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'Extreme Vetting' Would Require Visitors To US To Share Contacts, Passwords (theguardian.com)
According to the Wall Street Journal, the Trump administration is considering whether or not to deploy "extreme vetting" practices at airports around the world, which could force tourists from Britain and other countries visiting the U.S. to reveal their mobile phone contacts, social media passwords and financial data. "Travelers who want to enter the U.S. could also face questioning over their ideology, as Washington moves away from a default position of allowing people in to a more skeptical approach to visitors," reports The Guardian. From the report: Trump made the "extreme vetting" of foreign nationals to combat terrorism a major theme of his presidential election campaign. But his executive order imposing a travel ban on several Muslim-majority countries has twice been blocked in court. Media reports suggest it has already hurt the tourism industry. The changes might include visitors from the 38 countries -- the UK, France, Australia and Japan among them -- that participate in the visa waiver program, which requires adherence to strict U.S. standards in data sharing, passport control and other factors, one senior official told the Journal. This could require people to hand over their phones so officials can study their stored contacts and possibly other information. The aim is to "figure out who you are communicating with," a senior Department of Homeland Security official was quoted as saying. "What you can get on the average person's phone can be invaluable." A second change would ask applicants for their social media handles and passwords, so that officials could see information posted privately in addition to public posts, the Journal said. The Journal report said the DHS official working on the review said questions under consideration included whether visa applicants believe in so-called honor killings, how they view the treatment of women in society, whether they value the "sanctity of human life" and who they view as a legitimate target in a military operation.
The USA has lost its damn mind.
People will just stop coming to the U.S., or doing business there. Problem solved.
Sharing your password is against the ToS of every single social media platform out there, including but not limited to Facebook, Twitter, every forum ever, etc. Share your password to your account when you go to the US and kiss that account goodbye.
And that list? Yes, I believe there are honor killings (DING). I believe women need more power in society (DING from any anti-feminist) or I believe genders are not equal because each gender has strengths and weaknesses different from each other (DING from a lot of people). I do not value the "sanctity of human life" in that I believe assisted suicide, under a lot of scrutiny and supervision, should be legal - we have mortally sick pets put down to spare them the suffering, but grandma HAS to be kept alive no matter what! I also believe abortion should not be illegal, so that's TWO dings in one question.
Just ... what are they expecting with this? HONESTY? Or a well-rehearsed regurgitation of the correct answers?
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
We can't even get Asshole M'Gunt to share his tax returns. Fuck that guy.
The United States has done off the deep end. I will never be visiting such a douche bag country that would pull this shit. If the States wants less "Terrorists" then stop pissing every one off. Stop stealing from every one and killing innocent people.
No in the past the USA would just refuse to extradite people to face terrorist charges to European countries. I know for certain this applied to both the UK and France, and included terrorists who where Muslim.
Heck the USA would even allow terrorist organizations to fund raise in the USA!!! When it comes to terrorists the USA can just fuck right off.
Far more people have died in the UK from terrorists that the USA harboured and allowed to fund raise than have from any Islamist's terrorists, but don't let facts get in the way of your bigoted viewpoint.
"Land of the free, home of the BRAVE"? NOT! Brave people don't fear their world, and free people don't ask others to give up their freedom...
Right, no more trrists for 'Murica. And by trrists, of course I mean tourists. So many nicer places to visit anyway!
Ezekiel 23:20
Tourism is a $1.5 trillion industry in the US. I don't know what exactly the split is between domestic and foreign but foreign is definitely a significant chunk (one site claimed $21 billion from foreign tourists in April 2016) and if you're worried about trade deficits then that chunk is especially important.
There are already concerns that foreign tourism revenue is starting to dry up after Trump's election and the (attempted) Muslim bans. If it's actually put into effect this "extreme vetting" will only accelerate that process.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Ah yes, but the IRA were good clean Christian terrorists, so it was totally okay to allow them to enter the US to evade arrest and raise money for the "struggle" (which amounted as often as not to blowing up informants and random people for effect).
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I think that's exactly what they want.. remember.. to a paranoid's mindset.. anyone that is NOT under 24 hour watch with constant blood tests and brain drains is a risk.
But they always forget, these actions do nothing but CREATE NEW enemies, give strength to the existing ones.. and alienate your allies.. But as I said, that's exactly what they want because in that world, they direct control.
God made the Idiot for practice, and then He made the School Board -- Mark Twain Look for http://Thebar.steelbeachca
More and more of my (Canadian) friends and family have made the decision to cancel discretionary trips to and through the USA in recent months.
Most people I know who are are staying away aren't doing it because of Trump's EOs or new rules that are coming. The majority are caucasian Canadian citizens, so they'd breeze right in anyway.
It's more that many Canadians that I've talked to feel that discretionary travel to the US is tacit support for Trump and his Republicans. We realize it's a drop in the ocean, but it's the only tool we have.
My wife and her friends recently cancelled a 'girl's weekend' in Seattle. I have a cousin who recently made the decision to go to Cuba in May instead of the Hawaii trip she had planned. Other friends who cancelled a Disney trip. Still others who cancelled San Diego and went to Mexico.
I also know of several people here in Vancouver who booked trips to points south and east and specifically avoided (cheaper) US carriers so they could avoid transiting the USA. They instead transited YYZ, YUL and MEX.
None of these people are radical eco-hippie-lefties. Just average Canadians who have made the decision not the travel to or through the USA.
I know, I know, anecdotal, we don't need you socialist commie Canadians anyway, Trump rules, America's great, don't let the door hit us on the way out, blah blah blah, but nevertheless that's tens of thousands of dollars deflected away from the USA right there in my little sphere, within the last month or two.
The cost to personal liberty, the flagrant unconstitutionality, and the chilling effect on US international relations and tourism aside, this is ALSO a bad idea because it will have zero effect on the real bad guys.
If you are a bad guy, why would you bring a phone loaded with contacts? Why would you provide a real, rather than a fake social media account? For a real bad guy, it is trivially easy to circumvent this new check. For the rest of us, it's a massive inconvenience, invasion of privacy, and an almost certain invitation to both systematic abuse and abuse by bad-apple agents.
(BTW, topic drift... I was quite surprised to see financial data disclosure requirements described as "new". Unlike the phone search and social media stuff, the financial data part is _not_ new. It's been a requirement for certain visa applicants for at least 40 years. It doesn't currently happen at the border, but rather at visa application time. Perhaps the reason it's listed as being new is because it now includes visa-waiver-program countries too?)
Yes. That's kind of the point.
You only have to check the ones with brown skin or funny names, so it should be easy-peasy...
Extreme vetting for the win!
Kneel Before Christ!
One way or another Trump will either resign or be removed from office quickly. In the mean time we need to stop all of his executive orders, budgets and laws from being passed as well as prepare methods for quick removal of any that manage to get through the obstruction that we will impose at every turn. One difficult issue will be whether to put Trump on trial for his numerous crimes that are now being exposed. These are not the fantasy crimes such as were claimed against Obama and Clinton but real, hard core crimes that may well include treason. The economic crimes alone are enough to put him in prison for life.
How will this stop anyone besides the absolute dumbest terrorists? Won't they just start lying?
Almost anyone can lie convincingly given enough practice. Look at Congress.
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According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
None of the terrorists had come from those countries. Calling those judges SJW diminishes the power of the insult. It's like calling Trump a nazi. It's soon (already?) going to only mean "people we don't agree with politically." You're also not responding to the real argument for why they issued injunctions.
Reality is a slackware box running on a 386 tucked away in god's sock drawer.
I wouldn't expect judges to be Social Justice Warriors. Surely that's more of a position for Social Justice Paladins. Social Justice Warriors would be more likely in the military, or at least the police.
Social Justice Clerics of course would be in the church. Jesuits perhaps.
Social Justice Mages... probably researchers, working on renewable energy and the like.
Social Justice Bards... I'd imagine that there's not enough musical work for them, but they'd probably feel at home in the media.
Social Justice Rogues.. out on protests.
Social Justice Barbariasn... hmm... fighting internet trolls.
Social Justice Druids... out on some hippie commune.
Social Justice Sorcerers.... probably in the maker community.
Social Justice Rangers... forestry service?
Social Justice Warlocks... members of Anonymous maybe?
Social Justice Monks... actually, yeah, literal monks. Buddhist, not Christian.
Kneel Before Christ!
Given the high number of Murders/Prison population in the USA compared to other 1st world countries it would make just as much sense to bar US citizens from travelling to those countries.
But what is happening is that Tourists are now avoiding the USA and thats going to cost tens of thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in lost income.
Feel free to start a trade war, the US is only 4% of the worlds population and 20% of the worlds GDP.
Asia is where all the real growth is, China is the biggest economy and growing, US firms could see themselves locked out of the Asian market. "Friends" of the USA have seen how Trump treats them, countries if they have any sense will be planning on what to do if the US is no longer there as a trading partner. Sure its going to hurt for a wee while, but everyone will recover. It will open opportunities for the likes of Airbus and Boeing gets sidelined, it will open up opportunities for EU companies to replace Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, HP, etc etc etc etc etc.
Peak USA was the 1960/1970s , it has been slowly slipping since then. Trump will simply increase the rate of fall.
So keep being scared, Keep being paranoid, Build your walls, alienate the rest of the world, the world will learn to get on just fine without the USA. We can go back to sane copyright laws, sane patent laws, sane gun laws , etc etc etc etc
Canada offers a decent alternative "Americanized tourist" experience.
Yup. I especially love Saskatchewan Disney...
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Yep, our family has written off the USA as a place to visit (I have been about 6 times, family twice)
.
We are also encouraged at work not to go the Europe via the USA, or attend conferences/training in the USA, risks are too high.
Dropping tourist numbers is already removing billions from the US economy, and the fall is only going to accelerate
So just remember as you shout USA first, 96% of the worlds population and 80% of the worlds GDP is saying USA last.
The world has become a lost more accessible, countries have modernised , tourism is easier and cheaper than ever before, there are more flights to more destinations than ever before, so choosing "not the USA" is no longer a problem, people are missing out on less and less each year.
So ... you don't want our money?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
But they were the good kind of terrorist, the kind that buys weapons in the Us and only blows shit up outside the US.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Be glad they took that bullshit down. What do you think this would have accomplished, except piss off some people? Do you really believe someone hellbent on blowing shit up can't first move to a different country before flying to the US? For real?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And so they should.
The Murder rate in the USA is huge compared to the UK (and Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc etc etc)
The prison population in the USA is huge compared to the UK (and Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc etc etc)
The "facts" prove citizens from the USA pose a significant increase in risk
Well you are certainly fucking up the global elites there big boy. I don't think Disney world Florida will be doing much business in future when the tourists can't get there anymore. Perhaps we should be vetting Americans - so many of them seem to be alt-right gun nuts it is hard to tell whether they are safe. Realistically the terrorists have won, a nationalist president has gone nuclear over fucking over foreigners for votes. The free world has started to look like that dystopian police state future that American movies have been previewing for years. Call yourselves the leaders of the free world, ha, more like an evil empire. Fortunately there is plenty going on in the rest of the world, this being the Far Eastern century for a start.
Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
Not quite. Yes, what happened under the Obama administration involved CBP and social media, but it was significantly different.
Last July the Obama administration proposed a voluntary disclosure of social media profile information for travelers seeking a visa waiver through the ESTA system (Electronic System for Travel Authorization). It did not include password or contact information, but was controversial nonetheless. It sent into effect in December.[
The Trump administration is proposing significant changes to that program, requiring more information (passwords and contacts) and making it compulsory.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Because its better than where they were.
Perhaps you want to compare those figure to the millions who have recently ended up in Europe
They would prefer to been at home, but home is full of war, death and destruction.
We have a lot of Americans who have taken up citizenship in New Zealand, if its so good there why did they leave ?
Now YOU dont care, but the people whose job depends on tourists do, tour guides do, hotels do, airlines do, tourist attractions do.
Its not OUR attitude, its the US attitude that making the difference, and tourists are now voting with their wallets.
I was dismayed the last time I visited the United States, when after the indignity of being treated like a criminal by having my fingerprints taken for the first time, the border official said to me, "Now that wasn't such a big deal was it". Border officials have absolute power. Being on business, I was in no position to offer an alternative opinion and run the risk of being sent home.
Your tourism industry will be suffering. I stopped travelling for pleasure to the US long ago. If I should visit Canada for a holiday you can be sure I will travel via Auckland or Asia and not LA.
Fuck you guys, I'm tired of your shit.
With an attitude like that you wonder why we don't want you here. Just stay home. We don't care.
Your choice of words betrays your belief that the US is still the center of the universe. It is less and less so, and that's a shame.
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
We have people literally dying to come across our borders to get here. If the US is THAT bad, why are they coming?
You are mixing apples and oranges. The people dying to get to the US are dirt poor folk from third world countries. The US happens to be an advanced, rich, first-world country next door. You are the closest rich place. Thus they come to you. If Mexico shared a border with Canada, and not the US, Mexicans would try to illegally cross into Canada. If they shared a border with Germany, they'd try to cross over into Germany. Why aren't there a lot of Syrian asylum seekers in the US? They think the US is crap and don't want to come there? Or is it maybe because they are tens of thousands of kilometres away from the nearest US border? There do happen to be millions of them in Turkey though....I guess Turkey being next door to Syria has something to do with it.
What GP is trying to tell you is that "extreme vetting" and the like will do little to discourage desperate illegals (one, they are desperate, two, they are already trying to cross the border without bothering with such things as visas and passports and ETAs) but will do much to annoy legitimate travellers from rich countries, coming temporarily to spend money in the US. You will soon see that yes, you indeed care (as a nation, as an economy), because you will be losing out. On tourism dollars first, and then on business opportunities and investment after that. Treat every passenger as a potential terrorist and piss them off by subjecting them to ridiculous procedures, and guess what, you'll end up pissing off the 99,999...99% of passengers that aren't terrorists. Why would I want to go to a place where I might have my phone searched at the border? Why would I want to be submitted to the humiliation of explaining what every photo in my phone is about to some stranger trained to see a potential deadly threat in every person he comes across? So I can see the Grand Canyon? I can look at pictures of the canyon instead. Better that than some inane border guard looking over all my personal pictures.
Foreign tourists spent $216B in America last year, making tourism one of our biggest "exports". This reduces our trade deficit and provides jobs for millions of Americans, maybe even some ex-coalminers. Trump should be doing everything possible to encourage more people to come here, rather than pushing them away. Sad.
So you never heard of the IRA, ETA, RAF? Terrorism isn't new to Europe.
Also, I think blaming Islam as a whole even for the Islamic terrorism is mischaracterizing the problem. If you read about the background of the terrorists, many of them are people who were violent for a long time and turned to fundamentalism as short as 1 or 2 years before they did their attack. So they're not deeply religious Muslims becoming violent, they're angry people given a cause by religious extremists.
Bzzt. Access denied. Wait over there for the next plane home - at your expense.
216 billion is not chump change.
America has become an authoritarian shit hole, land of the free and home of the brave no more.
Land of the opressed home of the coward is far more apt for the stinking shithole the US has become.
I live in America and the people who scare me the most are the batshit crazy poor, under-educated Evangelical Christian white trash.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Yep you are hundreds to times more likely to be murdered by a family member, work college, neighbour , or friend than you are to be involved in a terrorist act.
The "Scareware" terrorism has nothing to do about keeping Americans safe, it is all about removing right and freedoms.
Scared people are only too happy for someone else to make the decisions for them if they think it will "keep them safe".
Over the last 20 years I think more people have been killed by vending machines falling on them than by terrorists
Before the West imported large numbers of Muslims, we did not have . . . somewhere between 6 and 12% of the terrorism we get in the West today.
I fixed that so the viewers at home could see the truth rather than a complete fabrication with no basis in reality. But by all means, don't let facts and data get in the way of a good old fashioned islamophobic blame-the-brown-people polemic.
Nothing posted to
We (my family) won't be back.
You hear about businesses talking about "transactional friction", i.e. the difficulties in doing a transaction, the lower it is the more it gets used.
Well the "friction" for visiting the USA is simply too high, the risks for tourists too high, the risk of loosing phones and laptop too high. Where as the friction for other countries is much lower.
Our next "big trip" (they usually are 4-8 weeks) will be into Asia in a couple of years, then back to Europe (via Asia) a few years after that, then a cruise around Australia. The USA has been removed from consideration, its too hard.
... should rule the day.
All countries should respond in kind to any vetting and any banning by the USA.
I'm an American and not particularly proud of it.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
FTS: "... questions under consideration included... how (visa applicants) view the treatment of women in society".
Methinks VP Pence would fail that test miserably. His anti-abortion stance favours a law that would even prevent even rape victims from aborting the fetuses fathered by their rapists. He made a (thankfully unsuccessful) attempt to enact legislation forcing women to pay for funerals for the blood and tissue ejected when they miscarry. Now that's what I call a positive and respectful attitude towards women in society!
As for the US government becoming an even creepier Peeping Tom when it comes to probing visitors' privacy, I no longer care. I was already saying "No!" when it came to visiting the States, and now I'm saying "Hell no!", so this doesn't represent a very big change. I don't know why Trump is wasting the money that US taxpayers, (not Mexico), will pay to build his damned wall. He's already erecting a pretty effective virtual wall - lots of people around the world are staying away because of the antics of the knuckle-dragging thug that runs the place. If he keeps it up, even the most desperate Mexicans may feel safer with the drug lords, corruption, and abject poverty in their native country than they would in the land of der Trumpenfuhrer.
'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
Of course you're correct about all that. But let me add some perspective to the America-firsters position, because it is, in its horrible way, at least partly consistent.
The majority of tourism dollars and employment go to the coastal, well-to-do, cosmopolitan, educated, liberal cities. The fact that alt-right anti-visitor policies are going to cripple the tourism industry isn't a bug to our regressive political thinkers; it's a feature. The fact that the coastal cities, the educated people, the cosmopolitan culture, the LBGTQ-friendly places, the colleges that receive foreign students, will be in a shambles is expressly among the things that they desire. Arguing that fact will not dissuade them; it will actually reinforce how wonderful these policies are.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Do some research, and look up the meaning of Sectarian Violence. The Troubles were catholic vs protestant at the base line.The IRA were nationalistic in that they wanted a Catholic Republic.
I doubt, that justifies their actions, but it does make them distinctly different.
It makes them distinctly similar. A bunch of murdering bastards.
Yeah, it's totally a coincidence that the IRA were all Catholics. Nothing to do with religion whatsoever...
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
It seems having a Breitbart account should be a reason not to let people into the U.S., if you want to avoid to import terrorism.
"borrowed from us in the first place"
Like you, we all borrow from China now.
As a European I agree with this with one exception: it doesn't necessarily mean said companies will be 'replaced' by others. Multinational companies can re-locate themselves just as people can. If a trade war is started and Google & Co do the math and figure staying in the US will hurt their bottom line too much they'll move out and become European for example.
This is one of the main reasons why trade wars are stupid and counter--productive in this day and age. Capital and corporations can move across borders rapidly, and they will do so the moment said trade war will start hurting them too much. Trumpsters seem to be under the illusion there's some magical property making american companies forever american. Right now they are because currently the american stock market and environment is still the best place to do business from but if that changes these guys are not going to stay because they're patriots or some such nonsense. They care about money and making it, not the color of the flag waving atop their headquarter.
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
That would likely backfire. A huge proportion of people in the US have never been outside their country's borders. This is great for the government because they have no basis for comparison other than scare stories from the media, which is largely owned by the same people that own the politicians. Reducing the number of US citizens who see other countries is unlikely to make the US a better neighbour.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
The US is resembling Russia more and more. Once a superpower, now going gradually downhill socially and politically. Whenever anyone points this out they get huffy and isolate themselves from anyone who criticizes them in any way. Which only further contributes to their problems.
Well when Dept of Homeland Security Secretary says something, it's kind of unfair to claim a paper is making something up.
https://homeland.house.gov/hea...
http://www.npr.org/templates/t...
But hey, I get it, media bashing, it's the new cool.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Many people in the US were raised in a time where we *were* the center of the universe. The propaganda said that was because of how great our society was. In reality, the US was the center of the universe, because we were the only country that could take on the Soviet Union's quest for world domination. That was basically a war of attrition and the Soviets bankrupted themselves first. It wasn't a victory when the Soviet Union collapsed but rather a time of fear since they were a nuclear armed state. Now the US is declining and we're also a nuclear armed state. Emotionally, though, people have been so indoctrinated that they can't adjust to the new reality very well. Similar to the Soviet decline, the US has an amazing and scary military capacity which is why the world even cares at all.
And of course you'll insist that the Gunpowder Plotters were also just coincidentally Catholic.
I love watching the extent to which people trying to make Islam into some sort of special case will partake of special pleading to try to let Christians of similar deeds off the hook.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Funny how 'the special relationship' means the UK provides troops for US military adventures, but we have to have a visa to come to US, whereas you don't need one to come here. I think for a lot of UK tourists this will be the deal breaker. I won't be submitting to personal questions about my politics etc, even if I am a white, female 70 year old.
In technical terms, the Church of England has been in existence for well over a thousand years. If you're talking about the Church becoming Protestant, it was already beginning to happen in Henry VIII's time, and it was his son, Edward VI, who formally made it a Protestant church. Mary I tried to temporarily reverse it, but Elizabeth I fixed the CofE as a Protestant institution, with a Catholic-lite variant for those that dug that long-winded mass.
And even that era produced its own terrorists; Guy Fawkes and his gang of Catholic rebels who nearly succeeded in blowing Parliament up, and with that act the Catholics in England became the Muslims of the 17th century; distrusted, viewed as would-be traitors of dubious loyalty, with their loyalty towards Rome, practices of an alien faith, and it wasn't until the 19th century that Catholics were politically normalized again (and even then there were some rancor in some quarters about Catholic Emancipation).
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Ok, so you surrender the previous topic and wish to change to the new one? Fine, I accept.
England created its own "Church of England" to break away from Rome. Though ostensibly it involved religion, it was a purely political move. Catholics, who continued to divide their loyalty between their nation and the Pope (who was often directly controlled by France), were justifiably suspected. (In modern terms, the conflict was between the Euro-centrics and Euro-sceptics — and so it remains today, even if terrorism is no longer used by either side.)
For another example, consider today's Russian-Ukrainian war — Russia is using the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate as a bulwark against Ukraine, which tries to resist with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Kyivan Patriarchate. There are no differences in religious doctrine — none whatsoever. The sole difference is that of loyalty... Though it involves religions, the conflict is not religious in the slightest.
It is a special case. Whereas Christianity "renders Cæsar's to Cæsar", Islam prescribes — in detail — how the country (the world!) ought to be governed: by Sharia, a Theocracy. You can not be a good Muslim and not fight for the establishment of it — on this Earth...
This makes Islam not purely a religion, but also a political movement/ideology. A movement, which — like Communism, for example — should be resisted and indeed attacked.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.