Ask Slashdot: What's The Best Job For This Recent CS Grad?

Security. by johnnys · 2017-01-09 00:35 · Score: 5, Insightful

Security is a growth industry.

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Sometimes the "writing on the wall" is blood spatter...

Re:Security. by geekmux · 2017-01-09 01:01 · Score: 2

Security is a growth industry.
It will be, but only as long as the cost of mitigating is worth it to organizations. Once the cost exceeds that of insurance offerings, companies will simply mitigate with the latter.
The old mantra was "it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when."
The new mantra is "it's not a matter of when, it's a matter of how often and how much."
Also, Security depends on your ability to manage frustration, since it's often a losing battle. A fruitful career due to the income potential (for now), but the shine wears off rather quickly. If you're looking for that low-stress IT career, Security isn't it.
Re:Security. by Minupla · 2017-01-09 01:03 · Score: 2

I'll second this. Weaknesses I've observed in the current crop of SEs currently in the market place are:
1) Lack of security understanding and related defensive programming skills - If I have to tell you I found a XSS vulnerability in your code, you should be embarrassed, because you should have caught it way before I found it in QA.
2) A lack of understanding of the world outside your box. I don't expect that you'll be able to configure a cisco router, but I DO expect you to be able to tell me what ports you're using, and details on your communication protocols (are you encrypting, if so what protocol?
3) A lack of understanding of BASIC security principles, e.g. Authentication, Authorization, Auditing, & Availability. You should be able to rattle off what your code is doing with respect to those core needs.
Min

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On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
Re:Security. by geekmux · 2017-01-09 01:49 · Score: 1

A lot of things that are at risk are difficult to attach a price to. Things like IP, employee data, and disruption of business. Not to mention legal liability and bad publicity.
A lot of the metrics you have listed are intangible, and therefore are often mired in FUD sales tactics, making justification rather difficult, if not impossible for a Security representative today.

That's kind of like saying if auto insurance was cheap enough, everyone would drive recklessly.
Uh, wrong. I was implying that the cost of repairing automobiles is expensive enough that carrying insurance proves to be an alternative that is cost effective. That same analogy can be carried over to Security.
When an organization spends a million dollars a year on manpower costs associated with a CISO, Security Analysts, and Operations, only to find they're still getting hacked and damages occur, they will consider a CyberSecurity insurance plan as an alternative, because it ultimately may prove to be more cost effective. Sure, you can likely reduce your premiums with such a plan by at least trying to be secure, but ultimately I fear it will be the costly human that will be replaced by insurance as the cost justification.
We've already seen products like LifeLock create an entirely new form of insurance. Watch and see how CyberSecurity insurance grows over the next few years.
Auto, medical, dental, vision, life, renters, homeowners, flood, earthquake...take a look at what you spend every month on mitigating risk, and how much of it is now optional. It's not hard to see where this is going and why.
Re:Security. by Joe_Dragon · 2017-01-09 02:23 · Score: 1

and with an income based loan repayment plan the student loans will be wiped away over time.
Re:Security. by bsDaemon · 2017-01-09 02:26 · Score: 1

Insurance (risk transference) is one method of risk mitigation. However, insurance companies are, by and large, extremely good at risk analysis (they have to be to stay in business). The likelihood of an insurer paying out on a breach where the insured party can't show that they performed any sort of other risk mitigation is going to be extremely low.
Otherwise, I agree with you and your comment fits my experience to a T.
Re:Security. by Opportunist · 2017-01-09 02:32 · Score: 1

This. Security is about the only thing that is not only growing but also one of the few things companies don't want to outsource because ... well, it's one thing if they steal the IP but another if they keep the door open so they can do it at will.
I am in IT security and we're hiring. Actually, rather, we would be hiring if we could find people. We're at the point where juniors get salaries comparable with seniors in other areas and trainees with little to no security experience get junior level salaries. We take no interns, we're hiring for permanent positions. I sure as fuck won't let anyone even think about leaving if I notice that he knows his shit.
And we're by far not the only ones. Companies have noticed that security is becoming an issue and that with more and more assholes trying to steal your data and governments starting to make execs responsible for it when they can't show that they tried their best to avoid it, there is no shortage whatsoever when it comes to work.
What is in short supply are IT security people.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Security. by CaptainDork · 2017-01-09 03:05 · Score: 1

If you're interested in security and want to do something useful, and profitable, code "preventative/predictive" software that does for the user what the IT department preaches to the users:
1.) Don't click on phishing links in emails. You and I know what that means; usually an executable (.exe, .com, .bat, .scr, .whatever) wrapped in a ,zip.
Start raising flags. Block forward progress until a systems analyst arrives.
2.) Use something like Web of Trust to provide first-flag and even then (and this is important for 1.) as well) have the computer examine the consequences of a download of an attachment or link.
It's a goddam computer. Have it read the code and determine intent.
Look: Users don't encrypt local files. Why is that even happening?
Or, the file/link is a dropper. Users don't do droppers.
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Predictive analysis and foreseeing consequences:
Work to get on the front line of security and build a better mousetrap.

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It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Re:Security. by geekmux · 2017-01-09 03:15 · Score: 1

Computer Security is the Environmental Engineering of the field. It's a lot of paperwork and written reports. The pentest and hacking part actually plays a minor role. It's also very fragmented because there's no government standard. Once there's a standard, the career will boost.
Believe me, even when there's a government standard (which exist for several sectors of business), justification to spend can still be very difficult, even in the face of mandates.
Re:Security. by geekmux · 2017-01-09 03:27 · Score: 1

Insurance (risk transference) is one method of risk mitigation. However, insurance companies are, by and large, extremely good at risk analysis (they have to be to stay in business). The likelihood of an insurer paying out on a breach where the insured party can't show that they performed any sort of other risk mitigation is going to be extremely low.
Otherwise, I agree with you and your comment fits my experience to a T.
Of course there will be ways to reduce insurance premiums, such as firewalls, IDS/IPS, etc. in order to reduce risk to qualify/justify an insurance plan and develop acceptable situations for payouts that have demonstrated some level of mitigation.
That said, it is the expensive human that will likely ultimately be replace to justify the insurance plan to begin with. There is a reason Security was recommended in this particular discussion, and it isn't because Security professionals are paid poorly. The manpower cost is one of the most expensive components of Security, so it quickly becomes a target to find less-costly alternatives.
Re:Security. by __aaclcg7560 · 2017-01-09 04:22 · Score: 1

Also, Security depends on your ability to manage frustration, since it's often a losing battle.
The opposite end of the spectrum is boredom (i.e., watching paint dry). From my experience in IT support roles, the best jobs are the most boring jobs that no one else wants to do. When I did a PC refresh project for a local hospital, I relocated my desk into a storage closet that no one had seen the floor in eight years and spent six weeks in between tickets to sort, toss or recycle old IT equipment to reclaim 600-sqf of useable space. Boring as heck but someone had to do it.
Re:Security. by Grishnakh · 2017-01-09 07:59 · Score: 1

One manager (who was in way over her head on the technical side but who could play the political games well) wanted us to block ALL ICMP traffic on the network. Her reason for this was "ping is a security risk". Yet, she didn't understand that ICMP is more than just ping. Someone sent her a link to the Wikipedia page on ICMP to explain this and she requested documentation from Cisco or another big name vendor because she didn't trust Wikipedia. This enterprising, and frustrated, individual sent her a link to the RFC for ICMP.
Why would anyone do this? You're just going to risk the manager's ire.
The correct course of action is to simply block ICMP traffic, as the manager says (assuming, of course, that this manager is the one you report directly to; otherwise, only do such a thing if ordered by your direct manager). Then sit back and watch the SHTF. When it inevitably does, you have a good excuse: you were ordered by this manager.
Re:Security. by bsDaemon · 2017-01-09 08:13 · Score: 2

Much like the transition to cloud, most of the "eyes on glas" type jobs will be in MSSPs, and they'll have staff reduction sue to AI and workflow automation just like almost everything else. I have a really good sub niche right now that has low
Competition and goes widely unnoticed but pays a whole lot. I plan on milking it as long as I can, which is a lot longer than I was going to live with the stress from security "operations," that's for sure.
Re:Security. by mikeiver1 · 2017-01-09 11:18 · Score: 1

Get a job in the electrical trade, recession proof and they can't outsource your job. In the Union you can easily make $75K USD a year with little effort. As a man with a truck and a license you can make far in excess of $100K a year and work less than 40 a week in a decent sized city.
Re:Security. by angel'o'sphere · 2017-01-10 00:04 · Score: 1

It is not very professional for a high skilled and likely high payed professional to simply follow the managers orders without raising his concerns.
In plenty of countries the high skille professional would be hold responsible and liable for failing to advert the risks comming from such a decission.
So your advice is pretty idiotic.

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Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Security. by Grishnakh · 2017-01-10 03:41 · Score: 1

No, it's not. Maybe in the "plenty of countries" you refer to it is, but here in the US it's not. The only way a highly skilled professional here can be held liable for something is if it's actually criminally negligent, and we're not talking about that here, we're talking about blocking ICMP traffic on a corporate intranet. Finally, in this specific example, we're not even doing what you say (simply following the manager's orders without raising concerns): in this example, someone DID raise concerns (by sending her a link to Wikipedia). It's at that point when I think it's uncalled for to go to heroic lengths to change the manager's mind, because it's simply too dangerous to your job; after she deems Wikipedia to be "untrustworthy" I'd just get clarification that that's really what she wants done and I'd do it, with emails stating that this is her decision and any consequences are her problem, not mine, so when the CEO hears about it he'll blame her. At the same time, I'd start looking for a new job because any place with an upper manager this incompetent isn't going to last long.
Re:Security. by computational+super · 2017-01-10 10:29 · Score: 1

I think you're confusing how things ought to be with how they actually are.

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Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
Re:Security. by angel'o'sphere · 2017-01-14 19:43 · Score: 1

Regarding your blocking ICMP you might be right.
But your post implied you meant that as a general rule of action for a high trained professional :D
actually criminally negligent
Which is likely defined in the USA by a jury.
So probably it is best to be on the safe side?

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Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Re:Security. by Grishnakh · 2017-01-15 05:35 · Score: 1

For the ICMP thing, I can't imagine how going along with that order from a high-up manager would be "criminally negligent". In fact (I am not a networking engineer BTW), according to my quick research on stackoverflow, networks absolutely *can* work with ICMP blocked, just not well, and it makes it hard to debug some things. A lot of corporate networks seem to be partly broken anyway, and corporate computers running McAfee software are broken but sorta-working too, so running a network this way wouldn't be the end of the world.
Now I should hope that it didn't seem that I was advocating being actually *criminally negligent* in going along with managers' orders. That's an entirely different level. Going along with the company shooting itself in the foot (after documenting it well so you can CYA when the SHTF, and after raising an initial objection but caving after management insists) is entirely different from going along with orders to do something outright criminal. I only advocate not going to heroic lengths to help the company avoid shooting itself in the foot when its own high-up management is insisting on it, because most likely it's just going to result in your termination. If they're ordering you to do criminal things, you need to go to the police or other government authorities, and simultaneously start looking for a new job.

enjoying the job, why leave by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 00:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

A job is what pays your bills, so you can go and do things you like. You've got this one in the bag; so what are your hobbies, interests? Go pursue those. In the end, we're all worm-food, so make every day count.

Re:enjoying the job, why leave by msauve · 2017-01-09 01:20 · Score: 1

"A job is what pays your bills, so you can go and do things you like."

Some people are able to find jobs where they're able do things they like. Win-win!

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"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Re:enjoying the job, why leave by MBGMorden · 2017-01-09 01:36 · Score: 2

This I agree with. My advice when my younger sister went to college: whatever you do for a living you'll eventually learn to hate, because nothing is fun when you HAVE to do it all day every day. All you do when you pick something you love for a career is make a perfectly good hobby not fun anymore.
In the end - pick something that you're good at and that pays well. That money will allow you to enjoy life outside of your job, which is where the better parts of your life happen anyways.
And lean towards government sector jobs if you can accept a little less pay - the risk of outsourcing is significantly less (not zero, but less).

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"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Re:enjoying the job, why leave by ranton · 2017-01-09 03:15 · Score: 1

A job is what pays your bills, so you can go and do things you like. [...] In the end, we're all worm-food, so make every day count.
It's interesting that you talk about making every day count but discount the impact he can make with what is likely going to be his most meaningful contribution to society outside of his potential future family. I'd say if you want to make every day count, don't waste 8-9 hours of each day doing something that doesn't count, or doesn't count as much as it could if you put more effort in.
Just working for the weekends seams like a waste of 70% of the week to me.

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-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Re: enjoying the job, why leave by CaptainDork · 2017-01-09 03:32 · Score: 2

I'm 71 years old.
I worked in electronics at 19, this man's Navy for 9 years. Got out, worked repairing instruments in the oil patch, got a TRS-80 in 1978.
Went to work as data entry clerk in another oil patch in 1982, doing Lotus 123 on DOS using an Arnold Schwarzenegger portable with two floppy disk drives.
My computer obsession, savvy and curiosity placed me in Reston, Va. in front of the financial CEO.
He said, "People love you no matter where you go in our organization, but I have a big problem: You have no formal training and never went to college and you're not certified on anything."
I told him, "In your position, I would want the best college graduates I could find and I'd pay for their certification in whatever I needed, so I agree with you.
"However, you've heard that there's always an exception.
"I don't have a degree, but I'm teaching your people who do.
"I, sir, am that exception."
I was in.
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I think the problem is that you were barking up the wrong tree. Systems is not in your comfort zone.
If it were, you'd have a job where you were at least sweeping the floor in a building that had some computers.
Good luck.

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It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Re: enjoying the job, why leave by gfxguy · 2017-01-09 05:01 · Score: 1

I also think a lot of people have gone into to programming, but weren't really interested in it - like a lot of engineers in the 60s and 70s, they were told this is where the money is going to be, so that's where the went. Then when they got there they discovered they didn't really like it, or couldn't find any specialty because they weren't really all that interested.
The person in question here seems the same way. Programming is not an island - you apply programming to something, and then you get good at that. I liked games and computer graphics, so that's where I applied myself, and I didn't just do what I had to in college, I went off on my own and learned things, contributed to the graphics programming news groups (yes, a long time ago, now there are other means to discuss things with people); wrote a lot of demo programs, created a website that showed off images and movies I generated with my code (and put links to it in my resume and email correspondence), programatically, and had a job offer to do graphics before the graduation ceremony. I've been here over 20 years; my job has morphed around a bit, but I'm still doing computer graphics and still love my job.
But because I was passionate about it, I became a very good programmer overall, and had job offers doing programming in fields I wasn't particularly interested in (I interviewed because hey, I was graduating and knew I would need a job somewhere). I would gladly have worked doing some database programming or something to pay the bills while I kept looking for something involved with graphics.... I've already had this discussion with my wife, as I've made my position somewhat unique, but I've lasted through round after round of layoffs over the past 15 years - I'd do anything and not whine about it; I'd just keep looking in the field that I want the whole time.

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Stupid sexy Flanders.
Re:enjoying the job, why leave by gwolf · 2017-01-09 05:25 · Score: 1

I had this mindset for some time, around twenty years ago. I wanted to get a job at something *not* related to computers, because I didn't want to hate my hobby. I am not formally educated (I'm now a university professor, but because I formalized my "knowledge equivalence" after ~15 years of professional experience; I never went to college as a student). I am Mexican... So my outlook at age 18 was somewhat bleak. Maybe work as a store clerk? That'd be a sure way to have enough money for food and leave my mind free after the boring hours... ...Fortunately, I took a job at a small ISP when the small ISP fever took over, in the late 90s. Then, I moved on as a school systems administrator. I learnt a *lot* (and charged very little... But enough for a 20-year-old). After a couple of years, I became the systems administrator for a smaller campus of the country's main university. And... Well, with some minor fluctuations, I'm still here, and I enjoy my work. Over the years, besides a systems administrator, I also became a programmer, got involved with free software projects, and found that I also enjoy writing — I have two published books, a handful of academic papers, tens of columns...
I have professionalized myself, I decided to study a Masters degree on Information Security (which I should be finishing this semester), I teach Operating Systems at the College level. Of course, there are issues that get to my nerves in my work, with the people I work with... But overall, after 20 years in the trade, I love what I do and get quite reasonably well payed for it.
So, no, it's not a rule you will hate your work.
Re:enjoying the job, why leave by ranton · 2017-01-10 03:52 · Score: 1

It's sad, pathetic and a sign of criminal neglect on the part of your parents that you think his goal should be a "meaningful contribution to society".
It is unfortunate you feel that way. Thankfully many great members of our society disagree with you.

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-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

two jobs by turkeydance · 2017-01-09 00:43 · Score: 1

or more

gardener by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 00:51 · Score: 2, Funny

Lots of growth potential there!

Re:gardener by Mashiki · 2017-01-09 03:16 · Score: 1

They're better off picking up a trade. At least then in 5 years, they won't have to worry about their job being outsourced.

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Om, nomnomnom...

Re: Bloody SJWs by Adambomb · 2017-01-09 00:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

- SOCRATES by Plato

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Ice Cream has no bones.

Here's the problem with this submission by GrumpySteen · 2017-01-09 00:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

the submission explains simply that "I'm looking for satisfying and rewarding work,"

What people consider satisfying and rewarding is entirely subjective. What works for me, helping people without them realizing it was me, would leave most other people feeling unappreciated. The submitter is going to have to decide for him/her self what would they would find satisfying and rewarding.

Re:Here's the problem with this submission by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 01:39 · Score: 1

Santa?
Re:Here's the problem with this submission by nine-times · 2017-01-09 02:05 · Score: 1

I agree with this. Along with everything else, if you work for a small company, you may end up working with big companies as clients, partners, or suppliers. Having experience in the inner workings of big companies can be immensely helpful in understanding how to deal with them.

Big - Small by utahjazz · 2017-01-09 00:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

Start at a big company. A big software company. After a while, start looking to leave there and go to a small company.

Why: If you start at a small company, you will confuse the freedom for chaos. You will not appreciate how easy it is to get things done. If you start at a big company, you will learn some big company processes. A few of them are good, most of them are bad, and you will probably have a very constrained job. Then move to a small company where you can actually do stuff.

A prof once put it this way: Work at a big company to learn stuff, then work at a small company to apply what you've learned.

Re:Big - Small by asylumx · 2017-01-09 01:07 · Score: 1

I started at a big company. Parent's comment is dead on. Any advice how to convince yourself that you can go to a small company after a stint in the corporate world? Feels like at big corps individuals end up very specialized, and small companies usually want people who can fill multiple roles.
Re:Big - Small by JaredOfEuropa · 2017-01-09 01:25 · Score: 1

Working for a big company also gives you opportunities. Within the company itself you may have the opportunity to try various things in different roles, so you can find out what you enjoy doing best. If you work as a consultant, working for a big firm will open doors that most likely remain closed to you as a freelancer or in a small firm. In my experience, clients are much more willing to look past small "shortcomings" (i.e. lack of bullcrap certificates) and hire you, if you have a big company behind you. At the least that company will be willing and able to replace you if it turns out you suck at your job. Also, working for a big firm (especially as a consultant) gives you a great opportunity to build an extensive professional network. Lastly, a well known company name rarely hurts your resumé.

There are some downsides: as you said, the job might be much more constrained than you'd like. They will try to force you into a well defined role, and if they can't, be prepared to hear this at every annual appraisal: "What the hell are you, anyway?".

If you want to remain working at a large firm but also want to be a generalist, look and prepare for jobs where being a generalist is an asset, like solution or enterprise architect, or working as an "IT guy" in a small innovation or prototyping team. The last carries a bit of a risk: it's often hard to justify such teams in times of budget cuts.

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If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Re:Big - Small by btroy · 2017-01-09 03:38 · Score: 1

Funny enough I found the opposite better, actually starting in a mid-size software company.

Large corps will pigeon hole you into a technology that you may or may not like. From the perspective of some of the comments. "Go join a large company and get abused then go do something you like" makes no sense at all.

I found the opportunities inside a small or mid-size to be significant and yes you'll learn a ton. Just not likely to make a lot of money.
Mega-Corps pay better, but then you'll be specialized. You may be able to pursue other options, but be aware, you're a small cog in a very large organization. The key may have been "software company."

Regardless good luck.
Re:Big - Small by Hulfs · 2017-01-09 04:46 · Score: 1

The downside of this is that at a big company, you're likely to work the single role you were hired for and not much else. You're just the junior QA guy or the just the junior front end dev, etc. Unless you enrich your learning on your own time, you're can possibly get stuck siloing yourself off from a lot of career paths.
At a small company, you WILL out of sheer lack of numbers to fill every job responsibility have to fill a ton of different roles - application support, development, infrustructure, QA, desktop support, project managment/planning, analyst.
This scares some people and others (like me) enjoy the fact that even though I'm primarily a software developer that if our Oracle database for an application I have next to nothing to do with starts randomly puking that my boss is going to get me and the other couple senior guys who work for the company on the phone to brainstorm what to do to get it back online. Or if our primary desktop support guy is out, I may have to handle some tickets and help someone figure out why some random spreadsheet from a client won't open in Excel.
Re:Big - Small by utahjazz · 2017-01-09 07:16 · Score: 1

Build good relationships at the big company. Almost every job I've ever gotten was because someone I'd worked with before pinged me about an opening at their new company.
Re:Big - Small by Anubis+IV · 2017-01-10 09:38 · Score: 1

Bingo. I did three summer internships at two different NASA subcontractors during my time as an undergrad. I learned very quickly that I despised the red tape, the CYA mentality, and the glacial pace at which things moved at places like that, but I also learned that I truly appreciated working on projects that mattered, that pushed me to learn new things, and that allowed me to have a good work-life balance.
When I eventually looked for a "real" job, the first thing I did was make a ranked list of the things I wanted in a job, many of which were informed by my time at those internships. As you said, had I not had that experience at the larger companies first, I wouldn't have appreciated what I had at the smaller company I ended up going to.

Embedded software? by moeinvt · 2017-01-09 01:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think the best way to answer the question would be to select some areas where you'd like to live and then spend some time searching for jobs in those areas.

I was searching for employment ~18 months ago, mostly in the Northeast USA. It definitely seemed like I was seeing a lot of jobs for embedded software developers. So many that I was toying with the idea of going back to school and acquiring some of the requisite skills.

Re:Embedded software? by thegarbz · 2017-01-09 04:48 · Score: 1

It definitely seemed like I was seeing a lot of jobs for embedded software developers.
- Must have dark skin and speak with a Punjabi accent?
No seriously embedded development is something that is easily outsourced and the development easily copied into low cost products. Also the vast majority of end users don't care about slickness, speed or security.
Embedded device security on the other hand would be a great field to start specialising in very soon.

Best Job by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 01:01 · Score: 1

It's not the route they want you to take, but go do something different. Step back, find something you like and do it. And, while either while you're working or doing your off hours, start something bigger. Come out a project or patches to other projects and then when you take the first programming gig, you'll have a better level of confidence as well as some experience behind you. Importantly, you'll avoid the mistake found among all too many CS degree holders: thinking they know how everything works and they alone have a clue. You'll also have found a better sense of working with others and treating coworkers with respect. As a IT / systems guy, I can say you're career will be a lot better if you skip those big mistake.

Re:Best Job by WillAffleckUW · 2017-01-09 06:53 · Score: 1

Another alternative is to get an IT job in the field that is your hobby.
Say you are into dirt bikes - do IT for a company that does dirt bike racing. You'll get to use your skills and have fun doing it!

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-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --

Re:Waitress by fbobraga · 2017-01-09 01:01 · Score: 1

... at McDonald's!?

Have some fun! Do something "crazy" while you can by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 01:02 · Score: 4, Interesting

Later on, with spouse, children mortgage repayments you won't necessarily want / be able to:

- Do some IT support for expeditions going to exotic locations
- Do some contracting someplace like the South Pole
- The oil exploration or production rigs pay well (although not as much as before)
- Cruise ships are pretty much nonstop partying; bring plenty of aspirins and condoms
- Holiday villages, ski resorts: see above
- Voluntary work, either at home or abroad. Can be very depressing but also rewarding
- Joing the military on a fixed-term deal

I've done a few of the above; provided amazing experiences (many good, some bad) and it'll make your CV stand out from the crowd too.

Re: Bloody SJWs by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 01:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

perhaps... this is why great wealthy civilizations eventually collapse? Due to the children getting used to that 'level of luxury' that they no longer strive and do the hardest things to push their civilization to the next level?

Is that all? by TheRaven64 · 2017-01-09 01:09 · Score: 2

So, in this CS degree, did you learn any actual computer science, or did you just pick up specific technologies that will be obsolete in a decade? From that list of things, it sounds like you got a software engineering qualification from a trade school, not a computer science degree.

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News

We don't know either by heck · 2017-01-09 01:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

We don't know what you find interesting or challenging. you may not know either until you bounce through some place.

go find a company where you like the people; you've got the skill set that most companies are looking for. And figure out what you like. While happiness does in part come from not having a soul sucking job, having a not sucking job that pays enough to not have worries and be able to do the other things in life is just as important.

Despite what they tell you, a job is still just a means to make money to be able to afford to live. You can be paid to do that which you enjoy (shh, don't tell them) - and it is still a job. And before someone says "but but but" I am not saying take a job that sucks your soul out through your eye balls; I am saying I accept the fact that while I love cooking, and I also recognize that when I am done I have to clean the kitchen and if I don't clean the kitchen I suck as a person who shares that kitchen with others. Cleaning the kitchen is fun (and meaning it) said no one ever. (So as much as I do enjoy my job, it comes with some responsibilities that I have to suck it up, realize this is what I accept money for, and go do them. Much like everything in life. No parent ever said they love emptying the diaper pail either, but the end result has been worth it)

back to the first paragraph - a lot of us have bounced through companies and jobs. Our interests have changed. Our skill sets have changed. The job market has changed. When I started, the Web didn't exist. FORTRAN and C were king. I bounced through CAD/CAM, through two small startups (one still exists, and the other long since swallowed by another startup), to contracting, to a large financial company (where we're playing with Angular and such - you'd be surprised what Fortune 100 companies actually do - but also the job stability is through the roof and I have a kid about to start college, which ties back to I have a job to make the rest of life better)

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to tie an onion to my belt and go yell at clouds. That last paragraph made me feel very old.

Re:We don't know either by ausekilis · 2017-01-09 02:40 · Score: 2

I agree with everything said here and want to add something else:

Give some serious thought to what it is you really enjoy doing and find a job that best matches that.

I wanted to get into game design and development, it's what I spent a majority of my undergrad and masters taking classes for. I then realized that the game industry is insanely competitive and can be feast-or-famine with the bringing in of temp labor for the 3-6 months of crunch time before a release. Add in the "death march" of 60+ hour weeks and that grass doesn't look so green. I happened to fall into a job within a modelling and simulation group doing "serious gaming". While it didn't have the glamour of being the next Call of Duty (or even a gamepad anywhere in the building), it was still very close to my interests and with that job I was able to keep learning and work on some very interesting projects with great people. Plus, I was able to date and spend time doing what I want to do because I was limited to 40 hours a week.

Oh, and keep your eyes open for doorways to success and work on that professional network. Every single one of my jobs (except my current one) has been due to someone knowing me and looking for my skill set. It's not who you know, it's who knows you.

Something that wont' get outsourced.. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 01:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

Look at what is happening with the university IT jobs in California getting outsourced and understand the lesson: If someone can do your job cheaper, you will eventually lose it.

Several options to consider that guard against that:

1) IT Security - a very in demand skill and one that is less likely (right now) to be outsourced
2) Big Data - data is the new black gold - learn how to mine it and you'll do fine.
3) Defense Contracting - if you can get a security clearance, there is abundant work where defense contracts are strong (around DC and military installations.)
4) Write OSS - get a day job that is not too stressful and work on a piece of OSS at night - do something you have passion for. Produce something good and you'll always have work from that or other projects in need.
5) Work with an emerging language and master it - Scala, Swift, Go, etc., are all gaining steam. Relatively speaking, not many developers know there is fewer competition for people who are good with them (unlike Java where the market is flooded with good and bad talent.)

Most important: Manage your own career by staying educated and constantly look for the next big thing. Your success and failure are controlled by you, not by your employer.

Re:Something that wont' get outsourced.. by dpidcoe · 2017-01-09 03:19 · Score: 1

3) Defense Contracting - if you can get a security clearance, there is abundant work where defense contracts are strong (around DC and military installations.)
This is a really fun option. Generally in the defense industry there's a sliding scale between stable/boring production projects and unstable/exciting R&D projects. Get on the R&D (like real "make something new" R&D, not "we're going to make a minor improvement on an existing product" R&D) side in a big company and you'll never be bored.

What did you envision yourself doing with tech? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 01:21 · Score: 1

When I was in elementary school... I remember my grand dad walked in with our first PC (gateway.. moo) which had windows 95 on it. At first I was amazed, but I was even more wow'd when I opened it up and looked inside. That was when I decided that I wanted to work with computer hardware. I wanted to take then apart and put them back together, and wow what a fun job that would be... "it'll be like legos!" I told myself lol

The reality is that by the time I was trained and felt competent in hardware, things were moving to software. My first position was desktop (or 'deskside') support, and although that contained a bit of hands on hardware tinkering... I was mostly imaging machines and handling easy "yes or no" issues with walk ins. Shortly after that, I moved up into networking/VoIP, so now I'm working with internet enabled phones... something I thought I'd never be doing. But it's "tech-like" enough that I still enjoy the work.

The reality is that the tech industry is still very much a treadmill. You just jump in, and start learning. What is relevant today may not matter a year or even 6 months from now. So just keep an open mind, try and get yourself excited about learning new stuff... and jump in. You may be surprised at what end up doing, and even more surprised when/if you end up liking it. The fact that you know you like technology and enjoy working with it will get you far.

I know thats very broad "feel good" advice, but it has served me well so far (I've only been in the industry 2yrs up to this point).

Defense contractor by gatkinso · 2017-01-09 01:27 · Score: 1

Can't be outsourced to H-1B's.

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I am very small, utmostly microscopic.

Re:Defense contractor by jittles · 2017-01-09 01:39 · Score: 4, Informative

Can't be outsourced to H-1B's.
While this is true, you have to be careful that you don't let yourself get pigeon holed into old and obsolete technology. I was doing defense work when they shut down the shuttle program at Cape Canaveral and I tell you, I have never see so many resumes from brilliant people who had almost zero chance of finding a new job without brushing up their skills. A lot of them had been at NASA and the Cape for 20+ years and we interviewed them out of professional courtesy, and to help them brush up on their interview skills and point them in the right direction on skills that were useful. But even my company was a solid 10 years behind modern industry in so many different ways.
Re:Defense contractor by gatkinso · 2017-01-09 01:51 · Score: 1

Even though they usually are the same companies doing the work and there is a bit of overlap (say when NASA launches a DOD satellite), NASA and DOD work are totally different animals.

--
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Re:Defense contractor by jittles · 2017-01-09 02:11 · Score: 1

Even though they usually are the same companies doing the work and there is a bit of overlap (say when NASA launches a DOD satellite), NASA and DOD work are totally different animals.
This is entirely true that the work is different, but the problem is that both industries tend to stay behind the technology curve by a significant margin. If you get stuck working with an old technology on a project that gets canned then you'll quickly find yourself without a job and will have difficulty finding a new one. I personally loved the defense work I was doing. It was challenging, interesting, and I got to "blow shit up" when I was testing my work. It's just not always dependable. I had the good fortune of being able to work on the most interesting parts of our projects and to participate in business development. That gave me the advantage of knowing what contracts we were hoping to win and what technology I needed to know to keep myself employed.
Re:Defense contractor by dpidcoe · 2017-01-09 03:27 · Score: 1

I had the good fortune of being able to work on the most interesting parts of our projects and to participate in business development. That gave me the advantage of knowing what contracts we were hoping to win and what technology I needed to know to keep myself employed.
That part is key. I've been doing defense contracting for a while now and as much as I hate all of the business and management stuff (I just want to build things and then blow them up) I've always had an ear out for the business development side and it's served me well. Knowing what's coming up next not only allows me to build skills in that direction, but it also allows me to look for places where work I'm doing on one project can also be used on an upcoming project with minimal modification.

Don't go to by outriding9800 · 2017-01-09 01:29 · Score: 2

The university of California

Easy answer by Nidi62 · 2017-01-09 01:36 · Score: 4, Informative

Plumbing, welding, electrician, A&P, etc. All jobs that are in high and constant demand, offer a chance for pretty good earning potential, and can't be offshored. Depending on which one you choose you even have the option of starting your own business down the line.

--
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil

Do whatever you want. by Qbertino · 2017-01-09 01:42 · Score: 1

We IT experts are, compared to the rest of the ordinary crowd, in the extremely fortunate position that we can basically do whatever we like to do in our field and earn either decent or obscene amounts of cash while doing so. There is just about no other industry today where that is possible.

Do whatever you want. If you don't know what you want, try things out. Keep looking. ... Steve Jobs was right on this one.

Think you have the great new app / service up your sleeve? Build that.
Want to learn Oracle/SAP/Whatever wear a suit all day and earn big bucks quick? Go ahead.
Want to be a digital nomad? Get going.
Want to do web? Go right ahead.
Want to do embedded? Do it.
Want to do engineering IT? Get into a trainee programm already.
Science? Same thing.

My advice generally:

1.) You've got a degree but probably no or not that much practical experience. Know that that is what you are lacking and what you want and need to gain. So don't be afraid to burn yourself. Don't think because you have a degree you are better and are less prone to failure. Many big things start out with sticky-tape and chickenwire and grow from there - don't get all academic and shit if you join a startup and the crew is a battle-hardened pragmatic bunch and does things accordingly. Be useful with your academic background and your 'l33t skillz but also listen and try to see the big picturee. Academic and reality are to different pairs of shoes. Learn do discern.

2.) Be bold. My biggest problems looking back on my career was being to timid. I was careful and not reckless, which is good - especially if you have a kid to take care of - but I also was often too timid at certain points. When life pushed me over the edge and I had to take the plunge I always felt much much better a year late
r.

The cool thing about being a CS grad is that however you fail you can always get back on your feet quickly, as IT experts are in demand right now.

Good luck with your career. Enjoy it.

--
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca

Re:Bloody SJWs by AmiMoJo · 2017-01-09 01:47 · Score: 1

irrational hatred

I can tell you have nothing but love for your fellow man.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC

BOFH by gsmb · 2017-01-09 01:48 · Score: 1

Become The Bastard Operator From Hell! http://bofh.bjash.com/index.ht...

Re:BOFH by l0n3s0m3phr34k · 2017-01-09 02:18 · Score: 1

Dunno why you have a 1 on this! There are MANY good pointers from TBOFH. I use the "excuse list" all the time; actually trying to explain issues to end-users is often just a waste of energy. I've found the quickest way to get someone's attention is to just cut off specific IT resources. When people in our Mexico plant wouldn't call us back or respond to numerous emails (in both Spanish and English) about their impending email domain transition I finally just started converting the mailboxes 24 hours after initial contact. I'd make sure the very last email was from us, with my (native) Spanish-speaking helpdesk guy's contact info and an explanation of why they wouldn't be getting any more email until they called in.

Had some VPN "proposal" errors, couldn't get the network admin in Brazil to respond to me for over a week. Disabled their site-to-site VPN, got a call within a few minutes. Sometimes being a BOFH is the only way to get stuff done.. I've got the excuse list printed out on my wall.
Re:BOFH by gsmb · 2017-01-09 02:24 · Score: 1

" I've got the excuse list printed out on my wall" OP, learn from this comment!
Re:BOFH by gsmb · 2017-01-09 02:25 · Score: 1

as the the '1' yeah put that down to an automated '1' for the mention of BOFH!

Automobile Repair by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 01:48 · Score: 1

Automobile Repair

DON'T do VHDL for FPGAs unless you love it by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 01:48 · Score: 1

Been there, done that.

That's how I started out & I would strongly discourage it for a new hire with 0 experience. That's a very specialized skill. Start down that path & you wake up in a few years realizing that your employment opportunities are very constrained. Writing VHDL/Verilog and doing synthesis/simulation is just one small step in a design process that involves dozens of steps which each lend themselves to specialization.
Furthermore, there aren't many people looking to do ASICs these days. Commodity hardware or semi-custom commodity hardware(see gaming consoles) is good enough for the majority of applications, so it's really only the big guys who need & can afford ASICs. VHDL is still big, but Verilog is bigger(& better IMO) ... although everyone I know in the field inevitably picks up some of both.

Don't do it unless you're going to love it.

posting as an AC because I work for an ASICs/semi-custom supplier.

Why ask us and not your college councillor? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 01:52 · Score: 1

Seriously, you are asking US?!?!? Go talk to your career coucillor who deals with facts rather than opinions and has real data for you to consider in this matter.

hmmm considering the quality of CS grads these day by Anonymous Coward · 2017-01-09 01:54 · Score: 1

waste management

Keep Learning From Part-time and Search away by adosch · 2017-01-09 01:57 · Score: 3, Insightful

Here's some advice: You're the new out-of-college-kid-on-the-block. Just because you scratced-the-surface on all those languages, network and sys-admin tech in college, doesn't mean you're even CLOSE to an expert and haven't done it in a professional setting at all where you need to give a shit about 10,000 other things besides 'getting it done and working'.

Just because something seems dead end to you doesn't mean you don't learn, and it also doesn't mean you STOP learning there because you've made that mental decision that it's dead-end. There's tons of skills to learn where you're at --- but there's also tons of what-not-to-do to learn as well. No place I've ever worked at did everything right; there is always things that got me to the next level at places, then there were things I absolutely despised that I had zero control or muscle-to-flex to change because it really did need addressing.

Regardless if you're going to sling code for a living or be a sys/network admin, they are two completely different worlds in terms of professionalism and attack. My 'sys-admin' code/scripts/software I write for automation, jobs, tasks, gluing stuff together, ect. is COMPLETELY different from doing serious code development in any shop that it's bottom line is: your code makes us money or provides us a vehicle for revenue. My fundamentals might be the same in terms of development style (e.g. 90's waterfall vs. agile), but I still use a CVS of some type and practice secure development, but it's a far cry from writing a web/mobile/client-server app for users that maybe supports a business model or creates business revenue --- then you need to know your shit not just writing 'hello world' in college 50 times with 50 languages.

Keep doing what you're doing and you'll know what you want to be. Don't just pick a field because it's some hot topic of the day in the IT world. Figure out what you want vs. what's giving a slightly bigger paycheck at the end of the week. People will pay you what you're worth, trust me. But if you don't learn the skills and what-not-to-do's and gleen as much off the smarter-than-you folks, you'll just be chasing your tail.

Re:Keep Learning From Part-time and Search away by wildstoo · 2017-01-09 03:06 · Score: 1

Just because you scratced-the-surface on all those languages, network and sys-admin tech in college, doesn't mean you're even CLOSE to an expert and haven't done it in a professional setting at all where you need to give a shit about 10,000 other things besides 'getting it done and working'.
This. If you think that the biggest challenges in your career will be technical rather than political/organizational, you're gonna have a bad time.

Dubious opinion by cloud.pt · 2017-01-09 02:05 · Score: 1

Most answers here are right to some degree, yet highly context-dependent, such as better or worse regions for IT professionals or a high personal bias on whats's better or worse for them, and what their connections say about company X or Y.

My own personal bias favors big data and the finance/security/energy consulting sectors as the most prolific, salary-wise, but I am inclined to say the place where you will get he most satisfaction is one where you do what you like making what you need. For instance, startups are a great place for having some leverage on the workload, while not being a great source of income (but in some narrow cases, you do get what you're worth and the fact the startup might explode financially are great incentives to be on them, but they're always hit or miss).

I started in finance consulting, and didn't enjoy myself the least, but some similar peers who got luckier on their projects/teams managed to stay longer (some didn't even leave) and now they're making big bucks without the exhaustive, burnout-inducive hours they had at the beginning. Health, medical, public sector and energy consulting are like that, especially big-data oriented positions, yet still very demanding.

I'd say, look at your own opinion of how hard you want to focus on the kick-start of your professional life - do you want to "live" more before you're 35-40 or do you want to make the big bucks no matter the hours and be comfortable in your 40's? In the case of the former, risk yourself into some startups or some broadly popular, employee-centric companies that give perks such as a short schedule, long holidays and are big on team-building and freebies. In the later case, just find the best salary in an established, big revenue name and accept the fact your time and mind space can (will) be syphonned out to the point of exhaustion.

Re:Figure out what you want to do by oh_my_080980980 · 2017-01-09 02:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

Exactly. You rattled off a bunch of technologies as if that determines your career path. Those are just skills, which change over time.

What do you want to do?

What do you like?

Those are the questions you need to answer. Perhaps the best advice is go see a career counselor to determine your career. It may have nothing to do with CS.

Re: Bloody SJWs by Adambomb · 2017-01-09 02:14 · Score: 1

In this case it would be because of the rise of the Roman empire; You got a point though that it would be interesting if there was a means of quantifying whether complacency in later generations of ancient Greeks had a significant impact on their inability to compete.

--
Ice Cream has no bones.

Re:If a US citizen, go look at a clearance by 0100010001010011 · 2017-01-09 02:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

CDL isn't a bad thing to have with a technical degree.

When I worked doing experimental on highway trucks companies almost always preferred to send an engineer with a CDL over a CDL driver AND an engineer. If something goes wrong it's easier to diagnose something you helped work.

In the next ~5 years these trucks are going to need a lot of validation hours and tests. A CS major with a CDL would be a prime candidate to run validation tests.

If pay is no object... by wezelboy · 2017-01-09 02:25 · Score: 1

Go to grad school.

First, by hcs_$reboot · 2017-01-09 02:26 · Score: 1

what does he want to do: 1) Programming 2) Consulting and advising 3) Sales 4) Managing ?

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Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...

Re: Bloody SJWs by Opportunist · 2017-01-09 02:33 · Score: 1

Odd. I never met a single one in RL. On YouTube, yes, lots and lots. But as far as I can tell, all of them are on YouTube, what's out here in the real world is generally sane.

Can't say that I mind that distribution.

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.

Pay is also important by H3lldr0p · 2017-01-09 02:35 · Score: 2

I really don't know where the submitter is coming from but neglecting pay speaks to someone who doesn't quite understand how the world works. Of course, being a recent college grad they probably have certain idealistic visions of how the world should work. Let us debase them, gently, of some of them.

In terms of salary, by not going for at least industry average, you're setting yourself up for future financial troubles.

Don't be afraid of getting paid. Never be afraid of asking for more money. Money is not the end-all, be-all of existence but it is necessary for moving through this world. Get what you need now. It is a useful base for the future when you've done your work, when you've done a few miracles. For those times when you no longer have a safety position to fall back on.

Oh, those times will come. When you least expect them. So get paid. Get paid as much as you can.

Re:Figure out what you want to do by jonnyj · 2017-01-09 02:35 · Score: 1

What do you want to do?

What do you like?

These are the right questions. Near the start of your career, rather than asking, "What job shall I do next," instead ask, "What job will best qualify me for the job after next?"

Re:Figure out what you want to do by cayenne8 · 2017-01-09 02:42 · Score: 1

This quote on the article really stood out to me:

"pay is not that important."

Say What.....?!?!?

If pay is not important, that sounds like you are wealthy enough not to have to work (assuming you're keen on supporting yourself, and not living in mommy's basement forever having them support you)....in which case I'm asking...."Why are you asking about work if you don't care what you get paid?"

If you are independently wealthy, you don't NEED to work, and hence can spend you time doing whatever you wish.

You don't work a job for someone, unless you need money to live on, to support a family, etc.....and in that case, PAY is pretty much the driving force.

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........

Advice from a veteran by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · 2017-01-09 03:02 · Score: 1

I just don't know if it's realistic to want "satisfying and rewarding work". This is something I see a lot of millennials say and believe me we all get this, but I just don't know if it's realistic. To me this is kind of like people saying that if you don't love your job you should quit it and find one you do love. The sad reality is that there just aren't enough "jobs you love" to go around for everybody to have one. If you go home at the end of the day and you're not stressed out from work and you're not screaming about your job and it's not taking a toll on your health, that is a realistic best case scenario for most people. I had a job I loved once. I'm not in it any more. You know why? I chased money. That job spun off a new company during the internet boom and I was given the option of remaining in the job I loved or joining the new company. The old job I loved was laying off a few people and it froze salaries for what would end up being 2 or 3 years so I went with the spin off. For the time of the job freezes at my old company the spin off looked great and I got pay increases. But we got bought out by a European company who forced out our CEO and the new CEO was pretty hostile towards US workers in general. The job got a lot worse and in the end I and others got layoff notices. I found a new job and my new company is pretty good compared to most out there, but I wish I was still with the job I loved. Those I know who rode out the pay freezes are still there. The vast majority of my co-workers who went with me to the spun off company are long gone from it, having been laid off at various times. So leaving a job you do actually love to chase more money isn't something I'd ever do again and I wish I hadn't done it. I wish I could go back to the old company I loved, but I can't. They don't have much turnover there because it's a pretty good place to work.

As a new CS grad you do need to full grasp that management in US companies usually doesn't respect your job or what you do and they'll always be looking to replace you with cheaper workers, probably from India. Those cheaper workers won't do as good a job as you will, but management doesn't care. They don't respect your work nor do they want to pay US wages for it. They'll take "sort of works" if it's cheap enough. This is just going to get worse as you age. My current employer does value its US employees but there are limits. We also hire plenty of cheap H-1B workers or simply add spots on our India team. The race to the bottom for wages is a race you'll never win. Maybe if you're lucky you'll be able to finish your career without any major disruptions, but likely you'll change jobs a lot as the number of US employers who actually value US IT staff continues to shrink. Today there's another article on Slashdot about a major California university replacing its IT staff with foreign workers. This is going to be the norm for you in your career. If you find at some point you're tired of this crap, get into US federal government work as quickly as you can. The Feds don't do too many layoffs and security concerns make it very difficult to impossible to outsource the work. There are pros and cons to this kind of work, which I did for some years after I graduated. The pay is better now than when I started and you get a lot of vacation time, which I really liked. On the downside a lot of government IT jobs, even programming ones, are very specific to the government and you'll get skills that will be of little use on the outside world in the unlikely event you are ever laid off. Pay won't match outside companies though. You'll always have friends who are getting more than you and working for the Feds may require you to live in small towns that just suck your soul and fill you with despair.

If you're really really good at what you do, you may be able to work for one of the top employers like Google, etc. who may give you great work with great benefits. But again, there are only so many of those jobs. You may be in

Re:Figure out what you want to do by nickersonm · 2017-01-09 03:44 · Score: 1

Not once the pay is enough to comfortably support one's lifestyle. Then job satisfaction is the most important factor for many people, including myself.

Embedded Systems by WDot · 2017-01-09 03:47 · Score: 1

Consider looking into embedded software positions. In these kind of industries you're focused on programming a processor to control something physical: a radio, an elevator, a microwave, car subsystems, robots. This industry doesn't always use the sexiest of programming languages and tools (you'll likely be doing some flavor of assembly, C, or C++ on crappy vendor-specific compilers and IDEs), but you it's very rewarding to see your code have physical effect. I definitely preferred that over writing websites and sysadmin work.

That said, college is much more intellectually intense than industry often is. You'll start your career learning a bunch of industry-specific technical stuff, but very quickly a vast majority of your learning is soft skills like communication, project management, business sense, navigating a team environment, and so on. This may be "unsatisfying."

Another thing to consider is that wherever you work for a few years might yield a few intellectual interests that you didn't know about. For example, I worked in embedded for a few years and fell in love with digital signal processing. I ended up going for an MS in the subject and started a PhD. Don't be afraid to learn things outside of "pure CS." There's a lot of engineering (in all fields) that's heavy on analysis, math, and programming.

Mainframe programmer by Danathar · 2017-01-09 03:48 · Score: 1

If you can become an expert in the stuff the old guys who are retiring and dying are great at, you will be paid YUGE money and have lots of job security.

Hello new CS Grad! by Notabadguy · 2017-01-09 03:55 · Score: 1

The answer is...

Call Center Level 1 Tech Support.

Re:Figure out what you want to do by cayenne8 · 2017-01-09 03:59 · Score: 1

Not once the pay is enough to comfortably support one's lifestyle.

But, does one ever really attain that level of pay?

I never will, I always want more, UNTIL, the moment I make enough to put quickly away and NOT ever have to work again....likely enough that will require a powerball win.

I work for one and one reason only....to make money to support my lifestyle. I pretty much make more than I spend now, but that extra goes to retirement and you can never really put enough away for most normal working mortals.

So, no...I have no love whatsoever for my work, none for IT work I do, BUT, it is the best and only way I have for now to make the type of $$ I need for currently enjoyed lifestyle and be able to put some money away.

If I win the lottery, you'll see me leaving skid marks out the door.

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........

Restaurant Server / Realtor by gavron · 2017-01-09 04:07 · Score: 1

The tips will be great. Ok, they'll be ok. Well, you'll get tipped every now and then.

Also you can work on your real estate license. One day you'll be a broker.

Did you get that CS degree framed? If so you'll have trouble digging glass shards out of your ass when you wipe.

E

driving by guygo · 2017-01-09 04:09 · Score: 1

forklift driving comes to mind

Easy Peazy Strategy Just for You! by Texmaize · 2017-01-09 04:09 · Score: 1

I hear the U.C. University system is looking to hire some new I.T. personal. You just have to move to India first!

--
"Liberalism is a very noble idea, currently controlled by some very bad people. Be sure you do not get the two confused.

This. What excites you, gets you pumped up? by raymorris · 2017-01-09 04:15 · Score: 1

Absolutely this. Do what you enjoy. Some people enjoy teaching, some people enjoy solving puzzles, etc. Figure out at least two or three things that get you pumped up. Then figure out which jobs combine at least two things that you enjoy and work toward doing that.

Re:VHDL for FPGAs by ezelkow1 · 2017-01-09 04:23 · Score: 1

That probably depends on his 'type' of CS degree. If it was more CE focused and he had some experience in it, maybe, but good luck trying to find a job if he had a true CS degree without any VHDL/synthesis classes. Not only will they probably not bother looking at him for that job, but he will be going up against many other grads with cmpE degrees that do have experience from the classroom doing this

Everybody is studying security. Insurance created by raymorris · 2017-01-09 04:24 · Score: 1

Insurance companies created the fire code, Underwriters Laboratories (UL listed), and many other organisations and standards to reduce their risk. As insurance companies become involved in information security, they may well insist that to be covered companies need to comply with various standards, they may offer a rate discount if all of your developers take continuing education on security, etc. So the involvement of security companies will likely mean that companies will spend less dealing with security incidents by spending more on prevention, as part of the annual budget.

On the other hand, everybody knows that security has been growing in the last few years, and with the weak economy it's the only thing that's been growing, so the growth has been hyped. A LOT of college students are planning do go into security, as well as experienced sysadmins, programmers, etc. There will be a lot of college grads competing for the nee jobs in information security. I'm glad that I've been in the field for 20 years; the flood of new people aren't competing with me for the position of CSO.

Re:Plumer. by barrywalker · 2017-01-09 04:27 · Score: 1

Or electrician. These are jobs that are required everywhere and are hard to outsource and automate.

Re:Just note you have degree by ranton · 2017-01-09 04:28 · Score: 1

CS basically dead, in the US, thanks to the H1-B.

Whatever you do, don't listen to crap like this. CS related fields are among the fastest growing fields in the US. But it is not a career where you can be passive in your career development, since you can easily find yourself unemployable if you stagnate for too long.

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-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

security audit after an event by ole_timer · 2017-01-09 04:51 · Score: 1

you get exposed to software development, IT operations, users, customers, etc. etc. there's no downside.

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nothing to see here - move along

Re:security audit after an event by ole_timer · 2017-01-09 04:52 · Score: 1

go to work for one of the forensic firms - fti, stroz frieberg, navigant, etc.

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nothing to see here - move along
Re:security audit after an event by ole_timer · 2017-01-09 08:06 · Score: 1

it's called learning from more experienced individuals. if he had to wait he'd just get old.

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nothing to see here - move along

Re:Helpdesk by __aaclcg7560 · 2017-01-09 05:09 · Score: 1

Or explain to other CS graduates that no one is standing in a cubicle farm to turn on their computer like they do at a university lab. You're be surprised by how little CS graduates know about PCs.

CNC machining by Kormoran · 2017-01-09 05:20 · Score: 1

Production works are going to be few, but those few are going to be high-skill profiles. A CNC is easy to program (compared to standard programming languages). You can think most of the work is done by CAM programs, but it's not exactly so. Many tasks are like drill & tap 4 holes on a plate, far too simple for the kind of time you waste whipping up a CAM. A good operator that can program his machine on the fly has an edge. And boys, those kind of works ARE well payed.

Give up by joboss · 2017-01-09 05:37 · Score: 1

Fluffler. Stay out of the IT industry. It's horrible these days. You'll spend all your time fixing other people's code and none of it writing your own.

What you should do with your CS degree.. by worldlender1 · 2017-01-09 05:39 · Score: 1

I'm a Technical Recruiter and so this question is near and dear to my heart. I think the beginning to finding your answer begins with some questions. 1. Do you want to work close to the metal, ie robotics? Do you enjoy design, ie UX development? Are you interested more in developing applications, games, distributed systems? What about Internet of things (IOT), AI, security? I recommend going on LinkedIn and finding people that are doing the kinds of jobs that you are most interested in considering, people who work for the companies that you think you'd like to work for, and writing them a message on LinkedIn that is a "expertise request", and explain to them that you're interested in asking them some questions about the position that they have so that you could see if it's a direction that you might want to go. For each position I'd reach out to multiple people. Some of these people should be new, like you, because they can tell you a bit about what to experience up front when you're starting out. Choosing alumni from your current college provides you an in that you might not otherwise have, as you know something you two have in common right up front. I'd also pick someone who is a senior engineer, or engineering manager to reach out to as well and ask questions of. This might also have the possibility of turning into an internship for you. :-) I'd also spend time thinking about what classes you enjoyed the most in your current program, and talk to the teachers of those classes to see if they might recommend any specific alumni you reach out to, or if there's anyone that they would recommend. They also themselves may have useful insights. I wish you the best!

go as big as possible by smithcl8 · 2017-01-09 06:14 · Score: 1

Take your the best job you can find with the biggest company and the highest pay first. Companies don't just pay you what they think they should....when you change jobs, you tell them what you make and they bump it a % to make you happy. I've found that by starting at a small shop with low pay, it took me many years and many job hops to get to where recent college grads were as soon as they got into the workforce. That said, paying my dues that way taught me a lot of technical stuff that corporate paper pushers never actually learned. Many (actually most) IT jobs in corporate America are basically project management or "service delivery" positions, and you may not even get your hands dirty in the code/infrastructure. It took me years to get to that type of job and then I realized it wasn't for me. Fortunately, I was able to move back to technical work and keep the pay. And accept the fact right now that forever, your family will think you fix computers for a living.

CS fields by outerlimitsurvey · 2017-01-09 06:40 · Score: 1

I have a degree in CS and have been working with computers for almost 30 years. We are "knowledge workers." We are valued because we have specific skills and knowledge that not many people possess. The most important thing in our field is to be an autodidact. My job is almost completely different than it was 5 years ago. I don't know what my job will look like 5 years from now but I suspect it will change more in the next 5 years than it has in the last 5. You need to keep learning whatever is valuable to know or you will soon be obsolete. If you enjoy systems work get a job based on your system administration skill set and keep learning. The current trend is from virtual machines on local clusters to the cloud. That is the skill set to know now and the next few years.

That's the wrong question. by cshark · 2017-01-09 06:45 · Score: 1

You've got a lot of opportunity. I can't really tell you what a "good job" is, without knowing you. The question I would ask you, if we were sitting face to face, is "what do you like to do?" And then we would go from there.

I would probably tell you that fields like machine learning and information security are good, but competitive. I would tell you to avoid the gaming industry, unless you know someone who can get you into one of the big studios. This is more likely if you live in a city where there is a big gaming studio, like LA or Seattle.

And I would strongly urge you to look for less competitive industries like banking and insurance, where jobs are very stable, if you wanted stable. If you wanted a resume full of big names and shorter term projects with an entrepreneurial tract inline for the second half of your career, you need to get hooked up with one of the bigger staffing firms, or consulting companies, and not be afraid to travel for work. Robert Half, Yoh, Aditi, TCS, IBM, those guys.

At least your first time out, spend $300 to $700 on a good, professionally written resume, and study how it's done. Don't underestimate the power of a nice looking, well written resume. Oh, and also remember that you can still game job boards by renewing your resume every day, and using heavy keyword concentrations in the skillsets and areas you want. It works basically the same way that SEO did before the clampdown. Don't go crazy with it, but be aware.

If you want to go straight into startups, get on LinkedIn, and make friends with people in the industry, and others that work in the field. Reach out to them. Tell them who you are and what you're about. Get involved with user groups in your area, if you live in a city. Get involved with business networking groups. Be in places where you meet people, and have an opportunity to talk and shake hands... a lot.

No matter what you're doing, you need to understand that most (not all, but almost all) technical jobs are about interacting with people, first and foremost. If you're antisocial, and you don't like talking to people, or working with them, you'll do okay to a point, but there will be a limit to how far you're able to go with this. In the event that you've been told otherwise, by anyone, I feel terrible for you and what you've gotten yourself into.

So get people skills if you don't have them. Build them, quickly.

As a CS graduate, you're officially a salesman. Congratulations.

Your career will be spent selling yourself, selling your ideas, selling your solutions, and building alliances and consensus with coworkers, vendors, contractors, and management.

Get good at this, or your life will be hard.

It's also a field where ongoing education is essential. Find a place where you can get courses online. Take them, learn the topics in and out. List them on your resume as you go, and keep a current list.

That's everything I can think of, off the top of my head.

Good luck.

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This signature has Super Cow Powers

Biostatistics Researcher by WillAffleckUW · 2017-01-09 06:47 · Score: 1

Seriously, massive 10 year growth in that.

You have the skills, can you think outside the binary box?

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Re:Security, is it actually a growth industry? by WillAffleckUW · 2017-01-09 06:50 · Score: 1

I'm not so sure. If we can believe Comrade Trump, he's going to fire a lot of NSA CIA and FBI and other mil security folks, so it might not be as easy to get a job in that for the next few years, since there will be far more qualified people suddenly looking for civilian corporate work in that field.

Of course, if he's just lying about that, and isn't a Russian operative, there should be an open field in security due to the ever increasing demand.

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-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --

Re:Figure out what you want to do by LunaticTippy · 2017-01-09 07:02 · Score: 1

That sounds sad! I'm fairly seriously underpaid for my schooling and experience but my job is so satisfying, flexible and easy that I am happy to stay. I could probably double my pay by simply switching jobs but I'd have to give up a lot. I'm not prepared to do that, I would rather retire later and be happy the whole time I am working.

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Man, you really need that seminar!

Stay where you are and spiff up the resume. by generic_screenname · 2017-01-09 07:20 · Score: 1

See if you can turn that part time position into a full time position. Everyone I've ever met has had a crappy first job. You are lucky in that you at least like yours. Once you get some kind of work experience, you have a much easier time finding the second job that you really like. Even if the current job is a dead end, you can easily find hackathons, programming contests, and meetups to learn new skills. This is a habit you'll need to pick up anyway, so start doing it now while you're not important to be busy all the time. There are so many companies out there that make themselves look good on paper, but unless you start networking you won't know which ones are faking it and which ones are the real deal. Building your network not only saves you from this, but it will come in very handy later when you know what you really want to be doing.

Re:Figure out what you want to do by Grishnakh · 2017-01-09 08:02 · Score: 1

Yep, when you're single and celibate, that lifestyle is very inexpensive and attainable.

System admin for *two* small companies? by sonamchauhan · 2017-01-09 08:04 · Score: 1

Transfer or buy their hardware and setup your own cloud company.

Re:Just note you have degree by Raseri · 2017-01-09 08:25 · Score: 1

"Stagnate" in this context means "reached 30 years of age."

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Writhe your naked ass to the mindless groove.

Re: Bloody SJWs by Grishnakh · 2017-01-09 08:34 · Score: 1

You've probably never met one in RL because you've never talked to them directly about these issues.

I live near the DC area, and a huge number of 20- and 30-something women on the dating sites list "social justice" as a huge passion for them. Some of them go into more detail about some of their beliefs. But hanging out with singles in that age group in group events, I never hear this kind of stuff. Nor do I hear people voicing extreme opinions while I'm out and about in the metro area. Now perhaps the SJWs just don't like the group events I like (outdoor activities like hiking), but I think the real reason is simply that people tend to self-censor a lot when they're in "meatspace", and spout far more extreme stuff when online, where they have a cloak of anonymity. I do it myself in different ways: I'll happily write a somewhat extreme post here on /. at times, mainly just to generate intellectual discussion as a "devil's advocate" stance (plus also my Swift-esque sarcastic posts), whereas I wouldn't bother to do such a thing in RL because people will get mad and either start an argument or practice shunning, because they don't like having their beliefs challenged.

Briefly put, in the "real world" people act "polite" and avoid controversial discussion to avoid conflict. This veneer disappears online. And frequently to horrific effect, as seen in the comments sections of general-population news sites or worse, on the alt-right news sites.

Re:DON'T do VHDL for FPGAs unless you love it by Grishnakh · 2017-01-09 08:40 · Score: 1

What are you talking about? FPGAs are more popular than ever these days. Now they've got tons of chips that combine FPGA fabrics with ARM core CPUs. You don't need to have ASICs as your final goal; these chips are cheap enough to use in more specialized applications as-is, giving you ASIC performance and reconfigurability. No, you're not going to see these chips in mass-market consumer products, but in higher-end smaller-volume stuff (like industrial equipment) you will. For instance, take a look inside telecom CO equipment; you'll probably see a bunch of FPGAs in there.

But Verilog is definitely the way to go, not VHDL.

Clueless by Jason1729 · 2017-01-09 08:41 · Score: 1

[My] curriculum is rather broad, ranging from systems programming on a Raspberry Pi to HTML, CSS, JavaScript, C, Java, JPA, Python, Go, Node.js, software design patterns, basic network stuff (mostly Cisco) and various database technologies... ... With these skills under my belt, what career path should I pursue?

That fact that you even think it's relevant to mention any of that after completing a CS degree tells us you went to a school where you degree is worth less than it's weight in toilet paper.

Those are not skills relevant to CS. It's like saying "I spent 4 years learning how to use a pen, now what genre of literature should I write?". Did you not learn about data structures, algorithms, how an OS works? "Basic network stuff" is more OSI model, distributing computing, etc. If they even mentioned the word Cisco in your class, you went to a shit school.

I'd suggest you see if your local McDonalds needs any burger flippers.

Re:Clueless by Jason1729 · 2017-01-09 08:44 · Score: 1

Also, while you're on your breaks in your burger flipping job, start reading Knuth's "The Art of Computer Programming". It might help you at least understand what CS actually is and where you went wrong.

Re: Bloody SJWs by Grishnakh · 2017-01-09 08:43 · Score: 1

Well it does seem that most powerful societies in history have fallen not due to outsiders, but instead to internal problems. Rome fell mainly due to internal corruption and incompetent leadership. But perhaps complacency in the later generations of Romans had something to do with this rise in corruption.

Leaf on the Wind by kcdoodle · 2017-01-09 08:52 · Score: 1

I got married to someone pursuing her PhD. I have lived in 6 different cities, following her from job-to-job. Each time we moved, I was unemployed for a short period of time. I have worked 10 different jobs in that time. I have worked in power generation, telecommunications, national defense, state gov, been a college instructor, banking, investments, digital libraries, voice automation, search engines, city gov and for the school district. Each job has had its pluses and minuses, I have learned to "take it as it comes".

The biggest take away I have from this is, nothing it what it seems up-front. You have to work in a job or a particular industry before you can find if it is for you, or even tolerable.

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- I live the greatest adventure anyone could possibly desire. - Tosk the Hunted

Re:Security, is it actually a growth industry? by arth1 · 2017-01-09 09:17 · Score: 1

- Do not share passwords with anyone, including administrators. Including replying to this e-mail, or forwarding it.

Don't worry. He'll replace Computer Science with Computer Faith.

Pay will be important by J.+T.+MacLeod · 2017-01-09 09:48 · Score: 1

Being young with no responsibilities is a great time to do something fulfilling regardless of pay, but you WILL find pay to be important later. If you make good money now, you won't have to worry so much about it later. And fulfilling work and work that pays well are not things that are mutually exclusive.

Don't get complacent with pay, and make sure that you are well aware of what someone at your experience level can expect to make. As someone in IT--especially with software engineering skills--you should also be prepared to settle in the few places where you can have a career with those skills.

If you are sacrificing pay for fulfillment, make SURE it's worth it. Most jobs will try to base your pay on the pay you made at your last job. It's terrible, but it's hard to fight. Aiming high for your first job is one of the best things you can do to help your financial prosperity through the rest of your career.

When I started, I had work I enjoyed, but it didn't pay well and it didn't provide me with experiences I would cherish for a lifetime or anything like that. It took time to gain the experience to realize I had a sucker's position, and it took time to get out of the mindset with "I can be happy getting by with this". Realize that "getting by" is not enough. You don't have to expect a mansion or a Tesla out of life, but you *do* have to expect well more than subsistence. The numbers will look different when you have a family and an emergency and no savings because you've been getting "just enough".

If I'd known what I know now and pursued salary, I could have still been in environments that challenged me... but I would own a house outright and have a hundred thousand (or few) in the bank, not to mention command a higher salary today. I'm not ashamed or regretful of the choices I made, but I had no one to tell me better. I advise you to not sell yourself short.

Re:Just note you have degree by ranton · 2017-01-09 10:00 · Score: 1

"Stagnate" in this context means "reached 30 years of age."

Another comment to ignore, as your average skilled IT worker sees his largest salary increases during his 30's. That is when you go from making around $75-80k per year to $125-150k(even more if you live in a major city or Silicon Valley). Eventually the yearly 10-20% raises stop as you are promoted and/or moving to new opportunities, but your thirties are generally when you start to really see the upper middle class lifestyle nearly all quality IT workers enjoy.

Arguably things get harder in your 50's. But as long as you have built an impressive portfolio of previous work and have built significant business acumen, those years will be your highest earning years of your life.

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-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

Re:Figure out what you want to do by cayenne8 · 2017-01-09 10:50 · Score: 1

Yep, when you're single and celibate, that lifestyle is very inexpensive and attainable.

Well, single and I have no kids that I know of....but certainly not celibate.

And yes, part of my lifestyle involves women...so that does cost a bit of money when you are bedding those that don't have their own income or jobs that pay as well as mine. It's best to date the ones that *do*, but that's limiting the pool you have to choose from....

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........

Re:Helpdesk by __aaclcg7560 · 2017-01-09 13:29 · Score: 1

You shouldn't expect CS graduates to have any IT skills because CS training is distinct to IT training - you can have one without the other.

You have to be in IT in order to turn on a PC?

Consider a Law Degree by LifesABeach · 2017-01-09 15:08 · Score: 1

With so much lieing of H1B Visas, its got to be a gold mine at world class levels.

So....? by BitztreamNotARealNam · 2017-01-09 16:11 · Score: 1

How's life in the hypocrite lane?

Re: Bloody SJWs by Opportunist · 2017-01-09 22:25 · Score: 1

Maybe the main reason is that the insanity didn't make it across the pond in full force yet. People here are quite bullshit resistant.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.

Any job. by kcdoodle · 2017-01-10 02:55 · Score: 1

If you are geographically limited, like I have been many times, do not bother with head-hunters or job sites.

I have found the best way to find a job in a particular city is to go to Wikipedia and find the page of something like "Top 500 employers in Des Moines".

Then read through all of the employers, go to each of their web sites, find the "careers", "jobs" or "employment" links on those web sites.

Apply DIRECTLY to the employer for the job that is the best fit for you. This method has always been better than head hunters for me.

Also remember, most job descriptions were written by HR and are probably not accurate. Many are a company's "wish list". Do not worry if you do not meet all the criteria. I remember a company's job posting back in 2000 that was seeking a person with 4 years experience in Windows 2000. At that time, the only people that could meet the criteria were Microsoft employees.

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- I live the greatest adventure anyone could possibly desire. - Tosk the Hunted

Two Fundamental Directions by Corporate+T00l · 2017-01-10 10:42 · Score: 1

I'm going to preface this bit of advice under the presumption that when you state that you're a CS major, that you are differentiated from the typical IT major in that you understand the following:

* Not only what a Universal Turing Machine is, but also why it's not just an information processing machine but every information processing machine
* Not only that the proof of the Halting problem means that you cannot write a program that can fully debug other programs, but reason about what kinds of bugs can be detected by programs and what value such programs may provide

If this is the case, I would propose that you have 2 fundamental directions to choose from: whether you want your career to be based on technical contribution or business contribution. Both will involve apply your technical abilities, but you'll get visibility into different areas. This also isn't to say that your decision will be set in stone forever, but there will be discrete points in your career for you to choose to make switches or fine tune, and you'll progress faster if you can make a definitive decision on where to start so that you can start building.

Down the technical path, you want to look for a software developer position at a company whose core business is software and will establish your resume as a "real" programmer (as opposed to a copy-paste imposter). Get yourself in at Google and you can write your own ticket for the next decade. A friend of mine started at google, is now working as software developer at a pretty sweet startup that just went IPO, but, more importantly, is also one of the privileged people who has a direct line to the CEO of the company and is one of the key influential technical advisors to the company, even though they code as the primary part of their job. Challenge yourself to aim high, don't be afraid of being rejected at an interview. I have another friend who was initially rejected at Google, but was persistent, the recruiter got them an interview with a different org, and was hired.

Down the business path, look at consulting positions. Genuine consulting positions where you are flown out to clients to do development work, not where you are doing outsourced or in-sourced development at a fixed location. The travel is key, the cost of your travel is the signal that you are important; don't be fooled by claims of "work-life balance". If travel is a problem for you, go down the technical path. This will give you broad visibility into how technology is mapped to business problems, and open the door to a whole hidden universe of computing. The programming challenges will not be as mathematically interesting as in the technical path, but you'll be exposed to a lot of interesting and complex business problems. As the genuine CS guy, you'll be of unusual value to your firm. You'll be able to measure this concretely in that while you might initially need to travel to the same place over and over again for multi-month periods of time, you'll start traveling to more different places more frequently as an indication that your skills are valuable and rare, too rare to be locked up in a single project for a long period of time. This is accelerate your learning on the business side since you'll be able to ask questions to more different people and experience more different industries.

I might go a bit against the grain here, in saying that at this stage in your career, the money is not the biggest issue. You need to look at your first job in terms of the opportunities it opens for you for future jobs, and not so much in the immediate income. What's most important is getting yourself on a career path that has the steepest possible growth curve, rather than the highest starting point.

Just my 2 cents...

Learn new skills by baerd · 2017-01-11 09:00 · Score: 1

Don't worry about the various languages and technologies you learned in school, they will be obsolete in 10 years. Learn how to design software, write requirements, manage people and projects, communicate and work with people. Those skills will be much more important than knowing any particular language or technology because they will always be useful and are much harder to learn (I think). There will always be younger, cheaper, smarter code monkeys coming along, you want to be able to manage them not compete with them the rest of your life. - a BA who used to like to code

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I wish I had a lawn.

Re:Figure out what you want to do by Wycliffe · 2017-01-18 03:11 · Score: 1

Not once the pay is enough to comfortably support one's lifestyle.

But, does one ever really attain that level of pay?

If you work in IT and live in a reasonably priced area then it's pretty easy to attain that level of pay. I make about 90k a year which is not especially high for IT work but it's more than double what the average middle class person in my area makes which allows me to live like a king. I have more than enough money to support myself and my 3 kids, max out my retirement every year and still have plenty left over at the end of the month. My kids and I have all our needs and most of our wants covered and money isn't really an issue and hasn't been for a while. We go on vacation for several weeks a year and buy the things we want without really worrying about the price. As I now have a considerable sum in my retirement, I am starting to look into what it would take to retire. If you can't live comfortably on 90k/year (which is almost double the median household income in the USA) then you are doing something wrong. I could easily live comfortably on a lot less than I'm making and I am actually in the process of selling my house to move into something smaller because I've decided that it's too big for our needs and that will free up even more money to put into savings. So yes, it is possible and an interesting fact is that studies have shown that 70k is the sweet spot in the USA and any more money than that doesn't really make a person any happier.

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