kW, and that will only happen on an empty battery, so the quickest you could charge a 60 kW Tesla is 30 minutes, a 100 kW Tesla would need a minimum of 50 minutes. And I have mentioned that 120 kW only happens on an empty battery so real life charging times will be like Tesla states: about 80 minutes for a full charge.
Not 20.
Do you even own a Tesla or have you ever taken an interest in or read about the technology?

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Cro Magnon]

Time it. Time how long it takes to pull off, put your card into the machine, watch it fumble around and ask you for a zipcode or a pin or whatever (or however long you have to stand in line), and all the other shit before you're back on the road.

I have. It takes about 3-5 minutes to fill my car, empty my bladder, and buy eats & drinks. Even when I hit a long line, it's well under 15.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Your Tesla tells you when you car will finish charging

Then this fee should be based on the later of the predicted filltime or actual filltime. Because "You have 30 minutes, if late you will be charged" is fairly reasonable, but "You have 2 minutes from now" because the other guy unplugged and you filled up faster" is less so.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuel capacities of both Ford's top-selling F150 and Chevy's top-selling Silverado top-out at 36 gallons. The Ford F350 tops out at 48 gallons. Try trolling a non-American forum.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Cramer]

If the pumps are working properly, it doesn't take "~10-15min" to fill a car. And in NC, it's illegal to walk away from your car ("leave unattended") while it's being fueled. People do it all the time, 'tho; it occasionally leads to fires, and absent minded idiots driving away with the nozzle still in the car.

This is simply a move to teach people that those are not "parking spaces". As is today, people will occupy those spaces for 30+ min at a time.

(I've filled the RV in less time, and that's a f'ing 80gal tank.)

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Cramer]

Because it's actually *one* PUMP -- at the storage tank -- with 15 dispensers attached to it. The "old timey" stations had maybe 4 dispensers, and only one or two in use at a time. Ever notice how much your "pump" speeds up when someone else leaves? Above ground storage tanks also helps. (gravity) I've not seen any above ground tanks (outside of race tracks and farms) in decades. (takes up valuable space, and idiots *WILL* shoot them)

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Cramer]

You totally missed the "strap tanks" part... Mad Max technology (i.e. two 55gal drums in the bed)

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Cramer]

Indeed. If one station is full, I can go to the one across the street. I literally can't count how many are around my house. I stop counting at a dozen. And I know I'm forgetting more than I remember.

Re:It might be an issue in the future

[Cramer]

Have you actually timed yourself? The whole process -- open the port, uncoil the cable, plug in, and the reverse when leaving -- takes 1-2min. Every. Time. You. Park. If you're doing that everywhere you go, that adds up quickly. Sure, it doesn't seem like much when you're doing it, but that ~90s 8-10-12 times a day, every day, is a great deal of time. Of course, your "fuel" is free, so there is that.

phone

[Anonymous Coward]

So is it going to be mandatory to have a phone with you to get said alert?

Re: phone

[Anonymous Coward]

So who can afford a Tesla but not a phone?

This is 100% fair.

Re:phone

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can afford to own a tesla, this isn't a problem.

I only know 2 Luddites who purposely use flip phones. They 'think' it helps protect them from the government... (They are obviously wrong, but I always want to pat them on their heads like they are 4 year olds who just learned to tie their shoes)

Now there IS something to be said about not giving location data to google, etc... but that is corporate.. and still a different thing until Trump... ohh screw it I'll get tagged as flame bait if I say he's [censored by Making America Great Again for Corporations ]

Re: phone

[Mr D from 63]

So who can afford a Tesla but not a phone?

This is 100% fair.

What if your phone is charging?

Re: phone

[Ichijo]

Then you should take away its credit card.

Re:phone

[naughtynaughty]

If you don't have a phone or a watch with you and an unable to mentally estimate how long 10 minutes is then simply get your latte and return to your car.

Or skip the money from the latte purchase and buy a watch at the nearest Dollar Store.

Your $100k Tesla will tell you when it will be fully charged.

If you still can't figure it out, you probably should be using Uber/Lyft instead of driving.

Re: phone

[naughtynaughty]

Phones work while they are charging.

Go to your nearest Apple Genius Bar for further help using your iPhone.

Re: phone

[Mr D from 63]

Phones work while they are charging.

Go to your nearest Apple Genius Bar for further help using your iPhone.

So, then just sit in your car with the phone. What a brilliant solution you have there.

Re:phone

[Barsteward]

doh... get a watch then.

Re: phone

[swillden]

Phones work while they are charging.

Go to your nearest Apple Genius Bar for further help using your iPhone.

So, then just sit in your car with the phone. What a brilliant solution you have there.

Phones can be charged places other than cars. There are even portable battery packs.

In reality, though, this is a non-problem. If you're at a supercharger station it's because you've been driving a long distance, and almost certainly had your phone charging in the car while driving. Also, even without the phone notification, when you plug your car in to charge you get a fairly decent estimate of what time it will be finished... so just be back to the car around then.

Re: phone

[Mr D from 63]

You have a gift of problem solving, It appears at the expense of a sense of humor.

Re: phone

[freeze128]

Ha! That's why I have a gas powered phone!

Re: phone

[Anonymous Coward]

And before somebody brings up that you might not have phone service, if you're where a Supercharger is, you have phone service.

Re:phone

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're going to do that, burner phone, new phone at least every few weeks, pay only with cash, different store every time, don't take your old phone with you to get the new one.

Re: phone

[swillden]

You appear to confuse sarcasm with humor.

Re: phone

[Mr D from 63]

Nice try.

Re: phone

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he's 100% correct, your being deliberately obtuse.

Re: phone

[LynnwoodRooster]

When I'm not in my car, how can I charge my iPhone? I'm listening to my Lightning earbuds after all...

Re: phone

[Mr D from 63]

Are you serious? because I wasn't.

Re: phone

[LynnwoodRooster]

Same vein as you... ;)

Re: phone

[Mr D from 63]

LOL, now I see it, you are ahead of me!

Re: phone

[LynnwoodRooster]

It's the perfect storm: hipsters in Starbucks, Telsa, AND Apple!

Re: phone

[Cro Magnon]

So who can afford a Tesla but not a phone?

This is 100% fair.

After buying a Tesla, I wouldn't have enough left to afford a phone.

AKA

[rmdingler]

The selfish jerk rule

Re:AKA

[Zocalo]

Pretty much. This seems like a very reasonable move from Tesla given the fuel pump analogy and it applies to everyone; today you might be the jerk hogging the pump, but tomorrow it might be you doing the waiting. I'm not familiar with the App, but presumably Tesla owners also get some kind of indication through the App of when charging is expected to reach 100%, and should have some kind of idea of charging times after a few cycles anyway, so it's not really a case of "You've got five minutes to move your car!" so much as "You *should* already be on your way, so this is just a polite reminder in case you 'forgot'."

Re:AKA

[rmdingler]

I'm not familiar with the App, but presumably Tesla owners also get some kind of indication through the App of when charging is expected to reach 100%...

If there's not an App like this, someone should get to work monetizing it.

Better yet, many fueling stations of a more traditional type already sell fuel as a loss leader to entice customers into a small store with large markups. Perhaps the charging stations could monetize these 15-20 minute waits?

Re:AKA

[drinkypoo]

The move is NOT different from the so-called zipper method, where cars merge at the point of merging. If San Francisco doesn't want people merging all over the place, they shouldn't create all these artificial merge points in the form of bus stops. The buses don't go where you need them to go anyway. San Francisco is the poster child for needing PRT because their bus drivers are the poster children for being fuckheads, and because the city is not laid out such that buses can get you around usefully.

Re:AKA

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a definite mentality of this. I've seen Tesla owners whining online about how upset that they are that some Leaf owner had unplugged their fully charged 100k car to charge their 30k car. They were flipping out that you DON'T TOUCH a car that expensive. And that's at a public charger, the Tesla has to use an adapter to connect to it.

Re:AKA

[SvnLyrBrto]

The superchargers are already located and spaced in a manner to allow exactly what you described. Their website listings for the superchargers still even have listings for restaurants, coffee shops, and the like, in the vicinity of the superchargers. They're there to solve the "road trip" problem with electric cars; no to be anyone's everyday charging solution though.

This is an interesting move, because it's a reversal of Tesla's original messaging wrt/ the superchargers. The idea very much was, and was communicated as such, that supercharging was supposed to be a somewhat leisurely affair. You stop, plug in, go to the bathroom, stretch your legs, have lunch (At the Harris Ranch supercharger), and maybe get some shopping in (At the Gilroy Outlets shopping center supercharger.), and THEN you go back to the supercharger for the rest of the trip to SoCal.

Re:AKA

[fahrbot-bot]

"One would never leave a car parked at a gas station right at the pump and the same rule applies with Superchargers," read Tesla's announcement. How will one know that it's done and you need to scoot? Why, one will get an alert on one's phone, of course, via the Tesla app. One already does, in fact. So one never had any excuse.

I was just thinking that this "One" guy seems pretty jerky, but he could just be busy dealing with his alternate selves from the multiverse while his car is charging.

Re:AKA

[Solandri]

Totally different. The situation in the link you've given is someone basically cutting in line. Not only do they unfairly get in front of everyone else who waited, they also exacerbate the slowdown by making the line they just skipped over longer.

This charger situation is more analogous to the guy who is busy doing something else and doesn't notice the light has turned green. He's in his rightful place in line, but his slow response causes everyone behind him to have to wait longer.

That said, this is also an EV charging station problem. Aside from Costco, I've rarely had to wait in line to fill up on gas. The number of "pumps" needed scales with the number of cars wanting to fill up, with the average time it takes to fill up, and the inverse of the range on a fill-up. A fill-up at a Supercharger takes approx 10x longer than at a gas pump, and the range (150 miles) is approx 1/3 what you get from a tank of gas. So if we're hypothesizing replacing all ICE vehicles with EVs, we need 30x as many Supercharger plug-in spaces as there currently are gas pumps along major highways. This is the case even if every EV owner pulled out the moment their charge was completed. (The requirement is lessened considerably close to home where people can recharge in their garage).

That's why I still think the long-term solution is going to be swappable batteries, or renting an ICE car for long trips, or replacing long highway trips with trains ferrying cars. The only solution to this problem on the EV side is replacing batteries with supercapacitors, which have their own problems.

Re:AKA

[rmdingler]

This charger situation is more analogous to the guy who is busy doing something else and doesn't notice the light has turned green. He's in his rightful place in line, but his slow response causes everyone behind him to have to wait longer.

I've been that guy, so when I'm right behind that guy, I try to impart a bit of patience in empathy.

When I'm three cars back? Different story altogether. I'm testing the horn.

Re:AKA

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised. A zipper merge at the point of merge is the most efficient way of moving traffic when there's enough cars backed up to queue in both lanes. That seems to be what they're describing.

Re:AKA

[wildsurf]

So if we're hypothesizing replacing all ICE vehicles with EVs, we need 30x as many Supercharger plug-in spaces as there currently are gas pumps along major highways.

Taking into account both home-charging and destination-charging, I think you're right back down to 1x. On top of that, charging speeds will only ever get faster over the next 5-10 years. So there will likely never need to be as many EV supercharging spots as there are gas pumps now.

Re:AKA

[drinkypoo]

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised. A zipper merge at the point of merge is the most efficient way of moving traffic when there's enough cars backed up to queue in both lanes. That seems to be what they're describing.

I'm not surprised. If you've driven in San Francisco you know that the majority of people there are operating way, way above their pay grade in the traffic there. If a lot of people aren't using the right hand lane when it's not right turn only, then sure it might look like someone is being an asshole. But what's actually happening is that nobody knows how to drive. I enjoy this factor greatly on 19th ave, which I pretty much use only between Sloat and the GG now. Almost the only trip I make to/through the city is to go down to Santa Cruz from up near Hopland, so I cut off at Sloat to get to Skyline. This takes you past TPC harding park/community golf course, which is a nice place to stretch your legs and take a piss. It also dodges that stupid fucking mall, and the light rail crossings. I think there's even another back way kind of by the Presidio, but that road has been closed off and on for ages so I forget how it works.

The average driver in SF is a complete fucking dildo, their incompetence exceeded only by their bus drivers.

Re:AKA

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, in most of the rest of the world that’s called the “overly sensitive, sentimental, snowflake” rule. See, people who live in cultures that don’t celebrate the cult of the victim value rational, critical thinking and can recognize that the most efficient – and fairest – way to deal with lane mergers is to continue to use the lane up until it ends and then merge.

If traffic merges before the lane ends, it creates something akin to the old VESA Local Bus allowing the cars in the outer, merging lane to zoom past the cars in the inner thru lane – in my experience at a ratio of at least 3 to 1. However, waiting until the end to merge forces a 1 to 1 parity, hence the comparison to a zipper.

Re:AKA

[rpstrong]

A zipper merge involves two lanes merging into one, where each of the feeder lanes is essentially moving at the same speed. The 'jerk merge' involves cutting into a slow lane from a fast lane, which disrupts the fast lane.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

One...

[XSportSeeker]

Damnit One! Ruining it for everyone.

Re: One...

[thegarbz]

Damnit One! Ruining it for everyone.

That doesn't make any sense. One person leaving his car at a supercharger too long is ruining it for who? The others who leave their car at the supercharger too long?

Re: One...

[Stephan Schulz]

Damnit One! Ruining it for everyone.

That doesn't make any sense. One person leaving his car at a supercharger too long is ruining it for who? The others who leave their car at the supercharger too long?

Everybody else who needs to charge their car, maybe while on the way to stop a new fracking bore hole near the San Andreas rift, or to stop Dr. Evil from testing his new device under Yellowstone, or maybe just of a way to perform brain surgery on the child that will in 20 years defend the planet against the Bugs from Outer Space.

Re: One...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or performing surgery on a child, who turns out to be a major class psychopath and the surgeon will have to hunt him down to alleviate the guilt of saving such a horrible person.

Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

People leave their cars at the self-service pumps all the time near me. Even when the place is really busy, Because, you see, they're so much more important than anyone else.

There should be an app for that

[Applehu Akbar]

You should be able to launch an app that says 'plugging in to charge now' and having it bing you at Starbucks when the charge reaches, say, 95%. It would not be difficult to stipulate that all charging stations be WiFi equipped to support this.

Re:There should be an app for that

[naughtynaughty]

Or maybe every Tesla car can already communicate with your smart phone using a cellular network and maybe there is already an app from Tesla that does exactly that:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/ap...

Re:There should be an app for that

[Applehu Akbar]

Kudos to Tesla for doing this, but this is not a brand-specific problem. What about all those electric econoboxes out there?

Re:There should be an app for that

[drinkypoo]

Kudos to Tesla for doing this, but this is not a brand-specific problem. What about all those electric econoboxes out there?

As far as I can tell, every EV coming out now has connectivity features like this. The Leaf has always had this functionality, and it's not exactly a luxury car. It would be trivial to add to any EV. For old ones, you'd need some kind of voltage monitor module. For new ones, you can presumably query the computer to find out charge status.

Re:There should be an app for that

[Lemmeoutada Collecti]

I have a Chevrolet Volt, and it can e-mail or text me when charging is complete. It also provides an estimated charge time which is pretty accurate. While it doesn't Supercharge, I suspect that notification is a pretty common feature for EVs.

Re:There should be an app for that

[DarkVader]

My Ford messages me when it's charged too.

Re:There should be an app for that

[Anonymous Coward]

My Ford dealer messages me when he wants to charge me.

Re:There should be an app for that

[tepples]

Or maybe every Tesla car can already communicate with your smart phone using a cellular network

Unless the owner's phone is both out of cellular data for the month and out of range of open Wi-Fi.

Re:There should be an app for that

[SuiteSisterMary]

I don't know if the sort of person who can afford a Tesla is also the sort of person who has limited cell phone plans.

But if that's the case, then you set a damn timer on your phone.

Two comments

[cellocgw]

First, if you're really interested in this issue, read the FB Tesla Owner's page for a while. The non-flame comments from actual Tesla owners are worth reading thru.

Second, my humble contribution: the fine should only apply if all the slots at a given charging station are full. If there's open slots, leave things as-is.

Re:Two comments

[naughtynaughty]

Complications confuse people. Tesla simply, reasonably, wants people to train themselves to not use Supercharger spots as parking spots.

Re:Two comments

[Anonymous Coward]

I know the super-charger station in my town, because it is is an area where there is limited parking (University), people have been using it as a parking spot. Tesla pays the University for the spot as a form of advertising, and people plug in their car and leave it all day, rather than charge for a half hour and continue on their trip like it was designed for.

Re:Two comments

[Anonymous Coward]

Elon has already tweeted that they are going to change the policy along those lines - you will only be charged if most (all?) spots are occupied. There are a lot of chargers outside of southern California that are mostly empty, so they realized this was punitive for no reason in those cases...

A better way...

[markdavis]

There is an easier and better solution to this. The chargers talk to each other. There should be no need to move your car if there are still several available chargers. If they are down to just one (or two) free charger left, THEN notify the others they have to move in 5 min and assess the fees.

Charging can take a long time, and if you are dining or shopping, stopping to run and move your car will be a pain. What if you are in a checkout line? What if you haven't paid for lunch? The method I describes can make more people happy, no?

Re:A better way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well how about just charging at home and not worrying about having to more you damn car.

Re:A better way...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are in a checkout line, then suddenly the tesla charger turns into a meter maid, charging you a whopping $4 per ten minutes that your car sits there.If your checkout line is taking an hour+, you probably need to find a different place to shop.

Re:A better way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I hope they adopt this method. But, as electric cars outpace the charging infrastructure, it will become a bigger problem in the future.

Re:A better way...

[Anonymous Coward]

If that's the case, a $4 parking fee for being 15 minutes late is a small price to pay for extra convenience. You should always be aware of your social responsibility.

Re:A better way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Once the car is charged and you send a message to the owner that you'll get charged in 5 minutes it might not be enough time for the owner to get to the vehicle. I think a minimum of 15 minutes is necessary, but with a fully charged car and when there's only one or two spaces left it may not be enough time for the owner to get to the car given that the alert means that you should get to your car ASAP (5min), it's just way easier to provide a notification at 15 min or so before full charge, vs waiting for the filled spots to be down to one or two.

Re:A better way...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it will confuse them, because there's no way to calculate when you will have to move your car.

Assuming that after the first few times, you have a fair idea how long it will take to charge your car from a particular level, you should have a good idea how long you'll have before you need to move it.

With your idea, it could be anywhere from that time, to an infinite amount of time. People aren't good at making judgements based on the worst case scenario, so most people will assume they have more time than they do.

Re:A better way...

[markdavis]

I am not saying it shouldn't still notify them when the charging is done.... just saying it should not fine them if there is no need.

Re:A better way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Charging only takes a long time if you are pushing > 80% battery capacity. Supperchargers are intended to be used for distance travel and the auto-routing software has you hitting them at near empty because they can dump a SHITTON of power into an empty battery, but have to back off as the battery nears capacity. It's actually more efficient travel time to stop more often and charge from 5%->60/70% then it is to push the batter pack to 100%. Of course, if you have time to waste or the SC isn't packed, charging to 100% gives you plenty of time to get lunch/dinner.

Re:A better way...

[Anonymous Coward]

I get this feeling someone told you once "Just listen to what I'm telling you and follow the grammar rules." If you didn't listen to them, why should mark listen to you?

Re:A better way...

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck that.

Tesla charging takes 10min from 50%, 15min from 25%

2 slots can fill up within a minute. Those asshats should move their cars once charging is done.

Sure it's in the annoying territory of too long time to stand around and too short of time to do anything else, but that's life. No excuse to be narcisstic asshole

First checked bag still free?

[sinij]

The fees start rolling in. Enjoy your "car as a service".

Re:First checked bag still free?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bother trying to talk sense to these people. To them, you're too stupid to know what's best for you.

Re:First checked bag still free?

[Jeremi]

How's the alternative working out for you? They don't make you pay any fees at gas stations, do they?

Re:First checked bag still free?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't bother trying to talk sense to these people. To them, you're too stupid to know what's best for you.

How's the alternative working out for you? They don't make you pay any fees at gas stations, do they?

Told ya! :)

Re:First checked bag still free?

[LynnwoodRooster]

I generally don't spend 20-120 minutes at a gas station filling my vehicle...

How do they actually know who to bill?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, Tesla knows I own a particular vehicle, but they don't have my credit card or bank account. Nor that I am driving. Most supercharger stations are unattended.. So if I decide to camp out in a spot:
a) where do they send the bill
b) how do they collect

I suppose they'll put up a sign that says "charging here is consent to pay", but I don't see them going to collection or lawsuit for a few bucks.

Rich Folks parking spots.

[Anonymous Coward]

Since they are paying, rich folks will now feel entitled to use the super charge station as a parking spot. Why get out of the way for a lowly model 3.

One

[mwvdlee]

One has an obsessive compulsive disorder, one thinks.

Car should unplug and move itself

[Anonymous Coward]

Since we're moving towards self driving cars, the next step for TESLA should be to have the car unplug and move itself after having completed charge.

Re:Car should unplug and move itself

[ColdWetDog]

Since we're moving towards self driving cars, the next step for TESLA should be to have the car unplug and move itself after having completed charge.

Just as soon as Tesla sells the little robot that unplugs the car as an accessory. Driving off with the wires still attached seems, well, expensive.

Re:Car should unplug and move itself

[Anonymous Coward]

Since we're moving towards self driving cars, the next step for TESLA should be to have the car unplug and move itself after having completed charge.

Just as soon as Tesla sells the little robot that unplugs the car as an accessory. Driving off with the wires still attached seems, well, expensive.

Very strange that you would suggest a robot. Make a plug that can self detach and retract. What's hard about that?

getting users to MOVE FROM CHARGING STATION

[Mr Foobar]

I don't know if this is possible yet, but how about when your car is charged your given a leeway time and then if you don't remove your car it starts DISCHARGING the BATTERY. An app could let you know when it's almost fully charged (the time preference would be yours) and then you would be ready to be there when your car is fully charged.

Re: getting users to MOVE FROM CHARGING STATION

[drinkypoo]

The only way that would really be useful is if you plugged the nose of your car in to charge, and someone else could plug into its arse and steal your charge if you were plugged in too long. But THAT could only be useful if the cars could transfer charge between themselves at very rapid rates...

Re: getting users to MOVE FROM CHARGING STATION

[Talderas]

Tesla-centipede.

car needs to be smarter

[John_Sauter]

If these cars are smart enough to drive themselves on the highway, why can't they drive themselves away from the charger when they are full, and park themselves? Even better, drop you at the shopping center, go get charged up, then park until you are done shopping and summon them.

Re:car needs to be smarter

[crow]

Yes, they've already said that's the long-term plan. The problem is that older cars won't ever be able to drive away, and the Superchargers can't unplug themselves yet.

Re:car needs to be smarter

[drinkypoo]

If these cars are smart enough to drive themselves on the highway, why can't they drive themselves away from the charger when they are full, and park themselves?

They're not clever enough to do that safely yet. That's why Tesla tells you to use autopilot only on the highway, where the environment is generally less complicated. Eventually they will likely have a fully automated driving solution, but they don't now.

Re:car needs to be smarter

[vel-ex-tech]

I hope you and the people who modded up you are the next people to get killed by autopilot because you were too fucking stupid to realize that "autopilot" != self-driving or driverless.

0.40 / minute after buying a $90k car

[tomhath]

Do they really think someone who owns a Tesla will care about that fee? Especially if that person has walked to the local Starbucks to buy a $4 cup of bitter coffee while they wait.

Re:0.40 / minute after buying a $90k car

[rmdingler]

Do they really think someone who owns a Tesla will care about that fee? Especially if that person has walked to the local Starbucks to buy a $4 cup of bitter coffee while they wait.

You wouldn't think so, but folks will drive to the other side of the city for gas that's a few cents cheaper per gallon, to fill a 16 gallon gas tank...

10-15 mins to fill your car with gas?

[bjdevil66]

Incidentally, if you time it you'll probably find the whole process of filling your car with gas takes ~10-15m. Their change is completely reasonable

Whether the electric car charge time is reasonable or not is 100% subjective, but your estimate of gas filling times is a ridiculous, "+1 for TESLA" exaggeration. From turning off the car to tearing off a receipt and driving away (paying by credit card at the pump), a complete 16-20 gallon tank fill-up is 3 minutes tops anywhere I buy gas. Maybe tack on an extra minute or two for a huge truck or SUV.

I suppose it could take 10-15 minutes to fill your car if you walk in to pay and you get stuck standing in line behind ten other 44 oz. soda carrying people who all pay with debit cards - while your car sits completely filled up most of the time? Or maybe someone's filling a 1 gallon portable tank 16-20 times and pouring it into their car's tank manually? Maybe they're using huge measuring cups?

One would never leave a car parked at a gas pump

[EmagGeek]

Hah, bullshit. I see people pump gas, leave their car at the pump, and go inside and do 30 minutes of shopping for beer, ho-hos, beef jerky, and lottery tickets (which they insist on scratching off right there at the counter before they walk away).

Hope

[jgullstr]

we hope to never make any money from it

Imagine their disappointment should their hopes shatter.

Re:Hope

[SeaFox]

He should have said the fees would be donated to a charity as part of the announcement.

Re:Hope

[wildsurf]

He should have said the fees would be donated to a charity as part of the announcement.

Or to Exxon Mobil for oil exploration. That'd get people to move their cars!

One would never leave a car parked at a gas statio

[sims 2]

Why yes they do! The gas stations here pretty much force you to by making the pumps take 10+ minutes to fill your 15 gallon gas tank.

They do this to force people to go inside out of the heat or cold so they might buy something other than gas since it's not legal to leave your car running while filling (the backpressure on most newer vehicles will cause problems if you try anyway)

introduces fee? why not 'fine'

[yes-but-no]

I thought English had a word for that ..it's called fine. Tesla fines users for...

Re:introduces fee? why not 'fine'

[tepples]

My first benefit-of-the-doubt guess is that governments have reserved the use of the word "fine" for their own user fees, and Tesla could get fined for referring to its fees as "fines".

40c a minute for a $100k car owner?

[GameboyRMH]

I think it would take at least $4 per minute to provide any motivation to the kind of person who can afford a Tesla.

Re:40c a minute for a $100k car owner?

[Vegan Cyclist]

Exactly. And at the current rate, $4 for 10mins of parking is cheap in some areas. This is also ripe for abuse in this respect..and I'm astounded people are complaining about $0.40 per minute, it's actually not very much at all.

Re:40c a minute for a $100k car owner?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. $24 dollars for one hour. If you can afford 100,000 USD car, $24 will be almost meaningless to you.

Re:40c a minute for a $100k car owner?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean there are parking places that charge $25 or more an hour?
Here I've seen up to €4 an hour, and I think that it's already ridiculously expensive, but 5-6 times as much?
How many hours of work do you have to do to park a car for an hour?

Re:40c a minute for a $100k car owner?

[bool2]

I agree. A better penalty would be a one month ban after the first warning.

Re:40c a minute for a $100k car owner?

[Vegan Cyclist]

This wouldn't be an average spot of course, but if a Tesla charger is in a prime location, it could be worth it. Or compare to being towed, a lot cheaper than that. ;)

In most instances I agree it's not going to be cheaper, but I bet there will be places that this will be 'a deal'.

Cheap parking!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, $50/hour vs $0.40/min? Cheapest parking in my area, gonna go shopping.

Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Khyber]

"One would never leave a car parked at a gas station right at the pump"

Guess they've never been so middle-class as to have to use a combo gas station/chain restaurant before. 76+Subway, anyone?

Just goes even further to show that Tesla is sorely out of touch with societal reality.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[thegarbz]

Lol wtf are you smoking. What you are saying is definitely not the norm. And I'm not even picking on American culture here, it's not the norm in America either.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Anonymous Coward]

Those places also have additional parking and every time I've been to one I pull out from the pump into a normal parking space to go eat.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't even imagine being the kind of scumbag who'd leave a car at the pump - you can't leave it while it's fueling - so, why not just move. THAT is the whole point here - if there were a way to charge people at the pumps they should do that too.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you leave your car at the pump instead of moving to a parking spot, then you're still a dick. "Middle class" or not.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[SeaFox]

Guess they've never been so middle-class as to have to use a combo gas station/chain restaurant before. 76+Subway, anyone?

You're not supposed to leave your car AT THE PUMP while you go eat. You get your gas and then park at one of the normal parking spaces in front of the store before you go in for lunch.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[DaTrueDave]

I've don't think I've ever seen anyone park at the pump while going inside to sit down and eat.

Run in to grab something to eat/drink? Sure.

Go in for over 20 minutes? Only jerks would do that.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you leave your car at the pump while you eat supper, you are a dick.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you leave your car at the pump, I expect that you will be doing nothing other than paying for the gas and immediately returning to your car to move it from the pump. If you plan on doing any other shopping, please move your car to a proper parking space.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[radarskiy]

What gas station to do you go that allows you to leave your car unattended?

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Anonymous Coward]

Every single one where you have to wait ten or more minutes in line to you pay before you're even allowed to pump your gas.

E.G most large ones in large cities.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or perhaps they're just trying to discourage trailer-park squatter mentality at their chargers.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, Dipshit, you don't stay at the gas pump while you go eat. You get dumber with each passing day, Alex.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Khyber]

This is funny coming from a moron who obviously never leaves the house, otherwise you'd know that quite often these places have FULL LOTS, thus your only choice is to stay parked at the pump.

Try getting out of your fucking cave, child, and go see the world.

Re:Tesla employees not pleb enough...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are such a funny little boy. I've traveled the country and no one leaves their car at the pump. It is a completely douche bag thing to do. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if YOU do it as you are obviously a narcissist. You are one of these prima donnas who thinks he is better than everyone else and doesn't care about other people. So, yes, I could see YOU doing it. But the reality is that no normal person would.

I love that I am so under your skin... I find it hilarious!

one wants to thwow up

[Anonymous Coward]

one wants to know who wrote that bizarre third-person British English flashback article

Better idea to combat those with deep pockets...

[Anonymous Coward]

Start discharging the battery back to the grid after the 5m at 100%

Those who can afford a Tesla are going to give a rats ass about a "late fee"

Stop gap

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like a stop gap... To really solve the problem, they need have the car move itself. They've developed robotic, automated chargers. They've developed autonomous driving systems that are at least capable of safely changing parking spots. Make it happen.

40 cents a minute? "ouch"? no...

[fyngyrz]

Also, if someone can afford a Tesla, $4.00 per ten minutes? That's not going to make a motivational dent for most. And yes, the whole "I paid to sit there, STFU" attitude and the wealthy... it's not an unlikely fit at all. Many of these are the same people who have no problem saying "What, you have cancer? No money? Die, then. You don't "deserve" healthcare." A lot of such folks hang out right here on slashdot. They're pretty easy to spot for the most part.

"Me first, fuck you and your family" is the core mantra of the selfish. And the US population is riddled with selfish.

Re:40 cents a minute? "ouch"? no...

[ArmoredDragon]

Don't these cars have the ability to self-park? Why not the ability to move themselves and park away from the charger when they're finished?

How about...

[fyngyrz]

Teslas can self-park. Perhaps Tesla (the company) should figure out a way to retrieve the charging connection, and then have the car move itself to a nearby parking space when done. Automagically. There are plenty of challenges, but probably this is what needs to happen eventually.

Re:How about...

[Jbcarpen]

I'd mod you insightful if I had points.

Re:How about...

[fyngyrz]

Not to worry. moderation on slashdot is essentially random. There are responsible modders, "I disagree" modders, stalker modders, "I agree" modders, agenda-driven modders and "I don't like this person modders" Anything positive is lost in the noise, and there is zero accountability, so none of this ever ends. I generally mod up anons, because they contribute a lot at times, and the system unfairly discounts what they have to say. Whereupon some twerp is just as likely to reverse my mods, because that damn poster had the TEMERITY to post anonymously. Ah, slashdot. How to do it wrong, with authority.

But I do appreciate the thought. :)

Re: Whaaaa?

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if u will suicide will a bab y be sacrificed.

Oh this sounds so friendly

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Tesla Introduces Fee For Owners...

Oh this sounds so friendly....

Tesla: "Hi, we're Tesla, and we'd like to introduce you to our new fee. Well, it's not really a "fee", that's such a harsh word, ha ha. We're just going to charge you by the minute for not immediately moving your car. We like to think of it as a 'getting to know you and your wallet' kinda thing. And of course if you don't pay us, we'll turn off your car. Gosh, we hope that doesn't happen while you're zooming down the highway!"

Re:Oh this sounds so friendly

[Anonymous Coward]

They should give the money to the people who are waiting for you to move.

Assess

[wonkey_monkey]

If drivers don't move their cars within 5 minutes of the car hitting 100 percent, the fee will begin to assess.

It'll begin to assess what?

Is there a timer - or just an alert?

[kwerle]

OK - there is an alert when it's done. Is there a timer counting down?

Fee is a bad idea, Wait next time is better.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Fees would not always have the effect you want. There was a famous study, where a child care charged fees if the parents do not show up by closing time. Parents who used to feel guilty about keeping them waiting and forcing them to keep the center open beyond the closing time, who were very apologetic and tried to minimize it started feeling entitled. "Here is the fee, stay open for one hour just for me!".

Tesla owners are affluent, they will not be deterred by fees. However they will be deterred by time penalty. If you overstay for 10 minutes, they you must park the car in the penalty zone for 5 minutes before driving off, or for 5 minutes before you could charge next time. If the penalty area is marked well, people will feel the nasty eye of fellow Tesla owners, and seriously try to avoid it. Penalty is silent and secret. Shaming would motivate them better.

This could have opposite of intended effect

[scatbomb]

In the book Freakanomics they described the results of a daycare that tried putting a fee on being late to pick up kids. It turned out by adding the fee they took away the shame and embarrassment that parents felt for arriving late. The number of parents turning up late increased because people would rather pay a few dollars than feel shame.

Re:This could have opposite of intended effect

[SuiteSisterMary]

Change that to 'that tried putting an insufficient fee on being late.' If they'd set the fee correctly (high enough that it was a problem, not so high that it seemed insulting) it would have worked more as expected.

Good for Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

They've suckered people into using proprietary charge points and now those people are stuck. Time to nickel and dime them for every penny. Start slow by pretending to "punish" people who're charging for too long and then turn up the temperature as high as it will go.

The car should move itself

[Anonymous Coward]

Self-driving car - right? - right.
Designate special areas for cars to move to when charging is done.
This is such a simple problem to solve nowadays... :)

Re:One would never leave a car parked at a gas sta

[Anonymous Coward]

Why yes they do! The gas stations here pretty much force you to by making the pumps take 10+ minutes to fill your 15 gallon gas tank.

They do this to force people to go inside out of the heat or cold so they might buy something other than gas since it's not legal to leave your car running while filling (the backpressure on most newer vehicles will cause problems if you try anyway)

Never had it take 10 minutes to fill up a 15 gallon tank. People who do leave the car there are either paying cash (which is increasingly rare) or just jerks who can't be bothered to move the car after having paid at the pump when they decide to go use the restroom or by snacks.

Electricity isn't gas

[thewolfkin]

One would never leave a car parked at a gas station right at the pump and the same rule applies with Superchargers

No this doesn't work BECAUSE it's not like filling up in a gas station. You don't hold the pump and fill up in under 3 minutes with a Tesla. You park the car and fill up while you're gone because it can take over 10 minutes to top up your electrical charge. What happens if you Christmas shop (or any other big shopping event or heck ANY event where you expect to be away from your car for hours) and you're at 80% do you risk topping up and over charging or do you just go without. What happens if you're at 60% or 50%. You're incentiveizing people to not bother to top up if they're going to get charged by the minute and they might be hours past due. When people start getting battery stranded what'll that do to the perception of electric cars then.

Re:Electricity isn't gas

[BostonPilot]

You're incentiveizing people to not bother to top up if they're going to get charged by the minute and they might be hours past due.

Yes, this is exactly the sort of behavior that this policy is trying to prevent.

When people start getting battery stranded what'll that do to the perception of electric cars then

Exactly why this policy is being put into effect. So that asshats won't tie up a charging spot that someone else might need in order to reach home.

I actually agree with the people who are posting that a discharge should start after a certain amount of time goes by. People who can afford a Tesla will be happy to spend $4/hr to get a parking spot right next to the store. But if they think the car will start discharging to the point that they can't make it home... well... that's a pretty good incentive to return to your car in a reasonable amount of time.

Long term, we can solve this with technology. Short term, it's an interesting problem in how to get selfish, privileged, wealthy people to act responsibly in sharing infrastructure with others (while not alienating exactly the sort of people who can afford to buy your cars).

"One would never leave a car parked at a pump"

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes we would, and do regularly when paying for the gas with cash, getting a receipt when the card-at-the-pump's receipt paper is out, etc.

Cue

[hattable]

Cue a mod that reads 99% forever.

Two cables per charger?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know virtually nothing about Teslas or their charging stations so maybe this is stupid, but just a thought...if you had two (or more) cables on the charger and enough parking space, couldn't the one that is done charging just shut off power to the cable and allow another to begin charging?

Good

[ebvwfbw]

They should also tow if you're more than say 10 minutes late.
Reminds me of a jackass I saw that pulled into a filling station, fuel spot when there were spaces by the door. He went in, purchased a pack of cigs and departed. Why take up a filling bay? Well he smokes so... of course he's a fool.

Oh really?

[Anonymous Coward]

"One would never leave a car parked at a gas station right at the pump and the same rule applies with Superchargers,"

^

Bahahahahah right. And I'm selling a small moon. Any takers?