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Student Hacker Faces 10 Years in Prison For Spyware That Hit 16,000 Computers (vice.com)

An anonymous reader quotes Motherboard: A 21-year-old from Virginia plead guilty on Friday to writing and selling custom spyware designed to monitor a victim's keystrokes. Zachary Shames, from Great Falls, Virginia, wrote a keylogger, malware designed to record every keystroke on a computer, and sold it to more than 3,000 people who infected more than 16,000 victims with it, according to a press release from the U.S. Department of Justice.

Shames, who appears to be a student at James Madison University, developed the first version of the spyware while he was still a high school student in 2013, "and continued to modify and market the illegal product from his college dorm room," according to the feds... While the feds only vaguely referred to it as "some malicious keylogger software," it appears the spyware was actually called "Limitless Keylogger Pro," according to evidence found by a security researcher who asked to remain anonymous... According to what appears to be Shames Linkedin page, he was an intern for the defense contractor Northrop Grumman from May 2015 until August 2016.

The Department of Justice announced that he'll be sentenced on June 16, and faces a maximum of 10 years in prison.

100 of 181 comments (clear)

  1. Illegal product? by sinij · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Heavy-handed over-reaction. 10 years?! Unless this was self-spreading malware, the issue here is that kid a) talked to feds b) couldn't afford decent lawyer.

    1. Re:Illegal product? by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Heavy-handed over-reaction. 10 years?!

      It has great propaganda value.

      The FBI/DEA/DHS/etc would love to hire him, but he wasn't smart enough to evade capture

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    2. Re:Illegal product? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Congratulations, the marketing speak of the headline worked 100% on you, you must be proud of the fact that you fall into the headline writers perfect audience demographic of suggestibility.

      He won't get anything like 10 years, that's the maximum possible. The headline is designed to whip you into an outraged state, nothing more.

    3. Re: Illegal product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It must suck to not have the capacity to understand that it is not in any way illegal to sell software that can be used for auditing a system. What is illegal is to use it on a system that is not your own. Afterball, commercial keyloggers have existed and been sold for decades.

    4. Re:Illegal product? by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

      c) Committed felonies while employed by a defense contractor.
      I'll bet he signed something to get that job which stated he was not a crook...
      And God help him if that software is found on anything that related to his work or any other government system, because that takes it to a whole new level.

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    5. Re:Illegal product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's nothing. I've heard people sell guns too.

    6. Re: Illegal product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Same AC as the GP. Please educate yourself on what the keylogger actually does: link to research paper.

      Among other things, Limitless was designed to steal saved passwords in a number of applications, deny browser access to certain websites, and force logins to Steam. The behavior seems like malware to me.

    7. Re:Illegal product? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Heavy-handed over-reaction. 10 years?!

      If I was King, he'd be getting burnt at the stake. Keep in mind that there are a wide variety of views on the appropriate punishment, and even on the type of crime committed. If he was part of an organized crime operation and distributed burglary tools to 3000 accomplices who burgled 16000 people, I would want to see a life sentence just to keep him off the street. That's a huge amount of crime to be responsible for! Anything less than a life sentence is a slap on the wrist IMO.

      This wasn't some sort of nanny-State victimless "crime." 16000 people had their property invaded for nefarious purposes!

      Also, the meme about not having a good lawyer is silly. In the US for these types of cases a court-appointed lawyer will be a normal private lawyer, not some sort of low cost discount lawyer. You get the same legal representation as everybody else. If you're rich you get a superstar, and if you're poor you get a regular lawyer. Cheap lawyers are not even in the courtroom arguing cases, there are lots of different roles to play and you have to be a very competent lawyer to make a career in criminal defense.

    8. Re:Illegal product? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2

      > " 16000 people had their property invaded for nefarious purposes!

      Did he do it or did he make the tool?

      Or are we going to start going after Smith & Wesson now too?

    9. Re: Illegal product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So what, it's just software for a computer. Nothing that should be taken seriously, similar to the Internet - just for playing with.

    10. Re: Illegal product? by Dahamma · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If he had been consistent to market it as an auditing system, he might have been ok. But instead he marketed is on sites like "Hack Forums" specifically for the purpose of... hacking. And that was illegal. Intent matters (and in fact was probably what the case hinged on).
       

    11. Re:Illegal product? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      c) Committed felonies while employed by a defense contractor.
      I'll bet he signed something to get that job which stated he was not a crook...

      Legally he wasn't a "crook", since he hadn't been convicted of anything at that time.

    12. Re:Illegal product? by Dahamma · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is, it's not illegal to manufacture or sell guns that are used in a crime. It's illegal to sell malware that is used to commit a crime.

      Maybe we should go after Smith & Wesson. But not until it's made illegal. I think you are conflating legality with morality here.

    13. Re:Illegal product? by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Legally he wasn't a "crook", since he hadn't been convicted of anything at that time.

      It would seem that he was a crook who just hadn't been caught or convicted yet.

      Under your view, if you murder a person but but aren't convicted of doing it, you're somehow not a murderer?

      And for the record, I don't even buy the "legally" qualifier. You are what you are, whether a court confirms it or not.

      If I murder someone but I'm not convicted of it, I'm still a murderer. A legal ruling (or lack of one) in the eyes of the law doesn't change the reality of what I did.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    14. Re:Illegal product? by cdrudge · · Score: 1

      Popehat has addressed this issue several times about how the reported maximum penalty for such a case means little.

    15. Re:Illegal product? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Your whole post is irrelevant to the point...

      Have you ever applied for a job? They ask "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" not "will you ever be convicted of a felony?"

    16. Re:Illegal product? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Who wants to risk 10 years in prison?

      Evidently this kid did.

    17. Re:Illegal product? by Motherfucking+Shit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Perhaps he shouldn't have been engaged in criminal activity and his life would be just fine.

      Contrariwise, perhaps selling software shouldn't be criminal activity.

      --
      "BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
    18. Re:Illegal product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Selling guns to criminals and terrorists should also be legal since you aren't actually pulling the trigger.

      Oh, wait. It is legal.

      Selling guns to law abiding citizens who use them to protect themselves and others is as well and happens far more often than sales to future criminals/terrorists.

      So is selling terrorists/criminals a truck they use to mow down a crowd of people. It too is used far more often for legitimate purposes.

      You, on the other hand, probably shouldn't be trusted with a spork without supervision.

    19. Re: Illegal product? by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A kid makes a clone of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... and faces prison time for it? Since one is still available, and the other is criminal, yet they are quite similar, seems his crime was not being rich enough to buy his rights.

      Someone should try to bring justice back to the justice system.

    20. Re:Illegal product? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Under your view, if you murder a person but but aren't convicted of doing it, you're somehow not a murderer?

      Have we abandoned the idea of "presumed innocent"?

    21. Re:Illegal product? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So, because the law is broken, it's ok that the law is broken?

    22. Re:Illegal product? by g01d4 · · Score: 1

      the marketing speak of the headline

      This is completely inexcusable on part of the Slashdot editors. I'd like to hear how they justify something like this for their allegedly intended audience.

    23. Re: Illegal product? by BlueStrat · · Score: 3, Funny

      Someone should try to bring justice back to the justice system.

      Sorry, I think that's been made illegal. How's a third-rate alcoholic prosecutor to make a name for himself that way?

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    24. Re:Illegal product? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Isn't the First Amendment sufficient? See PGP, for example.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    25. Re:Illegal product? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      That would make a great movie. Fucking Hollywood, they'd rather do a 19th remake of The Great Gatsby.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    26. Re:Illegal product? by mrbester · · Score: 1

      May as well murder someone. You get less jail time.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    27. Re:Illegal product? by sdinfoserv · · Score: 1

      So a seller, who is also the manufacturer of any product is devoid of any responsibility, given the product is from conception specifically for nefarious and illegal activity just because the product happens to be "software"?
      fail.

    28. Re:Illegal product? by sdinfoserv · · Score: 1

      Selling guns to criminals is a felony.
      So is selling guns to individuals with mental heath problems (been in the whowho house) and a myriad of other reasons
      Guns are not specifically designed for illegal activity, as this software was.

    29. Re:Illegal product? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      No, I never said or even implied it was ok, if anything I implied that the law should be changed. But until it is, *laws* are what define criminal vs immoral.

    30. Re:Illegal product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It could also be used by an employer to monitor employee actions. Most employers use this same exact technology branded as "data loss prevention software" to record all employee actions. It's designed to hide in the OS so an employee can't disable it, it uploads all of it's details to the servers for analysis, and it monitors everything an employe does, sometimes including keystrokes.

      Like anything, in the wrong hands it can be used for nefarious purposes.. cars can be used to run people down, fertilizer and diesel fuel can be used to make a bomb, kitchen knives to stab people, hand saw to dismember a person, box cutter to hijack a plane, guns to kill people, have you noticed the pattern yet or do I need to keep going?

      Holding the maker of any of these items responsible for what an end-user does with the item is absurd, so why does that same logic not apply to individuals who build software?

    31. Re: Illegal product? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If you hover over the link, it tells you what it is. You should learn how to use a mouse.

    32. Re:Illegal product? by admin7087 · · Score: 2

      The issue is that the kid sold the software to the wrong people. If he had sold it to the FBI instead, he'd be a 100,000$ richer now.

    33. Re:Illegal product? by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Smith & Wesson does not advertise their product as a tool to use for robbery. If they started putting posters up in rough neighborhoods telling people where to buy it without a background check, and then one of those weapons purchased that way was used in a murder, then they would be responsible.

      That is the difference. Smith & Wesson makes a product and only advertises legal uses of their product, and there are many legal uses. So no problem!

      This guy made a tool and advertised it as being useful in committing crimes. That is part of that he was accused of in the first place. If he had advertised it as a debugging tool for programmers, and advertised it in normal places, then no problem! Keyloggers are legal. But malware intended to be installed without permission is not. And if only advertised it in normal places, he might not get any sales, because programmers wouldn't pay for that they would just download and compile one, or use the one that came with one of their pen testing tools.

      If you make security tools available to ignorant criminals who couldn't do it on their own, that will turn out to be provable and you will be punished.

      Just like, if you opened a martial arts dojo and advertised it as a way to be better at assaulting people, and one of your students then assaulted somebody, you'd have problems! Whereas if you keep your mouth shut and don't try to capitalize on the illegal uses of fighting arts, then no problem! Then if your student assaults somebody it is only bad PR.

      It isn't enough that there is some theoretical legal use for something. You have to also NOT be claiming that it is really for an illegal use. ;)

    34. Re:Illegal product? by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

      Go back to pol you contrarian prick.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    35. Re:Illegal product? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      And all those laws are unconstitutional. The 2nd amendment is pretty simple, as long as you're a person, you're right to have a gun is not to be infringed. Unluckily when the government does illegal stuff, it's hard to do anything about it besides ignore them if possible.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    36. Re:Illegal product? by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Have you ever applied for a job? They ask "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" not "will you ever be convicted of a felony?"

      Yes, and for some jobs they ask things like, "Have you ever committed a crime for which you haven't been caught?"

      The point is to find out if you engage in criminal activity, not just if you've been convicted.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    37. Re:Illegal product? by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Have we abandoned the idea of "presumed innocent"?

      I'm not talking whether or not you've been convicted, I'm talking about the reality of one's actions.

      If you murder someone then you are, in fact, a murderer whether or not you're taken to court and found guilty.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    38. Re: Illegal product? by gnick · · Score: 1
      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    39. Re:Illegal product? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Yes, and for some jobs they ask things like, "Have you ever committed a crime for which you haven't been caught?"

      And because you say so makes it true? No major company (read: one who had any lawyers review the application forms) would ask that on a written application (at least today) because it's not even legally enforceable. Pretty much everyone has broken the law at some point and not been caught - most people have broken the law at least once and never known it. In fact, in this very case it's entirely possible that the defendant didn't think he was breaking the law - many /. users here are arguing (probably incorrectly) that he in fact did not.

      They may ask "have you ever been charged with a crime", but even that doesn't mean much since that has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

    40. Re: Illegal product? by Corbets · · Score: 1

      The answer is simple: the editors aren't as smart as the nerds that previously frequented this site.

      I've never met them, but my guess would be thst the current owners just found people who "like computers" and hired them, rather than searching for the more intellectual types who sometimes were involved in the past (not always, though: remember Jon Katz?).

    41. Re:Illegal product? by arth1 · · Score: 2

      The 2nd amendment is pretty simple, as long as you're a person, you're right to have a gun is not to be infringed.

      Your right to have a gun in order to form a well regulated militia shall not be infringed. Show me what well regulated militia you are joining, and I'll sell you the gun.

    42. Re:Illegal product? by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      No major company (read: one who had any lawyers review the application forms) would ask that on a written application (at least today) because it's not even legally enforceable.

      Really? Apply to the FBI, CIA, NSA, or other three-letter security agencies and you'll be asked this question. Apply to the DOE Security Forces and they'll ask this.

      You've also never had a Secret or Top-Secret clearance, because they usually ask you this question for those as well. At least they did when I was applying for mine. Granted it's been a while but I'd be surprised if that question (or one with the same intent) isn't still asked.

      In fact, in this very case it's entirely possible that the defendant didn't think he was breaking the law - many /. users here are arguing (probably incorrectly) that he in fact did not.

      Sure, but that's not the point of the question; the point is to ask if you have knowingly broken the law, and most people know whether they have or not. That's what the question is designed to get at.

      For example, you robbed a liquor store when you were 20 but you were never caught. Fifteen years later you're applying for a TSC or above, and they ask you the question, usually while hooked to a polygraph. You know damn well you broke the law, so this isn't a test of legal theory. This is designed to give them something else to prosecute you on if ever comes to light later.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    43. Re:Illegal product? by nomadic · · Score: 1

      There's nothing unlawful about asking the question, and if you lie on it and they find out, they can absolutely use that against you in a breach of contract action.

    44. Re:Illegal product? by SirSlud · · Score: 1

      He made and sold a tool to commit crimes. Willingly and knowingly. I love how people so desperately want to ignore intent.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    45. Re:Illegal product? by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

      16000 people had their property invaded for nefarious purposes!

      I know for a fact that it's mostly just people who want to snoop on their bf/gf. It's not nefarious.

    46. Re:Illegal product? by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Show me that I won't ever be called up to be part of a well regulated militia and that prior familiarity, knowledge and experience won't be key.

      You're on slashdot. Your ability to walk can't possibly exceed half a mile. You'd be useless to a well regulated militia.

    47. Re:Illegal product? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Unlikely, because, once again, IT'S NOT A CRIME IN THE EYES OF THE LAW UNTIL YOU ARE CONVICTED.

      And if you are convicted of a felony AFTER you start working for a company, they will have a right to fire you, anyway.

    48. Re:Illegal product? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Apply to the FBI, CIA, NSA

      We are not talking about government agencies with security clearance. Did you where I said COMPANY?

      Fifteen years later you're applying for a TSC or above, and they ask you the question, usually while hooked to a polygraph.

      See above, plus, did you see where I said WRITTEN APPLICATION?

      Sure, but that's not the point of the question; the point is to ask if you have knowingly broken the law, and most people know whether they have or not. That's what the question is designed to get at.

      And hence, the WHOLE ORIGINAL POINT - you called him a crook who hadn't been caught, but you have no idea whether HE thought what he did was illegal, and neither does anyone else. Since what he thinks is entirely up to him, it would be totally unenforceable in a job application in his case.

    49. Re:Illegal product? by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Did you where I said COMPANY?
      did you see where I said WRITTEN APPLICATION?

      Your CAPITAL LETTERS are very IMPRESSIVE.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    50. Re:Illegal product? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Well, you missed those key words from my previous post, so I had to try something more drastic if I was going to repeat them, and unfortunately the blink tag is no longer supported...

      Plus, it seemed like you expected me to be impressed with the specific caps you used in your comment, so I figured you'd find them impressive! ;)

    51. Re: Illegal product? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Keyloggers are legal software. Often it is marketed for keeping track of what your kids are up to so you don't have to stand over them when they use computers. Saying that a keylogger by default is illegal is short sighted at the least, and incredibly far reaching of the FBI. There is nothing inherently illegal about the ability to track keystrokes, and many companies use keyloggers to monitor their employees, which has been deemed entirely legal. It is the use it is put to which can be legal or illegal. Monitoring your kids or employees (with informed consent) is perfectly legal, so the software is legal.

      This case should be dropped with prejudice, and likely only got this far because of the anti-intellectualism of general society and a crappy lawyer.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    52. Re: Illegal product? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      What case? He pled guilty, which means that he couldn't afford a lawyer and was afraid of getting the maximum sentence if he fought it.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    53. Re: Illegal product? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      What is malware? Define it in a way that no legal software is included.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    54. Re:Illegal product? by reboot246 · · Score: 1

      You are misquoting the Second Amendment, and you have no idea what it actually means.

      Hint: The militia is NOT the National Guard, and well-regulated means well-trained.

  2. Never write a keylogger. by HornWumpus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Write an input debugger with logging instead.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    1. Re:Never write a keylogger. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Or just upgrade to Windows 10.

    2. Re:Never write a keylogger. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... It's been around for years. Why write your own, when you could have just extended someone else's work and claim innocence?

    3. Re:Never write a keylogger. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You know that isn't a keylogger?

      I'm sure you could use it as such, but it's footprint is relatively huge. Also it's already in all the virus definitions.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:Never write a keylogger. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It isn't a keylogger? I only ever used it as such, and it made a great one, configured to send every keystroke to a central server in real time, or saving a local log with every keystroke. Used it to catch a person who clocked in for overtime, then went on Yahoo Chat and did things that would have gotten him fired without the outright theft of company time.

    5. Re:Never write a keylogger. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Remote desktop, it's a keylogger like a car is a portable air conditioner.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  3. Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Is also selling a keylogger in Windows 10 and nothing happens to them?

  4. Illegal? by Dan+East · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm curious what aspect of this was illegal. The keylogging itself isn't illegal. If someone buys and installs keylogger software on devices they own, that's not illegal. If someone installs software of that kind on someone else's device, without the owner's permission, then the person who did the installation broke the law. Not the author of the software.

    Both articles are vague in that regard, but one states,

    intentionally cause damage without authorization

    ,
    Which may mean the software had the capability to erase files or do something harmful besides capturing data.

    Unless the software actively multiplied and installed itself without permission somehow, it would seem to me that the customers are (in some specific cases) the guilty parties.

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:Illegal? by CaptainDork · · Score: 2

      And that's why you aren't a lawyer.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    2. Re:Illegal? by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      So are you saying cell phones manufacturers are guilty of manufacturing spy devices, because a cell phone can be hidden in a room and used to capture audio and video without the express permission of other people in that room? Or is the person who did the recording guilty?

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    3. Re:Illegal? by Lothsahn · · Score: 1

      Does that make Prey https://www.preyproject.com/ illegal? It has the ability to take pictures with the camera, upload files, take screenshots, and geolocate. Wireshark, similarly, can be used for significant malicious intent. As can lock picks.

      Mere possession of tools should not constitute illegality. Intent to use such tools, at a minimum, should be required. Most countries agree with regards to lock picking laws--computer programs should be no different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Liability should be placed on those who installed his software without permission on a computer they didn't own. The author should not be liable, unless the author himself installed the software without permission on a computer he did not own (or wrote an algorithm that performed such actions).

      --
      -=Lothsahn=-
    4. Re:Illegal? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Lock picks aren't illegal either, but carrying burglary tools often is.

      The Court doesn't care about, "Can the defendant show that the tool/weapon/whatever has a legit other use than he is accused of?" That would be silly. The Court instead tries to figure out what was actually going on in a particular instance. So nobody cares if it would be legal in another situation. In this situation we have victims whose devices were invaded in a way that is a crime. The government accused the defendant of having made that tool specifically for the purpose of committing that crime. Nobody cares if he could have made a similar tool that wasn't for crime; he isn't accused of that, and in that situation there wouldn't even be a crime being investigated.

      If the person installing the software for an illegal purpose is using it for what it was intended, if it was marketed to them to commit the crime, then it is an illegal tool and the author shares in all the responsibility for the crime. Sure, he could have made a debugging tool that was presented as a programming or networking tool and not a criminal tool, but then how would his criminal customers know that they could use it for their crime? They wouldn't. He would get less sales, because these sorts of criminals tend to be pretty low-information.

      He was an idiot to become a defense contractor, that puts your whole life on secret audit! If you've got an existing criminal enterprise, don't go there. You're not the sort of person who we [citizens] want doing that sort of work anyways.

    5. Re:Illegal? by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think what's really interesting here is that the keylogger is described as an "illegal product" in a United States Attorney's Office press release. Those guys are lawyers, and they know the product itself is NOT illegal.

    6. Re:Illegal? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      This has already been stated by a bunch of people, but the difference is INTENT. This guy made a keylogger and sold it on hacking forums for the purpose of spying on people.

      Your analogy only makes sense if the cell phone manufacturers marketed them as spy devices, which obviously they don't. If they did, they would be criminally liable for selling hacking/spying devices as well.

    7. Re:Illegal? by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      I think what's really interesting here is that the keylogger is described as an "illegal product" in a United States Attorney's Office press release. Those guys are lawyers, and they know the product itself is NOT illegal.

      Well....not to put too fine a point on it, but lawyers have been known to lie and/or misstate the truth, especially when it furthers their case.

      Shocking, I know, but there ya have it.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    8. Re:Illegal? by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 1

      Oh, I'm well aware of that: the only time a lawyer isn't being disingenuous is when his lips aren't moving - even when he's talking about his fee, he's undoubtedly lying. I'm just pointing out the legal notion they're advancing of an "illegal product".

    9. Re:Illegal? by mrbester · · Score: 1

      You sell where the buyers are or you're not a very successful businessman unless you're lucky enough to break into a new demographic and corner the market.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    10. Re:Illegal? by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      You sell where the buyers are or you're not a very successful businessman unless you're lucky enough to break into a new demographic and corner the market.

      Nice theory. Now call your local locksmiths and ask them to sell you lockpicks.

      There are restricted classes of buyers everywhere. From police (certain weapons and body armor) to geotechnical and demolitions experts (detonating caps and industrial explosives) to the everyday people known as patients (antibiotics and narcotic prescriptions).

      You're free to go to where the buyers are. And prosecutors are free to go to where are you are, and then put you somewhere that you don't want to be.

    11. Re:Illegal? by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      > He was an idiot to become a defense contractor, ... If you've got an existing criminal enterprise, don't go there.

      The only proof we've been given that there was a criminal enterprise is that the kid plead guilty.

      Plenty of innocent people plead. Sometimes even at their lawyer's recommendation.

      If you've evidence about this case not available in the DOJ press release, please share it with us.

    12. Re:Illegal? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      TL;DR

      Designing keyloggers and selling them to people is, apparently (we'll see) illegal.

      The legal system will sort it out.

      You and I will not.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    13. Re:Illegal? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      If you're saying he might be a liar, that isn't making me think it is more likely that he is also innocent.

    14. Re:Illegal? by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 2

      A liar for pleading guilty while innocent? You're really asking that.

      What would your choice be?

      - 2 years of probation, and a $6,000 lawyer bill that you can hope to pay off, or...

      - 2 years in jail after losing a one year court fight, with an attorney fee of ~$150,000 that you have no hope of paying off in under 30 years.

      Please, tell me whether you'd lie and plead guilty, or mortgage your future and go to jail anyway?

  5. Re:Seems like a good thing to me... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    They are going to use existing laws to apply due process, so your post is a waste.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  6. Re:He deserves punishment. by Motherfucking+Shit · · Score: 1

    What's on MY computer is not the business of any private person unless I have
    given them permission. This little shithead abetted invading the privacy of thousands of people.

    If you find out someone recorded video of you undressing in your bedroom, are you going to go after the camera manufacturer?

    --
    "BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
  7. And yet .... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    How is that all that different from web sites that monitor every mouse movement, key stroke, and web site that you visit?

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    1. Re:And yet .... by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How is that all that different from web sites that monitor every mouse movement, key stroke, and web site that you visit?

      Presumably because they can't monitor your mouse movements and key strokes when you're on another site that isn't theirs.

      Yahoo is welcome to monitor your mouse movements and key strokes when you're on Yahoo, but If Yahoo could monitor your mouse movements and key strokes when you were on CNN or Google, then there would be a problem, no?

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    2. Re:And yet .... by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      It's different because one is about spying on people(which is apparently illegal), and the other is about spying on consumers(which is legal).

    3. Re:And yet .... by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Spying on consumers isn't legal in a LOT of places. 95% of the world isn't Trumpland.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  8. I'll go ahead and be that guy by drew_kime · · Score: 1

    10 years for bad-evil-scary hacking, that is alleged to have affected 16,000 people, but nothing for the CEOs who burned down the economy and that were putting nearly 135,000 families per quarter out of their homes in 2002.

    --
    Nope, no sig
    1. Re:I'll go ahead and be that guy by drew_kime · · Score: 1

      firstly just because someone else got away with something doesn't mean you shouldn't punish someone who INTENTIONALLY broke the law for profit.

      Straw man. You could just as easily read what I said to mean the bankers should have been punished. Which is what I meant.

      secondly many of the people that lost their homes did so because of their own greed and stupidity

      And many lost them because banks fraudulently filed paperwork that the homeowner wasn't aware of.

      if you overleverage yourself without doing some basic research then you are at least partly responsible for the rod you created for your back.

      And if the research you do is to ask the bank questions, and what they tell you is false, whose responsibility is that?

      Many of those CEO's were definitely incompetent and should be sacked, being incompetent is not a criminal offense though.

      Fraud is a criminal offense.

      --
      Nope, no sig
  9. Re: Seems like a good thing to me... by Dahamma · · Score: 1

    Yep. You think if a gun manufacturer marketed their product as "perfect for bank robberies and drive-bys", they wouldn't be held liable? Context - and intent - are absolutely key...

  10. Ad: "she'll never see this camera in her bedroom" by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > If you find out someone recorded video of you undressing in your bedroom, are you going to go after the camera manufacturer?

    If the manufacturer of "smoke alarm hidden camera" advertises on voyeur porn sites, with ads that say "She'll never notice this camera hidden in her bedroom!", then yes that would be a legitimate suit.

  11. Re:He deserves punishment. by Dahamma · · Score: 1

    If you find out someone recorded video of you undressing in your bedroom, are you going to go after the camera manufacturer?

    If the camera manufacturer advertised the cameras as "perfect for secretly recording people undressing" I sure would. And I'd win a bunch of money from it.

  12. Damn... by EmeraldBot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Surely a stern talk and a 100 hours of community service would be a saner approach? He didn't do anything other than sell a tool, and while it's dubious where and who he sold it, he hasn't actually committed a crime yet, and it's not like a keylogger doesn't have legitimate purposes, nor is it illegal to possess one. Fucking over some kid for the rest of his life, in an environment where he's almost certain to repeat an offence, and turning him into a perpetual lifelong drain on the public, is not the answer - for either us or him. Yet another demonstration of my country's collective idocacy...

    --
    "Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
    1. Re:Damn... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      He didn't do anything other than sell a tool

      He made, sold and advertised the tool with the exclusive purpose of having it used for crime. Coincidentally he is charged with helping criminals "aiding and abetting computer intrusions". Knowingly selling tools/services for a crime is illegal, had he advertised it for a legal purpose and cut contact with every potential buyer expressing interest in illegal activities he may have gotten away with it.

  13. Re: Seems like a good thing to me... by Dahamma · · Score: 1

    Legally it sure is... why else would politicians and lawyers be so good at it?

  14. Re:Seems like a good thing to me... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    Damage done by guns can be tremendous, it's the manufacturers that really do deserve severe penalties.

  15. Re:Seems like a good thing to me... by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    Damage done by guns can be tremendous, it's the manufacturers that really do deserve severe penalties.

    Since in the US guns are used far more often by law abiding citizens to protect themselves and others than they are used by criminals, do we then give gun makers rewards? Fair is fair, right?

    Example: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...

    Example: http://www.khou.com/news/local...

    And those were just the examples that hit the news (most never do) in the last couple weeks that popped up at the top of Google results. There were many more.

    We need a national program to treat the mass-hoplophobia that seems to be spreading at an alarming rate. You appear to be exhibiting some of the symptoms. Perhaps you should get yourself checked.

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  16. Exact wording. by will_die · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From on or about August 2013 through on or about March 17,2015, in the Eastern District of Virginia and elsewhere, the defendant, ZACHARY LEE SHAMES, knowingly and intentionally aided and abetted the commission of computer intrusions, in violation of 18U.S.C. ÂÂ 1030(a)(5)(A) and 2. In particular, attimes listed above, in the Eastern District of Virginia andelsewhere, SHAMES designed, marketed and sold certain malicious keylogger software, knowing that the software was going tobeused to knowingly cause the transmission ofa program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally cause damage without authorization to 10 or more protected computers during any one year period.
    (All in violation of Title 18,United States Code, Section 1030(a)(5)(A) and 2)

    https://regmedia.co.uk/2017/01...
    So what he plead guilty to was developing the software and then knowingly selling it people who would be breaking the law. If he had marketed it toward the general public instead of marketing to crackers it would of not been a problem. For example I can sell and train people in lock picking all I want, however if someone comes up to me and says they want to break into a house with type X lock and want training and tools and I sell it to them then I am in trouble.

  17. Re:Seems like a good thing to me... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    The government's definition of a defensive use requires either party to discharge a firearm. Under that definition, there are very few defensive uses of firearms. If you don't like that definition, talk to the Republicans. They have held all 3 branches multiple times since those rules were written, and could change them if they wished.

  18. Re:He deserves punishment. by gravewax · · Score: 1

    What's on MY computer is not the business of any private person unless I have given them permission. This little shithead abetted invading the privacy of thousands of people.

    If you find out someone recorded video of you undressing in your bedroom, are you going to go after the camera manufacturer?

    If the camera manufacturer was creating, marketing and selling the camera for the express purpose of secretly recording people undressing in their bedroom then you bet your fucking arse I would be going after the manufacturer in addition to the person that did it.

  19. Re:Absurd by drhamad · · Score: 1

    You mean, for their motives? Yes. We do that every day. "Motives" are not protected free speech. They're a way of determining the reason something negative happened. If he had simply developed the software as a tool, that's one thing. To market it for the express purpose of illegal activity is another. If you own a gun store and sell people guns that may end up being used illegally, that's fine. If you own a gun store and sell a gun to someone that says they're going to use it for illegal acts, that's another.

    --
    -Daniel
  20. Better start jailing .. by luckypunq · · Score: 1

    .. better start jailing ... gun manufacturers for any murders commited with guns they sold and crowbar makers for any burglary commited ... Fucking idiotic ....

  21. the sentence is much too light... by squash_me_quickly · · Score: 1

    he's only being sentenced to 5.4 hours/victim.. which isn't fair to the victims.

    Personally, I'd like him to be sentenced to:
    - 2 years jail.
    - probation, where he must spend the remaining 70080hours (8years*365days*24hours) doing community service.
    He can use his skills teaching basic computer usage to senior citizens, preschoolers, etc.
    - no "personal access" to computers outside his community service work, until every last hour is worked off.

  22. Illegal? by Hans-HenrikStærfeld · · Score: 1

    I must be missing somthing. His software is illegal, but this is legal? https://pctattletale.com/