More Than Ever, Employees Want a Say in How Their Companies Are Run (qz.com)

Two readers share a report: While workers have traditionally looked to unions to address their grievances, a new generation is trusting in the power of petitions to force changes. At the Wall Street Journal, 160 reporters and editors, delivered a letter to their managers protesting the lack of women and minorities running the organization, Business Insider reported yesterday. "Nearly all the people at high levels at the paper deciding what we cover and how are white men," the letter read. IBM employees are circulating an online petition objecting to the tone of CEO Ginni Rometty's letter to US president Donald Trump, and calling on her affirm what they call the company's progressive values. [...] Other employee petitions call for Oracle to oppose US president Donald Trump's second travel ban, and to let men who work at US regional supermarket Publix grow beards. Employee petitions are now so popular there's a website, coworker.org, devoted to hosting them. In some cases, the campaigns work: Starbuck's relaxed its rules about visible tattoos and unnatural hair color for baristas after thousands signed petitions asking for a change. Sometimes, they fail disastrously. Interns at one (unnamed) company described in a blog about being fired en masse after signing a petition asking for a more relaxed dress code.

Comments

Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me translate. A bunch of whining millennial snowflakes want a say in getting out of working hard. They also think they're entitled to power even though they haven't worked hard enough to earn a management position. Millennial snowflakes are crybabies and don't deserve to be promoted.

Re:Translation

[skids]

We need to build a wall and keep all the females out until they can be throughly vetted. Over 50% of the poeple living in this country are female, did you know that? That's MILLIONS. We have to put a stop to this until we cn figre out WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON.

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[fluffernutter]

I'd like to be on the female side of the wall please. You know, so I can help figure out what's going on.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Dress codes (outside of safety) have little to do with working hard and more to do with enforcing unnecessary conformity. As long as your clothing's sanitary and safe for the typical workday environment, I don't see a reason why it can't be worn to work. Employees undistracted by uncomfortable clothing are productive employees. Asking for this should got get one fired as it has nothing to do with workload.

2. In mentioning 'white men' the letter's author exposes a racist viewpoint. Just because someone's white and male does not mean he is responsible for all suffering.

Re:Translation

[DickBreath]

Your otherwise excellent policy proposal fails because it does not describe how to pay for the wall. Here's an idea: make the females pay for the wall. Oh, wait. They might be happy to do that. :-) Walls work two ways.

Re:Translation

[CaptainDork]

We're sorry, but North Carolina will have to see your birth certificate, please.

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[Penguinisto]

Generalization aside, I was actually sort of with you on that until...

They also think they're entitled to power even though they haven't worked hard enough to earn a management position.

That should read "they haven't worked long and/or smart enough to earn a management position."

Entrepreneurs who are successful enough to found their own self-sustaining company are exempt from this, naturally...

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell that to BLM...

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[cayenne8]

1. Dress codes (outside of safety) have little to do with working hard and more to do with enforcing unnecessary conformity.

They also promote the image the company wants to project publicly in many cases.

I hate the dress codes too, but they can be there for a reason.

I was at a place that started out having all men wear ties, women were dresses, or if in pants they had to be pretty formal looking.

After a few years there, they relaxed the dress codes to much more casual when in the work place when not meeting or being seen by customers.

But if we had to meet with customers or they were coming into our building, we had to go back to ties and formal looks those days.

And hell, for the times it is for conformity, I'd think the snowflake generation would be used to wearing the "school uniform"...don't most public and private schools today require uniforms?

Re: Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod up +1

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

They also promote the image the company wants to project publicly in many cases.

I hate the dress codes too, but they can be there for a reason.

I was at a place that started out having all men wear ties, women were dresses, or if in pants they had to be pretty formal looking.

After a few years there, they relaxed the dress codes to much more casual when in the work place when not meeting or being seen by customers.

But if we had to meet with customers or they were coming into our building, we had to go back to ties and formal looks those days.

We can wear jeans to the office and in the field but supposedly we're to put khakis or slacks on if meeting with the client. However that goes pretty much unenforced, probably because these days the clients tend to wear jeans all the time anyway. Only the high executive types bother to wear suits anymore.

And hell, for the times it is for conformity, I'd think the snowflake generation would be used to wearing the "school uniform"...don't most public and private schools today require uniforms?

I've never seen a public school in the USA have a uniform for anything other than sports teams. Hell dress code has only gotten even laxer since I graduated in 2000.

Re:Translation

[jimmifett]

I agree with your second point, but dress code, is important. I work completely differently in shorts and a tee than a button down shirt.

A button down puts me in a completely different mindset and attitude. Having a co-worker in sandals and ripped shorts is distracting. When I go to a client or have a client come to me, I want myself and all my co-workers looking like professional bad-asses at work, not slackers. It's all perception.

Long time ago, someone also told me to dress for the job I want, that's been somewhat successful.

Appropriate clothing for the job being done is important.

Re:Translation

[cayenne8]

I've never seen a public school in the USA have a uniform for anything other than sports teams. Hell dress code has only gotten even laxer since I graduated in 2000.

I don't know where in the US you are located, but where I live, pretty much all the public schools require uniforms, it was put in to keep the poor kids from feeling bad next to the better dressed wealthier kids.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Will you get Mexico to pay for it?

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[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a different AC and I have never even heard of public schools in the USA having uniforms and I've been all over the place. LOL

I'm thinking you're thinking of private schools in the USA. THOSE have uniforms.

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[clonehappy]

So true. In fact, if I were CEO of IBM, I'd make it publicly known that I literally used their petition as toilet paper and tell them to get back to fucking work. If you don't like your job, quit.

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[ITRambo]

You deserve an unlimited number of mod points for this comment.

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[Marxist Hacker 42]

And even the high executives shouldn't. The only thing a man in a suit and tie says to me is "I'm going to overcharge you by the cost of this suit"

Re:Translation

[Marxist Hacker 42]

http://dilbert.com/strip/2017-03-29

You're missing the boat. The lazy slacker is the most efficient employee you can have. He'll find a way to get the job done in a quarter of the time and a tenth of the cost- just so he can goof off the rest of the day.

Re:Translation

[dcw3]

We'll make the women pay for the wall!

Re:Translation

[dcw3]

1. Dress codes (outside of safety) have little to do with working hard and more to do with enforcing unnecessary conformity.

If you're an employee who deals with customers then suck it up. Your employer has every right to demand you dress appropriately, else you could be costing them business. Don't like it?...gtfo. Our office has a business casual dress code...don't come in wearing shorts or flip flops. If you want to be a slob, go somewhere else.

I've also had occasion to ask HR to talk to a female employee about her exposing a bit too much...every day. I'm no Puritan, but sheesh, the office isn't a place to share your cleavage, or wear skirts that expose your panties.

Re:Translation

[LoyalOpposition]

Let me translate. A bunch of whining millennial snowflakes want a say in getting out of working hard. They also think they're entitled to power even though they haven't worked hard enough to earn a management position. Millennial snowflakes are crybabies and don't deserve to be promoted.

Hmmm...could be. On the other hand it occurs to me that people who own stock have a say in running the company. Why is that? I'm certain that they pay more for stock or take less compensation in order to get partial control. Why couldn't people who work for a company want partial control for similar reasons? They think that if they have control then their investments (in time, in "roots", whatever) are better represented. You seem to be saying that the only reason an employee would want control is to work less hard, but I recall the company before last that I worked for. Management decided that instead of being a hardware and software company that they wanted to be a software-only company. I thought that was particularly poorly thought out, but I had no control.

By the way, you might want to get a narrower brush.

~Loyal

Re:Translation

[ShanghaiBill]

In America, about 20% of public schools require uniforms. This is an increase from around 12% in the 1999-2000 school year. Uniforms are more common in low income areas where classroom control and gangs are bigger problems.

Re: Translation

[SCVonSteroids]

As for the uniforms, no, not that I'm aware of. At least not here in New Brunswick.

Dresscodes shouldn't be super anal, but I wholly agree with dressing nicely when dealing with customers. Impressions go a long way, regardless of skill level. Combine both and you are set for life.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad reality doesn't work like those deep and insightful phrases we used to put into our forum signatures as kids, back when we had it all figured out how the world works.

Re:Translation

[ShanghaiBill]

And even the high executives shouldn't.

Neckties constrict blood flow to the brain. Taking an IQ test while wearing a tie lowers your score by an average of 3 points. Neckties make you stupid, at least while you are wearing them.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet another AC here, and apparently you haven't been to enough places. There are a couple public schools around here that have them but this is the first one to come to mind...

http://www.mpsaz.org/lowell/us/sdc/files/1uniform_policy_2016.pdf

You've been all over the place so I'm sure you already know but in regards to the point made by cayenne8 this school happens to be in a low income area.

Re:Translation

[darkain]

As far back as the 90's, uniforms existed in public education. In Washington State, I attended a public school for a year which required them. It was damn entertaining being sent home for wearing bluejeans one day!

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[Anonymous Coward]

There's a big damn difference between "existed" and being a thing in MOST or ALL schools like cayenne8 was saying.

And I'd wager it "existed" well before the 90s.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

And apparently you can't read.

Cayenne8 said basically "all" public schools have this. Cayenne8's point was we should ALL be used to uniforms having been in them when we were in school. And quite frankly, I've never been in a uniform in my whole life. Same with most of my friends and relatives. The only exception being my father who was military. And to be clear... I'm frequently considered a member of the "snowflake generation" as are the bulk of my friends. So... He's talking to us jackass and swung and miss.

Low income or a "couple of places" as you specified is a big difference from ALL or NEARLY ALL or MOST etc... Meaning... Golly gosh cayenne8 didn't get it right.

Considering my father was transferred all over the place, I should have seen it at some point if it was a thing in the USA. Plus I have cousins and nephews and nieces etc... And... Never heard of it as "public" school thing. Private. Yes. Public. No.

Now I'm not saying there aren't some or even a "good number". But it's not as common as cayenne8 is making it sound. (Which he was making it sound like it's practically everywhere)

Now I haven't lived in a low income area so I wouldn't know about those. But take a look at ShanghaiBill's remark, where he actually discusses numbers. Which is no where close to 100% or even most. Supposedly they are more common in low income, which would make sense.

Re:Translation

[epyT-R]

It is a cultural problem. A problem you've illustrated quite well. Why does a tie imply professionalism? Why not focus on how efficient your employees are and the accomplishments of your company instead of associating it with arbitrary fashion? This applies to your customers as well. I realize you're bowing to pragmatic reality, but fashion obsession is anything but professional (unless of course you work in the fashion biz).

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

What a crock of shit! A properly fitted shirt with a properly tied tie is comfortable wear.

A properly fitted shirt is where you can fit your index and middle fingers between the shirt collar and your neck without constricting breathing. With a properly fitted shirt you can't choke yourself when tying your tie unless you over-tighten it and crush the collar.

Re:Translation

[epyT-R]

By all means, if you work better in a shirt and tie, wear them. Someone who works better in shorts and T shirt should be able to wear that if he chooses (again barring safety concerns). You are making the typical mistake of projecting your mental state onto your others. Just because you need to dress the part and play-act it doesn't mean they need it too. Clothing shouldn't define the employee or the job, the skills possessed and the skills required should, respectively.

Beyond specific safety concerns (eg a plastic suit for a clean room, or steel toed boots in a factory), clothing choice is entirely irrelevant and should be left to the employee's level of comfort. The fewer distractions at work the better.

Re:Translation

[Oligonicella]

Agree with your crock of shit statement. I *despise* wearing a tie. However, all that is psychological, not physical.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

" I thought that was particularly poorly thought out, but I had no control"
First off if you are an employee and not in a management leadership position (Pres, VP, CIO,CTO,...) you will not be invited to sit around the boardroom and help run the company. As the number of people of decision group increases the decision making process becomes more chaotic and inefficient. That may be fine for the government but a no one running a company will put up with that kind of nonsense. And there are two things that should never be accepted in a business environment and that is religion and politics. And "progressive values" are neither progressive or valuable in any shape or form. That ideology leads directly towards the nanny state and over the top PC so all the tiny number of whiny big mouths can feel safe.

Re:Translation

[dcw3]

"Why does a tie imply professionalism? Why not focus on how efficient your employees are and the accomplishments of your company instead of associating it with arbitrary fashion? This applies to your customers as well."

The customer is always right. They get to vote with their wallet or feet, and don't have to be professional.

Re:Translation

[guruevi]

Dress codes do indeed have little personal benefit if you're sitting at a desk in an office all day. However it's also been proven that dressing professional makes people act more professional. And often people have to interact with clients, even if you're just sitting at a desk, clients may come in for meetings, they expect a certain decorum.

Re:Translation

[Evtim]

I opened this tread with enthusiasm and what do I see - it's about clothing and white men. Well, I think this is the least of our problems. How about this - my company might be soon a subject of a hostile take over from US corporation. Now, I would very much like if the employees had any say about THAT, you know.....tens of thousands of jobs are at the stake plus enormous losses to the country and society should my company disappear. Not to mention the hit on the environment - the US corp has a dismal record and gives less than shit about it - that is why they have the money, cause we spend extra cash on sustainability..... But it's private business and we are all hostages to the whims and greed of as handful of individuals. Game over, man!

OK, then listen up - I have a fact to tell you about the white men - hopefully it might provoke a bit of that moron thing that we sometimes do - you know it is called thinking [RIP George]. I am studying advanced Dutch ATM and the text book is very recent and modern - talks about all the social issues of the day. Pity I can't post screenshot from the book - statistics from 2014 - percentage of women in high management positions per country. Guess who are the champions [top ten] - the former Soviet countries with Russia NUMBER ONE in the world. China plus Philippines and Indonesia are also in. At the same time US and UK are at the BOTTOM ten on that account with [attention!] the Netherlands being second to last before only Japan.

Now look again and explain to me how those facts fit the narrative of the big bad eastern bear and other fucking communists [China, China, China, China, China]. But are really the former communist state less sexists? You mean the Russians who on other counts [gays] are adamant enemies to the humanistic values - they are less sexists than us - yhea it is true. Reason - communism. One - no strong religion [it's coming back though], two - equality between people also implies equality between genders. My mom did much better career than dad, brought more money home and noone batted an eyelid.

But think again - is the Netherlands a hell hole of sexism? Or Japan for that matter....no they are not [NL certainly isn't]. So perhaps, just perhaps such statistic does not tell the whole story and maybe we should concentrate on things I described in the first paragraph rather than how many white men are at the top.

 

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Psychopath.
You'll be left with the idiots, as the smart ones will leave.

Re:Translation

[Kiuas]

They also promote the image the company wants to project publicly in many cases.

Fun anecdote about this that happened to a friend who's a linux sysadmin at a midsize software house here in Finland. Much like me (and most people I know that don't have to be in regular customer contact). He usually wears hoodies, t-shirts, cargopants. You know, the typical 'casual and comfortable nerdy look" but for said meeting with a larger customer he was prepared to suit up, when his boss actually interrupted him and told him not to do that but wear his regular clothes.

The reason for this is that having your linux guy look slightly nerdish (while still being clean and professional) is something they wanted to do for image reasons.

I've never much like suits partially because being in a wheelchair getting into one takes a fuckton of time and I rather dress comfortably, so unless I'm outright ordered to do so by my superiors I'll wear what I always wear. And just recently I was in a joint meeting with several people, some guys from the army were along. Some people were wearing suits, one was wearing a woolen shirt, the officers were all in uniforms and I was in the corner wearing a Metallica-hoodie. If they did judge me for that they were very good at hiding it, because I sensed no disrespect from anyone, and never have, but I'd like to think that's because I know what I'm talking about and the respect is earned through actions and not based on appearance.

Re:Translation

[serviscope_minor]

Try a cravat instead. Couple of with a monocle. That look never goes pour of style.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't seen that many management people who got there through "working hard". Well, at least not working hard at their job. The best way to get to management is social engineering.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Just because some black mages in the past summoned a bunch of void-sent which began a calamity doesn't mean that today's black mages are vile creatures that should be locked up.

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[Anonymous Coward]

A tie is comfortable, I call bullshit on that.

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[Anonymous Coward]

You are about to get "Morganized". Look corporations only buy companies that they can squeeze profitability out of. You work for an inefficient target, if it weren't an American company it would be a "pick nationality here" company. Then saying that women are running a bunch of companies in the former eastern block, ok, next on the counter to be purchased and squeezed. I own stock and I want returns, not virtue signaling companies. Your choice is Capitalism or go move to Venezuela. Have fun!

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Dress codes, like many things in modern business, are stupid. I never see customers, or vendors for that matter, or pretty much anyone outside of my team/department unless something has gone very, very wrong. There is absolutely zero justification for me to even be *AT* the office 95% of the time. Yet for some reason I have to blow unnecessary money on uncomfortable dress shoes and pants that are a complete waste. Just let me wear jeans and sneakers for god's sake, I'm better at my job when I'm comfortable. You'd think they'd notice considering how much more gets done on work-at-home days then when we have to shlep into this stupid cube farm.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

There are several reasons for dress codes:

1.) Promoting a non-hostile workplace. The buttercup generation can't handle someone wearing a hat or t-shirt that supports someone they despise. Wearing such an article of clothing has resulted, quite publicly, in fights. In addition, some people are offend by clothing such as short skirts, tight-clothing, translucent cloth, etc... Sex addiction is a serious medical issue.

2.) Promoting the company's products and services as "high-value" or worth the price the company charges. I have worked at a company where potential clients were brought on tours through the IT department, accounting, call centers, etc... We were given as little as 24 hours notice in some case to inform us that we needed to wear formal business attire the next day (ties, long skirts or pants, clean-shaven, etc...)

3.) Employee safety. This is less of an issue, but in the event of an emergency a company wouldn't want people trying to navigate an evacuation while wearing sandals and a toga. I have also worked in environments with chemicals that will kill you in less than 2 minutes if exposed to them, and around active welding environments (steel company making large Caterpillar dozer parts, buckets and such.) Long sleeves, pants, steel-toe boots with cover guards, eye protection, etc.., all of them mandatory.

Re: Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir can go fuck yourself

Re: Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit from an isiot

Re:Translation

[Areyoukiddingme]

Long time ago, someone also told me to dress for the job I want, that's been somewhat successful.

I tried that, but they told me the cape and cowl were not appropriate.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

When I wear a suit or tie to work, I'm distracted by worrying about my appearance. I can work more professionally in jeans and flannel/Hawaiian shirts, depending on season, in the sense that I focus on getting the damn work done.

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

>unnecessary conformity
and
>It is a cultural problem.

Hardly a problem, it is s a team. And really good teams can be more prosperous than jobby-jobs. part of the 'match-up' is dressing per the profession's culture not your personal one. So there's your line in the sand: Want to announce how unique & non-conforming you are, and how brainwashed the uncreative staffers are while wasting their lives away? Then don't apply to prosperous teams.

Or get in, loose the jeans for a few hours a day & wear those khakis (or whatever), and be so amazing that you bring some sunlight into these so-called boring offices. Illuminate the place from inside out. You'll discover they are plenty creative & hardly brainwashed. Nobody will hear you if you scold them from the outside as being sheeple or whatever. Join up & be an inspiration once in there. I did and it works wonders :D

You'll see as you are appreciated, and in turn appreciate others, gain some more prosperity, grow & become more involved, and other things that take time etc. well that 'damnable dress-code' of not wearing jeans to work is hardly anything to affect your life at all. At all.

>I realize you're bowing to pragmatic reality...
Only the weak announce their feistiness, in an attempt to avoid being captured or controlled. When in reality it's the other way around- get in there and you'll find that 'going with the grain' is hardly captured at all and in fact a new tool for you unorthodox ideas. You can literally succeed more that way! There's an old saying: "You need to know the rules in order to break them". So go try it out young'n... and change things from the inside out. We need you ;)

Re:Translation

[Anonymous Cow Ward]

For someone accusing someone else of not being able to read, you're pretty bad at it too. The comment in question says

but where I live, pretty much all the public schools require uniforms

Note the "where I live" qualifier there.

this is really getting tiring

[ganjadude]

there are zero barriers for entry in the workforce today. this push for diversity for nothing other than the sake of diversity is pointless.

the best person for the job regardless of race or gender is how it should be, nothing else.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[silas_moeckel]

But making false numbers games are how SJW's survive.

As a business owner I would have a huge pushback on the force change bit if stuff this simple requires a petition your management is probably already dysfunctional.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me take a wild stab here. You are a straight white male, right?

Re:this is really getting tiring

[DogDude]

the best person for the job regardless of race or gender is how it should be, nothing else.

That's short sighted.

- We have historical (and current) discrimination to overcome.
- Different people from different viewpoints are almost invariably GOOD for an organization. Those that don't have diversity tend to wither and die due to stagnation.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me take a wild stab here. You are an SJW, right? You're certainly racist and sexist enough.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

- Different people from different viewpoints are almost invariably GOOD for an organization. Those that don't have diversity tend to wither and die due to stagnation.

Proof?

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Austerity Empowers]

there are zero barriers for entry in the workforce today

Just try to apply to my job without a masters or PhD in a relevant field. At best you will never hear from anyone again. At worst they'll bring you in for sport, and some of these people are just enough assholes to do it, if HR didn't get in the way.

There are lots of barriers. The mistake is thinking management cares about what people think. Instead they should buy a share, group up, then start forcing votes at the shareholder level.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[fluffernutter]

Having a company hire someone solely based on race is a terrible way to fight discrimination, in fact it is counterproductive because not you have many workers with resentment towards people who have been perceived to receive a 'free ride'. The only way to really tackle it is to look at the societal forces that prevent a person from being as tell trained or applicable for a job due to their background. I have no doubt that some companies turn away people based on race and this should be stopped. But if a company only has 1% of minority applications they shouldn't be expected to tip the scales. Once that happens it is too late. Sadly, I fear things are going the other way. Decent job opportunities seem to be fewer and far between for everyone, and this will only exacerbate the situation.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

- No we don't. History is history. It's dead. We abolished slavery 200 years ago. Quit blaming people alive today for what happened back then. They're not to blame. As far as today goes, sure, we have instances of discrimination, but they should be dealt with per-issue and not with some blanket institutional bigotry that actually imposes more discrimination than it fights. The very one sidedness of existing legislation is probably the best example of institutional bigotry in force today.

- In that case there's no reason to argue for racial and sexual diversity since they have no basis on intellectual diversity.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[ganjadude]

did you just assume my gender????

Re: this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not rightist and centrists who keep bringing traits like race, gender, sexual preference, and so on into every situation and discussion. They aren't constantly pushing identity politics. It's the leftists who are doing that.

Everybody but the leftists have moved on. The leftists draw their power from exploiting the differences between groups of people, however. So they need to continually foster disagreement and disruption. Leftists need this disunity in order for their failed belief systems to survive. They need to constantly create new 'victims' in order to exploit society.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[grasshoppa]

The problem is folks get outcomes confused with opportunity. Just because a certain gender or color isn't present in representative numbers in upper management and certain jobs doesn't mean they didn't have the opportunity to pursue that job. Equal Opportunity does not equate to Equal Outcomes, essentially.

Amusingly, what these folks are advocating for is a lowering of the bar which only applies to certain genders or skin colors...which makes them, you guessed it, bigots.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[CaptainDork]

I was a suit at Mobil Oil during its Dilbert years, and it was called, "empowerment."

It died along with "Quality, Vision and Mission" statements.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that is just plain mean-spirited. Are you new?

Re:this is really getting tiring

[CaptainDork]

Not so much this.

I remember Texaco refinery hiring black women (a definite "twofer") back in 1975 and giving them fast-track promotions to supervisors.

Texaco did this because federal contracts required it.

It did serve a purpose, though.

At first, white men were totally disgusted.

Then, the white men found something else to be totally disgusted about.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Penguinisto]

- We have historical (and current) discrimination to overcome.

"historical" means approximately bupkis - no sane human is in the business of reparations, or of acting on induced guilt for things that they themselves have not done.

"(and current)"? Must not be all that prevalent if it's in parentheses, now is it?

- Different people from different viewpoints are almost invariably GOOD for an organization.

Almost, but...

• doing so doesn't require "diversity" as the SJW crowd defines it
• having differing viewpoints just for the sake of having them can be just as detrimental as having a monoculture/bubble/echo-chamber
• there is a huge difference between having different viewpoints to consider from, and giving all of those differing viewpoints equal influence and/or power in an organization (else you have 'paralysis by analysis')

Re:this is really getting tiring

[epyT-R]

I'm sure if we gave non whites enough other distractions "to be totally disgusted about", we could avoid having to respect their rights too. Doesn't make it right, however.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[cayenne8]

Those that don't have diversity tend to wither and die due to stagnation.

I"ve yet to see that ever.

I suppose if the business is catering to a specific market where no one is a part of or knows that market it could be detrimental (all white guys trying to see black women gerry curl, or whatever it is called).

On the other hand...throwing out or not hiring people due to their race and ONLY being interested in meeting quotas for diversity sake, I have seen tank a company's abilities.

I have no problem with hiring whomever is the best for the job.

Hell, why is it no one complains there aren't enough white jewish men playing in the NBA? I mean, you look at those teams....no diversity there, just a bunch of tall black guys, with the occasional token tall white boy in there.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Tablizer]

the best person for the job regardless of race or gender is how it should be, nothing else.

I've been in the workforce long enough, including in interview panels, to know that raw merit is only half the game. Hiring and promotion decisions are largely social, especially when multiple candidates have similar merit credentials. Humans are social animals, and thus naturally biased.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[ganjadude]

no its really not short sighted. If we ever want to move forward, or progress if you will, we cannot keep hanging on to the historical discrimination as an excuse.

I dont disagree that different people with different viewpoints are good, but the point remains that if they DONT have good points of view but are hired specifically to fill a quota, that is almost invariably BAD for the same company

Re:this is really getting tiring

[ganjadude]

ok...so get a masters or PHD? that isnt a barrier in the sense i was speaking here. that actually goes along with my "best person for the job" point

Re:this is really getting tiring

[cayenne8]

Just try to apply to my job without a masters or PhD in a relevant field.

Err....being qualified for a job is not considered part of overcoming a barrier to a job. Being qualified for a job is a GIVEN to even be considered for a job, geez.....please have some common sense.

Barriers as discussed above are artificial things keeping folks out that are all qualified for the same job or activity.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course I did, since I've never heard anyone except straight white males make the claim that there's zero entry to the workforce. That is simply an incredibly ignorant statement.

PS. For the record I am straight, white, male, and not a millennial

Re:this is really getting tiring

[quantaman]

- Different people from different viewpoints are almost invariably GOOD for an organization. Those that don't have diversity tend to wither and die due to stagnation.

Proof?

How about I just give you a solid argument because you surely realize that the statement "Different people from different viewpoints are almost invariably GOOD for an organization" is fundamentally hard to test.

A predominately male workplace will tend to breed a culture with misogynistic behaviours, Uber is a great example of this.

An organization where certain groups are under-represented will tend to do things that offend or otherwise harm those groups because there's no one internally to advocate for those groups.

An non-diverse organization will create a culture where people aren't aware they are offensive, where they get in a habit of making offensive jokes because there's no representatives of that group around to be offended. This is really bad when your organization has to deal with another organization and all your people come off looking like assholes.

People with diverse life-experience tend to have diverse skill-sets, the more diverse your organization the more likely you are to have people qualified to deal with unusual situations you experience. People working with different prior experience means you're also more likely to get a bigger set of potential solutions when trying to solve problems.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a minority with immigrant parents. Hiring someone unqualified but fills in a racist quota bothers me greatly. If you want to say "tie goes to the runner", it leaves the door open to abuse. This is especially common with "SJW acceptable" racism, such as a vietnamese manager not hiring chinese employees; or an indian manager not hiring pakistanis.

As far as historical discrimination, we can avoid racist quotas by using family income for things like college admissions.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[clonehappy]

If a group of people has been told by leftists their entire life that they can't get a job because of their skin color (or sexual preference/orientation, religion, whatever), they then develop a chip on their shoulder about their skin color, and are then unable to obtain a job because of their skin color.

If those same groups of people would just stop listening to leftists, they could break the feedback loop and find success.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Austerity Empowers]

Barriers to entry are almost always used in the same breath as "requires high investment factor". Masters and PhD (or even B.S.) degrees all require a very significant investment. These degrees represent dubious qualifications. They are academic certifications, which may or may not have applicability in the corporate world. I'm not sure how many of my professors could hack it outside of academia, but not so many.

And I disagree, very often those things are requirements that are not actual qualifications, just ways of shrinking the candidate pool. I interview people with those degrees who don't know what they're doing, and I know people without them I'd hire in a heartbeat (but cannot interview or hire because HR). The two best software people I've worked with had GEDs and learned their job in the Army of all places, but I can't hire them. Whatever dicking around they did as teenagers is well behind them, but they're barred.

Diversity for the sake of diversity is just about as arbitrary of a barrier as academic degrees. While white people can't acquire black to get a job, in theory someone of another race can acquire a degree. However often people of other races have a hard time acquiring the money to make it over the barrier, it is as impossible for them as for me to become a black lesbian woman. If this were not true why are we acquiring so many people from India and China, when there are plenty of Americans who do not have jobs. Those countries do a much better job at providing the degrees needed to overcome these barriers.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

That IS simply an incredibly ignorant statement.

If you step outside of the progressive bubble you will find many people of all types who say the same thing. There ARE zero barriers for anyone who has a shred of competence, self-confidence and determination.

And last I checked, those three attributes, are not individually nor collectively a gender or a race.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[spire3661]

"- We have historical (and current) discrimination to overcome."

I absolutely refuse to pay for the sins of our fathers. This will only perpetuate an eternal victimhood. If you see wrong, fix it, but 'diversity' for its own sake is just racism.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[RightwingNutjob]

Yeah. Sure. We do engineering work. We hired a guy to head our HR's diversity department because regulations. What's he do? Nothing harmful at first, but then he gets it into his head that ethnic clubs at work are a good idea.

Diversity with a big 'd' is an employment plan for idiots who can't find real work and have to make their living as parasites and rabble rousers. Believing it is anything other than that is foolish. No one needs ethnic clubs at their workplace.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Oligonicella]

That's a prerequisite not a barrier. You're conflating the meaning in use.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Oligonicella]

However often people of other races have a hard time acquiring the money to make it over the barrier, it is as impossible for them as for me to become a black lesbian woman.

Bullshit. You can just declare yourself as identifying as a black lesbian. In truth, minorities have an easier time acquiring funding than white candidates do.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

In STEM, degrees are a basic requirement. It's not new. It shows that you have shows a basic level of competence in a given field. Do you really want to be operated on by a neurosurgeon with no degree? Do you really want a skyscraper built down the street from you designed by a guy who's never finished college?

Re:this is really getting tiring

[fluffernutter]

If I wasn't so discriminated against by lack of mod points I would mod you up. The world isn't fair.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said anything about barriers to entry? We aren't talking about positive affirmation here. We are talking about recognising when a non-diverse workforce is a competitive liability. Take the WSJ example from the summary. The complaint isn't about bullshit gender quotas, the complaint is that that the only people assigning stories are old white men. That's a real and serious liability, assuming if you want anybody other than old white men to buy your newspaper.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[phantomfive]

"Different people from different viewpoints are almost invariably GOOD for an organization" is fundamentally hard to test.

It shouldn't be too hard, right? Especially now that companies are releasing diversity numbers. Get some diversity numbers for companies, figure out a way to measure their success, and slice the data different ways to see if you can find any correlation. Control for confounding factors. There are certainly difficulties, but this is basic data-science stuff, it's not fundamentally hard.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

That "diversity" is difference in thought and opinion. Has nothing to do with race, sex, religion, etc. Note that diverse thinking also means people of different political persuasion, so purging all conservatives as the Progressives want to do, actually creates less diversity and creates stagnation.

Lack of "diversity" of the type that Progressives keep ranting about is not some conspiracy. It's a product of education and drive more than anything. Also self imposed by the Progressives creating a victim culture and people in the minority groups not having the confidence they can succeed and it becoming self fulfilling. We need to be lifting people up, not telling them they are victims all the time. Unless, of course, having victims to fight for is what makes elite white Progressives feel good about themselves, so it becomes a necessity to never actually help people, but just rant about it all the time.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

The socialist philosophy is nothing more then a reincarnation of the old Catholic church, but without a God. The original sin is present in every discussion (discrimination, slavery, colonization, ...). The evangelizing the message of Christ is also omnipresent in the form of spreading progressive ideologies. The want to live like the early Christians is a goal and can be found in the green idea's (which are often unrealistic). The return of Christ is present in the form of the ultimate 'Communist' or 'zero polluting society'. The idea's are also dogmatic truths: Diversity is good, multiculturalism must be achieved, borders are evil, criminality is caused by victims of discrimination, ... And of course all other religion/ideologies are evil/diabolic is with socialist ideology far right/nazi/fascist/...
 
It is not surprise that every single Communist experiment ended in a cult of personality, because dogmatic believe without a god doesn't work for the vast majority of people.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Goragoth]

Because who gets promoted to management is entirely based on merit, right? If you actually believe that then your naivete is staggering.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of "best" is inherently working with the team and trust. That's not a quality of race, gender or religion. Now, if you're a minority, and refuse to integrate with the majority, you might find yourself losing opportunities. Hispanics refusing to learn English when they immigrate here are hurting themselves. The whole "Uncle Tom" thing in the black community is hurting the advancement of blacks. As an American, try moving to a different country and not make an effort to blend in and meld in to the predominant culture. You'll find similar barriers.

Yes, social interaction plays a role in advancement. It's not a barrier unless candidates refuse to assimilate.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

it is as impossible for them as for me to become a black lesbian woman.

Ah...the rare HR Trifecta

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

It's okay, white Jewish men are the OWNERS of the teams. ;)

Re:this is really getting tiring

[grasshoppa]

Because who gets promoted to management is entirely based on merit, right?

Sadly no. In my experience, who gets promoted to management has more to do with who you're friends with than actual ability.

Please note that gender and race were not mentioned *once* in the above.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

I ran into this working at Ford Motor. I find a listing for a Chess Club. I visit a session and it's a room full of Asians and they all looked at me as if I was Satan when I walked in. Turns out it was an *Asian* Chess Club and I had somehow missed the memo.

So I went back to my desk, asked about starting a chess club that anyone could join, and I was told that would be "insulting to the Asian Chess Club". Turns out I never got to play any chess there.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[swillden]

Because who gets promoted to management is entirely based on merit, right?

Sadly no. In my experience, who gets promoted to management has more to do with who you're friends with than actual ability.

Please note that gender and race were not mentioned *once* in the above.

But they're still there. What you've described constitutes deep and systematic racism and sexism that place serious obstacles in front of anyone who isn't the right race and gender. Just because no one is doing it "on purpose", that everyone has good intentions and thinks they're doing their best to be fair doesn't mean it isn't happening. It's the result of pervasive unconscious biases.

So, how do you overcome those unconscious biases, break the stranglehold of the good old boys' network on management positions (or a thousand other similar structures)? How do you root out the unconscious biases and make the people who hold them see that they do? Remember, these are well-intentioned people who consider themselves to be kind, and fair... but they just tend to hang out with their own kind, so that's who they know, and who gets promoted.

Serious question. What's your answer? Just letting the self-reinforcing system continue isn't a good one. So what do you do?

Re:this is really getting tiring

[ZenShadow]

You start your own company. Nothin' stopping you.

Just sayin'.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[russotto]

Different people from different viewpoints are almost invariably GOOD for an organization. Those that don't have diversity tend to wither and die due to stagnation.

If they believed that were so, organizations which tout "diversity" wouldn't be so intolerant of diverse viewpoints (c.f. Mozilla, Grubhub)

Re:this is really getting tiring

[grasshoppa]

But they're still there. What you've described constitutes deep and systematic racism and sexism that place serious obstacles in front of anyone who isn't the right race and gender. Just because no one is doing it "on purpose", that everyone has good intentions and thinks they're doing their best to be fair doesn't mean it isn't happening. It's the result of pervasive unconscious biases.

Prove it. Prove that's what's happening. You are making an extraordinary claim, you must justify it.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[grasshoppa]

You start your own company. Nothin' stopping you.

Then [s]he could make sure to hire and promote the right genders and colors to ensure diversity.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[swillden]

But they're still there. What you've described constitutes deep and systematic racism and sexism that place serious obstacles in front of anyone who isn't the right race and gender. Just because no one is doing it "on purpose", that everyone has good intentions and thinks they're doing their best to be fair doesn't mean it isn't happening. It's the result of pervasive unconscious biases.

Prove it. Prove that's what's happening. You are making an extraordinary claim, you must justify it.

You described it! If you still can't see it, I can't help you.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[swillden]

You start your own company. Nothin' stopping you.

Just sayin'.

So, your answer is to ignore it. I see.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

If I have to shave my beard, to get the job I'm applying for, whelp, I'll look elsewhere for a job.

Sadly, I've ran across companies over the past decade who still want the 60's era NASA nerd looks, yes even today. Of course this is IT....

While 'the best person for the job regardless of race or gender is how it should be, nothing else, is a nice sentiment, reality DOES NOT reflect that.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[grasshoppa]

No, all I said is it had more to do with who you're friends with.

Unless you're suggesting that you can only be friends with people of the same gender and color as yourself. That may apply to you, but some of us aren't so...uh..."discerning"...when it comes to who our friends are.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[rtb61]

How about managements spawn. That will get you more places than anything else will. Hell, they will hire two at a time to fill those jobs, one the spawn gets paid to do nothing much what so ever and their 'assistant' that does the actual job and gets paid bugger all, only to be fired when they are blamed for the spawns fuck up.

Petitions are as stupid as fuck, seriously, sign those and you screw over your career. To do that stuff you absolutely require the protection of Unions. Unhappy with company policies, secretly get it in writing, forward it to https://wikileaks.org/ and work on finding employment else where. Don't like bad management, catch them breaking the law and report them via https://wikileaks.org/ (whistle blowers are persona non grata in most corrupt democracies, especially the US, thanks, Uncle Tom Obama).

Actually catching and implicating management in prosecutable crimes is a smart career move, if you don't get caught. It creates many vacancies at the top, corrupt management types will drag down those corrupt employees who assisted them ie Wells Fargo, lots of job opportunities created there ;). You could even just send the information anonymously to the applicable three letter agency, so not just FBI but also SEC and even the NSA (get a bunch fired for espionage or treason, alls fair in corrupt corporate politics). Working you way up the corporate ladder is a lot easier if you can knock a few off that ladder on the rungs above you, just make sure they don't drop in your on the way down ;D.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Tablizer]

What exactly is "refuse to assimilate"? Not eating the same foods? Not having the same religion? Not listening to the same music?

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, you know, you're just a mediocre white guy who's scared he'll be out of a job soon.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2017/03/13/gender-quotas-and-the-crisis-of-the-mediocre-man/

But, you know, I'm just being all SJW with my "facts" and "views based on evidence and science." I know I'm just touting those liberal biases based on reality.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[KozmoStevnNaut]

I'm guessing your last name isn't "Abdul" or "Hussein".

Illegal discrimination is alive and well.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

So what is *your* solution to all of this "systematic racism and sexism" and "unconscious biases"? Because the only "solutions" I've heard are explicit racism and sexism to counteract this theoretical "systemic" sexism and racism.

Re: this is really getting tiring

[KozmoStevnNaut]

It's not rightist and centrists who keep bringing traits like race, gender, sexual preference, and so on into every situation and discussion. They aren't constantly pushing identity politics. It's the leftists who are doing that.

That's only because the rightwingers and other assorted bigots are perfectly OK with the status quo, where brown people, non-straight people, women and people with middle-eastern sounding names are routinely rejected for jobs at much higher rates than straight white males.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they're trying to imply that only white males have friends.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[serviscope_minor]

I'm not sure how many of my professors could hack it outside of academia, but not so many

  The life of young academics is completely brutal. I used to be one. I left, bought a house and started a startup. Both of those are considered rather stressful. I did both at the same time and frankly it was a holiday compared to my academic staff job (assistant prof equivalent).

In my field, there's a lot of cross overbetween academia and industry, and the academic jobs are much more work, much more stress and much less pay, pretty much uniformly.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Ill stay anonymous for obvious reasons.

There is a gender studies department at my university (as at most universities these days) and they do not have anything better to do than mess around. One day two came to Physics Department, claiming that we discriminate women because about 2/3 of lecturers and researchers are men. The department head was prepared (at least they were decent enought to announce the visit) and pointed out that on the contrary: about 85% of job applicants for lecturing positions are males so females have better chance (for unknown reasons) to get the job. Still that was not enough to convince them (and they did not get the simple statistics) demanding in the future to be present during every job interview and possible selection (living in former communist country I remember times when delegated members communist party were doing this kind of disgusting "over-viewings"). He politely refused but after further theads that he will be forceced to do so anyway by the university officials he got pissed off and called the provost, got official support and recommendation just to kick them out of the building. On the way out he sarcastically asked how many males do they have at gender studies and if they do not discriminate males there ... but they were unable (or rather did not want) to answer. For curiosity we have checked that later: there is no single male within their staff.

There is a push in the EU for LEGAL requirements and laws for big companies to have certain percentage of women on their boards of directors. My colleague (btw a very competent, confident woman) said she would never want to work in a such positions with such requirements ... because the other colleagues might look at her she's got the job only to fulfil the stupid directive, possibly replacing more competent person.

Unfortunately EU parliament and commission might go for it, inducing more animosity towards beaurocratic Brussels and further contribute to EU disintegration. They never learn, BrExit did not shake them up at all.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

But they're still there. What you've described constitutes deep and systematic racism and sexism that place serious obstacles in front of anyone who isn't the right race and gender. Just because no one is doing it "on purpose", that everyone has good intentions and thinks they're doing their best to be fair doesn't mean it isn't happening. It's the result of pervasive unconscious biases.

So, how do you overcome those unconscious biases, break the stranglehold of the good old boys' network on management positions (or a thousand other similar structures)? How do you root out the unconscious biases and make the people who hold them see that they do?

Quantifying unconscious bias akin to ghost hunting because by definition it's bias we don't even know we have. I can accept that everyone has their own bias which manifests in their thoughts and actions, but persecuting thought crimes is generally considered a bad thing (and even more so if they're thoughts you don't even know you have), so we can only base any course of action we take on actions that were taken. For example, if someone is accused of being passed on for a promotion because he's from some minority, then the onus is on the accuser to demonstrate that using employee reports, interviews with coworkers, etc., and simply saying "I'm from X group and was passed on for a promotion" is not evidence of racism.

Unconscious bias is not a problem that can be solved without enormous invasions to privacy, likely involving having people be plugged into some neural network, but at that point we may as well be robots if we can only think what the network allows us to think. And don't forget that just because that there are a bunch of white CEOs doesn't mean that their peers were more deserving because equality of opportunity is not the same as equality of outcome. Deal with the cases you can demonstrate and stop trying to bring race politics into every little thing just because of an unequal outcome.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[RuffMasterD]

No, no, no, nothing that convoluted. AC can tell how integrated a job applicant is just by looking at their name. Praveen Singh has clearly not integrated. But if he changed his name to John Fontaine... now that is a well integrated citizen right there. Watch how he confidently holds everybody’s attention in the palm of his hand with his crisp American accent and charismatic style. I'm being sarcastic of course, but sadly there is plenty of evidence that employers suffer that kind of unconscious bias.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Trailer Trash]

- Different people from different viewpoints are almost invariably GOOD for an organization. Those that don't have diversity tend to wither and die due to stagnation.

Really? Why don't you give us a single example. I'm making it easy for you: I know there are just thousands of such companies <eyeroll> so surely you can name just one. Right?

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, some aren't so discerning.... but just try making friends with C level management wherever you are employed, let us know how that goes. Unless you're already in that category. I know I have observed blatant race, sex, religious, and even college (better have gone to the "right" school, and it's not even ivy league or necessarily prestigious) discrimination at the few places I have worked.
Yes, it's anecdotal and doesn't provide evidence of frequency but does provide evidence of existence.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[ganjadude]

no, the answer is you dont get to tell others how to run their businesses.

if you dont like it you start your own. Stop with the BS

Re:this is really getting tiring

[ganjadude]

that wasnt proof in the slightest way though. This is the problem with your way of thinking. you see a problem that doesnt exist, you have no solutions that arent in of themselves racist to fix the problem because forced diversity IS racism.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[ganjadude]

you are an AC, you dont have facts

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

You may make them run for a Safe Space. Freedom of Speech = Hate Speech This is where this will end.

Re: this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

No they work for living and don't have time to argue about non-issues. I wonder in 50 years if they are going to realize like the students from the 60's, that they were failures and did not accomplish anything of note. Except elect Nixon and then create Reagan and get him all the way to the White House, see any history repeating itself! Go Left Young Man, Rejuvenate the Right! Well Done.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a Masters and the people who were doing the interviews were so intimidated that I was smarter then they were, they ended up hiring the wife of a friend. No real IT background, diversity at work.

Re: this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think you live in the same world everyone else does. I've worked all over, and in many different companies as a contractor. I've never seen anything to indicate that people's names have affected their ability to get a job. I have never seen anything to indicate people's skin color or sexuality affected their ability to get a job. I _have_ seen plenty where women were given jobs just for being women. Unless people are showing up with a giant rainbow jacket on, and their partner holding their hand... how would someone know if a person were gay or not? Sometimes there are indicators, yes, but in many cases there isn't. My best friend has 0 indicators, especially since he has six kids from a previous marriage. Admit it. The only group of people who don't have any laws protecting them from discrimination are straight, white males. They aren't whining for any either, just fair treatment. Perhaps you should find a new place to project your inner feelings onto.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

All other immigrants to come after the country was established have had their period of living in their small groups, and then they merge into the general population of the country. They keep their history and traditions, but adapt to the language, customs and laws of the country they joined. At some point in time, certain groups of immigrants chose to quit bothering with the second phase and decided to remain in their small groups where they can attempt to live like they never left their country.

But you knew that, you were just being intentionally obtuse. Virtue signaling perhaps? I don't know.

Re: this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it certainly couldn't be due to language/accent barriers, or low qualifications, or bad vibes from the interview process... no, no, no, they're all racists, sexists, and bigots who want to keep the minorities down. Sounds quite a bit like a crazy conspiracy theory, doesn't it?

Put yourself in the shoes of a hiring manager. You are interviewing candidates for your team. You don't have federally mandated requirements to staff your team with x% of women and minorities. Do you pick the middle-eastern guy that appears qualified on paper, but you can barely understand his broken english and thick accent (and therefore are not entirely sure of his real capabilities)? Do you pick the woman that is sociable, likeable, and qualified, but has little or no experience in the field? Do you pick the qualified black guy that looks and acts like he wouldn't get along with any of the other team members? Or do you pick the white guy that is a little under-qualified, but has an instant connection with the rest of the team and has a track record of learning and adapting quickly? Notice I left out the non-straight bit of your tripe, because unlike your skin color or gender, nobody should really be able to tell what your sexual orientation is based on looks alone.

Point being, rarely will you find a perfect candidate, but there are things to look for beyond qualifications that set candidates apart from one another... a main one being how well do they communicate, another main one being how well do they fit into the existing team? These people are here to get a job done, not hold hands, sing Kumbaya, and smugly gloat over how supremely awesome they are for embracing diversity. Sure, there may be problems with minorities and women not getting an offer over a white guy, but the answer is not federally mandated regulation that hurts all companies. I don't know what the answer is, but it's certainly not "force companies to hire people a certain % of races and genders, even if they are not qualified or not a good fit". Nowadays, in the scenario above, the hiring manager might be forced to a choice of "hire the middle-eastern guy nobody can understand, or keep the position open indefinitely until some other, more well-articulated middle-eastern guy applies... even though we needed this position filled a month ago".

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Tablizer]

What's that have to do with job merit? Sure, English language proficiency matters in the office and I don't dispute that, but you seem to be talking about OTHER things beyond language.

I haven't seen anything refuting my original point. I categorize English skills as a direct merit for the job. Music, food, history, sports, etc. should be moot to hiring decisions, but in practice it's not. Human habit is to hire people more like ones self.

Re: this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Zero barrier...... unless your name is black sounding. Or youre female and ask for equal pay. Orany of a host of other factors that collectively prove your post is bullshit

Re: this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Please look up the definition for barrier, and then kindly shut the fuck ip. Education level IS a barrier, and not kne that is rqually solvable. Like most things the position in life you are born jnto has a greater influence on education level than personal effort.

Re: this is really getting tiring

[KozmoStevnNaut]

Yeah, it certainly couldn't be due to language/accent barriers, or low qualifications, or bad vibes from the interview process... no, no, no, they're all racists, sexists, and bigots who want to keep the minorities down. Sounds quite a bit like a crazy conspiracy theory, doesn't it?

I am talking about people where those barriers do not exist, people who are second or even third generation citizens, people with the relevant education (achieved in this country!), with a good work ethic.

The statistic don't lie. You are more likely to be turned down if your name is "ethnic sounding" and you're not white.

Re: this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Probabilty dictates that outcomes should somewhat match demographics if all else is equal. Ie, 50% women would lead to wxpectation of at least 40%. 13% black should expect at least 10%. Instead we have 95% white male, no where near a probabilistically realistoc outcome.

So yes in fact, equality of opportunity SHOULD lead to equality of outcome.

Re: this is really getting tiring

[grasshoppa]

So yes in fact, equality of opportunity SHOULD lead to equality of outcome.

I normally don't respond to ACs, but I was hoping someone would bring this up.

In any homogeneous population group, you'd be absolutely correct. The problem, then, is that we do not have a homogeneous population group, but where you attribute the discrepancy to discrimination, I feel you are dismissing the elephant in the room; biological differences between the groups.

Do you think the NBA has a racism problem because whites represent 25% of the players? Where are the calls for diversity there?

Answer that, and you start to understand why some of us think these calls to prioritize diversity over all less are ridiculous.

Re: this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

White people are rejected from NBA and NFL rosters at much higher rates, therefore the NBA and NFL are racist.

This is your logic, don't try to argue otherwise.

Re:this is really getting tiring

[Anonymous Coward]

Time to go out of your confort zone and google "diversity trumps ability"

Sure To Be Effective

[tsqr]

I'm convinced that these petitions will be at least as effective as the ones posted on whitehouse.gov.

Re:Sure To Be Effective

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm convinced that these petitions will be at least as effective as the ones posted on whitehouse.gov.

Yep, a Facebook friend was recently circulating one of those Change.org petitions. You know that site that was so effective during the Obama-era? Apparently somehow it's going to actually get things done this time around.

Re:Sure To Be Effective

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference:

Whitehouse.gov petitions - if they get the appropriate number of signatures, someone will respond with why they won't follow the petition
change.org petition- nobody will ever actually reads it

Re:Sure To Be Effective

[skids]

Eh, the real action is submitting comments at regulations.gov.

e.g. https://www.regulations.gov/do...

Re:Sure To Be Effective

[Anonymous Coward]

Certainly; you can get fired for getting on them, whereas .gov activity is (or should anyway be) rather more sacred.

Re:Sure To Be Effective

[Anonymous Coward]

You sure it isn't whitehouse.com?

I petitioned them and they were kinda OK with it, they just wanted some dough.

Re:Sure To Be Effective

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? I'm expecting that Death Star any day now...

Simple solution

[Snufu]

Just ask your union... Oh.

Re:Simple solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Even better, start your own company.

Re:Simple solution

[Penguinisto]

Even better - go work for a (relatively more) sane company. Let the dysfunctional companies get stuck with dysfunctional employees. Eventually they (the companies) die.

Re:Simple solution

[DickBreath]

Do you realize what a crazy idea that is?

First, that would take actual hard work, and money.

Second, someone has already done the work for you, as they should, and started a company for you to have a say in.

Re:Simple solution

[__aaclcg7560]

Do you realize what a crazy idea that is?

"Why climb the corporate ladder when you can own it?" — Rich Dad, Poor Dad

Re:Simple solution

[Anonymous Coward]

My Dad owned his own company, his advice to me, work for someone else. Let them worry about the economy/payroll/taxes, you will be much happier going home and not worrying about things at night. So I work for someone else and don't worry about anything really. Never think about signing a petition to get myself fired. That is just short sighted, college thinking. If these people thought this was a good idea they would have done something other then attempting to shame there workplace into getting there way. I am sure they released it on-line to try and inoculate themselves from being fired. Too bad, people have long memories so when they need sacrifices to the new Media Gods. (youTube) They have conveniently composed a list for HR to walk through. That will be one of the benefits, the other is that these names will be available to other employers so they can avoid these people in the future.

How cute

[Anonymous Coward]

The workers think they have an opinion that matters.

The current American culture gives absolutely no shits what workers think, only that they show up and do what it says on the tin.

You want to have an opinion? Fight for it. Walk out. Organize. Use the tools that are available to you, not spineless open letters that only provide the status quo with targets to aim at.

And, btw, when you have that opinion, don't give it up. Remind everybody that you fought hard for the right to have a voice, as opposed to workers in the 70s, 80s, and 90s that happily gave up their ability to affect change.

Re:How cute

[RightwingNutjob]

Oh sure. I'll take your money, but instead of doing the work I'm being paid to do, I'll agitate and rabble rouse and tell you with a straight face that it's OK because I'm the good guys. Do people not have any concept of separating their personal and professional lives? On the clock/off the clock? No drinking on the job, but having a beer with friends after work? Seriously...

Re:How cute

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want an opinion on running the business, put your money on the table and run your own business. Unless you're taking the risk, it's not your right.

Re:How cute

[zifn4b]

The workers think they have an opinion that matters.

The current American culture gives absolutely no shits what workers think, only that they show up and do what it says on the tin.

You want to have an opinion? Fight for it. Walk out. Organize. Use the tools that are available to you, not spineless open letters that only provide the status quo with targets to aim at.

And, btw, when you have that opinion, don't give it up. Remind everybody that you fought hard for the right to have a voice, as opposed to workers in the 70s, 80s, and 90s that happily gave up their ability to affect change.

Oh my, how un-American! *snicker* Unions are against your "right to work", don't you remember? ;) Don't let the unions take away your right to work! America is a bizarre, twisted land. But American business leaders will tell you that democratic socialist (read: soshulism) countries in Europe that actually encourage both representation for the workers and the business to achieve compromise and balance are the road to fiery perdition even though the data from sources like the OECD paints the opposite picture. The data is a lie! :P

Re:How cute

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess is you did not work in the 70's, 80's, 90's? I did, double digit unemployment where I was when iron ore/steal hit the outs. It is difficult to complain about touchy feel-ly things when you can't find a job period. '79 was pretty bad and then we got Reagan and everybody drank the koolaid and things looked better and they were except in certain area's. The 80's were great if you were in the right industries. The 90's were better and then we hit the recession in '92, got Clinton and malaise for the rest of the decade. I don't know where you were, but it was a tough set of decades to work through and I was glad to get a paycheck.

the way i see petitions

[Anonymous Coward]

so you got 50,000 signatures but over 10 million people did not sign it. therefore your argument is futile.

Re:Lazy Millennial SJWs

[MightyMartian]

This is a pretty good example of the basement dwelling Aspies who waste so many electrons on the Internet.

Typical millennial thinking

[Anonymous Coward]

The person in charge of you is your boss, and tells you what to do. There is no communication in the other direction other than "yes, sir."

Business is not a democracy.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[__aaclcg7560]

The person in charge of you is your boss, and tells you what to do.

Unless you're a contractor. Your boss can direct your work but they can't tell you what to do. Otherwise, you're an employee and the employer has deliberately misclassified you to commit tax fraud.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[RightwingNutjob]

Takes two to dance that dance. Don't pretend that being a "contractor" doesn't have advantages for the one being the contractor. In my line of work, contractors don't get "company" benefits and are the first to go when business slows down, but unlike us "first class citizens" with 401k match and benefits, they get to charge by the hour whereas we are salaried.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[fluffernutter]

Where I am they treat contractors exactly the same as employees, except they get a bit extra money rather then health benefits.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[__aaclcg7560]

Where I am they treat contractors exactly the same as employees, except they get a bit extra money rather then health benefits.

Since I work for contracting agencies, I get the extra money and a full benefit package.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[__aaclcg7560]

In my line of work, contractors don't get "company" benefits and are the first to go when business slows down, but unlike us "first class citizens" with 401k match and benefits, they get to charge by the hour whereas we are salaried.

I never work directly for the clients. I work as an employee for a contracting agency that provides a full benefit package to stay competitive in the labor market. I'm usually the "contractor" that the company brings in after they fire all the full-time staff members to clean up the mess.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[RightwingNutjob]

Either way, your staffing firm charges by the hour of which you get (I would guess) a pretty high percentage. People who rail against contractors just don't know what they're talking about.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[Anonymous Coward]

>Either way, your staffing firm charges by the hour of which you get (I would guess) a pretty high percentage. People who rail against contractors just don't know what they're talking about.

Yes, and in sane countries salaried positions had the union negotiate the max number of hours per week, too. So it's not all that different.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[RightwingNutjob]

Uh huh. White collar work and hourly caps don't really mix. Sane countries like France have abysmal unemployment numbers because of thinking like that.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you just gave management the list of who to fire first, working for old media it isn't like you are going to make it to retirement working for a newspaper. Poor job choice. Poor-er decision to paint a target on your back. Find a different job, give notice, at the exit interview tell them how great they are so they will give you a great reference. Let them keep there culture and don't help them fix it.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[Anonymous Coward]

UK based software engineer here, I do 37.5 hours a week salaried. they want me to work more? they pay me for it or i dont do it.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[__aaclcg7560]

I think you just gave management the list of who to fire first, working for old media it isn't like you are going to make it to retirement working for a newspaper. Poor job choice. Poor-er decision to paint a target on your back.

What make you think that I'm associated with "old media" in general and newspapers in particular? Those are two industries that I never worked in.

Find a different job, give notice, at the exit interview tell them how great they are so they will give you a great reference.

I've been a contractor for 20+ years. The trend among Fortune 500 companies for the last 20+ years is to hire more contractors. I've gotten great references because I'm the guy who gets called in to clean up the messes left behind by full-time employees or contractors.

Re:Typical millennial thinking

[__aaclcg7560]

Yes, and in sane countries salaried positions had the union negotiate the max number of hours per week, too.

I haven't worked overtime in over a decade because my employment contracts prohibits me from working over 40 hours a week. Fortune 500 companies and the government don't want to pay overtime at my rate.

The Ol' Search-And-Replace

[Anonymous Coward]

>Nearly all the people at high levels at the paper deciding what we cover and how are Jews.

Interns != Employees

[Rob Riggs]

That intern was taught an invaluable business lesson.

Re:Interns != Employees

[chispito]

That intern was taught an invaluable business lesson.

Something something nail, hammer!

If you don't like the culture where you work, and your suggestion box entries seem to disappear into the ether, then get a different job, explaining why you chose to leave. If that doesn't change the culture, then chances are you weren't valuable enough for them to care about your petition anyway.

You could also try to work your way into management, such that you're entrusted with decisions that affect the area you want to change. But let's be honest--by that point you've probably come around to the company's point of view on most things.

Only if there was something

[future assassin]

say we used the word Union. It would be an organization of people from the same industry banded for the benefit of all workers. Maybe the workers could donate a little of their monthly income so the Union could hire lawyers and lobbying power. Its just an idea...

Re:Only if there was something

[Penguinisto]

...and in 20 years when management decides to offshore *all* of its tech work to India (due to bloated contracts with said unions, bloated wages, and a systme where the incompetent could never get fired, let alone done so in a timely manner), we can all sit back and say we at least tried, right?

Re:Only if there was something

[Anonymous Coward]

Unions only serve to protect the least amongst the employees. That's why they uniformly prevent crappy folk from getting fired for cause.

Re:Only if there was something

[chispito]

say we used the word Union. It would be an organization of people from the same industry banded for the benefit of all workers. Maybe the workers could donate a little of their monthly income so the Union could hire lawyers and lobbying power. Its just an idea...

These are not petitions for things unions care about, like benefits, pay, and work conditions. It is in a union's best interest to keep its members stably employed so that those union dues keep creeping higher. Diversifying the workforce has little to do with this.

Re:Only if there was something

[zifn4b]

...and in 20 years when management decides to offshore *all* of its tech work to India (due to bloated contracts with said unions, bloated wages, and a systme where the incompetent could never get fired, let alone done so in a timely manner), we can all sit back and say we at least tried, right?

After we get done with building the wall along the Mexican border, we're going to take all the knowledge and expertise we gained from that to create a gigantic dome around the United States to solve this problem.

Re:Only if there was something

[cmdr_klarg]

Unions only serve to protect the least amongst the employees. That's why they uniformly prevent crappy folk from getting fired for cause.

Bullshit. Unions exist because at one point or another Management decided it would be more profitable to shit on their employees rather than treat them fairly.

Companies that take care of their employees generally don't need to worry about unions.

Re:Only if there was something

[Anonymous Coward]

Big IT is dead, H1B was the death-nell. Find the small company and be invaluable, otherwise find a government contract. City/County/State/Federal or get a big bank account and get used to being un-employed. Only advice I have for new hires, that from decades of IT work.

What a bullshit level of entitlement!

[Anonymous Coward]

First, I say this from the perspective of someone who has been an employee in a number of companies for nearly 50 years, not an employer!

If employees want a say in how a company is run they should go out and start their own. It is the employer's right, within the relevant laws and regulations governing the business, to decide how the company is run. Put up or fuck off!

Re:What a bullshit level of entitlement!

[ganjadude]

not sure why this got modded down, its entirely accurate

Stock holding?

[cyocum]

Why not club together with your fellow employees to collectively purchase stock in the company that you work for? That way, you can force issues at the board level when management comes up for re-election.

Re:Stock holding?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not club together with your fellow employees to collectively purchase stock in the company that you work for? That way, you can force issues at the board level when management comes up for re-election.

Gonna need a lot of that stock as the board member tend to hold the special shares that give them more votes per share.

Re:Stock holding?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who are you kidding? Like most of the rank and file employees of a corp could ever purchase enough stock to form a voting block big enough to kick out management... when almost all stock of most corps is owned by IRA and 401(K) accounts, that generally vote "do what management wants" unless it's totally whacked out.

Also, if you think the management of a company is terrible enough to want to vote it out, WHY would you put your small amount of investment money into it? $65000 in an a single stock might be a lot of money to you, but to most companies, that'd be less than 0.1% of outstanding market cap, and less than useless as a voting block. To one company in particular, $65000 is only enough to buy a bit more than a quarter share out of 1.6+ million.

Suppose you wanted to buy out a small retailer like say, Target. There's about 552M shares outstanding. You'd need probably 10% to even get the board to consider paying attention to your desires. If the shares you purchase are through the company's own stock purchase plan, they won't count because most of those vote as the board recommends. 55M shares at about $55 each is $3.025B, leaving each of the 341K employee's share to get this block at... $8870 or so.
Multiply by 5 to get a more guaranteed vote out. How many Target employees would have $8K discretionary spending money? Very few.

Another problem: Many companies have policies that prevent this sort of thing from working very well, called "Poison Pill" clauses, in Shareholder Rights Agreements. So even 51% of shares may not be enough to guarantee getting rid of current management.

This would only work at very small companies. or companies I wouldn't want to own stock in for any reason.

Re:Stock holding?

[Anonymous Coward]

What happen if the idea screw up the company profit, and the company value goes to zero?
Of course, it is always possible, that you are right, and the company value goes to the moon.

Re:Stock holding?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah! In fact, why even accept a paycheck? We could just reinvest all our earnings into the company we work for through some sort of company store!

Re:Stock holding?

[Trailer Trash]

Why not club together with your fellow employees to collectively purchase stock in the company that you work for? That way, you can force issues at the board level when management comes up for re-election.

As I mentioned elsewhere, Publix is employee-owned. Anybody not doing what you suggests doesn't understand ownership.

Natural byproduct

[GeekWithAKnife]

You know how these big companies foster "local culture"? Because that's what makes us all "a family". So some people end up believing it and because they and others believe it they become a community, they become a family. isn't it normal for members of the community to have a say? -it can certainly be a win/win for both employee and employer. Some C level execs think "culture" is the BS to feed the peasants so they work harder for free...that's even true to an extent but when those peasants unite; those managers which are arrogant and do think of rank and file as peasants often end up being circumvented. Great employees have choices. Great companies need those employees. Often one without the other amounts to less. Wouldn't you want to be in a company that actually takes note of how you think things should run if there'sa chance that it's actually a better way?! There are few reasons to stay and give your best for a company that is all flash and no substance. (It's late and I'm on morphine so apologies if this turned into a random rant)

Re:Natural byproduct

[Anonymous Coward]

they and others believe it they become a community, they become a family. isn't it normal for members of the community to have a say?

No, you little bastard, now go to your room and manufacturer 30 more widgets.

Sheesh, this family is going to be the death of me, I swear.

Re:Natural byproduct

[swb]

I've usually found that *most* companies hedge a lot on their culture propaganda, to the point it which it is usually meaningless drivel. The downside is that since it is content-free, nobody cares and they doesn't do anything for them or the peasants.

When they put too much meaning into the culture propaganda, people tend to believe it and expect follow-through, which they seldom get because it's propaganda. This results in a poisoning of the well and a further loss of credibility.

Re:Natural byproduct

[Penguinisto]

Actually, a culture forms whether or not management fosters one. Oftentimes, a culture will form that is decidedly counter to what management wants to foster.

If management is a bunch of cut-throat snakes, the employees adapt and form their own counter-culture of sorts. The result only gets uglier over time, and management usually doesn't find out until the company is rapidly sinking (at which time many of them have either jumped ship or are about to).

Re: Natural byproduct

[GeekWithAKnife]

Rings true. I've not considered that. Shame I cannot mod you up.

worker co-operatives

[Presto Vivace]

unions are good, worker co-operatives are better https://medium.com/@PrestoViva...

No more redefining words

[Anonymous Coward]

"Nearly all the people at high levels at the paper deciding what we cover and how are white men,"

Having a problem with this is racist and sexist. Full fucking stop.

Re:No more redefining words

[Anonymous Coward]

take it a step further..
Has any one stepped up, to try and get into that niche??
I mean has the company identified an individual with the "right stuff" to be in this lofty position?
some things to realize,
1. is there any one on staff to stepup with the right skills
2. has the company sought out that individual?
3. are the people making the petition just but hurt because they have been there for quite a long time, but cant move up the traditional path because they lack the skills..

N/t

[Anonymous Coward]

Rob Malda's a jabroni.

what people dont understand..

[Anonymous Coward]

SO,, what people dont understand is, In america, if you dont like your job, get a new one.. Find one that suits your needs..
There is NO one holding you to a job you dont like..
This sounds like lazyness.
why should I look for a new job when I may be able to change the one I'm at now to suit my needs. It's easier I mean my boss allows others to speak their mind whether on topic or not, I should leverage that..

BOTTOM LINE,
"THE GOLDEN RULE"

THEY WHOM HOLD THE GOLD, MAKE THE RULES..

If you dont like what you see, move along..
if you cant, or are unable to, get a new profession..
Simple for most, difficult for others.
also keep in mind Control is an illusion..

Nop. Wanna run a business? Start one.

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of them will start a business and ask for a loan which will be rejected due to the high risk nature of communist business plan, then they will sue the bank on the grounds that they also deserve a loan, just like the white, non socially-just businesses get....
Eventually they will run 20th Century Motor Company into the ground and make John Galt destroy America to rebuid it anew!
Wow! How the hell did she know about SJWs so long ago? Amazing!!!

so, unionize, and get a contract

[swschrad]

then you get a chance at the table.

IBM / Oracle H1B are being forced to do what the

[Joe_Dragon]

IBM / Oracle H1B's are being forced to do what the boss wants or they get canned and sent home.
We need real unions with full union rights under the law + full in enforcement of the H1B's laws with a $100K-150K min wage.

Not precisely correct

[argStyopa]

What we have is a new generation that:
- believes they are ENTITLED to have what they want
- has never been told "no" by their parents
- believes Social Media can effect change

1 + 2 + 3 = people who believe "thumbs up"ing some petition is actually going to change anything.

Hint: nothing changes in a company unless a) you can show them how it saves money and doesn't cost anywhere else, or b) threaten their income.

Other hint: be careful with b because you're ENTIRELY REPLACEABLE and any company worth their salt can figure out who actually posted that 'call to action' on Reddit, even if you used your 'totally unbreakable' burner id.

Re:Not precisely correct

[__aaclcg7560]

What we have is a new generation that:
- believes they are ENTITLED to have what they want
- has never been told "no" by their parents
- believes that rock n' roll, sex and drugs can effect change

FTFY

Are they vested in the company?

[ITRambo]

Employees generally have the right to express a non-attack style opinion, on the job. Except for invaluable employees, managers, executives, or part owners, it makes no sense to give all employees a say in how a company is run. That's not not how business works. If I hire a worker, I welcome their opinions, But, unless they're hired to manage a specific area of my business, they can't hold the reins.

All this says to me..

[Anonymous Coward]

...is that there are 160 people that need to be fired. If they want diversity, we can start with them.

Simply, it isn't their Company.

[Anonymous Coward]

The owners are share holders, partners, single entrepreneurs. Employees are not owners and have nothing invested in the company have ZERO rights to how a company is run and as an owner of a company I don't give these shitheads a second thought and would fire any one who things they have a say.

too f*cking bad

[Anonymous Coward]

you want to be the boss and make the rules?
you put your house and credit on the line to start the business, otherwise, take your check and shut the hell up.

So

[Dunbal]

"Nearly all the people at high levels at the paper deciding what we cover and how are white men,"

Nearly all. So not, in fact, all. So how many non whites is "enough"? Does it matter who we replace, so long as we're just replacing a white guy? And isn't that a little, oh, I dunno - racist? You can't scream racism when you propose a racist solution.

Re:So

[Anonymous Coward]

It's okay because they redefined racism to exclude discrimination against whites. That's how you have your cake and eat it too.

Only millennials

[Anonymous Coward]

Would create a petition about dress code, or regard that a mission critical factor for employment or 'how a company is run'. Grow up, work is not high school. This piece doesn't exactly do anything to dispel the notion that millennials are pathetic whiners. They practically beg people to fire them.

Objecting to what?

[dog77]

Any idea what some IBM employees found objectional in CEO Ginni Rometty's letter to US president Donald Trump? https://www.ibm.com/blogs/poli...

Was it that he congratulated Trump on his victory? Otherwise it seems very business focused and not political at all.

They were called worker demands

[Anonymous Coward]

And when Americans still had a spine they were followed up with strikes after management ignored them. Seriously, when did Americans become such domesticated sheep? Even the French, those cheese eating surrender monkeys, have more courage than Americans these days.

Americans are a bunch of cowards these days. They need to stand up and their hind legs like human beings and demand to be treated with fairness and justice.

I have seen dress pants / ties / nice shits cablei

[Joe_Dragon]

I have seen dress pants / ties / nice shits cabling / hooking and unhook systems from desks jobs. That can get measly fast.

dress pants, button-down shirt and tie preferred for a temp PC move in an office building job.

Worker revolution will be coming

[Nyder]

It's pretty obvious to me that the worker revolution is going to be happening in the next 20 years if not sooner. The rich keep trying to squeeze whatever they can out of people and the environment and the younger generation is pissed.

Re:Worker revolution will be coming

[Anonymous Coward]

BWAHAHAHAHA so what? the younger generation was also pissed in 1968 about the exact same thing.

Re:Worker revolution will be coming

[Anonymous Coward]

IMO "the rich getting richer" is just fine...so long as the poor are improving their lot, too.

Where we run into trouble is when the rich keep getting richer by taking what little remains to the poor.

Re:Worker revolution will be coming

[ebvwfbw]

So you're saying we can look forward to a feudal system in the next 20 years. You know, where women, minorities have no say at all. Most are in ... basic slavery. Yes, that's what we need, because from history that's what happens when you take down a free society like the US is right how.

Only really stupid people would do that.

Here's a good example

[Walter White]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

AFAIK this is real.

(As heard on the No Agenda podcast.)

Translation

[axewolf]

One of the few (relatively) high-quality publication becomes targeted by the mysterious puppetmasters behind the "social justice" movement with the goal of stopping it from providing quality information to plebians

It's called "buy a stake in the company".

[Chas]

Then they can have their say. Even if their .0001% holding accomplishes nothing.

Until they step up and take on some of the responsibility and risk that those owning and running said company do, they're entirely free to fuck the hell off and eat a dick.

hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

"company described in a blog about being fired en masse after signing a petition asking for a more relaxed dress code."
That is when you Tim McVeigh the fucking place.

More Than Ever, Employees Want a Say ...

[Anonymous Coward]

(I haven't seen this in a LONG time.) Here's the mandatory /. comment: And *I* want a pony.

They'll both happen at about the same time. You want a say in the business? Go start your own. Or buy (lots of) stock like someone below suggested.

You can say and talk all you want, but that doesn't mean anyone is actually listening to your wonderful ideas.

Only because...

[zifn4b]

The only reason employees feel compelled to take the wheel is because they realize that their leadership is completely incompetent and delusional. We'd really actually like REAL leaders that actually do their job so we can just do ours but that's apparently like asking for the sun, the moon and the stars anymore.

I think the best part is how there are plenty of articles about burnt out and overworked managers with self help strategies like delegating work. So, let me get this straight, you, the poor woe is me manager, that's sitting in meetings all day playing on your phone is so stressed out that you should get special privileges to delegate any work arbitrarily that you want to and get paid more money? Where's my special privilege? Why can't I delegate that fly-in on fire shit ball task that you want done yesterday? Double standard.

Publix is employee owned

[Trailer Trash]

Literally, the only way to own Publix stock is to work there. If one of the owners (that's what workers are - they get shares) is circulating a "petition" then they don't understand how ownership in a company works.

Here you might learn something important.

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq79hZdhjO0

Ummm

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't get to have any say in the way your employer does business unless you happen to own part of the company. Don't like the way the company you work for does things, go work for another company or start your own. Quit acting like an entitled brat.

You want a say?

[ogar572]

The answer is simple. Start your own company!!!! Then you can run it how ever you want!!!!

No duh...

[whitroth]

So, first you let big business destroy unions in the US, when folks grandparents fought, in many cases literally, to form, and how you feel helpless.

And a petition's going to get upper management to change their minds. I'm sure the idea of forming a union again never entered your pretty little libertarian-brainwashed heads....

Stop being racist

[Anonymous Coward]

The addressing of race or gender with zero regard to anything else is purely racism or sexism.
I don't care who says it, I don't care what their reasoning is, when you talk about race or sex, you're the problem.
You cannot start a social movement to weed out racists or sexists. All you're doing is making yourself look like a fool and whining will not help.