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PayPal's 'Policy Update' Includes Price Hikes (paypal.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the send-requests dept.

"Buying and selling items on the internet is about to get a bit more expensive if you use PayPal to transfer money," reports MLive, noting that some of PayPal's fees will be increasing on March 29. Slashdot reader turbotalon also complains PayPal is disguising news of the price hikes as a "policy update". Roughly one quarter of the "policy changes" are rate hikes, yet their emailed summary glosses over the rate hike, focussing instead on a few of the "policy changes" with one sentence at the end about "changing some of the fees we charge". Additionally, they have added a "non-discouragement clause" for sellers that provides:

"In representations to your customers or in public communications, you agree not to mischaracterize PayPal as a payment method. At all of your points of sale (in whatever form), you agree not to try to dissuade or inhibit your customers from using PayPal; and, if you enable your customers to pay you with PayPal, you agree to treat PayPal's payment mark at least at par with other payment methods offered."

141 comments

  1. Not use it? by sp4ni3l · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You could of course choose not to use it. This is a playing field with enough alternatives.

    1. Re:Not use it? by WD · · Score: 2

      Do you have any suggestions for such alternatives?

    2. Re:Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you use ebay. That is the only reason I bother with PP.

    3. Re: Not use it? by mmell · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uh, credit card? Debit card?

    4. Re:Not use it? by sp4ni3l · · Score: 2

      http://tech.co/top-15-alternat... Just to name a few on top of normal creditcards?

    5. Re:Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PP is the primary reason I stopped using ebay to buy or sell anything.

    6. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Idiot.

      He is mainly talking about sellers. Getting a CC authority is expensive and hard for many.

      On the buyer side there are benefits to not splashing your CC details to people on the net who may or may not store it and then get hacked.

    7. Re: Not use it? by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      How many private sellers or buyers can process credit cards? I can't! Please provide practical alternatives!

    8. Re:Not use it? by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      It's a really cheap bank transfer method at 50c a transaction under 10k and none of the complexities of setting up an outbound ACH.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    9. Re: Not use it? by Traxton · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In Sweden, we have something called "Swish". All transactions are done on your smart phone using the sellers mobile phone number. Both buyer and seller has configured which bank account the money gets transferred to and from. Only thing that gets shared is your phone number. The service is 100% free for both buyer and seller. This has replaced paypal and cash in almost all transactions (Sweden is estimated to be 97% cash free).

    10. Re: Not use it? by corychristison · · Score: 2

      If you have an online presence and sell products/services I highly recommend Stripe.

    11. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Sweden is estimated to be 97% fully surveilled and controlled.

      FTFY.

    12. Re: Not use it? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Uh, credit card? Debit card?

      1. Credit/debit cards cannot be used for peer-to-peer transactions.
      2. Credit/debit cards require trust. How do I know that some random website isn't going to resell my CC info to criminals? Or charge additional fees to my card without my approval? Or store my info unencrypted on their insecure server? None of these are issues with Paypal.

    13. Re: Not use it? by arth1 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sweden, like most of Europe has a payer initiated system. USA doesn't. Here, all transfers are started by the receiving side (payee), and then the payer (or bank or credit institution on behalf of the sender) have to approve it.
      So a giro system isn't possible, and bank account numbers becomes private information to be guarded.

      Yes, it's pretty damn backwards. Hell, a large portion of Americans still pay by cheque. And credit and debit cards still have a magnetic strip. Even those that have a chip still have the magnetic strip. And raised letters. As late as last year, I paid in a store where they rolled carbon paper over the card to get an imprint. No, I'm not kidding.
      The bank I use (one of America's largest) doesn't even have two-factor authentication for its online banking, something my European bank had back in '98.

      It's by far the most antiquated banking system I have encountered anywhere in the world, yet Americans believe they're the most advanced nation on the planet...
      To Americans, PayPal seems like a miracle of convenience...

    14. Re:Not use it? by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Square
      Stripe
      BluePay

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    15. Re: Not use it? by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      Need to update your partisan copypastas dude. The Obama administration doesn't like or dislike anything.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    16. Re: Not use it? by mmell · · Score: 1

      Square?

    17. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen to that.

      And my 2c of PayPal experience (both seller and buyer): it's shit! Terrible! That's why I am not using it and will not use it ever again.

    18. Re: Not use it? by LVSlushdat · · Score: 1

      In case you hadn't noticed, Obama is no longer in office... Just thought I'd mention it since you seem to have been under a rock for the last few months...

      --
      THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
    19. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah well fuck potheads. drug dealing is still a federal crime. state govs are fucking stupid. when I read about pot sellers getting robbed, I cheer. quit selling drugs. be a part of the solution instead.

    20. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Joe 'murkin doesn't want secure, they want convenience. convenience made 'murika great. security is for suckers.

    21. Re:Not use it? by darkain · · Score: 1

      http://authorize.net/

    22. Re: Not use it? by ArchieBunker · · Score: 2

      Can you show me to how only take credit card payments on eBay? I remember when you were allowed to send money orders! When Google came out with their payment system eBay started cancelling auctions who used it and then they bought PayPal.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    23. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's by far the most antiquated banking system I have encountered anywhere in the world, yet Americans believe they're the most advanced nation on the planet...
      To Americans, PayPal seems like a miracle of convenience...

      There are actually quite a few of us that understand this is purely a matter of greed. US banks will continue to refuse to implement ANY kind of additional security, unless required to by law, because they claim it will cost them millions of dollars that is better spent giving their chief executives huge unearned bonuses. This is the exact excuse they used when they refuse to implement chip & PIN on credit cards, like most of Europe uses. Now I hear that Trump wants to get rid of the Dodd-Frank law, which requires investment bankers to put their clients first instead of their own pocketbooks. Believe me, the US banking system desperately needs MORE regulation, not less.

    24. Re:Not use it? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Bitcoin?

    25. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? You mean your Lord and Savior God Daddy Trump hasn't fixed this yet? What's he waiting for, is he too busy getting peed on by Russian hookers? Why won't he make America great again?

    26. Re: Not use it? by rworne · · Score: 1

      Be a Luddite and use US postal money orders.

      Back before PayPal was merged with eBay and CC use became common, I used this method. Only drawback is that it's slower.

      Buyer sends M.O., When it arrives, go to the P.O. to mail the item. Cash the M.O. and pay the postage. If the M.O. is bad or counterfeit, you know right then before your item leaves your hands.

      What's in it for the buyer? Proof of payment. Besides, using the P.O. for fraud is a bad idea (for either party).

      --
      I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
    27. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a moron, get murdered and nobody will miss you.

    28. Re: Not use it? by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      No it's not that hard to do. Matter of fact the last version of quickbooks I was using let you set it up from within the program

      https://search2.quickbooks.com...

    29. Re:Not use it? by jenningsthecat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Unless you use ebay. That is the only reason I bother with PP.

      The only reason I don't bother with eBay is that, except for the occasional seller set up to take debit or credit cards, the only way to pay is with PayPal. I simply refuse to do that. Ever. Because of PayPal, eBay is dead to me.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    30. Re: Not use it? by bn-7bc · · Score: 1

      Let me se if I have this right: if petson A wants to send person b (both live in the us) person a must tell person b (via bs bank) to request a trensfer from person as accont in oeson as bank.. bacwards indeed, i hope i misunderstood something

    31. Re: Not use it? by fermion · · Score: 1

      PayPal provides a level of security when paying an unknown party. It is like using a terminal instead of giving the credit card to a stranger to run.if costs get too high, many people are going to choose amazon instead of eBay.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    32. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only a real currency please. Leave the Monopoly money to the board game.

    33. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Square, Stripe, Amazon Payments, ...

    34. Re: Not use it? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Need to update your partisan copypastas dude. The Obama administration doesn't like or dislike anything.

      Apparently the Obama administration did like it when they created 'Operation Chokepoint'. And whine to the Wiki curators not me, that quote was directly from the Wiki entry.

      And BTW, I didn't vote for Trump.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    35. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lying in court is a federal crime too, but Trump and Hillary are still free to roam about.

    36. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not true. Just recently I started accepting credit cards and it's like $50 for a chip and pin terminal and less than 3% for the transaction fee.

      And there are much better deals out there if you're doing more business.

      I'm canceling my PayPal account as soon as I pay off my promotional balances because I have to work too hard to keep them from illegally charging interest on interest free balances.

    37. Re: Not use it? by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      The less advanced your banking system, the more enlightened you are.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    38. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most antiquated? Maybe in the developed world, not in the world as a whole. Spend some time in developing countries and you'll see that your statement is more than a little hyperbolic.

    39. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, instead you're giving information to known thieves rather than potential thieves.

      PayPal has a well earned reputation fir stealing from customers. They're official stance is that they own all money in their system until the transaction is completed and they're under no obligation to complete or refund the money if they don't want to. Just look at what Notch went through when PayPal seized hundreds of thousands of his dollars or the various vendors that PayPal rips off on behalf of customers that don't even want the transaction reversed.

    40. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cash free is not something to brag about. Whether you think it will happen or not, the fact is your government now totally controls your money, and can fuck you over at will. Will they always be a benevolent government? You 100% sure about that? I hope you are 100% sure... 'cause if not, you have surrendered any/all means of maintaining a shred of freedom if they go bad on ya....

    41. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. We want secure. It's the BANKS that don't give a fuck. If I use a stolen CC to buy something from you, the bank does NOT eat the cost. They reach back into the merchant's account and remove the money, and say "bad merchant, stop accepting stolen cc's". Doesn't matter if it's a cloned card, with all the "correct" information printed on it, but a "bogus" magnetic stripe.

      The banks eat ZERO cost. So why the fuck should they care?

      I see people use debit cards all the time, I've never had a single person bitch that they had to punch in a pin. I highly doubt people would bitch about having to key in a pin for a CC either. You already do at the gas pump. Many pumps ask you to enter your 5 digit zip code. Key in the wrong number.. You get no gas..

    42. Re: Not use it? by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Let me se if I have this right: if petson A wants to send person b (both live in the us) person a must tell person b (via bs bank) to request a trensfer from person as accont in oeson as bank.. bacwards indeed, i hope i misunderstood something

      No, that's pretty much it. That's often done by sending the recipient a cheque, which the recipient takes to his bank, and the bank contacts the sender's bank to get the money. That might take a week. It can be speeded up by buying a money order, which is basically a bank cheque. Then the "clearing" time is less.

      For my fellow Americans: How it works in most of the world is that when A wants to pay B, he asks for and gets B's account number, and instructs his bank to deposit the funds into that account. B gets full access to the money within seconds.
      For private accounts, there's usually no charge either, on either side.
      For recurring payments, you don't authorize the payee to withdraw from your account, but set up a recurring payment job with your own bank. You control when it gets paid.

    43. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's wrong with US people? :-) You get payment backwards, you get fuel usage backwards (mpg? really?!) movie classifications (a nipple more obscene then ripping someone's head off?), and you put a buffoon on the throne instead of the king... *ducks*

    44. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A difference is Direct Debit, which is common for paying variable bills (e.g. phone), but that is almost universally with respect to trusted companies. Although there is always a risk of billing errors, it's not very common and the Direct Debit guarantee means that the banks will reimburse you.

    45. Re: Not use it? by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      Be a Luddite and use US postal money orders.

      Back before PayPal was merged with eBay and CC use became common, I used this method. Only drawback is that it's slower.

      Buyer sends M.O., When it arrives, go to the P.O. to mail the item. Cash the M.O. and pay the postage. If the M.O. is bad or counterfeit, you know right then before your item leaves your hands.

      What's in it for the buyer? Proof of payment. Besides, using the P.O. for fraud is a bad idea (for either party).

      Yeah, and that really adds a lot of friction to the whole "e-commerce" thing.

      First off, the buyer now has to go to a post office and get the money order, line up, and then send off the letter. It then has to arrive at the seller's mailbox. That can easily be two weeks for domestic (assuming the buyer has to make a special trip to the post office, so they'll do it on a convenient day which may be a week later). And if it gets lost, it can easily be more weeks.

      Second, having to go out to do the transaction, versus just keying in your credit card number and paying while sitting at the computer. That itself can mean if you're a seller that buyers will move on to someone more convenient, or for eBay transactions, buyers will factor in their inconvenience into the bids, making lower bids.

      There's a reason Paypal is the way they are - they know they remove a lot of friction between two parties paying each other on the Internet.

      eBay owning Paypal made a lot of sense, since eBay has a lot of random two parties transacting. Money orders can easily take a month or more - sellers often demand payment within 3 days of auction ending because of high volumes. If they had to deal with money orders, that easily means a buyer can delay payment for weeks (even if a letter is lost, the post office may demand 3 or more weeks to elapse before declaring it lost and suggesting you resend).

      Yeah, a seller won't be willing to wait for months for payment, and yet, a buyer can easily take that long if unlucky.

    46. Re: Not use it? by animaal · · Score: 1

      I'm not an economist, but I would have thought a cashless society makes little difference to the level of government control. Cash is controlled by the government anyway - they can:

      - outlaw/withdraw certain denominations (see India, Venuzuela)
      - change the format of the notes/coins, forcing everybody to swap them for new ones
      - change currency entirely, although this is normally done for reasons other than controlling a black market (new/old UK pound, Euro)
      - Flood the market with newly minted currency, devaluing the existing currency

      At the end of the day, the best way to take wealth away from prying government control is to buy physical goods that maintain value pretty well in the long term. Maybe gold, although I don't know how practical that is for most people.

    47. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...if costs get too high, many people are going to choose amazon instead of eBay."

      Amazon fees (for small sellers, bigger sellers I don't know) are 25%, which includes processing the payment and disbursing the sellers share. Ebay fees are about 14% (with a lot of variables) plus the Paypal fees, total fees on eBay are about 18%. Unless the seller pays for extra listing features--some not obvious, or gets tripped up somewhere. Listings items for sale on eBay can be tricky and confusing.

      For books, CD, and LPs, Amazon sets a flat shipping charge the buyer pays, which often does not cover the actual shipping costs.
      So far, eBay is a better deal than Amazon as far as profit.
      But, listing things on eBay is time consuming, the site often is hinky, and often will not let you change things like shipping charges, and often will change things 'back' to a default after you've changed it.
      As for this announcement is mostly about fee increases, that isn't news. If they ever have a fee decrease, that would be news and The Eagles would get back together for a another Hell Freezes Over tour.
      The eBay business model as it evolved out of the founders original vision is pure genius. Many have decried eBay's attempts for years to become an Amazon clone, but many forget the Amazon borrowed a very basic idea from eBay: both host sales and take a percent of the sale. The seller does the work, invests in buying inventory (unless you are selling off crap you own), and the seller has all the risks of losing money
      eBay and Paypal just sit back and collect a chunk of each sale.

    48. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems he took your advice. As such all slashdotters will take a moment to remember the great
          Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 11, 2017 @03:28PM (#53847043)

    49. Re: Not use it? by thejynxed · · Score: 1

      I don't know anyone who still uses eBay for anything over choosing Amazon for buying and selling already.

      --
      @Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
    50. Re: Not use it? by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "Apparently the Obama administration did like it when they created 'Operation Chokepoint'"

      Sadly it's just as much a republican thing too

    51. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And most of the increases are international across-border increases. Selling across borders. It's a virtual wall!

    52. Re: Not use it? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Sadly it's just as much a republican thing too

      'citation needed'

      AFAIK this was totally a Democrat thing. They were targeting (heh) perfectly-legal gun stores, after all. Don't know of many (R)'s who would favor the government attacking gun stores.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    53. Re:Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are there really alternatives? Paypal is a recognized brand most consumers have an account with. Who's going to hand over their payment details to some small service they've never heard of? Not to mention the extra hassle of setting up yet another account. Every minute you add to the checkout process loses you customers.

      Not to mention that the vast majority of alternatives only support credit cards. Paypal on the other hand supports more regional payment methods.

    54. Re: Not use it? by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      Making rules to bypass current law while hoping the rules won't be challenged is a republican thing too. Eventually the rule usually gets changed but in the mean time they got their way.

    55. Re: Not use it? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      So you concede my point.

      Thank you.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    56. Re:Not use it? by TRRosen · · Score: 1

      Of course all the alternatives have the same terms. its just standard fare for financial transactions.

    57. Re: Not use it? by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Idiot.

      He is mainly talking about sellers. Getting a CC authority is expensive and hard for many.

      On the buyer side there are benefits to not splashing your CC details to people on the net who may or may not store it and then get hacked.

      Paypal is a print money organization. Their inventory is equity. Ten years ago, the average item sold on Ebay or equivalent financial transaction was half of what it is today. So costs to purchase since even 5 years ago doubled, and paypal earns double the money for no greater risk. Now add higher rates. Shame

      I guess bitcoin will come along and make paypal obsolete. I certainly think that with paypal greed, it will happen sooner, rather than later.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    58. Re: Not use it? by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      I was acknowledging your point and adding to it, and your welcome too.

    59. Re:Not use it? by doccus · · Score: 1

      Do you have any suggestions for such alternatives?

      Er...I've heard there's some german system.. name escapes me.. And some other american system.. name escapes me, as well. I think I've made my point...
      Most vendors only offer PP anyways, so the whole "policy update" appears to me to be, in addition to a rate update, a "talk nicely about usor you're gonna be TOAST!"

    60. Re: Not use it? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, Amazon didn't allow sellers to list used products in a lot of categories, such as used toys. (source) This leaves eBay for toy collectors.

    61. Re: Not use it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Sweden, we have something called "Swish".

      On Slashdot it's called "woosh"...

    62. Re: Not use it? by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Most antiquated? Maybe in the developed world, not in the world as a whole. Spend some time in developing countries and you'll see that your statement is more than a little hyperbolic.

      I have, and the situation is that most developing countries have more modern banking systems than the US does. They have moved past cheques, for example, and have systems allowing direct credit to other people's accounts.
      I think it's you who are unaware of how the rest of the world (including developing countries) has pulled ahead of the US in some areas.

    63. Re: Not use it? by arth1 · · Score: 1

      1. Credit/debit cards cannot be used for peer-to-peer transactions.

      Not entirely true. Some ATMs allow using a debit card to do a giro transfer, for immediate deposit to the payee's account.
      If you don't have your 2-factor authentication for doing it online, it saves you and the teller from having to do it inside a bank branch.

    64. Re: Not use it? by ZorroXXX · · Score: 1

      I'm not an economist, but I would have thought a cashless society makes little difference to the level of government control. Cash is controlled by the government anyway -

      But the economics is besides the point. If for instance the government of North Korea had the possibility to track all economic transactions between all the people in the country because they were digital, do you think that would lead to fewer or more arrests of political dissents? If the economy in North Korea was cashless, do you think that would lead to fewer or more cases of torture? Killings? Would it be possible for a group of political dissents to meet each other on a weekend if it were impossible to move anywhere without leaving traces like everyone buying bus/train tickets to the same place, etc?

      And while it is easy to pick on North Korea as a worst in class example, something far away, it is worth considering what the effects might be in countries that like to consider themselves best in class with regards to democracy and freedom for its citizens. Imagine if you suddenly without your knowledge are placed on a no-fly list because you have bought a few things from a country that the government has deemed evil, terrorist, communist or some other fashionable witch hunt term. Or perhaps you just have bought something from somebody else that have traded with those countries. This is just what might already happen today. The important thing is to imagine the potential for abuse and then make sure that there always is a non-digital alternative available.

      --
      When you are sure of something, you probably are wrong (search for "Unskilled and Unaware of It").
  2. the P's win by turkeydance · · Score: 0

    alliteration is always admirable.

    1. Re:the P's win by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check your food, champ!

      Directed at the guy that used to do Barbara Bain in Space 1999.

  3. Well, I'm covered then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "In representations to your customers or in public communications, you agree not to mischaracterize PayPal as a payment method. At all of your points of sale (in whatever form), you agree not to try to dissuade or inhibit your customers from using PayPal; and, if you enable your customers to pay you with PayPal, you agree to treat PayPal's payment mark at least at par with other payment methods offered."

    Fortunately, I tell all my customers that all forms of payment are crap, cash, credit, human souls, giant stones, personal services, it's all worthless in the end.

    I don't mind throwing Paypal in there.

    1. Re:Well, I'm covered then by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "In representations to your customers or in public communications, you agree not to mischaracterize PayPal as a payment method. At all of your points of sale (in whatever form), you agree not to try to dissuade or inhibit your customers from using PayPal; and, if you enable your customers to pay you with PayPal, you agree to treat PayPal's payment mark at least at par with other payment methods offered."

      For something that's not a "payment method", they sure seem to bill themselves as a "payment method". They say it themselves: "if you enable your customers to pay you with PayPal..."

      I mean, if I can pay for things using PayPal, is it not by definition a "payment method"? In what twisted-logic universe are they not a "payment method"?

      Here's how you can tell if something is a "payment method"- you try and buy something with it and if you can, it's a "payment method".

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    2. Re:Well, I'm covered then by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Give your customers an equal choice of all forms of payment.
      Note the percent transaction tax the merchant pays right beside each payment method offered.

      At the very bottom, place a footnote: Buyers will receive a 3-X % store credit on purchases more than $10 with a payment processing tax less than %3.

    3. Re: Well, I'm covered then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I took it as "mischaracterize PayPal in its capacity as a payment method." Basically that they want people to give it at least equal treatment to other payment methods. But, it is definitely not clear.

    4. Re:Well, I'm covered then by nnull · · Score: 1

      I had a new client that wasn't in my system and didn't have a method to pay me to have an order proceed. He decided that he could use paypal to pay me. I reluctantly agreed to help the guy out, boy was that a mistake. First, the transaction fees were absurd. Second, the guy had to pay me at increments because paypal has a limit and third the amount of time it took to get the money OUT of paypal was absolutely horrible. You have to wait a few weeks before you can even touch your money and then to transfer it out of paypal was another two weeks of BS that made my accountants life miserable. Paypal instantly treats you as a person with criminal intent for new accounts and only allows you to transfer $1000 at a time.

      Would I use paypal again? Nope. 99% of my clients pay me with wire transfers or checks. Unless paypal can offer better services for people that move large amounts of money, they're completely useless to me and don't offer anything for me of any value.

  4. Is it a payment method or isn't it? by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... you agree not to mischaracterize PayPal as a payment method. ... you agree to treat PayPal's payment mark at least at par with other payment methods offered.

    So it is a mischaracterization for us to call it a payment method, but PayPal calls it a payment method. More to the point, if it isn't a payment method—a means of transferring money to someone in exchange for goods or services—then what the heck is it and why would anybody want to use it?

    Somehow, this contract seems invalid to me, or at least guaranteed to reduce PayPal use significantly by preventing it from being characterized in any meaningful way.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    1. Re:Is it a payment method or isn't it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think they phrased it poorly - I think what they mean is not "you shouldn't call paypal a payment method" but "in treating paypal as a payment method, you shouldn't claim things about it that we don't like"

    2. Re:Is it a payment method or isn't it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I could be wrong but I got the impression that this sentence is meant to say something like "you agree not to mischaracterize Paypal's quality as a payment method" and it's just poorly worded.

    3. Re:Is it a payment method or isn't it? by Blue+Stone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They mean, don't mischaracterise Paypal, not that calling it a payment method is a mischaracterisation.

      I think they just don't want you to say Paypal is shit and doesn't do this or that, or gives the seller some disadvantage. I guess even if those things are true, they're claiming it as 'mischaracterisation'.

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    4. Re:Is it a payment method or isn't it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They mean, don't mischaracterise Paypal, not that calling it a payment method is a mischaracterisation.

      Wow. I must admit I didn't think for a second that was the intended meaning. The meaning I had was "don't call PayPal a payment method" and that meaning made sense to me because there are legal obligations that different types of institutions incur (e.g. is PayPal a bank or not.) But yeah, I see the indented meaning now. That is some fabulously ambiguous language. If (when?) they try to sue someone for "mischaracterization" I think they'll find it doesn't work.

    5. Re:Is it a payment method or isn't it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freudian slip, I guess.

      PayPal is a shitty form of payment. Period. If you want to have your account drained without recourse as a seller then by all means use PayPal. See how good will PayPal be for you. I speak from personal experience.

    6. Re:Is it a payment method or isn't it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      but payypal is shit and calling it shit would not be a mis-characterization.

    7. Re:Is it a payment method or isn't it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect the whole point of this is to get vendors to stop tacking on surcharges for paypal purchases that they don't charge for, for example, credit card transactions.

    8. Re: Is it a payment method or isn't it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering that the service is shit, it should probably be demanding that people misrepresent it where possible. PayPal is just one step up from that creepy guy in the alley that promises to transfer your money in a completely reliable way.

    9. Re:Is it a payment method or isn't it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The purpose of this is that you MUST NOT MENTION "THE FEES" when selling.

  5. Bitcoin? Ether? by WoodburyMan · · Score: 2

    Sounds like all the more reason to switch over to payment in either Bitcoin or Either. Bitcoin first, however Either is generalized as more business friendly, with contracts and such being allowed. Dell, NewEgg, Overstock, and several other online vendors use it as a zero-cost alternative already for digital transactions. No PayPal fees, no credit card processing fees. Digital cash. Also works great for sending people money.

    1. Re:Bitcoin? Ether? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea- ThinkPenguin does too for all the GNU/Linux users on slashdot.

  6. PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by pubwvj · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I actively discourage customers from using PayPal because PayPal costs me money. I will continue to do so for this reason - it's truth. I pay no fee for receiving cash or checks, PayPal sometimes withholds funds, delays payments, makes life generally difficult and is insecure for me as the seller. When PayPal is on par with cash or a check, costing me nothing more and being just as secure for me the seller then I'll treat PayPal the same.

    1. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PayPal also protect buyers from bad sellers...try that with checks or real money.

    2. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Overzeetop · · Score: 2

      All forms of payment cost money. Ever tried to deposit $50k at a national bank account? Fee. Have more than X number of checks per month. Fee.

      CC fees are more, no doubt. BUT, for the consumer, having an intermediary like a CC is an enormous level should anything go wrong with the transaction. It's almost a mini-escow transaction, but where the buyer has an unfair advantage in the initial mediation - aka a chargeback. If it's a transaction worth more than $100 or so, there is almost no way I'll be paying with cash, except where it's a service or good covered by some other means of protection. You may be a great vendor, just as I think I'm also a great vendor (and I grudgingly take CC, too), but there are way too many shysters out there these days.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    3. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Mandrel · · Score: 2

      With these new conditions, if you still dissuade your customers from using PayPal, you risk having PayPal cut you off.

      In Australia, it's illegal for companies to ban reasonable surcharges, so PayPal can't stop vendors adding a surcharge to recoup the PayPal fees, to prevent PayPal cross-subsidising other payment methods. But elsewhere they can impose this sort of parity clause that Amazon is so famous for, using their muscle to gain immunity from fee hikes, and as a way to make all sellers pay for buyer protection.

    4. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 3, Informative

      All forms of payment cost money. Ever tried to deposit $50k at a national bank account? Fee.

      Bank Of America is a scumbag organization run by scumbags, but no, they won't charge me a fee for depositing $50k.

      Call them yourself and ask them, "Is there a fee for depositing $50,000", and they'll confirm that they do not bill you for depositing money.

      Foreign currency or wire transfers, maybe, but a US check for $50k or $50k in US cash will be accepted without a fee. It'll get you put on a watchlist, of course, but there's no fee for that either.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    5. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      Only about 0.0001% of my customer invoices are >$10,000 and none have ever been $50,000 so your point is useless. When I bought large parcels of land I withdrew and deposited upwards of $80,000 and there were no fees. 98% of the checks are $1,000. I get charged nothing by my bank for depositing cash or checks. Perhaps you need to switch banks.

    6. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      "you risk having PayPal cut you off."

      Not a big deal. 99% of my business does not involve PayPal. Most customers pay with checks or cash. PayPal benefits more than I do from the transactions.

    7. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      Yes, but that is not the point of the article. The point is about how things are for sellers.

    8. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "With these new conditions, if you still dissuade your customers from using PayPal, you risk having PayPal cut you off. "

      Odds are if you're trying to STOP your customers from using paypal, you probably won't be terribly upset if Paypal helps force the situation.

    9. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by mysidia · · Score: 2

      OK..... Assume I want to not use Paypal..... How can I transact on eBay as a seller without getting a Credit card merchant account?

    10. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by mysidia · · Score: 1

      I suggested don't "Dissuade" them from using PayPal.
      Actively encourage an alternative method by providing the customer a financial incentive to use the method that is best for you as seller.

    11. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      Are PayPal's fees well beyond your cost of handling checks or cash? Are you seeing an increased demand for card payments? I'd guess that card payments would be a much larger fraction of your business if your customers could just tap their card or phone rather than swipe/insert & enter-PIN/sign.

    12. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      I'd say that PayPal's parity clause bans both PayPal surcharges as well as discounts for other payment methods such as cash. Same for the big card companies.

    13. Re: PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not get the account? Square, for example, charges about what PayPal does and has a much, much better reputation.

      There's plenty of other options as well. PayPal it's pretty much the worst of the available options.

    14. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PayPal does it in the most hamfisted and incompetent fashion possible. I've spent hours dealing with them reversing my charges without bothering to consult with me about it. All of the charges were legitimate ones that I had agreed to and they reversed them with no way of undoing it.

      Credit card processors provide that kind of protection for the same amount or in some cases even less expensively. Some like Square will even provide some protection against chargebacks if you've followed their best practices. I'm not aware of PayPal doing that for people using their services.

    15. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only accepting checks or cash for an online business is a great way to kill that business. I agree with everyone that Paypal sucks, but no one ever provides viable alternatives. Bitcoin is not a viable alternative. Go create more accounts so you can buy money to send me money whose value may or may not suddenly and massively shift between now and when I receive it isn't simple enough.

    16. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      Yes, but that is not the point of the article. The point is about how things are for sellers.

      What PayPal bring you is customers who might not be there otherwise. Many people are worried about their bank/credit account information falling into the wrong hands. The AC's response to you cuts both directions. PayPal gives them a way to pay you that they feel comfortable with. The absence of that option means they may choose to buy from someone else instead.

    17. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by nnull · · Score: 1

      "All forms of payment cost money. Ever tried to deposit $50k at a national bank account? Fee. Have more than X number of checks per month. Fee."

      Uhh, yes, all the time, I don't pay a fee to my bank for doing so. Unless you live in some crap country that does.

    18. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a cost to handling cash and checks. Have you factored that cost into your calculations?

    19. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      Most of my customers are wholesale. I give them an invoice and either they pay then COD (most restaurants do that) or they pay Net-15.

      About 10% or so of my customers are retail and they pay a deposit, then the remainder due at delivery COD with a check or cash.

      My cost of handling the cash and checks is trivial compared with the PayPal charges.

      It used to be that there was a reasonable reason for the credit card company charges but now with everything so automated they should drop their fees to about 1/10th of what they're currently charging.

    20. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      "Many people are worried about their bank/credit account information falling into the wrong hands."

      Cash and checks eliminate that issue.

      "The absence of that option means they may choose to buy from someone else instead."

      Since I'm already selling at capacity that isn't an issue. Most of my sales are wholesale and they don't use credit cards or PayPal. Only a small percent use PP.

      There is no particular reason for me to want to pay PayPal tens of thousands of dollars a year for what is not of value to me.

    21. Re:PayPal is not as good as other payment methods by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      Direct bank account to bank account transfers are cheaper than cards, and are getting cheaper and quicker.

      In Australia these are free, but currently take 12-48 hours (only on business days). Later this year an instant (and still free?) system is coming in.

      I don't know whether ACH in the US is developing along the same lines, but it has the potential to kill off debit cards, especially if the card companies can no longer hide their fees from customers by banning vendor surcharges.

  7. Re: The only reason they can do this is rump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This.

    As in, this shitposting faggot keeps responding to himself.

  8. Re: The only reason they can do this is rump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This. rump has made our lives a living hell. It's just been theee weeks since he started ruling us, but I already want to die.

    Seek professional psychiatric help immediately. A spelling teacher or maybe a dictionary while you are out of the house.

  9. Re: The only reason they can do this is rump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do it quiely snowflake.

  10. :-P by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    yeah well fuck potheads. drug dealing is still a federal crime. state govs are fucking stupid. when I read about pot sellers getting robbed, I cheer.

    You sound like a wound-up, aggressive sort of guy. If only there were a substance that could help you chill out, man...

  11. Re: The only reason they can do this is rump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SPELING IS FOUR TEH WEEK

  12. Ever heard of the "concurrence" ? by Thanatiel · · Score: 2

    Why would anyone pay more if there are several other, safe, ways to pay a shop?
    Whenever I use a debit or a credit card, the transaction has to be authenticated with the bank using a small device.
    PayPal will lose market share in Europe if it becomes more expensive.

    --
    Irrelevant news and morons using moderation to mod down what they disagree on. 2018 resolution: so long.
    1. Re:Ever heard of the "concurrence" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EU recently capped credit card fees to about 0.3-0.4 percent. I'm waiting for the day when paypal and similar services will be capped too.

  13. Amazing how many people don't understand PayPal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's especially amazing that there is no competitor who gets into the game. But I guess they'd have to understand how PayPal creates value first. Is it really so difficult to understand? PayPal gives the buyer security and can be used almost all over the world in online transactions, simply. That's all there is to it, and there isn't a competitor in sight who can pull it off. Baffling. No, PayPal will not lose market share because of these rate hikes. It is without alternative in many situations, and in the situations where there are alternatives, they are almost always worse for the buyer.

  14. europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every time pp or eBay up their rates in Europe,sellers just increase their imaginary postage charges higher to cover her extra costs..
    Supposedly against eBay rules,but that doesn't seem to stop it...

    1. Re:europe by Proudrooster · · Score: 1

      Believe it or not, Ebay and Paypal get a cut of postage fees. It didn't used to be that way, but now Ebay charges a fee for the total (item + shipping). Historically, Ebay used to just charge a final value fee on the item, but idiots started selling items for $.01 + $99 shipping thus the crackdown. So the sellers are just rolling the fee increase into shipping, but Ebay and Paypal are still profiting.

      I think Ebay will slowly die as Amazon marches forward. Unfortunately, Amazon is usually more expensive than Paypal. Ebay on average gets 11% and Amazon is currently at 15%. Shoppers that blindly buy off of Amazon may be paying higher prices than on Ebay.

    2. Re:europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ebay isn't going anywhere. Because of lower seller costs, anything used is almost always cheaper on eBay. This is even more the case with under-$5 items that are cheap to ship. Amazon's per-item minimum seller charge and mandated shipping costs mean the seller can get a lot less on eBay and still make more money. The exception may be books, where Amazon has so much supply and market share that sellers undercut each other to lower prices. But even there, a $0.99 book may be cheaper on eBay because the seller can charge $3 shipping, whereas Amazon requires $3.99.

    3. Re:europe by Proudrooster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe you are correct, but Ebay is a hot shopping mess. Descriptions, categories, titles are a mess. Make a typo on Ebay and you won't find your stuff. Make a typo on Amazon and you still gfindet your stuff. Ebay is sloooow and requires critical thought to sort through inconsistent listings. Amazon has a faster website which takes you right to the lowest price and has Amazon Prime. Order on Ebay, get it in a week. Order on Amazon, get it in 2-days.

      Amazon is neatly organized and the ease at which you can buy stuff is far superior to Ebay. Amazon reduces the friction to buy with one-click ordering and now their Alexa product. Need to do a return? Amazon gives your money back as soon as the item is scanned for return while returns can be painful.

      Amazon lets people harvest local deals, stuff it in a 50lb. box, then send it to an Amazon fulfilment center where they handle inventory and shipping. If you are a good harvester, you barely have to touch the product. Using Ebay you have to harvest the products, store them, inventory them, and ship them.

      Amazon is clearly continuing to innovate while Ebay lumbers along playing constant games with fees.

      For full disclosure, I am an Ebay seller and investigating moving to Amazon.

    4. Re:europe by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      IME it's a little easier and a little harder selling on amazon vs ebay.
      On amazon you have to be approved to post something as new. Some item categories you have to be approved to post in any condition it's not just art and stuff I was not allowed to resell a USB transfer cable that I bought on amazon.

      On amazon you are required to have a photo with a white background so it blends in with the site but you aren't required to have a photo. On ebay they require a photo but you can take a blurry photo with your 0.5MP digital camera or a stock photo of some random unrelated product and be fine.

      I haven't tried sending anything to amazon to let them fulfill an order yet so I don't know how that part works.

      The very first item I sold on amazon was returned because their mail forwarding address had expired.
      I was able to do a partial refund and return all but the shipping fee since USPS doesn't refund your money if they can't deliver still ended up being shorted about $0.10 due to the estimated shipping being very close to the actual shipping and amazon taking their fee out of it.

      As for prices in my experience very small items are usually higher or not available on amazon also lots items are more likely to be found cheaper in lots on ebay than on amazon.

      IME ebay is more WYSIWYG since sellers posting images of the actual item is still common where as on amazon you have 20+ sellers sharing a listing and not one has bothered to post a picture of what they are selling or made any remarks about its condition.

      If you are going to post any type of food on amazon please put the date on the tin in the listing.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
  15. Re: The only reason they can do this is rump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yeah.. it's terrible now that:

    1. National Security is a Priority
    2. Enforcing immigration laws is a priority
    3. Renegotiating crappy trade deals that killed American jobs is a priority
    4. Getting companies to invest in the USA and hire American workers
    5. Finding judges that will support the USA constitution
    6. Cracking down on voter fraud.

    It's just terrible how bad Trump is running the country.

    As an illegal immigrant terrorist that doesn't want to work, I find Tump appalling. American owes me everything, just because.

    But seriously, SNOWFLAKES, it is time to wake-up. The Democrats aren't your friend. Beyonce' isn't your friend. Madonna isn't your friend. You are sheep to be manipulated.

    If they were your friends, they would have already helped you when the had control of congress and the Whitehouse.
     

  16. Re: The only reason they can do this is rump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is YOUZ canz spull ' your un ilite and not a Trump supporter.

  17. WTF is a "payment mark"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems like they wanted to say you can't add a Paypal surcharge, but they accidentally used the wrong words.

    1. Re:WTF is a "payment mark"? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Other examples of "payment marks" include the logos of Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and Discover.

  18. Re: The only reason they can do this is rump by nukenerd · · Score: 1

    This. rump has made our lives a living hell. It's just been theee weeks since he started ruling us, but I already want to die.

    Please get on with it.

  19. Re: The only reason they can do this is rump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. But not such a priority that the military's top brass needs to be in on it?
    2. Blocking green card holders is enforcing immigration laws?
    3. The TPP has already risen from the grave with a new name. What do you want to bet that this Trump is fine with it now that he's had his photo op?
    4. How many since Trump became president?
    5. As written? Or as interpreted by Trump? As written, it clearly states that immigration law and blocking the migration or importation of people is a power of Congress after 1808. I'm sure you can point to the article/clause that gives the President the power to override that with an executive order.
    6. Gotta admit, the one that voted twice for him got prison so it's clear that he's not making any exceptions. I'm looking forward to when he starts "enforcing immigration laws" like the ones that make it illegal for his companies to hire illegal aliens.

  20. Re: The only reason they can do this is rump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tell your hero Trump to stop being a snowflake.

    I didn't get all the votes! You're not wanting to sell my wife's dresses! Tell me I'm a winner or I'll EO your ass!

  21. Only international is going up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the fee increases pertain to international transactions. The cost of USD to USD transactions is unchanged, in every case.

  22. Re:The only reason they can do this is rump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope you are soon deported. The kind of idiocy you spew can only come from an illegal alien who steals from Americans by having them pay for your welfare, food stamps, subsidized housing, medical costs, and special education for you children.

    If you're really suffering so much, return to your home country. No American will give you grief or forcibly prevent you from leaving so don't even think about bringing up the Nazi Germany comparisons.

  23. Paypal dying? by roman_mir · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just a couple of days ago I bought something on eBay and had to pay 520USD. To my surprise the system demanded that I had to contact PayPal customer support. Amazingly enough I was able to get through the maze of call answering menus and eventually had a human on the phone. She asked me to confirm the visa number (interestingly enough it seems they have the access to the unencrypted visa numbers) and eventually said I had to log out, log back in and try again. This time the transaction went through. I asked her what this was all about, she replied that they have to confirm large transactions ?????????? (520usd is a 'large transaction'???????) to avoid fraud. Immediately I thought that PayPal is in trouble. If they have to confirm transactions of that type and amount by hand, it seems to me their transaction costs have to grow significantly and they will become uncompetitive compared to visa and such. Seems to me PayPal is dying.

    --
    You can't handle the truth.
    1. Re:Paypal dying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That or accounts get stolen/ hacked because there's mainly no two-factor authentication with paypal.

  24. Looks like price hikes are for non-US buyers by ET3D · · Score: 1

    Currency conversion and higher seller fees for selling outside the US. Getting with the Trump in crowd?

  25. eBay will stumble along by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    eBay started off as "a freakin' flea market," which the current CEO Donahue (?) said with contempt shortly after he took over when Meg left.
    There is one thing eBay still can do well, and that is be a platform for almost any idiot, or smart person, to sell almost anything.
    As a result, it helped create new markets and collectibles, and not just Pez, but things like vintage tech items. (I'm not going to mention that field I wheel and deal in). Or vintage Barbie dolls or Godzilla toys. Somethings may only show up for sale every 5 years, or unique things only once.
    Meanwhile, Donahue keeps trying to turn it into Amazon, with sellers selling New Stuff, while raking money from ads on every square inch.
    Seriously, you still ask people about eBay, and most people still think it is a flea market. Or a thieves market.
    Yeah, eBay seriously sucks, but as a seller/buyer, it is often the best or only place to sell or buy a lot of stuff.

  26. +HALF A PERCENT ON ALL TRANSACTIONS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Huge increase!

  27. Re: The only reason they can do this is rump by tepples · · Score: 1

    As written, [the US Constitution] clearly states that immigration law and blocking the migration or importation of people is a power of Congress

    But enforcing said laws is the executive's job, within the budget allotted by Congress.

  28. Are you kidding me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PayPay does NOT need a price hike. Everything already costs more so they are making MORE!!! Just another reason to stop using them!!