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How is The New York Times Really Doing? (om.co)

Wired magazine did a profile on The New York Times in its this month's issue. Talking about the paper's transition from print to more digital-focus than ever, author Gabriel Snyder wrote, "It's to transform the Times' digital subscriptions into the main engine of a billion-dollar business, one that could pay to put reporters on the ground in 174 countries even if (OK, when) the printing presses stop forever." Veteran journalist Om Malik analyzes the numbers: -> The company reported revenue of nearly $1.6 billion in 2016 -- remarkably consistent with prior years.
-> Print advertising revenue dipped by $70 million year-over-year to $327 million in 2016.
-> Digital advertising revenue, while a meaningful portion of the Times' revenue, did not grow enough to offset vanishing print ad dollars.
-> Total digital ad revenue in 2016 was $206 million, up only 6% from the prior year.
-> The key revenue driver for the New York Times has been its digital subscription business, which added more than half a million paid subscribers in 2016. Thanks in part to interest around the presidential election, the newspaper added 276,000 new digital subscribers in Q4, the single largest quarterly increase since 2011 (the year the pay model was launched).

The Times' digital success is hinged upon two major drivers: affiliate revenues from services like the Wirecutter and digital subscriptions. Advertising might be a good short term bandaid, but the company needs to focus on how to evolve away from it even more aggressively. The Times needs to simplify their sign-up experience and make it easier for people to pay for the subscriptions. As of now, it is like the sound you hear when scratching your nails on a piece of glass.

61 of 408 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    New York Times reports FAKE NEWS! Terrible.
    @donaldjtrump

  2. Kowtowing by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Isn't this sort of thing just kowtowing to Trumps use of "failing" every time he mentions the New York Times in tweets or press conferences? We all know why he does that - spread enough misinformation about a companies situation and eventually enough people get spooked to make it true. The numbers don't show a failing company, they merely show a transitional one.

    1. Re:Kowtowing by jenningsthecat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ... When you can get news that you like from nearly anywhere and for free, why pay for it and why subject yourself to a New York City viewpoint from barely educated and mind warped fanatics?

      "News that you like" is the operative phrase there. I'd like to think that it used to be different, bit I'm not sure it ever was. Maybe the majority always gravitated to the news they 'liked' in favour of the news that did its best to be accurate and unbiased, and maybe the generally more accurate and unbiased news of 40 years ago obscured the fact.

      There's so much at stake now for governments and corporations wanting to control the narrative. 'News', (and I use the term very loosely), is often a make-or-break thing when it comes to elections, IPO's, product launches, sales numbers, law suits, new legislation, and even criminal cases, (to name a few); so simply reporting the facts and adding a bit of insightful analysis is kind of obsolete. The distinctions among news, editorials, and advertising have all but disappeared. If people already have a tendency to choose the (um...let's call it 'reportage') that they like, regardless of its accuracy or relevance, then the market is ripe for hucksters and con men of every stripe looking to sway the opinions of a constituency or a nation. It's no accident that Kellyanne Conjob coined the phrase 'alternative facts'. She was pilloried for it, and rightly so, but in one sense she was just pointing out the nature of today's reality, which is that, for a distressingly large number of people, fact is no different from opinion, and is simply a matter of preference. Our culture seems to have made 'critical faculty' a pejorative term; for the history of why that's so, read John Taylor Gatto, among others.

      In an era when people can hear the 'news' that they prefer, for little or no money, does the NYT have any chance of long-term survival?

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    2. Re:Kowtowing by squiggleslash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People have been claiming newspapers are obsolete in some shape or form for 50 years, ever since television became everyone's primary method for keeping up with the news. In practice, newspapers, while hit, never went away, while TV news has become supplanted by the Internet.

      And who is dominating news on the Internet? Oh, yeah, the newspapers. Most of us have at least one newspaper's website that's on our rotation of sites to check every day, despite the attempts to get us to use news apps or search engine news aggregators - both of which suffer in that they mix the latest from, say, the Daily Mail, with that of The Guardian or Washington Post.

      As for this:

      Few people spend the time to read the entire article when they are looking for headlines and sound bites

      Few do, But few have ever done. You think, if you teleported back to a New York Subway car in the 1940s, every strap hanger was reading the New York Times on the way to work? Go to a London Underground Tube Train in the 1950s, and every passenger was reading The Times, Guardian, or Telegraph?

      There's always been a range of newspapers providing news in different formats for different readers, and the most popular have always been the ones screaming headlines that today we'd call "clickbait", and whose articles are scarcely a few sentences long.

      The New York Times is an exception, because it caters for the market of people who want more. It's always been a small minority that reads it. The difference between the days of paper and today are that all of a sudden the NYT can have an engaged audience that spreads far beyond the range a printed, time critical, newspaper can be delivered within, and that without page limits, its no longer limited to coverage of the region it serves.

      Which is why the New York Times is doing very well right now, when 20 years ago it wasn't.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    3. Re:Kowtowing by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They keep reporting what he actually says, as opposed to what he apparently meant to say... or something. The whole "what happened in Sweden" thing is a perfect example of how Trump makes unhinged and false statements, and then his press team and the legions of true believers will reinterpret those statements so, at least in their minds, he doesn't look, well, unhinged and dishonest. "Ah well, he wasn't talking about a specific event, but you know, general problems in Sweden." How is it that a grown man who is such a tremendous dealmaker needs a full-time public relations team to translate his utterances into something vaguely like the truth? And how is that you can condemn the press for reporting those utterances? Isn't that the press's job? But oh no, because the press doesn't do Conway's job for her, they're "pushing a narrative".

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  3. Hmm by Orgasmatron · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I saw the headline, my first thought was that slashdot had picked up the story about the major newspapers buying fake clicks from Chinese bots to increase their page rank and advertising revenue.

    See here and here (or here).

    --
    See that "Preview" button?
    1. Re:Hmm by lucaiaco · · Score: 4, Informative

      o The average Chinese person has no interest in Trump or the Brexit. The average Chinese has very little interest in Western politics in general. This is anecdotal evidence, but I have lived in HK and Taiwan (which are way more open than mainlanders) and none of my friends read American news (and they were all mostly very westernized). Open any Chinese newspapers, or social network and see how much they care (they don't, and also, you can't because from your post I cantell you have no clue about their culture).
      o Taiwanese, Japanese, and Indians care way more about Trump (especially Indians), and India is an English speaking country. But there is no spike in viewership from these countries.
      o As it has already been pointed out, these numbers are ridiculous compared to the number of speakers of English.
      o Why only these three journals (one of which is banned)?
      o Do you have any actual argument or evidence to support your claim.
      o Please, realize that you are the idiot, your post and your signature are full of contradictions.


      Now, back to the actually rational, non-brainwashed people left in this site. The data seems pretty legitimate, do we know why it hasn't been picked up by anybody (the news is pretty old). A google search returns very few results, and I couldn't find anything debunking it. Any actual, technical idea of why this info should not be trusted?

    2. Re:Hmm by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Kinda hard to judge the figures where there are no references as to where they came from in the links, but there are over 1.2 billion people in China. Anything you say about the "average Chinese" is bound to be wrong for many tens or hundreds of millions of them. There are only about 65 million people in the whole UK, so mild interest from China would likely constitute a massive boost in readership for a UK newspaper.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  4. Hard to read by blogagog · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They've got to get over their hatred of Trump before they can succeed. Even anti-Trump people want to hear about something else once in a while.

    1. Re:Hard to read by EzInKy · · Score: 2, Funny

      More people hate Trump than like him. You are saying they should censor themselves then?

      P.S. I'm really worried about Sweden. The latest terrorist attack against their country never made the mainstream news.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    2. Re:Hard to read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even as someone who has no particular like for Trump, it's getting old fast. The anti-Trumpers are raving like lunatics and their little fits of rage have worn thin. For people who ride him about tweeting about the irrelevant issues, they sure don't bring a lot to the table themselves. At the rate they're going they may have me voting for him by next election just to put them off.

    3. Re:Hard to read by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Can't really avoid reporting what the POTUS and wider government does, and it's not really their fault if honest reporting tends to paint Trump in a bad light. Maybe they can lighten it up with more cartoons or something.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:Hard to read by squiggleslash · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You mean they should stop reporting on the President of the United States when he does something with serious consequences if whatever he did happens to be a bad thing?

      That's... not the way the press is supposed to act in a free society, FWIW. The Press is supposed to cover what the government does and what the impact of that is. You might not like that, but the rest of us prefer it that way.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    5. Re:Hard to read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You mean like Fox and Breitbart got over ranting about Obama and Hillary? That certainly hurt them. Face it, never letting go is now seen as the winning strategy, both in terms of news and politics.

    6. Re:Hard to read by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So now we've moved the goalposts from "fake news" to "blowing the subject out of proportion". I guess that's what happened with Flynn. It went from "claims that he was chatting with the Russians are fake news" to "the media blew it totally out of proportion" to "he didn't do anything wrong but pissed Pence off."

      Nixon's supporters did much the same thing, invoking the same trajectory of "made up" to "not a big deal", and it ended up with him abandoning the Presidency before the inevitable impeachment and removal from office.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:Hard to read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm really worried about Sweden

      What you are, actually, is ignorant of the facts. Talk to a cop who has to deal with what's going on there. Or better yet, try living with it yourself for a week or two.

      This guy caught heat for being honest about it.

      But you can be honest about it without risking public backlash, so why not try it?

    8. Re:Hard to read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Trump's election represented a repudiation of "got'cha" journalism. We have "gotcha" fatigue as a society. With media, it was always, "Forget about policies for a second, people... he SAID THIS DUMB REMARK! Got'cha, Donald! They can't vote for you now! Time to accept an establishment candidate!"

      We're tired of being told who to vote for because somebody's remarks upset elite professors and business owners. They act like outrageous comments should automatically invalidate policy ideas. "Paul Krugman thinks Donald Trump is a real dummy, so you'd better drop Drump like a hot potato!" The middle and working classes view people like Krugman as the drivers of the bus that drove them straight off of a cliff. So we don't care when Krugman plays the "got'cha" game by telling us how Trump's off-the-cuff comment proves he really doesn't understand economics. Krugman's economic ideas sucked for us, anyway.

      What people wanted was an earnest champion of the middle and working classes, not someone that says, "You're job isn't coming back. Undergo some expensive training for a new one that hopefully won't disappear like the last one. Oh, and did I mention that we need more free trade?" You couldn't combat middle and working class anger with simple "got'cha" tactics forever. It was intellectually dishonest and the public now sees through it.

      And that, my friends, is why people are calling the media dishonest. Not because of any outright lies or fabrications. It's because the public gets that "got'cha" journalism is just a way for the media to try and sway public opinion with admitting their real positions on issues. "Forget what Trump says about China... he's a misogynist!" We know the truth: The elite think middle America is stupid and deserves to be ripped apart by free trade. "Got'cha" won't work anymore.

  5. Failing business by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    NYT does not strike me to be a failing business. At least NYT does not have to resort to stiffing contractors like Trump to turn a profit.

  6. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

    Really, I have to give them credit where credit is due: by repeatedly pointing out errors (however trivial) out of the tens of thousands of news stories that are published every day, they've managed to get their supporters to the point where they'll trust a new story on www.siteiveneverheardofbefore.com/newishstuff/hillaryclintonpedophilering.html more than they will an actual newspaper. It's a real masterstroke in terms of controlling the narrative. "Anything negative you hear about me, it's fake, because there exist cases where newspapers have made errors, and we've selectively presented you only with those cases to create a narrative for you that newspapers are packed full of fakery." Not just newspapers - fact checkers, peer-reviewed articles, even official government statistics - all fake, because they've been presented with every case people can get their hands of of error, without the balancing context of the 10000x more that wasn't in error.

    In the words of XKCD: "Dear God, I would like to file a bug report". ;)

    It's the same thing that contributed to the Challenger explosion. They had a nice clean graph in front of them that plotted O-ring failures vs. temperature. There was no clear trend visible on the graph. The problem was that they omitted the successes, the cases where there were no O-ring failures. Here's what it looked like with that added in. All of the sudden there's a very clear trend of failure increasing at low temperatures - in fact, every low temperature launch had had O-ring failures, while very few high-temperature launches had. By being selective in what data you present (accidentally in that case, on purpose in the present case), you can get people to believe precisely the opposite of what is true.

    --
    I'll never forget the last thing grandma said to me before she died: "What are you doing in here with that knife?!?"
  7. Re:Failing, obviously by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The GOD EMPEROR spoke. HIS word is law. All praise Trump!

    Trumpmen!

    Trump is definitely helping the NYT to succeed, even if that's not his intention. By singling out the NYT he's giving them a legitimacy as a voice for those that dislike Trump (which according to polls is well over half the nation). If he really wanted to hurt the NYT, which his words imply, he should stop talking to them and stop talking about them.

    Everytime he bashes the NYT 100,000 people wonder what it is they said to upset him and go read the paper. Same with Saturday Night Live, the only reason I've watched it a few times is to go see what Trump was complaining about (and if he had a legitimate beef), I know I'm not the only one doing this.

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
  8. Clickbaiting by tomhath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Slashdot posts a couple of articles a week that invite Trump bashing. This one is a perfect example, you see "New York Times" in the headline and you know there will be a couple of hundred posts, most of which will mention Trump.

    1. Re:Clickbaiting by gtall · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I rather put it that Trump posts enough stupid things every week to invite Trump bashing. Live by the media, die by the media.

    2. Re:Clickbaiting by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Like the Microsoft bashing and Apple bashing and Firebox bashing and systemd bashing stories, Trump is just an easy target. The easiest, in fact, because you can guarantee that if you posted on story a day he would have said something stupid in the last 24 hours.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Clickbaiting by trawg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is it though? I'm not American but share the rest of the world's fascination with the crazy shit Trump says, but I don't follow him on Twitter or read everything he says - but even /I/ know he regularly refers to the NYTimes as "the failing NYTimes".

      As he's the President of the United States, whether or not he's using the 140 character limit of Twitter to say things that are trivially provably false I think is extremely important. If the NYTimes is failing then Trump is saying a true thing.

      If it's not failing, then he's making a statement as if it's a fact that is at best just completely unsubstantiated, and at worst a complete lie to push some other agenda. Given his position in the world, it's important to try to establish a baseline for how useful his word is.

      So far it doesn't seem to be very useful.

  9. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by red+crab · · Score: 2

    You forgot to mention Fox News there. I think it outclasses NYT in all the aspects you have mentioned.

  10. No longer all the news that fits by bdh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem is that the NYT no longer meets their motto of "all the news that fits, we print" (apparently it's not "fit to print", but that's a quibble).

    Rightly or wrongly (and I'd argue wrongly), they've embraced "advocacy journalism". Having a monoculture is never a good thing, because it renders the entire organization vulnerable to a common flaw. The NYT embraces diversity in every way, except in the most important one: thought. Politically, they are a monoculture, and that hurts them.

    The problem isn't that lockstep ideology renders their editorial positions predictable; that's fine. It's the fact that it affects their news coverage, and it affects it negatively. When I'm reading a news story, I shouldn't be able to tell what the writer's opinions on the matter are, and yet in far too many cases, it's obvious. Worse, it's not only affected how stories are covered, but whether they get covered at all.

    The most damning criticism of the NYT I've heard was a friend of mine who cancelled her subscription a few years ago. Her reason was that she was "tired of hearing people discussing controversies I'd never heard of". When newspapers decide not to report on a story because they feel it might empower their ideological opponents, they're not being reporters, they're being advocates. There's nothing wrong with advocacy, but you should at least be honest about it.

    And, as the saying goes, "that's how you get Trump". How could an organization the size of NYT get the election so wrong? Because they were looking at it with blinders on. They may have put on the blinders intentionally, but their readers didn't. And yet their readers still suffered the effects of the blinders, too.

    1. Re:No longer all the news that fits by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Informative

      Elections are never a sure thing. Even fivethirtyeight was weighted towards Clinton, but everything has an error margin, and any prediction of something as large and complex as hundreds of millions of voters in what amounts to fifty separate elections, each with its own dynamics, is inevitably going to have a significant margin of error. For chrissakes, even many Republicans expected, and probably hoped Trump would lose (as is evidenced by the chaos now surrounding repealing and replacing Obamacare, as it turns out no Republican in Congress, save perhaps for Rand Paul, ever actually believed they would ever be in a position to replace Obamacare).

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:No longer all the news that fits by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There has always been a bias in the press. If you think the big press agencies and newspapers now are bad, open up a newspaper from the 18th or 19th centuries.

      The best solution isn't to abandon papers like the NYT, which despite any bias, still remains one of the best news gathering organizations in history. The solution is to find multiple sources.

      And the anti-Trump bias extended a lot further than allegedly left-leaning press. A lot of Republicans were alarmed by Trump's rise, and remain pretty skeptical even now. Even Fox News, while generally the most pro-Trump of the big news sources, has had its problems with Trump. He is an "atypical" candidate to put it bluntly, and how does one cover such a candidate, when his supporters are willing to overlook, or outright support his more outrageous statements, and yet are so thin-skinned that anyone reporting those statements is accused of bias? How do you report "just the facts" about someone who happily dispenses with facts whenever it pleases him?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:No longer all the news that fits by bdh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Elections are never a sure thing.

      Absolutely true. But the NYT (and others) was not reporting the possibility of a Hillary win, they were debating the size of the landslide that she was going to win. That's why readers were so stunned. The NYT had not only not reported on the possibility of a Trump win, they had openly, and publicly, dismissed it.

      This was a repeat of the infamous Pauline Kael line back in 1980, where Reagan's victory over Carter stunned the NYT, because "no one I know voted for Reagan". If a reporter cannot claim to have met a single person who voted for a president that wins in a landslide, they are living in a bubble and need to get out more. And that's the crux of their problem - they are living in an insular bubble, and they're only marginally aware of it. The lack of awareness alone damages their credibility.

      For a news source that claims to be authoritative, not being aware of its' own shortcomings shows significant ignorance. And who's going to trust an ignorant news source?

    4. Re:No longer all the news that fits by penandpaper · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well said. Dishonesty in the news isn't only about getting the facts wrong. It's is also about what facts you don't include. I.e. Lies of omission are a big problem.

      If all you do is report on one side of an argument is it really surprising that anyone on "that side" think of you dishonest? The best example I can think of is immigration. The argument has been framed as "racists hate immigration" and "immigration helps everyone". It is not the full story even if the "immigration helps everyone" is true. What is missing is "illegal" and what it means to allow immigration from places that have violent ideologues. It is just crazy especially when you consider that we (even with the temporary ban) allow more immigration than any other nation.

      Couple that with extreme political correct speech and it becomes infuriating to be on the counter side of any main stream media position. This isn't' a new phenomenon. It has been around for years and before Trump. Romney is sexist because 'binders full of women". McCain is racist because reasons.

    5. Re:No longer all the news that fits by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      And there was a point during the election when a landslide Clinton victory seemed likely. But what of it? Papers having been making wrong calls for as long as there have been elections and newspapers. Remember "Dewey defeats Truman"?

      The other thing about all of this that bothers me is that people seem to be confused about what constitutes "reporting" and what constitutes "opinion and analysis". Op-ed pieces are renowned for their bias, and in fact that's the whole point. Now it is true that there is a subtler kind of bias elsewhere in a newspaper, but a lot of what people attack and declare "fake news" is often the op-ed and "analysis" pieces, and if I can criticize newspapers for that, it's that I find they often shove some of the op-ed stories on to the main page of their website. I don't think that's an issue of bias so much as it is deliberate click-bait, in that if you punch up your main web page with stories like "Just how big will the Clinton landslide be?" you'll get a lot more hits than more mundane stories reporting the daily grind of a presidential campaign. The latter, even in this last election, can often be pretty fucking boring "Clinton attended a luncheon of the so-and-sos, and had a rally at such and such a place, and the polls shows she's leading by x% in California."

      To my mind that's the real problem here, not a bias specifically, at least not political bias, but a constant need to sex everything up. But come on, that's not even new either. Every edition of a newspaper has to have a headline, whether the underlying story deserves it or not. That's the nature of newspapers for over two hundred years now.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:No longer all the news that fits by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 3, Informative

      The problem is that the NYT no longer meets their motto of "all the news that fits, we print" (apparently it's not "fit to print", but that's a quibble).

      Of course you realize (and for those that don't actually know) that the actual quote is, "All the News That's Fit to Print" (printed in a box in the upper left hand corner of the front page on the physical paper since about 1896) and what you quoted is a really old joke.

      From The New York Times:

      The paper's motto, "All the News That's Fit to Print", appears in the upper left-hand corner of the front page.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    7. Re:No longer all the news that fits by Leuf · · Score: 2

      The US is 65th in percentage of foreign born people (2014, NPR) and bounces around between 15th and 30th in immigration per capita. So yes, I guess the papers should do a better job educating you about that.

  11. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by Chriscypher · · Score: 2

    Don't forget Tufte's Challenger graph, which provides really the best visualization of the data. He's a master of visual communication.

    If the information was presented in his fashion, a no-launch decision would have clearly been a no-brainer. This is why the soft arts are essential for engineers too.

    https://groups.nceas.ucsb.edu/...

    --
    "You have liberated me from thought."
  12. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by dbIII · · Score: 4, Informative

    They didn't need that graph. Glass transition temperature in polymers is taught to just about every engineering student on the planet in first year materials science subjects.
    As Feynman showed it was a management fuckup of ignoring experts.

  13. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by Rei · · Score: 2

    There were a lot of contributing factors, but yes, this sadly was one. The Thiokol engineers were against launch, but they failed to make a sufficient case as to why exactly they felt the O-rings were unsafe (there actually was a Thiokol document showing that not only was O-ring failure high at low temperatures but that the second O-ring ceased to be redundant - but they didn't have the document available to them). The Shuttle program managers were getting mad at them for insisting on delays due to the low temperatures without being able to back it up (one of them said something along the lines of "My god, Thiokol - when do you want me to launch, April?") and eventually the Thiokol management dropped their objections (even though the engineers were still strongly against launch). The engineers all gathered round to watch the launch on TV, thinking it was going to explode on the pad. When it lifted off they all breathed a sigh of relief, only to have it dashed during the explosion.

    --
    I'll never forget the last thing grandma said to me before she died: "What are you doing in here with that knife?!?"
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  16. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

    How do we fix this?

    Seems like either we have to fight harder to make people see fake news and these dodgy blog sites/social media posts for what they are, or we have to give in and use all the same tactics to create a counter-narrative.

    The same technique is being used to try to influence the up-coming French election, to get a far right candidate elected. Do we start posting counter-memes and creating blogs full of lies about her and linking to them on Facebook.fr?

    Perhaps there is a third way, but it's risky. Create memes and fake stories supporting the far right candidate, but make them so bad and so obviously fake that they make people more critical and likely to reject them. The danger is that people are so stupid they believe them anyway. That already happened in the UK with stories about the EU.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  17. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And this will be a fair comparison the moment when:
    a) Trump prints retractions of his errors when they're pointed out to him
    b) The signal-to-noise ratio of the Times approaches anything near Trump's utterances

  18. Newspapers used to be named Austin American Democr by raymorris · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't think it was ever more objective, certainly not since William Randolph Hearst in the 1890s. Newspapers used to be more honest about their political leanings. For example, the Austin American Statesman used to be called the Austin American Democrat. Similar names can be found in smaller cities, the newspaper will be named Middletown Liberal Times or whatever.

      The LA Times had a very clear policy of simply not reporting anything that didn't support their political leanings. In 1884 the ignored Grover Cleveland's election to president for several days, pretty much pretending it didn't happen.

  19. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by NatasRevol · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does trump a) apologize for his mistakes or b) blame someone else & double down?

    --
    There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  20. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by NatasRevol · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Which is why Donald Trump is more believable than the NY Times

    Only if you are a self-insulated, ignorant non-reader who only wants to hear your point of view from anyone willing to tell it.

    --
    There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  21. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by RavenLrD20k · · Score: 2

    I see no votes on parent. As of this posting (Score:0). Click on the word Score and the modal displays "No comment history available." Anonymous Cowards start with a score of 0 here. Always have.

  22. Paid news is hopeless against the internet by zerofoo · · Score: 2

    There are so many free sources of news, it may be impossible to sell it in the near future.

    It may also be impossible for commercial news sources to compete with the millions of "news enthusiasts" that post and analyze news simply for the fun of it.

    Events are posted in near real-time on youtube and thousands of people dissect and analyze Wikileaks releases the instant they hit the internet.

    There is no commercial news room that can scale out to that size.

    Yes, the availability of so much news does force the consumer to filter out bullshit for him/her self - but many times you are getting bullshit from paid mainstream media - so you have to do the due diligence anyway if you want to stay informed.

    Good luck MSM - you are competing with the entire internet - and I don't think you will win.

  23. Re:news will die forever mark my words by RabidReindeer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The human brain is wired for pessimism. It's a survival reflex. We want to read about bad news so as to be better prepared in case something like that comes our way.

    Perhaps the original "fake news", in fact, came from our religious leaders. They tell us that sacrificing a hecatomb to Zeus or chanting a magic spell such as "There is no God but God and Mohammed is his Prophet" or "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour" will ward off evil. Bad news reminds us that reality is different. That prayer and a positive attitude stop short of being able to halt the anvil falling from above, that mountains have more faith that they won't cast themselves into the sea than we do otherwise (and that TNT has more faith than either us or mountains). That it truly does rain upon both the Just and the un-Just, although the un-Just can generally afford umbrellas.

    A steady diet of bad news isn't healthy either, though. Which is why we like our news sources salted with tales of baby ducks being rescued from storm drains.

  24. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 2, Informative
  25. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 2, Interesting

    and that is exactly the problem. The AP and every major United States news outlet is more then just 'selective' about what data they present.
    They may 'pretend' what they are giving you is the news, but what they really give you is 'the news' they think 'should be' .
    Here is a good example that was given to me by a ex-girlfriend who was a catholic and worked in a local news room.
    Standing orders, if there was a story that came across the wire and it involved child molestation and a priest it would be presented if not a lead story that night. Anything else the involved molestation of a child, by a rabbi, a pastor, or a teacher was not newsworthy.

    The girl quit when she was given footage taken at a peaceful prolife march and given the orders 'cut this footage to make these people look nuts'.

    For another example, go back and watch the news footage of Clinton loosing. Note the emotional content of the 'news' being presented. It is obvious that every major news outlet , ( fox is only half a major outlet) is entirely staffed by people who considered it a 'tragedy' that Clinton didn't win.

    Not that there are any 'unbiased' alternative outlets. Heck even Slashdot shows some bias it is hard to get away from, the problem is all of the American news outlets I'm aware of are much more interested in ratings and viewership then truth or objectivity. That is in many ways the fault of the consumers who have stopped demanding it and instead consume whatever is more 'pleasing' to them.

    --
    âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
  26. Re:Trump on Sweden by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Thank you for providing an example of how Trump's supporters happily reinterpret his statements so as to at least try to make them jive with reality.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  27. Re:How hard is it, really? by gtall · · Score: 2

    I am signed up as well, but still pissed about how they did it. I was enticed by the $15/mo. trial subscription for a one month trial. Then they simply continued charging me. I thought it was deceitful. I only put up with it because I rather like the in-depth journalism.

    I think what bothers the Trump supporters is that the stories are not supporting of Trump. I would argue that the major events covered are simply not supported by Trump's world view....well, he doesn't have a view so much as an ego, and the stories do not support that ego.

  28. Re: Echo-chamber fake news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Here you go: https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2013reports/201310053fr.pdf
    start on page 11 where they admit the targeting of conservatives was improper

    The question is why nobody got fired/jailed for improper persecution of conservatives at the IRS. Why did e.g. Lois Lerner get to resign and keep the pension, instead of ending up in jail. Did Obama intervene, or was it somebody else? Who covered it up?

    Pres. Trump, it's not too late to appoint a special prosecutor! Subverting the Constitution using administrative powers is no small feat. Heads of these eggs should roll. Obama may be immune, but the underlings can still be indicted to stop these kinds of crime in the future.

  29. Re: Echo-chamber fake news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm a Trump supporter, and you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

    I know Trump is a narcissistic asshole who doesn't give a shit about the truth. He's playing the game your ilk invented, and doing it better than you ever imagined possible. You're just angry that your side lost, but you know they're all playing the same game.

    You're either a moron or intellectually dishonest if you actually believe that Hillary or the Democrats have some kind of moral superiority. They lie, cheat, and steal just as much, if not more.

  30. Re:You forgot to mention their liberal bias by D00MSlayer · · Score: 2

    Well maybe if conservative republicans stopped acting like giant douchebags who seek profit over duty, then they might actually write some favorable articles.

    Any bias that exists is born out of republicans' general hatred for doing their constitutionally-mandated civic duties in a manner that clearly displays their level of shill.

  31. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by Shane_Optima · · Score: 2
    Yup. And that's just the tip of the clusterfuck iceberg. Anyone who is interested should read Feynman's appendix in its entirity, which he insisted should be added to the Roger's Commission report on threat of having his name removed from the whole thing.

    He believed that NASA's delusional bureaucracy was ultimately to blame and it needed to be torn down entirely and rebuilt. The other members of the commission disagreed, which is pretty much why two decades later the crew of the Columbia died. Sadly, a narrative of organizational incompetence is extremely hard to keep alive in the mainstream media, so in the minds of most people they're still just random tragedies... an unavoidable price of space flight.

    Two other things worth noting about Feynman's assessment: he was strongly impressed by the software systems of the Shuttle, considering it to be much more robust than the hardware (not the sort of thing one often hears these days), and the coda to his appendix is, of course, a timeless one worth quoting:

    For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.

  32. Re:Kids these days... by OhPlz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No it can't. There's value in local news teams that you don't get with national or international outfits. That's why the televised networks usually have local news followed by national and world news. Most people are primarily interested in their area, and only the top stories beyond.

  33. Re:Kids these days... by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Gotta agree with sibling, and can drill down even further...

    There's a reason I still support and read our local paper, printed in the town nearest my house; this is a town that has barely 2,000 souls in it, mind. Oh, and the "local" TV news around here covers and centers on Portland, OR - which is 50 miles away.

    The NYT isn't going to tell me the school board minutes, the city council minutes, or the local budget/tax/bond stuff. I don't expect the NYT to print a picture of my kid making the winning score at the last high school basketball game, or remind me when stuff like the Friendship Jamboree is coming up. No coupons for the local grocery store are going to be found in the NYT, either.

    --

    Also, there is a hazard in consolidation, one we can already see. The US (and UK, and etc) have a grand tradition of slanted/yellow journalism that is present even today, denials be damned. Only difference is back then, the papers proudly proclaimed their slants up-front (today? Not so much - you usually get denials from 'em). The best way to counterbalance that bias was to have competing outlets with different slants, then you could compare/contrast to get the actual truth of a given matter if you wanted it.

    Besides, do you really want to go back to the days (1970's-1990s or so) where a select few outlets were the literal 'gatekeepers of truth'? Personally, well, fuck that. Let the marketplace win out - webhosting is cheap, the code for it is free of cost, and it doesn't take much more than a 10th grade education these days to set up a working bit of homegrown journalism. The market can (and in my opinion will) choose the winners and losers from the lot (see also The Drudge Report --love it or hate it-- as an example of a local gossip rag/site that exploded and went international.)

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  34. Re:Failing, obviously by orgelspieler · · Score: 2

    According to polls, he had about a 25% chance of winning the electoral college, if you can actually do math and understand how statistics work (HuffPo obviously didn't understand that). Fivethirtyeight pretty much nailed it; they predicted 4 possible scenarios that had equivalent odds of happening, and the one that occurred was one of them almost exactly.

  35. Re:Echo-chamber fake news by NatasRevol · · Score: 2

    Just because people believe something doesn't make it true.

    BTW, Trump supporters take him seriously, but not literally. They aren't parsing his words for nuance and subtlety.

    And yet he constantly shows everyone that he should be taken exactly literally.

    --
    There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  36. Re:Kids these days... by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 2

    I live in a town of 5000 people and while the local weekly newspaper has shrunk somewhat over the past 20-odd years that I've been here, it's still loaded with advertising, mostly for local businesses. I'd say there's about a 50/50 mix of editorial content vs advertising in that paper. I have no idea how they manage that; they do have a full-time advertising sales guy who runs around town flogging it.

    --
    If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
  37. Re:Kids these days... by epyT-R · · Score: 2

    Seriously? In the era of overt bias and propaganda, 'fake news', and 'alternative facts'?

  38. Re:Race to the bottom by Shane_Optima · · Score: 2

    I can't help it if the journalists in this country are dead set on proving Trump right. He should be the one person it should be possible to oppose by sticking to talking about normal, sensible truth but when faced with such a jackass the media can't help but lie and blither a stream of irrelevances. It's been very illuminating.

    That doesn't mean they lie more than he does (of course not), but they are a much deeper and more durable fixture of American (and world) culture than the shit talking 70 year old buffoon in the White House.