Slashdot Mirror
Around 2.2 Million Deaths in a Year in India and China From Air Pollution (cnbc.com)
India is on the verge of overtaking China as the country with the most deaths caused by air pollution, the world's biggest environmental killer, according to research published on Tuesday. From a report: The State of Global Air 2017 report states that extensive, long-term exposure to fine particulate matter contributed to more than four million premature deaths in 2015. The report is a joint effort between the Health Effects Institute and the Institute for Health Metrics and Evalution's Global Burden of Disease Project. "We are seeing increasing air pollution problems worldwide," Dan Greenbaum, president of the Health Effects Institute, said in a statement. "The trends we report show that we have seen progress in some parts of the world -- but serious challenges remain," Greenbaum went on to add. The report's analysis showed that India -- with extra exposure and its aging population -- now competes with China in terms of air pollution health burdens. Both countries saw around 1.1 million early deaths due to air pollution in 2015.
... but what kind of doctor will attribute a particular death to air pollution? There is no question that air quality is very poor and heavy industry shits on people in certain areas but pulling a hard number like that out of it is odd.
Presumably the air pollution is coming from some activities that raise living standards to afford clean water, public hospitals, health insurance, and reduced crime. Can we have a figure on how many lives are saved by air pollution as well?
Yes in an ideal world we can have both so it's important to recognize air pollution is more than an eyesore.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Just as an FYI the total number of deaths from every single cause in the US is about 2.5 million per year.
Here is the actual report: State of Global Air 2017
Well just so you know the problem here isn't coal, it's the fact that neither China nor India use any air crubbing technology at all in their power plants. Unlike power plants in the US. Which is why even through most of US power is made by coal we don't have nation wide air quality issues.
But hey, go right a head and whine about the environment instead of actually doing something. I'm sure that'll make it all better.
Hmm. You mean the party opposed to abortion on the moral ground that killing babies because it inconveniences the mom is going to promote this?
If it wasn't for so many knuckleheads out there believing that T is the second-coming of Hit!er I would think that you were trolling.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
No. People are saying focus on pollution. Dioxins and the like, and not on the global warming. (No, strike that. It's now climate change.)
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
I case you didn't pay ANY attention to the election that entire point was one of President Trump's talking points. The fact that we shifted almost all of modern industry to China and India.
You're a fraud and a fool to compare the deliberate murder by Stalin, Mao and Hitler with this. EVEN if true,
You're fu(king sad.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
on a per capita basis vs. other industrialized countries.
as terrorist attacks in the United States!
Hence the word "premature". Re-read the very first sentence.
WTH? The U.S. was adamant that China and India be included in the Kyoto protocol, and withdrew from it when they were not. The U.S. (and Bush) caught a lot of flak from environmental groups and "green" nations for this stance. You're now trying to blame the U.S. for the opposite?
You first.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I feel so bad. But I'll feel better after I go to Walmart.
Hence the word "premature". Re-read the very first sentence.
Sure, but the amount of prematurity matters. If these were mostly sick old people that would have died soon anyway, then this isn't that big of a loss. If they were collecting publicly funded pensions, they were a net drain, and their premature death would actually be a win. A better measure would be total years of life lost.
Why does the U.S. allow India and China to continue leading in deaths from air pollution? We need to bring those jobs back to the U.S. Get rid of the EPA! More air-pollution-related deaths in America now!
Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
If they were collecting publicly funded pensions, they were a net drain, and their premature death would actually be a win.
Damn. If your entire metric for worth is $$ generated - $$ consumed, remind me never to let you near my puppy.
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
Presumably the air pollution is coming from some activities that raise living standards to afford clean water, public hospitals, health insurance, and reduced crime.
Nope.
In India, the worst of the air pollution is generated from burning fields after harvest. There are other technologies to clear the fields, such as a tractor-mounted seeder, which is actually better for the fields, as well as for the air-- but they cost over a thousand dollars each, far too much for the small farmers.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi/delhi-chokes-on-smoke-from-neighbouring-states/story-zAkXkflle5MoUXLNYfZa0H.html
http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/delhi-air-poolution-in-haryana-farmers-say-burning-fields-their-only-option-3739415/
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/03/world/asia/farmers-unchecked-crop-burning-fuels-indias-air-pollution.html?_r=0
Well just so you know the problem here isn't coal, ...
Right. The problems in India are
1. Construction dust
2. Vehicular emissions,
3. burning fields after harvest.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi/delhi-chokes-on-smoke-from-neighbouring-states/story-zAkXkflle5MoUXLNYfZa0H.html
Wrong again snowflake!
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerki...
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
The forced sterilization was done by Democrats. The south didn't like Republicans for a long time after they took away their slaves and burned their cities. The Democrat party is the owner of slavery, eugenics, segregation, and the KKK.
Not to go all Logan's Run on everyone, but say your goal for humanity was to get out into the rest of the galaxy as soon as possible in order to prevent the species from going extinct, it's going to mean not spending resources on people who detract from that goal more than they contribute to it. The world has finite resources and they're probably better spent on making the future generations better than keeping the previous generations alive a little longer. Perhaps its unpleasant to think about, but denying it doesn't change reality.
Anything regarding coal in India/China != anything Republican caused per se.
Try your unnecessary trolling a bit more harder. Or, you know, just have the conversation.
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
Well there is some cost to society if the elderly need more care and medical attention. The worst is if infants acquire a lifetime disability because of pollution, because society is on the hook for their care for decades.
Short term planning is bad, polluting to life up your economy won't do much good if your GDP gains have to go back into fixing all these new social problems.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
There are six major religions in India: Hindu, Islam, Christian, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, and Judaism. I didn't spend a lot of time and you could arguably cherry-pick your results, but what I found was as follows:
Hindu - Abortion is disallowed per religious tenets.
Islam - Abortion is allowed for approximately the first 40 days.
Christians - Mixed; some do allow it, some don't.
Jainism - Not allowed at all to mixed, depending on your source; probably church specific.
Zoroastriansm - Not allowed at all to mixed, depending on your source; probably church specific.
Judaism - Mixed.
It would be unlikely that any American political party would in any way come to be represented in India.
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
Leaving aside your vague Holocaust insult, we're not talking about the CO2 "pollution"....the article is about particulates, smoke, etc. You know, stuff you can see and don't want to breathe.
We're not talking about a colorless, odorless gas that may or may not support an unproven theory.
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
You know, you would think with all those uber intelligent STEM field pros in India they could solve such a problem. I mean that's why we want those geniuses to come over here and work in Silicon Valley.
We'll make great pets
I'm amazed that inconvenient truth didn't get you modded into karma-hell.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Ahh, right. Read the wrong chart originally. But even so hydrocarbon burning fuels are still used in about 67% of US power production. You can probably thank the rise of natural gas fraking for the drop in coal use.
And also hydro only provides about 6% of US power and 7% comes from all renewable technology due to the limitations in the technology that keep it from being an option anytime soon. So basically you're stuck with either burning hydrocarbons or nuclear power. Pick wisely.
So the only countries that have increase CO2 emission since the Kyoto Protocol are now choking to death on the particulate pollution they generated along with the increase CO2 emission, and that is Trump's fault! Looks to me like Natural Selection in action and they have elected to be deselected by their own actions, evolution is a cruel mistress.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Probably pretty similar in China too. Especially construction dust given just how insane the construct boom has been out there.
Those people are not, and have not been welcome in the Democratic party for a while now. They are however welcome in another party in US politics.
The meme that "The Democrats" were the slaveholders is getting so fucking tired. Yes- it's true. Right up until the civil rights era, when all those dixiecrats felt the Democratic party betrayed them with the passive of the Civil Rights Act, and promptly became today's Republicans.
Over time, the parties have almost completely flipped in alignment. Today's Republicans are yesterday's Democrats.
Democrat, Republican- just names. The names don't stand for a goddamn thing outside of what they stand for in the current era. In 10 years, all the racist fuckwits in the south could take over the Democratic party again, and all us northerners would have to retake the Republican party.
In short, today's Democrats are the party of Lincoln, not today's Republicans.
That's what happens when people are too stupid to recognize when they should stop having children.
Whenever I see ads to "feed the poor children" I think that it would be a better idea to send books to women and condoms to men.
Mod me down if you please. Overpopulation is a very important subject, it will dictate whether our future will be shitty or extra shitty but it's somehow politically incorrect to even mention this topic.
https://www.nasa.gov/topics/ea...
No, strike that. Always fucking was. Labeling the political movement toward the combat of said phenomenon from "Global Warming" to "Climate Change" was invented by Republican Frank Luntz to give Republicans a way to refer to the "controversy" without acknowledging the painfully descriptive label.
https://www.theguardian.com/en...
Damn. If your entire metric for worth is $$ generated - $$ consumed, remind me never to let you near my puppy.
It may seem heartless, but if you are going to spend public funds to fix the air pollution, you should ensure that is the best use of the money. Should they put scrubbers on smokestacks, or would the money be better spent on education, better nutrition, or vaccinations? A spoiled first-worlder will of course say "do all of those things", but a poor country like India can't always afford that.
If you go to the website which publishes the data, you can find the health impact in Disability Adjusted Life Years (DALY) which is a better than death alone.
For instance, Bangladesh has 3000 DALY lost per 100,000 population due to particulates.
Very interesting to look at the data:
https://www.stateofglobalair.o...
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
https://www.mapi.net/blog/2014...
Bullshit meme is bullshit.
Thanks for playing, though.
And what's worse, is that the US manufacturing output has an upward trend, minus recession dips. So you're worse than full of shit, you were never anywhere close to right.
China outgrew us, because 1357 > 318, and every marginal increase in per-capita production there accounts for a *fucking massive* increase in total output.
We didn't shift our manufacturing to them, they started industrializing.
Which is why even through most of US power is made by coal we don't have nation wide air quality issues.
That's 2 lies on one thread. Do you have any fucking relationship with reality?
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs...
The Democrat party is the owner of slavery, eugenics, segregation, and the KKK.
Back then the Democrats represented Southerners, rural farmers, and working class ethnics. Republicans represented blacks and the urban middle class. Today, the parties have nearly completely swapped constituencies. The only constituency that was Democrat then and is still Democrat are Jews, and they are in the process of slowly turning Republican.
Blame for the things you mention should go with the constituency rather than the label they use. Or, even better, we should judge the parties on what they stand for today, rather than a century ago.
And also hydro only provides about 6% of US power and 7% comes from all renewable technology
Hydroelectric is renewable, which is why the EIA splits renewables into "Hydroelectric" and "Other renewables."
So 13% of deployed US power is renewable sources, and growing every day, making:
due to the limitations in the technology that keep it from being an option anytime soon
just more bullshit from you. It's an option right now. The infrastructure of the country isn't going to be replaced overnight, but at 13%, that's a pretty significant step, and the growth of the deployed renewable capacity segment is just *slightly* below that of natural gas.
So basically you're stuck with either burning hydrocarbons or nuclear power. Pick wisely.
That's a no-fucking-brainer.
Hydrocarbon power sources are directly causative of more deaths per year than nuclear power has caused in its existence. That just barely doesn't include some poorly placed critical mass fission reactors over a couple of cities in Japan.
Of course, we have no such goal at this time. If your goal is cultural and social continuity, killing off older people is a very bad idea.
It's also worth considering that the pollution probably doesn't leave them in perfect health until one day they die before using any medical resources.
Finally, consider how your thought changes if it's you or someone you love who dies early.
True. Of course the R's were more than happy to pick up the racism banner when the Ds were backing away from it. The truth is, if there's a moral high ground neither party holds it.
Now, for a really inconvenient truth, Hitler got some of his ideas on eugenics from the American Progressives.
india & china decided to move to the US so they could breathe our "air".
Most Indian coal plants built since the 80s have Coal Scrubbing Chimneys. This is old tech. Coal plants are not the issue.
The main problem in the cities is vehicular pollution, dust from construction and burning of wood and leaves by homeless people.
The solution to most of these problems is cheaper electricity- Metro trains, electric cars, cheaper electricity=more industry=more jobs= less homeless people, more industry=more taxes=better enforcement of construction norms.
Anything which drives up the price of electricity like the Renewables drivel is worsening the problems.
Greenpeace has killed more people in the last 30 years by slowing down development than died in both World Wars.
If I have to choose between Hitler and the eco-terrrorists I would choose Hitler every time.
**Life is too short to be serious**
We can easily have one without the other, your iPhone just costs a bit more (and really just a bit, Motorola was building phones cleanly and profitably in the states but moved back to China because it was so much cheaper). Anyway nice straw man.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
and there are now more solar jobs than coal jobs. Clean coal is a myth. The air scrubbers cost so much other tech takes over.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
You're still not allowed near my puppy.
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
The Democrat party is the owner of slavery, eugenics, segregation, and the KKK.
Technically true! But also completely disingenuous.
For any continuously evolving entity such as a nation or political party, there must reasonably be a statute of limitations on claiming either debts or credits for past actions.
The GOP of 2017 can no more claim to be the party of Lincoln than the Democrats of 2017 can claim to be the party of Jefferson, although they both do. The Democrats of today are no more responsible for FDR's interning of Japanese American citizens during World War II than today's Republicans are responsible for the Teapot Dome Oil Scandal or Watergate. The Democratic Party of today would be as unrecognizable today to Strom Thurmond in 1935 as today's Republican Party would be to Horace Greeley in 1866.
Think about the same time frame that you're talking about holding today's entity responsible for yesterday's actions (1865-1964?). Is the Trump US government of 2017 morally liable for paying reparations to the descendants of slaves? Is Angela Merkel's German government morally responsible for unpaid reparations for Kaiser Wilhelm's invasion of neutral Belgium? Are today's management or shareholders of IBM or Ford morally liable for their WWII involvement with the Nazis? Do you think that the Disney Corporation of today stands for everything portrayed in Song of the South? No, of course not. Institutions stay but the people behind the actions die or leave, and the credit or blame leaves with them.
Institutional memory has its place, but only within reasonable time limits. The only place you can draw a meaningful lineage is where the institutional principles remain the same. And if you consider that, I think you'd be hard pressed to make the same argument.
"95% of all Slashdot
Climate Change was invented by Luntz? Then why has been so enthusiastically embraced? It's a effed-up stupid phrase.
If you think it's stupid; if you think it was created by Luntz to embarrass the Global Warming then you need to start explaining to the Chicken Littles that they sound ridiculous chanting the phrase "No More Climate Change."
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
Not the concept of climate change, the formalized name for the phenomenon, as a replacement for the disliked "Global Warming".
Why was it so enthusiastically embraced? Because it's accurate. Which was the genius of it. It makes the problem more ambiguous by the nomenclature, and isn't an outright denial.
The climate has always changed. There weren't ice ages until the recent past (2.5MYA) and in the intervening years we've had about 24 periods of global warming and global cooling (ice ages) and numerous mini-ice ages.
CO2 levels were magnitudes higher 50 million years ago. An era dominated by mammals. Life would flourish at CO2 levels many times the level shouted by alarmists.
I personally find the chicken little aspect of some to be extremely detrimental to accomplishing rational solutions: namely cutting down on fossil fuels (not only for CO2 levels); reducing the production of carcinogenic industrial by-products; and safely disposing of these harmful products.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
The climate has always changed.
True.... but irrelevant?
Trying to sweep a radical change under the carpet of average change is some pretty ridiculous logic. I'm certain you agree.
There weren't ice ages until the recent past (2.5MYA) and in the intervening years we've had about 24 periods of global warming and global cooling (ice ages) and numerous mini-ice ages.
I'm not sure if you're serious... You think there weren't ice ages until 2.5MYA? That's patently false....
The interstitial cycles are true... but I'm unsure how they're relevant, for the same reason stated above. No natural interstitial cycle occurs at the rate the current change is progressing at.
CO2 levels were magnitudes higher 50 million years ago.
True....
An era dominated by mammals. Life would flourish at CO2 levels many times the level shouted by alarmists.
Also true....
Not dominated by civilizations with a requirement for grain to survive, though.
Life will indeed thrive, but humanity will be kicked back to tribalism. We won't be able to feed civilization.
I personally find the chicken little aspect of some to be extremely detrimental to accomplishing rational solutions: namely cutting down on fossil fuels (not only for CO2 levels); reducing the production of carcinogenic industrial by-products; and safely disposing of these harmful products.
I personally find your accusation of chicken-little-ism to be entirely ignorant. The good thing about my personally held belief, and yours, is that the vast majority of the world agrees with mine, and as such, yours will perish with time. See ya there. Keep fighting the good fight.
I'm happy you agree there are things that should be done that meet both of our goals, but you're quite simply wrong when it comes to your reasoning of why The Great Hoax of the 20th and 21st centuries, as you seem to believe it is, shouldn't be treated as the existential threat that it is.
There weren't ice ages until the recent past (2.5MYA) and in the intervening years we've had about 24 periods of global warming and global cooling (ice ages) and numerous mini-ice ages.
I'm not sure if you're serious... You think there weren't ice ages until 2.5MYA? That's patently false....
You're correct. I was talking about the Pliocene Ice Age. There weren't ice ages for what? 250 million years (a quarter of a billion years) until recently.
... checking wikipedia
"There have been at least five major ice ages in the earth's past (the Huronian, Cryogenian, Andean-Saharan, Karoo Ice Age and the Quaternary glaciation). Outside these ages, the Earth seems to have been ice-free even in high latitudes.[31][32]"
The Karoo was from: "360 to 260 " MYA.
The chicken little aspect of global warming comes from saying "the world will end" if CO2 levels rise to a quarter what it was 50 million years ago. No. It won't. That exaggeration is part of the problem. Need we do something about pollution? yes of course. Need we reduce carbon emissions? yes, of course.
Will the world end; will civilization collapse if we take another 20 years before the advent of wind and solar and other alt-energies become significant players? No. Hell no. Exaggerating claims only hurts our credibility.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond