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A Ham Radio Software Company Has Been Blacklisting Users For Leaving Negative Reviews (theregister.co.uk)
Gandalf_the_Beardy quotes a report from The Register: The Register reports on the story of Jim Giercyk, an amateur radio enthusiast who had his copy of the popular Ham Radio Deluxe (HRD) software revoked after posting a negative review. Other radio hams have followed up with us regarding claims that this was not an isolated incident and others may have had their license keys blacklisted for being publicly critical of the company. And just to be clear: by blackballing keys, installed copies of the software stop working. Giercyk, a professional musician in South Carolina, U.S., says that after his dealings with HRD Software (which has since reinstated his software key) and the statement made by the developer's co-owner Dr Michael Carper, he takes issue with claims made by the company. Giercyk, aka N2SUB, told us on Tuesday: "The issue is not the refusal of service, the issue is that HRD disabled my software, and then offered to enable it in exchange for the removal of an online review of their product. It's extortion, not refusal of service." Giercyk also said that since he went public about his blacklisting last week, he has received messages from other users who have stories of their software keys being revoked by HRD without their knowledge for speaking up about having a bad support experience. A number of other readers pointed out a collection of bad reviews posted on hobbyist site eHam by customers who had their license keys blacklisted. HRD told us some of those users could have written their assessments after requesting a refund and deactivating their software, thus their licenses will appear revoked. Meanwhile, Reddit threads and follow-up discussions to Giercyk's catalyst forum post reveal similar stories of keys being revoked after critical comments about Ham Radio Deluxe have appeared online. Other sources allege some amateur radio forums have in the past deleted posts critical of HRD.
I had not heard this story, but that might be because I don't personally use Ham Radio Deluxe or any other proprietary ham software, certainly nothing that can be controlled in this way. Other hams are free to use whatever they want, but I personally consider proprietary software to be fundamentally incompatible with the nature and purpose of ham radio.
The concept of ownership continues to slip through our fingers. And this isn't cheap software! We always say "if you can't open it you don't own it." Perhaps it's time for "if you can't compile it, it's not really installed."
Yes, ham radio is still very much a "thing". But to me, the one "thing" it never has been is the purchasing of closed, proprietary software that can be turned off at whim by the developer. To me, ham radio has always been a unique hands-on opportunity to learn what's "behind the knobs" of a piece of communications hardware (or now, software). Even if you don't build (or write) your own stuff, even if you're primarily interested in using it to talk to others, it still gives you (or should give you) the opportunity to learn how it all works, to make technology just a little less mysterious and intimidating. Ham radio still provides a creative outlet for hundreds of thousands of people. It helps STEM students learn about electronics, math, physics, or just about any other field of science and engineering even remotely associated with radio communications, such as computers and networking, satellites and remote sensing. When I got into it in high school nearly 50 years ago, it confirmed for me that I wanted to become an electrical engineer, a decision I have never regretted. Even many who decide that a STEM career isn't for them are hams simply because it's an enjoyable hobby.
Some weasel clause in there license probably has
We reserve the right to modify this agreement at any time, including revoking your right to use the software.
That fine print will get you every time.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
HRD is widely used among Hams. One of its claims to fame is integration with amateur transceivers and other equipment; it can control and monitor a wide variety of complex modern rigs, amps, tuners, etc. through serial ports, USB, Ethernet, etc.
Honestly I'm disappointed with amateur radio in this regard; reliance on proprietary IP for too many things; proprietary stuff like HRD (there are open logging alternatives, but HRD dominates), closed source firmware from all the major manufacturers, IP protected digital audio protocols... seems like not enough hams value open platforms; they pay through the nose for proprietary stuff without a second thought.
There are brilliant exceptions, but they aren't getting the attention they deserve. You'd think there would be a dozen kickstarter projects for open HT/mobile/base hardware with firmware published on GitHub, displacing the traditional proprietary manufacturers.... the hardware engineering is trivial given the levels of expertise found among these people.
There are alternatives to HamRadioDeluxe, free and Open Source solutions too, Skywave Linux seems to be fairly good built on Ubuntu with all the Ham Radio Software already included, it is a live CD or you can run it from a USB memory stick (thumbdrive) or you can install it on a PC, http://skywavelinux.com/
also most other major distros will include most of this software in their repositories so installing them in a new linux install is as simple as launching synaptic or using apt-get from the commandline if you already know the names of the app you want, synaptic has a good search feature by keywords so it makes looking for apps easier
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
There; now they will never let me buy it. Why use crapware such as HRD when you can use FLDigi? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...
I second this so strongly that most probably won't understand how visceral this is.
Phil wrote some software used to enable UUCP over packet, way way back when. My roommate and I cobbled together a UUCP feed for a couple of BBSes in rural Idaho. While we were still figuring out the mysteries of Minix and this newfangled Linux thing, we had email before it was cool. It was made possible by software with that callsign in his email address emblazoned on the banners and docs.
I didn't understand what amateur radio was, but I'd run across the hacker/tinkerer culture in radio that eventually (only a few years ago!) brought me into the hobby. Thanks for the early introduction, Phil!
Fast forward to today and I'm packing radio gear for six weeks on a remote South Pacific island, because it's a desirable place to talk to (E51AMF, for the curious). I've met countless incredible people all over the world. Many on the radio and many of them in person. I've made lifelong friends because of a shared interest in "seeing what's possible." My only regret is that I saw it was a weird quirky hobby that "probably isn't still a thing."
Yes, it's still a thing. If you haven't explored the hobby at all, you really should, especially now. So much interesting stuff to explore and try and so many people who want to push the boundaries.
73, K7ADD
Okay, I'll say it so your neighbor won't have to...
"You go all that way just to talk on the radio? Why don't you get a radio that will work in your house?"
I used to have a HAM license when I was a kid, late 60's/early 70's. I quickly learned I enjoyed building the electronics, but talking to random joes did nothing for me. Got a couple QSL cards, sent a few out, but I did it for maybe 3 months tops.
Got a job later on as an electronics tech, then turned into an embedded software engineer. Getting the HAM license was a good thing for me to do, even though it turned out I hated being a HAM.
I had more fun listening to radio stations in the midwest, or in Europe, far more interesting than talking to some random dude (I was in San Diego).
A bunch of the software in the world of ham radio is pretty bad--for whatever reason it seems like everybody is stuck on developing software for Windows 95/98 with Visual Basic or FoxPro, and they typically shoot for "it gets the job done" and not much else. There is some great (and free) software out there, but HRD isn't one of them. The real advances in amateur radio software are coming from the devs and hams who embrace open source, or at least believe in sharing the knowledge.
I was looking into HRD but now that I know this is how they operate as a business I'll take a look at other options.
If I had modpoints today....
HAM radio is one of only a hand full of (organized, if you want to) hobbies that encourage you to explore almost all facets of the modern technological equipment we nowadays surround ourselves with. Analog and digital electronics (radios, computer interfaces, micro-controllers and programmable logic, power supply and storage), software (embedded, drivers, applications, communications protocols), metal working (antennas and masts, wave pipes, but also building your own cases)...
And then of course all the science and mathematics behind it. Electrostatics and electrodynamics, meteorology (propagation), some thermodynamics (noise), some solid-state physics (semiconductors)...
Also it can be a very social hobby, because if you want to, you can interact with people in any country in the world with a few hundred dollars worth (either store-bought or paid for in time to build from parts) of equipment. Although, I do confess, chances to interact with a North Korean are very slim indeed.
If you choose to become a member of a HAM radio group, there are also local gatherings of HAMs you can visit, ask for advice and maybe learn a thing or two from. I'm myself a member of VERON (Association of experimental radio research, Netherlands), a Dutch radio amateur club. In the U.S. you have the ARRL.
If you're interested in volunteering during emergencies, HAM can be a good way in or addition to other 'hobbies' in that direction. In the Netherlands there is DARES (Dutch Amateur Radio Emergency Service). The U.S. equivalent is simply called ARES.
Don't be discouraged about the science and math. You don't need degrees in them. You can choose to calculate and design of course, but also to 'just' experiment, and see where it goes. As long as you use your common sense and observe a hand full of regulations that keep you from some major stupid actions (like ruining cell tower coverage in your block, hampering other commercial and emergency radio services or do bodily harm due to bundled/high power radiation). ;) .
Without a license you're limited to listening and a few 'free' bands for low power equipment but getting your license isn't that hard. A novice license exam should be doable for anyone willing to spend a few hours every week, for a year in learning the basic science behind the hobby and for reviewing the proper regulations. But your high-school physics and math probably covers most of it, if you paid attention in class. If you want to pass the exam for a full license, you need to dig a little deeper. Most people with college degrees including physics and math find it easy enough and anyone with or close to a bachelor in any remotely related field (in my case: CS - half way at the time, and a precursor hobby experience of (non-radio) electronics and computer hardware) may not even need to study, maybe only 'leaf through' the exam material to pass for the technical exam. Don't forget to review the regulations 'though. I forgot, and still passed by answering that part of the exam on common sense, but you save yourself a lot of stress not following my example
73, PG8W.
Icom's IC-7300 brings you a lot of actual SDR goodness, without the umbilical cord to the computer. I own this radio; it's pretty nice, though certainly not flawless.
Looks like they're going to release a higher-end radio next.
Analog radios... no more for me. They just can't reach the levels of performance an SDR can.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Without getting into the behavior of the people who sell HRD, which is reprehensible, the software does a whole lot more than digital modes. You can use it control most radios built in the 21st century, track satellites, operate an antenna rotator and a shit-ton of other stuff. It doesn't always work without some coaxing on the part of the user, but it's there. I used the free version (pre-6.x) of HRD for years until the crappy Windows XP box I cobbled together specifically to run it died and I switched my shack computer to a Linux box.
This ain't rocket surgery.
Ham Radio Deluxe is proprietary software but was originally free to use. That changed after a change of ownership. The free versions had no restrictions and worked exceptionally well with my radio gear. I have not used the new paid version of HRD because I don't like how this played out or the tactics of the new owner. I got my ham license 25 years ago and still have radios that require a license, although I don't really use them very much. Ham radio is not dead but there are many convenient methods of communication today that it is just one option of many.
Since Linux is my main OS now, I've use a some Linux based software with my radios but nothing as user friendly as the original HRD. That does not mean that there isn't good ham radio software available for Linux, just that it can take a bit more effort to get working and to use. One day I'll get my radio gear out again and take the time to get Linux setup with some of the good software available.
if Cops stated their needs in a bike to Harley-Davidson then a bike would be made to order for a price
If cops wanted fucking puddles of oil under their bikes, I'm sure they would have mentioned it.
yup, thats what i do, i enjoy listening, and i am not much of a talker, but i do love the technology and have a couple of HF rigs and an SDR for listening purposes, i could talk if i wanted to but i dont, it is just knowing i can in case of emergency is good enough for me,
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
I've used HRD for about a year and won't be renewing my license for it. I'm looking at FLDigi & Log4om to replace it. I mostly contest and use N1MM+
Here is the entire support ticket the guy opened: http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?attachments/hrd-software-inc-pdf.336462/.
It seems that they have in their TOS a line that says:
8. We reserve the right to refuse service and disable a customer’s key at any time for any reason
Also, they are lying in that it was just one employee that did this. From the ticket you can see an employee was answering the ticket at first, but then "Rick" took over, who appears to be "Rick Ruhl", a co-owner of HRD software, and throws gems like this to the stunned customer:
You are not buying software, you are buying your callsign's access to the software. ... ...
Again refer to section 8 of the TOS, which was written by our Attorney.
See you in court.
Unbelievable!
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
Note that if you want to legally build RF electronics for experimentation that's a very good reason to have a ham license even if talking to people isn't your thing. For example if you want to experiment with 2.4GHz WiFi at power levels much higher than what's allowed for general public use...
Unfortunately this aggressive behaviour is typical among companies selling ham-radio related hardware or software. I got into ham radio in 1980, and after a few years the so called "ham-spirit" evaporated and was replaced by money greedines. I am no more into this, and I do not regret the decision I took. Communities that grew around projects like Arduino or Raspberry PI are more open and technologically-challenging than ham radio today. I wonder why a young student should take his ham radio ticket, and get involved with this stuff, when there are so much interesting things in the SBC wolrd, that furthermore require no license at all!
So much interesting stuff to explore and try and so many people who want to push the boundaries.
With all due respect, boundaries of what? Talking on the radio?
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Only if you get a refund from that 1 star review. I've had to use software that really deserved a 1 star review, but there was no other options in my price range.
- Raynet --> .
It is somewhat more difficult to blacklist users of opensource programs.
- Raynet --> .
Never had a credit card in my life and am fairly proud of that fact. I bank with a credit union and am occasionally active in the shareholder meetings. If more people did this, banks would have no political power. Be the change you want to see in the world. (It does mean that I only have owned a bed since about 2 months ago, slept on an air mattress until I had saved enough that buying a bed and frame wasn't a big deal, but like I said, live below your means and none will own you).
Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
"by blackballing keys, installed copies of the software stop working."
Simple solution to the problem, don't pay them to begin with then you can give a review and delete it. Most of the time when I test software, if it fails my "useability" test, it is off my system long before the review is completed. I have too many things to do than to deal with useless software that doesn't meet my needs.
What a pile of gibberish. Can't even work out whose fucking side you're on. Well done mate.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
You're the same guy who posted above about the Harley Davidson bikes aren't you. Your world salad is semi-distinctive, if completely unintelligible.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Yep, some "talking on the radio." Lots of examples of that:
- Maximum average number of contacts per minute for an hour (this is a "contesting" rate)
- Number of countries you can reach with a given setup (this is usually referred to as a DXCC)
- I'm working on a variant of this where I intend to continue confirming contacts with 100 unique countries or territories every year. (3 years, so far)
- Distance per Watt (SSB to Hawaii on 10mW in my case)
- How many contacts you can make with a setup you carry to the top of a mountain, yourself (look up "SOTA" or Summits on the Air)
- How fast can you decode Morse code, by ear?
It's also some of the stuff that KA9Q (Phil) was talking about. RF is incredibly fascinating and amateur radio is a great way to have an output for what you learn, in practice.
- Most effective antenna you can design and construct, with some constraints (or not!)
- Maximum possible gain at a given frequency (look up the OH8X 160m beam or ES5TV's 15m stack)
- How far _below_ the noise floor a given modulation scheme can be decoded (-32dB in my case, usually a combination of hacking on software and searching for the right solar conditions)
- How good an inexpensive homebrew rig can be (look up Ashar Farhan VU2ICQ)
- How good can a computer get at decoding Morse code (CW)? (Look up AG1LE and a few others who are using Machine Learning and other techniques for this)
And yes, it can also be a social hobby. Some people like meeting others from around the world and just talking.
Yes, some of ham radio is old guys talking for hours on end about their prostate problems or the most amazing grilled cheese sandwich for hours on end. But it's also amazing people doing amazing things. Listen to 144MHz (2m) locals or even the typical 3.8MHz (75m) conversation and you'll instantly get turned off. Dig a little deeper and there's some really cool stuff happening.
- K7ADD
Fair enough.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Well, you just hop to it, then, and cure cancer this weekend. Anything less than that, and you're just a midget dung beetle rolling round your little ball of dung.
Or, you're just a troll belittling others on an open blog forum.
There's always someone in the crowd who thinks their use case, should be everyone' s use case. The first fact on the table is that the IC-7300 has been a huge success. So all those people, according to you, are "drooling idiots." That's absurd.
You seem to think that "SDR" means "external computer required." It doesn't. It means software defines the radio's characteristics. Which is exactly what the IC-7300 does. The entire point of the 7300 is you get the razor-edged demodulators, the (first) decent spectrum and waterfall in a transceiver from "the big three", in a high-performance radio at a price that puts most of the higher-end analog transceivers to shame, without requiring a computer.
If you want a radio with an IQ output, there are available choices; for transceivers there are several, and for receivers, there are many. I write SDR software myself, and enjoy some of the more rarified aspects of SDR a great deal. I know SDR inside and out, and am personally pretty content to have a computer nearby. But there's no question that there is a perfectly reasonable market for a stand-alone radio that isn't just another old-tech analog rework. As a 12vdc radio, it's also extremely well designed for field and other power-sipping ops.
There are a lot of people who just want to turn the radio on and take off running. Not everyone wants to use a computer when they want to use a radio. The IC-7300 was aimed squarely at that demographic -- which is not a synonym for "drooling idiots."
Despite any impression you may have gotten to the contrary, you are not the arbiter of all that is good for everyone else. It's perfectly reasonable to say "I want a radio with an IQ output." It's the exact opposite of reasonable to say "everyone who doesn't want a radio with an IQ output is a drooling idiot."
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I was referring to the boundaries of the hobby, not the boundaries of human existence. But I appreciate the big thinking.
Yeah, you get back to us when measured performance of those products is even close. Don't hold your breath; you wouldn't look good colored like a smurf.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Because it's a spout on the planet that has very few or no Ham radio operators. It's called a DXpedition.
ARRL.org
I'm in the process of packing up my house, preparing to move, and I found a 5-1/4" disk in a box. The label says it's Phil Karn's KA9Q TCP/IP stack, copyright 1987. A friend of mine and I used it to learn TCP/IP networking by squirting modem tones thru radios back in 1988. It was kind of a weird time in my life. I wasn't really college ready, so I had a bunch of work to do in a junior college just to get in to a University. I could have very easily given up and wandered away and become an electrician. Ham radio kept my attention. I graduated with a STEM degree, perhaps the wrong STEM degree, but that hardly mattered. Just as I graduated Mosaic appeared, I could code C on SunOS & Linux, I knew TCP/IP networking and the core Internet protocols, and how to troubleshoot all the way down to the physical layer. My career took off like I'd been shot out of a cannon. My friend retired from Apple at age 35.
Tinkering teaches. Ham radio is very much still a thing.
And let me just take a moment to say thank you to Phil!
I've always been interested in electronics but never learned much beyond simple DC circuits until I studied for the General exam. If you're interested in electronics or how WiFi works, ham radio is a goo d way to get started.
Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
Thanks. It was actually TCP/IP (the Internet protocols) over packet radio.
Well, not to toot my own horn too loudly, but in the mid 1980s I wrote a TCP/IP implementation. I intended it for ham radio use on low end PCs, as the only existing general purpose implementations were on commercial minicomputers far beyond a ham budget. (I actually began it on a dare by Terry Fox, WB4JFI, who insisted it was too complex to implement on anything a ham could afford.)
Before I knew it, my software was being widely used outside ham radio for dialup access to the Internet. Universities and companies set up banks of modems and PCs to give their students and employees access to their existing connections. Pretty soon commercial companies sprang up to do the same for the public, again using my software; I think we now call them "Internet Service Providers".
Meanwhile, the OSI world was continuing to produce large piles of paper, but no inexpensive (or free), usable software.
In the early 1990s, I went to Qualcomm where I ported my code onto their phones so it could be used to provide wireless Internet services.
Sure, my software is long obsolete now. When people still ask about it, I tell them to go look at Linux. But it once played a role that went well beyond ham radio, even though that's all I had originally meant it for. Perhaps this was an example of a butterfly flapping its wings; I don't know.
Yeah, after a little more sleep, I recalled how this was cobbled together. It was Waffle BBS for DOS that did the UUCP bits. Thanks again!
Ethics. Gaming journalism.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
FINALLY a topic on Slashdot that's not political, and actually interesting to me. HRD was the only program I could find that: Made it easy to use LOTW Tracked awards in a simple, easy way Imported all my old logs from different programs Controlled my aging FT-990 via CAT That being said I find the interface a bit clunky and dated, especially the window management which is basically non existent. What else out there does these things?
Murphy was an optimist
Looks like someone set up a nice little trap and caught them deleting posts mentioning this.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
What beginning equipment would you recommend for a person who would like test this hobby? Nothing expensive.
What beginning equipment would you recommend for a person who would like test this hobby? No expensive equipment.
Posted (by an anonymous coward) somewhere else:
Interesting.....
I downloaded the latest version of Ham Radio Deluxe just now and installed it.
There is a "Source" folder contained in the subdirectory of HAM RADIO DELUXE, 6.3.0.613 that contains a file DM780SourceCode.zip
The date on this file is as follows: 25/09/11 09:49
Inside this zip file is a readme file that says:
QUOTE
HRDMultiMode001
---------------
The main encoder / decoder DLL is HRDMultiMode001, compiled with Visual Studio 6.0 C++.
HRDOlivia001
------------
The Olivia encoder / decoder DLL HRDOlivia001 is compiled with Visual Studio 2008 beta C++,
this code cannot be compiled with Visual Studio 6.0 C++.
HRDInterface001
---------------
The interface to HRD is HRDInterface001, compiled with Visual Studio 6.0 C++.
HRDLog001
---------
The interface to HRD's logbook is HRDLog001, compiled with Visual Studio 6.0 C++.
HRDID001
--------
The VideoID code taken from fldigi, compiled with Visual Studio 6.0 C++.
Copyright
---------
The encoder / decoder source is taken from fldigi written by Dave, W1HKJ. It is not
copyright HB9DRV. The interface code is copyright HB9DRV.
[This is a work in progress]
Any questions - simon@hb9drv.ch
END QUOTE
Now surely if the date and readme are to be believed, that would be an unattributed use of GNU Licenced software from the FLDIGI codebase, and it may explain why adding new encoders/decoders seems to be such an issue.
Interestingly, on the old licence agreement (Simon's) when you install it says:
"Other Programs (PSK31 Deluxe, Digital Master 780, Mapper) - You may use this Program at no cost without restriction."
On the latest HAM RADIO DELUXE, 6.3.0.613 it says:
"Other Programs (PSK31 Deluxe, Digital Master 780, Mapper)"
So what's the story?
https://regmedia.co.uk/2016/12...
That's not what I meant.
Probably the ultimate in QRP right now is WSPR (Weak Signal Propagation Reporter). This is a specially-designed very low speed (~1 bps) digital modulation and coding format designed for use as a propagation beacon, especially on the HF ("shortwave") bands. But it has recently been adapted for tracking ultra light weight (12.5 gram!) high altitude balloon payloads. One such payload, WB8ELK-2, has completed three complete trips around the world in the past month and is now on its fourth:
https://tracker.habhub.org/#!m...
The tracker payload is powered directly by a pair of small thin-film solar panels. The weight budget is so extremely tight that there is no battery, so it transmits only during the day.
You're welcome!
Hey, if you can read that disk, could you put it on the net somewhere? I didn't keep copies of all the earlier versions of my software. It'd be neat to see which one you got.
It's hard to make a single recommendation, because different people are called by different parts of the hobby.
Does working DX (making contacts with distant stations) call to you? Any number of commercial HF transceivers will fill the bill. Buying one brand new starts at $600 or so and goes up (WAY up) from there. But used radios can be good values, and you can get back most of what you spend by reselling the radio if you decide it's not for you. Get advice from an active ham about what to buy and what to avoid.
Want to participate in public service events (helping out at road races, charity walks, and the like)? A handheld VHF and UHF transceiver is usually what you need. (Some events call for higher power radios that are used in cars.) You can go really cheap and buy a Baofeng for under $50, or spend a bit more on a radio from one of the big ham radio companies to get something that is easier to use. The up and coming thing are digital handhelds, but those mostly aren't yet being used for public service events.
Itching to get out the soldering iron and build your own radio? Plenty of choices there too, from very minimal designs to ones that match the capabilities of the commercial rigs.
Are neighborhood data networks your thing? Most of that work is done with repurposed WiFi gear. Suitable used routers can be very inexpensive, and people often build their own directional antennas. One popular design uses a Pringles can.
I have only scratched the surface. There are many other possibilities.
Maybe we need GNU option.
Thanks for the input!
Hey, if you can read that disk, could you put it on the net somewhere?
I'm afraid I'd be hard pressed to come up with even a 3-1/2 inch floppy drive at this point, even if I wasn't packing up my house. I'm not sure it will be readable. It was stored in a 5-land garage for 10+ years, and an inland 6-land garage for the 10 years prior to that. If I can't find a way to read it, I'll toss it in the mail to your station address.