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Police Request Amazon Echo Recordings For Homicide Investigation (cnet.com)

Tulsa_Time quotes a report from CNET: Amazon's Echo and Echo Dot are in millions of homes now, with holiday sales more than quadrupling from 2015. Always listening for its wake word, the breakthrough smart speakers boast seven microphones waiting to take and record your commands. Now, Arkansas police are hoping an Echo found at a murder scene in Bentonville can aid their investigation. [First reported by The Information, investigators filed search warrants to Amazon, requesting any recordings between November 21 and November 22, 2015, from James A. Bates, who was charged with murder after a man was strangled in a hot tub. While investigating, police noticed the Echo in the kitchen and pointed out that the music playing in the home could have been voice activated through the device. While the Echo records only after hearing the wake word, police are hoping that ambient noise or background chatter could have accidentally triggered the device, leading to some more clues. Amazon has not sent any recordings to the officers but did provide Bates' account information to authorities, according to court documents. The retailer giant said it doesn't release customer information without a "valid and binding legal demand." "Amazon objects to over-broad or otherwise inappropriate demands as a matter of course," the company said in a statement. Even without Amazon's help, police may be able to crack into the Echo, according to the warrant. Officers believe they can tap into the hardware on the smart speakers, which could "potentially include time stamps, audio files or other data."] Police also found a Nest thermostat, a Honeywell alarm system, wireless weather monitoring in the backyard and WeMo devices for lighting at the smart home crime scene. Officers have also seized an iPhone 6S, a Macbook Pro, a PlayStation 4 and three tablets in the investigation.

32 of 168 comments (clear)

  1. Bugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People intentionally bugging their own homes and paying a corporation for the privilege to do so.

    1. Re:Bugs by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are multiple self hosted solutions. Any old Mac has this for at least a decade. (Our old Snow Leopard Mini has it).

      Jasper and Lucida.

    2. Re:Bugs by chispito · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Audio is only uploaded once the wake word is used. As it exclusively uses your home wifi, it is easy to test for and monitor this, unlike the phone you likely carry in your pocket.

      Because when you say this

      People intentionally bugging their own homes and paying a corporation for the privilege to do so.

      I read this

      I am irrationally scared of an Echo but not by the phone in my pocket.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    3. Re:Bugs by PraiseBob · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do police regularly request cellular phone companies to provide recordings of ambient audio recorded by cellphones? In this example, the police DO treat an Echo differently from a cell phone, and the DO expect it to have stored audio that might aid their investigation, because unlike a cell phone, the echo records everything when active.

      Law enforcement treats the objects differently, so seems perfectly rational for consumers to notice the difference.

    4. Re:Bugs by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Do police regularly request cellular phone companies to provide recordings of ambient audio recorded by cellphones?

      Irrelevant. This is not about how stupid the police are, but about what Amazon records. They do not record "ambient audio". The device itself only listens for the "wake word", which is "Alexa" by default. Only the sentence directly after that wake word is recorded and transmitted, and this is relatively easy to verify.

      Being paranoid about Echo and not your cellphone is irrational.

    5. Re:Bugs by hawguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do police regularly request cellular phone companies to provide recordings of ambient audio recorded by cellphones? In this example, the police DO treat an Echo differently from a cell phone, and the DO expect it to have stored audio that might aid their investigation, because unlike a cell phone, the echo records everything when active.

      Law enforcement treats the objects differently, so seems perfectly rational for consumers to notice the difference.

      How would you know what the police do with cell phones? Law enforcement even hides whether or not they use a stingray at all, and there is very little information about what the devices are and what they are capable of - maybe they really can remotely turn on your phone's microphone and record what you're saying? And all of these secrecy comes not just with the Justice Department's blessing, but at the outright request of the Justice department.

      ...The documents also discuss the possibility of flashing a phone’s firmware “so that you can intercept conversations using a suspect’s cell phone as a bug...

      https://www.wired.com/2015/10/...

    6. Re:Bugs by hawguy · · Score: 2

      Audio is only uploaded once the wake word is used. As it exclusively uses your home wifi, it is easy to test for and monitor this, unlike the phone you likely carry in your pocket.

      That isn't much comfort to me because I don't know what it's uploading. Plenty of keyloggers will record all of the keystrokes you type offline, then upload them in bursts when an internet connection is detected. How do I know Alexa isn't recording every time it hears the word "kill" or "heroin" and then uploading those clips in bursts the next time I ask Alexa to re-order toilet paper? If I'm sniffing the network, I won't see it uploading anything at the wrong time, but I don't know what it's uploading when it hears the wake word.

      If you're worried about it, capture packets 24/7 from the device, compare traffic on days when you use it to days when you don't and you'll see that it's not sending enough data to be actively monitoring your conversations.

    7. Re:Bugs by p0p0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Why do you assume that because they are requesting the info means that Amazon has it? The police can subpoena me for the identity of JFK's real killer and I won't be able to tell them no matter how firmly they ask.

      The Association wouldn't allow me to say anyway. That's what the brain-chip was for.

    8. Re: Bugs by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And after the neural network has analysed it and extracted the command, the raw audio data may well be ditched other than the command it recognised with a success/error response code.

      I don't think anything is kept locally, but I don't think all the data is ditched on the server. If I say "Alexa, play some music" it will play something I like, such as Willie Nelson or Waylon Jennings. But if my daughter says the same thing, it will play something she likes, such as Bruno Mars. So it is obviously saving enough info to recognize the voice and preferences of individual family members.

    9. Re: Bugs by MrPeach · · Score: 3, Informative

      I worked for Nuance, and they kept *all* post keyword phrases on their server. At least on the project I was working on. Whether they do this with their smart phone apps I really don't know. And whether Amazon does the same I really can't say, unless Amazon it's actually using Nuance...

    10. Re:Bugs by ckatko · · Score: 2

      While you can't easily prove your phone ISN'T sending data, you can certainly prove when it IS sending data.

      Simply take out the SIM card, turn on WiFi, and monitor the connections. I'd imagine many apps/hacks/vulnerabilities aren't designed to automatically disable if the cellular radio is off. So that'd logically leave you with ones that are, and ones that depend specifically on a cellular modem. (Fun fact: Cellular modems can actually have root file access to your phone, an "Red Flag!"-level vulnerability.)

      --- Citation for last point:

      http://www.darkreading.com/mob...

      ----------------- Secondary post:

      Lastly, come to think of it. I wonder if you could design a "Communication LED" like modems and ethernet hubs/cards have. A blinking LED any time the PHY layer is sending data. However, I don't know enough about the GSM/CDMA protocol to know how often a cellphone "actively" sends data (announcement to look for potential cell towers), or if it's passive in nature.

      A quick Google seems to favor the passive route (and battery conservation sure sounds like the right idea for a protocol.)

      https://www.quora.com/How-ofte...

      This would certainly be outside of "most" people's abilities. Cellphones are a pain-in-the-ass to open without damaging, and you'd have to identify the PHY layer and I would imagine you can't simply attach an LED to a GSM antenna. But the point remains. For a donor phone and a (hardware) hacker with a free weekend, one could likely build a phone that lights up an LED whenever it sends data. And logically, you've then made a phone that will tell you if entire ranges of apps and Android features "call home."

      Perhaps I'm overthinking it. An even better method (if you had the cash) would be to create a fake cellphone tower ("base station") that forwards back to the internet and gives you a packet log. OpenBTS (open base station) exists already. Then you'd be able to see many layers of the stack and not just a transmit LED, to help identify what is talking and where it's going.

    11. Re: Bugs by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1. They have sold millions, so I figure somebody has checked.
      2. If they were actually recording everything, a lot of people would have to be in on the secret.
      3. I assume that Amazon is run by greedy bastards, and they wouldn't build a lot of expensive extra capacity into a device if there was no profit in it for them.
      4. If they were spying, and got caught, it would have terrible effects on their reputation, and cost them a lot of customers.

    12. Re: Bugs by trevc · · Score: 2

      So are you saying that after somebody purchases and installs an Echo, from the first time they utter the word Alexa it records everything until you unplug it? What did you do at Nuance, clean the toilets?

    13. Re:Bugs by networkBoy · · Score: 2

      dunno, but it is why my house has one room with no cell signal.
      It was by happy accident, but one I don't care to correct.

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  2. Never saw this coming by IMightB · · Score: 2

    Color me right, I never would've though that this would happen. this is why I won't have this sort of device in my home. Soon, they'll asking for all sorts of info...

    1. Re:Never saw this coming by Crashmarik · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh just don't indulge in thoughtcrime and everything will be doubleplusgood.

    2. Re:Never saw this coming by Elfich47 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I expect there to be a follow up story in the next couple of weeks: Cops vexxed by fact that amazon isn't recording everything and try to force amazon to release "secret recordings" they feel that amazon should have.

      --
      Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
    3. Re:Never saw this coming by zlives · · Score: 4, Insightful

      did i miss the amazon denial of recordings?

    4. Re:Never saw this coming by Nonesuch · · Score: 2

      You got an android phone? It has the ability to listen when the phone is off to hear you say "OK Google".

      When the phone is off? Either you are confusing "locked" or "asleep" with "Off", or intentionally spreading FUD.

      Most newer Android phones implement "OK Google" hotword detection using hardware, meaning that a dedicated low-power chip listens for the hotword to wake up the audio processor, but is not constantly recording audio to storage in order to analyze it for the hotword.

      Amazon Echo and Apple products have their own mechanism for hotword detection. Some of these do record a continuous multi-second rolling buffer, others do it in a dedicated chip. It's not just a Google thing. In any case, the always-on listening buffer isn't stored, but some devices will upload what it thinks is a query or command, an audio stream containing all the audio after it detects the hotword.

      So I guess the moral of the story is that if you are being strangled in a hot tub, you could do worse than yelling "Hey Siri! Call the police!" with your final breath.

    5. Re:Never saw this coming by E-Lad · · Score: 2

      No idea why the cops would even need to ask Amazon. All they need to do to find them is look in the dungeons below a particular pizza joint in Washington DC.

    6. Re:Never saw this coming by Will_Malverson · · Score: 3, Funny

      LPT: If you're being murdered, tell Alexa.

      Alexa: My brother in law Jerry is here and has a knife and is stabbing me! Ow!

    7. Re:Never saw this coming by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Color me right, I never would've though that this would happen. this is why I won't have this sort of device in my home. Soon, they'll asking for all sorts of info...

      They ask for all sorts of info anyway, even when the device doesn't store it. Not having an Amazon Echo won't stop the police asking for very stupid things if you are a murder suspect.

    8. Re:Never saw this coming by WaffleMonster · · Score: 2

      If the echo actually recorded everything in its hearing range and sent it up to the mother ship you would see the packet traffic, there would be a significant drag on your bandwidth and if you are charged by the megabyte your billing would jump through the roof the moment it was turned on (assuming something like 1 meg/minute of audio would give 1440 megs per day in usage).

      Voice codec traditionally used by cell phones and VoIP average on the order of 1k/sec. This is 60k/minute, 3.6 mb/hr, 86 mb/day or 2.5 gb/month. It wouldn't be noticed by most broadband subscribers. This not counting deployment of silence detection or significantly more complex codecs enabling you to do many times better than 86mb/day. Combined with batch operation that sent a week or more at a time users could be left completely clueless without reverse engineering/persistent packet capture.

      This isn't to say it is actually being done only the premise it couldn't be done without tipping off the average user who would "notice" is sadly not true.

      Today murder investigation, tomorrow evidence of banging "Alexa" uncovered during divorce investigation and day after that determination of "no expectation of privacy" within your own home because "technology".

  3. Notable missing gadget by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From the summary:

    Police also found a Nest thermostat, a Honeywell alarm system, wireless weather monitoring in the backyard and WeMo devices for lighting at the smart home crime scene. Officers have also seized an iPhone 6S, a Macbook Pro, a PlayStation 4 and three tablets in the investigation.

    All those gadgets, but this guy didn't have a security camera?

    --
    Redundancy is good And also good.
  4. Re:Grab much? by bugs2squash · · Score: 2

    my dad has a voice command TV, it listens to him yell at politicians and hippies, I don't think it actually activates anything, but he feels better about it. Improved technology would allow activation by throwing things at it.

    --
    Nullius in verba
  5. Re:I told you so by thegarbz · · Score: 2

    Told us what? The police asking for something that doesn't exist has been a given for many years. They seem to be clueless as to how the Echo works. ... kind of like you.

  6. Could be enough to prove he's lying by raymorris · · Score: 3

    The suspect said he went to bed at 1:00 AM with the4 victim alive, then woke up at 8:30 to find him dead. The water meter indicates the drowning occurred between 1:00 AM and 3:00 AM.

    ANY recording of the suspect's voice between 1:00 AM and 8:30 would probably indicate that the suspect is lying. Even if he checked the weather forecast at 4:00 that would indicate he wasn't asleep as claimed.

      On the other hand, if records or witness testimony indicates that the habitually suspect uses the Echo several times per hour and he did NOT use it between 1:00 and 8:30, that would be consistent with his claim that he was asleep, somewhat corroborating his story.

  7. Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki by CaptainDork · · Score: 2

    Privacy is out the window.

    I write about this shit a lot and it's similar to the "War on Piracy" in that when crap is digitized, it's essentially in the public domain.

    My fucking car rats me out via a service I use. My phone does. My desktop and all my tablets do, too.

    I get made when I buy shit at Walmart, via receipts and security cameras.

    There ain't a goddam thing that's going to change all that, so we have only two choices:

    A.) Get over it.

    B.) Get used to it.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  8. Echo isn't the smart device that cracked the case by Solandri · · Score: 3, Informative
    From TFAs:

    Bates told police he went to bed at 1 a.m. after he, Collins and another man drank alcohol in his hot tub. Bates said he called police at 9:30 a.m. when he found Collins' body.

    Bates' lawyer said a pair of cancelled calls around 1 a.m. and a series of short or cancelled calls around 4 a.m. on Bates' phone were mistakes.

    As for Mr. Bates, court records suggest the device prosecutors got more from wasn't the Alexa but the home's smart water meter. It showed that someone used 140 gallons of water between 1 a.m. and 3 a.m. at Mr. Bates' house, a much heavier than usual amount.

    So basically the guy's alibi might have held up if (1) he hadn't used his phone after he claimed he went to sleep, and (2) the water meter didn't show significant activity in the house after he claimed he went to sleep (police think he was busy washing away any evidence).

  9. Re:Most already pay for and carry their own tracki by spire3661 · · Score: 2

    C. Start slitting throats.

    --
    Good-bye
  10. Re:How to get away with it by vux984 · · Score: 2

    'ok google' sounds enough like the noises one makes while drowning that maybe it activated on the victims struggles. :p

  11. Software non-freedom should make you feel unsafe. by jbn-o · · Score: 2

    I refer you to my previous comment on this theme and the ridiculous posts which fail to debunk the always-listening = spying theme by claiming to know what proprietary software does. Not only are such claims ridiculous on their face, but even if the spying were handled locally, it's trivially easy to record, compress, and store data from the device either uploading it with other data when the user expects something to be uploaded or buffer the spying fruit until a later time. And there's nothing stopping interesting background information from being captured too. The purpose of the captured data is subjective—a tracker owner may have intended to use the device to do one thing, but the background audio/video reveals something of interest in another context. The solution, of course, is to grant computer owners as much control over their computers as they can have by having all computers run nothing but free software.