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Three States Propose DMCA-Countering 'Right To Repair' Laws (ifixit.org)

Automakers are using the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to shut down tools used by car mechanics -- but three states are trying to stop them. An anonymous reader quotes IFixIt.Org: in 2014, Ford sued Autel for making a tool that diagnoses car trouble and tells you what part fixes it. Autel decrypted a list of Ford car parts, which wound up in their diagnostic tool. Ford claimed that the parts list was protected under copyright (even though data isn't creative work) -- and cracking the encryption violated the DMCA. The case is still making its way through the courts. But this much is clear: Ford didn't like Autel's competing tool, and they don't mind wielding the DMCA to shut the company down...

Thankfully, voters are stepping up to protect American jobs. Just last week, at the behest of constituents, three states -- Nebraska, Minnesota, and New York -- introduced Right to Repair legislation (more states will follow). These 'Fair Repair' laws would require manufacturers to provide service information and sell repair parts to owners and independent repair shops.

Activist groups like the EFF and Repair.org want to "ensure that repair people aren't marked as criminals under the DMCA," according to the site, arguing that we're heading towards a future with many more gadgets to fix. "But we'll have to fix copyright law first."

225 comments

  1. Good by Xenographic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They sound like good laws. I just hope they pass.

    1. Re:Good by mwvdlee · · Score: 3, Funny

      As soon as the RIAA goons figure out this law might be used to repair defective CD's, it'll be gone.

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    2. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I passed gas.

    3. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      CDs aren't encrypted and nothing in the
      DMCA prevents you from ripping them and burning your own backups.

      If you'd have gone with MPAA and DVDs for your example, you'd have had a decent comment, but you didn't.

    4. Re: Good by PoopJuggler · · Score: 0

      So you're claiming the DMCA only applies to encrypted data?

    5. Re: Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The part of the DMCA that gets people in trouble for fixing their shit is the "circumvent" part. Slapping plastic polish on the bottom of a disc doesn't circumvent anything.

    6. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In MN, Republicans control both the house and senate and the bill was put forward by 2 Rs and 1 D.

      In NE, Republicans control the unicameral legislature and the bill was put forward by 7 Rs.

      In NY, Republicans control the senate, Democrats control the House and the bill was sponsored by 1 R with 1 R and 3 Ds signing on as co-sponsors.

      And actually if it gets shot down it will probably by the unions, they have the biggest interest in keeping small independent shops out of certain areas of the business. Oh wait but that means the Democrats might be the bad guys!!!

    7. Re:Good by mwvdlee · · Score: 2

      The "circumvent" clause is not specifically about encryption, but about any and all technical barriers.
      Many CD's have some sort of laughably stupid or downright evil (remember Sony?) copy protection, which would fall under this anti-circumvention.

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    8. Re:Good by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

      I agree!

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    9. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically Nebraska's unicameral legislature is nonpartisan. .

      The Nebraska Legislature (also called "the Unicameral")[1] is the supreme legislative body of the state of Nebraska. Its members are "senators." The legislature is officially unicameral and nonpartisan, making Nebraska unique among U.S. states; no other state has either a unicameral or a nonpartisan legislative body. With 49 members, it is also the smallest legislature of any U.S. state.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska_Legislature

    10. Re: Good by mmell · · Score: 1

      Just remember - Federal law Trumps State law (as users of medical and recreational marijuana are painfully aware). The current administration may see the profit in ignoring recreational substances, but Ford has already got some some political equity with the current administration. It seems quite possible that the Federal government under the current administration could choose to invalidate such laws at the behest of a major American manufacturer - after all, Carrier has already demonstrated how to coerce the current administration.

    11. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CDs that conform to the actual specification required to use the 'CD' logo aren't encrypted and nothing in the
      DMCA prevents you from ripping them and burning your own backups.

      If you'd have gone with non compliant CDs (think Sony Rookit), MPAA and DVDs for your example, you'd have had a decent comment, but you didn't.

      Fixed that for you.

  2. Sell parts/tools, but at what price? Aha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "would require manufacturers to provide service information and sell repair parts" - Would they mandate a reasonable profit margin?

  3. Also need to offer tools, software, and codes. by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Under the DMCA they can lock out jiffy lube by saying the change oil light reset code is under the DMCA and only dealers are to have it.

    But this needs to extended to firmware images, sd card images, etc for embedded hardware.

    Info on old pc based embedded hardware and older video games (arcade) that used custom cards so they can be run in VM's on newer pc hardware.

    Letting people run that hardware in a VM with having to rebuy the software / pay the rights holder again. Yes some like that did have happen in the past and there a free VM system to replace the old pc and custom pci card. That still needed some of the old hardware and they got sued.

    1. Re:Also need to offer tools, software, and codes. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Some clarification on the status of emulators and ROMs for things you own would be welcome.

      --
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      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Also need to offer tools, software, and codes. by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      Even more so when you have crappy paid emulators that are inferior to the free / open source emulators.

      Even old dos games can use some Clarification on the status of emulators!

    3. Re:Also need to offer tools, software, and codes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, as cars move to auto drive features and electric vehicles who's performance and life is tied directly to system management software, there is increasing liability related to car automation software. This will lead to lockdown or voided warranty and liability from the manufacturer if 3rd party tools are used.

      People don't mind voiding their phone warranty, but a car is another thing, and insurance and safety come in to play.

    4. Re:Also need to offer tools, software, and codes. by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      And who will buy a car that will need to go to the dealer for an oil change each 3000 miles?

    5. Re:Also need to offer tools, software, and codes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one, because if you're changing your oil every 3000 miles you're throwing money away. Even a chip tuned car only needs it about every 5000 miles due to the extra strain on the vehicle and most dealerships will only recommend a 10,000 - 12,000 regular oil change on a stock car.

      The real problem is that your car can only ever go to the dealership. Dealership mechanics tend to be over priced, suck at the job, and more often then not cause intentional damage that will force you to go back to the dealership in the next few weeks/month to get it "fixed".

      Anyone who wants to save money would want to avoid this at all costs.

    6. Re:Also need to offer tools, software, and codes. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Unless Trump passes a new law, the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 prevents manufacturers from voiding warranties for using 3rd-party tools, using 3rd-party parts, etc.

      Honestly, it seems like I read some dumb comment every week or two about carmakers or dealers "voiding" someone's warranty for some silly reason. It's "only" been 42 years now since that law was passed; you'd think people would know about it by now.

    7. Re:Also need to offer tools, software, and codes. by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      There was a nearly ten year period I serviced my car at a dealership, and while I slightly overpaid I did not see any of the other problems you describe.

      There may be particular dealerships in the state where you live that hires blind monkeys at minimum wage and charges the customer a premium. The big car companies are probably not too happy about that either, but the state legislature is in the pocket of the dealerships so the car companies have no choice if they want to sell any cars in your state.

    8. Re:Also need to offer tools, software, and codes. by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      And who will buy a car that will need to go to the dealer for an oil change each 3000 miles?

      No problem, the car will just drive itself to the dealership at night when it's due, then drive back home after the change is done!

  4. So, like, I can buy points and condensor again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good.

  5. No One Owns Anything by zenlessyank · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Anymore. You just rent it until it breaks so you can re-up on a newer rented item. Greed has no bounds.

    1. Re:No One Owns Anything by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 2

      I believe it's "Greed is eternal". That's the 10th rule if I'm not mistaken.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    2. Re:No One Owns Anything by Mitreya · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You just rent it until it breaks

      Renting would be ok if it was stated upfront and you paid rental prices.

    3. Re:No One Owns Anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the manufacturers still wonder why people don't want to "own" their products anymore, even as they are filing their notices of bankruptcy.

    4. Re:No One Owns Anything by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Greed has no bounds.

      Neither does personal image. What you want to repair that old shit iPhone 6? Why? It's scratched and everything. Are you a poor person who can't afford a real phone?

    5. Re:No One Owns Anything by Solandri · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And you got rental privileges. e.g. If it broke it was their responsibility to fix it, not the renter's. These companies are taking a page out of the MAFIAA who like to claim you're buying a license when you try to do anything with the CD or DVD you bought, but claim you bought a product and need to re-buy it if you accidentally break the disc and want a free replacement since you already paid for the license.

    6. Re: No One Owns Anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personal image definitely has bounds. Not that many of us are vain twits.

    7. Re:No One Owns Anything by The-Ixian · · Score: 3, Informative

      Looks like Universal Studios is one of the only ones (if not *the* only one) left to still do this:

      http://www.universalstudioshom...

      I seem to recall there were others like Disney, who would replace damaged optical media as well.

      --
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    8. Re:No One Owns Anything by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? We're heading into a time reminiscent of old Soviet times where used goods cost more than new goods because the new shit is actually WORSE than what you could buy in the good ol' days. We're there already with routers and WiFi equipment, and I dare say that phones will be next.

      Who the FUCK wants phones with the stability of tinfoil due to being of equal thickness?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re:No One Owns Anything by Fitch · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When I'm not wearing out keyboards I'm an avid "shade tree mechanic", and it just so happened I experienced a tangent of this type of stupidity yesterday working on a car I recently purchased for my daughter. As it turns out the tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS) in many GM vehicles of it's era were flashed with a configuration that would not allow the system to be reset + relearn the wheel sensors without an expensive scan tool (even these aftermarket ones are prohibitively expensive). I'm going to go to a dealer and beg them to fix the firmware so the product will function as the owner's manual states it should (there happens to be a service bulletin on this particular issue). In my case I simply do not allow anyone to work on my vehicles, so when I rotate the tires at every oil change I have no recourse to make the TPMS system functional and accurate once again except to take it to a tire shop or the dealer.

      Thankfully there seems to be a possible workaround - removing the TPMS fuse and letting it "forget" all it's sensors so it doesn't work at all. But imagine if this wasn't the case, and car owners were unable to get their vehicle to pass an emissions inspection because the TPMS sets a malfunction code.

      I'm generally not one to throw fuel on hyperbolic statements like "No One Owns Anything", but in this case I have to side with this sentiment. How far are we from the day when your car disallows you from driving over some ridiculously slow speed until you take it to the dealership for service? Those of us in states requiring emissions inspections are already beholden to the machines because in most counties of my state a vehicle with a MIL / Check Engine light on automatically fails regardless of whether the code is associated to an electronic ride control component, a burned out heated seat controller, or the catalytic converter efficiency monitoring.

      To further complicate things, many of today's vehicles are equipped with autonomous braking systems and other "convenience" features such as park assist, etc. Who's going to be able to fix these systems when they malfunction, and more importantly who will be responsible for the deaths that will be inevitably caused by such?

      For me, the solution is driving old junk and spending the extra time and money to maintain it until it is simply impossible to keep in a safe condition. I simply will not succumb to the perpetual car payment, rent-a-car culture that American society has all to readily embraced at it's own peril.

    10. Re:No One Owns Anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the fuck wants to throw down $600 on a new phone all the time? If you have that kind of money go give it to charity and take better care of your crap. Attitudes like yours is why everything is going to ****.

      Some of us prefer to live within our means and actually get somewhere.

    11. Re:No One Owns Anything by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Phones are already there. The best phone is the one I have, the Samsung Galaxy S5. It's waterproof, yet is easily disassembled (for a phone), has ubiquitous spare parts available on Ebay, has an easily-replaced battery, and an SDcard slot.

      All the newer phones are worse in some way because they don't have all these features.

    12. Re:No One Owns Anything by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      Stuff like this is one reason why I don't buy GM or American. I have a 2015 Mazda and its TPMS system is about as simple and easy as you can get: there are *no* wheel sensors at all (!), as it just uses the ABS system to look for wheels that are (over some distance) turning a bit more slowly that the others. Resetting it when it alarms is really simple: hopefully you'll check the tire pressures and fix them, but to reset it you just press the TPMS button and hold it for 3 seconds. No special tools required.

      No, this system isn't as accurate as the ones that show you actual tire pressures from sensors, but for those of us who actually check their pressures regularly it has major advantages: no expensive sensors to replace (or buy if you want a second set of wheels), and no special equipment needed if you change sensors.

    13. Re:No One Owns Anything by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding?

      Yes.

      But only slightly. Don't for a moment think that people buy the latest phones for features, especially those people who stand in line to do so.

      I mean I buy a phone for features which is why I'm 3 generations behind... I've also been scoffed at and often get asked why I don't get a new one.

    14. Re:No One Owns Anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      having been around and paying attention in the 1970's I can tell you that back then the average car owner only kept their car for 2-4 years. Now it is over 7. In the USA. So the 'rent-a-car' culture you speak of is actually better than it used to be. But also our cars are immeasurable better in many ways than they were in the 1970's.

      Though I am with you, I am not going to be buying anything new for the foreseeable future so that I can more easily work on it. The newest car I own is a 2011 (and I own in 1996) and I do not anticipate ever owning anything newer again.

  6. Protect American jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thankfully, voters are stepping up to protect American jobs

    What kind of horse shit is that? Autel is based in China.

    1. Re:Protect American jobs? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most people don't ship their vehicles to China for service. You moron.

    2. Re:Protect American jobs? by jimtheowl · · Score: 1

      It is still horse shit, and, the argument would have been better off without the political reference.

    3. Re:Protect American jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then the whole thing was a non-sequitur to begin with. If I have to go to the Ford dealership because the DMCA prevents my neighborhood mechanic from fixing Ford cars, the Ford dealership still employs Americans.

  7. Re:Sell parts/tools, but at what price? Aha. by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 3, Informative

    sell repair parts at the same price that the dealer pays?

  8. IDK, but... by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Thankfully, voters are stepping up to protect American jobs

    Can't help but feel like my anus is being forcibly greased up whenever "protect american jobs" is being waved around.

    "Right to X" in the title of a new law is also a red flag.

    I mean, I'm aware the DMCA is awful. They should just do something about that. Maybe say, we're going to repeal and replace it? Introduce the All-new Copyright Act, or ACA for short?

    1. Re:IDK, but... by rudy_wayne · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      I mean, I'm aware the DMCA is awful. They should just do something about that. Maybe say, we're going to repeal and replace it? Introduce the All-new Copyright Act, or ACA for short?

      Sorry. The DMCA is Republican creation. Republicans are only opposed to laws created by Democrats.

    2. Re:IDK, but... by oldgraybeard · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry to tell you President Bill Clinton Signed the DMCA into law and in 1998 I think. The congress was republican but President Clinton is a dem.

      So both parties are equally guilty ;) Just saying, since I am a bi-partisan and an independent, I dislike both political parties ;)

    3. Re:IDK, but... by NormalVisual · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I mean, I'm aware the DMCA is awful. They should just do something about that.

      It'd be nice if it were that easy, but the controversal parts of the DMCA are implementations of two treaties to which the U.S. is a signatory. The U.S. would have to revoke the treaty in order to remove the offending parts of the DMCA. To those that say it's the Republicans' fault that we have this law, please note that the DMCA was signed by a Democratic president and passed in the Senate unanimously - all 45 Democratic senators wanted this.

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    4. Re:IDK, but... by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure State governments don't have the authority to actually repeal a federal law.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    5. Re:IDK, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry. The DMCA is Republican creation. Republicans are only opposed to laws created by Democrats.

      Why is this modded flamebait? The members of the republican party admitted to deliberately voting against anything proposed by the Democrats during Obama's time

    6. Re:IDK, but... by silentcoder · · Score: 3, Interesting

      >To those that say it's the Republicans' fault that we have this law, please note that the DMCA was signed by a Democratic president and passed in the Senate unanimously - all 45 Democratic senators wanted this.

      Yeah, but those were the years when the DINOs ran the democrat party with their center-right "suck up to the liberals a little in the primaries then ignore them for 8 years" style of governance...

      Those years are well and truly over, Bernie Sanders and Trump both pretty much shattered that consensus.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    7. Re:IDK, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > an't help but feel like my anus is being forcibly greased up [...]

      Wow. Must be quite a tingle. Enjoing?

      Glad to do you a favor:

      protect american jobs
      protect american jobs
      protect american jobs
      protect american jobs
      protect american jobs
      protect american jobs
      protect american jobs

      Uhhh...

    8. Re:IDK, but... by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They banded together to fight proposals they disagreed with. Are you saying that the Dems aren't going to do the same now with Trump?

      The Republicans were in the minority in both House and Senate from 2006 (predating Obama) to 2010. The Dems could have (and did) pass anything they wanted. So stop the idiotic BS.

      Do you think the Dems are going to vote for Trump policies they disagree with? Do you actually believe the BS you wrote?

      --
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      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    9. Re:IDK, but... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, Trump is telling anyone who wants to listen that he's going to nix TPP, with a bit of luck the other contracts go out the window, too.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    10. Re:IDK, but... by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 2, Informative

      To be precise, they weren't opposed to any law that the Democrats liked at the time, since Clinton was President then. It was only after Obama's election that they adopted a policy of complete refusal of any cooperation short of total capitulation.* So, in all fairness, DMCA -was- a bipartisan law, in that the opposition from the left was not sufficient to persuade the president to veto it (there really wasn't any opposition to it from the right, to my knowledge, save perhaps complaints that it didn't go far enough).

      *And we could debate why that is, but it's somewhat getting away from the topic at hand.

    11. Re:IDK, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a typical excuse of the copyright maximalist. "But international treaties!"

      Legislatures worldwide use international treaties as an excuse for bad laws. This is undemocratic.

    12. Re:IDK, but... by Luthair · · Score: 1

      I don't even get how "american jobs" are related, are the Ford service stations secretly Mexican embassies?

    13. Re:IDK, but... by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Usually these treaties are created and pushed by the USA.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    14. Re:IDK, but... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      They banded together to fight proposals they disagreed with. Are you saying that the Dems aren't going to do the same now with Trump?

      From what I've seen from Democrats for the last couple decades, I'd say, no, they are not going to do the same at all. They'll just go along with everything the Republicans want to pass, and lamely claim that there was nothing they could do because they didn't hold a super-majority in Congress.

    15. Re:IDK, but... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      "Right to X" in the title of a new law is also a red flag.

      Why?

      Don't get me wrong, I think the name could be better. But that's because they should have named this bill "right to own property", because having the right to repair is one of the necessary aspects of that.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    16. Re:IDK, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, most people are also too stupid to remember that a Dem President and a Dem-controlled congress also signed Don't Ask, Don't Tell into law.

    17. Re:IDK, but... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      They banded together to fight proposals they disagreed with. Are you saying that the Dems aren't going to do the same now with Trump?

      Democrats are pussies. They don't have the balls to have a united front. They rolled over for George Bush, they'll do the same for Trump.
      Sure, they'll grumble and stammer a lot, but they're far too "reach across the aisle" to make a united front.

    18. Re:IDK, but... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Those years are well and truly over, Bernie Sanders and Trump both pretty much shattered that consensus.

      I'm not sure, it didn't seem like Sanders was the base of the Democratic Party, and he didn't run it for the last year.

    19. Re:IDK, but... by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      >I'm not sure, it didn't seem like Sanders was the base of the Democratic Party, and he didn't run it for the last year

      I saw what seemed to show the exact opposite. If Sanders had a flaw, it was his inability to connect with black voters - even though his policies are right inline with what they've supported ever since MLK.
      It's not Sanders, the person, that's interesting - but what he told us about the size of the liberal wing of the democratic party. They are probably the biggest single group in the country now - and, at the very least, too big to ignore. Where do you think 3 million marchers this weekend came from to do the largest protest in US history ?
      Sanders will never be president - I think he'll be too old to run in 2020 - but what he did achieve is to pave the way for somebody like Elizabeth Warren. In 72 hours since the inauguration Trump has declared war on truth itself, killed 40-thousand working families' hopes of ever owning a home, signed a death warrant for millions of women around the world, defunded the violence against women act (which is going to kill a lot of women in America) and congress has passed the REINS act - which will make it impossible for any US federal agency to regulate anything - it's the end of labour law, the end of clean air, the end of actually punishing banks that commit fraud like Merryl-Lynch just did (though I'm hoping the senate will refuse to pass it - they had previously done so, but this not ordinary times anymore).

      In just 72 hours - America has been set back over 40 years. Trump is well on track for his plan to set it back 300 years, at this rate he will achieve it by next week.

      If you think that is not going to unleash the biggest backlash in history you're in for a shock. Unless he actually goes full dictator and turns elections into complete shams - the next midterm is going to see the republicans get a trouncing that will make what happened to the democrats in 2010 look mild, and Trump has already ensure he will not have a second term if I'm any judge.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
  9. Copyright needs an overhaul by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This has happened before, and it will happen again.

    1. Re:Copyright needs an overhaul by rudy_wayne · · Score: 1

      Copyright has been "overhauled" several times. And each time it gets worse.

    2. Re:Copyright needs an overhaul by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Can you name one instance when it didn't get worse?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Copyright needs an overhaul by dryeo · · Score: 1

      1710 when the Statute of Anne (long name, An Act for the Encouragement of Learning, by Vesting the Copies of Printed Books in the Authors or Purchasers of such Copies, during the Times therein mentioned.) was passed. To quote wiki,

      Prior to the statute's enactment in 1710, copying restrictions were authorized by the Licensing of the Press Act 1662. These restrictions were enforced by the Stationers' Company, a guild of printers given the exclusive power to print—and the responsibility to censor—literary works. The censorship administered under the Licensing Act led to public protest; as the act had to be renewed at two-year intervals, authors and others sought to prevent its reauthorisation.[2]

      ...

      The statute is considered a "watershed event in Anglo-American copyright history ... transforming what had been the publishers' private law copyright into a public law grant".[5] Under the statute, copyright was for the first time vested in authors rather than publishers; it also included provisions for the public interest, such as a legal deposit scheme. The Statute was an influence on copyright law in several other nations, including the United States, and even in the 21st century is "frequently invoked by modern judges and academics as embodying the utilitarian underpinnings of copyright law".[6]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  10. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by interkin3tic · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Appears to be states using their rights to do something that makes sense, nothing at the federal level.

    So I can only assume the GOP is going to smack them down on it somehow.

  11. Re: American Jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That is a good comment, you know it's getting bad when when Americans have to depend on Chinese hackers to be able to repair their own cars because American auto makers have gotten so greedy that they are locking down via artificial electronic means out of the repair business.

  12. Going by your logic by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    If I can't diagnose and fix the car myself or an independent shop but only through expensive Stealership shops, it means the extra money I paid to the Stealership for labour and parts vs self repair/indie shop, the money will not be spent at other local businesses which hire local workers.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  13. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Well, don't forget, the DMCA was created by Republicans when they took control of congress in the 90s. So I doubt that a Republican president and congress today are going to be very sympathetic.

  14. Repair Costs by tquasar · · Score: 2

    The last time I took my Ford to a dealer they charged $150.00 per hour for labor with a 4 hour minimum. And outrageous parts pricing. A friendly parts man sold me items at 40% off list and there were 50 and 60% off columns in the list. There aren't many repairs that I can do but some independent shops will negotiate costs.

    1. Re:Repair Costs by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Informative

      The last time I took my Ford to a dealer they charged $150.00 per hour for labor with a 4 hour minimum.

      A 4h minimum is set by what's called the "blue book" which details exactly how much time the repair is supposed to take. Those hours are set by government. That means if they get the job done in 20minutes the book says the job is 30min, they have to charge for 30. On the flip side of that, this also protects you from overzealous pricing charges. That means if the job is listed at 4hr and it takes them 5hr to do it, they can only charge you for 4hr. Some places allow small incremental increases, but most don't. And in those cases there is a hard cap to the limit that can be charged. When you look around the "waiting area" you should also see a sign which states the minimum hourly rate. Depending on the state/province it will right now be between $80 and $140/hr(when I was an apprentice the hourly rate set by the province was around $35/hr). That again is set by the state or province, those are the minimum hourly rates that they have to charge by law. The higher hourly rate above the minimum requirement is called a "rate premium" which any shop can charge. Meaning a independent can charge $80/h or more if they can get away with it. Or a dealership can charge $80/h or $300/h if they can get away with it.

      Now onto the parts, since you were able to buy them through a "friendly parts man" that means you're buying a OEM-non dealership part. Under the old auto-pact treaty, OEM parts suppliers can make these parts and sell them to anyone for as long as there is demand. The automaker themselves must make these parts for your vehicle for a minimum of 10 years -- some will make them for longer if the vehicle sales were amazing. Now, there is no set prices on auto parts. Meaning a dealership don't have to price you out anything other then in their parts from their warehouses unless you request it. You can bring your own parts, and they have to install them though. You can request that they buy the parts from a OEM parts supplier like NAPPA, Pep boys, or whatever else.

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      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:Repair Costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A 4h minimum is set by what's called the "blue book" which details exactly how much time the repair is supposed to take. Those hours are set by government.

      The hours are not set by the government. That they have them is required by the government, but the government doesn't set them.

    3. Re:Repair Costs by tquasar · · Score: 1

      My employer had a large fleet of Ford vehicles and I placed the orders for the repair facility, so I got OEM parts.

    4. Re:Repair Costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A 4h minimum is set by what's called the "blue book" which details exactly how much time the repair is supposed to take.

      Weird system.
      Here in Europe, we have something called competition. If a Ford dealer does unusually expensive repairs, words go around. (Or car magazines print pricing comparisons.) Then people take their cars to the next town and a more reasonable Ford dealer gets the business. And if overcharging seems to be a Ford policy, then the independent garages gets more business.

    5. Re:Repair Costs by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Those crazy Europeans and their pinko commie ways. That's never gonna fly in Free America!

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      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Repair Costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Book time is entirely optional and the times are set by the manufacturer (sometimes unreasonably, as they don't take into account rusty vehicles). If you want a quoted job in a state where the quote has to be accurate, they'll use book time and guarantee it (and you won't get a discount for jobs done quickly).

      You can go to many mechanics and ask for hourly work and they'll be happy to work that way. You might find that the work isn't done as quickly because the people doing the work are humans and, surprise, surprise, when there's no extra money to be made by working yourself to death, they're gonna take their time with it (but you probably will get a better job done).

      In fact, garages that say they only charge book time are full of it because there's several jobs that aren't listed in any book. Think frame straightening, rust hole repairs, upholstery repairs, etc, etc. They'll do that work and bill you hourly. If they've done enough of it they'll provide a quote and stick to it, too, because they have a good idea how long it will take.

      The government's only involvement is with guaranteed quotes and if someone is dissatisfied with the work and takes the shop to court. At that point book time is going to be used as an independent assessment as to how long the work should take.

      You'll notice that garages charge more as you go to rustier states. Work gets harder as things are more rotten, but book time holds them to a standard. Since the work may take longer than book time on average, the hourly rate goes up to reflect that.

      As for the minimum 10 years for making parts, no, it's not that long and it's not for all parts. Emissions systems are warrantied by law for 7 years, so they'll make those parts for that long. After that, all bets are off. I know, for example, Jeep parts aren't made for 10 years, couldn't buy a brake disc cover (that holds the rear brake shoes in place) for the life of me. Zero in stock worldwide, months lead time. Ended up fabricating my own. They also discontinued making the gas tank skid (which is the part that kept those Jeeps from exploding, go figure).

      Heck, worst I've seen was after 5 years Toyota stopped making window parts for the Corolla.

    7. Re:Repair Costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And dont forget, we prefer to by Mercedes over Chevy, too. Because those need fewer repairs and last longer. Dealer garages are also much better.

  15. I have altered the deal by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 2
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    #DeleteFacebook
  16. Re:American Jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This isn't about China, dumbass. It's about everybody else who wants to fix their fucking car.

  17. Great Idea and I live in MN by oldgraybeard · · Score: 5, Interesting

    i have a 1999 Ford Expedition, great truck for the 2-3k I drive it a year. Had a cracked windshield replaced which leaked (they fixed it) but it got my Gem Module(General Electronics Module) and fuse box wet. Darn truck, kept draining the battery, most of the electric stuff did not work, no lights, flashers, turn signals, dash indicators, windows ;) lol, !. Got it to the dealer. They said my GEM Module was bad, and they would order one.

    It would be 700.00 dollars up front and they had no idea when it would arrive. In fact they had one customer that has been waiting 7 months.

    OK so I talk about getting one from the junk yard. But!!!! it needs to be programmed with the exact options my truck has and only Ford can do that and that is 500.00

    I went home and just charged the battery everytime I wanted to drive the truck. And over time things dried out. All is good now.

    I have been gathering every scrap of info so I can build a jig and write a program to dump the firmware from my electronic modules on my truck, since I am keeping it forever ;)

    1. Re:Great Idea and I live in MN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Just by a new damn truck.

      p.s. Based on your story, I strongly recommend buying "anything but Ford."

    2. Re:Great Idea and I live in MN by petter-miller_007 · · Score: 0

      i have a 1999 Ford Expedition, great truck for the 2-3k I drive it a year. Had a cracked windshield replaced which leaked (they fixed it) but it got my Gem Module(General Electronics Module) and fuse box wet. Darn truck, kept draining the battery, most of the electric stuff did not work, no lights, flashers, turn signals, dash indicators, windows ;) lol, !. Got it to the dealer. They said my GEM Module was bad, and they would order one. It would be 700.00 dollars up front and they had no idea when it would arrive. In fact they had one customer that has been waiting 7 months. OK so I talk about getting one from the junk yard. But!!!! it needs to be programmed with the exact options my truck has and only Ford can do that and that is 500.00 I went home and just charged the battery everytime I wanted to drive the truck. And over time things dried out. All is good now. I have been gathering every scrap of info so I can build a jig and write a program to dump the firmware from my electronic modules on my truck, since I am keeping it forever ;)

      Great Idea.... keep the truck. I searched the model it is dam hot ...pure monster!!

    3. Re:Great Idea and I live in MN by Versa · · Score: 2

      This might do what you want:
      http://forscan.org/
      FORScan is a software scanner for Ford, Mazda, Lincoln and Mercury vehicles, designed to work over ELM327 and J2534 Pass-Thru compatible adapters

    4. Re:Great Idea and I live in MN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK so I talk about getting one from the junk yard. But!!!! it needs to be programmed with the exact options my truck has and only Ford can do that and that is 500.00

      The problem exactly!
      You could get a junk yard box from a car with the same options though. Usually, a box from a car with more options works too.

      And over time things dried out.

      A quicker option is to take the lid off and dry it immediately with a hair dryer.

    5. Re:Great Idea and I live in MN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Fix Or Repair Daily" was literally true here.

    6. Re:Great Idea and I live in MN by rjune · · Score: 2

      Ford cars have always had weird electrical systems. We had a Ford station wagon where if you pressed the brake pedal and pushed the emergency flasher knob in about half-way, the rear window could be opened or closed (without the engine running or the key in the ACC position) I'm sure with the advanced electronics there are even more strange things to be found. I'm glad you were able to fix the problem without shelling out a boatload of money to Ford.

    7. Re:Great Idea and I live in MN by oldgraybeard · · Score: 1

      Thank You ;) I will check that out ;)

      OldGrayBeard

    8. Re:Great Idea and I live in MN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just buy one from a self-service auto-salvage yard for five bucks that is close enough to your truck. It will probably work just fine. It worked on my Cutlass...well except for parts of the digital dash giving out, but those were always finicky.

  18. Re:American Jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is a bit of anger! Relax Mr. Anonymous Coward!
    And if it's not about foreign v. American jobs, why does the summary say "Thankfully, voters are stepping up to protect American jobs"?

  19. Re:American Jobs? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2

    When was the last time you shipped your car to another country to have it serviced? You fucking idiot.

  20. Corporate Stupidity by GerryGilmore · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I used to work at Dialogic, which was then bought by Intel. In all my time there, new prospects/customers would invariably say: "This is really hard to configure (we had line resource cards, DSP resource cards, and various ways to map these resources together.) don't you guys have a card configuration utility?" Well, for Windows, yes. For Linux, no. "Too hard and no demand" says Engineering. So, taking the bull by the horns, I found the PCI ID codes for the various cards, wrote a utility to configure them, got approval from my manager to release it as open-source and all was well. Until...The head of Engineering at our division found out about it and lodged a formal internal complaint that I had "released Intel proprietary information" and was summoned to Parsippany to face legal. Fortunately, my manager's support and basic common sense prevailed, the Eng manager was sent packing with his tail between his legs and I flew home drunk as a skunk. The legal guy basically said: "when you expose a PCI ID to the OS, it's no longer proprietary - dumbass!". Point is that when information is documented and exposed in any way, it is not "proprietary" in the sense that it cannot be used, just not stolen and used inappropriately.

    1. Re:Corporate Stupidity by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Stolen is an interesting term to use there.

      If I tell you something in confidence then it is protected. If on the other hand tell you something publicly on Slashdot I can put as many disclaimers and wavers on that I want. Anyone else seeing it can't be said to have stolen it.

      Much the same is anything that is exposed to an OS.

  21. "Us" versus "them" by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I mean, I'm aware the DMCA is awful. They should just do something about that. Maybe say, we're going to repeal and replace it? Introduce the All-new Copyright Act, or ACA for short?

    Sorry. The DMCA is Republican creation. Republicans are only opposed to laws created by Democrats.

    The DMCA was a bipartisan effort. Created by Republicans, but signed into law by a Democratic president. The husband of the same person who almost became our current president.

    Get away from the "us versus them" mentality. All the bad shit we have right now is the result of bi-partisan cooperation among politicians.

    Your side is crap as well as the other side.

    Insulting "the other side" does nothing to solve the underlying problem.

    1. Re:"Us" versus "them" by silentcoder · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >All the bad shit we have right now is the result of bi-partisan cooperation among politicians.

      Really ? I could have sworn we just had 8 years where not a single bipartisan moment happened, and things which USED to be matters of bipartisan consensus were actively opposed purely because of who was president.

      Are you seriously saying that ALL the problems in the USA predate the Obama administration ? Hell even most liberals won't give him that much of a free pass - we tend to think there were a few things we wished he'd done differently.

      Bipartisanship is NOT a bad thing, it's not a good thing either. Fundamentalism of any kind - tends to be evil - and that is more commonly associated with obstruction than bipartisanship.
      It's not an unqualified good, but it is definitely not a bad thing either - whether any particular idea is good or bad, in fact, is entirely divorced from whether it's supported by one party or two. The idea should be judged on it's own merit.

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      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    2. Re:"Us" versus "them" by trawg · · Score: 1

      Get away from the "us versus them" mentality. All the bad shit we have right now is the result of bi-partisan cooperation among politicians.

      you guys need a third side, something fierce

    3. Re:"Us" versus "them" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We need "a" side, all we have now are a bunch of bottoms (as in bottom of the barrel, not in any kind of sexual connotation)

    4. Re:"Us" versus "them" by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      Your argument assumes the government doing anything other than being ground to a halt is a good thing.

      All judgeships below Supreme Court are simple majority votes now, thanks to the Democrats nuclear option in 2013. Short-sighted buffoons on both sides.

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      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    5. Re: "Us" versus "them" by silentcoder · · Score: 2

      Its not an assumption. Its a fact. If you want to live under a government ground to a halt then go to Mogadishu.

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    6. Re:"Us" versus "them" by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      "ALL" of it is a bit of pointless oversimplification. I don't see many democrats attempting to gut the EPA. I don't see democrats leading the charge to irresponsibly cut taxes to the wealthy, or continuing to argue for reganomics.

      There are times when any rational, honest person can conclude there's a right side and a wrong side. You're right that the DMCA is bipartisan shit, but it's not ALWAYS both sides, and there are times when one side is a bad actor.

    7. Re:"Us" versus "them" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We keep trying, and they keep turning into really really weird minority parties that are crazier than the existing ones...

    8. Re: "Us" versus "them" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Haiti is so much better, and Venezuela, and Russia, and China. Governments are great, behold our great saviors!!

    9. Re:"Us" versus "them" by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      We keep trying, and they keep turning into really really weird minority parties that are crazier than the existing ones...

      Or getting absorbed into the major two parties, like the Tea Party did.

    10. Re: "Us" versus "them" by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Wow... funny how you seem to live in a world where there is no Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France or Netherlands... you know, the kind of countries Bernie Sanders thinks it would be a good idea for the USA to emulate.

      Nice strawman you got there, would be a shame it something happened to it.

      And frankly even those bad examples you cited are better than Mogadishu - at least they have some law and order, sewage systems, roads... where the government has completely failed - none of those are available and the country is basically a bunch of competing warlords whose competition mostly consists of killing everybody else.

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    11. Re:"Us" versus "them" by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      I could have sworn we just had 8 years where not a single bipartisan moment happened

      This is a great "talking point" but it is completely false. Look at the record instead of getting your information from blue bubbles.

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      Murphy was an optimist
    12. Re:"Us" versus "them" by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      So the oath by republicans to resist Obama at every turn "to make him a one-term president" never happened according to you ?

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    13. Re:"Us" versus "them" by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      In the last two years of the Clinton Administration a Republican Senate/House worked with Clinton and all kinds of good things happened. The Democrats took credit for all of it, of course, and still do.

      The Democrats blocked Bush at every turn, treated him like shit, attacked endlessly, suggested he should be assassinated... They set new lows for respecting the Presidency.

      Then they won the White House and declared ANY opposition to them to be RACIST. The war of words that you are taking five words out of context from, and declaring to to be the policy of the Republicans, is, of course, a talking point. It's the same old tired strawman. The truth is that plenty of bipartisan bills have been crafted and signed into law during the Obama years. The big exception being the ACA, which passed without a single Republican vote.

      Now the Democrats are in the minority party, just like the Republicans were in 2008, and big surprise they are working even harder to stop Trump, and de-legitimatize his Presidency than anyone has ever done before. They tried to stop Trump before he was even inaugurated, and are blocking everything, stalling, and generally being petty, immature, and childish. The first lawsuits have already been filed!

      This is what everyone who doesn't live in a blue bubble remembers. If you get all your news from said bubbles, GREAT! You're entitled to your opinion, Sir. But don't expect the rest of us to buy what you're selling.

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      Murphy was an optimist
    14. Re:"Us" versus "them" by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Yes we're resisting Trump. That's what you do with fascists. You don't yield. You punch the fucking nazis in the face.

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    15. Re:"Us" versus "them" by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      And here lies the essence of the problem. You see the world through a single lens, where your actions are justified - no matter how counterproductive, offensive, insulting, crude, and rude they are -- but when the opposition acts even remotely the same as you we hear the cries of indignation.

      Instilling people with this kind of mindset ensures they are easily controlled, because they are thinking with their emotions, not their brains.

      Calling anyone a Nazi - when they aren't committing genocide - is extremely racist. Think about it.

      This isn't how you get shit done, and it certainly isn't how you get along with people.

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      Murphy was an optimist
    16. Re:"Us" versus "them" by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Even the original NAZIs were NAZIS long BEFORE they ever committed genocide. Hell almost 3 decades before ! Hell, they were NAZIs before Hitler even joined the party !

      Imagine if there were mass protests in the streets of Germany when Hitler became president in 1929, before he was chancelor, before he was Fuhrer, while the system of checks and balances were still intact ? Imagine if Germany had known the signs to look for - and the leftists and moderates (Who were the majority) had stood up to him when his politics first became part of the mainstream, before they had no power to do anything about it anymore.

      You can't fight NAZIs AFTER they start the genocide, then the only thing that stops them is full-scale war. Punching them now is the more peaceful option.

      We have an advantage they didn't have. We DO know the signs. We know what things mean "this person wants to be a dictator and will do his damndest to become one". We have seen Trump consistently act exactly has Musolini and Hitler did. We see the president now doing exactly what a dictator would do. Gagging scientists, erasing topics from communications, telling grossly egregious lies which are so blatantly obvious that their ONLY possible purpose can be to reward those who spread them and punish those who insist on reality, signing a death warrant for millions of women world-wide, ostensibly to restrict abortion (but anybody who can read knows that banning abortion is impossible - laws against it do not and never have reduced abortion rates, all you CAN do by making a law against it is to kill women - if he actually wanted to reduce abortion he would make birth control free -that actually works), getting his supporters riled up into blaming vulnerable people for their own problems, claiming to be a man of the people then stuffing his cabinet with elites (it's the wealthiest cabinet in history), using the slogan "America First" - for decades already the official slogan of the American NAZI and NEO-NAZI movements - right back to the John Birch society (Doctor Seus even commented on it in a cartoon in 1941), defunding government scientists whose results he dislikes, signing a go-ahead for DAPL in flagrant violation of the Sioux treaty and the will of the people (the fact that he's a major investor in the pipeline didn't influence that all right ?), overturning decades of US policy by trying to form an alliance with Russia against China... because an imperialist, expansionist dictator will make such a reliable friend right ? Emboldening and embracing racist and white supremacist movements (with a result that hate crimes have been at an all-time high since his election - including violence and harassment. There is hardly a POC left in the USA who hasn't head "Trump won go back to " at least once since then).

      We have seen this happen before, we are seeing it happen now. Historically - there are only two possible outcomes: a civil war or a world war. But maybe... we're seeing a third, one I hadn't seen before because it's never happened before. We're seeing mass protest and resistence from day one. We're seeing the people fight back - while their democratic institutions still function. That has never happened before. That may mean... there could be a third way. I'm up for trying at least, and if it doens't work - then I'll put my hopes in a civil war rather than a world war. It would be better to start fighting him inside America, before he starts fighting everybody else.

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    17. Re:"Us" versus "them" by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      You're not old enough to know jack about WW2 Sir. You're entire diatribe is a collection of left wing talking points, you might as well have cut and pasted it off HuffPo, or Think Progress. I'm not worried, I was young and passionate once. Just be careful who you go around preaching civil insurrection to... for your own sake.

      Rasmussen has Trump approval rating today at 59%.

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      Murphy was an optimist
    18. Re:"Us" versus "them" by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      They may be left wing talking points. They are also true. And I'm not preaching civil insurrection. i'm preaching self defence.

      We've been listening to conservatives promise to take up arms against the government if it threatens their freedom all our lives. Now the government actually IS threatening people's freedom... and you can't handle the fact that it's the LIBERALS who are actually willing to DO it.

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    19. Re:"Us" versus "them" by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Seriously though - do you think that the global gag rule is anything BUT signing a death warrant for millions of women ? Because it's been that every time a republican has signed it since Reagan, is it somehow going to magically *not* kill them this time ? And don't come with "taxpayer money for abortions" - that doesn't happen anywhere domestically or abroad though republicans love pretending it does to keep their base riled up. And the law against that has nothing whatsoever to do with the global gag order, that's the Helm's act.

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    20. Re:"Us" versus "them" by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      I think you have to wait and see what actually HAPPENS instead of being worried about what MIGHT HAPPEN.

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      Murphy was an optimist
    21. Re:"Us" versus "them" by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      You're like a guy who sticks a gun against somebody's head and says "Just because every other time somebody took a large calibre bullet to the brain at point blanc range doesn't mean you'll die THIS time".

      In other words... a moron.

      If you're going to argue there is any chance in hell that THIS time the global gag order will NOT kill millions of women - you have to give evidence for that insane statement, show something that is different in the world now that will change the outcome. You did nothing of the kind. You just want us to look on at somebody doing something that has never failed to kill millions of people... and what ? Hope for the best ?

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    22. Re:"Us" versus "them" by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      All my liberal friends resort to name calling when I refuse to engage in what I call the "Endless diatribe of righteous indignation". The instant one topic has been laid to rest there must be another.

      And now you've done it. I suppose "moron" is better than "racist" but you have succeeded in ending this thread. Try to be happy, will you? So many of my liberal friends seem to live in a state of perpetual angst, they are highly susceptible to the emotional arguments that are the staple of liberal echo chambers, and they just seem so unhappy all the time. Such a sad way to spend the one life you have.

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    23. Re: "Us" versus "them" by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Nice stereotype you got there would be a shame if something happened to it. Oh crap. Its a scientiffic fact that conservatives are far more anxious than liberals and readily swayed by fear - especially unrealistic fears. Just look how afraid they are of refugees - no liberal would let millions die out of fear that a few may be terrorists. We are just not that scared of them.
      But we do know facts. And its a fact that abortion cannot be banned. Only safety in abortion can be banned. That is what the global gag order does - and it kills millions.

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  22. Re:American Jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    You fulfill the stereotype that people with low user IDs are autistic middle age weirdos, likely unemployed, who can't work out conversations.

  23. DMCA is a federal law by bluegutang · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Federal laws automatically override all state laws. So these laws will have no effect.

    1. Re:DMCA is a federal law by x0ra · · Score: 3, Insightful

      State legalization of pot is a precedent.

    2. Re:DMCA is a federal law by bluegutang · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not really. The Obama administration decided not to enforce the marijuana laws, but they are still on the books. From Wikipedia: "On August 28, 2013, a federal executive agency announced that it would no longer actively pursue marijuana offences taking place in the states that have legalized the small consumption and possession of marijuana." A future president could reverse that.

    3. Re:DMCA is a federal law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If the federal law says "you can't tamper with a car" a state law can say "it is illegal to sell cars covered by DMCA" The laws can contradict each other in spirit and effect, so long as they don't do so on points of law.

    4. Re:DMCA is a federal law by Jbcarpen · · Score: 2

      Presumably that's why these anti-DMCA laws "would require manufacturers to provide service information and sell repair parts to owners and independent repair shops."

      The DMCA might still say you aren't allowed to crack the encryption, but if the car manufacturer is required to give you the unencrypted version for free, you don't need to crack it either.

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      GENERATION 667: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation
    5. Re:DMCA is a federal law by geekmux · · Score: 3, Informative

      Federal laws automatically override all state laws. So these laws will have no effect.

      I think you may have forgotten the entire point of states maintaining a level of checks and balances with their own laws. A good example is the fact that marijuana is an illegal substance at the federal level, while many states have turned it into a legal industry.

      Enough states get behind DMCA abuse, and it will likely drive modifications into DMCA laws at the federal level as well. That's usually the approach to combating shitty laws driven by greed.

    6. Re:DMCA is a federal law by sjames · · Score: 4, Interesting

      He did that because he HAD to. Otherwise, he starts a small scale war where the state then makes most activities that might support enforcing the federal law illegal. Next thing you know, there are DEA agents sitting in jail while it all winds it's way slowly through the courts. Worst case (for the president), the legitimacy of invoking interstate commerce to permit the federal laws to exist ends up in court with an opponent that can actually afford to fight it.

    7. Re:DMCA is a federal law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonsense. DMCA is meant to protect encrypted CREATIVE works (i.e., copyrightable), which a list specifically isn't. There is no federal law that these state laws are contradicting. Remember the DMCA lawsuit over printer ink cartridges the courts smacked down?

    8. Re:DMCA is a federal law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Medical MJ was available for a decade at least in CA before the feds decided to relax on enforcement. They regularly raided medical MJ shops and/or arrested people at home with licenses to grow. There was no small scale war.

    9. Re:DMCA is a federal law by Solandri · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I believe the question here is one of scope. The DMCA was created to protect copyrighted works - stuff that's supposed to be distributed throughout the public, but the creator still retains ownership rights.

      These companies (and printer manufacturers with their ink cartridges) have been trying to extend the DMCA to cover what's traditionally considered a trade secret - stuff that nobody except the creator is supposed to know about. The "problem" with trade secrets (from the owner's perspective) being that if anyone figures out or reverse engineers the secret, it's no longer a secret.

      As Congress hasn't made any moves to address whether or not the scope of the DMCA covers trade secrets under the guise of copyright, these states are. That way the conflict between these state laws and DMCA can be resolved through the courts, and case law setting the boundary on whether the DMCA can be extended to protect trade secrets in this manner..

    10. Re:DMCA is a federal law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Saying Obama decided not to enforce the cannabis laws is inaccurate. Initially following Obama's inauguration, there was some rhetoric that the DEA wouldn't target caregivers in medical cannabis states, but that turned out to be a ruse.

      A June 2013 report issued by Americans for Safe Access found that the DEA had carried out some 270 medical marijuana raids under Obama—twelve more than had been conducted in the previous twelve years combined. It calculated that the Obama administration had spent $300 million “interfering” with state medical marijuana laws in the last four and a half years, outspending the Bush administration (both terms) by $100 million.

      The Ogden memo was not only supposed to prevent these raids; to those in the medical marijuana industry, it had sent a message encouraging the industry’s growth. Indeed, some have said that the reason the number of raids carried out under Obama spiked is due explicitly to the sheer number of dispensaries that set up shop after the memo’s release.

      In January 2013, an anonymous White House official told the Huffington Post that the Ogden memo had been misconstrued: it was never meant to encourage the industry’s growth. “If you read the memo, with the exception of a few words you maybe could’ve worded better, it’s really not that different from current law,” the source told reporters Ryan Grim and Ryan J. Reilly. “It took us by surprise, I will tell you, the way it was received in the beginning, and then the media ran with that narrative, that this was a change in policy and Obama’s gonna allow medical marijuana shops.

      To correct the impression that it had given a green light to medical marijuana providers, the Justice Department released a new memo on June 29, 2011. Named after Deputy Attorney General James Cole, it was marketed as a “clarification.” While the Ogden memo hadn’t been too explicit about who constituted a “caregiver,” the Cole memo defined the term explicitly as an individual who cares for patients, “not commercial operations cultivating, selling or distributing marijuana.” Practically overnight, dispensary operators and growers who thought they were free and clear so long as they didn’t traffic, work with gangs or sell to kids found themselves in the same category as the members of organized crime.

      So when they saw everyone 'initially misconstrue' the Ogden memo why didn't they clarify then? Well because it wasn't misconstrued, they went back on their word.

    11. Re:DMCA is a federal law by sjames · · Score: 1

      There were a few skirmishes, sure. But notice how the feds didn't go on a crazy all out assault in spite of the location of each and every dispensary being well known and there being thousands of them.

      Instead, they picked on a few where they had some shred of evidence (often bogus, but still) that the state law wasn't being strictly followed.

      In return, they lost support of state law enforcement and their costs shot up.

    12. Re:DMCA is a federal law by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      We're most likely going to see that small scale war here really soon after Sessions is confirmed as AG and starts directing the DEA to shut down all the MJ activity in the various states.

    13. Re:DMCA is a federal law by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      He did that because he HAD to. Otherwise, he starts a small scale war where the state then makes most activities that might support enforcing the federal law illegal.

      Naw, what would happen from what I inferred here in Seattle when the city and state police were discussing the future of legalization is that if the Feds wanted to press charges, then they could expect for Feds to be the ones arresting, detaining, and judging all these cases. If the Feds put up a stink, no doubt there would be enough small time possession cases pressed to tie up the Fed courts for years in just a few weeks. One of the reasons the state was happy to get rid of the laws was the expense to the legal system but they'd just shuffle everything to Fed courts and jails if they had to.

    14. Re:DMCA is a federal law by sjames · · Score: 1

      That is related to my point. Basically, the state would ban state and local law enforcement from cooperating with the feds, an activity that supported the enforcement of the federal law.

      A similar tactic is being used against ICE in a number of cities.

  24. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by x0ra · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's the beauty of a FEDERAL state. Don't like Cali, got to Idaho, don't like Idaho, go to New York...

  25. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by x0ra · · Score: 5, Informative

    Bill Clinton, a DEMOCRAT, signed it into law.

  26. Re:American Jobs? by geekmux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That is a bit of anger! Relax Mr. Anonymous Coward!

    This has nothing to do with Anonymous Coward. This has everything to do with Common F. Sense.

    And if it's not about foreign v. American jobs, why does the summary say "Thankfully, voters are stepping up to protect American jobs"?

    Because TFS is inaccurate. Sure as hell wouldn't be the first time. This has to do with protecting the rights of any car owner or 3rd party repair shop to service or repair a car if they have the knowledge and skill to do it. And to give TFS some credit for accuracy, yes, that would include American jobs, but more accurately any American who happens to own a device they hold the skill to service or repair, regardless if they hold a job doing it.

    I've been maintaining my own vehicles for almost three decades, and as a result my cars have lasted me at least 200,000 miles each time. I've also not had to waste thousands of dollars on misdiagnosed issues of questionable legitimacy; otherwise known as why we call them stealerships. It's no secret the department driving considerable profit into a stealership is the service department, and I'm not about to be forced to have my car "serviced" by pure unadulterated greed just because they didn't get enough profit from me when I bought the damn car.

    If automakers and stealerships had their way, every Discount Auto Parts and Autozone would be shut down, Haynes and Chilton repair manuals would be illegal, you would need a federal license to even look at the Craftsman tool department in Sears, and opening the hood on your car would require an encryption key. Abusing the shit out of the DCMA seeks to destroy an entire industry that has been established for decades, along with the thousands of jobs within. Are automakers likely trying to protect some American jobs? Sure, but the end result would still be a rather massive net loss.

    In this case, Common F. Sense needs to prevail over Corruption N. Greed. Plain and simple.

  27. this would be a good test for Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Will he side with the repairmen or will he side with the megacorp.

    1. Re:this would be a good test for Trump by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Depends. Does he have stock in the megacorp?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  28. Re:American Jobs? by geekmux · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You fulfill the stereotype that people with low user IDs are autistic middle age weirdos, likely unemployed, who can't work out conversations.

    The parent has a valid point here, and the GP is an idiot for bringing up Chinese hackers. The actions of both those for and against the DCMA in this case is fighting over American jobs, but siding with the automakers and stealerships would result in a massive net loss for American jobs, since they would not seek to hire everyone they wish to put out of business by turning auto repair into some sort of DMCA-protected black magic.

    This pretty much has fuck-all to do with China, apart from giving them credit for cracking a "code" that should have never been allowed to exist in the first place, under a weak-ass DMCA argument. Ironically enough, the hacking in this case creates American jobs.

  29. Not so fast. by jxander · · Score: 2

    There is a use-case for locked down hardware in an automobile: self-driving vehicles.

    As much as you should have the rights to tinker on the things you own (and you should) things get a lot trickier when we start talking about the software or sensors that actually control your vehicle as it drives down the road.

    It's going to be a complex issue with a LOT of debate, so I won't pretend like I can solve it in a single post. Suffice to say, lets not dismiss the entire concept of non-user-serviceable vehicles, in the long term. (though one thing I will say, that fact would have to be fully disclosed at time of purchase)

    --
    This signature is false.
    1. Re:Not so fast. by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, lets.

      It is perfectly legal for me to repair my own brakes or steering. People have done so for decades even though a failure while driving could be very bad. The upshot is simple, if you're going to work on safety critical parts of your car, you'll want to make sure you know what you're doing. If you screw up, you might face significant liability.

    2. Re:Not so fast. by buck-yar · · Score: 1

      Had a car 8 years ago that 2 weeks after a State Inspection, the brake lines blew and I nearly died coming down a hill.

      Pros aren't anything special. Doubt most hit triple digit IQs.

    3. Re:Not so fast. by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Nothing in your post has anything approaching reality. Do automotive repair then come back and post how more complex self-driving cars are....

    4. Re:Not so fast. by geekmux · · Score: 1

      There is a use-case for locked down hardware in an automobile: self-driving vehicles.

      As much as you should have the rights to tinker on the things you own (and you should) things get a lot trickier when we start talking about the software or sensors that actually control your vehicle as it drives down the road.

      It's going to be a complex issue with a LOT of debate, so I won't pretend like I can solve it in a single post. Suffice to say, lets not dismiss the entire concept of non-user-serviceable vehicles, in the long term. (though one thing I will say, that fact would have to be fully disclosed at time of purchase)

      If liability is what you're attempting to justify with DMCA, let me tell you what will happen.

      Can't maintain your own trees on your property because you might do it wrong and it could fall and kill a human. Gotta pay a licensed professional.

      Can't clean your own kitchen because there's a chance you could do it wrong and kill a human via food poisoning. Gotta pay a licensed professional.

      Can't install apps on your phone because you could do it wrong and be part of a botnet that attacks some corporation or country. Gotta pay a licensed professional.

      Hope you see the common theme here. Don't think for a second it won't come to this if we open that greedy fucking door. Things won't get a lot "trickier". Those in power will lobby to mandate and control every fucking thing that they feel needs to have revenue driven into certain pockets. Not unlike what automakers are trying to do today.

      As far as autonomous vehicles, don't worry. By the time we get to that point of mass autonomy, the entire concept of owning the car will be illegal. You will pay for every ride every time.

    5. Re:Not so fast. by flink · · Score: 1

      Actually, lets.

      It is perfectly legal for me to repair my own brakes or steering. People have done so for decades even though a failure while driving could be very bad. The upshot is simple, if you're going to work on safety critical parts of your car, you'll want to make sure you know what you're doing. If you screw up, you might face significant liability.

      Self guidance software isn't the same as brakes.

      In the future, once the market and regulatory environment has matured, the code that is operating a self-driving vehicle will have been certified to operate safely and within traffic regulations. The code you write yourself, or more likely, the firmware some yahoo downloads from the internet, has not. Since the software is in effect the operator of the vehicle, this is like driving without a license, and yes, should be illegal. Civil liability isn't good enough. It's small compensation to me that my next of kin will be paid out when your buggy code gets me flattened.

      At the very least, I would expect that in the future any software that is autonomously operating a vehicle on public roads would be signed by a licensing agency, just as human operators are licensed by the DMV. If you want to put your home grown guidance software through the QA certification process that the commercial software goes through, then I guess I would be OK with it, but something tells be that will be neither cheap nor easy.

    6. Re:Not so fast. by The-Ixian · · Score: 1

      Self guidance software isn't the same as brakes.

      I would think that a guidance failure can result in as much damage as a brake failure but probably wouldn't.

      Brake failure: Plow into a group of people crossing the street

      Guidance failure: Head toward a group of people crossing the street or on the sidewalk or in the oncoming traffic lane (etc), but at least you have brakes to stop the vehicle and avoid a collision.

      --
      My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
    7. Re:Not so fast. by sjames · · Score: 1

      And since the odds are the guidance software won't break, very few will care to touch it anyway. Much like very few people design their own replacement braking system. There are some who install after-market brakes, but those do go through safety testing so that the seller doesn't get sued into the stone age.

    8. Re:Not so fast. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And once the code is licensed by an agency and flattens one of your relatives, you will get nothing at all because the code was licensed in the first place. Then you would have to pony up millions and years of your life to revoke the license via the legal process. You managed to recreate the mess of collusion and cost that is FDA approval and revocation.

      We have been over this. Open source is better than proprietary when security matters.

    9. Re:Not so fast. by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      You missed some things too:

      Can't make your own food in your own kitchen because there's a chance you could do it wrong and kill a human (including yourself) via food poisoning. Gotta pay a licensed professional personal chef, or go to a restaurant for all your meals.

      Can't own your own kitchen knives because they could injure or kill a human. Only a licensed professional is allowed to own and use kitchen knives.

      Can't mow your own lawn with your own lawnmower because your or your kid could be injured by the blades or a rollover accident or being driven over by the mower. Only a licensed professional lawn care technician is allowed to cut your grass.

      Can't clean your own bathroom because you might mix ammonia and bleach and produce poisonous gas, or you might not clean it enough and have unsanitary conditions. Gotta pay a licensed professional to clean your bathroom, and it has to be done according to a set schedule so you can't opt out either, and the local government will make sure the cleanings are done on time by a licensed professional.

      Can't take a shower by yourself because you might slip and fall. Gotta pay a licensed professional to help you bathe.

    10. Re:Not so fast. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Since the software is in effect the operator of the vehicle

      That's where your argument breaks down. The human is the operator of the vehicle, regardless of what software it's running.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    11. Re:Not so fast. by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Since the software is in effect the operator of the vehicle

      That's where your argument breaks down. The human is the operator of the vehicle, regardless of what software it's running.

      The code is going to be the operator of the car. Right now it is not, but it will be. There's not a huge upside to all of this self-driving without that being the case. That's always been the end goal -- to have a car drive itself completely, such that the human doesn't even have to look at the road. The other big promise is a car that can drive itself without anyone inside of it. That's coming, too.

    12. Re:Not so fast. by flink · · Score: 1

      Since the software is in effect the operator of the vehicle

      That's where your argument breaks down. The human is the operator of the vehicle, regardless of what software it's running.

      Right now that's the case because cars aren't really fully autonomous yet. But they will be someday relatively soon. What about when there is no human in the car at all (e.g. you order a car from Uber once it does away with human drivers)?

      The situation we have now where the car mostly drives itself, but might precipitously switch over to manual mode is probably the worst of both worlds. Assuming control of a system that was previously operating itself you are not going to have the same situational awareness as if you were operating it manually from the get go. Many plane crashes are caused by just such a situation: the autopilot cuts out due to a sensor failure or some other unhandled condition and the pilots take incorrect action due to the sudden switch in operating modalities.

      There is no way I am getting into a car that is mostly operating itself, but for which I assume full liability for.

    13. Re:Not so fast. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A car is a machine, and has no legal rights nor responsibilities. This holds whether every little thing has to be controlled by the driver or there is no driver. Machines don't have legal liability, the liability falls on the user of the machine. If you direct your self-driving car to go somewhere, and it crosses over the center line and front-ends me, you're liable, just like you're liable for any damage your drone causes even when it's flying itself.

      The division of liability between car director and manufacturer may get complicated, but the courts can settle that. I'd suspect that if someone changed the software in an unauthorized way, that person would get stuck with the liability. Not that it's real good if it winds up that your executor bankrupts the guy who changed the software and gets what's left after attorney's fees to put in your estate.

      Posting anonymously because I moderated.

  30. Re: Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yah but Obama championed internet privacy and freedoms, no??

  31. Re:American Jobs? by sjames · · Score: 1

    Yes, but it is American independent mechanics who will use it to fix American cars in America. Also, perhaps if the gray area was cleared up, an American company might dare to make such tools as well.

  32. Re: Let's talk about Trump now! by Crashmarik · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yah but Obama championed internet privacy and freedoms, no??

    The one that expanded NSA Spying ?
    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/...

  33. Re:American Jobs? by geekmux · · Score: 4, Informative

    Let's remember, Autel is a company based in Shenzhen, China. Ford is based in Dearborn, MI, USA. So these bills are all about robbing American jobs, to support Chinese hackers.

    To give you an idea of just how wrong you are, in this case, "hackers" cracking a code has created and secured American jobs by enabling American workers to thrive in a 3rd party industry that has been established for decades, fighting against automakers who wish to turn auto repair into some kind of fucking black magic voodoo, driven by greed.

    The larger issue is the fact that we're reliant upon hackers from any country to crack codes that should have never been allowed to exist in the first place, codes created and protected by abusing the shit out of the DMCA.

    And yes, this issue does get rather sticky because it's actually about fighting over American jobs. Those jobs created by automakers and "authorized" repair centers (read: stealerships) vs. the much larger industry of 3rd party repair shops and DIY mechanics wanting to maintain their own vehicles.

    Perhaps if they didn't get so fucking greedy to earn the moniker of stealership, this wouldn't have grown to be such an issue. Either way, the DMCA abuse needs to stop.

  34. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of the beauties indeed. It's a shame that so many people won't get involved in their states machinery and let the central government dominate.

  35. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't own land, do you?

    You can't just pick up land and everything on your land and move somewhere else just because your neighbors vote for policies you don't like.

    Oh right, another thing. You think elections are popularity contests.

    You don't vote for policies, do you?

  36. Patchwork by Roodvlees · · Score: 1

    Is anyone actually in favor of DMCA laws and why?
    It looks like big corp buying laws at the expense of the people.

    --
    Thank you, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and so many others, for courageously defending humanity, my freedom and more!
    1. Re:Patchwork by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hate brigade? Christ, you are a fucking moron.

    2. Re:Patchwork by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dismissing viewpoints from "hate brigade" is an ad hominem logical fallacy. If you want other people to take your arguments seriously, you should refrain from using that.

      But, assuming you have a valid point, could you please explain exactly what the benefits of DMCA is?

    3. Re:Patchwork by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      In this case please enlighten us what is our benefit? What part of the DMCA is actually in favor of the general population instead of catering to the interests of an insignificant minority to line their pockets.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Patchwork by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      The hate brigade have been chanting "dmca bad, dmca bad" for 20 years. You can't seriously expect an unbiased debate now.

      The DMCA is a clear restriction on the rights of everyone in order to benefit a few, giving them special protections and rights (such as protections against reverse engineering) that they never had before. What is not to hate about that? 'Hate brigade?' Maybe everyone who hears about it dislikes it because it seems like such a bad idea on principle.

    5. Re:Patchwork by Roodvlees · · Score: 1

      There are very good and rational reasons to be against DMCA
      I don't see any to be in favor, unless you're a big corporate record label and want to hold down your competition.

      --
      Thank you, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and so many others, for courageously defending humanity, my freedom and more!
  37. Re: American Jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and as a result my cars have lasted me at least 200,000 miles each time

    Sounds like he did, dickhead.

  38. So we no longer own the cars we 'buy'? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Then why 'buy' them at all? Preventing people from repairing cars is going to be a massive incentive for people to switch over to ridesharing services, starting with urban drivers who have been used to keeping a second car. Let Ford and Uber fight over the DMCA.

  39. What about fucking programs?!?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Can WE get a right to repair the software? Having source code doesn't mean we own the copyrights to it any more than owning the binary copy means we own it. But it sure as shit means we can't repair it. Especially when the software is EOL'd, a problem that mechanics don't have to face.

    So when do we get the right to repair software, hmm?

  40. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wow, talk about a straw man. This nonsense is insane even for Slashdot.

  41. Right to 3D print by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who "repairs" anything anymore, now that we are in the 3D printed revolution post-Luddite world?

    We simply 3D print replacement cars these days.

    1. Re:Right to 3D print by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Just wait 'til 3D printing catches on.

      In case you're not familiar with this, spare parts for cars is a HUGE business. And everyone involved is fleecing you, no matter where you get that part, whether it's a "genuine" original, a knockoff, even if you get it from a junk yard from a wreck, in the end you'll be charged many, many times over what the part actually costs you to build it in a 3D printer.

      Can you imagine just what kind of industry you're standing against if that takes off? If you think the MAFIAA's battle against that dreaded "copying" was big, just wait 'til car companies and the fully dependent downstream companies (which are far from mom'n'pop shops as well!) feel the pain of you creating your own plastic parts for a buck that they wanted to sell you for twenty after mass producing it for a cent.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  42. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You don't vote for policies, do you?

    Uh, yes?

    Of course, no party agrees with everything I want. So I pick the most important case where they differ, and vote accordingly. So can you.

  43. Idiots... People want open ECUs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I specifically left Ford for motorsport vehicles (Cobra, GT500) and went over to Mitsubishi (Evolution IX, Evolution X) for this reason. Tired of having to pay for $1000+ tuning software just to be able to write the tunes myself, when a crash or new build happens the ECU ID changes and the software locks you out again.

    Where as on the Evo I literally had to buy a $120 cable and I can tune an unlimited number of cars with full control over ever parameter and essentially a fully professional environment to write custom tunes and even sell them if needed. We're not talking about end-user "hit apply" type tunes, I'm talking about changing individual load cells on hundreds of maps over months to dial in an exact tune.

    Besides that the car was built so much better I felt like an idiot for parading the domestic brands for so long. I literally traded a 32 valve V8 Cobra for an Evolution IX that had a four wheel drive turbo 2.0 liter 4 cylinder which pulled *harder* and was easier to get serious horsepower out of. My jaw literally dropped on the test drive of a modded 450whp Evo9. I had driven supercharged 500-700hp V8's but this little car never broke traction and made it's power lower in the RPM range which made it feel many times faster. Plus you could floor it around corners and it was just unbelievable how well it gained traction as boost kicked in around a corner.

    I never went back and almost nothing is locked down on these cars. Stop wasting your time with other brands... *Edit* Captcha was "inducer".

    1. Re:Idiots... People want open ECUs by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Every time I read something like this, I'm so glad that I quickly dismissed the idea of buying an American car the last time I needed a new car, and stuck with Japanese. Japanese cars are so much easier to work on and so much better designed. (Don't get European though; if anything those cars are *even worse* than American cars for repairability.)

    2. Re:Idiots... People want open ECUs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey guys, I'm VERY happy with Autel products.
      Had some old first gen Autel that worked till I ran it over.
      Now I've had an Autel MaxiDiag MD802 All System DS for a while now, cost me about $175.
      An Actron cp9690 would have cost me about $200 but the Autel seems to do more and have better coverage.
      Actron tries to compete with the cp9695 for $270 but again Autel is no worse and saves me $100 and honestly I feel these Chinese companies really care about servicing their customers more than they care about taking your dollars... US companies put so many paywalls in the way, and then just drop the product.
      Saving up now for an Autel MaxiSys Elite they're about $3000 nice Android based tablet, can surf the web and everything.

      Bottom line, I'd never sue these guys over silly DMCA decrypt reverse engineering whatever, they're making my life easier and more profitable.
      That means food on my table.

  44. Re:American Jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Exactly.
    Tax the chinese tools as they come across the border, if you want to protect American toolmakers.

    But this is about preventing the tool from being made in the first place. An American toolmaker wouldn't be able to make a Ford diagnostic tool either. And none of them try; unlike the Chinese they stand to loose a lawsuit in their own country which is always bad. The chinese can simply sell their now illegal tool in China & Europe and keep going.

  45. Don't buy Ford by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Problem solved.

  46. Re: And Trump will back it by PoopJuggler · · Score: 2

    Doubt it. Trump and his cronies are most certainly on the auto industry's payroll.

  47. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I find the partisanship of the USA electorate incredible. The government has in general a bipartisan agreement to not give a shit about the people yet everyone will blame something on one side or the other.

  48. Re: Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obama liked lots of things he knew had no chance in hell of getting through the House/Senate. That way he could claim he tried.

  49. Re:American Jobs? by starblazer · · Score: 1

    But this is about preventing the tool from being made in the first place. An American toolmaker wouldn't be able to make a Ford diagnostic tool either.

    Lies. They'd be able to make that tool with Ford$ ble$$ing.

  50. Re:You keep saying that. It doesn't mean what you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Which was, at that time, an extreme act.

    Jesus christ, now I know why the Trump supporters call you guys cucks.

    Vetoing legislation is about as extreme as a can of fucking Ensure.

  51. Broken people, broken society. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Activist groups like the EFF and Repair.org want to "ensure that repair people aren't marked as criminals under the DMCA," according to the site, arguing that we're heading towards a future with many more gadgets to fix. "But we'll have to fix copyright law first."

    Well we have to fix people first, but no one wants to tackle that job.

  52. Re:You keep saying that. It doesn't mean what you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm afraid the facts don't back you up on this one, much as I wish they did. While the Republican congress of 2009 undoubtedly made it their mission to stop Obama doing anything, regardless of its benefit to the American people, the presidential veto has always been an extremely common tool to be used. [source: http://www.senate.gov/reference/Legislation/Vetoes/vetoCounts.htm]

  53. Precedent by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

    Could be an interesting precedent, when my 'right to repair' my computer comes into question.

    --
    This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
  54. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    MN: Rs control both house and senate and the bill was put forward by 2 Rs and 1 D.

    NE:, Rs control the legislature and the bill was put forward by 7 Rs.

    NY: Rs control the senate, Ds control the House and the bill was sponsored by 1 R with 1 R and 3 Ds signing on as co-sponsors.

    The unions have the biggest interest in keeping small independent shops locked out. Oh wait but that means the Democrats might be the bad guys!!!

  55. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2

    You don't vote for policies, do you?

    If you ever made an effort to get involved with the legislature at the state level, you would be very surprised how easy it is to influence policy. Some state lawmakers saying getting just 1-3 letters about a bit of legislation can sway their vote on it. You should try it some time.

    --
    "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
    --- Jerry Garcia
  56. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See I weight a bunch of issues and try to line up with the one that will be best overall. I tend to weight fiscal stuff higher than social because I think we should fix that first. Based on your own description, you are what I call "those moronic single issue voters", but it was probably just a poorly worded /. comment.

  57. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

    I wish that wasn't true. But than I would either be blind or stupid. I may be a little of both but at least I got my ear balls open.

  58. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I can't imagine any rational person wanting to get involved in politics above the local municipal level.

    That statement, by itself, speaks volumes about the American public and the American political system.

  59. Re: And Trump will back it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think trump has the automakers by the ball's and they know it. All the shit being built in Mexico could really hit their bottom lines but wouldn't be great for the teetering economy. The bigger question is who is somebody like Ford more afraid of, Trump or the unions?

  60. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Atrox+Canis · · Score: 1

    See the comment above. All three states are controlled by R and R politicians are the ones that put forward these bills. Perhaps it will NOT be the GOP that is going to try to put the smack down, down. sigh

    --
    Charter Member of The Committee Group For The Elimination And Eradication Of Repetitive Redundancy
  61. How to start your new car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Insert key into lock on steering column.
    Sign EULA presented on display in center of dashboard.
    Drive to nearest dealer for software/firmware upgrade.
    Keep making the payments on your car loan.

  62. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course you can. It's just more of a pain in the ass. That said, if you own land, you've got $ even if it is locked up in the real estate, you've got more resources than the poor (or, even worse, not quite poor enough) to make that kind of move.

  63. CD copy protection is extremely rare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Many CD's have some sort of laughably stupid or downright evil (remember Sony?) copy protection

    I still buy CDs and it's been 13 years since I saw one which was alleged to contain a technological measure intended to limit access. Out of my approx 2000 CDs, literally exactly one of them has such a thing (which I didn't realize at the time I bought it). (And then I also didn't realize until after I ripped it and later found out that some people's drives (and car players) were having trouble with it.)

    If you make a CD player which can play 99.95% (1/2000) and fails on one, it will not only be perfectly legal, but people will be ok that it doesn't play the one broken CD. (They can just go pirate it, instead of buying it, if they want to hear the album.)

    DRM simply isn't a factor in the music sales. It effectively doesn't exist, except maybe in some of those streaming services. Video is where you go to find DRM, which is why I eventually gave up and started just pirating all my movies and TV, whereas I still buy music. Music publishers still want your money; it's the video people who are constantly creating piracy incentives.

    1. Re:CD copy protection is extremely rare by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

      DRM simply isn't a factor in the music sales.... Video is where you go to find DRM, which is why I eventually gave up and started just pirating all my movies and TV, whereas I still buy music. Music publishers still want your money; it's the video people who are constantly creating piracy incentives.

      Note that playable music does not have DRM, ever. You can record sound easily, always, since you can do analogue recordings. Video only has the appearance of DRM, in truth it is no different than sound, in that you can record everything in analog, and additionally you have the ability to record it digitally as well, if you're willing to open up your hardware. This would not violate the DMCA in anyway. You can also more simply just use certain pieces of hardware that give you access to unencrypted video/sound. There are various legal and some questionable ways to do so.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  64. Doesn't go far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Selling DRM should be taken as automatic proof of fraud. It's a product that was knowingly manufactured and sold with a severe defect. (So severe, in fact, that it's literally illegal to fix the defect.) A few criminal prosecutions where auto maker execs spend time in prison, combined with all of the sales of that model being effectively refunded by the civil suits, and this crap would go away overnight. The law should try to make fraud be unprofitable.

    The actual proposal looks like an absurd attempt to bend over backward to avoid the above common-sense solution. Because the above stuff is what we would do if we really wanted to fix the problem. Since it simply is fraud, all we need to do is stop supporting the pretense that it isn't.

  65. A headline, but not an effective law. by ColoradoAuthor · · Score: 3, Informative

    The proposed Nebraska statute says "Sec. 7: Nothing in the Fair Repair Act shall apply to motor vehicle manufacturers." As for other manufacturers, they get to take into account whether compliance would be too expensive, and the maximum penalty is $500. So regardless of whether or not you think these laws are a good idea, it's nothing close to being a Tech Writer Full Employment Act, an Everybody Can Repair Their Own Car Act, or a Put All The Small Manufacturers Out Of Business Act.

  66. States can restrict trade too. by Kludge · · Score: 1

    The states just have to ban sales of products that do not allow people to fix them. This does not overrule federal copyright law, it just restricts sales. You can be damn sure that if the car companies are only allowed to sell repairable cars in the state of California, car companies will make repairable cars.

  67. Re: Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No.

  68. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1
    --
    Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
  69. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

    Great, I wasn't suggesting democrats are now and have always been saints. I was making a joke about the state of the republican party today and now. I know people think the clintons are an omnipotent evil force, but you're not suggesting Bill will somehow override the state legislatures here, are you?

    I'm constantly astonished at the lengths people will go to to pretend that both sides are always equally bad in every example.

  70. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

    Seems to me like that's only true for a very small number of issues and to a very limited degree. If I dislike climate change, I can't just move to california and it's all okay.

    And it seems like states rights only work for silly republican ideas. Like "Hey, no sales taxes" or "We don't like the gays." California, Illinois, DC, or New York decide to limit guns and screams of "Tyrrany!" and legal challenges abound.

  71. Re:American Jobs? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    Fixing your car yourself means you are *stealing* money from the hard-working American workers who work at your local dealership!! You should be *happy* to pay $100/hour for dealership mechanics to fix things on your car (even if they're not broken), because this supports American workers and your local economy too! /s

  72. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    "Divide and conquer" is one of the oldest strategies in warfare.

  73. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by Dread_ed · · Score: 2

    And passed the senate with 99 yes votes, 54 Republicans and 45 democrats. One republican did not vote. The House put it to a voice vote, and it passed overwhelmingly. This was obviously something that our entire government thought was a STELLAR idea. Interesting that anyone would think that blaming any one party for this law is a correct or honest approximation of what really happened.

    This is just another example of how our "parties" act as a single organism when presented with the chance to circumvent or eliminate rights guaranteed to the US people. This is what they do. They love to talk about the wedge issues, and recirculate those endlessly to incite division in the voting populace. But when it comes to fucking us, the American people, they show their true colors and vote as a unit.

    If any of you partisan fools are brave enough to study the voting record you might learn something interesting. Your party, whichever one you choose, routinely does things you might find objectionable. If you weren't so absorbed in spewing vitriol at the people you have been programmed to blame and hate, and if you were not so desperately looking for that super-addictive high you get when you just know for sure you are right and someone else is wrong, and if you could stop emoting long enough to engage in rational thought and observe facts for what they are, you might be able to see exactly what you are fomenting with your idiotic partisan ranting and raving. Namely, you are giving your own party the impetus it needs to make political policy in direct contravention to your best interests.

    Quit being a sucker. Neither party has your interests at heart. The sooner you realize this, the sooner we can get the kind of government we need.

    --
    When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
  74. The reason vendors use DCMA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason the vendors are using DCMA is because of what the insurance regulators and lobbyists did to them with the 'black box' technology.
    The dipshit car manufacturers agreed that no one would be able to get a 'black box' reader to find out what data was being captured, or to allow anyone to find out where the device was installed.
    The car manufacturers are legally beholden to the insurance regulators and to those that made (licensed) the 'black box' technology, and if there is no DCMA protection, then this cat will soon be out of the bag.
    Within the current u.s. law, there is nothing illegal about a person getting a reader and finding where the box is located. It is only companies keeping secrets which prevent someone from getting the information today.
    But the car companies and the insurance regulators have been pushing to get the telemetry technology locked down so it is a CRIME to read or location the device.

  75. Re:You keep saying that. It doesn't mean what you by Rakarra · · Score: 1

    Come on man, are you totally blind to who the support base for the Hollywood studios who wrote and pushed for the DMCA are?

  76. Re: American Jobs? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

    Their products, their rules. Don't like them? Walk.

    It's called the right of first sale.
    Looks like a sale, smells like a sale, then it's a sale, and it's not their product anymore.

  77. Right to repair by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Indeed, good.

    In fact, exemption to DMCA about repairs should have been in the Fair Use exception from the beginning.
    (I'll have to check to be 100% sure, but in the equivalent under our local jurisdiction - that might already be the case...
    indeed we have one among the most liberal clones of the DCMA)

    And while in the US only 3 States start to think that defending the right to repair wouldn't be a bad idea, at the same time several European country (both EU and non-EU) are making big campaigns about "repair instead of throwing away".

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  78. Already the case ? by DrYak · · Score: 1

    this law might be used to repair defective CD's, it'll be gone.

    As far as I remember (Disclaimer: I don't live under US jurisdiction. Our equivalent of DMCA is much more liberal that yours), "Making backups of media you own" is one of the rare few exception which is already covered under "Fair Use" exceptions.
    (And your various mafiAA are already trying to fight it).

    These "Repair exceptions" won't have much impact to the mafiAA.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  79. "Us versus them" by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Get away from the "us versus them" mentality. All the bad shit we have right now is the result of bi-partisan cooperation among politicians.
    Your side is crap as well as the other side.
    Insulting "the other side" does nothing to solve the underlying problem.

    All the bad shit is mostly a result of your asinine political system.
    - Try to have a *direct democracy* to reduce the power of lobbyists, etc

    - Try to have multi-rounds presidential elections,
    the president not having (in apparence) so much importance,
    and you parliament of mixed composition,
    to avoid it degenerate into a 2-party system.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  80. Re:American Jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Firstly, fuck you and GP. secondly, fuck you.

    Autism is not slander. Autism is hard to work out. Autism is a varying degree of difficulty to the honest hard working families who have try to make a go.

    Autism is not a disability. Try for one second to put your mind in that of an ant.
    Now look at a human.
    That is the potential of an autistic child, to who you are NOW.
    Autistic ppl will pwn you into oblivian before you can blink.

  81. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by michael_wojcik · · Score: 1

    Bill Clinton, a DEMOCRAT, signed it into law.

    Yes. The past couple of Democrat presidents, and the Federal executive branch under them, have not been particularly keen on supporting civil liberties in a number of areas. That was frequently noted by civil-rights groups and other observers at least as far back as Clinton's first term; I remember a quote from the ACLU in Harper's in run up to the '96 election, noting that a continued Clinton administration might be just as bad as a Dole one, from their point of view.

    The Democratic Party has in recent decades been strongly supported by, and correspondingly gracious to, the entertainment industry. That's no secret either.

    You needn't be a supporter of the Republican Party, or a right-winger, or anything of the sort to acknowledge that. My political opinions tend leftward and I nearly always end up voting Democrat, but I'm under no illusion that Clinton or Obama were great friends of freedom of expression (or a number of other leftist or progressive causes). And pretending otherwise does Democrats no favors.

  82. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

    Your observation seems true on the surface, but election results tell a different story if viewed in the aggregate. Right now the Republicans hold stunning majorities in all but a few, regional areas. The Democrats - who are really good at making noise - are doing their very best to make everyone believe otherwise.

    --
    Murphy was an optimist
  83. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    but election results

    Elections have zero to do with a red vs blue public not realising that the equation is actually purple vs people.

  84. Re:Let's talk about Trump now! by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

    I respectfully disagree. In 2008 the "public" believed a "Sea Change" was underway, there were going to be HUGE changes, everything was going to be better.

    Eight years later and the blue party screwed the pooch so badly they are now in the worst shape since the Red party forced them to free their slaves, give women the vote, and repeal all the Jim Crow laws they wrote.

    So the country has, for the most part, turned from blue to red. The blues are a local, municipal party for the moment.

    We should all be hoping the red party does good, for the good of us all. I never met a politician I trusted, or liked... EVER. But I would like to see things improve...

    --
    Murphy was an optimist