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Utilities Vote To Close Largest Coal Plant In Western US (arstechnica.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: At 2.25 gigawatts, Arizona's Navajo Generating Station is the biggest coal-burning power plant in the Western U.S. The plant, and the nearby Kayenta coal mine that feeds it, are located on the Navajo Indian Reservation, and the Navajo and Hopi peoples have had a conflicted relationship with coal since the plant opened in the 1970s. Almost all the 900-plus jobs at the mine and plant are held by Native Americans, and the tribes receive royalties to account for large portions of their budget. Negotiations were underway to improve the tribes' lease terms, which expire in 2019. But on Monday, the four utilities that own most of the plant voted to close it at the end of 2019. They decided that the plant's coal-powered electricity just can't compete with plants burning natural gas. A press release from Salt River Projects, which runs the plant, explained, "The decision by the utility owners of [Navajo Generating Station] is based on the rapidly changing economics of the energy industry, which has seen natural gas prices sink to record lows and become a viable long-term and economical alternative to coal power."

201 comments

  1. Lots of Sunshine there by wardk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    massive Solar plant?

    1. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Two99Point80 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Hope so - that'd provide a bunch of jobs quickly, and the transmission infrastructure is already there...

    2. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would take ~7000 commercial panels. At $300 a pop, seems like an easy refit for ~ 2mill dollars. And you could retain some jobs.
      Unless the are REALLY closing the plant because the transmission infrastructure is shot, which seems likely.

    3. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't burn sunshine.

    4. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't burn sunshine.

      Thank you for the pointless observation, especially considering the source of sunshine has been burning for the last few million years...

    5. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by EndlessNameless · · Score: 2

      Except you can't scale solar production up or down to handle fluctuations in demand. Or produce solar at night. Or control the weather.

      But aside from that, sure.

      Solar will always be a second-rate option for utilities until storage becomes cheap and plentiful.

      --

      ---
      According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
    6. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Informative

      322 kW panels?

      You lost a 10^3 and are ignoring capacity factor.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    7. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Smidge204 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except you can't scale solar production up or down to handle fluctuations in demand.

      You can scale it down, absolutely.

      Or produce solar at night.

      You don't need nearly as much power at night, and if they go with solar thermal you get quite a bit of storage "for free."

      Or control the weather.

      It's Arizona. They basically have two types of weather; Sunny and Night.
      =Smidge=

    8. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shh, you are ruining a good bedtime story.

    9. Re: Lots of Sunshine there by CaptainDork · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Invest in your looser people.

      Fuck you.

      You said they were tight.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    10. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      That's why no one is manufacturing solar cells.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    11. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Except you can't scale solar production up or down to handle fluctuations in demand. Or produce solar at night.

      Concentrated solar thermal with molten-salt heat storage can do both of these.

    12. Re: Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not pointless, solar power is proven to be unavailable in a community setting. It has to be backed up by a fill in utility. A good working coal plant, could use solar as a feed in, but gas costs less. So a utility, wants to close a coal plant, why, to please the board of directors? Or they don't want to raise the wages of the workers, or feed more money into the tribe coffers creating a better society? The don has told us, the environment doesn't count unless it's del Mar or 5 the Ave. But a healthy environment includes the area and the workers as a community .

    13. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hopefully.I'll be rich(er).

      The best thing about this is that it will no longer be using water from the coconino fossil aquifer. It's interesting that people were demonstrating there a few years ago because they claimed that wind turbines were a foot in the door to more water use.

    14. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Except that, for this generator, demand can easily be modified.

      This facility provides power to pump water as part of the Central Arizona Project. The pumps don't have to operate 24/7.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    15. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      Or produce solar at night.

      You don't need nearly as much power at night, and if they go with solar thermal you get quite a bit of storage "for free."

      True, Power companies typically have trouble selling excess energy produced during the night.

      Or control the weather.

      It's Arizona. They basically have two types of weather; Sunny and Night. =Smidge=

      Where I come from we have two types of weather, rain and night ... we all hate you.

    16. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solar is available when the AC is working the hardest, and if something is built to run only at peak times it might as well be solar.

    17. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by mspohr · · Score: 1

      You can't scale a coal power plant up or down to follow demand, either. It takes days.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    18. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by TWX · · Score: 5, Informative

      One of my uncles works on control systems and environmental systems for coal plants. He's had to travel to visit that plant several times. It's truly decrepit and the plant is dangerously lacking in written procedures. Some of that comes from being on Tribal land, so State of Arizona laws do not generally apply. If I remember right it's been a known cause of pollution affecting the Grand Canyon and other parks and monuments too.

      That part of the Colorado Plateau is pretty sunny. It does snow from time to time but it's not the kind of climate where the snow just builds up all winter, so it probably would be practical to keep the panels snow-free.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    19. Re: Lots of Sunshine there by TWX · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that a partial solution is worse than having no solution?

      As I see it, since people are most often awake and active during daylight hours, being able to operate enough base-load plants to meet nighttime needs coupled with solar to meet daytime needs would be a good way to transition the utility to provide the most efficiently and environmentally produced bulk generation while the consumer-end clean stuff satisfies the remainder.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    20. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by GNious · · Score: 0

      Ah, good old American Absolutism(tm) ...

    21. Re: Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That has more to do with the design of the plant and not the fuel. You can make peaking coal units, there's just not many of them. Also days only applies to stop start, youcan vary in hours.

    22. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      All renewables will struggle with high energy power requirements, industry, commercial and high density residential. Suburban power in suitable climes will not be a problem but beyond that simply can not achieve the required energy out comes.

      That does not even touch the concept of substantially increasing recycling of all material via high energy industrial processes. So using energy to eliminate waste and minimise resource use, a double plus but it will take a lot of cheap energy to achieve it. We should be starting to push into zero waste societies which is possible through effective industrial recycling, turning waste into useful matter to be used again. Even sewerage when properly treated can be turned into high value fertiliser and of course energy, 'natural gas' (tee hee).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    23. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are factually incorrect, you may want to advocate for different energy sources other then coal but lies aren't helpful to your cause.

      If you want to google it the term of art is ramp rate.

      Here is an example of a coal plant that can ramp in less then days. It started with 3 to 5 MW/min ability ramp and with upgrades went to 8 MW/min and 12 MW/min this report has been available since 2011.

      http://www.powermag.com/increasing-generation-ramp-rate-at-morgantown-generating-stations-coal-fired-units/

    24. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of that is an issue. They specifically mention that the coal plant is being replaced by natural gas plants, which are great at starting quickly to cover any decline in intermittent generation. Intermittent generation isn't just renewables either, some fossil units are peakers that only run when market prices get high enough to warrant those expensive units coming on. Having capacity of varying types is a good thing for the grid and for the end customers.

    25. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by AbrasiveCat · · Score: 1

      Or produce solar at night.

      You don't need nearly as much power at night, and if they go with solar thermal you get quite a bit of storage "for free."

      True, Power companies typically have trouble selling excess energy produced during the night.

      Or control the weather.

      It's Arizona. They basically have two types of weather; Sunny and Night. =Smidge=

      Where I come from we have two types of weather, rain and night ... we all hate you.

      Sigh, where I come from we have two types of weather, rain and rain at night, you lucky dogs

    26. Re: Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Base-load is a concept that was invented because thermal power generators like coal and nuclear can't adapt fast enough to follow the load.
      Because of this the floor value of the load was split off and anything below called a base load.
      The only two power sources that can handle the load variation is hydroelectric and batteries/accumulators and the latter isn't really a power source.
      Neither of them really requires someone else to handle the "base load". What they need is someone else to push in more energy, but depending on design they can take care of excess if other sources momentarily provides more than the floor value of the load.
      When you have a system like that in place it makes more sense to think of the load as an average with ripple.

    27. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Uberbah · · Score: 2

      Pedant fail.

      Here is an example of a coal plant that can ramp in less then days.

      Irrelevant. The whole point of the Baseline Power Canard is that wind and solar cannot bridge the power gap on a dark, windless night. Do tell how a coal power plant ramping up generation "less than days later" manages to fill that overnight hole.

    28. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Uberbah · · Score: 2

      All renewables will struggle with high energy power requirements, industry, commercial and high density residential.

      Err, not so much. You simply build your generating capacity to meet expected demands - no different than you would for coal or nuclear power, only in less time for less money. Most of the overwrought concerns over wind and solar power may be answered by simple technology from the '70s. The 1870's.

      There are water towers and hydroelectric dams functioning today that were constructed more than a century ago. For an up front investment - which is required by coal and nuclear power to a Biblical degree - you can build water reservoir batteries to store excess energy to be used when needed, by releasing water to move a turbine. And before you dismiss that idea, the whole point of a
      $10 billion nuclear power plant is to heat water - to move a turbine to generate electricity.

    29. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the capacity factor based on the solar constant, 1400W/m^2. Something coke smokers keep bleating on but forgetting...

    30. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It scales itself up and down. It's much more load following than coal.

      You retard.

    31. Re: Lots of Sunshine there by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      he's probably too stupid to understand that reply

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    32. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      Could also put up turbines if its suitable and maybe create a huge power storage system

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    33. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by jabuzz · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yeah right, Dinowic (a pumped storage in Wales) can go from zero to 1800MW in 75 seconds. If the turbines are pre-synchronized (aka spinning in free air for a small power draw) they can go from zero to 1800MW in 16 seconds.

    34. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by DirkDaring · · Score: 1

      few billion... but who's counting.

    35. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      >dark, windless night.
      that's a local fenomenon. you could build something to transmit power a few thousand K's in any direction.
      "A recent study by Mark Jacobson and colleagues went well beyond above studies. It showed that all energy use in the USA, including transport and heat, could be supplied by renewable electricity. The computer simulation used synthetic data on electricity demand, wind and sunshine taken every 30 seconds over a period of 6 years."
      see http://www.energyscience.org.a...

    36. Re: Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The article they linked to shows a base load 650MW coal plant ramping up from 2/3 power to full output in about 20 mins. Given wind/solar don't normally instantly disappear, that's probably fast enough. Peaking units and relatively small pumped storage could also come into play to fill during unusually fast transitions.

    37. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazing how many places these days are willing to make due with second-rate utilities, then.

      Of course, I've been getting my information from touchie-feely Liberal greenie sources like Bloomberg, so the alternative facts may be different.

    38. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Solar PV is trivial to scale down, just rotate or shade the panels. In practice you would probably use the excess to charge batteries or pump water or use for some kind of non-time-critical process like desalination or refrigeration.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    39. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Solandri · · Score: 1

      You can scale it down, absolutely.

      You don't want to scale it down. Solar's costs are almost entirely up-front. There are no recurring fuel costs. So after you've built the panels, you want them running at full capacity whenever possible. If power generation needs to be scaled down, you want to scale something else down (preferably something using fuel).

      The flip side of this is that solar can't provide base load nor peaking load. You need other power sources to provide those. Something renewables advocates need to learn if they want to be taken seriously in energy generation debates.

      You don't need nearly as much power at night, and if they go with solar thermal you get quite a bit of storage "for free."

      If the dream of an EV in every house comes true, power consumption at night will exceed power consumption during the day.

      And all power storage technologies incur losses. Right now, the most efficient method of storage (pumped storage) is about 80% efficient. So like above, you are best off using electricity from solar when it's generated. Don't throw away 20% of the energy just so you can check a box by pounding a round peg into a square hole. Use each technology in its most efficient way. Solar to reduce power generated from other sources during the day. Other power generation sources during the night. Far in the future if so much of our power is generated by solar that we have excess, then we can start to worry about storing some of that energy to time-shift its use.

    40. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hm my time in Arizona also included snow and lightning storms. So coal is losing out to gas. The coal plant and mine are on Indian land. Sounds like the gas plant is not on Indian land. Is there money to build solar and is the solar going to replace the lost coal plant and mine jobs?

    41. Re: Lots of Sunshine there by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      The mods failed to get it, too.

      "Tight," is an old you-fee-mism for being drunk.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    42. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Average peak demand occurs AFTER sunset. Solar Thermal with and without storage has a very different cost. You don't get anything "for free". Those which do have storage require some form of backup power anyway as the process of losing energy in the system can cause a several month outage for a plant (solidified thermal carrier material in your pipework is a disaster)

      I'm not saying solar is a bad idea, but one has to be realistic on the applications of it.

    43. Re: Lots of Sunshine there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends on locale, but mostly demand rises as people get up, remains high during the day, and marginally peaks as people get home and cook and eat. That tends to be the case whether it's dark or light at 6pm.

    44. Re:Lots of Sunshine there by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      that's a local fenomenon. you could build something to transmit power a few thousand K's in any direction.

      Yes, that's something I point out to concern trolls on wind and solar power - we already move coal and nuclear power hundreds of miles via power lines. So space out your wind and solar farms across the same distance, as you aren't going to have an entire region go without any wind.

    45. Re: Lots of Sunshine there by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      If they are looser, perhaps their leaders should tighten them up with a wrench or something. But I guess you are too much of a loser to spell that word correctly.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  2. What do you know the invisible hand acts by Crashmarik · · Score: 0

    Without government putting its thumb on the scale.

    1. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by gtall · · Score: 2

      Yeah, just like cleaning up the smog that cities used have. Yep, the invisible hand of the Ghost of Ayn Rand did that.

    2. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      The liability would have destroyed the oil companies.

      But if you want to give credit to Richard Nixon who am I to argue.

    3. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The invisible hand does the right thing after it's tried everything else, killing a lot of ppl and animals needlessly in the process.

    4. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The invisible hand would have gotten rid of slavery if we'd just left well enough alone, maybe even by now.

    5. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by martinX · · Score: 1

      The liability would have destroyed the oil companies.

      How would that have worked?

      --
      When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
    6. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by skam240 · · Score: 2

      Personally, I do. He did it in a wonderfull past in which conservatives actually did things that helped tue country

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    7. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      https://www.theatlantic.com/te...

      I'd love to live in a wonderful present where liberals actually deal in facts, instead of just shouting down other people's conversations.

    8. Re: What do you know the invisible hand acts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the bad part of the company would lease everything from the valuable parts after it split. The bad part would then have no assets and all liabilities. Something bad would would happen and the bad part would declare bankruptcy. The money skimmed before then will afford the execs to move to a place that isn't tainted.

      USA! USA! USA!

    9. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 1

      The world still hasn't gotten rid of slavery. It may never.

    10. Re: What do you know the invisible hand acts by Crashmarik · · Score: 0

      And I'd love to live in a world where conservatives didn't spend the last 8 years trying to repeal a successful law without a plan for what they want to do instead.

      You need to define an interval now. The individual mandate just got executive ordered away. As for what's instead nothing is a completely acceptable answer.

    11. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by skam240 · · Score: 1

      For starters, I fail to see how I "shut down a conversation". Second, what was the point of posting that link? are you confirming my point that Republicans of this era actually did things?

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    12. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by Smidge204 · · Score: 2

      Just like the liability of all those oil spills devastating the environment have destroyed the oil companies, right?

      I'm sure BP will be filing for bankruptcy any day now after paying out $50-some-odd billion for cleanup, fines and lawsuits. Aaaaaany day now...
      =Smidge=

    13. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And by *pure coincidence*, on this occasion the market was also favourable to air-breathing mammals.

      Environmental considerations are a pure externality that gets invisible-hand-waved away by market fans who, it seems, are too young to remember smog, too rich to have to live near it, or too dumb to think it was a problem.

    14. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure some Americans live a life resembling slavery, with effective minimum wages getting lower and lower.

    15. Re:What do you know the invisible hand acts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, first you have to prove that you suffered damages. Perhaps emphysema or some form of cancer. Then you have to demonstrate that the damages were caused by a pollutant, and not the result of something else, like genetics. Then you have to demonstrate that the pollutant in question came from the power plant in question. Then you have to demonstrate that the power plant operators knew, or should have known, that their pollutants would directly cause damages of the type you suffered.

      Easy-peasy.

    16. Re: What do you know the invisible hand acts by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      By comparison, about 11.1 million people are enrolled in ObamaCare exchange plans, with 9.4 million of them getting premium subsidies.

      http://www.foxnews.com/politic...

      by 99% you mean less 3%

  3. Market Forces Kill Coal by ClayDowling · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This demonstrates exactly how empty the campaign promises to bring back coal were. Nobody wants to burn coal when it's so much more expensive than everything else.

    1. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Natural gas killed coal, and by the time natural gas is on the decline, coal will be even less viable. It's done. Besides, why in the hell would you even want to burn the stuff? Apart from CO2 emissions, so much effort has to be put into keeping it from ruining the environment and poisoning everyone around it that it's a good thing they're erecting its tombstone.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sometimes markets need to be protected from themselves don't you think?

    3. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Well, unless you're using the Invisible Hand as a sort of religious icon masking the fact that you want to take part in short term profiteering regardless of any long-term effects your business may be causing. Those that want to keep doing nasty things like selling cigarettes to children or vomiting sulfur dioxide and CO2 into the atmosphere will often decry any attempt to limit the harm their business cause by praying to the Invisible Hand, declaring that any attempt to interfere with this deity will lead to Communism or some other sort of ideological bogeyman to scare Rust Belt types into believing that America will only be great so long as a few rather rich people accrue even more money.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by DickBreath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Coal NEEDS to choke under regulations before it chokes us all and destroys our climate.

      Giving tax breaks to promote future progress is not a bad thing to do.

      The switch to getting as much clean energy as possible won't be cheap, and won't happen over night. And other forms of energy will have to be available when clean sources may be unable to produce. But every bit helps.

      We've tackled other huge projects. Rural electrification. Roads to support modern cars replacing horse and buggy. The interstate highway project. Electric street lighting and traffic signals literally everywhere -- and these things are friggin' expensive. But it was worth it for the benefits we collectively get from it.

      It is inevitable that we will use electric cars. It is inevitable that we will stop using fossil fuels as they become ever harder to find. Coal isn't going to make our environment any better, so we should be minimizing its use to the extent possible. New technologies bring new jobs.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    5. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Layzej · · Score: 2

      By market forces you mean the immense pressure Obama put on the industry, choking it under regulations while giving huge tax breaks to other energy producers? The "market" had nothing to do with this.

      You think coal got the short stick over the last decade? Try finding a decent video rental shop these days. Thanks Obama.

    6. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      People hear different things. The coal miners (and others) heard that Trump was going to try to bring back middle-class blue collar jobs. They don't care if it's a coal mine, installing solar panels, an oil pipeline, building refineries - what counts are blue collar jobs.

      And not the BS trope but forth by the high-almighty that we're going to train you to become code monkeys (and then triple the approved H1-B visas) .

      The Dems used to be the party of labor. Not anymore. The Dems abandoned labor in favor of identity politics and other progressive Shibboleths.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    7. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's true, natural gas combined cycles are far more efficient, produce much less CO2, require fewer operators and maintenance techs, and can be dispatched more easily with faster ramp rates. Design and construction times are much shorter, and the equipment is very robust after decades of optimization. They also require much less land and water (but that depends on whether they are air cooled or not). Modern control systems can be programmed to start up the plant at the push of a button with little operator interaction, or even operated remotely for some natural gas simple cycle plants.

      There are drawbacks - modern heavy industrial gas turbines do have unique problems requiring extensive outages during major inspections (and often more unplanned outages depending on the design of the unit and age). Natural gas is more variable in price than coal, but operating companies and owners have gotten better at dispatching combined cycle plants to coincide with demand (some plants start up twice a day). Flexibility is important where natural gas power plants operate.

      There will always be some fossil fuel plants in operation for the next century, if at a minimum to maintain voltage and VAR support. But coal has definitely seen its last decades. Few engineers I work with have done design work on a coal plant now, and those that have are all in their 50s or older. At some point that knowledge is going to be lost.

    8. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Ranbot · · Score: 2

      It's true, natural gas combined cycles are far more efficient, produce much less CO2, require fewer operators and maintenance techs, and can be dispatched more easily with faster ramp rates. Design and construction times are much shorter, and the equipment is very robust after decades of optimization.

      Another big advantage of Natural Gas is it can distributed more efficiently through pipelines.

    9. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by KiloByte · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, coal still receives massive subsidies. It gets to ignore the pollution costs, medical costs, causing up to 1/3 deaths, and so on.

      For comparison, nuclear, beside all the regulation coal doesn't have to cope with, is required to store every bit of its waste for hundreds of years. Please tell me when coal plants have to put condoms on their chimneys that collect all the CO2, sulphur, nitrogen oxide and even radioactive isotopes, and instead of dumping them into the air stores them underground. Only then you can talk about a fair competition.

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    10. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by erapert · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Coal NEEDS to choke under regulations before it chokes us all and destroys our climate.

      For someone whose handle is "DickBreath" it seems to me that you have... bigger... issues to worry about choking on.

    11. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like you made a bad choice and own a coal mine :-)

    12. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      And it has all natural ingredients.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    13. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, there are unlikely to be any substantial amounts of power generated by fossil fuels by 2100. Storage technologies will almost certainly have overcome any difficulties like that. This is little more than the absurd claims of people who just want to believe investing in fossil fuels is a long-term viable way to use your money.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    14. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      And "er," has side effects.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    15. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by barakn · · Score: 1

      Liar.

      --
      "I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
    16. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You high?

    17. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by tquasar · · Score: 1

      China is trying to close coal fired power plants but coal still provides much of the electric power.

    18. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the modern world, burning wood for energy is seen as silly, but once upon a time it was essential and the best thing to do. So too with coal. It's time has passed.

    19. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuckloads of people in the northern US and Canada burn wood for heat.

    20. Re: Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two types of people burn wood fires in a house.

      Rich people for ambiance, not heat.
      Poor people who can't afford to live in the modern world.

      I'm guessing you are in the angry subset of the second.

    21. Re: Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah. He's just hoping his Christmas stocking coal from Santa will let him get another hit of meth.

    22. Re: Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Poor people who haven't been fitted and wired into The Borg.

      Fuck your 'modern world' bullshit.

    23. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      geek is fully indoctrinated into the Trump cult and defends him and anything related to him all over /. these days. Their opinion is not going to budge no matter what facts are presented unless Trump and Republicans okay it.

    24. Re: Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two types of people burn wood fires in a house.

      Rich people for ambiance, not heat.
      Poor people who can't afford to live in the modern world.

      I'm guessing you are in the angry subset of the second.

      Well sometimes middle class people burn if for ambiance/heat/just because we had to get rid of that dang tree and it has to go somewhere, but then again, we just gave away the wood last time. Not having to split, store, and aggravate was all the excuse I needed...

      On a more serious note. Heat pumps usually are efficient enough for wood not to be worth the time and aggravation, that is assuming you don't already have natural gas. What I'd like to see is the portable window units to somehow make the newer heat pump tech efficient enough to put in there for almost the same cost as an AC unit. (Yes, Mini Splits exists, but the purchase and install costs are still prohibitive for most. PTACs sort of do this, but usually not well.) At any rate, if that happened many more people could afford a less bad heating solution. After all a good heat pump is going to cost around a third of what electric heaters would cost.

      One of the reasons my brother continued to burn wood when he could was he could not remotely afford to install an expensive heat pump with a long time to recover the investment.

      For the truly brave highseer dot com does seem to have cheap mini splits. Warranty is uncertain on a self install, and quality is probably not mitsubishi grade...

      Another thing I hate about wood burning, is people do it in nearby homes, such as where I live. It only takes a single house to smoke up the entire neighborhood. It is annoying and unhealthy. I'll probably use one of them if I ever get this addition in. A simple 3 ton heat/cool with no ductwork or aggravation is worth a shot.

    25. Re: Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry. Software on an inverter can handle volt var from excess PV. And power electronics a work better than rotating machines. Respond faster and more precise isely.

    26. Re: Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mini splits are about 800/ton eholesale. Everything on top of that is USA contractors ripping everyone off.

      They should all get pre charged anyway at the factory w different length line sets. Then Joe Bob can I stall units in half a day and put shitty rip off contractors, aka 90% of the market, out of business. Source: I have spent a decade working with building tradesmen.

    27. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If anything else, this is a big point against the "free market" if anything else.

      There is little benefit to anyone from burning coal. Its dirty, disgusting, and creates a fuckton of soot.

      If promoting things like NatGas, then Solar + Wind + Geo Thermal are the product of a mixed economy, than it speaks for the strength of the mixed economy.

      The mental gymnastics I hear is mindboggling. On one hand we hear "invisible hand has spoken", on the other hand we hear "damn crony capitalism preventing us from using really terrible fuel sources".

      What the actual fuck?

    28. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Efficiency can be hard to define, are you meaning cost to transport the same amount of MW/hours of fuel?

      One of the disadvantages of NG as a fuel source as compared to coal is that pipelines are slower then freight trains. With coal as your fuel source you always have a local cache of fuel. With NG just coming from the pipeline your defendant on the pipeline working and you having the right to take gas from it. It may surprise you but often power plants are not the priority customer compared to residential heat users.

    29. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuckloads of people in the northern US and Canada burn wood for heat.

      About 30% of Germany's renewable electricity energy is from burning wood pellets, and about 70% of renewable energy there is from burning wood.

    30. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For someone whose handle is "DickBreath" it seems to me that you have... bigger... issues to worry about choking on.

      Can't make a rational, well-thought-out argument for why it's a great idea to fuck up the environment, so instead you mock their username? Here's an idea: How about you start a nice unvented coal fire, right inside your home, and see how long it takes for you to change your mind (or let Darwinism take its course).

    31. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why the hell is gas cheaper than coal? That is unpossible.

      You got to drill holes two kilometers deep to get gas. Coal can be shoveled up on the surface.

      It simply shows that the coal mines are either in the wrong place or are just badly managed.

    32. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      This demonstrates exactly how empty the campaign promises to bring back coal were. Nobody wants to burn coal when it's so much more expensive than everything else.

      Campaign promises couldn't bring back the ice or seamstress industry either. It's called Creative Destruction a term coined by John Schumpeter. You can't make promises on something beyond your control no matter who you are.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    33. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      Coal NEEDS to choke under regulations before it chokes us all and destroys our climate.

      Here's a concept, how about instead of asking everyone to do things for you, do it yourself? Outfit your home with solar panels and then sell the electricity back to the power company. Campaign to convince your neighbors to do the same. If enough people do it, bam, community-fueled power grid. But you know, keep on asking the incompetent federal government to solve the problem and see where that gets you.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    34. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by DickBreath · · Score: 1

      What you suggest is ALREADY happening. It doesn't happen overnight. Like most changes in society it seems to take forever, but the change gradually occurs. See how the automobile displaced the horse and buggy. But not overnight to be sure. Electric cars will gradually become more affordable and have longer range. And please dear God turn the whole idea of dealerships into a smoking crater in the ground in the process.

      That said, there still needs to be regulations that choke things that harm everyone. It does no good to preach to me that I should put in a well to get my own clean water when there is a major water polluter in the area that can act with impunity due to lack of regulation. I understand that no analogy is perfect.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    35. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by DickBreath · · Score: 2

      I have never choked on the other issues, nor do I worry about them when I am thinking of them. And some of those other issues you mention are large indeed. Even though coal or the oxymoronic clean coal may be easier to swallow, it is still an unnatural abomination which needs to be minimized, and hopefully eventually eliminated.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    36. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pay attention, nitwit.

      He didn't even debate the point. He only made a joke about DickBreath's word choice and username.

      In case you hadn't noticed, this topic is pretty dull. Nobody really likes coal power that well, and those that do, and talk about it, are really boring people. There's nothing to debate here. So why make any argument for anything on this topic? But making a funny about someone's username is actually interesting, which is the point of a discussion thread.

    37. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      I would assume that the plants keep some reserves for this and, if the safety stock is low, bring in backup supplies via LNG tanker. Can you cite some contrary evidence? It would add meaningfully to the discussion.

    38. Re: Market Forces Kill Coal by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      Two types of people burn wood fires in a house.

      Rich people for ambiance, not heat.
      Poor people who can't afford to live in the modern world.

      I'm guessing you are in the angry subset of the second.

      Not necessarily. My middle-class parents have a modern house heated by a wood-burning furnace in their basement with ducts that efficiently blow hot air around the whole house. They live in rural New England, so the wood furnace gets a lot of use in the winter. When they crunched the numbers vs other fuels wood was the most economical and renewable. They have a few back-up electric baseboard heaters to keep pipes from freezing if they have to leave the house in the winter for a few days. The rural area they live is relatively close to the forests that supply the wood, so wood a relatively cheap heat source, but wood costs increase in more urban areas such that other fuel types become better. The main drawback is the effort of stacking wood and hauling it to the furnace, which wasn't a problem for my parents for the last 40 or so years, but they are reaching retirement age and are looking into other heating options now.

    39. Re: Market Forces Kill Coal by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Unless you have ready access to rather cheap wood, buying properly seasoned wood is fairly expensive, and even where you have access to a ready supply of firewood, cutting, splitting and stacking is a LOT of work. I know, when I was a kid we had a wood furnace in the basement and a fireplace in the livingroom, and in the spring I'd be helping my grandfather and my cousin get firewood, either from clear cuts where my grandfather had a firewood license, or on his own property. To get enough firewood to last through the winter was a fairly significant amount of work, and I remember my old man observing that if we were all being paid minimum wage for the amount of work we were doing (even back in the mid-1980s), it wouldn't have been that much more for oil or electric heat.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    40. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wasn't there an effort to continue coal mining to extract rare earth elements?

    41. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by erapert · · Score: 1

      What's the matter, can't take a joke?

    42. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Can't make a rational, well-thought-out argument for why it's a great idea to fuck up the environment, so instead you mock their username? Here's an idea:

      Here's an idea, if you don't want to get mocked, regardless of the conversation topic, then consider not using a sex joke as a username.

    43. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Here's a concept, how about instead of asking everyone to do things for you, do it yourself? Outfit your home with solar panels and then sell the electricity back to the power company.

      That's fine, and I heartily encourage people to do so. But this doesn't stop coal burning from affecting my health or my climate.

    44. Re: Market Forces Kill Coal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When we're talking about wood as fuel in Europe, it's not chunks of wood logs, it's wood pellets.
      They use it for home heating and firing boilers for electricity generation.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellet_fuel

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susan-buchanan/louisiana-wood-pellet-pla_b_6245666.html
      http://www.economist.com/news/business/21575771-environmental-lunacy-europe-fuel-future

    45. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      That's fine, and I heartily encourage people to do so. But this doesn't stop coal burning from affecting my health or my climate.

      Let me walk you through this. You live in a community where electricity is primarily supplied by a dirty coal power plant. You and your neighbors all decide to get solar panels. You generate enough electricity that you don't need the electricity from the coal burning power plant. The coal burning power plant loses its revenue stream and cannot pay its workers or bills. What happens? That's a real CHOKE. Vote with your wallet. Just remember, when you do this, don't whine and complain about the job losses. You decided your health and wallet is more important than getting a paycheck from the coal burning power plant.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    46. Re:Market Forces Kill Coal by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      That said, there still needs to be regulations that choke things that harm everyone. It does no good to preach to me that I should put in a well to get my own clean water when there is a major water polluter in the area that can act with impunity due to lack of regulation. I understand that no analogy is perfect.

      Doesn't matter. The government is incompetent. What are you going to do about it? Just whine and complain? That's going to help the situation fo sho.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    47. Re: Market Forces Kill Coal by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Sorry. Software on an inverter can handle volt var from excess PV. And power electronics a work better than rotating machines. Respond faster and more precise isely.

      Which is more economical to build per watt? An inverter which supports VAR operation or a synchronous condenser?

  4. Make Gasoline instead by avandesande · · Score: 2

    We have lots of both...

    http://www.wvcoal.com/research...

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  5. wow... just that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only 2.25 gigawatts? You twats are massively polluting our planet for.. just that?

    1. Re:wow... just that? by bjb_admin · · Score: 1

      All we need is 1.21 Jigawatts, any more is unnecessary.

    2. Re:wow... just that? by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2

      The largest coal plant in the country is 3.5GW. The largest nuclear plant is 3.9GW. That will power around 4 million homes, it's not that insignificant.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    3. Re: wow... just that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The plant is in Arizona. That will barely handle the AC for four houses.

  6. No long term stratergy by del_diablo · · Score: 2

    So based on this article:
    1. Price on gas lowers
    2. Gas plants gets built
    3. It turned out once built en mass, that gas plants was cheaper than coal before price collapse, but nobody knew until economy of scale kicked in
    ====
    That said, the statement in the article do not have to ring true at all.

    Then again, per Wikipedia, Owners:
    -U.S. Bureau of Reclamation (24.3%)
    -Salt River Project (21.7%)
    -LADWP (former) (21.2%)
    -Arizona Public Service (14.0%)
    -NV Energy (11.3%)
    -Tucson Electric Power (7.5%)
    So 4 out of 6 want it shut down, in the mid term future. Which one? And why?

  7. Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is just a tactic to get the best deal on the renewal of the plant. Happens all the time. Clean coal is cheap.

    1. Re: Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Clean" coal. Uh huh.

    2. Re:Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no such thing as clean coal

    3. Re:Negiotiating tactic by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sure there is! They have this magic smokestacks that take coal smoke and turn it into magic rainbows! It's true. It works on much the same principal as cigarette filters do, filtering out the nastiness and leaving only the cool, sweet smoke that leading chiropractors have determined is actually healthy!

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re: Negiotiating tactic by jwhyche · · Score: 0

      I don't think they understand the meaning of the word "clean."

      --
      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
    5. Re:Negiotiating tactic by DickBreath · · Score: 1

      I laughed out loud the first time I heard Trump say "clean" coal.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    6. Re:Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are scrubbers in the coal plants that take out the harmful pollutants. You guys are ignorant.

    7. Re: Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Nazi already had clean coal. It is still dirty of course but compared to regular coal it is clean. It's all relative.

      That's the problem I have with the current green economy. I commute by bike. I've been doing that for 22 years. A few years ago our government decide to subsidize electric bikes for commuters. Many colleagues got a 1,500 â electric bike for only 200 â, paid for with tax money. But they still commute with their car. On top of that they get an extra 350 â a year because they bought a green bike. Paid for by the employer, but deductible from taxes. I just use my regular bike and didn't get anything for free nor any bonus.

      The same is true for electric cars. Someone who doesn't have a car doesn't get green subsidies although that person is lot greener. Someone who buys an electric cars gets thousands of euros of subsidies, and the title of friend of nature.

    8. Re:Negiotiating tactic by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      That are at the best 90% effective. It doesn't reduce all the sulfur dioxide and other noxious compounds, and does little or nothing to reduce CO2 emissions.

      Burning coal is just plain bad.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    9. Re:Negiotiating tactic by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      They "take out" the harmful pollutants? Where do the harmful pollutants go? Just, poof, they're gone?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    10. Re:Negiotiating tactic by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      I laughed out loud

      That had to smell terrible.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    11. Re:Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LA!

    12. Re: Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never met someone who denigrates clean coal who actually understands the term or works in the energy industry. Only ignorant anti-intellectuals

    13. Re: Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boohoo

    14. Re: Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i've worked on both Pulverized Coal Boilers and CFB's (circulating fluidized bed)

      one was fucking filthy

      the other is just filthy

    15. Re:Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I laughed out loud the first time I heard Trump say "clean" coal.

      Were you laughing out loud when Hillary said this.

      Lest we forget she was for "clean-coal" (running against Obama) before she was against it (running against Sanders)...

      Politicians say whatever they think that will get them elected. Even if it's "funny"... :^(

    16. Re:Negiotiating tactic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The coal pollutants gets turned into wall board and then we build houses with it.

      Close all the coal power stations, and no more 'dry wall' board as a side effect.

  8. There's also a nuke plant out there.... by sconeu · · Score: 2

    About 60 miles west of Phoenix. The Tonopah plant.

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    1. Re:There's also a nuke plant out there.... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Palo Verde is the largest power plant in the country, and the only large nuke plant in the world not near a major body of water.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    2. Re:There's also a nuke plant out there.... by Packgrog · · Score: 2

      My understanding from my stepfather (who works in the nuclear power industry) is that the low price of natural gas, and low price of startup on the requisite power plants, is killing the nuclear power industry as well. Renewables (solar, hydro, wind) are taking over, with natural gas plants as the back up for lag times.

  9. No more Haze in Grand Canyon by rahvin112 · · Score: 5, Informative

    This plant is one of the worst polluters in the west. It was exempted from the mercury limits rule when they went into effect and it's responsible for 90% of the air pollution and haze in the Grand Canyon. This plant should have been shut down as soon as viable alternatives existed and market forces are finally doing it in.

    1. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Market Forces"

      Like Obama saying he was going to "kill coal". That's not the market, that's central planning at work.

      Captcha: competes

    2. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If market forces were allowed their way, the Great Lakes would still be a toxic soup. Sometimes a government has to step in to prevent industries from fucking things up. I may remind you that that great conservative lion Ronald Reagan did a helluva lot of the initial work on what is, or was until a few weeks ago, the government's push to try to clean up polluting industries.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good thing Trump is saving all those coal miners jobs eh?

    4. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by rahvin112 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      More propaganda, you people will blame Obama for everything, even things he had nothing to do with. This plant is going to be shut down because gas is cheaper, it has very little to do with Obama era regulations. It should have never been exempted from the Mercury rule for more than a decade (the exemption goes away in 2018 so they'll need the scrubbers in 2 years). The CO2 regulations Obama added on top had very little impact to this, it was driven primarily by costs, in particular the combined phase gas plants that are super efficient compared to this awful 50's era coal plant and have cheaper fuel.

      The utilities were going to pay the costs to upgrade the plant until gas prices cratered and with wind/solar dropping so fast if they authorize it for another 20 years they'll be losing money on it for 18 of those years. Navajo generating station was dead when gas prices fell and it's about fucking time. It's poisoned two generations of people in the southwest with heavy metals and put haze in the grand canyon since it was built.Good riddance.

    5. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Market forces do not include externalities on their balance sheets. Market forces created slavery, because freedom is an externality that markets do not value. The US Constitution values the General Welfare, but market forces do not.

    6. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Market forces created slavery, because freedom is an externality that markets do not value.

      Bullshit.
      Slavery was the default option for human labor long before there was anything like market forces or even money.

    7. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Slavery was the default option for human labor

      ...for capitalists and other oligarchic shitbags. WYP?

    8. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      . I may remind you that that great conservative lion Ronald Reagan did a helluva lot of the initial work on what is, or was until a few weeks ago, the government's push to try to clean up polluting industries.

      Yeah, but Reagan the actual politician would be classified as a communist RINO by modern republicans. It's only Reagan the legend that's a conservative icon.

    9. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      why don't you gain some credibility and log in. spewing from behind AC is gutter talk

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    10. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I really do feel that, in this Age of Trump, the days of the AC should come to an end. I know that a pseudonym isn't much better, but in general, the quality of posts is at least a little higher from those who have actually taken the time to create an account and log in to it.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    11. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by j-beda · · Score: 1

      Market forces created slavery, because freedom is an externality that markets do not value.

      Bullshit.
      Slavery was the default option for human labor long before there was anything like market forces or even money.

      To be fair "market forces" is a term that can encompass every economic exchange - under any political or economic system. Like "natural selection", it is part of any system. When Ug and Fug were deciding if they should steal the meat from Mug or barter for it some other way - "market forces" were in action.

    12. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To answer your original post, Reagan and Bush 41 sought advisors who accepted science and gave them sound recommendations. They made a logical economic decision that it's less expensive to prevent environmental damage than it is to clean it up. As I understand, Reagan and Bush 41 were personally skeptical of the science, but acted on the advice of people who were more qualified to understand the science. It's not a problem that a president doesn't understand the science and is skeptical of it, so long as the President makes decisions based on recommendations from advisors who do understand the science and don't reject it. That's the difference between Reagan and Bush 41, versus today's GOP. You might not have agreed with their economic policies, but at least they tried to make their decisions based on facts and logic. There's a big difference between the perception of Reagan and what he really did. I've read some of the things that Dick Cheney said while serving under Reagan and Bush 41. Things like his justification for not ousting Saddam Hussein in 1991 sounded very logical, and would have still been very sound advice 12 years later. In summary, the GOP is no longer the party of Reagan, not even close.

      As for eliminating ACs, they've almost always been used mostly to post garbage. If the garbage has increased, it's due to restricting the posting of troll accounts with terrible karma. I think the junk that used to be posted at -1 by troll accounts now gets posted at 0 by ACs. Despite this, Malda justified anonymous posting based on the need to be able to speak without fear of retribution. Considering the increase in censorship and the suppression of whistle blowers, I'd argue it's more important than ever to be able to say things anonymously. The problem is, it seems that Slashdot does a tremendous amount of tracking, so AC posts aren't really anonymous. Sure, ordinary users can't see who you are, but it's clear that Slashdot stores a lot of information about ACs. The MD5 hashes of IPs and subnets are probably necessary to limit trolls, but it's easy to calculate the MD5 hash of the entire IPv4 address space and unmask an AC. It would be a lot more anonymous if done in the IPv6 address space, because it's a lot harder to calculate the MD5 hash of that entire address space. Beyond that, though, I believe Slashdot collects quite a bit of individual information about all posters, which is troubling.

      The comment you're (rightly) irked by comes across as something that could be interpreted as a violent threat, and has no place on Slashdot. I'd support longer bans for users who make seriously abusive posts, identified either through reporting the comment as inappropriate (do editors actually review those?) and/or the implementation of something like the SoylentNews spam moderation. Such a moderation would be only for truly egregious abuse and might carry a long ban (perhaps a week instead of 24 hours) for a single such moderation, with each use reviewed by editors, and severe penalties against moderators who misuse the moderation. In the so-called Age of Trump, AC posting might be more important than ever (especially if it can be truly anonymous). It just needs to be implemented in such a way to impose tougher sanctions against users who commit egregious abuse.

      By the way, I choose to post AC instead of using an account as a protest against all the tracking that Slashdot does. Just use Noscript and look at all the trackers it blocks.

    13. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      why do you ACs trolls post here and prove that the far right are a bunch of idiots?
      There was NOTHING that O did to kill Coal in any way. Yeah, he blocked mining on public land and prevented rate cuts that the GOP wants to give big coal (big coal already pays less on public land, than any other nation charging miners).
      But,there is little doubt that it was Nat Gas being so low, combined with the Mercury emission cuts, that killed off the coal so far.
      And with wind being cheaper than coal, it is also stopping new coal.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    14. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      OMG. I hope that you are being sarcastic, but I know better.
      I wish that I had used my mod points instead. I would have modded you down.
      Reagan was the WORST. With Watts, and Gorsuch were total FUCK-UPS and did even more damage to our environment than all of the previous presidents before.
      It was NIXON, followed by Carter that cleaned up things. EPA was created by Nixon while reagan tried hard to kill it off and sell our public lands.
      reagan and W were 2 of our presidents, until Trump came along.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    15. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Well, totally agree with you on this. I am amazed that /. has NOT changed their policy in all these years.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    16. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      i worked at CDC and then DARPA under reagan. I was on the ground floor of HIV and know the stuff that NEVER made the 'historical' book, the band played on.
      I can tell you that reagan and his cunt wife were personally responsible for allowing HIV to spread in America. Why? Because CDC went to him asking for 50 million to track those who had it. At the time, we KNEW that there were fewer than 500 ppl with an infection (turned out later, once known, that it was less than 200). We could not have stopped its spread, but we could have put it back DECADES. reagan, nancy and a PRIEST made the choice to NOT FUND THIS. 50 fucking million dollars.

      And I worked at DARPA later and saw how reagan's ppl operated then. reagan was the start of the GOP that HATE AND DISTRUST SCIENCE.
      The reason is that logic/science could be used to stop them from the fucking raving of the world that he was doing.

      reagan was the worst. W make reagan look good. And trump? Well, we will have to see. The fact that he has Thiel and Musk is a DAMN GOOD THING.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    17. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. Slavery was the default option for human labor

      ...for capitalists and other oligarchic shitbags. WYP?

      The point is that the statement "Market forces created slavery, because freedom is an externality that markets do not value" is a false statement.
      The reason the statement is false is that you cannot say "A created B" if A did not exist before B.

    18. Re:No more Haze in Grand Canyon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Market forces created slavery, because freedom is an externality that markets do not value.

      Bullshit.
      Slavery was the default option for human labor long before there was anything like market forces or even money.

      To be fair "market forces" is a term that can encompass every economic exchange - under any political or economic system. Like "natural selection", it is part of any system. When Ug and Fug were deciding if they should steal the meat from Mug or barter for it some other way - "market forces" were in action.

      Still no on "To be fair "market forces" is a term that can encompass every economic exchange - under any political or economic system"

      I don't think so . Economists use the term "market" in a way the specifically does Not include every economic exchange, and especially the Ug and Fug kind of transaction.

  10. Just one market force - Fracking by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    It should be noted that the whole reason coal is more expensive is because we have so much more natural gas from fracking. You can thank Fracking for yet another environmental victory.

    how empty the campaign promises to bring back coal were.

    No-one said they would be coal jobs... plus maybe those jobs are not going away, from article:

    it's at least possible that the tribes could work out a deal to keep the plant running under a different ownership arrangement.

    Never underestimate the power of an aggrieved minority. Question of the day, do you think Democrats will vote for anything that keeps this plant running? The answer is yes, as you will see.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by amicusNYCL · · Score: 5, Informative

      No-one said they would be coal jobs

      The only argument you could possibly have for that statement to be true is to argue that Trump's speaking style is so vague as to be meaningless. He did say this:

      "We're gonna open the mines"

      And this:

      "Let me tell you: the miners in West Virginia and Pennsylvania, which was so great to me last week and Ohio and all over, they’re going to start to work again, believe me. You’re going to be proud again to be miners."

      He told the miners to get ready to "work their ass off". He made several statements like those after Clinton said that, if she were elected, a lot of coal miners would be out of jobs. Naturally, Trump sensed a weakness and attacked. And people responded to him with statements like this:

      One of [West Virginia's] delegates, donning a coal miner's hat, used the state's time to complain about how President Obama has wrecked the state's economy: "It has been devastating what has happened all across Appalachia and this country," the delegate said. "Tens of thousands of coal miners have lost their jobs over the last seven-and-a-half years under this administration - it's time we change course with a man named Donald J. Trump."

      And this:

      "I did vote for Donald Trump," Moeller says. "It's really hard to even say that because I so dislike his rhetoric. But I voted for him on one singular issue, and that was coal."

      And this:

      "I voted for Trump - I mean, a coal miner would be stupid not to," Hathaway says.

      And this:

      "He is a whacko; he's never going to stop being a whacko," Hathaway says. "But I mean, the things he did say - the good stuff - was good for the coal mining community. But we'll see what happens."

      And this:

      “I have said to Mr. Trump on a couple of occasions, 'Please temper your commitment to my coal miners and your expectations of bringing the coal industry back.' It cannot be brought back to what it was,” said Robert Murray, CEO of Murray Energy Corp., the nation's largest coal producer. “The destruction is permanent,” said Mr. Murray, a Trump supporter.

      So, SuperKendall, why do you think all of those people would say things like that if Trump never promised to bring back the coal industry? Do a search for "Donald Trump coal jobs" and go and look at all of the articles going back to last May. Notice him standing on stage with a sign saying "Trump Digs Coal". He's got the CEO of the largest coal producer telling him to temper his promises to bring the coal industry back.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    2. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      You didn't read what I wrote at all, did you? And to boot, you seem to have an absolutely terrible grasp of geography....

      Sigh. So it goes these days, impossible to have rational debate when the left area only about talking points regardless of facts.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    3. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> it's at least possible that the tribes could work out a deal to keep the plant running

      God I hope not. The air quality is a major problem in Phoenix. They could just open yet another Casino on their land so they can avoid paying taxes, and probably employ just as many people and make just as much money.

      >> do you think Democrats will vote for anything that keeps this plant running?

      Of course. Especially if it means another donation to the Clinton Foundation.

    4. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> It cannot be brought back to what it was,

      If Trump gives it enough subsidies anything could happen.

    5. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wow anything to win an argument? He provided tons of cites, you respond with some slippery bullshit you know is wrong. Did it make you feel good to write that? Did you smile to yourself? Did you gently, gently stroke your neckbeard and say "still good...I'm still good..." while choking back a tear and a little bile from the self-doubt? God damn it must suck to be you.

    6. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      To be fair, burning coal for electrical power production is only a part of the coal indursty. The other part is steel production from iron ore.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    7. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do a search for "Donald Trump rim jobs" and go and look at all of the articles going back to last May.

      FTFY.

    8. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I am no fan of coal, and would like to see these miners find good work in another field, a power plant in Kayenta isn't going to affect the air quality in Phoenix one way or another. Kayenta is 300 miles north-northeast of Phoenix, on top of a high plateau, on the other side of several mountain ranges, in an area where prevailing winds blow west to east.

      The air quality problems in Phoenix are essentially all local. It's one of the most sprawling metropolitan areas in the country, with long commutes that are mostly by single occupant vehicle. It's in the middle of a valley with mountains on all sides, which means all of the locally generated pollution stays put. It's similar to Tehran in this regard, just on a smaller scale.

    9. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I did read what you wrote, you wrote this:

      No-one said they would be coal jobs

      That's an alt-fact, SuperKendall, Trump did promise to bring back coal jobs. But, just like Trump himself, if the facts on the ground start to look different the easiest way out is to just claim that you never said that, right?

      And to boot, you seem to have an absolutely terrible grasp of geography....

      I would question how that statement has anything at all to do with whether or not Trump promised to bring back coal jobs, but I'm sure you'd like to move the goal posts and distract from the fact that your statement is factually incorrect.

      So it goes these days, impossible to have rational debate when the left area only about talking points regardless of facts.

      I like that alt-statement, because I responded with a bunch of quotes from Trump and Trump supporters. Apparently those are left talking points in your alt-world.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    10. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      So, SuperKendall, why do you think all of those people would say things like that if Trump never promised to bring back the coal industry?

      What I've noticed with Trump is that people hear what they want to hear, and they react appropriately.

      But the other thing I've noticed is that Trump very often lies about a problem and/or its severity, but he can be surprisingly truthful about what he plans to do to solve that problem based on a lie.

      So coal jobs declined most due to the glut of natural gas, so it doesn't make any financial sense to have coal miners work their asses off. But who knows, he might do what he says and try to push it through anyway.

    11. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      What I've noticed with Trump is that people hear what they want to hear, and they react appropriately.

      I think he makes that pretty easy. Take a few examples from his latest press conference:

      We've begun preparing to repeal and replace Obamacare. Obamacare is a disaster, folks. It's a disaster. I know you can say, oh, Obamacare. I mean, they fill up our alleys with people that you wonder how they get there, but they are not the Republican people that our representatives are representing.

      or...

      It's all fake news. It's all fake news. The nice thing is, I see it starting to turn, where people are now looking at the illegal -- I think it's very important -- the illegal, giving out classified information. It was -- and let me just tell you, it was given out like so much.

      I bet 5 different people could read those and come up with 5 different things that he means.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    12. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If you like your health insurance you can keep it."

      Not only was I not able to keep it, I'm paying 3 times the amount from only 4 years ago.

      Take presidential promises with a grain of salt. Republicans or DEMACRATES.

    13. Re:Just one market force - Fracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You were answered rationally with actual facts. Your lie (alt-fact) that no one said coal jobs was cleanly and amply refuted. Your jab at geography was a pathetic wimper bearing falsehood behind it. The debate was rational until you responded to being cleanly and clearly debunked.

  11. Oil Gets Subsidies Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Don't look for crony-free capitalism in big energy. It won't and can't exist. Like capital itself, energy is too important to leave to the whims of the market. And where you don't see in-your-face subsidies (like Ethanol/corn producers), there's back-end subsidies like tax breaks, easements, or permits for getting rid of toxic waste for free. Coal ash is a particularly nasty nasty toxic waste, for example, full of heavy metals and even radio-active materials, that has to be dumped in horrid "ponds" that look horrifying from the air and that the companies promise will NEVER leak into the ground-water while there are ANY family-members of the board of directors still living within 1000 miles of there.

  12. Coal plant up for repairs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, if the plant is about 40 years old, maybe an expensive refurbishment is needed to extend its life. Add in possible coal regulations under the next presidential administration. And the lease expires in 2019. 2019 does sound like a good potential stop date. I hope America doesn't quickly burn through its natural gas boom. Natural gas can be used for cars, airplanes, etc., which coal can't.

    1. Re:Coal plant up for repairs? by Pascoea · · Score: 1

      Natural gas can be used for cars, airplanes, etc., which coal can't. (emphasis mine)

      That's not entirely true. You can turn coal into natural gas, and a bunch of other things. It's expensive, smells horrible, and requires a significant amount of energy, but it can be done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  13. So.... by quantaman · · Score: 1

    Is Trump going to appear with the CEO to take credit for this one as well?

    --
    I stole this Sig
  14. Governmental "market"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article is mostly a lie. They gave up on the plant because the EPA revoked permits on 27 Feb 2015, so they can't run it at full capacity or high efficiency.

  15. Not unexpected - newest unit in 1976 by dbIII · · Score: 2

    This story has been "spun" in all kinds of directions, but when it gets down to it the newest unit was built in 1976 and it's getting increasingly expensive to replace parts piecemeal and keep it running. The lease on the land has come up and the choice was to either pay that new expense on top of the ongoing increasing running costs or give up.
    A lot of units of that type from that time were designed for a 20 to 25 year life.

  16. Well, actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, actually, if you plot pollution over time in major cities, and indicate where landmark environmental acts were passed and enforced, you'lll realize that Ayn Rand did more for the environment than legislation and enforcement. In fact, it will become very clear to you that the legislation has had a minimal affect.

    1. Re: Well, actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol, show me your plot. I'm certain you are lying.

    2. Re: Well, actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ayn Rand didn't do shit to help the environment.

      "Invisible Hand" is Adam Smith, and the term is misused and abused by people who've never read The Wealth of Nations.

  17. We've been down this road before by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "They decided that the plant’s coal-powered electricity just can’t compete with plants burning natural gas."

    If I recall correctly there was a lot of talk of switching over to natural gas back during the oil embargo, then prices massively spiked and decided it would be a bad idea to become too dependent on yet another fossil fuel. And this plant closure is of course only part of the picture, natural gas plants are expected to replace a lot of coal and even some nuclear capacity over the next few decades. Looks like we still haven't learned our lesson about putting most of our eggs in one basket. We need a mix of energy sources (Wind, Solar, Biomass, Nuclear, coal, petroleum, etc) not one "perfect" source that puts our entire society at the behest of one fragile supply chain (or monopoly).

    https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=29952

    1. Re:We've been down this road before by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      totally, except that we need to drop all fossil fuel. Fission (and Fusion in the future) along with geo-thermal makes a great baseload power.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  18. thanks for making Pennsylvania vote correctly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pennsylvania heard the anti-coal speech Hillary strangely dared to give in West Virginia. They did the right thing.

  19. Good idea by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    The Navajo plant outgasses into the Grand Canyon, where sunlight acting on it produces smog. Let's close it and add another unit to Palo Verde.

    1. Re:Good idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it doesn't. Kayenta is 100 miles east of the Grand Canyon, and prevailing winds blow west to east.

    2. Re:Good idea by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      it is the single largest emitter of pollution in the west through all the mid/south forest.
      Rocky Mountain Forest is loaded with Mercury and lots of pollution due to Navajo.
      It will be nice to have this end.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:Good idea by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Kayenta is where the coal mine is located.
      NGS is located in Paige right off the Colorado (read GRAND CANYON), which it uses for cooling.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  20. They're not saying anything. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're just repeating what they heard without knowing what it means. It's a kind of libertarian mantra, like the Buddhist "Ohm". Means nothing but it makes them calmer to say it.

    1. Re:They're not saying anything. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They're just repeating what they heard without knowing what it means. It's a kind of libertarian mantra, like the Buddhist "Ohm".

      Watt?

  21. Energy companies declare war on coal! by whitroth · · Score: 1

    And under the Invisible Hand of the Free Market (tm), which also declared War on Coal!!!

    Oh, yeah, what "government war on coal"? I must have missed that in the corporate change to mountaintop removal, cutting 90% of mining jobs....

  22. Did the Navajo plan for this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hopefully they've been investing their royalties and taxes in planning for this plant's replacement. Though if they had I bet they should have already started production of the new plant...

  23. major polluter of the west by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    THis has been being researched for some time. China is the single largest polluter in western America, EXCEPT for this coal plant. This one has been polluting our forest and western cities for decades.
    Now after this, China is the west's single largest source of pollution. Yes, it make all the way to Denver. The question is, what will the west, or even the world do, to stop them.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  24. Natrual Gas and Trump by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Trump is very likely going to allow the major exporting of oil and nat gas. We will see these go WAY UP IN PRICE in America.
    As long as we invest into nuke power, America will be OK. Otherwise, we are going to see our electricity and nat gas prices go WAY UP, and lose a bunch of our chemical industry jobs.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.