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Salary-Comparing Survey Identifies Top-Paid Developers, Discovers North America Pays Better (linux.com)
21,000 developers were surveyed for this year's annual survey by VisionMobile -- and for the first time, they were asked about their salaries. An anonymous reader quotes Linux.com:
[S]killed cloud and backend developers, as well as those who work in emerging technologies including Internet of Things, machine learning and augmented/virtual reality can make more money than frontend web and mobile developers whose skills have become more commoditized... The top 10 percent of salary earners in AR who live in North America earn a median salary of $219,000, compared with $169,000 for the top earning 10 percent of backend developers, according to the report... New, unskilled developers interested in emerging tech will have a harder time finding work, and earn less than their counterparts in more commoditized areas, due both to their lack of experience and fewer companies hiring in the early market.
Along with skill level and software sector, developer salaries also vary widely by where they live in the world. A web developer in North America earns a median income of $73,600 USD per year, compared with the same developer in Western Europe whose median income is $35,400 USD. Web developers in South Asia earn $11,700 in South Asia while those in Eastern Europe earn $20,800 per year.
For developers who want to move up in the world, VisionMobile suggests "Invest in your skills. Do difficult work. Improve your English. Look for opportunities internationally. Go for it. You deserve it!"
Along with skill level and software sector, developer salaries also vary widely by where they live in the world. A web developer in North America earns a median income of $73,600 USD per year, compared with the same developer in Western Europe whose median income is $35,400 USD. Web developers in South Asia earn $11,700 in South Asia while those in Eastern Europe earn $20,800 per year.
For developers who want to move up in the world, VisionMobile suggests "Invest in your skills. Do difficult work. Improve your English. Look for opportunities internationally. Go for it. You deserve it!"
Here are some direct links to avoid the form:
http://go.linuxfoundation.org/l/6342/e-of-developer-nation-2017-pdf/3qp35l
(also, the form is cool with mailinator addresses if that stops working)
https://ufile.io/26f4a
Also, here's the extracted text of the Key Insights:
• Developers who work in areas with a higher technical complexity or in very young sectors - and therefore with higher barriers to entry and ultimately fewer developers doing it - generally earn more. In Western Europe, for example, the median backend developer earns 12% more than the median web developer; a machine learning developer makes 28% more. Web and mobile development are the most commoditised.
• We’re still a long way off a global market for developers. The median earnings of web developers in Western Europe are half of those of their North American counterparts; web developers in other regions earn half again. This opens up arbitrage opportunities for developers willing to work remotely.
• C# is the most popular primary programming language amongst Augmented and Virtual Reality developers, preferred by 30% of them. This is followed by C/C++ (16%) and Java (15%). Interestingly, professionals are more likely to use C# or C++ in comparison to hobbyists.
• Almost 90% of AR/VR developers would be considered juniors by other industries’ standards, having less than 2 years experience. The industry consists of many newcomers who are inexperienced in the field - they will not be deeply invested in any tools, technologies or platforms, so any vendor has the potential to establish market leadership with the right product.
• 48% of web developers are currently using a third-party library or framework other than jQuery as their primary way of doing front-end web development. Angular and React account for 30%, leaving all the others fighting for the remaining 18%. Indeed front-end web development is such a fragmented space that no other single library or framework accounts for more than 2% of primary usage.
• Facebook’s React appears to dominate Google’s Angular in online discussion and open source activity. However, not only is Angular 2.x the primary framework for about as many developers as React (10% vs 9% globally), but Angular 1.x is still the most popular overall by a slim margin (11% use it as their primary framework). In total those using one or the other version of Angular number more than double those using React.
• Amazon Web Services (AWS) is the most popular primary cloud hosting at every company size. For the smallest companies (1-5 employees) where Amazon has just a 15% share, they face very credible competition from Microsoft (12%), Google (11%), and Digital Ocean (10%). However, when we look at larger companies, Amazon’s share grows to 26-27% at every size, Microsoft stays in the 11-13% range, while Google fades along with Digital Ocean. Google has just a 5% share of companies with more than 5,000 employees, and Digital Ocean just 4% at the same size.
• AWS is also the most popular primary cloud host with developers regardless of targeted audience, although strongest with backend developers who target large enterprises, of whom 29% are primarily using AWS. Microsoft shows greater strength equally with developers who target large enterprises, and those who target small to medium businesses (14% each). They are weaker with those targeting consumers (11%) or professionals (9%). Google shows the opposite patternbeing strongest with developers who target consumers(10%) but only half as popular with those who target large enterprises or internal employees.
• Despite the proliferation of IoT platforms and other tools, the IoT tool market is still underdeveloped and heavily fragmented. IoT developers use comparatively fewer tools than their colleagues in other software sectors. 11% of IoT developers don’t use any of the tools in our list.
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There is no difference between "front end" and "back end" anymore. The same person does both of them, and, alas, the salary doesn't change.
North America pays better, twice to three to seven times better.
H1B, outsourcing to Europe or Asia is always undercutting and threatening. There is just so much pressure on the American software developer to always keep improving and running ahead of the endless hordes of lower cost options snipping at the heels. So much so that a lot of them look at Trump to close the doors and make the race easier.
The H1B lottery is a real lottery, especially for a developer in India. It is an immediate seven fold salary increase.
This survey proves that American workers aren't being harmed by workers with H-1B visas.
Nonsense. You cannot "prove" anything with statistics. We don't know what the salary range would have been if H1B visas didn't exist. In that alternative universe American tech salaries may have been higher. Or they may have even been lower if entire teams were shifted abroad. We just don't know, and this survey "proves" nothing.
The real reason there's so much objection to the H-1B program is rampant racism
Self-interest is a more plausible explanation.
With 11K in South Asia you can live with the same quality of life as someone making $120K in the US.
Yes and no. You can't afford a car, but you can easily afford a live-in housekeeper and nanny for your kids.
If you count that our social insurances are awesome and included: yes.
Does this survey properly factor in things like healthcare and retirement costs?
Because sure, in Western Europe you earn half as much as in the US - but with that salary, you usually already have health insurance, retirement and free education for your kids covered (minus university, which is not free in a number of countries).
These little details could conceivably tilt the balance in favour of the lower salary.
Comparing AR to web/mobile/backend is just silly. The people currently working on AR have to be highly skilled in some very specialized areas, basically inventing both the software and hardware technology as they go along. It's like comparing an actual rocket scientist to an car mechanic and wondering why the scientist has a higher salary.
Also, salary is just one factor. Cost of living, especially healthcare, amount of paid holiday, having a "sick day" quota, workers' rights, maternity/paternity rights, employer spying, progressive society...
I get the impression that salaries in the US are high to make up for the lack of other stuff.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
It doesn't quite cover the difference, but yeah having one month paid vacation and universal healthcare helps to soften the blow quite a lot.
Income means nothing if I have to blow it on basic stuff like accommodation, food, school, and a many thousand dollar rainy day fund in case I stub my toe and need to go to a doctor.
North-American employers have to compensate for the fact that quality of life is significantly lower. If they didn't pay more, they would not attract any foreign employees.
This is exactly right. I would say a UK web developer would be on around 60,000 to 100,000usd. But Healthcare is free and as long as he is outside London the cost of living in his community will be low. The problem with these kind of surveys is to need to look at the cost to the company as taxes etc are so different in each country. A better comparison would be the hourly rate for a consultant.
Yo man, are you staying in Shanghai for Qingming?
The top 10 percent of salary earners in AR who live in North America earn a median salary of $219,000,
Is it just me or is that a very convoluted way of saying "95th percentile"?
Ezekiel 23:20
I seriously wouldn't get out of bed for triple that amount.
If you look beyond the internet and lower level than the popular dynamic languages you will find that engineers are highly valued beyond basic code monkey work that most people seem to aspire to these days. Not to mention the technical challenges which keep you interested.
You have some very weird numbers there. WHO claims that Spain is 7 or less, UK is 7 or less, France is 16 or less, whereas the US is 12 or more, depending on how you measure it. Source: WHO.
The EU-28 average is slightly below 12. Source: Eurostat.
Ezekiel 23:20
You are a liar. USA has twice the amount of suicides.
http://apps.who.int/gho/data/n...
Sweden: 13.2
France: 15.8
United Kingdom: 7.0
Spain: 7.0
South Korea: 36.8
Canada: 11.4
United States: 13.7
Mexico: 4.1
Oh, and suicide rates strongly correlate to the latitude (because of the amount of sunlight in winter). United States shares most of its the latitude with Southern Europe, but its suicide rate is higher:
Spain: 7.0
Italy: 6.4
Portugal: 12.5
Greece: 4.9
Malta: 6.8
Malta is basically as far south as Southern Europe goes and it is on about the same latitude as Los Alamos, New Mexico, so USA goes even further south. Seriously, suicide rates in USA suck in comparison to what they ought to be.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
This, a billion times this.
At my level, I could probably make five or more times what I make over here in Europe in the US. Easily. Trouble is, I don't even need the money I make here, so why bother?
But here I get 25 days paid vacation plus sick days on top of that (no, they don't count as vacation days here), perfect healthcare, unemployment benefit should I for some reason get unemployed (not bloody likely unless I want to, but in that case it pays, too), retirement plan, worker's protection (law commands I MUST NOT work more than 50 hours a week and even that only for a very short time, with no more than 45 hours a week on average during the year. Oh, and no more than 10 hours a day).
Try to beat that, US.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Plus worker protection laws that can't be beat. Limitation of hours per week, limitations of what your boss can impose on you, certain practices that are common in the US being outlawed, easy and free/cheap access to work related lawyers in case it gets to court (including insurance to cover your cost in case that lawyer says you should sue and you lose)...
The list is pretty long. And it's universal, so companies don't even get the idea to sneak it in on the low level, where people can't afford to defend against it and fight it, and let it creep upwards.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Yes, but you get something in return for those taxes. It's not like your IRS uses it to buy golden toilets for the tax men...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
This, a billion times this.
At my level, I could probably make five or more times what I make over here in Europe in the US. Easily. Trouble is, I don't even need the money I make here, so why bother?
But here I get 25 days paid vacation plus sick days on top of that (no, they don't count as vacation days here), perfect healthcare, unemployment benefit should I for some reason get unemployed (not bloody likely unless I want to, but in that case it pays, too), retirement plan, worker's protection (law commands I MUST NOT work more than 50 hours a week and even that only for a very short time, with no more than 45 hours a week on average during the year. Oh, and no more than 10 hours a day).
Try to beat that, US.
You almost had me until the "perfect healthcare" part. Good one!
How can poor Mexicans and rich Americans both be low relative to their European counterparts?
When most of your people suffer from a mental handicap that tells them offing yourself is a nono because an imaginary being is going to torture you for it eternally, they'll readily suffer a few more years instead of facing the eternal damnation they were told is waiting for them.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
What sort of a pointless biased metric is "the median incline of the top ten percent"?
Half of all developers are below average.
-Styopa
Theres no proofs in science, nor the queen of the humanities, economics. However you can make pretty good inferences, and then look how they couple with the theory. And basically immigration actually creates employment, with iron-wall countries having some of the shittiest economies. Economies need to grow to create employment, and the easiest way to grow them is by generating more mouths to feed. And if those mouths can work in high paid jobs, then their job creation potential increases due to higher consumption.
The high wages compared to europe tell two things. 1) Europes tech industry is in the sink. 2) American tech workers appear to be in high demand. When theres high wages, the bargaining power of american workers improves, pushing the market forces in favor of suppliers (workers).
Its pretty damn obvious that H-1B is not hurting american workers at all.
Racism is all about percieved self interest (That percieved bit is the operate here). I dont see any reliable evidence that its anything other than xenophobia. The immigration debate seems fueled by nonsense and fear of foreigners more than anything rational.
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
25 paid vacation days is actually the low end.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Are there problems with the healthcare the NHS provides? -yes. If we factor the cost of the healthcare is it bloody great? -yes.
I will never forget seeing a program on US healthcare where a person who lost 3 fingers in an induustrial accident was tol the insurance will only cover X amount and he had to choose two of the three to save.
Hospital bills that leave people paying for decades and the above example do not happen here.
"perfect" is an exaggeration...although in certain areas in the UK you can get very good healthcare because your area has better doctors or hospitals...overall it's still good nation wide.
You know how much it costs to have the most common shoulder injury (clavicle fracture) sorted via surgery or what not? -nothing. No monthly insurance fees, no surgery fees, no outpatient fees, no disposable medical items fees. Nothing. Zip. Zilch.
People wanna get double pay for being constantly nickle and dimed out of their money for everything? -sure go live the American dream. Of coruse most of us that lived there know the "dream" can turn into a bloody nightmare.
Strongly Christian areas also under-report suicides, to avoid the stigma, so you'll get a lot of 'accidents'.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
So the proper course of action is to start development company in Europe to price undercut the US developers. Seems like a great business opportunity.
Many developers in the US get 5 weeks of paid vacation plus full healthcare. Don't believe all the sob stories.
Yes and no. You can't afford a car, but you can easily afford a live-in housekeeper and nanny for your kids.
Is it just me, or would you be scared to leave someone making barely more than slavery wages alone in your house with your child?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
What you saw was a fraud. There is nowhere in the U.S. where employers are not required to be fully insured for such accidents. Even if the person had to pay on their own, the normal process would be for the hospital to do everything possible to save the fingers. They would then write off any loss or apply to one of our many charities that help cover the costs in cases like this. One of the reasons healthcare is so expensive here for those that can pay is because we subsidize those who can't.
At six year's in I'm up to 35 days paid holiday a year.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Can you do this 100% remotely? If so, how?
We'll make great pets
[quote]A web developer in North America earns a median income of $73,600 USD per year, compared with the same developer in Western Europe whose median income is $35,400 USD[/quote]
Yes, but in parts of North America you have to choose between paying $3500/mo for a 2 bedroom apartment and living in high crime and bad school areas. You have to pay your own insurance, you get a fraction of the time off for holiday and family events, and mostly have to role your own retirement.
My salary is double what it was 15 years ago, yet I save almost the same and live no better than I did before.
A friend of mine moved to U.K. years ago (now a citizen) and he is often on holiday, has health coverage and access to so much more than I do... but I guess it's OK because in the dick/dollar measuring contest it initially looks like I am doing better.
It's frustrating to say the least.
If you've got something like the NHS, that doesn't stop you from seeking private care if you can pay. What it does stop you is from going bankrupt if you wind up with a condition that would cost far more than you've got.
Are you going to wait longer than you would if you can pay for it? Yes. Is that any worse than what happens if it's pay-only, and you can't pay?
Omitting the cost of living bit alone takes out so much of the context, even among parts the US. Compare the cost of living in Silicon Valley/San Francisco/etc to other places, and it's a huge change. You could take a 10% salary cut and still live far better, because you get things like a bigger house (or a house, period), a shorter commute, less traffic, etc.
That's one problem I have with articles like this - they act like salary is everything, and the only factor is the size of the digits.
I should be making at least $225,000 per year for my tech skills, but due to the abuses of H1-B visa systems by employers, I am scraping by on a pittance of $219,000. Why is this major issue of public policy not bubbling up to be a top priority?!
It depends a bit how things are calculated.and things differ per country.
I work 38 hours per week. Officially I work 37.That means I get 1 hours per week extra. That is 5 extra days per year. The company give soe extra days as well. 2 days if I was not sick in the previous year. 3 because I have worked a certain amount of time and then some extra because they want to. That brings me to 32 +2 offcial holidays that are on a weekend, so 35.
The official count would be 21. If that would be it (and some get only that) and I would work 50 hours per week, I would have at least 1 day per week or 50 days per year extra.
That said, I know people who work 4 days and are still full time. 9h30 or the like per day and they STILL have 45 days.
So it is much easier to find a balance between home and work. If people do overtime ALL the time that means one of these things (in reverse order of likelyness)
They are incompetent in their job
Their manager is incompetent at their job
There are issues at home, so he uses work to not go home
That last one is important, because if that takes to long, it will influence the quality of work delivered.
And as the GP explained, sick days do not count as holidays. You are still paid. How much depends on country as well on the period you are sick and if there is an extra insuarance that covers the money difference. Because after 1 month (where I work) you will get 80% and later it will go down further to 60% and then minimum wages.
Are there people that abuse the system? Yes, but not enough to punish the rest. People who get caught will lose everything and need to pay back everything, so the risk is pretty high compared to the gains. Obviously that would mean that they can fire you and you will not get any unemployment benefits. Also unwise to use them as a reference for a next job.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Once wanted to apply for a job in the US. There was an option to enter my race. (Optional, I know). That would not be allowed to be asked.
When you ask a woman if she is pregnant, she is allowed to lie and say no and you can't fire here when she comes working and anounces she was pregnant after all.
That said, I know of two women who where in that situation and are both still with the company several years later.
One even took on a new function where the company was well aware that she was pregnant with kid #3
As always, there will be people that abuse the system. This is very minimal and not enough to punish the rest. Luckily all the companies I have wored for where more or less correct. This because small companies tend to be more social as you know everybody and larger companies (50+) are obliged by law to have union representatives, so they are all unionzed.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
access to toys like fire arms and off road vehicles makes my quality of life decidedly better than my European counterpart.
Always good to hear the views of our teenage readers!
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
I am German and the lowest amount of paid vacation days I ever had was 28 (working for a Finnish company). In all other cases I got 30 paid vacation days. Official holidays that are on the weekend are considered tough luck in Germany, though.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
A lot of the things are paid for and available in other countries that you have to pay out of pocket in the USA. Medical stuff, for example, costs about half in Europe what it does in the USA.
It is just considered vanity, that's all.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Same for me in Denmark. When the official holidays around christmas lands on weekend, we call it an "employer" christmas and the other way around when they land on work days. :)
Once wanted to apply for a job in the US. There was an option to enter my race. (Optional, I know). That would not be allowed to be asked.
I'm not sure where you are, but in the UK it's fairly common to ask for that information on a separate form. It isn't allowed to be used in the hiring process (and there are penalties if you collect it and don't have a process in place to prevent it from being accessed by people involved with the hiring process), but is allowed to be used for statistical checks on the backgrounds of your applicants, so that you can spot things like '90% of applicants are in group X, but all hires are in group Y' and so on. I can't imagine a system not permitting this and somehow avoiding implicit bias being a huge part of the hiring process.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
"You deserve it!"
What a dumb punchline. No, you don't "deserve" it (success). Go pursue it, but no one owes it to you.
"AR"...that's what a pirate says. Get it? It's a joke!! Have another cup of coffee (or you've already had a few too many).
If ever a post deserved a +5 Troll, it's this one.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Where? You might get that with a tech company in the San Francisco area where they're trying to soften the blow of housing costs. In the rest of the country, you're working a corporate job with two weeks to start and a max of 4-5 after 10 years.
I think racism might be slightly too strong, but I will say there is definitely cultural clashes.
1) Rude and sexist behavior towards women, especially women managers. The story I heard was that with one Indian, the female manager finally broke him with relentless pager duty backed by 8 AM meetings and 2-3 unplanned office moves where his stuff was dumped in boxes and moved to progressively smaller cubes.
2) Appalling personal hygiene habits -- not bathing, not changing clothes. A friend seated next to an Indian filed a formal complaint with HR (he worked for a hospital system!) and the Indian had to basically meet with some kind of social worker to explain how hygiene worked in the US.
3) Clannish behavior among groups of Indians where they won't interact with American colleagues and setup conflicts
Mostly its Indians who don't assimilate, which is pretty much everyone's complaint about immigrants.
Hospitals are required to provide services to the level of "stabilization" only in the ER. That means they are not required to cure you all the way through to the end. If they do, that is there prerogative. You seem to have a misperception about what is required by law to be done. Also, do you have any sources that support your assertion that every of the 50 states would have insurance requirements upon the employer as you so assert? And beyond the 50 states, don't forget the protectorates and territories too...
What's not to like about Healthcare in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, the BeNeLux, Sweden...?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Yes, it's a pity our rich can't even afford a spare ivory back scratcher just 'cause some plebs want indoor plumbing.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Ahhh, so the guys in the Bible Belt aren't just too stupid to clean their guns safely...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I will never forget seeing a program on US healthcare where a person who lost 3 fingers in an induustrial accident was tol the insurance will only cover X amount and he had to choose two of the three to save.
What you saw was a fraud. There is nowhere in the U.S. where employers are not required to be fully insured for such accidents. Even if the person had to pay on their own, the normal process would be for the hospital to do everything possible to save the fingers. They would then write off any loss or apply to one of our many charities that help cover the costs in cases like this. One of the reasons healthcare is so expensive here for those that can pay is because we subsidize those who can't.
A little google shows that the event discussed, a person losing several fingers and being told by the hospital to choose which ones to reattach, seems to have come from the Michael Moore film "Sicko." The details listed by AC, however, are inaccurate (unless there was another incident I couldn't find on google.) It was a table saw, not an industrial accident, and the man wasn't insured"
https://www.theguardian.com/fi...
http://www.npr.org/templates/s... :
Let's talk about some of the medical cases Michael Moore describes in this film. At the very beginning, there is one about an American man who loses the ends of two of his fingers in an accident with an electric saw. He did not have insurance. The man must choose between having his middle finger reattached for $60,000, or his ring finger for $12,000. The man chooses his ring finger. How can a man be put into the position of making that choice?
JOANNE SILBERNER: [In the U.S.,] the hospital doesn't have to give him care unless it's lifesaving care, and his life wasn't threatened by the loss of two digits. So the hospital was within its rights to say, "We can reattach your two digits, but it's going to cost you." The irony is that if he had insurance, the insurance company would have paid far less than $12,000 or $60,000. The insurers can negotiate rates with hospitals that individuals can't.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Developer salaries in the US are high to make up for the fact that they don't provide health insurance or paid holidays? Been a developer in the US for 20 years and never heard of such a job. In fact, never heard of a job w/o paid maternity/paternity leave. At my last job a guy was out sick for almost a year and he was paid the whole time.
Self-interest is a more plausible explanation.
when you are talking about racism, self interest is usually pretty strong in the mix. It's basically people in power holding down people out of power. This is often done, in part, to keep the power. In this case, that power is high salary.
To give an example, Thomas Jefferson agreed that slavery was wrong and should be abolished. It was just that they couldn't maintain their life style without it, so it had to go on. Jefferson was also worried that he had a wolf by the ear, as in, if he let go he would likely die. He basically explained the whole thing as self interest / self preservation.
the claim you made that every employer required people to be fully covered is BS>
His example was an industrial accident. The employee's health care coverage, if they have any, wouldn't be involved, as this is covered by Workers' Compensation.
Speaking of chemo and the UK. I was on a year of chemo, that almost killed me three times. I found out the rules for administering it in the UK were lax enough I would have been guaranteed killed by the chemo in the UK had I been on it the full year.
But it sounds like they wouldn't have approved me for the full year, so I guess that explains why they are lax on blood tests for it since people don't get it. Yes, had I gotten cancer in the UK I would have been dead already, had they treated it or had they not treated it. In the US I was able to get "proper" treatment that worked.
Cancer survival rates in the UK are lower than those in the rest of Europe. But the rest of Europe also has socialized health care. Sweden's survival rate is the highest in the world. Should you attribute that to their socialized health care?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11891554/UK-cancer-survival-worst-in-western-Europe.html
And it's not clear whether the UK has lower cancer survival rates than the U.S. or not, because the UK has a national database, while the US doesn't. So it turns out there aren't actually good statistics for the US cancer deaths, because there's isn't any central agency they get reported to. On the other hand, every cancer death in the UK gets recorded.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
and people in lockup get more then someone who just walks into the ER.
https://www.theatlantic.com/he...
Here in the US, I get paid a competitive salary, have unlimited vacation, work about 35 hours a week, have on demand telecommuting, and free health care.
Sorry, foreigner, you can tell yourself you've got a good deal, but it sounds like unsubstantiated nationalism.
From TFS: [ For developers who want to move up in the world, VisionMobile suggests "Invest in your skills. Do difficult work. Improve your English. Look for opportunities internationally. Go for it. You deserve it!" ]
No, just... No.
This whole "you deserve it" bullshit is the root cause of the self-entitled asshole epidemic we see today. Stop it.
I tend to rant.
Yeah, but not everyone is lucky enough to be the president of the US.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Fortunately OD's don't count as suicides so I think our rate now should be better
love is just extroverted narcissism
"Discovers North America Pays Better "
Small wonder, other countries offer decent/very good healthcare, up to 80% of last job's pay in case of unemployment for 1 or 2 years, >35 vacation days, paid sick leave up to 6 months or years, maternity leave, paid new parent vacation for 6 months or more, up to 5/6th state-guaranteed pension rights, free daycare, insurance for disability nursing/shopping at home, ...
Nonsense. You cannot "prove" anything with statistics
WTF; who taught you that nonsense? You can "prove" *anything* with statistics. It's just a matter of presentation.
Along with skill level and software sector, developer salaries also vary widely by where they live in the world. A web developer in North America earns a median income of $73,600 USD per year, compared with the same developer in Western Europe whose median income is $35,400 USD. Web developers in South Asia earn $11,700 in South Asia while those in Eastern Europe earn $20,800 per year.
Yes, and that's meaningless if you aren't going to factor in cost of living.
You seem to think that insurance companies aren't going to make cost benefit analyses whenever they can get away with it. You think they like paying through the nose for something like cancer care? Now, a lot of the shenanigans that used to go on before such as kicking you off insurance for some claimed preexisting condition they suddenly discover, or sneaking in a lifetime cap on your coverage in the fine print, were banned under Obamacare, but don't go thinking they won't try to find other ways, or that they wouldn't go right back to it if the government wasn't stopping them.
I'm also not suggesting the NHS is perfect. What I will state is that Britons absolutely love the NHS, to a ridiculous degree, and even the conservatives there won't touch it. Even Margaret Thatcher, who never met a state-run anything she didn't want to privatize, explicitly left the NHS well alone. And as I said, if you want to pay for private insurance or private care, having the NHS in no way stops you if you think you can get something better. Yes, the US system offers better care, if you can pay for it.
Explain workers being laid off and having to train their H1B replacements then?
It is easy to see specific jobs that are filled by immigrants, but immigration can still bring a net gain of jobs across the entire economy. The displaced tech worker can find another job at a comparable salary. Meanwhile, the immigrant is setting up a household, buying furniture, groceries, etc., which generates jobs for construction workers, grocery store clerks, etc.
Historically, countries with liberal immigration policies have experienced lower unemployment rates than neighboring countries with more restrictive immigration policies. A recent example of this is when Poland joined the EU. Britain and Sweden allowed Polish workers to immigrate, while every other EU country restricted Polish immigrants over the objection of economists. Over the following years, Britain and Sweden had the EU's greatest improvement in unemployment rates.
The cost of living in North America is much higher than Europe.
As someone who has lived in both places let me assure you, sir, that you are profoundly mistaken.
Ah ... meant to have a question mark in there:
The cost of living in North America is much higher than Europe?
Considering the costs of products are often 30% higher in the UK and EU than the US, the fact that North America pays better is a big deal.
It sounds like living anywhere else is costing you more and you're getting paid less.
Yeah, because people usually don't count their employer's contribution to health insurance, US health insurance generally drags down compensation people report.
> Are there problems with the healthcare the NHS provides? -yes. If we factor the cost of the healthcare is it bloody great? -yes
This is the big problem with the usual socialist approach to healthcare. When your life is on the line, it's not the CHEAP option you want. It's the BEST option you want. Medicine is no place for the "cheap junk for less" mentality.
It's one of the most important things in society being practiced by our most educated and well trained people. Yet everyone thinks it's a place for a bargain and that doctors and nurses should be given the shaft.
Surgery is no place for the Walmart mentality.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
No.
Employers are required to have worker's compensation insurance. Worker's compensation includes a list of injuries and what compensation will be paid for them. The employer's liability is limited to what worker' compensation insurance pays, unless you can prove criminal negligence or the like in court, which is unlikely.
On the other hand, your personal health insurance, whether bought by you or provided by your company, might cover hospital bills - or they might not, depending on what they are required by law to cover (nothing if the repeal & don't replace crowd get their way). Usually they start off denying coverage and force you to complain before reluctantly paying some of the bills.
IANAL, YMMV, etc.
And worker's compensation generally pays less than you would get in court, but prevents you from suing. (note that there may be big variations by state.)
> You seem to think that insurance companies aren't going to make cost benefit analyses whenever they can get away with it.
Yet in practice American private insurers are more aggressive than public systems in both the US and Europe. For my particular condition the US public systems are at least 10 years behind the times in terms of standards of care.
I know two people killed by socialized medicine in the US and Canada because of substandard cancer treatment. Horror stories about cancer drugs and the NHS are bad enough that they show up in the popular media.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
> What's not to like about Healthcare in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, the BeNeLux, Sweden...?
Germany is a few decades behind the times in orthopedics and seem to be generally stingy. Sweden does poorly with rare conditions.
Any ferret face can set a bone. That's not the stuff you want to hang your hat on.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
In Britain all public holidays fall on weekdays, as a matter of design. If you have, say, Christmas Day falling on a Sunday, then the Boxing Day Monday will be a public holiday, and the Tuesday will be a public holiday in compensation for the Sunday.
All Brits (on a full-time contract at least) are entitled to the full 25 days holiday plus the 9 annual public holidays.
As a white, male worker in the US, I call bullshit. I hate to admit it, but in many, possibly most, cases, being white and male provides an advantage in the workplace, even accounting for Affirmative Action initiatives.
From my experience, a lot of the resumes you see have been doctored by the recruitment agency/company in India. One team member went to such and such university for a summer class, the whole team suddenly graduated "magna cum laude" from such and such university. One team member went to a RedHat event, the entire team is RHCE/RHCA.
To be honest, that problem exists to some extent with all recruitment/sourcing companies in the world. I once accidentally received my own resume doctored by a recruitment company as it had landed on a colleague's desk. I had met the recruiter for a specific position and didn't give them the authorization to send my resume to other clients. They were trying to sell me for a pure dev role for less money than I was actually making at the time. It took me a few minutes to even acknowledge it was my resume as they had inserted a ton of bullshit in my previous jobs.
But Healthcare is free...
Sounds like someone doesn't know what taxes are.
This survey proves that American workers aren't being harmed by workers with H-1B visas.
Err, maybe, maybe not. I know of a couple of cases were very talented teams have been eliminated completely by offshoring. So, in a way, they were "harmed" for something that is borderline illegal (replacing existing American positions with offshored and H1B replacements.)
OTH, they weren't really "harmed". They got their severance packages, and because they had their shit together, they landed jobs somewhere else.
I'd say there is H1B abuse. But I also say there is a bigger problem: there is a lot of IT dead weight in America.
As an US citizen, I don't care if a person is a US worker or a H1B worker. I care if said person is worth a damn as a worker or dead weight.
In America, with all its wealth, opportunities and educational resources, there is no reason to be dead weight in such a versatile, well-remunerated industry such as IT/software.
What you saw was a fraud. There is nowhere in the U.S. where employers are not required to be fully insured for such accidents. Even if the person had to pay on their own, the normal process would be for the hospital to do everything possible to save the fingers. They would then write off any loss or apply to one of our many charities that help cover the costs in cases like this. One of the reasons healthcare is so expensive here for those that can pay is because we subsidize those who can't.
Hehehe, you are a funny guy.
What you saw was a fraud. There is nowhere in the U.S. where employers are not required to be fully insured for such accidents. Even if the person had to pay on their own, the normal process would be for the hospital to do everything possible to save the fingers. They would then write off any loss or apply to one of our many charities that help cover the costs in cases like this. One of the reasons healthcare is so expensive here for those that can pay is because we subsidize those who can't.
Like in Japan or Germany or all the other dozen 1st world examples that I can think of. That is not the reason why healthcare is so expensive. You are making a conscious choice to believe and propagate a lie.
> "indo-chimps,"
Never heard that term, and I've been a programmer for over 33 years.
The reason we object to having go work with incompetent people that are poorly educated is because they create more work for us.
I agree with this partially. I say partially because:
1. Not all H1B are incompetent, and in fact, many are actually good and pleasant to work with. I've been in this IT/software industry rodeo for 23 years (not as long as you, but still, long enough), and I know that this is true.
2. We have a lot of "native" incompetent dead weight among us.
I want to see less H1B abuse and make sure we do not get incompetent people in. But at the same time, I want to see the competent ones to come in and kick our native dead weight out.
I have no compassion for dead weight, native or foreign. I'm not one to prevent a foreign born person to seek new opportunity just to protect dead weight.
Yes and no. You can't afford a car, but you can easily afford a live-in housekeeper and nanny for your kids.
Is it just me, or would you be scared to leave someone making barely more than slavery wages alone in your house with your child?
It's not slave wages for them, and you are going to find out people are, for the most part, decent and whom can be trusted to do this type of job.
Stop spouting that kind of crap. Get out of wherever you are and travel the world. Look around. Look abroad and learn. You are going to find a lot of your notions about other countries to be nothing but an assortment of unsubstantiated, superficial bundles of bullshit.
Luckily all the companies I have wored for where more or less correct.
You obviously made a spelling error here, but I can't figure out if you meant to type "worked" or "whored".
AR?!?
Clearly, Accounts Receivable is a harder problem than I thought it was...
Ah, our Euroepan curse of having roads and railways everywhere...
Ezekiel 23:20
Is it just me, or would you be scared to leave someone making barely more than slavery wages alone in your house with your child?
I never lived in India, but I did live in China for several years. We had a live-in housekeeper, and she was paid 2500 RMB or about $300 USD per month. She also ate with our family for free and had a free room to live in. That was worth at least another $100 per month. So she had an annual income equivalent to about $4800 USD. This was back when the median annual income in Shanghai was about $4200 USD.
I never gave a second thought to leaving my kids with her. She was like a member of our family. My kids are grown now, and in college, but they still stay in touch with her via WeChat.
There is a difference?
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
He's in a mandatory group insurance plan with a really big group. The savings are massive, and premiums are collected more by ability to pay. What's really important here is that, if he's flat broke and has a medical problem, he gets treatment. In the US, if flat broke, he'd have to go to an emergency room for an emergency and otherwise do without, and the emergency room will not do any long-term necessary treatment and will likely leave him with massive bills to face if he ever gets a decent income again.
Security is valuable.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Choose the cities with the highest software engineering salaries and you will find the highest cost of living. Include education, healthcare, insurance and housing. And don't forget commuting costs.
Having been where I am for over seven years, I get 5 weeks of PTO, and nearly free good-quality personal health insurance. Note that "PTO": in the last year I've had some medical issues that forced me to take off a significant amount of time, which means I effectively get less vacation time.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
At one time (and this might be true now), life insurance didn't tend to pay out for suicide, so there was a real incentive to find some way to call a self-inflicted death an accident. I don't know what the incentives might be elsewhere.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Try to beat that, US.
Why? I'm happy. Happy pretty much every day. Some days just hovering in the neighborhood of "content", some suffused with a cheerful glow; but happy to some extent, anyway.
Here are some things that are unlikely to make me happier: More days of vacation; I never use mine up anyway. More sick days; I hardly ever use any of those. "Worker's protection", the very idea of which makes my skin crawl - I'll do what I want, when I want, thanks anyway.
"Perfect healthcare" sounds ominous. Perhaps you don't know what the word "perfect" means?
I have a retirement plan. Yes, unemployment coverage in the US is wildly insufficient, but I wouldn't claim the US is ideal. Hell, I won't claim it's better than anywhere else, for me and certainly not for other people. But it's just fine for me.
I don't understand this weird dick-waving "try to beat that" crap. Are you happy? Great! That doesn't mean other people can't be unless they have what you have.
Really? You can just do that?
I guess that lamenting about H-1Bs isn't that close to reality then, is it?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
But that's the stuff that 9 out of 10 times happens.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.