FDA Confirms Toxicity of Homeopathic Baby Products; Maker Refuses To Recall (arstechnica.com)

Last year in November, the Federal Trade Commission issued an enforcement policy statement that requires over-the-counter (OTC) homeopathic drugs and product makers to disclose in their advertisement and labeling that there is no evidence that homeopathic products are effective. At around the same time the FTC issued the statement, the Food and Drug Administration was investigating homeopathic teething gels and tablets, which may have been improperly diluted, thus causing serious harm to infants. The FDA investigated 10 infant deaths and more than 400 reports of seizures, fever, and vomiting and confirmed Friday that belladonna, also known as deadly nightshade, was the prime suspect. When the FDA notified the products' maker, Hyland's, the company would not agree to recall the products. Ars Technica reports: Hyland's has been defensive since the FDA first opened the investigation last September. In an October press release, the company referred to agency's warnings as a source of "confusion" and assured consumers that the products are safe and effective. Still, the company discontinued distribution in the U.S. The National Center for Homeopathy, which has ties with Hyland's, slammed the FDA, calling the agency's warnings "arbitrary and capricious." In an "action alert," the organization went on to suggest that warning was prompted by "groups interested in seeing homeopathy destroyed" and led to "fear mongering" by the media. As before, the FDA is urging parents to avoid the homeopathic teething products and toss any already purchased. The FDA does not evaluate or approve the homeopathic products, which have no proven health benefit. Belladonna is an active ingredient in those products, but is supposed to be heavily diluted. Homeopaths belief that ailments and diseases can be cured by trace amounts or "memories" of toxic substances that mimic or cause similar symptoms. Homeopathy is a pseudoscience that has been squarely debunked, offering no more than a placebo effect. In its announcement Friday, the FDA said it had found inconsistent amounts of belladonna in Hyland's products. Some of the amounts were "far exceeding" what was intended.

Comments

TIL

[Anonymous Coward]

TIL there are at least 410 idiots stupid enough to use this shit on their children.

Re:TIL

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't work the same idiot did not get the kid vaccinated anyway.

Re:TIL

[rmdingler]

See it from their point of view: Homeopathy uses the same logic as vaccines.

However, unlike vaccines, with homeopathy, the undereducated are only damaging the likelihood of diminishing the number of their own offspring. Ignoring vaccines designed to protect herd immunity hurts the rest of us, too.

Re:TIL

[CanadianRealist]

Ok, so let's continue with that logic. If someone first jabs them with a pin then they will have no problem with someone stabbing them with a knife because they've been "inoculated" against stabbing.

Maybe they should use their "logic" to understand that one has been proven to be effective, the other has not.

Re:TIL

[james_gnz]

See it from their point of view: Homeopathy uses the same logic as vaccines.

Superficially the idea may appear the same. The idea of vaccines, however, is to introduce a weakened form of the disease's cause, before the disease is contracted (or at least before it spreads), so the immune system can prepare for it. (Modern) homeopathy involves introducing (water which was indirectly in contact with) a substance which produces the same symptoms, after the disease is contracted. Notable differences are:

• Homeopathy involves a substance other than the cause of the disease. The immune system could not learn about the cause of the disease this way.
• Homeopathy is administered after the disease is already contracted. It may be too late for the immune system to learn about the disease at this time.
• Homeopathic remedies are taken orally, not injected, reducing the likelihood that the immune system could learn anything from them.
• (Modern) homeopathy actually only administers water, no active substance, so it does nothing (except act as a placebo, and hydrate, I suppose).

These are significant differences.

Also, I've never heard of a homeopath suggesting a similarity between homeopathy and immunisation. (I'd love to see this though, if anyone has a link to such.)

Re:TIL

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that vaccines have proven efficacy. There's not a single peer reviewed scientifically sound paper which shows the efficacy of homeopathic "remedies" above and beyond placebo. There are however thousands to the contrary. It's bullshit and should be treated with contempt.

Re:TIL

[Anonymous Coward]

It would take a special kind of stupid to conclude that "Homeopathy uses the same logic as vaccines".

Imagine if somebody tried to sell you a vaccine that had been diluted to the point that in contained no detectable trace of anything resembling the virus it was intended to inoculate against. But they insisted that through some sort of magic, the molecules somehow "remembered" how to stimulate antibody generation in your body. Now imagine that this magical elixir had been thoroughly examined by the scientific community, who concluded that it has an efficacy of 0% (unlike the vaccine, whose efficacy is typically 80% or better). Now suppose the industry that produces said elixir is not strictly regulated by the FDA, so unlike with a vaccine there are no careful controls that attempt to avoid contamination.

So the vaccine has a 80+% chance of working, and a one-in-a-few-hundred-thousand chance of causing adverse reactions. The elixir has a 0% chance of working and a one-in-a-few-thousand chance of contamination causing adverse reactions. Oh, and the elixir is not covered by insurance.

The elixir, which bares zero resemblance to a vaccine, literally uses the same basic logic as a homeopathic remedy (because it literally is a homeopathic remedy).

Re:TIL

[h33t l4x0r]

How about exposing babies to peanuts so they don't develop life-threatening allergies later on?

Re:TIL

[sphealey]

The packaging for the product described in the OP looks no different from five similar and safe products that are on the shelf at your local drugstore. The word "homeopathic" is in small type compared to other marketing words - which are the same words used on much safer products - and many people have no idea what "homeopathic" means in any case.

So yeah, no. This is a clear case of misleading packaging and marketing; whether it is a criminal case remains to be seen.

Re:TIL

[dbIII]

Indeed. They took a good idea from someone who was trying to make the world a better place and instead twisted it into a scam to take money from sick people.
I'd better write some more to define the "good idea" because some will misunderstand or pretend to do so. The idea was to dilute a poison to the point where it would not kill the patient but would have an effect on a system that has a problem - eg. too much warfarin (used in rat poison) will kill you while a reduced amount inhibits blood clotting and will keep people in danger of strokes etc alive.
The scam artists took that idea and decided that making money was more important than being sure that their supposed cures worked.

Re:TIL

[dbIII]

Also, I've never heard of a homeopath suggesting a similarity between homeopathy and immunisation

If you know one I suggest mentioning it to them so long as you don't mind them ever talking to you again :)
Psuedo-science scams are based on something real to drag people into the bullshit. See also "mesmerism", debunked by both Ben Franklin and Voltaire, which was based on magnetism. Mesmer had real magnets when magnets were rare but the rest was bullshit.

Re: TIL

[Anonymous Coward]

if knives had capability to inject or were laced with relevant substances without severing enough blood vessels to cause such loss of blood flow to bodily systems that end in death then you would have a point. lets asse that both knives and needles are sterile before breaking the skin to balance the argument.

Re:TIL

[james_gnz]

Indeed. They took a good idea from someone who was trying to make the world a better place and instead twisted it into a scam to take money from sick people. I'd better write some more to define the "good idea" because some will misunderstand or pretend to do so. The idea was to dilute a poison to the point where it would not kill the patient but would have an effect on a system that has a problem - eg. too much warfarin (used in rat poison) will kill you while a reduced amount inhibits blood clotting and will keep people in danger of strokes etc alive. The scam artists took that idea and decided that making money was more important than being sure that their supposed cures worked.

Assuming Wikipedia's article on Homeopathy is accurate, Homeopathy didn't start as a good idea and get twisted, it was a bad idea to begin with. See Hahnemann's concept. Also, never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity (Robert J. Hanlon?). Homeopathy is no more ridiculous than most major religions.

Re:TIL

[michelcolman]

Good occasion to watch Tim Minchin's "Storm" again, about alternative medicine and such. (Skip the first minute)

Best quote from that video: By definition, alternative medicine has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work?...
Medicine.

Re:TIL

[Maritz]

What?

Re:TIL

[rmdingler]

Wonderful... watched it twice.

I recommend the cartoon version first, then the stage rendition.

Re:TIL

[houghi]

Serious question: If a placebo works, does it become a medicine? Not talking about curing cancer here, but more like morning drowsiness or a common headache or things like that.
Bit like a kiss on a kids knee to take away the pain.

Re:TIL

[Opie812]

haha, love that guy. Never seen the video before. Thanks for posting!

Re:TIL

[OldBus]

No. If something works better than a placebo it is a medicine. It it only works as well as a placebo it is an alternative medicine.

Re:TIL

[Anonymous Cow Ward]

No it doesn't? Vaccines take part of a pathogen (or a weakened version) and administer it at doses shown to be efficacious at preventing that pathogen from causing infections. Homeopathy takes something unrelated that happens to cause the same or similar symptoms, and then dilutes it to the point where there isn't any left. It's only the same logic if you take an overly reductionist approach.

Re:TIL

[dbIII]

No - the idea was the basis of modern medicine, but then perverting it.
It's all there in that article you are just misunderstanding what I was calling the good idea.
The good idea was not had by the quack Hahnemann but by people like Cullen (and many others) who provided the a real angle to exploit for a scam.

Re:TIL

[michael_wojcik]

Ok, so let's continue with that logic. If someone first jabs them with a pin then they will have no problem with someone stabbing them with a knife because they've been "inoculated" against stabbing.

That's just silly. You cure stabbing wounds by pricking the victim with a pin afterward.

"Tonight on Homeopathic ER: Doug shoots gunshot victim with tiny gun!"

Damn it, now I want to see that show made.

And on a related note: Shouldn't proponents of homeopathy cure disbelievers by going around arguing against it? Just a very little, of course. Maybe just chanting one syllable of an opposing argument.

Re:TIL

[michael_wojcik]

If a placebo works, does it become a medicine?

Not as such, because the placebo effect, by definition, can't depend on the particular placebo administered.

Instead, if there's a consistent, statistically significant placebo effect for a given condition, we can say that administering a placebo is an effective treatment (to some extent) for that condition.[1] So placebo X doesn't itself get promoted to medicine, but placebos in general can have medicinal effect.

Of course this means that "alternative" treatments, including magic water, can act as medicine. But the effect has nothing to do with the supernatural or nonsensical theories offered by practitioners,[2] and is usually highly patient-specific, unpredictable, and not very productive (i.e. it usually has little useful effect in terms of prolonging or improving life).

There's a large body of work on the epistemology of empirical science in general and of medicine in particular. While most of that falls under philosophy, and the rest is in effect meta-science (i.e. how to conduct science so that it's scientific), much of it is actually quite rigorous. Questions like yours have received a good deal of attention. Sometimes the purveyors of pseudoscience like to pretend that these sorts of questions undermine scientific epistemology, but they're just displaying their own ignorance, or being disingenuous.

[1] Or, more likely, for one or more of its symptoms; if the condition isn't purely psychosomatic, the placebo effect is probably only symptomatic. Of course, we know that for many physical ailments the patient's quality of life and state of mind can have a significant effect on the body's immune response and other healing factors, so sometimes that will have positive effects on the underlying cause as well. To the extent that such effects are measurable in a methodologically-sound manner, they fall under the aegis of scientific medicine as well.

[2] Or more precisely, those theories have no real explanatory or predictive power, and no advantage over random explanations. And since the epistemological protocols used to concoct them (making shit up and telling a story about it that's attractive to some audience) are arbitrary, they lack confirmability as well.

Re:TIL

[RockDoctor]

Not at all. Vaccination uses the logic of using parts or relatives of a disease causing agent (e.g. killed preparations of the bacterium or virus, broken into fragments, or for the classic smallpox virus, the cowpox virus which seemed to be a similar disease and had a known (if not understood) preventative ability). Homeopathy however only uses a symptom-based similarity idea, before diluting the symptom-similar substance to irrelevance.

If you think that's the same logic, then your understanding of logic is fatally flawed. I do hope that you work in programming and lose your job because of your public demonstration of seriously flawed logic.

I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[rsilvergun]

but from what I've heard there's been some deaths (10?). Why the hell don't we give our FDA enough power to shut this company down? They're still selling the stuff. And in packaging that makes it look like medicine.

Cutting back on bureaucracy and regulations sounds great in theory but, well, this is what it gets you.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[alvinrod]

I'm reminded of an old IRC quote: The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

Modern society has made the world such an overwhelmingly safe place compared to earlier periods in human history that the universe has to find new ways to work in natural selection. It says homeopathic right on the box, and I would imagine that this was something the parents sought out and wanted to buy. So just let them remove themselves from the gene pool or just regulate who gets to be a parent because I have a feeling that single regulation would remove the need for a lot of other stuff.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[MightyMartian]

I think the United States will be lucky if there is an FDA. Remember, it's all about deregulation now. Who needs food safety anyways? Only fucking Commies.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

>Why the hell don't we give our FDA enough power to shut this company down?

Because congress decided to accept bride money from homeopathic bullshit peddlers and vitamin hucksters.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[mmell]

Give the FDA enough power to shut them down? That sounds like it would be bad for business. I don't think that'll sit too well with the current regime, er . . . administration.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[MightyMartian]

Evolution happens even in a relatively fixed environment. If nothing else, you'll have neutral drift.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[amiga3D]

The problem is they've found evidence the product is defective and the poison is not properly diluted. From this point if anyone dies it's a murder case. It's not the kids fault the parents are deranged and there have been many cases where crazy/stupid fools have somehow managed to have offspring that far exceed expectations given their bloodline. Humanity is a crap shoot.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[amiga3D]

They voluntarily put a warning on the package already. It says homeopathic. What more would you need to know it was useless at best and harmful/deadly at worst.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Major Blud]

I would imagine that this was something the parents sought out and wanted to buy

I'm not so sure about that. I doubt most people actually know the true definition of homeopathic. A lot of people get that confused with "organic" (which is an entirely different argument). A while back I had to explain this to my mother-in-law. She had totally confused "organic" and "homeopathic" with "natural". She had no idea that these were 3 completely unrelated things. I doubt that she's an outlier; quite a lot of people get their medical advice from Oprah and Dr. Oz.

In the case at hand, the solution still contained traces of belladonna. How in the hell did this get screwed up? Aren't homeopathic remedies supposed to "work" better in higher dilutions?

I apologize for the over-use of double-quotes. :-)

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[sjames]

I'm generally left leaning, but in the case of the FDA, I think we'd do well do away with it. Where I part ways with the deregulaters is that I would like to see a smaller and more sane replacement.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[MightyMartian]

Which would be fine if it was just morons poisoning themselves, but they're poisoning small children, and that's the chief problem here.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[sjames]

Because if recent history is a guide, they'll make another power grab and grant someone an exclusive on drinking water which will then be a bargain at the low-low price of $100/liter.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[AaronW]

I watched a documentary (Frontline) discussing how a bad strain of Samnoinella Heidelberg was being distributed by Foster Farms chickens and how powerless the FDA was to put an end to it. Basically the FDA is powerless unless they can prove a smoking gun. Despite thousands of people getting sick and them tracking it down to certain farms they could do nothing until one person who got sick happened to have another batch of chicken from the same lot that they froze. It took something like 18 months and the FDA could not force Foster Farms to clean up its act because of how hamstrung it is, which is why you usually hear that the recalls are "voluntary" by the manufacturers.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Bruce Perens]

The problem is that you are still thinking of facts as "true" or "false". And obviously this has been popular since the Renaissance. But we are now in the Age of Alternative Facts, and if someone disputes the efficacy of a quack product, they can be debunked using ad hominem arguments without reference to factual information. The framework of law in which you live now works this way, better get with the program!

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[PCM2]

There are over 7 billion people on this planet, we can afford to lose a few, especially ones as dumb as this.

Ignoring for now the blatantly sociopathic nature of your comments, shouldn't it be the stupid person who suffers, and not the helpless child who depends upon that person for health care? Maybe the child isn't as stupid as the parent?

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually i thought you were going here:
Which would be fine if it was just morons taking placebos themselves, but their placebo fed children are being poisoned by a product marketed as medicine, and that's the chief problem here.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

Organic and Natural are absolutely weasel words with no specific definition or context. We've been conditioned to somehow believe that something which is labelled organic or natural is somehow guaranteed to be wholesome and healthy. It is simply not true.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

Die in a fire.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[RobotRunAmok]

It is self-absorbed sociopaths like you that give Nerds a bad name.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[amiga3D]

I see no shortage of dickheads either.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[c]

At this point, it sounds like it's not longer an FDA problem... call it what it is, which is "conspiracy to commit murder" and kick it over to the FBI.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[gweihir]

I'm reminded of an old IRC quote: The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

In principle, I like the idea, but the victims here are not the ones being stupid.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[dbIII]

I doubt most people actually know the true definition of homeopathic

Does it matter since it's all a scam? The problem here is instead of the usual grass clippings the scam artists involved believed their own bullshit and put a real poison in there. Do them for manslaughter like any other poisoners.
They managed to fuck up a placebo. How fucked up is that?

Re: I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm trying to build a house on land that has a creek. I can tell you first hand that our government has WAY too many regulations.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[ClickOnThis]

I see no child shortage.

The issue is not about a shortage of children. It's about an endangerment of children.

People who endanger children should have their children taken away from them, and be put in jail. Which, indirectly, was the GP's point.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it matter since it's all a scam?

Yes, because if you don't explain why, many people will just ignore what you say as background noise, or worse, assume you've been influenced by some other scam trying to undermine what they think works. People are more likely to believe something is a scam if they decided that themselves.

They managed to fuck up a placebo. How fucked up is that?

This shouldn't be that surprising, that someone accidentally didn't dilute things enough. Also, it shouldn't be surprising that when something requires multiple dilutions, there is going to be someone who cuts corners and does a single dilution. Or that someone might try to put a cheap active ingredient in there to help convince people something is happening.

There are products out there labeled as homeopathic and with a dosage of "1D"... which is a 10:1 dilution. At that point, there can be a significant amount of stuff. I've mentioned this before in previous homeopathy stories, and get nothing but, "But that is impossible, that is not how homeopathy is supposed to work." It doesn't matter how something is supposed to work, people will find ways to screw it up, whether intentionally or not.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[drinkypoo]

Ignoring for now the blatantly sociopathic nature of your comments, shouldn't it be the stupid person who suffers, and not the helpless child who depends upon that person for health care? Maybe the child isn't as stupid as the parent?

Odds are good that if the parent is a stupid asshole who shits all over everything, the child will be as well. While there is certainly the risk you describe, we are well over Earth's carrying capacity given our current behavior and I'm not willing to do anything which prevents stupid people from killing their children.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

They will. It's called a consent degree. If they don't voluntarily cease operations, the FDA will arrive with armed guards and will arrest the CEO or whoever is in charge of the company.

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/tag/consent-decree/#.WI__jc5yv0o

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[dbIII]

Yes, because if you don't explain why, many people will just ignore what you say as background noise

I'll try again.
When it's a lie does it really matter if it is spelled the wrong way or not?

This stuff is just like a Hollywood idea of Voodoo where it is so obviously fiction that it does not matter at all if someone there is something true about some aspect of Voodoo. If there was some truth that bit has never made it as far as the consumer.

1D"... which is a 10:1 dilution. At that point, there can be a significant amount of stuff.

Indeed, they have managed to royally fuck up a placebo if they do that.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[DivineKnight]

How would you know?

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

There are over 7 billion people on this planet, we can afford to lose a few, especially ones as dumb as this.

The problem, which is obvious to the non-stupid, is that the damage is done to a random sampling of society by stupid people.

Remembering that the posit was "there is no FDA", then the obvious conclusion would be "there is not FDA warnings, or everyone is free to craft fake-FDA warning declaring their products safe". Under a scenario with no FDA warnings, you can't tell truly safe items from truly dangerous ones. Under a scenario where there's no FDA to enforce mis-labeling, all products would label their items as safe, and you can't tell truly safe items from truly dangerous ones. In either scenario, you can't tell truly safe items from truly dangerous ones.

I'm not talking about knowing the difference between lead and toffee. I'm talking about the difference between toffee with lead in it and toffee without. No FDA means you can't tell if the contents of similar products are contaminated with lethal substances. There is no way that intelligence would factor in to the scenario, as there is no input an intelligent person would be able to rely upon to tell the difference.

Just to drive the point home, you wouldn't even have to label your stuff homeopathic if the FDA didn't provide an exemption for homeopathic items under the guise of the current "exception clauses" to the FDA.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[MightyMartian]

Children are not chattel, they are not property. Society and the law bequeath upon parents the right to raise their offspring, and gives them wide, but not infinite latitude in how that is done. Minors are still citizens, and still enjoy constitutional rights, and that means a parent has absolutely no right to cause their child injury, or more to the point, kill them, whether that be intentionally, or due to the parents' belief in some medical quackery. You hurt or kill your child by feeding them poisons, you are a killer, at the very least guilty of manslaughter.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[MightyMartian]

So is that the explanation for your appallingly poor grasp of genetics?

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[rtb61]

If the product you are making is just a scam and you know, spending any of your profits on quality control is basically just throwing it away. That is the nature of the manufacturers and distributors of the product. Do the minimum amount to squeeze by the law and be ready to jump ship to a tax haven when it all blows up, after a trail of death. Extend the whole process out by paying lobbyists to pay off politicians, to get them to turn a blind eye in your direction. Basic US business practice, it's like modern economics 101.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not how it works, there are people who had parents who couldn't read. Does that mean the children won't be able to read? The answer is no, a person has the potential to surpass their parents knowledge. If we were all limited by what our parents were able to learn, then we wouldn't be where we are today and would all still live in caves.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens when a teacher gives this to your child, should the world be unlucky enough to suffer the indignity of you breeding? I mean, obviously, by your standards we can afford to lose a few destined to be indoctrinated to this lowest form of callous libertarian lunacy, but won't you feel differently? Or are you too self-interested to care?

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Dog-Cow]

How, exactly, do you have non-Governmental version of the FDA that is effective without Government intervention?

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

In principle, I like the idea, but the victims here are not the ones being stupid.

Huh?
The manufacturer is evil, but not stupid.
The victims are people who thinks that homeopathy is anything but a scam so they are pretty stupid.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[fredgiblet]

The victims are their children, who have no choice in the matter.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[james_gnz]

In principle, I like the idea, but the victims here are not the ones being stupid.

The victims are people who thinks that homeopathy is anything but a scam so they are pretty stupid.

From the original submission: "the Food and Drug Administration was investigating homeopathic teething gels and tablets, which may have been improperly diluted, thus causing serious harm to infants. The FDA investigated 10 infant deaths and more than 400 reports of seizures, fever, and vomiting". I think the victims referred to above were the infants.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[sjames]

Where did you get the idea I wanted a non-government replacement?

I just want a total replacement with an iron-clad charter.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

I see no child shortage.

A shortage of you would go down pretty smooth.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[MrL0G1C]

It doesn't actually say those deaths are due to homeopathic remedies as far as I can tell.

Also there is no mention of how much deadly nightshade is in the homeopathic pills, one would expect there to be inconsequential amounts due to the way homeopathic pills are made.

The article is somewhat useless without this information. And the article and summary are potentially very misleading but we can't actually tell because they both lack important details.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[AmiMoJo]

It was probably deliberate. Some homeopathic companies have been trying to sneak small amounts of actual medicine into their bottled water products, because then they might actually have some tiny effect and people might keep buying them. The health benefits of drinking more water alone are not enough to maximize profits.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you vote for our current president Steve Bannon? You seem like the type of crackpot that would.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[radl33t]

the important part is that we let someone make money!

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[houghi]

Same with traffic laws. Remove them.and in just a few generations you will have either drivers who can swerve around people or people who can jump away from cars fast enough. Or perhaps both.
All these laws are like patent laws. Nice on a short term basis, but they are holding us back in the long run.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[N3wsByt3]

True the parent poster shows little empathy, but, rationally speaking, he's not entirely wrong. Stupidity is partially hereditary, and partially upbringing.. in case of kids growing up from/by stupid parents, there is a considerable likelihood they will act as stupid as their parents, thus. From a rational/biological stance, one can argue that self-elimination by poisoning themselves or their children (or by dying from diseases because they believe homeopathy is more effective) will eliminate the problem in the long term. It's self-rectifying, in a sense, IF we let those people experience the consequences of their own behavior.

The problem lays entirely in the domain of ethics and morality, thus, but the logic in itself is irrefutable. From a libertarian stance (which I take) I don't adhere to such a policy because, while it's likely, there is also always a percentage of kids who will be smarter than their parents, either through mutation, lucky gene-mix, or (external) education. It doesn't change the statistics, but it does make it less applicable on individual cases, and individuality and free will are libertarian concepts by excellence.

But everything has its limits, and I would have far less problems if we let the adults who are (have proven to be) that stupid die off. I'm not a fan of protecting people against their own stupidity, even after they don't listen when you explained and warned them. As other posters say, this can even be detrimental to others too, as with vaccines. If enough do it (vaccinate), the total population gets a benefit from it, but if enough stupid parents don't do it, you loose that 'herd'-immunity, because the disease *can* propagate successfully, then.

If only homeopathic-adepts would be consistent and only take their miracle cure in all cases, or the doctors/hospitals only would subscribe homeopathic 'medicine' to adepts of homeopathy, things would resolve itself after even a few generations. As it is now, we perpetuate it and let stupidity thrive. And as a whole, stupid parents also have a higher likelihood to have more children, so, indeed, we create more and more stupidity in the gene-pool of the human race. I think there is a scientific paper from Iceland which demonstrated that, recently. It's still true education influences (the lack of) stupidity far more than genes on itself, but still, there *is* an effect.

So I agree with the ethical problem it poses when it's administered to small children who haven't got the possibility to refuse, but I'm also aware the parent poster was basically right in his reasoning.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Translation Error]

They've announced they've discontinued sale of the product in the US, but they aren't pulling the product from store shelves. There was no mention about discontinuing sale in Canada and Australia, where they also operate, but the 'where to buy' page on their site does not list the teething gel/tablets in the drop down list of products you can search for in those countries.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Feds were to "shut down" as you suggest any company whose products purportedly caused 10 deaths then there would be ZERO pharmaceuticals left in existence.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[drinkypoo]

That's not how it works, there are people who had parents who couldn't read. Does that mean the children won't be able to read?

It doesn't mean they won't, however...

The answer is no, a person has the potential to surpass their parents knowledge.

The potential, sure. Now, look around. How many people are living up to their potential?

If we were all limited by what our parents were able to learn, then we wouldn't be where we are today and would all still live in caves.

And yet, throughout history the best predictor of success was who your parents were. Today it's your social status. In prehistoric times it was more based on genetics, but social status still determined who ate best.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[The-Ixian]

but from what I've heard there's been some deaths (10?). Why the hell don't we give our FDA enough power to shut this company down?

Oh no you don't. Not in Trump's America. We are going to drain the swamp and get rid of these useless government agencies!

Personal responsibility! Buyer beware! These are the battle cries of the new corporate world order.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[The-Ixian]

Wholesome and healthy probably not. But the Organic label can, at least mean a difference in process and/or source material.

I don't buy organic for the sake of organic labels, but I do find that some organic labeled food products taste better than the one's that don't.

Example: Silk's Organic unsweetened soy milk tastes better than even Silk's own non-organic labeled products.

Organic labeled non-food items are just hogwash though.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember my American bothers and sisters, Trump kills your babies! ;)

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[driblio]

While organic food may not necessarily be more healthy, that's not necessarily the point.

It is better for the environment, and it does define higher welfare standards for animals- that's my reason for eating only organic certified meat. It has a very specific definition, and organic farms are tested regular to make sure they are meeting the standards (by the soil Association in the UK).

https://www.soilassociation.or...

Short of knowing your farmer or growing your own, it's your best bet for buying 'real' food. Scepticism is good, but know your stuff, as don't spread FUD.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[jjbenz]

Obviously you don't have children you shithead.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[N3wsByt3]

"The problem, which is obvious to the non-stupid, is that the damage is done to a random sampling of society by stupid people."

Not entirely. Stupidity is also partially hereditary, so in any given sample, kids of stupid parents will be more likely to be stupid themselves, than kids from two intelligent parents.

It's true that other factors, like education, makes has a larger influence on it, but still, one can't actually say it's a totally random sample. Stupid parents, as a whole, are also more likely to be stupid in different domains - such as having a more rational approach in childrearing. Thus, they tend to have more kids than intelligent people. And those kids tend to be more stupid in their turn, and do the same themselves. As said, mostly by example, but ALSO by genes.

So, no, it's not a completely random sample.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

Every time someone suggests giving the FDA some teeth, mysterious beings... we'll call them "legal entities", suddenly have a billion and one reasons (many of which are actually bills of currency) why this is not only the worst idea in the world, but also communist, left-wing, pro-terrorism, anti-life, anti-small-business, anti-american, baby-hating, socialist and freedom-destroying.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

GP isn't necessarily making a genetic argument there. Correlation is not causation and all that, but it does seem that most of the children of selfish assholes become selfish assholes too. It is probably more the way they are raised than their genetics.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[gweihir]

Aehm, yes? Is this not obvious? Sure, the parents are secondary victims, and the did it to themselves, but I cannot see any way the children are responsible for their death or illness here.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[gweihir]

So you think these teething children, being between 4 month and 3 years old "think that homeopathy is anything but a scam so they are pretty stupid"? How does that work? Or do you think children and their parents are one entity and do not deserve to be seen separately?

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[james_gnz]

I think the victims referred to above were the infants.

Is this not obvious?

Yes, I think you're right, for anyone who remembered the submission referred to harm to infants. I'd guess the AC forgot this detail while reading the comments. (This seems to me the most likely way they could misunderstand your post.) I guess the important part of my post was the reference to the submission. The comment "I think the victims referred to above were the infants." was pretty self evident, I guess.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut a company down for 10 deaths? How many deaths have alcoholic drinks caused? How many alcoholic beverage companies have been shutdown over the hundred's of thousands of deaths they have caused? None. Same can be said for the tobacco companies.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[RockDoctor]

In the case at hand, the solution still contained traces of belladonna. How in the hell did this get screwed up?

That's not hard to understand.

To make the preparation you have to prepare a mix of the symptom-mimicking material ("deadly nightshade", "belladonna", or the poison atropine depending on their method - all terms refer to the same substance) and water. Therefore, at some point in your factory you have to have the hazardous substance.

Then, someone introduced an early dilution of the active substance into a late stage of the process (eg by re-using an un-washed early-stage vessel later into the process - an utter failure of process control, which is why preparation of pharmaceuticals is subject to stringent regulation which does not seem to apply to the homeopathic industry) ; or some how the raw active substance got into the final stage of process (same comments). I've seen people make exactly the same errors preparing lab reagents in a rock-testing lab, and had to explain the error in nit-picking detail until they finally understood where they'd fucked up. This is called "staff training" ; it costs money, one way or another.

In short, it's an utter breakdown of laboratory practice and management. I don't know American regulations, but there are strict qualification requirements for working in pharmaceutical preparation labs in Europe. I would hazard a guess that exposing their preparation labs to this level of management would reduce the profit margins of the homeopathy companies. So they fight back.

Just to put things into context, another material present in every homeopathic preparation lab, and therefore capable of being introduced into the final product, given this evidence of laboratory incompetence, are fecal bacteria. Even if their staff wash their hands after wiping shit off their hairy rings, they will (not "may" ; "will") still have fecal bacteria on their hands. Since they can't manage basic dilution and process control, then I'd be astonished if their product didn't have shit in it on a routine basis. Which is another can of worms that the companies don't want to open.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[RockDoctor]

Which would be fine if it was just morons poisoning themselves, but they're poisoning small children, and that's the chief problem here.

But since those children are motly (70-90% numbers vary with social details) are the genetic offspring of the morons who are bringing them up and poisoning them, that''s less of a concern. Killing the offspring of morons is little different from killing the parents. And as this homeopathic company is showing, seems less likely to lead to push-back.

Re:I know it's fun to make fun of Homeopathy

[RockDoctor]

No, they should be put into jail with their children. Only after release from jail should they be separated from the children.

It's really really important to educate these children that their parents were dickheads, and that they cannot trust the pronouncements of authority.

Homeopathy is a scam

[surfdaddy]

It is a grandfathered legality from the days before the FDA. Homeopathic "drugs" have not been through clinical trials or been shown to be efficacious. They are based on a principle that somehow if you have a substance you can dilute it until perhaps only a couple of MOLECULES in your liquid will somehow cure your problem.

  The FDA should shut down this sham of a company once and for all.

Re:Homeopathy is a scam

[gweihir]

Actually, the problem here is shoddy manufacturing in conflict with homeopathic principles. I do not defend their scam, but the same problem, say, in Paracetamol, would also have killed people. Hence these people are guilty, both by homeopathic standards and by sane standards.

Re:Homeopathy is a scam

[ray-auch]

It is a grandfathered legality from the days before the FDA. Homeopathic "drugs" have not been through clinical trials or been shown to be efficacious. They are based on a principle that somehow if you have a substance you can dilute it until perhaps only a couple of MOLECULES in your liquid will somehow cure your problem.

  The FDA should shut down this sham of a company once and for all.

Can't have it both ways - if the stuff is diluted so much that there is nothing there, how the f**k can it be dangerous and need to be recalled?
The reason the FDA can't shut homeopathy down is they are selling nothing but sugar pills, any effects or side effects would be the same with a placebo.

The _only_ danger in homeopathy is people stupidly not getting proper medical treatment because they are using it - will you can't regulate away every form of stupid. Note that you can, and they do, shutdown any practitioners who advise patients to not have effective medical treatment and to use snake oil instead.

There are two possibilities in this case:
1. it's _not_ homeopathy and actually has some active ingredient in it, and it's not a nice one
2. it is homeopathy and therefore it doesn't have any active ingredient in it and therefore it is _not_ dangerous (or effective)

It _cannot_ be both homeopathic and dangerous.

Re: Homeopathy is a scam

[Hognoxious]

aleopathic

Clearly you're very knowledgeable about these matters.

Re: Homeopathy is a scam

[Bob the Super Hamste]

I believe aleopathic is a new synonym for placebo.

Re:Homeopathy is a scam

[SuiteSisterMary]

if the stuff is diluted so much that there is nothing there, how the f**k can it be dangerous and need to be recalled?

From the FUCKING SUMMARY:

which may have been improperly diluted

There is the third possibility in this case: it is homeopathy, intended to be diluted, with a manufacturing defect.

Re:Homeopathy is a scam

[Anonymous Coward]

No

3. It can be labeled homeopathic AND be dangerous due to poor manufacturing standards.

Re:Homeopathy is a scam

[ray-auch]

> There is the third possibility in this case: it is homeopathy, intended to be diluted, with a manufacturing defect.

If there is any active ingredient in it, it is not homeopathy, it is drugs. The FDA can then shut them down as a drugs manufacturer making stuff that has not gone through testing and approval. Homeopathy doesn't need testing and approval because there is no active ingredient in it, drugs do, because there is.

Manufacturing defect? - Homeopathy's manufacturing process is defective by design, the entire point is to remove anything that could possibly have any effect.

Re:Homeopathy is a scam

[surfdaddy]

Because the THEORY of homeopathy is the dilution. But the board of homeopathy can ok products that don't follow that. For example Zicam for colds was found to contain enough Zinc to be damaging to nasal passages. And regarding the comment ....well then it is a drug. >> They are ALL drugs since by definition a drug is a material that claimes to cure or treat any disease. So regardless of contents of the product, it's a drug when you advertise it that way. And that means it falls into FDA jurisdiction.

Re:Homeopathy is a scam

[SuiteSisterMary]

Agreed completely; just pointing out that if somebody makes a go at honestly making a 'homeopathic' solution, and fucks up the dilution process, well, you get poison instead of distilled water.

Hyland's teething tablets

[jdavidb]

I am a father of 8, and I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that Hyland's teething tablets are effective, and I want to continue to use them for my baby. From what I have read, the effective ingredient in them is probably the belladonna rather than the homeopathic ingredients, but I am not aware of any alternatives, and as near as I can tell the FDA refuses to actually release their data, which doesn't sound much like science to me. Maybe that has changed.

It's misleading to say that Hyland's won't recall their product - they quit selling in the US months ago thanks to the FDA's pressure. There was a flap several years ago where Hyland's was yanked off of the market because of alleged inconsistent levels of ingredients and that was supposed to have been corrected or the FDA would never have let them back on the market.

I'd like to know if the product is really a problem here when used as directed and what the current consistency of the belladonna levels in the product is, but the FDA doesn't seem to be bending over backwards to provide that information to me. Several times since I became a father, useful medications for children and especially for infants have been pulled off the market simply because of claims that parents are using wrong dosages, and frankly while I wish other parents were literate enough to care for their children, I don't care about that enough to torture my own children by denying them effective medication. If infant tylenol cold and flu hadn't been yanked off the market for these ridiculous reasons years ago, I might give the FDA some more credibility, here. As it is, I see them as people who will willingly take away medicine from my babies, which is a special level of depravity.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[kencurry]

I am a father of 8, and I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that Hyland's teething tablets are effective, and I want to continue to use them for my baby. ...

Um, shouldn't your focus be on contraceptives?

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[MightyMartian]

Translation: I'm a father of 8 abused children, and I am unbelievably evil.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody is taking medicine away from your baby. They're taking away the ability for stupid, uneducated people to poison their babies. Homeopathic products are not medicine. They're junk. Your anecdotal evidence isn't proof of efficacy.

Also, eight children smacks of religious nut to me. Keep it in your pants and use actual medicine for your children.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait... I think you missed something from the article.
"Homeopathy is a pseudoscience that has been squarely debunked"
That's the most important bit.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven't you heard? Every sperm is sacred!

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[mmell]

I have anecdotal evidence that smoking cigarettes is harmless and non-addictive. I've been smoking Lucky Strikes for decades now with no ill effects, and I'm not addicted. I can quit any time I want to - I just don't want to because there are no harmful side effects. Just a cool, smooth smoke that calms my nerves and keeps me on top of my game.

Be Happy . . . Go Lucky!

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[jdavidb]

Homeopathic products are not medicine.

Oh, I see you didn't read my post!

Also, eight children smacks of religious nut to me. Keep it in your pants

Fuck you. :)

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[MightyMartian]

We read your post. You're trying to defend giving your children a toxin, Mr. Christian Anarcho-capitalist...

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[MightyMartian]

There used to be this great Seattle-based comedy show called Almost Live (a sort of low-budget SNL), and they had this really hilarious skit with this tobacco company executive insisting "Smoking is completely safe. Leading chiropractors have found it in fact puts a protective lining on the lungs!"

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[amiga3D]

I've never heard of a child dying from teething pain. They do die from medicine occasionally.

Re: Hyland's teething tablets

[sound vision]

Benadryl (diphenhydramine) works similarly to belladonna. It also has the bonus of being a regulated product, properly labeled, and with a known dosage. Iirc that's 12.5 mg for children's benadryl. How much belladonna is in the hyland product? It probably doesn't say on the box, but it seems like its enough to kill the kids, sometimes.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to continue to use them for my baby

Um, shouldn't your focus be on contraceptives?

he HAD eight. he's down to one now. so whatever he's doing seems to be working... just a little after-the-fact.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[surfdaddy]

Stop selling IS NOT the same as won't recall what is already on the market.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[mrbester]

You could have just fed them raw potato if you felt you needed to dose them with solanine. A lot cheaper and much easier to obtain.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

So you just found out that the active ingredients in the product you are buying is not what the producer claims and the FDA is the depraved one here because you want to keep buying from liars? Aren't you libertarians supposed to correct the market by not purchasing from dishonest companies?

Idiocracy is becoming more of a documentary by each passing year...

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[jdavidb]

One which has been used in herbal medicine for centuries as a pain reliever, muscle relaxer, and anti-inflammatory, and to treat menstrual problems, peptic ulcer disease, histaminic reaction, and motion sickness.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[MightyMartian]

People have used all sorts of things for centuries, that doesn't make them less toxic. You're feeding your children poison. You should be rotting in a jail cell, Mr. Christian Anarcho-capitalist.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[CanadianRealist]

It's misleading to say that Hyland's won't recall their product - they quit selling in the US months ago

Do you have any idea what the word recall actually means? That they have stopped selling the product says absolutely nothing about whether or not they have issued a recall.

The only thing misleading is your statement. I suspect you are either clueless or deliberately confusing the issue. Either way I would not trust any thing else that you say.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[guises]

Er... Um... huh. This is a weird thing to respond to.

I'm not going to do a super long post here, but: "the effective ingredient in them is probably the belladonna rather than the homeopathic ingredients" is wildly off the mark. The point of homeopathic medications is that the active ingredients, including the belladonna, are present in such tiny amounts that they don't do anything. You can put poison in these things because there isn't enough to matter.

This is why the FDA doesn't regulate them: because they don't do anything. This is also why over-the-counter homeopathic remedies for infants weren't removed: because they don't do anything, so they aren't dangerous. In principle you can give your baby as much as you want, because it doesn't matter.

The problem here is a manufacturing defect, some of the pills contain too much poison. When you say that you want to know "what the current consistency of the belladonna levels in the product is" what you're asking is: "What are the odds that my baby will die if I give it some of these pills?" We don't know what the answer to that is, and you may find that frustrating but... what number is low enough for you here? If the FDA comes out and says, "0.0001%" are you going to shrug and say, "That's fine."?

Interestingly, this isn't the first time that this product has been scrutinized by the FDA over this issue. Link.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you a critical thinker?

Do you ask yourself questions like "are my reasons for believing this really good reasons?"

Because "it doesn't seem to have failed for my tiny sample size" is clearly not a good reason. Neither is "my friend used it and got good results." Not when you are talking about medicating a baby.

Science isn't superior because scientists are the ones doing it. Science is superior because it requires compelling evidence. Not anecdotal evidence. Compelling evidence.

The fundamental theory behind homeopathics lacks compelling evidence. This isn't some conspiracy to keep big pharma rich. This is cold, calculated, facts-of-life logic.

And you are seriously missing the mark.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[JMZero]

..but Belladonna is intended to be one of the "homeopathic ingredients" here (along with some other nonsense). From their website:

Calcarea Phosphorica 12X HPUS: teething, dentition
Chamomilla 6X HPUS (Chamomile): for peevishness, restlesness and irritability
Coffea Cruda 6X HPUS: sleeplessness
Belladonna 6X HPUS (0.0000003% Alkaloids, calculated): redness and teething discomfort

To be clear, belladonna seems like a possible legitimate treatment (it does deaden nerves) if you got a real dose - but probably isn't effective at the intended concentration (nor is it probably a great idea in any case... I mean, opium would probably deal with teething pain too, but your pharmacist is hardly going to give it to your for teething). So if the gel is ever doing anything (via the actual effects of belladonna, rather than the backwards magic effect of removing all of the belladonna), that itself is evidence that they've screwed up their process and are getting more in than they meant to. Which isn't what you want to hear when the ingredient in question is straight-up-good-way-to-murder-someone poison.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[HornWumpus]

Make sure you bleed them regularly, to keep their humors in balance and drain off toxic blood.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[ilsaloving]

I am a father of 8, and I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that Hyland's teething tablets are effective, and I want to continue to use them for my baby. From what I have read, the effective ingredient in them is probably the belladonna rather than the homeopathic ingredients, but I am not aware of any alternatives, and as near as I can tell the FDA refuses to actually release their data, which doesn't sound much like science to me

The fact that you are even using products like this, and arn't "aware of any alternatives", make it very clear that you closed the door on science a very long time ago. I wouldn't be surprised if you said you took your kid to a witchdoctor, or a priest to bless the demons away. There's literally no difference between that and homeopathy. (Hint: There's only one homeopathic ingredient: magic water)

There are plenty of legitimate, PROVEN, regulated products out there that help with teething, among other baby needs. And no, I'm not going to google them for you because I'd just be wasting my time. You would have found them yourself a long time ago if you weren't so busy drinking the koolaid.

I don't expect to change your mind. Mostly I'm just venting because articles like this makes my blood boil. Not just the fact that these kinds of problems exist, but the fact that they occur with such frustrating regularity. People are getting themselves and their kids maimed and murdered because they think they know better than literally hundreds of years of painstakingly collected scientific achievement and knowledge.

Re: Hyland's teething tablets

[jdavidb]

How much belladonna is in the hyland product? It probably doesn't say on the box, but it seems like its enough to kill the kids, sometimes.

The FDA apparently knows and isn't telling.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[jdavidb]

Science is superior because it requires compelling evidence. Not anecdotal evidence. Compelling evidence.

Okay, the FDA needs to release their evidence.

The fundamental theory behind homeopathics lacks compelling evidence.

I know that, and I don't believe in homeopathy, so I'm not sure why you're saying it.

This isn't some conspiracy to keep big pharma rich.

And I never said anything of the sort. You seem to be assuming a lot of things.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[jdavidb]

I'm not aware of any alternative belladonna treatments. I didn't intend to sound like I was saying I'm not aware of any alternative treatments at all.

I don't expect to change your mind. Mostly I'm just venting because articles like this makes my blood boil

We all get less rational when we get like that.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[jdavidb]

So you just found out that the active ingredients in the product you are buying is not what the producer claims

No, I have known for two decades that homeopathy doesn't work, so I knew all along it wasn't the homeopathic ingredients they list that was doing the work.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Except the product in question contains unregulated doses. The dose makes the poison.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[brantondaveperson]

probably the belladonna rather than the homeopathic ingredients

But I thought that the belladonna was the homeopathic ingredient - which is to say the ingredient that's present in homeopathic quantities - which is to say not present at all. Except that it was present, because they did the dilution wrong, and hence you end up with a product with belladonna in it that you proceed to place in your child's mouth.

Also, I'm very far from convinced that teething is even really a thing. Kids get grouchy and irritable for many, many reasons, and I don't know if there's any actual evidence for any teething pain. There's certainly no evidence for any teething products being effective. I mean, some people hang amber necklaces around their kid's necks and claim that it reduces teething symptoms. If anything ever suggested 'no real problem here', then that's it.

If infant tylenol cold and flu hadn't been yanked off the market....

Your FDA is weird. They can't ban 'medicines' that actually contain poisons, but they can ban paracetamol (which is what the rest of the planet calls tylenol). I notice that it's also not possible to get Kinder Surprise chocolate eggs either. Added to which, you currently have a certifiable lunatic in charge. You should just put up a big "do not visit" sign, maybe hang it off The Statue of Liberty or something.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you looking for something else that contains Belladonna?
Because if you are you are saying you are willing to risk your children's live to relieve teething pain.

Or are you looking for and alternative teething gel?
If yes then go ask the local pharmacist or use google as plenty of non-poisonous alternatives exist.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Biogoly]

"From what I have read, the effective ingredient in them is probably the belladonna rather than the homeopathic ingredients..." It sounds like you might have some confusion about what a homeopathic medication actually is and perhaps how it's supposed to work. You might want to Google that... Anywho, the homeopathic meds consist of: a sugar (maybe dextrose, sucrose, or lactose), a binder to hold it together in a tablet form, and a dilution (your "effective" ingredient). I'm not going to go into the philosophy, but basically the more diluted the product the more potent it is supposed to be (makes sense right?), so you will see bottles that say x60 or x400 etc, which is the number of 10 fold dilutions the ingredient has gone under. So, a "high potency" x400 dilution would have 1x10^-400 parts of active ingredient left. Just so you know, the entire observable universe, all the billions (trillions?) of galaxies contain maybe upwards of 1x10^82 atoms total...just let that sink in a minute. The only belladonna that could get into these tablets at that level of dilution is if it randomly waft into the factory from some nightshade plants from outside. This is the FDA's issue, that the product had detectable levels of belladonna when (if hyland was following their dilution protocol) shouldn't have had any at all..

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[lgw]

All medicines are poisons. The difference is dosage. When the FDA yanks normal cold products for infants because parents can't get the dosage right, it's a legitimate discussion.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. You're wrong... so wrong. Everybody knows rubbing chilli in your eyes is the best provider of pain relief. I do it for all 12 of my children and it's amazing to see the joy on their faces, it literally brings them to tears. I don't care what those crazy scien-m-tists says. I got all the proof I need.

Re: Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Several serious problems here.

First you have 8 children. To each their own, but the societal pressures and high infant mortality of the past are largely gone unless you live in an extremely poor underdeveloped area, so your reasons for this are likely to influence your overall thinking.

Second, you obviously have no idea what homeopathy is or means. It's supposed to be diluted to such an extreme level that only a "memory" of the therapeutic substance remains. This is obviously hogwash, but the fact remains that there shouldn't be any belladonna left in the mix you are buying. So any anecdotal evidence of effectiveness is either psychological on your part, or because they weren't diluting it the way they claimed. In one case it should have no effect and in the other it may be dangerous depending on dilution.

Third, you are ignoring the fact that there are a number of approved over the counter remedies for teething that are known to (A) work as claimed and (B) be safe to apply to the inside of an infant's mouth.

Please get your information from reliable sources and try to educate yourself on what is safe. If homeopathy or herbal medicine or whatever really worked as claimed it would just be called "medicine". There is no grand conspiracy to hide the truth about "alternative" medicine. It simply doesn't work, or not as well as modern replacements.

People are pissed at you because most peoples' ethical viewpoint is that children are innocent, and in particular they are dependent on their caretakers to make medical decisions for them. Also, society at large needs to ensure caretakers are responsibly caring for their wards. Consequently, YOU are responsible if using these products causes your children harm.

Please make better decisions for the benefit of your children.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Bleeding males regularly is a documented way of reducing some risks such as heart attacks (due to reducing iron levels). Though the preferred bleeding method is a Red Cross donation rather than a slice to the arm.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[gweihir]

He probably is using homeopathic contraceptives...

In all seriousness though, this is not about protecting the children of careful parents. The deaths and sicknesses were probably a combination of overuse and shoddy manufacturing where just one of the two would not have cause it. In litigation-nation, you of course always have to be safe for the dumbest possible customer. In countries with a sane legal system, that problem does not exist. For example, I can still get a package of Paracetamol large enough to be lethal here. Of course the pharmacist will ask me whether I know how to use them and tell me the limit, and the instructions will too, including the warning that more can be lethal. But accidentally taking more is not the manufacturer's responsibility here, and neither is intentionally taking more. In the US, however ...

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[ArylAkamov]

Somebody's upset they aren't getting any

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Bloodletting was also used for centuries, but you don't see that used much these days

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[dbIII]

I notice that it's also not possible to get Kinder Surprise chocolate eggs either

That's a patent thing - utterly stupid but nothing to do with the FDA. The short story is another company got the US patent for toys inside chocolate despite such things being available for many years.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

All medicines are poisons.

Exactly.

Re: Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Google 'Mrs. Winslow's Soothing Syrup.'

It was a teething remedy. It killed babies. And the outcry over it was one of the primary drivers behind the creation of the FDA in the first place.

Re: Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they don't, because the supplements/natural "remedy"/homeopathy industries were deregulated in the 90's, and now they can put whatever the hell they want in their products and make any claim as to their efficacy, as long as they say their statements haven't been evaluated by the FDA.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[LordKronos]

Several times since I became a father, useful medications for children and especially for infants have been pulled off the market simply because of claims that parents are using wrong dosages...If infant tylenol cold and flu hadn't been yanked off the market for these ridiculous reasons years ago

I'm not sure what this "infant tylenol cold and flu" that you speak of is. I've never heard of it, and Google can't seem to find anything about it either.

What I do know is, when my first daughter (now 6 yo) was born we bought some Tylenol Infant concentrated drops. They were great since (like many kids) she didn't want to cooperate in taking her medicine. A few years later when it expired my wife went and bought some more. When I went to give it, I realized the dosage was way different and required giving her a ton more liquid to swallow. That sucked, since she was so uncooperative. I drove to like 10 different stores trying to find that same stuff before doing a google search. I was furious to discover that it was discontinued.

Then I thought a bit more about it. My wife bought the regular stuff thinking it was the same as the concentrated stuff. What if it had gone the other way...we started with the regular and then bought the concentrated accidentally. I always check the labels and dosages on kids stuff just to be 100% certain, but I'm extremely cautious. I bet a lot of people don't. Most people memorize dosages of stuff and just go by what they know. When I need to take a tylenol or my wife needs a benedryl, we don't check the labels for the proper dose. We know what the dose is and just take it. Most people do the same. And it totally wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people carry that habit over to their kids.

Acetaminophen is dangerous if not dosed properly (which is why, amusingly enough, the bottle of Kirkland brand acetaminophen that Costco sells says something like "this product contains acetaminophen" on the cap) . And I think it's a good idea removing the ability for someone to accidentally give their kid 2.5x the intended dosage, even if that means you now have to endure the more difficult task of getting them to swallow a greater quantity of it.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[HornWumpus]

Male children?

Re: Hyland's teething tablets

[guruevi]

According to the report the product had very inconsistent amounts of the deadly nightshade. Most tablets had amounts that couldn't even be measured which is the safe standard, others had over a thousand nanograms of the belladonna atropine (one of it's alkaloids) and several hundreds of nanograms of the scopolamine.

Given that for adults the "prescribed" levels are like 0.05g of the leaves (which only contain ~1% of the atropine by weight) for a psychoactive effect, you could consider that these are potentially lethal to infants.

Re: Hyland's teething tablets

[amiga3D]

I know if I bought something that was supposed to help my child and it killed them there would be someone else dying soon afterwards.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

It was also used for centuries as a poison. For reference keep reading your own Wikipedia citation.

This issue here is that the company is having production issues. Statistically a homeopathic 'product' shouldn't have ANY active ingredient if diluted properly. The fact that sometimes enough of the ingredient is making through the process to cause harm to children makes it unsafe and a responsible company would recall immediately.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[DivineKnight]

Finally, a chance to use my alchemy toolkit.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming that you are not a troll, you may be right; but, you are probably right for all the wrong reasons.

Any number of things might make the teething tablets effective, which don't have anything to do with the homeopathic additions. The hardness of the tablet, the fillers. If the tablet is taken dissolved in water, the water might be the soothing agent. Tablets typically contain sugar, the surprise of a sweet treat might sooth the child. The expression of expectation on your face when giving the tablet to your child might have the same effect as no tablet at all.

Basically, you are right in your observation that the child is subdued, but you are likely wrong in your conclusion that the homeopathic inclusion in the tablet is the causative agent for the subduing. You haven't done a study, or even attempted a blind study, much less a double-blind study across a diverse population of participants.

In short, you know that what you did seems to have soothed your child, but you really don't even know what you did. You might be temporarily poisoning your child into submission, and just not poisoning them enough to do noticeable long term harm.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you give your wife liquid mercury to put in her eyes for her daily beauty routine.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Mashiki]

I mean, opium would probably deal with teething pain too, but your pharmacist is hardly going to give it to your for teething).

Here in North America, growing your own in your garden and giving babies "poppy water" was very common right up until the 1970's for teething.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope for your childrens sake you have a serious fatal accident. It is not right that such child abuse is permitted to continue unchecked, they would be better off without you.

Re: Hyland's teething tablets

[gravewax]

No the FDA found that no one knows as each tablet can differ wildly. thus the huge danger.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Mercury (cinnabar) has also been used in herbal/chinese medicine for centuries, what was your point exactly?

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[serviscope_minor]

Um, shouldn't your focus be on contraceptives?

He's feeding deadly nightshade tablets to his kids. The problem will sort itself out.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[serviscope_minor]

The difference is dosage. When the FDA yanks normal cold products for infants because parents can't get the dosage right, it's a legitimate discussion.

I think the FDA should simply declare how the world ought to be, rather than regulate the world how it actually is.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Richard_at_work]

Actually, its not a patent thing, Kinder Surprise are banned under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, which bans items which have a "non-nutritive object" where said object is non-functional - mainly for choking reasons.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Bob the Super Hamste]

If they are unlucky enough to have hemochromatosis then yes. Even for people who have high but not quite high enough iron levels and a genetic predisposition to it it is still highly recommended that they donate blood to keep their iron levels in check. If your iron levels are too high then blood banks can't use your blood. Yes I fall in the latter group and I regularly give blood and have since I was 17. At the beginning of every other month so it is easy to remember. As an added benefit I am helping to keep up the supplies of O- blood which is always in short supply.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Bob the Super Hamste]

So you are saying an effective treatment would be to just feed the kid some lemon poppy seed muffins then.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[mjwx]

I am a father of 8, and I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that Hyland's teething tablets are effective, and I want to continue to use them for my baby. ...

Um, shouldn't your focus be on contraceptives?

He's a homeopathic father of 8, I'm sure his surviving child will turn out just fine.

Re: Hyland's teething tablets

[nedlohs]

Just because you can't read doesn't mean the FDA isn't telling.

They released their numbers, they aren't very useful since they varied widely within the same bottle and hence tell you next to nothing about any individual tablet.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

legitimate comparison would be if the FDA yanked normal medicine *if it contained a differeent dose to that stated*. Nothing to do with how much the parents give a child:

"...the FDA said it had found inconsistent amounts of belladonna in Hyland's products. Some of the amounts were "far exceeding" what was intended."

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[N3wsByt3]

There you go, this is a prime example of what I described earlier: someone who we should let remove himself from the genepool. And just as I predicted, when one is stupid in one domain, one is more likely to be stupid in other domains too, and stupid parents have the tendency to have more kids than intelligent parents. And lo and behold; it is thus.

It's difficult for me to say the kids should be the dupe of your behavior and attitude, but YOU certainly should. Please refrain from using ordinary medicine AT ALL, and solely use homeopathic 'medicine' exclusively, in all cases. that way, you're more prone to remove yourself from the genepool than people who aren't as stupid. The deplorable thing here is, that most of your 8 children have a high likelihood of adapting your stupidity as well.

I actually hope you ARE a troll, like the reputation indicates, because if you're not, it's really infuriating. Homeopathy DOES NOT work. You do not have more effect from it than from a placebo. At most, you endanger your kids by giving them placebo's when they would need actual medicine, and at worst you poison them when homeopathy is done wrong, like in this case. For the latter, you are right we don't have all the info. But for the former, we already know it doesn't work, and can't work, with the huge dilutions we're talking about. you have to be more lucky than winning the jackpot of the lottery to find even ONE working molecule in a homeopathic substance. what do you not understand about this?

And since you refuse to understand it, I have no problems with you taking some homeopathic cure against a deadly disease, so you remove yourself from the genepool. Idem for you children when and once they grow up to be adults, and if they also wallow in same stupidity. It will seem strange to say this, but this is not personal; it's just that I'm of the opinion people should live with the consequences of their own stupidity. I'm sure you agree to that principle, even if you're convinced that it doesn't apply to you, right?

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[N3wsByt3]

All people exhibit some level of stupidity now and then too. The difference is dosage as well...

And the intelligence of homeopathy-adepts is so hugely diluted that there is almost no brain-molecule to be found anymore, alas.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[The-Ixian]

I think Hyland brand paint chips with a Homeopathic amount of lead will do just fine as a substitute for your babies.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[JMZero]

Lol - I didn't know that. Certainly makes sense that it would work. Probably would work even better mixed in with some booze. Or, hell, I don't know, uh, coca leaves and mercury.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Mashiki]

Content is too low to be effective. The kid would have to eat a lot of poppy seed muffins for that to work. Remember that when it shows up in tests, it's registering as a trace amount.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Mashiki]

Really? Find someone over the age of 70 and they'll tell you all about it. Also using a 1/4 shot of gin(or rum whichever was cheaper) was used quite often as well, usually mixed in with their milk. That was very common in poor neighborhoods where they couldn't afford pain medicines, but alcohol could be bought cheaply or made at home. Same reason why people used to grow opium here in North America, the cost of prescription drugs for pain was outside the scope of many people to pay for. And it could also be traded for food staples when times were tough.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

If infant tylenol cold and flu hadn't been yanked off the market for these ridiculous reasons years ago, I might give the FDA some more credibility, here. As it is, I see them as people who will willingly take away medicine from my babies, which is a special level of depravity.

No kids here so I had to look up why infant Tylenol (drops only) were discontinued in the US, found the answer within 30 seconds.

"Currently, families are able to buy more than one concentration of single-ingredient pediatric liquid acetaminophen medicines."
http://www.webmd.com/children/news/20110506/otc-industry-will-discontinue-infant-acetaminophen-drops

Multiple products on a shelf, with different concentrations and dosage requirements and tiny people with no body mass, a recipe for possible over dosage if you didn't read the package carefully each time (suppose your spouse picked up a stronger concentration of the same brand product by mistake when refilling, these are OTC after all).

Here in Canada we can still get the drops according to Tylenol's website and below is the dosage chart comparing the different children's options.
https://www.tylenol.ca/children/safety-dosing/dosing-chart-infants-children

5 drops per day is the maximum dosage, SHAKE WELL BEFORE USE (their caps, not mine), dose only with syringe.

So it appears there was a lot of room for parents to make mistakes and little room for error in protecting those tiny livers and the FDA did what they were created to do.

Everyone likes to bash government agencies for interfering in our lives, but use your imagination to picture what it would be like to live in an unregulated pharmaceutical market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elixir_sulfanilamide
"The owner of the company, when pressed to admit some measure of culpability, infamously answered, 'We have been supplying a legitimate professional demand and not once could have foreseen the unlooked-for results. I do not feel that there was any responsibility on our part.'"

I bet we would see quotes to that effect every month if companies could still market cure-alls to us, because people don't mind taking statements at face value these days....

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Well you are less rational then even the spit foamers commenting here. Stop for a second... you want to give your kids a very deadly poison for teething even though there are safer and more effective alternatives available.

I could even look the other way on a finger dipped in whiskey and rubbed on the gums, I can't look away from you wanting to feed your kids belladonna. You are seemingly willingly misinformed. I hope your kids survive their childhood.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[JMZero]

My area (southern Alberta, Canada) and family have their own weird cultural stuff going on, so I'm sure there's lots of stuff like this that's common elsewhere, but that I haven't run into. Anywho, interesting stuff.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess diluting the sperm until it's a 300X homeopathic solution before putting it in the wife *would* be a very effective contraceptive, though.

On the other hand, if she's been using homeopathy on the pill instead....

Re: Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

Given it's the FDA, chances are they are barred from telling, and would be held criminally responsible for disseminating proprietary information if they dared.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[omnichad]

Also, I'm very far from convinced that teething is even really a thing.

Really? You don't remember when your permanent teeth grew in? Wisdom teeth? That doesn't mean there's an effective treatment (still tearing through flesh to erupt), but the pain is definitely real.

Also, fever is a scientifically measurable symptom of teething.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[lgw]

Well, what's the right thing to do with perfectly effective medicines that are perfectly safe at the listed dosage? I think moving them to OTC (no prescription needed) is probably best, but consumer awareness of such products is low.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a father of 8, and I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that Hyland's teething tablets are effective, and I want to continue to use them for my baby.

My wife and I used Hyland's teething tablets on our firstborn and it was very effective. Our son didn't act drugged, plus stopped complaining about the pain caused by cutting teeth. Our second son is cutting teeth, but we've stayed away from Hyland's teething tablets until more information on this FDA study is available. Inconsistent concentrations are of concern.

From what I have read, the effective ingredient in them is probably the belladonna rather than the homeopathic ingredients, but I am not aware of any alternatives, and as near as I can tell the FDA refuses to actually release their data, which doesn't sound much like science to me. Maybe that has changed.

Actually, the belladonna is the homeopathic ingredient. Belladonna is a poison, but diluted enough it causes numbing. I don't run out to try homeopathic treatments - I believe most are more placebo than anything else - but enough friends gave anecdotes that persuaded us to try this one. The science of the FDA study is inconsistent concentrations in each tablet.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to continue to use them for my baby

Um, shouldn't your focus be on contraceptives?

he HAD eight. he's down to one now. so whatever he's doing seems to be working... just a little after-the-fact.

Babies have a way of growing up. Of his eight children, only one can still be called a baby.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Mashiki]

That I wouldn't doubt. That stuff is in my own backyard and was really common in the upper/lower Canada and maritimes.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[james_gnz]

I am a father of 8, and I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that Hyland's teething tablets are effective, and I want to continue to use them for my baby. From what I have read, the effective ingredient in them is probably the belladonna rather than the homeopathic ingredients, but I am not aware of any alternatives, and as near as I can tell the FDA refuses to actually release their data, which doesn't sound much like science to me. Maybe that has changed.

I think I've found the data here: Laboratory Analysis of Homeopathic Teething Tablets. I think the last table at the bottom of the page is the one of interest--it seems to list the levels of Belladonna in tested Hyland's teething tablets. I don't know how much is okay, from what I can tell, the table seems to indicate that while most of the tablets tested had less than 0.1 nanograms (being listed as "Below Limit of Quantification", with the lowest quantification given being 0.1 nanograms), one bottle had six tablets over 10 nanograms, including one at 53.4 nanograms. It seems to me that this is probably at least 500 times the usual amount.

It's misleading to say that Hyland's won't recall their product - they quit selling in the US months ago thanks to the FDA's pressure.

Yes, although this is clarified later in the submission: "Still, the company discontinued distribution in the U.S."

There was a flap several years ago where Hyland's was yanked off of the market because of alleged inconsistent levels of ingredients and that was supposed to have been corrected or the FDA would never have let them back on the market.

Perhaps Hyland's raised their standards for a while, then let them slip again?

I hope you find something else that works for you.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

> eight children smacks of religious nut to me

Yes, that's 8 too many.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[brantondaveperson]

Personally, I don't remember either. But I was assuming that you're referring to infant teething, as opposed to that whole thing where your teeth grow wiggly, and fall out, and are replaced by bigger ones, and you've suddenly got a cast-iron excuse to moan about your dinner. Funny that the moaning tends to stop if candy, or biscuits, or cake are on offer, which is why I'm disinclined to believe that actual pain is involved.

Wisdom teeth are another matter, it seems, and while I personally suffered no pain, in many cases there seems to be insufficient room to contain them. I guess I must have a big mouth. If they grow in without pushing all your other teeth around, then there is no pain.

Also, fever is a scientifically measurable symptom of teething.

Well, it would be, if teething caused a fever, which I don't believe that it does.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[omnichad]

Well, it would be, if teething caused a fever, which I don't believe that it does.

You don't "believe" that it does. Nevermind hundreds of years of scientific evidence to the contrary. Well...that's a good enough reason to stop you right there. I'm out.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[brantondaveperson]

I'm pretty sure that scientific evidence doesn't exist.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[omnichad]

The most recent attempt at finding such evidence used improper temperature measuring equipment. I would suspect it's a very mild fever. Most tissue injuries cause enough inflammation for a mild temperature rise - I've had it from sunburn.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[michael_wojcik]

He's a homeopathic father of 8, I'm sure his surviving child will turn out just fine.

What kind of homeopath would be satisfied with an 8X dilution?

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[RockDoctor]

Perhaps Hyland's raised their standards for a while, then let them slip again?

See my comments up-thread about this being a sign of abysmal preparative laboratory standards.

Exactly this sort of concern is why (in Europe), there are strict requirements about the training of staff to work in such laboratories. Obviously, "Hyland" don't want to spend that money to protect their idiot customers from their idiot management.

Re:Hyland's teething tablets

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you give your wife liquid mercury to put in her eyes ...

Not liquid mercury, but precisely the ingredient under discussion in this thread: belladonna, ie. a preparation of deadly nightshade (Atropa belladonna) containing atropine and associated tropane alkaloids. The traditional cosmetic use by women to dilate pupils as a beauty treatment (usefully impairing vision at the same time), is the reason it is known as belladonna after all.

To whiten the skin one would use white lead (a mixture of lead carbonate & hydroxide).

Away with those pesky regulations

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing all those pesky regulations are just about to be signed off, hyland can no going back to selling its products.

Homeopathic Baby Products?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that where you start out dissolving one baby per unit of inert carrier fluid, and then perform series of repeated dilutions until you are left with a substance that statistically contains no atoms of the original baby?

Does this have anything to do with the making of baby oil? I've always been afraid to know what happens inside those factories.

Re:Homeopathic Baby Products?

[MightyMartian]

Thanks, mate, now I'm going to have nightmares for a week!

Re:Homeopathic Baby Products?

[Anonymous Coward]

Baby oil is a bit of a misnomer, they don't usually start with babies, though they do use some actual dead babies, but with reduced infant mortality rates these days, they don't have nearly enough supply.

So today's baby oil actually begins at abortion clinics, it's mostly the rendered fat from aborted fetuses.

Re:Homeopathic Baby Products?

[Anonymous Coward]

Careful doing that, if you don't dilute the baby properly you wind up with a immature man-child with ambitions of being President.

Re:Homeopathic Baby Products?

[michael_wojcik]

Is that where you start out dissolving one baby per unit of inert carrier fluid

Highly inefficient. Research has shown that simply dunking the baby in the fluid leaves behind a quantity of baby molecules, and fewer dilution steps are then necessary to produce the desired power.

Sadly, many parents don't realize that this baby-dunked fluid can be used in this productive homeopathic fashion, which gives us the saying about "throwing out the bathwater with the baby". In homeopathic households, they throw out just the baby.

Re:Homeopathic Baby Products?

[RockDoctor]

Soylent brand baby oil. Now there's an idea.

Poison vs Teething?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see the reasoning here.

Sure, vaccines work on a similar principle, if you somehow accept teething is somehow related to belladonna. But somehow I'm having a hard time believing memory to a poison, of any kind, has any relationship whatsoever with the body's reaction to teething.

A more apt comparison would be with Botox. Now that's a sensible comparison. Both are deadly poisons aimed at killing you tissue. In teething belladonna, I'd venture it's killing the nerves that would otherwise signal pain. Botox kills muscles to make sure your face looks flaccid enough to be mistaken for a young one. But both are damaging your body and the world would probably be better if they were banned.

Why would this product be banned and not Botox? An interesting question. Should we block this ban because Botox hasn't been banned yet? I don't think so.

Re:Poison vs Teething?

[MightyMartian]

You don't see a lot of infants given Botox injections, and I've never heard of anyone getting a Botox injection against their will. If you're an adult and you want to put one of the most toxic substances known into your body, fine by me. But if you start giving your baby poison, yeah, I think I want you put in handcuffs and charged with endangering your child.

Re:Poison vs Teething?

[R3d M3rcury]

The concept here is simple:

Basically, "Teething" is when your teeth grow in. It can hurt a bit. Babies will cry when they hurt. Crying babies are annoying.

Solution: Give the baby something that will make it sicker. If your baby is having seizures or vomiting, they're probably not crying.

Problem solved!

Re:Poison vs Teething?

[Anonymous Coward]

The concept here is simple:

Basically, "Teething" is when your teeth grow in. It can hurt a bit. Babies will cry when they hurt. Crying babies are annoying.

Solution: Give the baby something that will make it sicker. If your baby is having seizures or vomiting, they're probably not crying.

Problem solved!

Wouldn't chloroform do a better job, though?

Re:Poison vs Teething?

[guruevi]

Both can be helpful in certain amounts. Everything is poisonous to some level, even water, but you don't see the FDA banning water.

The problem with the tablets is that they are placebo's (which is acceptable levels of poison to the FDA) but some of them contained thousands of nanograms of deadly nightshade substance. Hyland repeatedly couldn't fix the issue of not having consistent levels of poison in their placebo's.

Botox injections contain some poisonous substance but that amount is very strictly controlled and the same in every syringe. If the syringes contained lethal amounts of Botox in 0.1% of the cases, but acceptable amounts of it in 99.9% of the rest, the FDA would also require a recall.

Homeopathic toxicity

[hcs_$reboot]

That proves the only way homeopathy might have some effect is when the acting product is still present in the final pills. Which is generally not the case.

Re:Homeopathic toxicity

[Anonymous Coward]

That proves the only way homeopathy might have some effect is when the acting product is still present in the final pills. Which is generally not the case.

More specifically, the FDA is saying certain homeopathic products have *too* much active ingredient because the manufacturer of that product uses unregulated, substandard dilution processes...

Even "modern-drug" manufacturers have problems like dillution to the proper amount of active/inactive ingredients as evidence by the McNeil/Tylenol recall of 2010. Speculation is that this appears to be a problem similar to the 2010 recall of teething tablets.

It just seem to my that Standard Homeopathic Corp / Hyland is bitching more than normal this time even in the face of mounting adverse event reports to the FDA since the voluntary recall back 2010. FWIW, most of the multitude of reports are infant seizures so it's hard to blame the FDA for not just sitting on this information (if they got caught sitting on this pile of paper, I'm sure all hell would break loose)...

Re:Homeopathic toxicity

[Anonymous Coward]

That proves the only way homeopathy might have some effect is when the acting product is still present in the final pills. Which is generally not the case.

In many homeopathic products, traces of the acting product _are_ still present. It's only at some ridiculous "potencies" that only the "memory" of the acting product is to remain in an average intake.

Obviously, if you are dealing with poison, you have to be rather careful to follow the dilution process meticulously.

The problem here was that
a) the procedures were not followed properly
b) homeopathic products are not held to the same quality control standards as "proper" medicine, in spite of poisonous substances being involved in the production.

Any dairy farm is tested more thoroughly, and those don't juggle with poison (though they do have problems of bacterial infections). However one wants to view homeopathy itself, the lack of a rigid control that the products actually agree with their prescribed consistence is ridiculous.

Re:Homeopathic toxicity

[hcs_$reboot]

Just to be clear

The idea is pseudoscience, because at commonly used dilutions, no molecules of the original material are likely to remain

from Wikipedia.

Re:Homeopathic toxicity

[N3wsByt3]

One small correction: statistically, it's more likely to win the jackpot of the lottery five times in a row, than to find one active molecule after the dilution-process in a homeopathic product for anything above a 15C dilution.

Typical homeopathic dilutions go to 20C and 30C...

Inevitable and unavoidable

[ilsaloving]

As long as North America insists on persisting their "My ignorance is just as valid as your knowledge", this problem will never go away, and people will continue to die.

Quite frankly, I'm at the point now where I don't think the FDA should do anything. These people are just so god damn willfully stupid that there's absolutely nothing that can be done short of putting them in an asylum. But since we won't... let them make their choices and suffering the consequences.

The FDA is "obviously" being paid under the table by Big Pharma(tm) to keep homeopathy down because homeopathy is such a clear threat to Big Pharma profits. So basically they're damned regardless of what they do. If they try to regulate homeopathy, that would effectively give homeopathy unwarranted legitimacy. If you try to shut it down, 10s of thousands of brazenly stupid idiots will start shouting and flailing pitchforks about with the usual battlecries of... well... the kinds of stuff already mentioned in the article/summary.

I don't think this should even fall under FDA juristiction anyway. It should be treated like the criminal matter that it is. The gov't should charge these parents with child endangerment and manslaughter for knowingly giving their kids poison, because that is exactly what they did.

Re:Inevitable and unavoidable

[HornWumpus]

Didn't the British NHS recently stop paying for homeopathic and chiropractic treatment?

Begs the question: 'How long did they waste money on bullshit?' Did they let it decimate their patient population first? Irregardless of who pays, bullshit thrives. I could care less.

Re:Inevitable and unavoidable

[Anonymous Coward]

This basically my position. I don't think the FDA should regulate beyond truth in labeling. That is, people should be able to buy homeopathic meds if they want. They should be able to buy belladonna if they want.

*However*:

1. If you give Belladonna to your kids, don't be surprised if the state department of human services takes your kids away.
2. The FDA should have the resources to put the hammer on the company if they put belladonna in something that they don't say is there, or if they don't put belladonna in something they say is.

Basically, I think the FDA should have more money, but it should be focused on (1) truth in labeling and product purity testing, and (2) research and public education about drug effects.

Embarrass the fuck out of companies for shady behavior, and sue them into oblivion, but let people decide what the hell they want to do. End the war on drugs and drug regulation in all forms. Increase product transparency.

BTW, this problem isn't limited to homeopathic meds. There's problems with generic med production in India shipping meds without the stated concentrations.

Re:Inevitable and unavoidable

[Mashiki]

As long as North America insists on persisting their "My ignorance is just as valid as your knowledge", this problem will never go away, and people will continue to die.

EU countries were the big push behind the whole "homeopathic" garbage. The literal insanity has started going so deep that people are starting trust things like astrology as a legitimate form of health treatment. This isn't a "NA going nuts" thing. It's a people are going stupid because they're being duped by snake oil salesman.

Re:Inevitable and unavoidable

[Anonymous Coward]

nope, we still allow this shit,

The fuckwit Prince charlie is a big fan!..

Re:Inevitable and unavoidable

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Hey chiropractic treatment works if it is just getting something straightened out. When I was pushing my trailer back around my house after deer season I slipped on some snow covered leaves and got my back a little out of alignment and ended up probably pinching a nerve with a shooting pain into one of my legs still the next day. Went to see a chiropractor who went and popped everything back into place. It cost $25 and took like 15 minutes and afterwards the pain was gone. For stuff like that they are a good choice, beyond that though I wouldn't go to them as there is a lot of quackery that they push.

Re:Inevitable and unavoidable

[N3wsByt3]

It's true there is some scientifically backed evidence on pain-removal for chiropractic treatment for the lower back/spine, in certain circumstances. It doesn't do all the miracle works some quacks claim it does, however.

But, true, it's better than homeopathy, which has NO medical benefit at all.

Re:Inevitable and unavoidable

[N3wsByt3]

It can be solved simply by ordering all homeopathic substances must at least have a 10C dilution. And if they do not follow that - certainly when deliberately done - they can be jailed for fraud, and, if people have died because of it, manslaughter.

It would still leave the stupid people thinking it works, but if we also prohibit any actual medical help to any adult that voluntary and consciously takes homeopathic stuff, it will sort itself out after a few generations.

Re:Inevitable and unavoidable

[ilsaloving]

There are effectively two separate branches of Chiropractics. There's the original one, which was invented (literally) by a freaking janitor who spent some spare time reading medical texts, came up with a crackpot theory and managed to convince some people that it was true like some modern day Moses. That's where the majority of these quack subluxation antivax idiots come from. How it's even legal to call it medicine, I have no idea.

But then a few medical practitioners found a few genuine gems in the above Chiropractic world, cause I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day. So began the second "official" branch of Chiropractic medicine that also includes a lot of related treatments like massage, etc.

The problem is that without education, a layman won't know how to differentiate between the two, and ultimately the latter branch gives legitimacy to the former branch, and in the end just makes yet another big mess of confusion. I don't know how practitioners are vetted, but it's inadequate to weed out the fraudsters.

Re:Inevitable and unavoidable

[Anonymous Coward]

And over here in Slovenia we're trying to emulate the US, we have homeopathic medicine in god damned pharmacies now! It's sick.

Why buy Homeopatic meds - tap water has it all!

[killless]

Homeopatic meds have very highly diluted principal ingredient. Supposedly the more diluted the stronger the medicine. In this case why not just drink tap water it already contains and has interacted with every possible poison at some time. Thus it should be the most potent medicine of all !

Re:Why buy Homeopatic meds - tap water has it all!

[Socguy]

This is a very good point.

Really Funny though Also Sad

[Anonymous Coward]

This is how corrupt or incompetent companies are nowadays*:
1) Companies selling aloe gel don't include aloe.
2) Companies selling homeopathic fluids include too much product.

Maybe they should get together and swap some employees. If you want a stronger solution you're better off buying from a corrupt homeopathic company rather than a normal company? I'm surprised the homeopathics even put any product in their items. I guess water prices have gone up too much?

*Well maybe it has always been like this since meat companies used to grind in human fingers and rats into your food.

Re: Really Funny though Also Sad

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically that's still "meat", so they were better than these alternative drug companies.

Vaccines anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

Homeopaths belief that ailments and diseases can be cured by trace amounts or "memories" of toxic substances that mimic or cause similar symptoms.

That certainly has been proven to be correct at least in some cases with vaccines. Smallpox isn't a deadly epidemic anymore specifically because of using the same process described here. Up until now slashdot has led me to believe that Homeopathy were full of kooks.

Homeopathy is a pseudoscience that has been squarely debunked, offering no more than a placebo effect.

Edward Jenner would have disagreed and we all benefited as a result of his work. The smallpox vaccine certainly was more effective than a placebo. Use some common sense.

Re:Vaccines anyone

[HornWumpus]

You are confused.

Re:Vaccines anyone

[aXis100]

You are completely and utterly wrong.

Vaccines use an dead or weakened version of the virus so that your immune system can generate a response in relative safety. The doses are small but significant. Other components in the dose such as preservative are also non-zero but below harmful levels.

Homeopathy uses such incredibly dilute solutions that there is statistically zero molecules of the active component in any tablet, or even a truckload of tablets. They claim that the water contains a "memory" of the substance, but there is no known physical phenomenon or scientific basis for this claim.

So, immune system having a memory to actual virus particles = real.
Water having a memory to practically zero particles = woofuckery.

Re:Vaccines anyone

[Anonymous Coward]

That certainly has been proven to be correct at least in some cases with vaccines

Setting aside the fact that vaccines don't cure diseases...

Here's the thing about correlation and causation and why correlation is not causation:

We know HOW vaccines work, the method of action that causes immunity. It presents the immune system with a dead or dying or otherwise inert vaccine so that the immune system can learn the pattern of the molecules on its shell and learn to create antibodies for them, so that in the event of a future infection the immune system can start producing antibodies right away. In fact, we know it so well we use this knowledge to prevent isoimmunization for Rh- mothers-to-be by flooding the system with Rh antibodies that bind to any loose Rh+ baby blood before the mother's immune system can learn to do it itself.

It might be possible to immunize against nightshade poisoning. To do this would require as a precondition that the toxin has some unique molecular signature that the human body can generate antibodies for, and that attaching the antibody to the toxin renders it inert, and that the human body can generate these antibodies faster than loose nightshade can kill it. Then, IF we can create some inert version of the nightshade toxin that somehow carries the protein signature of nightshade, but cannot poison the user like nightshade, we give the patient a lot of this inert nightshade, enough to hope that the signature will be recorded in memory B cells.

None of that would be achieved by giving a baby a few molecules of real nightshade toxin.

Re:Vaccines anyone

[gravewax]

please educate yourself. It is NOT the same process in any shape or form as vaccines. Vaccines work on the principle of introducing a modified or weakened strain of a disease in order to give your immune system a chance to generate anti bodies before it encounters the disease. Homeopathy is about providing poisons that have similar symptoms in the vague hope that somehow the body will recognise that symptom from that completely different source and it will cure some ailment the patient already has. In no fucking manner are this methods similar. please use some common sense, or better yet get a fucking education.

Don't trust the FDA

[Anonymous Coward]

How can the FDA have investigated 10 deaths, not even to mention 400 seizures, and not know the cause? And if they DO have reasonable evidence that belladonna is the cause, wouldn't the manufacturer be facing crushing lawsuits and even homicide charges if they refuse to recall?

Obviously homeopathy is a noxious hoax, but I don't have any trust in the FDA's assertion that the homeopathic medicine is the culprit here. The FDA found belladonna levels far exceeding what was claimed on the package, maybe so. But Hylands claims "each complete teething tablet contains only approximately 0.0000000000002 mg of Belladonna alkaloids." In the absence of clear statements from the FDA as to how much they really found, I'm far from convinced the FDA has a case here.

Not homeopathic.

[jcr]

If it has active ingredients at all, it's not homeopathy.

-jcr

Re:Not homeopathic.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's how I read it:
"FDA Confirms Homeopathy Actually Effective"

It may have the opposite effect of the intended, but they finally proved it does something.

Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[mmell]

You're not planning on having your kids vaccinated against communicable diseases, are you? I mean, based on what you've posted so far you don't seem especially concerned with science or scientific evidence.

Giving your kids a preparation containing an unknown quantity of belladonna ? Yeesh, what's next - some nice leeches the next time one of them suffers from boils? Blood-letting to release the fever?

Re:Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[jdavidb]

You're not planning on having your kids vaccinated against communicable diseases, are you?

My kids are vaccinated.

Giving your kids a preparation containing an unknown quantity of belladonna ?

The FDA let them back on the market a few years ago when the problem with uneven levels of ingredients was supposedly fixed. So is the FDA admitting they flubbed up, here? Did Hyland's stop meeting the quality standards that got them back on the market? What has changed, exactly?

Re:Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[mmell]

I don't know.

Did Hyland's stop meeting the quality standards that got them back on the market?

Or perhaps they (Hyland) did something else to warrant FDA's attention? Just to say - I remember a perfectly effective topical antiseptic called mercurochrome, which ended up being removed from the market here in the US because of the mercury present even though there was no clinical evidence that its use could cause mercury toxicity. With that said to support your position, in this instance I suspect that ten dead babies was probably evidence enough that Hyland's belladonna-containing homeopathic remedy is dangerous.

You're in the position of claiming that a demonstrably dangerous remedy isn't dangerous because you've never personally had a bad experience with it. Demonstrably dangerous. There's a body-count associated with this preparation. Not just hand-wringing because it contains mercury or belladonna. Dead babies.

Hey, I finally found an appropriate outlet for all those old 'dead-baby' jokes! Cool!

Re:Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[jdavidb]

My problem is that tylenol is demonstrably dangerous if you don't use it as directed, and the FDA is still happy to pull certain tylenol products off of the market simply because some people are too stupid to use it as directed. So I would like the FDA to clarify if these deaths are happening from people who followed the directions, or if they are happening when people give tons of it to their kids like rats in a saccharine study.

Re: Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

They have proof that the product has wildly different amounts of belladonna, why would dosage instructions on the product still matter?

Re:Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Methinks you're missing the point entirely. It doesn't matter how much magic water you give. There is zero efficacy and it should be illegal to market it otherwise.

Re:Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[mmell]

Okay, compare the LD-50 tests for Tylenol (acetaminophen) with those for Hyland (belladonna).

While we're at it, let's compare the accidental overdose statistics for both drugs.

Re:Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[guruevi]

No, the FDA didn't fuck up, they had the same problems as before - inconsistent amounts of the chemicals in the medicine. This could be due to bad QA or whatever, but that's Hyland's fault.

If you take a sample, most tablets contain what's considered "safe" - no active substance in the tablets aka sugar-pills or placebo. So Hyland is selling a placebo, however once in a while one of the tablets came back with insane levels (potentially psychoactive to adults) of the deadly nightshade chemicals. That's why it's so hard to 'catch' Hyland because most of the tablets and bottles are indeed safe, it's just once every so often, you got actual poison among your placebos.

Re:Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[Socguy]

Anything that actually does something can be dangerous if it's used incorrectly. People choose to use it though when they want an actual effect to occur. If your point is that you're putting on a show to pretend to your kids that you're treating them, well, that's a different thing altogether.

Re:Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[gravewax]

No your problem is you reject science and happily endanger your children because of your own ignorance. this homeopathy remedy appears to be a random lottery as to whether you are giving your kids a fatal dose. They have clearly stated that the amount of belladonna in the tablets wildly vary and are not in accordance with what is written on the packaging. Therefore it is simply not possible to safely dose your children with this as you cannot possible know how much you are giving them unless you plan to test each tablet.

Re:Oh, hey - I forgot to ask . . .

[serviscope_minor]

The FDA is still happy to pull certain tylenol products off of the market simply because some people are too stupid to use it as directed.

In other words, the FDA is regulating food and drugs in the world as it actually is, not some fantasy world that people wish it to be. Everybody is stupid, including you. I mean sure, maybe not today, but you know when you've got a nasty cold and can't think straight, you're in a hurry and late for something (probably because the cold impaired your judgement), sleep deprived (can't sleep well with a nasty cold) and (if you have kids), maybe a couple of screaming kids for good measure. Oh yeah and then something important broke (part of the car?) just to add to the pile.

In that state, you're not a functioning adult, you're a total fucking moron and it happens to every single one of us.

Darwin always rules in the end.

[Kernel Kurtz]

Carry on.

Hyland's Hemorrhoids

[Anonymous Coward]

Only product I ever found that worked for my hemorrhoids was Hyland's Hemorrhoids tablets.

I don't care if it is pseudo-science or placebo effect or what, it works and nothing else has.

That being said, I wouldn't give an infant belladonna.

Re:Hyland's Hemorrhoids

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah definitely wasn't coincidence or anything to do with 5 other products you tried before hand. Try rubbing salt and pepper on your crack instead. It's never been proven to work, but will provide the same placebo effect for less.

Re: Hyland's Hemorrhoids

[Anonymous Coward]

Hemorrhoid "tablets"? Are you sure you know which end hemorrhoids are on? And haven't you heard of Preparation H?

survival of the fittest

[Gravis Zero]

Darwinism doesn't stop just because we live in societies and take care of the weak, it's just changes. Now survival of the fittest means you know enough to help your offspring. People who get goods that are not FDA approved are not selected for.

You Don't Piss Off the FDA

[BoRegardless]

The literally have the power. Only takes them a day to get a court order, come out with the sheriff, escort everyone out and lock down a building.

You speak as if you have a clue, so I'll explain

[raymorris]

Reading the way you wrote (as opposed to what you wrote), you do not seem to be a drooling idiot, so you must be misinformed / uninformed about the definition of homeopathy. In other words, a reasonably intelligent person who got scammed. I've seen intelligent people confuse "homeopathic" with "holistic", that can certainly happen.

Here's the theory of homeopathy, how proponents claim it works:
For any ailment, you find something that will *cause* that ailment (ie a poison).
You then place a drop of the poison in a bucket of water and mix it up.
Then you take a drop from that bucket and put it into another bucket of water.
Do this several hundred times. (This is why it's labeled "300X", it's been diluted 300 times).
In the end, they'll be no poison left the last bucket, but because you had put poison in the other bucket, the water in the last bucket will do the opposite of what the poison does.

That is of course, utterly and completely ridiculous. If done correctly, there will be zero molecules of the poison in the bucket - it's 100% water. You just paid $8.99 for WATER. If it's done incorrectly, as Hyland's did, you end up with poison in the product.

Please double check to confirm my explanation is 100% correct.

Or "holistic"

[raymorris]

It seems some people confuse "homeopathic" with "holistic". Those are of course two very different things.

A short explanation of homeopathy for those unfamiliar:

For any ailment, you find something that will *cause* that ailment (ie a poison).
You then place a drop of the poison in a bucket of water and mix it up.
Then you take a drop from that bucket and put it into another bucket of water.
Do this several hundred times. (This is why it's labeled "300X", it's been diluted 300 times).
In the end, they'll be no poison left the last bucket, but because you had put poison in the other bucket, the water in the last bucket will do the opposite of what the poison does.

That is of course, utterly and completely ridiculous. If done correctly, there will be zero molecules of the poison in the bucket - it's 100% water. You just paid $8.99 for WATER. If it's done incorrectly, as Hyland's did, you end up with poison in the product.

Re:Or "holistic"

[Anonymous Coward]

300X is diluted to a volumetric concentration factor of 10^(-300). Given that there are perhaps 10^80 baryons to 10^97 elementary particles in the universe, you're absolutely right: Homeopathy is /undiluted/ bullshit.

Re:Or "holistic"

[Anonymous Coward]

> A short explanation of homeopathy for those unfamiliar:

And who have no clue. Modern homeopathy is basically magical thinking, much as you described. The *original* work, by a guy called Hahnemann, was actually good, solid, scientific research. He insisted on testing treatments, collecting all available information, and letting reality decide. Unfortunately, he got confused and misinterpreted by people who favored the theoretical ideas over testing, much like what happened to Freud and modern psychiatry.

The idea of treating illnesses with small doses of the antagonist is at the core of vaccination, of many anti-allergy treatments, of acclimation to altered pressure for decompression and altitude sickness, and any number of other treatments. Its ludicrous misinterpretation by modern "homeopaths" who invented the "law of evens" where only even numbers of dilutions create effective treatment is nonsensical in every way. Hahnemann would throw a *fit* if he saw the voodoo being done in his name, much as Jesus Christ would throw a wobbly if he saw the Vatican spending people's fortunes on pomp and circumstance.

Re:Or "holistic"

[Anonymous Coward]

Homeopathy does work - that is why fish are invincible.

Re:Or "holistic"

[hesiod]

Crap, I accidentally modded this incorrectly.

Re:Or "holistic"

[Anonymous Coward]

Perfect explanation! Holisticis different from homeopathic. I always teach this in courses and lectures. People need to have this clarification, to avoid making it a joke.Holistic therapies are different from homeopathy and reiki.

I have mixed feeling regarding this

[carvalhao]

On one hand, I truly believe that homeopathy doesn't work. Period.

But I also support the use of the placebo effect to address minor problems. All drugs carry a risk associated with them, and if we can cure your mild headache with a pill that does nothing, that beats curing a mild headache with a molecule that may have side-effects.

The problem is that placebos only work if you believe in them. And they work better if they are expensive. And to have people make money out of ignorance makes me cringe.

So I choose to support ending the whole homeopathy deal. But I would be looking into other, ethically reasonable ways to make use of that effect by modern medicine.

Re:I have mixed feeling regarding this

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, placebos can work even if you know.

Re: I have mixed feeling regarding this

[Anonymous Coward]

There is also the problem that the placebo effect doesn't work on BABIES who have no comprehension of what medicine is or is supposed to do.

Re:I have mixed feeling regarding this

[Anonymous Coward]

How's the placebo affect supposed to work on babies, who have absolutely no idea of the purpose of the substance they are being given?

Re:I have mixed feeling regarding this

[Anonymous Coward]

The magic kiss is a very effective placebo for children.

Re:I have mixed feeling regarding this

[Anonymous Coward]

> ... I believe.. I support... I... I... I...

You appeal to your own authority so much. Care to state your credentials? Otherwise these statements don't carry any weight.

Re: I have mixed feeling regarding this

[RockDoctor]

Oddly, there have been studies that show that the placebo effect does work in dogs.

Placebo is about the effect of the treatment process - not just any pill you're given. Which is why, in particular, in properly-organised medical trials not only do the patients not know if they're getting "treatment" or "placebo", but also the practitioner delivering the care doesn't know if the patient is going to receive "treatment" or "placebo."

(I should also note that in most medical trials, the test isn't "treatment" versus "placebo," it's "new treatment" versus "standard treatment." If a condition has a standard, somewhat effective, treatment and a proposed "new treatment," then you have to struggle hard to get "treatment" versus "placebo" past the ethics committee instead of "treatment" versus "new treatment.")

There's a link to the package right in TFS

[rsilvergun]

it's here in case you missed it. I recommend comparing it to say, a package of neosporin. Just glance at them. Pick out the outlines. They looks about the same don't they?

Homeopath companies know what they're pushing is junk science. So they dress it up to look like real medicine. I've tried plenty of actual medicines that people swear by but that do nothing for me. I don't keep trying them, but still. There's a lot of OTC stuff out there. Now, as a nerd I'm intensely cynical (comes from the years of bullying). Take somebody who hasn't been shit on their whole life and it's not too hard to see them making the mistake. Especially if they don't frequent /. and read the stories on Homeopathy.

Depraved Heart Murder

[ebers]

I wonder if an enterprising prosecutor will charge members of this company with murder, now that they are fully aware of how dangerous their product is, yet continue to sell it. I hope so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

how can it be toxic

[Anonymous Coward]

so how can it be toxic if its homeopathic and basically diluted nothing? (either it has real stuff in it, even if diluted wrong or it doesnt, you cant have it both ways) besides i want to buy some cause if it has really belladonna in, you will trip balls like mad!

yeah ac post, who cares, no one reads them

pseudoscience ha!

[Anonymous Coward]

I looks like the FDA can't make up their mind what is actually wrong with these products, is it that they don't work or that the dilution is inconsistent, sling enough mud and some of it will stick.

Label, no label

[Anonymous Coward]

We must have labeling for homeopathic products, but we dont need it for gmo products? I guess you get what you pay for.

Exposing babies to peanuts

[Geodesy99]

Done! http://www.health.harvard.edu/...

"In 2015, a study showed that giving peanut products to babies could help prevent peanut allergy. This was exciting news, given that 1-2% of children suffer from peanut allergy, an allergy that can not only be life-threatening but last a lifetime, unlike other food allergies that often improve as children get older. "

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[h33t l4x0r]

My point was that this is an example of effective homeopathy.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[Anonymous Coward]

They're not diluting a peanut until there's barely any trace of the peanut left and then giving the barely-peanut water to the kid. They're using a peanut product that's of the appropriate texture and consistency for the age of the child.

Good rule of thumb: If you can look at something and say 'Hey! That is or used to be a peanut!', it's not homeopathy. If it looks like water, it might be homeopathy.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[Anonymous Coward]

no, the peanut substance isn't diluted to the point where the water has not a single drop of peanut in it (i.e. water with peanut memory which can impart magical protections). This is real exposure and building up a tolerance to an actual substance (not an ethereal essence of one).

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[Anonymous Coward]

Contradiction in terms. And not homeopathy at all.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[ShanghaiBill]

My point was that this is an example of effective homeopathy.

No it isn't. The difference is that if you give a baby some peanut butter, there are ACTUAL PEANUTS IN IT. But if you use the typical homeopathic dilution of 100 fold dilution 100 times, then there is only 100^-100th = 10^-200 of the original amount. For comparison, the number of quarks in the observable universe is roughly 10^80. So the probability of there being even a single molecule of the original harmful substance is closer to zero than the human mind can even conceive. The "theory" is that, although the harmful substance has been diluted out of existence, the water has a protective "memory" of it being present. The "theory", of course, doesn't explain how this "memory" is possible when none of the original water is still present either, or why just using tap water doesn't work since it is also an extremely diluted solution of every known poison.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[ArmoredDragon]

My point was that this is an example of effective homeopathy.

Homeopathy goes under the principle that you treat a symptom with something that is known to cause the same symptom. So for example, if you have inflammation, then you'd treat it with more inflammation. The problem is, assuming that you even had a meaningful dose of medication, this doesn't actually work.

Peanuts don't normally cause symptoms of any kind, so assuming that homeopathy was worth a shit at all (spoiler: it's not) there's no "like for like" treatment involved, so that theory wouldn't even apply.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[h33t l4x0r]

Exposure to peanuts will either cause no symptoms or allergy symptoms depending on the baby. If they cause allergy symptoms and don't kill the baby, then you have successfully administered homeopathy.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[Demena]

Yes, your statement was false.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[gravewax]

no it isn't. homeopathy is about providing heavily diluted poisons that mimic the symptoms, you would not give peanuts with homeopathy you would give them a poison in trace amounts that can cause a similar reaction.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[michelcolman]

Barely any trace? The chance of finding a single molecule of the diluted compound in a homeopathic product is less than winning the lottery several times in a row. (If the dilution is done properly according to homeopathic rules, which apparently was not the case for these teething gels).

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[h33t l4x0r]

I understand why you think that but the dictionary disagrees with you.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[Maritz]

My point was that this is an example of effective homeopathy.

No, it isn't. You're giving them peanut. Homeopathy is giving people nothing. N-o-t-h-i-n-g.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[Maritz]

Congratulations, you don't know what homeopathy is. You might as well be calling it chiropractic.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[Maritz]

Hmm, which to opt for, the generic dictionary definition, which is overly charitable, or the rantings of the idiot who dreamed it up in the first place?

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[Bob the Super Hamste]

The odds are even worse than that. You would have a better chance of picking a random fundamental particle in the universe and then pick a second random (the first one can be chose again) fundamental particle and have them be the same fundamental particle.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[Cederic]

Actually the dictionary does not disagree with him:
http://www.webdictionary.co.uk...

The people that have a track record of actually curing people in the UK also do not disagree with him:
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/h...

You seem be deluded. Educate yourself.

Re:Exposing babies to peanuts

[Coren22]

But, if we dilute him, we will have a cure for stupidity!

Too concentrated!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the problem: they diluted them so much that what was left was far too strong for adults, let alone babies. But don't worry: you just need to dilute them by adding active ingredients and you'll be fine, apparently.

Homeopathic Contraception

[Roger W Moore]

Um, shouldn't your focus be on contraceptives?

What's the point? As a homeopath he would end just up using highly diluted viagra.

Lots of misinformation in the comments section

[slew]

In the forest of anti-FDA and/or pro-homeopathic comments above, I was curious, so as far as I can determine, this is the FDA timeline for this...

September 30, 2016

The FDA is analyzing adverse events reported to the agency regarding homeopathic teething tablets and gels, including seizures in infants and children who were given these products, since a 2010 safety alert about homeopathic teething tablets. The FDA is currently investigating this issue, including testing product samples. The agency will continue to communicate with the public as more information is available.

Reference to adverse event reports here. Multitudes of reports reference events of seizures by infants.

January 27, 2017

Laboratory Analysis of Homeopathic Teething Tablets

FDA has completed testing of homeopathic teething tablets labeled as containing belladonna and other ingredients and marketed by CVS and Hyland’s Inc. Our testing found that the belladonna alkaloids (atropine and scopolamine) content and coffea cruda (caffeine) content is not uniform among the manufactured tablets. FDA analysis found the levels of atropine and scopolamine in some of the CVS tablets and the levels of scopolamine in some of the Hyland’s tablets far exceeded the amount stated on the products’ labels.

This is despite Standard Homeopathic Corporation (the manufacturer of Hyland brand Teething Tablets) insistent claims in voluntary reports that "Manufacture and processing occurred within established procedures to ensure product quality."

So you are the administrator of the FDA and are sitting on the pile of adverse event reports and have this completed laboratory testing report.... What would you do?

Re:Lots of misinformation in the comments section

[sabbede]

Get pissed off that I don't have authority over things that masquerade as medicine but somehow don't have to meet any of the standards for medicine or even do anything at all. Then I'd try to figure out how I could define them as food instead, and then regulate them out of existence.

Re:Lots of misinformation in the comments section

[Anonymous Coward]

Force-feed everyone who signed off on the manufacturing certification a quantity of their product which would be safe, assuming that the product actually met the claimed levels, but due to the manufacturing errors is likely to have serious side effects?

Expect more of this...

[XSportSeeker]

Nothing more appropriate and to be expected of a Trump America.
Leadership by example. My baseless and uneducated ignorance is just as worth as your data driven consensus research.
Keep fighting for the right to be wrong 'till a bunch of people die... it's also the age of not assuming responsibility for anything anyways.
Everything has become religion, and some human lives holds no sway on people's faith on just about anything.
It's time for a full reset.

I don't want morons poisoning themselves either

[rsilvergun]

As a rule there's two things that make a moron: lack of education and being mentally slow. In nearly all cases it's not entirely that person's fault. Sure, there's the occasional rich, lazy bum whose parents are well off. But most stupid people were either born that way or at least born into it. It's tough to escape your upbringing. It's even tougher to escape your genetics. We can celebrate the ones that do, but we shouldn't condemn the ones who don't.

Alternative facts...

[matbury6017]

Everyone knows that Homeopathy uses alternative facts and so normal science just doesn't apply.

Murder by any other name...

[Dog-Cow]

In a sane world, selling a product intended to be ingested which has been proven to be fatal when ingested would be considered murder.

Evaluation

[StormReaver]

The FDA does not evaluate or approve the homeopathic products....

To be fair, the FDA does not evaluate approved pharmaceuticals, either. In the vast majority of cases, the FDA just assumes that the pharmaceutical company is being completely honest about its research and testing, even when it is clearly lying.

Merck is a great example of such a lying company that gets blanket approval by the FDA without any outside verification required.

That being said, not everything labeled as Homeopathic is actually Homeopathic. Hyland's teething tablets, while definitely dangerous, are not Homeopathic since they contain an actual ingredient that is known to have an effect (for better or worse) on the human body.

Hyland's big problem is false advertising regarding ingredient quantity and quality.

...offering nothing more than...

[holophrastic]

You know, bullshit's good for a lot of things. I couldn't care less about any of this carp, but I despise the containment of the placebo effect.

The placebo effect is real. Every scientist believes it's real. Every scientific experiment is based on ruling out the placebo effect -- often that's the only purpose of the experiment in the first place.

So, for ailments that don't require treatment of the problem (we're not talking about transplant rejection here), like sniffles and minor pain, why not treat the person without treating the human?!

I'm fine with bottling the placebo effect. Here, take these two placebos and call me in the morning. Alternatively, you can train with the monks and learn to ignore the pain.

Can you imagine what would happen if science actually dedicated real experimental research into developing truly effective placebos? How cool would that be?

Age

[Neuronwelder]

I've seen homoeopathy procedures, bring back my dad to heath many times. But I would definitely not recommend it to a child, period.

Actually it is, not that I agree with it

[dbIII]

Here is an article on the topic from 2014:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/201...
From that article:
"Yowie has the only patent given by the US Food and Drug Administration for a chocolate-encased toy"

"But with the patent for Yowie's expiring in 2019, Kinder's strong brand awareness and deep marketing pockets could cause a melt-down for Yowie."

It's kind of stupid that something with so much prior art can be patented IMHO, but that's how it is at the moment.

Plastic capsules avoid that 1938 ruling

[dbIII]

I get what you are referring to now.
"The 1938 Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act had outlawed, "non-nutritive items" inside confections, while the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) had specified that toys must be safe for children of all ages"
That law is why the toy parts are in plastic capsules in items such as Kinder Surprise, Yowies and Candy Treasure Choco Treasure surprise eggs.
The plastic capsule I think is a sensible solution but I'm convinced that a patent on putting a toy inside chocolate is a bit ridiculous.

Re:Plastic capsules avoid that 1938 ruling

[RockDoctor]

I'm convinced that a patent on putting a toy inside chocolate is a bit ridiculous.

So, your society doesn't have a tradition of putting small items - typically coins - into cakes "for luck"?

Traditionally in mine, it would be a number of threpenny pieces (three penny value) in each bowl of mix for the Christmas pudding, before steaming them en masse. I remember making them myself - to Dad's Mum's recipe - until we ran out of threpenny pieces when I was an early teenager. Most years, we got most of the threpennies back from the family members we distributed the puddings to, but eventually we ran out, some 20-25 years after the coins were removed from circulation.

Kinder (and any others) are playing on that tradition. Look through your bok of nursery rhymes for Little Jack Horner for another expression of the same idea.

Re:Plastic capsules avoid that 1938 ruling

[Hognoxious]

Kinder (and any others) are playing on that tradition.

Perhaps that's exactly why he thinks the patent is ridiculous?

The tradition is older/wider than that. In Catholic countries they put a small figurine in a rice cake for Easter (or is it Epiphany?) & some say that in turn is derived from the way the pagan Celts used to choose human sacrifices...

Organic has a legal meaning

[rsilvergun]

It means grown without pesticides. Walmart's been caught multiple times cheating on this and forced to pull products each time

Isn't this murder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Better yet, the parents should be charged with murder for feeding their kids poison.