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Ask Slashdot: How Does One Freely Use Bitcoin In the Land of the Free?
New submitter devrtm writes: It appears that Bitcoin, a currency designed with anonymity in mind, can be effectively used almost anywhere in the world, except in a few countries where it is regulated, and in one country where you can only use it if you give up your privacy. That country is the United States. I have accumulated quite a few BTC from the currency's early days where block rewards were still at $50. There was a period of time where one could get a nearly anonymous debit card, or use BTC online with merchants. Nowadays, non-U.S. payment providers no longer issue debit cards to the U.S. residents and the U.S.-based merchants accepting BTC are nearly extinct. The only way to use BTC in the U.S. is to convert it to USD. Unfortunately, that conversion requires giving up your personal information to a U.S.-based BTC payment processor, and there are rumors that signing up for those services raises red flags with certain three letter acronym organizations. I have nothing to hide, but I do value my privacy. Can one freely and anonymously live off of their Bitcoin wallet in the U.S.? I am afraid the answer is no. Does anyone have an experience that proves me wrong? Please share.
If you want privacy use cash with people who don't know you.
So you want to trade your BTC for goods and services but not pay taxes on the source of the income (aka "maintain privacy")? I don't think that will fly well in the US, which is why you don't see many outlets available.
I've had no problem spending BTC. Just buy from abroad and have it imported (and as long as they call it a "promotional" item - They all do - it doesn't even cost you any more anyway).
Is it really as surprise that a scheme designed to facilitate money laundering is not allowed without a paper trail in the US?
While there are many people that are willing to exchange goods and services for BitCoin; it is not a recognized currency by anyone that actually matters (ie banks and governments). Make no mistake, just about everything is priced in a government back currency (dollars, Yen, Pounds, etc) and in addition banks and governments do not accept BitCoin as a way to cover debts and obligations.
In addition BitCoin is slow, not entirely trust worthy (you can argue the fact that one farming group controls more than 50% of the computing power used to back bitcoin is a real problem), doesn't understand the basics of monetary policy (price fluctations anyone), let alone a way to implement it. These could all be contributing factors as to why large organizations are not willing to exchange goods and services for bitcoin.
Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
Instructions unclear, dick stuck in baklava
It appears that Bitcoin, a currency designed with anonymity in mind
WRONG.
Your question boils down to, "How do I avoid capital gains taxes on my Bitcoin earnings?" That's problematic, as you can imagine.
My how times change. "Back in the day", anyone voicing most of the opinions here so far would be modded into oblivion...
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
If you're a US resident you would have to pay income tax or at least declare it as an investment income regardless of how you convert it. You can go to any other country to cash out or convert it into goods, even if you could buy a car with it, you have to pay the tax man. And that's not unique to the US.
The tax man however does not necessarily need to know where the money has been or currently is (how you are investing or realizing the profit is not recorded) as long as you don't use the money.
Monetary transactions above a certain value also need to be recorded, again, not unique to the US. If you make any further investment (house or otherwise) with the money/value, the bank also wants to know where it came from for credit reasons (to make sure you didn't owe a loanshark).
In none of those instances do you need to declare the full transaction history of your investments or profits. The "problem" with Bitcoin is that it explicitly does not offer anonymity (you can't launder bitcoins) and gives you a full transaction history regardless. To request anonymity from an explicitly public ledger is ludicrous. You can only hide the owner of a bitcoin through technical means as you can attempt to hide any transaction on the Internet but it's only incidental and also detrimental to the Bitcoin system.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Concur.
Bitcoin as a financial system is made impractical in the long term by the fact that it is limited in the total number that can be issued. After the last one is issued, the intent is for the value of them to simply go up. It was proposed as an in-built method to combat inflation, however what it really is is a way for the inventor to pad his own pockets by owning a significant fraction of the total number of bitcoins that can ever be produced. In a best-case scenario, this means he now owns a fraction of the world wealth (assuming the dystopian future where everyone uses bitcoins).
The fact that it is really a huge piece of social engineering is what disinclines most governments from being too terribly thrilled about its adoption. Ironically, this may be what the inventor was counting on to promote it's adoption, reasoning that the more that governments resisted it, the more that certain groups would promote it as a form of protest/defiance.
So, if you want to adopt bitcoins, by all means, be part of a piece of social engineering malware. Bitcoin transactions are not what you want for privacy anyway. If you want to maintain private money transactions, cash is always an option.
All money is made-up bullshit. Oh, here.. have some numbers on paper or cheap metal disk... or just a swipe of a magnetic strip.
Anything that can be traded for goods and services at least within a certain region is "money."
I don't understand how you can't understand that -- unless you're a loon who thinks money is still backed by precious metals... which it hasn't been since before banks that pay interest for accounts began. When you put money in the bank, it doesn't sit there... and it isn't loaned out once, but instead 9 or more times simultaneously.... even though that much money doesn't exist -- it's called the multiplier effect. google it.
Made-up bullshit backed by 20,000 nuclear warheads == not bullshit.
Funny, it is easier to buy illegitimate stuff, like DDoS, and whatever else the silkroads sell than to spend BTC in legal ways, even if you pay taxes. I wonder what all those professional miners do with their BTCs.
I think people matter.
If enough people use BTC as money, then it's money.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
So go on the "dark web" trade your bit-coin for drugs. Sell drugs to locals and take cash. Bingo! Really, this isn't a difficult situation at all.
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
Also true...
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
"It appears that Bitcoin, a currency designed with anonymity in mind..."
FALSE.
Bitcoin was NEVER meant to provide anonymity. Can we please stop with this misconception?
Russia, Mainland China, Burma to name just a few.
The United States has been racing into the abyss in competition with G.B. for a number of years. The United States is in the lead, by a narrow margin.
All money is made-up bullshit.
Yes, but the US dollar is backed with the US banking system, the US government, and the US military. Bitcoin is backed by the fact that the exchange you use maybe doesn't want to rip you off today.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
There are some online retailers that accept bitcoin. Since there isn't a credit card involved, there is no reason why you need to give them your real name. Checkout is a breeze too, relatively speaking.
Depending on where you are, you might be able to do small cash transactions for people in your area that are looking to buy.
If you need a lot of cash quickly, there is no practical way around it - you'll need to register with an exchange, under your real name. Depending on how large, you may need to go through the KYC stuff too. Not exactly a bitcoin-specific problem. You'll run into the same thing selling gold or silver to a dealer too.
No matter what, you need to keep track and pay your taxes. Selling them for cash or buying goods or services with them is all the same. Any half-decent accountant will be able to handle this. If you got your coins from mining, tell your accountant to claim a zero basis. The value of bitcoins in the early days was negligible anyway, so you won't be overpaying your taxes by very much, and it is WAY easier than choosing a FIFO/LIFO policy, documenting it, and pulling historic price data for each purchase. If you have receipts for mining equipment, talk to your accountant about deducting them.
See that "Preview" button?
Doesn't Amazon take bitcoin payments? I'd buy Amazon gift cards and sell them on ebay for a minuscule loss.Hell pawn shops buy gift cars now days if you want cash.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
When you can pay your taxes with it, let me know. Until then it isn't money.
Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
Cash is getting hammered more and more, reducing the high value bills while still having inflation. If you carry too much, you get asked questions when spending and can your bills confiscate for no reason other than the amount you are carry (ready about civil forfeiture). I could see a use for digital currency. While you can argue that the creator have tons of bitcoin and is rich, the blockchain show early bitcoin never moved/used at all. In fact, the guy completely disappears from the map years ago... he could actually be dead and nobody knows... it's a possibility but definitely not certainty that he did that for money! Bitcoin transactions were not about privacy, they were about permissionless and censor resistant! Even if you live in an oppressive government, the bank cannot froze your account. Bitcoin adoption is slow, mainly because most governments ask for KYC policy and that's a bit awkward with any blockchain tech. If the web has been controlled by bureaucrats at start, we would have to register to surf, comments and make web sites. Just like the email and torrent protocol, the bitcoin protocol cannot be shut down, it's not going anyway... it's an experimental currency that, as you said, have a controlled and limited inflation. You can argue it's bad, there is hundreds of inflated currencies out there with inflation, let there be one to try if it's working without.
What seems to be what the real question he is asking is, "how do I use Bitcoin in a way that bypasses my legal obligations to pay tax on the money I have earned through the rise in bitcoin price.", incidentally this is not just a US situation, most countries of the world will consider your gain in price is a taxable asset.
Sounds like hell to me. Somalia? Sudan? Yemen?
Bitcoin is classify as money in: - Europe (Except France) http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/up... - Japan http://asia.nikkei.com/Politic... - Mexico https://sppld.sat.gob.mx/pld/i... - Afghanistan http://www.coindesk.com/how-bi... - Czech Republic http://www.rozhlas.cz/zpravy/e... - South Africa http://www.treasury.gov.za/com... I don' have links but I heard it's also consided a currency in - Russia, Switzerland and Nigera
Were you confused by the fact the parent listed them separately?
There are usually people in populated areas who are looking to trade BTC for FRN's. Do you have thousands to offload?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Devrtm (the original poster) can donate his/her Bitcoin to any IRS 501(c)(3) tax exempt charity(ies) that accept(s) Bitcoin, for example the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Devrtm can then enjoy a U.S. personal income tax deduction for the full, fair market value of his/her donation, with no capital gains tax owed. It may be possible to make the donation anonymously, but Devrtm must keep records of the donation in his/her personal files, to document the tax deduction in case there is a future IRS inquiry. The tax deduction will likely be worth substantially more than what Devrtm paid (if anything) to obtain the Bitcoin. If Devrtm is subject to state or local income tax then there may also be charitable deductions allowed in those tax returns.
Go to Toronto, find a BTC ATM, cash out, convert to USD, go back to US and use said USD anonymously anywhere except online
That's a good way to get added to watch lists and have gov't agents seize your cash, unless/until you can prove that cash has not been involved in any crime before or after you came into possession of it.
Yes, the government does not do this. Note the hassles they had with bearer bond. They don't like cash as it cannot be easily traced. Serial numbers on bills are generally not. Watch bank tellers sometime. It is possible that serials could be tracked but if that direction were imminent there would not be the discussion about removing $100 and maybe $50 bills from circulation. That would more readily force use of banks.
Bitcoin is in principle like cash. But like it with possibly huge bills. USG has too many control freaks, does not want to facilitate uncontrolled transactions. 'Note too the facts about police stealing (confiscating...pick word) cash they catch people carrying around. They claim it's to stop drugs, terror, whatever villain du jour, but more to the point it makes it harder to just use cash. You might lose it next time you hit a speed trap or next time local police hear you carry it around and see you driving or whatnot.
Complaints to govt about "asset forfeiture" might eventually reduce this, but there is a crapload of corruption there as many departments get their funds, salaries etc. from those assets.
He means the FDIC.
The banking system in the US is intrinsically tied back to the Federal Reserve. Which is part of the US government.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Uranus.
All money is made-up bullshit.
Yes, but the US dollar is backed with the US banking system,
The US Federal Reserve is a privately owned institution.
the US government, and the US military.
Are clients of this private banking system.
Bitcoin is backed by the fact that the exchange you use maybe doesn't want to rip you off today.
However even if a bitcoin's value is zero, you still have a bitcoin.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Let me know when any of these countries will accept it for tax payments.
Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
Where we're going, there are no governments.
I call "where I'm going" the afterlife.
I don't expect to be able to vote once I get there.
Then again, I don't expect to need any money either.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I've never seen a more ignorant post.
You express zero idea understanding fungibility to eight fucking decimal places.
NO bitcoiner gives a shit about early adopters, they're rich, so what...
everyone else is buying in now and getting rich too.
Eventually it will all settle out and be just a boring stable currency at market value, no big deal.
Of course not having a printing press will prevent arbitrary inflation and raise value, that's the point.
Zcash / Zclassic is what you want for privacy.
And Bitcoin over tor will do if needed and done right.
People are fucking stupid.
If you treat Bitcoins as currency, you spend them. Thus, you're not holding on to them long enough for them to accrue value. If you treat them as an investment, you're not spending them, and there's no Bitcoin economy to make them worth anything.
That's why Bitcoin trading is pure speculation.
There are two good reasons to "invest" in a currency:
1) Utility: It's a "safe, convenient, and easy to use" currency. For most people in countries with relatively stable currencies, their country's fiat currency fits this bill. I for one keep at least a month's worth of expenses "in cash" in a bank account, knowing I will lose very little to inflation, that I have a very low risk of the money suddenly becoming temporarily inaccessible, and knowing that I can pay any domestic debt with it without having to pay a middleman to convert it.
2) Hedge: If I know I'm going to need a certain amount of Euros, Yen, or BTC six months from now but I'm not willing to accept the risk of currency flucutations, I can "lock in" the price now, either by buying a futures contract or by buying the actual Euros, Yen, or BTC.
But I agree with you, buying BCT, or for that matter, any currency that isn't known to be very stable (low inflation now and for the forseeable future) as an "investment" is pretty speculative.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Bitcoin is fundamentally impractical. It limps along ...
and it occasionally makes dazzling leaps into the air and then trips over itself, falls down and just lies there.
Concur.
Bitcoin as a financial system is made impractical in the long term by the fact that it is limited in the total number that can be issued. After the last one is issued, the intent is for the value of them to simply go up.
A Bitcoin is the solution to a hashing problem for which the ease in calculating a solution goes up with the size of the search space. In a very large search space it's easy to generate a solution, but as the search space becomes smaller you have to spend more time hunting around for a correct solution.
As more solutions are found, the people behind bitcoin validate that 'coin and then shorten the length in bits needed for a valid solution. They have a fixed number in mind that they want to base the currency on, and as the number of solutions found approach that number, they have been shortening the length so that they will eventually have exactly the number they want, and finding new solutions will take an astronomically long time.
There's nothing preventing them from increasing the valid length of solutions and letting people find more. They have explained countless times that this is how they can have actual inflation in their currency.
Countless times of explaining this to the public, and yet people continue to repeat bullshit they've heard "somewhere on the internet" that matches their woldview.
It's no wonder they're having trouble - they're concentrating on their project, but losing the war against propaganda.
Here are two great charities that accept BTC payments, and I'm sure they're not the only ones: https://supporters.eff.org/don... https://www.heifer.org/gift-ca...
Do you really need reason for beer? Wingman Brewers
You don't need to pay taxes, this taxdoctrination has gotten completely out of hand. Again: you don't have to pay any taxes to anybody. The sooner the vast majority of people understands that they do not actually have to pay taxes, the better.
Also: why should anybody want to pay taxes in BTC? If BTC allows to get around taxes then all the better.
You can't handle the truth.
The Fed is NOT part of the USG. It's just a cartel of European banks. They don't answer to US taxpayers and they don't answer to congress. They are beholden only to themselves and they care only to continue their monopoly on banking where every USD automatically comes with a 6% debt that is paid back to the FED. Woodrow Wilson signed them into power, at night, in secret, on an island and then immediately and publicly regretted it and said he'd made the worst mistake that could have been made against US. Now we have our own mint and can make our own money but, every dollar we print ourselves for ourselves
nah, just buy iphones. trade that shit for health insurance, or anything else you want. iphone the new stone of jordan.
Dealing in a substantial $$$ amount in gift cards would be a way to get on FinCEN's watchlist
Also, I believe no Amazon doesn't directly. At a time at least Overstock did. I believe you will be required to identify yourself to the retailer to conduct these kinds of transactions BTC is not for anonymity, at least not when dealing with reputable ecommerce companies.
Try these options: https://exchangewar.info/coinp... but if you care for your privacy, maybe it's better to use Localbitcoins (although you'll pay a bit more for it).
The US Federal Reserve is a privately owned institution.
The non-profit Fed is "owned" by nobody. The leaders of the Fed are confirmed appointees of the US Federal Government. It is a "government institution" by all measures.
Learn to love Alaska
It's a deflationary system. People will lose wallets (die without clear instructions and such for others to use them, and the like).
And it's hijackable by a single person. When a single person has control of the blockchain long enough, which happens as people drop out of the mining business, a single entity could transfer all coins to themselves, then process the transactions, until they "own" them all. It will happen, and when it does, people will lose faith in all block chain systems, even those without the same limitations.
Learn to love Alaska
The reason governments are attempting to ban cash worldwide is exactly because it's so hard to do exactly what you're describing.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
It's a deflationary system. People will lose wallets (die without clear instructions and such for others to use them, and the like).
And it's hijackable by a single person. When a single person has control of the blockchain long enough, which happens as people drop out of the mining business, a single entity could transfer all coins to themselves, then process the transactions, until they "own" them all. It will happen, and when it does, people will lose faith in all block chain systems, even those without the same limitations.
It's useless at that point anyway,. as if everyone drops out of the network there is no more network to process transactions and the value drops to zero.
I do not read or respond to AC's. If you want a discussion, log in. Otherwise, don't waste your time.
In what twisted universe are tactical nukes not nuclear weapons?
Bitcoin is backed by mathematics. Cannot be counterfeit, cannot be inflated, less vulnerable to corruption. The issue of theft is nothing new, just easier to execute, but ethereum may solve that issue comprehensively (e.g. long store wallets with rules that prevent instant draining of accounts, something akin to clearing a cheque).
oh but he is asking how to turn it into cash without paying taxes or having a record he has the cash.
he probably totally ignores the fact that once he pays the tax on the investment he is free to do whatever he wants with the money without any of the agencies caring anything - UNLIKE if he just got magically a million dollars of cash and went buying expensive things which would put him on the hitlist of dea etc.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
I hadn't thought of it that way. Heaven is a communist dictatorship. And presumably you can't get pregnant in Heaven (since you have to die to get in), so if there is sex then it would be purely for pleasure and not procreation.
It looks like there might be a lot of fundamentalists who are in for a bit of a shock when they die. That is, unless they find that there is no afterlife and so they would be in for no shock at all.
You can easily freely use bitcoins in t he land of the free. It's the dollar you apparently cannot use so freely. Just don't use it. Problem solved. You're welcome.
0x or or snor perron?!
The document from the South African treasury about virtual currencies you linked to states:
"Due to their unregulated status, virtual currencies cannot be classified as legal tender as any merchant may refuse them as a payment instrument without being in breach of the law. In addition, virtual currencies cannot be regarded as a means of payment as they are not issued on receipt of funds. The use of virtual currencies therefore depends on the other participantâ(TM)s willingness to accept them."
So, I don't think that qualifies as being "money".
Yes, about two online shops in South Africa accept payment in Bitcoin, but I don't know how they comply with FICA regulations in this case ...
Bitcoin is backed by mathematics.
So is Euler's equation, but it's not particularly useful to anyone to put food on the table.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Most likely, the poster's real motivation is avoiding taxes on his BTC profits. The anarchist in me understands this: taxes are the government taking your property by force. On the other hand, few people would voluntarily pay the amount that governments consume, and we don't seem to be willing to dismantle our governments, so...there we are, taxes.
If it's not about taxes, then cash out. If you register with a BTC exchange and cash in your BTC then, yes, the IRS will know who you are. So what? Just pay your taxes. It's not really about privacy, because you can then turn your US$ into cash, and spend that cash as anonymously as you like.
Incidentally, parallel currencies are nothing new. As an example, there has been a parallel currency in Switzerland (WIR) since 1934. It limps along for all of the same reasons that BTC limps along: it's an additional hassle for your average business, it complicates accounting and taxes, and it is an additional (exchange-rate) risk that most businesses don't want to deal with.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
Sadly this is mostly true (but not entirely).
A key part of an economy is the ability to purchase something and have a clear path of recourse if you don't get what you pay for. While bitcoins themselves don't cause this problem it is the anonymous transactions that do. It put the buyer in greater risk because the seller has all the advantages. If I buy x in bit coins the seller will know who I am to deliver the goods however if if I don't know who the seller is then if what I get isn't what I purchase, I have less ability to fight this. Because I will not have a person to bring to judge. However being the seller will have the info to deliver product to me. He could use that data against me if it was to his self interest.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Are you high? The Federal Reserve is NOT NOT NOT a part of the US Government. It is a corporation owned by member banks. IT IS NOT FEDERAL.
Not only that, all profits go directly to the US Treasury.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The only reason e-gold crashed and burned was because the feds charged the operators with money laundering and with violating some regulations about money transfer passed as part of the Patriot Act.
It won't be that easy with bitcoin because of the decentralized aspect of it. If there was a "Bitcoin Inc." with a corporate HQ, the feds would have shut it down a long, long time ago. When they really want to crack down on bitcoin, they might just make it a crime to use it for any transaction.
And for the last time,
bitcoin IS NOT DESIGNED with anonymity in mind.
It is designed for being a distributed system with no central authority (in theory at least).
And this system works by replacing any central authority with a consensus among all the nodes of the network.
Which is achieved by all (full) nodes of the network having, by design, a local copy of the whole ledger (= the blockchain).
That mean each of them can see any single transaction you did at any point of time.
(Again, by design. That's how the bitcoin protocol can reach consensus and trust without needing any central authority to act as a reference).
That means that no, you're not anonymous, I can see all the transaction you ever did inside the blockchain on my own locally run node.
At best, bitcoin protocol provides pseudonymity.
It's not Facebook require real names.
Transaction aren't officially done in the name of your real identity, they are done in the name of some base64 encoded public key.
And normal client are constantly shuffling sums around so there might be hundred of transaction between the time you received some amount of BTC and the time you spent them at an online shop where you order something to be mailed to you (and thus where some phyical world coordinates can be linked to your bitcoin identity).
That mostly prevent casual/accidental snooping.
But that's not beyond the capability of data-mining any government-level agent.
If your neighbour want to spy on you, he can't do it easily.
If any three-letter agency wants to track you, they just need to spend some of their tremendous computational power.
Your are not anonymous on the bitcoin network (at least to to governments).
And that's part of the design (it also help you trust the network without needing there to be a "Bitcoin Global Inc." to be held accountable).
Also, because the lack of central authority, nobody can prevent you to spend or receive any BTC money.
Government can see you and track you in the global ledger, but they can't prevent you.
There's no PayPal, Visa, or any other company that can block transactions.
Transaction can happen between any end-points as long as they conform to the bitcoin protocol.
(And that is one of the big motivations behind the rise of bitcoin protocol : people getting fed up of their account getting frozen for any random reason.
e.g.: see donations to WikiLeaks)
If you want (Relative) lack of control AND total anonymity, as suggest above : USE CASH.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Cash is currently an option. It won't be forever. There are significant strides in Europe and India right now toward 'cashless' economies, because the government thinks it never misses out on taxes and the underground economy is supposedly all brought into the daylight -- but that just drives people into trading other things on the black market. It'll get worse over time and happen here too eventually. So you can either spend your TIME worrying about that, or you can just spend your MONEY, pay taxes, and grumble about the government. Unless you plan to overthrow a government or become a criminal, this is the wonderful future -- and it's YOUR wonderful, non-anonymous future. I don't like it either, but what can I do? Probably something illegal, but I'd rather just not bother.
Speak for yourself.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I recommend coinbase. It's a US company, they have their licenses in NY, etc.
Forgot to add, you can also find Bitcoin ATM's all around the US where you can use cash to buy bitcoins.
Technically unless it's gold or silver coin, it's all made up bullshit; money is only valuable because you can convert it to a desired goods or service at a future date. Even gold or silver coin's value is more dependant on conversion to a desired goods or service at a future date than it's innate value.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Seems like we are on a path toward no anonymity financial transactions. Cash is slowly being squeezed with some of the 1% of the 1% talking of phasing it out. Lots of talk of getting rid of big bills because of the possibility of negative interest rates, crime (which is real, the world money supply of $100 bills has gone up massively over the last 20 years and its nearly all off-shore and is sourced through banks along the internal edges of the U.S. border). I would argue keeping our ability to have private transaction - however the world seems racing towards a place where anonymity is exterminated. Nice article regarding the trouble you can get into when withdrawing large amounts of cash in the U.S.:
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/05/29...
Busted
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
The legal tender law means that people in the country are FORCED and OBLIGED to accept it as a means of payment or contract value. There is no chance Bitcoin get there. We surely don't wanna people getting forced to accept Bitcoin payment. But still having it classify as a currency means you don't pay taxes when buy or sell it and can be used in a contract.
no it is not
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
The FED doesn't put dinner on the table (for you) either, don't see how that's relevant.
Ask the people of Zimbabwe or Venezuala how robust a currency backed by the concept of 'trust me' is. The worst case outcome for cryptocurrencies is not nearly so bleak.
Brilliant post. Agreed. However, I still think Bitcoin is a good thing, because it opens the door for future options. Ethereum and MaidSafe are trying to build distributed, decentralized computing networks on a crypto-currency backbone. Storj.io is trying to build a distributed decentralized storage service on a crypto-currency backbone. Zcash and Zerocoin are attempting to offer features like Bitcoin but with true anonymity. Dogecoin is mostly a joke, but it tries to solve the inherent deflationary properties of Bitcoin.
Am I investing in any of these crypto-currencies at this time? Hell no. But I suspect something useful genuinely will come out of the field within my lifetime.
The intrinsically worthless currency drives the world economy. Bitcoin is driving up the net wealth of the early adopters and ripping off the latecomers, because it's incredibly deflationary. It also can't scale in the number of transactions per second high enough to meet a significant portion of the world's financial needs: Bitcoin protocol is capped at 10 per second, banks handle thousands per second. While the concept is novel, in practice it's just a new variation of pyramid scheme. The founder may not even have intended for that to be the result, but that's what happened. The people who bought or mined when it was $3 per BTC are millionaires preying on the late investors.
Now if someone invents a crypto-currency that's anonymous, scales to an unlimited number of concurrent transactions, and manages to neither be deflationary (which screws late adopters) or inflationary (which screws early adopters), the world will start paying attention. But for now, the only way to stabilize a currency so it neither inflates nor deflates too rapidly is having it backed by a government that can adjust the supply.
It's as federal as federal express ðY
If I put $100 on 28 on roulette wheel and the ball happened to land on 28, what did I lose? It just so happened that this particular gamble worked out this time. If you bought when it was $1300 (or bet on 23) you lost money. Some people won the gamble. It's still gambling, not investment.
> Newegg accepts bitcoin so I buy random items and resell them on eBay. So yeah I take a slight loss there along with fees but come on how is that not a sound plan?
When I do work, I like to make money, not lose money. If you're going to do the work resell things on eBay, a sound plan is to buy a box of 200 widgets for $200, then sell the widgets for $2.50 each. You more than double your money as you work, rather than losing money.
The Fed is a hybrid system, both public and private.
The Fed is owned by its member banks. They get to elect board members to the regional boards. Profits accrue the banks, kind of. The Fed doesn't pay a dividend so those profits never get monetized. So de facto profits go the Treasury.
However the Board of Governors is appointed by the president. This limits the amount of control the banks have over the institution. So what is ownership without access to profits or control?
A analogy would be the local co-op grocery store. The more you buy the more of the store you own. However this comes back as store rebates and the insiders still have control.
When a single person has control of the blockchain long enough ... a single entity could transfer all coins to themselves
How would they do that without the private keys?
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
No. Bitcoin is designed around decentralization, not anonymity. Every transaction is logged forever; for anonymity, that's a nightmare. This misconception is widespread. Bitcoin is not anonymous; if privacy is important to you, you should not be using it.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
We set up institutions up like this all the time when the goal is a level of detachment from popular politics or cooperation across jurisdictions. In local government, they are usually set up as "authorities", such as the entities which administer the bridges between states (e.g. Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, Delaware River Port Authority, etc.).
More broadly, every single corporation in the US gets its charter from a government. What we think of as "private" are actually entities that exist only at the whim of government.
At the end of the day, congress could dissolve the Fed with a single law, and that's what is important.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Go understand bitcoin, then re-ask the question. If you knew the basics, understanding the attack would be trivial. That you have to ask indicates you wouldn't understand the answer.
Learn to love Alaska
I thought that the US dollar was still backed by the Federal Reserve, a foreign bank. I think I trust bitcoin more.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
the amount of mental gymnastics needed to maintain rules like that in light of a presumption of innocence is just staggering
"Sure YOU'RE innocent. That's why we're putting your assets on trial, see? Oh, and you have no standing in this case. APC's aren't cheap, and it's not like the SWAT team can just hold a bake sale don't-cha-know?"
I do understand Bitcoin, and what you are describing is impossible. Bitcoins cannot be transferred from one account to another unless you have the private keys to the account that currently holds them. It's like a signed check - it can't be transferred to another account without a valid signature.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
OK. So you won't bitch when it is worth something. Right?
You'll quietly say that you were wrong and wish those who invested in BTC well.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
There are many cryptocurrencies out there trying to deal with these scenarios. There are some that exist primarily for lightning quick transactions and others for more perfect anonymity. There is room for more than one cryptocurrency and BTC may not be the winner.
It has, though, proved the value of the blockchain and proved that it's cryptographically secure. (Quantum computing may change the equation.)
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
A bitcoin can be divided into 100 million satoshis.
If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
To devrtm, in the rather unlikely event that you get past all chaff comments, is localbitcoins.com something that could help you get some cash for some of your bitcoin while you research and figure out your other options? Other options, of which there many. ;) btw I'm also bozoforpresident on reddit which might be easier for messaging than /. Final thought - to all the mooing tax cattle, off to the slaughterhouse you go...
Agreed. But the way the AC wrote, I think he or she has put their faith and support in Bitcoin.
If every bank involved agrees the invalid signature is valid, what happens to the money? Now apply that to bitcoin.
You bought into the lie that it's "secure" so completely, that you can't conceive of a situation when it's not. There are plenty, some are obvious, others, less so.
The situation I describe is almost exactly what you described. The swarm is supposed to have some people processing transactions. They confirm the keys. If enough people confirm the fraudulent signature as valid, the transaction takes place, both in bitcoin, and at your bank. You seem to understand the attack 100% and refuse to accept it's possible. It's been proven possible, and is at the point now where it's quite practical. The "fault" is that if someone were to steal 100% of all bitcoins, nobody would ever use another bitcoin. So you'd just destroy bitcoin, not gain anything. Stealing a coin here or there from a wallet that hasn't been touched in a while would be more "practical", and for all we know, is being done now. Bitcoins are finite and identifiable. It'd be possible to find every bitcoin not traded in the past 3 years, assert it "lost" then the attacker fraudulently claim them with the attack given, and it's possible he could liquidate after the theft without anyone noticing until he's cashed out.
Learn to love Alaska
If every bank involved agrees the invalid signature is valid, what happens to the money?
Stealing a coin here or there from a wallet that hasn't been touched in a while would be more "practical", and for all we know, is being done now.
Anyone can audit the blockchain, not just miners.
It'd be possible to find every bitcoin not traded in the past 3 years, assert it "lost" then the attacker fraudulently claim them with the attack given, and it's possible he could liquidate after the theft without anyone noticing until he's cashed out.
It's not just miners checking the transactions.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
The wikipedia definition of money[1] ("Money is any item or verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a particular country or socio-economic context") is basically identical to the defintion of legal tender[2] ("Legal tender is variously defined in different jurisdictions. Formally, it is anything which when offered in payment extinguishes the debt.").
The guidance document for virtual currencies by the South African treasury only refers to 'virtual currencies', never referring to them as 'money'. Virtual currencies effectively have the same (or less) standing in South Africa as (or than) external currencies (including e.g. the Zimbabwean Dollar).
So, what do bitcoin proponents claiming 'Bitcoin is classify as money' define 'money' as? Obviously something different than the rest of the population.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Anyone can audit the blockchain, not just miners.
When you get back and find your bitcoins stolen, you'll be able to identify the wallet they end up in. Congradulations. But what good does that do when the protocol doesn't allow for a mass audit? Oh yeah, you have no understanding of how this works.
Learn to love Alaska
...but not all flamebait is truth.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.