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If Humble People Make the Best Leaders, Why Do We Fall for Charismatic Narcissists? (hbr.org)

Numerous studies and real-life examples show humble, unassuming people as leaders improve the performance of a company in the long run. The humity, exuded by these leaders, can be contagious. Yet, instead of following the lead of these unsung heroes, an article on Harvard Business Review argues, we appear hardwired to search for people who exude charisma. The article looks into why such is the case: One study suggests that despite being perceived as arrogant, narcissistic individuals radiate "an image of a prototypically effective leader." Narcissistic leaders know how to draw attention toward themselves. They enjoy the visibility. It takes time for people to see that these early signals of competence are not later realized, and that a leader's narcissism reduces the exchange of information among team members and often negatively affects group performance. It's not that charismatic and narcissistic people can't ever make good leaders. In some circumstances, they can. For example, one study found that narcissistic CEOs "favor bold actions that attract attention, resulting in big wins or big losses." A narcissistic leader thus can represent a high-risk, high-reward proposition.

339 comments

  1. Simple math... by prince+hal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because we're idiots.

    1. Re:Simple math... by edx93 · · Score: 1

      We're actually smart, if not faulty. Problem is that charisma is a good way to charm people into being disposed to believing you (look at Jonestown), narcisism means that they will use if to their advantage. There's a good book on this: Influence: the psychology of persuasion. It liists quite well known psychological "faults" of the human mind and how it can easily be exploited (and how to avoid it in the first place).

    2. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's more likely that the "simple math" is that people who clustered around charismatic narcissists produced, on average, more fit offspring.

      Perhaps it was the clustering and not the leader that produced the effect, but even if so it appears they became linked along the way.

    3. Re:Simple math... by Baron_Yam · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because we're primates that evolved living in small family groups, and our social instincts developed before we were intelligent enough to understand their shortcomings.

      And now that we do have these relatively fantastic brains... most people don't bother to try.

    4. Re:Simple math... by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      It's more likely that the "simple math" is that people who clustered around charismatic narcissists produced, on average, more fit^W offspring.

      FTFY.

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    5. Re:Simple math... by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 2

      A person can be smart; people (in the most inclusive sense of the word) can be very, very dumb.
      $PEOPLE can be fairly easily hacked; appeal in the right way to their emotions or instincts, and you effectively bypass their higher reasoning capabilities and have them act entirely on hardwired instincts alone. For instance, people in a sufficient level of distress (whether caused by real circumstances, or perceived circumstances), presented with a 'savior', will put themselves entirely in that persons' hands.

    6. Re:Simple math... by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nah, we're stupid.

      Millions of people play the lottery, thinking "somebody has to win!" while completely ignoring the fact that the lottery companies make huge profits.

      Ditto casinos: If the wallpaper is gold, there's free drinks and the croupiers are earning wages then you think you're going to win some money in that room? Really....?

      All a politician has to do is sell a bigger dream than the other politicians. There's enough stupid around that they'll eventually win.

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    7. Re:Simple math... by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      I guess it depends on your standards. If your standards are low enough, then all of humanity is really smart.

    8. Re:Simple math... by wizkid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's some truth to this. But on this last election cycle, Bernie is probably pretty close to a the humble side, not the wacko side of the scale. If the dem's handn't shot him down and let him win. I don't think we'd have trump in the big house.

      There are a very large number of people out there that don't want a bunch of gangsters like the clintons in office.

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    9. Re:Simple math... by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is how I read it as well. A lot of neurological and psychological machinery evolved in a considerably different habitat than most humans now live. We're wired to be hunter-gatherers; small and generally fairly mobile groups where leaders were far closer to those that they lead. If you look at other primates, and in particular our closest relatives the Great Apes, you can see how a combination of physical strength and bravado are usually what make for an alpha male; basically the tribal leader. But in those relatively small groups, challenges to the leadership are relatively frequent, so that a shit leader isn't going to last very long at all.

      Civilization has rewritten the rules, in no small part because what's good for a tribal hunter-gatherer society like our ancestors or like chimpanzees, just doesn't scale up at all. But our every instinct, written over millions of years of hunter-gatherer society, remains attracted to charisma (and physical appearance as well). We really are still just hairless apes; big brains, but a lot of social instinct that gets in the way, and it's going to take a lot longer than the mere 10,000 years or so that we've been developing urban civilization to evolve a different psychological toolkit.

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    10. Re:Simple math... by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      Yep. The real problem is that at the end of the day we're only presented with gangsters and conmen to vote for.

      Of the 300+ million people in the USA, how did the vote come down to those two?

      (Simple: It's the people in suits who decide who we get to vote for)

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    11. Re:Simple math... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Because we're idiots.

      No we're not, we're just ignorant. The charismatic narcissists tell a good story, they tell us they can fix it, they tell us they understand what's wrong, they relate well to us to the point we think they also see what we see and they can fix it. That's politics, but these same people succeed in business to for the same reason, except they merely need to swindle a considerably smaller group of people.

      The guy who tells the truth, that we have bad problems and they may not be entirely fixable, or that the middle class must necessarily bear the lions share of the tax burden, or that many of our perceived problems are more about not making the huge profits from WWII reparations that our parents benefitted from, and instead having huge debt from various police actions since then which we shouldered the costs for, that while there is a better way to live our country is largely ruled by a small group of wealthy self-interested pricks that we cannot effectively stop all at once, but must work collectively, both nationally and internationally to ensure they such people do not have a place on earth in the future.

      Do you want to vote for that guy? He's probably right, but his story is depressing and he's telling us uncomfortable things.

    12. Re: Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem is, we're not choosing leaders, we're choosing rulers.

      Leaders travel together with you on a road with a clearly predefined destination.

      If 5 people are working on achieving a goal, they can choose a wise leader to empower them.

      If you're not in such a situation, you cannot be led.

    13. Re:Simple math... by ranton · · Score: 1

      You say we are smart, but then go on to say how dumb we are in falling for charismatic narcissists. I don't get your comment.

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    14. Re:Simple math... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K

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    15. Re:Simple math... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I guess it depends on your standards. If your standards are low enough, then all of humanity is really smart.

      "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin

      --
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    16. Re:Simple math... by gtall · · Score: 1

      Nah, Trump would still have won because he could tell bigger lies. Bernie was lying too about how he'd pay for all the baubles and trinkets he was offering. So was Trump, but Trump had a bigger bag of lies that would work with a bigger group of people. Personally, I think Bernie would have lost the popular vote.

    17. Re:Simple math... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      And now that we [evolved] these relatively fantastic brains... most people don't bother to try.

      If they have to "try", then they are going against the natural wiring of their brains. If you have to depend on mass discipline for people to be logical, you will probably fail. We are not a logical species. Our systems of organization have to take this into account.

    18. Re:Simple math... by chipschap · · Score: 1

      Something like the old saying, "The IQ of a mob is the average IQ of its members divided by the number of people in the mob."

    19. Re:Simple math... by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      > our every instinct, written over millions of years of hunter-gatherer society,

      I was going to correct you, as I believe anatomically modern humans have only been around for 200kya or so... then of course I recognized that we didn't pop out of the ether at that time, and the evolution of our social behaviour probably started with our first social ancestor - and that could have been shortly after animals colonized land 360 million years ago.

      Sometimes I am surprised by how fast evolution can go, other times the timespan over which it has acted simply awe.

    20. Re:Simple math... by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Nah, we're stupid.

      Millions of people play the lottery, thinking "somebody has to win!" while completely ignoring the fact that the lottery companies make huge profits.

      Ditto casinos: If the wallpaper is gold, there's free drinks and the croupiers are earning wages then you think you're going to win some money in that room? Really....?

      All a politician has to do is sell a bigger dream than the other politicians. There's enough stupid around that they'll eventually win.

      Somebody does win the lottery (other than the lotto companies). It MIGHT be me, assuming I don't get hit by lightning before then (yeah, I know the odds are higher for the lightning - and it's sunny this week!).

      And I have won at the casino, sometimes good amounts. Though, my losings certainly contributed to their gold wallpaper, but it's not much worse than other forms of entertainment. I never thought I'd quit my day job. :p

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    21. Re:Simple math... by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's it. The meanest chimp, the loudest baboon end up as the leader. We get Trump.

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    22. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because we like being fluffed and mistake fluffers for charismatic leaders. But in the end we'll take getting fluffed.

    23. Re:Simple math... by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It depends on why you're gambling. If you go to see a few shows, enjoy a few comped meals and drop a pre-defined amount of cash, it might actually be a rational decision. Perhaps even a bit of idle dreaming about getting rich. If you go expecting to come home with more than you left with, you are, indeed, a fool.

      For the lottery, some see it as a cheap daydream. That's just a matter of personal preferences. If it's your retirement plan, that's a problem.

    24. Re:Simple math... by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's because we're stupid. I think it's just because we're not super-smart. (And good thing we're not, because then we'd be up against some amazing liars!)

      You are probably a bad-ass motherfucker at something, and possibly several things, the more Rennaissance-Man-like you are. But you can't be an expert at everything (you just can't). So you're going to fall back to less-impressive (but still .. sorta decent) heuristics, both when you try to do those things, and also when you try to figure out if someone else is good at those things.

      Your heuristics can be deceived. You probably have some countermeasures against that, too, but just like the topics themselves, the meta-topic of judging other peoples' expertise, isn't something that everyone can be a bad-ass motherfucker at. And sometimes the person deceiving you can be a bad-ass motherfucker at deception.

      An average leader candidate ought to be able to trick an average person about half the time. Now throw in a dynamic selection process, where more persuasive candidates move forward ahead of the less-persuasive ones, and well-vetted leader candidate ought to be able to deceive a majority of people.

      We, average-skill deception-detectors, are faced with the some of the best deceivers.

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    25. Re:Simple math... by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      There's no doubt that the evolution of H. sapiens certainly came with significant behavioral changes, but even our species, for much of its time, has spent it in small groups. Large societies, and in particular complex dense urban societies, are a very recent innovation, and the evolution of governing such societies has been one of either trying to map instinctual dominance hierarchies on to these large populations, or try to find ways to circumvent them.

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    26. Re:Simple math... by sims+2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't remember that guy being on the ballot.

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    27. Re:Simple math... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      and drop a pre-defined amount of cash, it might actually be a rational decision.

      This is where a lot of people fall down though. Back in college there was a group of us who would go regularly to the local casino and we did beat the house (we did the same thing as the MIT students were a few years previous at a much smaller scale). Inevitability someone one would want to go along because they thought they could win big. My first response was how much money are you willing to lose. They would always respond back with none and I would tell them that they shouldn't go to the casino then. If they still decided to go I would always hope they would lose not because I wanted to be a dick but because far too often if they would win a reasonable amount, for a college student, they would go crazy and think that is how things are.

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    28. Re:Simple math... by Solandri · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's another factor you're failing to consider. While it'd be nice if we could spend years researching every topic before making a decision, frequently (and arguably the majority of the time) that is simply not an option. There's value in how quickly a decision can be made. Often, a mediocre quick decision can yield a better outcome than a well-researched, well thought-out decision which takes months or years to arrive at. This is why militaries organize themselves into ranks and chains of command - because in combat, the situation changes so quickly that if you spend hours or sometimes even minutes trying to completely understand the it, your conclusions will be obsolete by the time you reach them. You have to make a decision quickly based on the incomplete and imperfect information you have at that moment.

      That's why people are attracted to charismatic and confident leaders - because their ability to make quick decisions frequently has value. And once a decision has been made you can only compare to a hypothetical (what if a different decision had been made?). And confidence is great at swaying people away from thinking the hypothetical is better than the reality.

      You're actually using a classic coping mechanism for those not on the winning side of a decision - denigrating the decision maker by claiming this quick-decision process does not scale up at all. It scales up just fine. It's just that as you scale up, the number of decisions which need to be made increases. So even though the percentage of decisions which are better served by well thought-out research remains the same, the number of them also increases.

      If we really want to progress as a species, we have to avoid falling for either extreme of this argument. Certain decisions are better made quickly, even if there's incomplete or imperfect information. Other decisions can wait and are better if made after careful and thorough research. Both methods have merit. The test of our intelligence is whether we recognize them and treat them appropriately. Or whether we'll blithely apply a one-size-fits-all decision-making strategy just because we happen to like or dislike charismatic people.

    29. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you didn't. The standard for "fit" is pretty low, and kind of recursive, because it just means surviving long enough to also produce offspring, but it is a necessary requirement. High infant (and maternal) mortality has historically put pressure on people to try spamming as many kids as possible, but that doesn't mean there hasn't also some pressure to make sure there's some chance of every kid surviving to have their own. Humans can't dump 200 eggs in a hole and hope one or two of them will hatch, reach maturity, and produce offspring.

    30. Re:Simple math... by Obfuscant · · Score: 0

      Somebody does win the lottery (other than the lotto companies).

      In the US, those evil lottery companies are called "the government". The money they take in from the lotteries means they don't need to take it from everyone in taxes. I like people who play the lottery.

      And I have won at the casino, sometimes good amounts.

      People who play games that are pure chance are long-term losers. Every game has a percentage in favor of the house.

      Games that involves skill, however, depend on people who have no skill thinking they can beat the house for the house to make money. I have typically always won at Pai Gow. And poker, where there is no advantage for the house, they simply take in a rake off each pot.

    31. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of people don't seem to recognise just how much of an experiment civilization still is - how and why our laws and systems of government must still be flexible enough to adapt to changing conditions, be it environmental, economic, social and cultural. One of the biggest issues atm, is that our general laws and nations were based and built around local matters, and the world has now become so much smaller, the issues bigger in scope, yet so many cannot understand how, or even why, they should adapt and change - or worse, force everyone to fit within a structure that doesn't truly work - (e.g. the EU).

    32. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That guy never makes it to the ballot.

    33. Re:Simple math... by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      Nah, we're stupid. .. Millions of people play the lottery .. Ditto casinos

      Millions do it, but do most do it? I think gambling is just a niche, for some (far less than half) fraction of the population. That just tells me some people are stupid, not "we're stupid."

      Heh, googled it. All the top results are about addiction. Anyway, it looks like around 1/6 to 1/4 of people gamble. That's much higher than I would have guessed (I thought it'd be more like 1/20 or something like that), but nevertheless, telling me a quarter of the population are fuckwits, doesn't tell me the average person is a fuckwit.

      Also, about the fuckwittery: I think some (most? I hope) people who gamble, know they are losing money and that the house must necessarily make a consistent profit off them. They're doing more than gambling; they're buying something. I don't value what they're buying, but they do. Perhaps they like being around gold wallpaper, and enjoy drinking the "free" drinks that they're buying. (Am I stupid for buying electricity that I feed to the computer I play games on, even though I never win electricity back?)

      Leadership is different; unlike gambling, it's something that you have to tolerate. It's very hard to have a life free of leaders.

      Imagine there were a law that you are required to gamble! So you go looking for the least-worst game. (Craps, I guess?). Eventually all the non-gambler-type personalities are playing craps, because they're forced to. Then the craps houses have to compete, so one of them offers "free" drinks, another one offers a subtle rule change that you have to analyze carefully, and another one has cool animated wallpaper. Are you sure, even as a non-stupid person, you're going to get that choice right? Will you even remember what value you're trying to optimize? There's a law that you have to lose money, so are you trying to minimize that loss, or are you maybe trying to find the one with the best drinks, or the least travel time from your house? The more the houses compete, the more complex the problem will get. Eventually you will be up against people who a very good at making the choices be hard. You'll be thinking travel costs you $0.180 per mile when it's really $0.188, or drinking "free" drinks that are worth $2.91 to you, but they got their cost down to $2.78. You'll think their Fizzbin game's Tuesday rule is an advantage, but actually it puts you up against better players, and two of them (which two?) are agents of the house.

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    34. Re:Simple math... by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Absolutely. One only has to look at the US Constitution, which was largely written by large land holders with fundamentally agrarian interests. While the Industrial Revolution was taking off in Britain, and there were nascent industries in the American Colonies, by and large they were still fundamentally agrarian societies. That tension between industrial and agrarian lifestyles was just beginning when the Constitution was put together, and reached the boiling point in the Civil War. Non-mechanized agriculture requires a large labor pool, and very often an indentured one. Slavery was the very emblem of pre-industrial agriculture, and it's destruction was the hallmark of the victory of industrial society over agrarian society. The more swiftly industrializing North could far more easily dispense with the need of indentured workers (though not entirely, despite the mythologizing of the Union), whereas the still almost classical agrarian Southern society was still addicted to the drug of cheap, indentured labor.

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    35. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong, Illinois lottery fund is too exhausted to payout, thus anyone who wins simply gets told "some day we will pay you".

      Yet they still sell the tickets. This should be fraud.

    36. Re:Simple math... by postbigbang · · Score: 2

      It goes far more deeply than your explanation, I believe.

      Your "limbic" brain is a decision maker and reacts to fear and lust and more basal stimulus. The thinking brain, call it the pre-frontal cortex, takes a lot of work to use-- to think and consider alternatives and consequences.

      The narcissists are very good at appearing to use sound decisions, but they are sound decisions *for then* and not necessarily for you. They create reactive sound bite communications and even NLP communications to create an Us vs Them dichotomy that becomes appealing. Then they heap lots of disjointed, but seemingly correlating "facts" to make Us appear sooooo much better than Them, so as to allow vilification of Them. They use this in ways that polarize and aid their power and praise for seemingly being so brilliant. Rinse. Repeat.

      --
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    37. Re:Simple math... by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      I'd rather put it that certain classes of problems require quick solutions, even where an optimal solution cannot be worked out. So yes, I agree that some situations demand immediate decisions, and then you try to figure out how to make that solution work in the medium term. By the same token, the "decision paralysis" overanalysis is certainly a grave risk where a crisis is approaching. Firemen are a classic example of where you have a few rather basic rules, along with an understanding of the physical properties of fire, and you use them to make rapid decisions, some of which may be suboptimal, or ultimately outright wrong. However, when coming up with fire codes, one does have some luxury of time to come up with reasonable rules that prevent deaths, and maybe even prevent firemen from having to make dangerous snap decisions to begin with.

      When it comes to government, as I say elsewhere, you're usually dealing a vast society unto itself, with its own inherent momentum and rules, and changing that system requires a very good understanding of motivations, systems of control and accountability, so when you get some populist who declares "I'm going to throw it all out and make it better", you're not dealing with someone who is taking a calculated risk, as a general or a firefighter might, you're dealing with someone who is simply replacing competency and knowledge with hyperbolic chest thumping.

      A general may have to make snap decisions, but if they're not decisions based on knowledge of tactics, in other words they're not just random commands made simply so there are commands going down the chain of command, then that general is likely to doom his army. Even snap decisions have to come with some ability.

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    38. Re:Simple math... by hey! · · Score: 1

      You have to condition your results based on the circumstances of your study. If you do a study where you put a bunch of strangers together in a situation where they have to pick a leaders, of course the results will be biased in certain ways -- toward extroverts, narcissists and sociopaths. People who, for better or worse provide information (or misinformation) about themselves to strangers.

      But think about how unnatural such a situation would have been through greater than 95% of the evolutionary history of our species. Over most of that time you would most likely have lived in a small family group or tribe where you knew nearly everyone you'd ever meet in your lifetime intimately. Probably closer than you as a modern person know anyone else, because back then you would have done everything with everyone you knew, from hunting and gathering, to building shelters, to taking a dump.

      We are very well equipped to select which of our brothers and sisters are the best candidate to lead the clan, but we're not so well-prepared for choosing a CEO or president from mob of candidates we don't actually know.

      I did a little literature search a few months ago on the emergence of narcissistic leaders, and it works exactly as you'd expect: narcissistic leaders emerge in a power and information vacuum. But the few studies that looked at longer term dynamics show a dramatic decline in the group opinion of narcissistic leaders over time. This makes perfect sense. People don't actually want toxic leaders, they're just bad at spotting them.

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    39. Re:Simple math... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We're wired to be hunter-gatherers; small and generally fairly mobile groups where leaders were far closer to those that they lead.

      While I'm sure you're right about some of this, I think perhaps an even bigger effect is reinforcement through social norms. What are the "myths" of our modern societies? When we tell stories of "heroes," what are they like?

      And from fairy tales and fables through our modern blockbuster movies, we tend to emphasize the powerful, charismatic leader who takes risks, instead of the quiet, stable dude who actually gets stuff done day-to-day without seeking the limelight.

      Sure, we get the occasional "inspirational" story of the humble, quiet dude who finally gets recognition after laboring in obscurity for decades. But most of the "humble" types we see in fiction only become main characters when they start to act in unusual ways that bring attention, perhaps even becoming literal "superheroes" in much recent fiction. The standard superhero trope of the quiet guy who evolves special powers to save humanity is perhaps the ultimate beta-male fantasy: you skip all the social factors, physical prowess, etc. that get you attention and power and instead just are granted the power directly.

      Part of this is the nature of drama, too. Do we really want to read a book or see a movie about a guy who labored steadily in his office for 40 years and contributed to the company through all his quiet deeds? Or do we want to hear the guy make speeches, and have high-profile successes (and failures), and have "drama" as he works his way up?

      Even our news is shaped this way. It's a major factor in Trump's success. He clearly managed to get "free publicity" from news organizations most days during his election. Whether you liked him or hated him, he knew how to draw people's attention (both good and bad).

      Humble people just don't tend to draw that sort of attention -- not in our fiction, not in the news, etc. The closest we get is the occasional story about the value of "introverts" or whatever, but it's not enough. Until our dominant culture celebrates the humble folks in stories, in our news, etc. and acknowledges their superior results on a regular basis, there's no way they'll be valued as much.

    40. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because we're idiots.

      What if we aren't?

      What if we have a system where following a narcissistic leader usually results in crashing and burning, but in rare cases, your group hits the jackpot.

      Or to put it another way, imagine there's a game in a casino. It costs $1 to play. 99.99% of the time, you lose. .01% of the time, you win $10,000,000. Does it make sense to play?

    41. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We're actually smart, if not faulty."

      If you're smart, maybe you can explain to me what "if not" means here?

    42. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, slavery, in various forms, was found in almost all cultures through human history. Only in recent generations has it been phased out. Interestingly the same generations and race that led the charge to eliminate it are also the generations and race that is stereotyped as the slave master.

    43. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because we're idiots.

      Now, it's because we ourselves lack integrity.

      There's that saying that you can't con an honest man. Well, the promises that got Trump elected president were basically to get Americans a bigger slice of the pie by screwing over poor people in other countries.

      One of the most wonderful things that has happened in the last few decades is that people in China are moving up out of desperate poverty into a low-level middle class. But Trump was promising to push people in China back down into desperate poverty by taking away the jobs that were lifting them up out of poverty. And his promise wasn't to make Americans more efficient and productive to compete, and win, against Chinese manufacturing on a level playing field. Instead, he was proposing some vague federal bureaucracy that somehow cheat in favor of American workers.

      Now, an American with strong sense of integrity would be deeply uncomfortable with what Trump was proposing. Such an American would recognize that someone in America doesn't have any more fundamental right to a manufacturing job than someone in China - and that a person in China actually needs that job even more. But most Americans were eager to have Trump cheat on their behalf. And so they believed his lies.

      In short, selfish dishonest people are allowed to become leaders because most people in the world are selfish and dishonest and eager to believe their lies.

    44. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is how we got a racist, moronic, narcissistic, socio-pathic, lying, psychopathic bastard as our "leader"!

    45. Re:Simple math... by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      ... the quiet, stable dude who actually gets stuff done day-to-day without seeking the limelight. ... Do we really want to read a book or see a movie about a guy who labored steadily in his office for 40 years and contributed to the company through all his quiet deeds?

      This sounds like a challenge. Then I started thinking about it, and the best I could come up with is a scenario with a duo, with one active but ineffective front-man and a quiet but competent support. That's not totally unfamiliar, I realized. Maybe Don Quixote and Sancho Panza? Of course, who's still the title character? And even there, I think that's more true in the book, while the play version glorifies Quixote's dream, while the book mocks him more. There's also maybe Inspector Gadget, if you count a sentient dog and a crime-solving pre-teen girl as "boring, normal" people.

      Actually, for a long time I've wanted to write the story of a bunch minions working for a super-villain. The lab rat who is in denial she's doing anything but normal cultures, the welder who keeps his head down and is building the volcano fortress anyway because the hazard pay and benefits make it worthwhile, the professional procurement agent who, frankly, had more difficult and morally questionable assignments working for the dot-com before it went bust ... I figured you could put in glimpses of the titanic struggle in the backdrop while showing how much success or failure came down to the efforts of the little guy. (Confession: I'm at least partially inspired by the Scorpio episode of the Simpsons.) Back in the day I wanted to title it Minions, but I think that title's taken now.

    46. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It costs $1 to play. 99.99% of the time, you lose. .01% of the time, you win $10,000,000. Does it make sense to play?

      Unless the answer is supposed to be "hell yeah!", I think you left some 9s off of that failure rate.

    47. Re:Simple math... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      While 'quick decisions' have a merit in its own, it is still better if someone competent about the topic in question makes them, than a guy who has no clue.
      On top of that a smart guy/team will do a 'postmortem' or retrospective. Analyze in hindsight, what facts he had, what knowledge he was supposed to have and had, what reasoning would have been the best, which reasoning he followed. If his decision was correct, and if it was not, how the mentioned assessments can help him to improve.

      However there are people ruling this planet, or driving big companies, who never undertake self assessments and/or try to improve but only work for their own agenda: power and money. (And even if that is your goal: self assessment would empower you to get your goals quicker)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    48. Re:Simple math... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Bernie is probably pretty close to the humble side...If the dem's handn't shot him down and let him win. I don't think we'd have trump in the big house

      Somebody who accepts the "socialist" label is not going to attract centrists, and it's really hard to win without centrists. (I realize there's nuance to such labels, but nuance is often lost in campaign rhetoric. "Socialist" is a 4-letter-word in this country.)

      large number of people out there that don't want a bunch of gangsters like the clintons in office

      I think what you mean is they took FULL advantage of the grey areas of the law. (So does Trump; he even bragged about such.)

      If they survived 50 or so dastardly accusations without a single jail-worthy smoking gun, they are either genius criminals, or the victims of political exaggeration. Occum's Razor says the latter.

    49. Re:Simple math... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, as a group, "idiots" characterizes human beings best. This includes no learning from experiences, no understanding that things that look to good to be true usually are, massive over-valuation of short-term gains versus long-term losses, total incapability of any reasonable risk estimation and management, and a vast overestimation of ones capabilities with regards to understanding actual reality (known as the "Dunning-Kruger Effect").

      The amount of independent thinkers (a.k.a. "non-idiots", usually observed to be around 10%) is not enough to compensate. It is really surprising that the current mix between idiots and non-idiots is somewhat viable at all.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    50. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It Hurts because it is true :(

    51. Re:Simple math... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I disagree. The information on how things actually work is out there and recognizing it does not require a lot of intelligence, it just requires the will to look and understand. Not using capabilities that would be beneficial to use is the hallmark of the idiot and most people do qualify.

      Most people vote themselves bread and games until there is no bread and games to be had anymore and the huge (but entirely predictable) bill becomes due. That is another thing that characterized the idiot.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    52. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is intelligence is not a linear scale, you can't just assign it a number and say one person is smarter than another (although we try). Humans in general have certain things we are good at and certain things we are not, the problem is those failings can be taken advantage of.

      The thing is we live in a world of limited information, (how well do you know your leaders?) an we make the choice based on that limited knowledge. If someone is unassuming and humble you don't know they have no idea what they are, so we pick the person who we think is the best with the very limited information we have. There may be some great leaders in that humble group but there will a lot will also just have no clue.

      How Donald Trump was elected I don't know, fear, people being sick and tired of being lied to by normal politicians, so the elected a different type of pathological liar.

      Also humble people do not try to become leaders. They think most people have a valid opinion and they are no better than anyone else so why should they lead. Kind of the definition of humble.

    53. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humble people are also not draw to positions of power. They don't seek them out so the only way to get one in power is for others to volunteer them and thrust that power on them.

    54. Re:Simple math... by ckatko · · Score: 1

      >. If they still decided to go I would always hope they would lose

      What a narcissist. ;)

    55. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly.

      I used to go to the casino regularly with friends. We worked out a system that regularly won. But most of the people would deviate from it because they felt like it. Inevitably they would lose quite a bit at that point.

      People are incredibly stupid. They'll throw away reasonably sure things all on a hunch that maybe they might do better at random.

    56. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. People are definitely idiots.

      I know people who willfully backed conmen, with the assumption that the conmen wouldn't con them, just other people. And guess how that ended. With the conmen coning them.

      I've known people take sure things and get rid of them in favor of a slim to none chance for something maybe slightly better.

      From my experience... Most people have no concept of how to handle even a slight degree of complexity.

    57. Re:Simple math... by sydbarrett74 · · Score: 1

      our closest relatives the Great Apes

      Not to be pedantic, but humans are Great Apes (the other members being orangutans, gorillas, and chimpanzees). There is only one extant member of the lesser ape group: the gibbon.

      Hominidae Wikipedia entry

      --
      'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
    58. Re:Simple math... by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      "Because we're idiots" is evading the question.
      That some people are idiots, OK, I get it. Some people have crippling diseases, others are idiots, you can't always win at the genetic lottery.
      But when idiocy is the norm, then there is a problem. Normally, these traits should be selected out by evolution, and it is often interesting to know why that one stayed. Is it pure chance? is it because it co-exists with another beneficial trait? does it offer some competitive advantage?

      Understanding why we are idiots often has very interesting results, and often we find out that we aren't actually idiots.

    59. Re:Simple math... by phorm · · Score: 1

      Depending the game, nobody *has* to win, but it's a trade-off between potential returns and the money/time "invested".

      For myself, the cost of a lottery ticket is less than a cup of fancy coffee these days. It's a minimum cost for a minimal chance at a significant return.
      Am I likely to win? Nope. I don't really expect to either, but for $3-5 I can at least daydream about what I might do *if* I won, and it would be more life-changing than most other things I could do.

      I'm not sure that politics always fit the same logic, but I suppose the mentality of "I'm certainly not happy with things now so any small chance of change works for me" is tangentially related.

    60. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no doubt that the evolution of H. sapiens certainly came with significant behavioral changes,

      Been back in a time machine and watched them, have you?

    61. Re:Simple math... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Imagine there were a law that you are required to gamble! So you go looking for the least-worst game. (Craps, I guess?). Eventually all the non-gambler-type personalities are playing craps, because they're forced to. Then the craps houses have to compete, so one of them offers "free" drinks, another one offers a subtle rule change that you have to analyze carefully, and another one has cool animated wallpaper. Are you sure, even as a non-stupid person, you're going to get that choice right? Will you even remember what value you're trying to optimize? There's a law that you have to lose money, so are you trying to minimize that loss, or are you maybe trying to find the one with the best drinks, or the least travel time from your house? The more the houses compete, the more complex the problem will get. Eventually you will be up against people who a very good at making the choices be hard. You'll be thinking travel costs you $0.180 per mile when it's really $0.188, or drinking "free" drinks that are worth $2.91 to you, but they got their cost down to $2.78. You'll think their Fizzbin game's Tuesday rule is an advantage, but actually it puts you up against better players, and two of them (which two?) are agents of the house.

      The simple answer is that you don't try to optimize paperclip production to that degree. Overthinking is a cost in itself.

    62. Re:Simple math... by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I'm having a hard time picturing any culture that celebrates the "everyman". The "strong leader" is pretty much a universal cultural archetype. The precise qualities of the leader may differ somewhat; some cultures value a sober and reflective leader, some may value an extrovert, but in general the leaders most cultures put on the pedestal with the epithet "the Great" were the charismatic leaders; the Hannibals, the Alexander the Greats, the Julius Caesars, the Charlemagnes, the Frederick the Greats and so forth, and while all these men had abilities far beyond charisma, the one thing they had in common was charisma.

      When charisma is married to ability, well then you have the classical "great leader", but even some of these great leaders produced almost as much chaos as they produced great works; Alexander certainly built a vast empire, one of the greatest of classical times, but he also brought much wrack and ruin, and not even the glorious language his final march from India back to the Mediterranean can't hide the fact that even his troops were beginning to question his brilliance.

      Julius Caesar was a pretty damned good example of a man whose capacity for double-crossing and betrayal is almost without peer, and he still remains one of the most problematic leaders in history. So while he is one of history's "great leaders", to the powerful in Rome he was a right pain in the ass, to the point that even one of his closest friends plunged a dagger into him.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    63. Re:Simple math... by Imrik · · Score: 1

      It takes some serious financial incompetence to be unable to pay out with a 50% house take.

    64. Re:Simple math... by Imrik · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Imagine there were a law that you are required to gamble!

      There is such a law, though rather than gambling we call it insurance.

    65. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone should read "The Prince" by Niccolo Machiavelli. Get it now, it is short and interesting read. He analyzes the human "psyche" in detail.
      Aggressive people tend to dominate and take over. Before $ billions change hands, there will be some level of pain, up to and including death, if needed. There is no fair play. Evil people rule, always.

    66. Re: Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is, we're not choosing leaders, and we're not choosing rulers.

      Do you really think the 1% would leave these tasks in the hands of the 99%?

    67. Re: Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You break even if the payout is only $10,000 - of course you do, unless you hate money.

    68. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, you allowed a con-man (trump) to convince you that the other candidate (clinton) was a con-man as well

      Obviously, trump read you correctly as a fucking idiot

    69. Re: Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a mu h better sitcom than "powerless". I loved the minions episodes from Venture Bros. The beep bop boop closet scene set to Hayden's Mars in particular.

    70. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The money they take in from the lotteries means they don't need to take it from everyone in taxes.

      Maybe they don't need to, but taxes aren't going down.

    71. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because we're idiots.

      Your haste to be glib and fashionably cynical prevented you from thinking about what your own statement means. Funnily enough this proves your statement correct, at least in regards to yourself.

    72. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bernie was never meant to become president, not even candidate. His role was to divide the Democrats so they couldn't win the election. The DNC leaks were orchestrated by Putin and aimed at Bernie supporters.

    73. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Normally, these traits should be selected out by evolution

      That doesn't apply to humans because we have laws that forbid the killing of idiots and assholes.

    74. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing animal" - Heinlein
      Quick decisions based upon built up experience can work, but we often fall into reinforcing our emotional beliefs.

    75. Re:Simple math... by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

      The guy who tells the truth, that we have bad problems and they may not be entirely fixable, or that the middle class must necessarily bear the lions share of the tax burden, or that many of our perceived problems are more about not making the huge profits from WWII reparations that our parents benefitted from, and instead having huge debt from various police actions since then which we shouldered the costs for, that while there is a better way to live our country is largely ruled by a small group of wealthy self-interested pricks that we cannot effectively stop all at once, but must work collectively, both nationally and internationally to ensure they such people do not have a place on earth in the future.

      Do you want to vote for that guy? He's probably right, but his story is depressing and he's telling us uncomfortable things.

      No, I don't want to vote for that guy, because if history's anything to go by, the problem is going to be the solution--which is going to involve significant amounts of magical thinking, and possibly also some flavor or other of mass murder, because he's probably not going to even consider that some of these bad problems are better framed as 'reality' because as long as we frame them as any sort of problem people are going to whine and bitch and moan and riot and insist on a solution even when the problem is distinctly better than any solution.

      Sometimes they'll even insist that they've got a perfect solution and if only we try it everything will be perfect and if we've already tried it then it's failure is because we just didn't try it hard enough/believe enough/had somebody thinking skeptical thoughts which made the magic not work.

      Anybody who is both going to tell the truth and not offer a solution that'll make our previous problems seem wonderful--is not going anywhere near politics, regardless of how many people might want to vote for them.

    76. Re:Simple math... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      For the lottery, some see it as a cheap daydream. That's just a matter of personal preferences. If it's your retirement plan, that's a problem.

      It is my retirement plan 0. However, being pragmatic, Plan A is to work and save. Plan 0 just has the potential of shortening the time period.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    77. Re:Simple math... by epine · · Score: 1

      We have a name for people who are best served by quick decision making: we call them first responders (a category which sometimes includes pilots).

      Much of the rest of the time, quick decision making is used to whip up drama rather than obtain a broad, positive outcome.

      Poor slow decision: going out drinking without first planning transportation home.

      Seemingly great quick decision: serving to avoid hitting the lamppost.

      Poor quick decision: serving to avoid hitting the lamppost into oncoming traffic.

      Happens in politics all the damn time. Yet we still keep electing these charismatic blowhards. Many of Trump's voters explicitly praised his really short approval pipeline between brainstem and mouth. Who knew healthcare could be so complicated?

    78. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humity? Huh
      Is that word? Goggle can't find it

    79. Re: Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya boss, we're so stupid!

      I can't believe how fucking dumb we all are!

      I mean I can't even explain because we're so retarded!

    80. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ignorant can be taught. Except those people don't learn from it, so they are still idiots.

    81. Re:Simple math... by Place+a+name+here · · Score: 1

      I'm having a hard time picturing any culture that celebrates the "everyman". The "strong leader" is pretty much a universal cultural archetype.

      A lot of cultures have social regulations of the form "don't think too much of yourself, or you'll be cut down to size". E.g. Japanese nails that stick up, tall poppies, and Jante. Isn't that a darker version of celebration of the everyman? Such cultures would be more suspicious of people trying to appear to be great leaders, and would encourage humility instead.

    82. Re:Simple math... by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Charisma is essentially a form of deception. We all fall for deception at one point or another.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    83. Re:Simple math... by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Millions of people play the lottery, thinking "somebody has to win!" while completely ignoring the fact that the lottery companies make huge profits.

      Casinos are a good example of how we are stupid. Lottery not so much. Lottery is low risk, low stake. Not many people go broke playing the lottery. Casinos, on the other hand.... Jesus.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    84. Re:Simple math... by Maritz · · Score: 1

      The money they take in from the lotteries means they don't need to take it from everyone in taxes. I like people who play the lottery.

      lol really?

      How much did they reduce your last tax bill based on people playing the lottery?

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    85. Re:Simple math... by Maritz · · Score: 1

      If the situation is as you describe it's absurd that they haven't been arrested. It's about as clear-cut as fraud gets.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    86. Re:Simple math... by Maritz · · Score: 1

      We worked out a system that regularly won.

      Oh cool. It regularly lost too.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    87. Re:Simple math... by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Parent lumping in lottery people with casino people is kinda numb. Shows a lack of nuanced thinking if you can't tease those two apart. Lots of differences.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    88. Re:Simple math... by Maritz · · Score: 1

      Yeah this usage of 'if not' should have two adjectives that are the same but different in degree (it was cold, if not freezing). These mean totally different things (smart and faulty?!). Bad communication.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    89. Re:Simple math... by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Monkeysphere. Google it.

    90. Re: Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then eight years after that we elected Trump!

    91. Re: Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple all right we dont want humble people in the lead. You never get a answer straith away, becus if they dont know they will tell you that or that it needs looking in to or investigate.

      The narcesist will give you the soulotion strait away since he dont need to base the solution on pesky matters like fact.

      But still we tend to go for the guy with answers

    92. Re:Simple math... by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      >for a long time I've wanted to write the story of a bunch minions working for a super-villain.

      See if you can find the sitcom 'Better Off Ted'. The 'super-villain' is the board and upper management of a mega-corporation, but it's done from the viewpoint from the minions and supervisory level. And it's hilarious, and a tragedy that it only got two seasons.

    93. Re:Simple math... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      To be fair there are some games that can be beaten but it requires a lot of time and effort to master and then you also can't go with your gut. For example "by the book" blackjack at a casino with good rules gives you about a 99.5% payback. Most people don't play by the book so the payback is actually closer to 80% because they think they know better or have a gut instinct. Instead if you go and do a bunch of machine learning and take into account card counting you can get about a 100.5% payback but once the computer is done figuring out how to play you then have to memorize what to do given the count, master counting cards, and then be able to do that with all of the distractions. It isn't easy and the pay isn't great but one can beat the casino although if you do it big time the casino will kick you out and tell you to never come back which is their right.

      Played right the traditional table games offer a better payback than the old one armed bandits with blackjack and baccarat being the best, single 0 roulette (good luck finding one now), and craps not being too bad either. Again this is all assumes that you are making the proper bets and not going with your gut or playing your lucky numbers. Add in that these are social games and they can be a very cheap form of entertainment and a good time.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    94. Re: Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. You're gambling if you do not have insurance to protect yourself or others from financial risk. That applies to auto, health, house, whatever.

    95. Re:Simple math... by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Arrested by whom? You see, when the government does it, that means it's not fraud.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    96. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't say this is the case for everyone, but it was actually some of Clinton's supporters in the Democratic party, such as Nancy "We have to pass the bill so you can see what's in it" Pelosi, who convinced me that she wasn't worth my trust, respect, or vote. You can tell a lot about people by the company they keep.

    97. Re:Simple math... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound awful cynical. This _is_ how we learn as a species. It's pretty damned fast in biological terms. How fast do you expect evolution to occur?

    98. Re:Simple math... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      How much did they reduce your last tax bill based on people playing the lottery?

      lol really? You think "taxes" is a zero-sum game?

      And reading comprehension, please. I didn't say "taxes go down when a lottery is implemented", I said the money they rake in on a lottery doesn't need to be taken from everyone else as taxes, not that the amount taken from everyone will be reduced. Lottery "taxes" go to pay for things that otherwise would have caused a tax increase to pay for.

    99. Re:Simple math... by chihowa · · Score: 1

      That's great, but what you're talking about has little relation to charisma or narcissism. If we generally had leaders that made quick decisions based on insufficient or rapidly changing data that were mostly successful (even if not perfectly optimal), then we would have (a subset of the entire set of) good leaders. Just like we would have if we had thoughtful, strategic leaders that sometimes took too long to reach a decision.

      We don't have that, though. We have conmen, who are very often extremely incompetent at leading, and sometimes even incompetent at pulling off their con. The traits of charisma and leadership only intersect where it's necessary to rally a bunch of people with your charm. The traits of narcissism and leadership don't intersect at all, except in an accidental case-by-case way.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    100. Re:Simple math... by chihowa · · Score: 2

      Absolutely. Looking at all of the candidates offered over the last (how many?) electron cycles, I think that we'd legitimately get better results by randomly selecting a pool of candidates from the general population.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    101. Re:Simple math... by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      and drop a pre-defined amount of cash, it might actually be a rational decision.

      This is where a lot of people fall down though. Back in college there was a group of us who would go regularly to the local casino and we did beat the house (we did the same thing as the MIT students were a few years previous at a much smaller scale). Inevitability someone one would want to go along because they thought they could win big. My first response was how much money are you willing to lose. They would always respond back with none and I would tell them that they shouldn't go to the casino then. If they still decided to go I would always hope they would lose not because I wanted to be a dick but because far too often if they would win a reasonable amount, for a college student, they would go crazy and think that is how things are.

      My wife loves the slots. She seems to know which are going to give. For the last 19/20 times, we have left the Casino with more than with what we came with. I don't know how she does it. But it helps with the groceries and some bills. (No we don't play hundreds, only up to 30 max )

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    102. Re:Simple math... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I refer to it as the 401(l) retirement plan. So far, it looks like I have to stick to my IRA, 401(k), and other assets, and I'll be very comfortable on them.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    103. Re:Simple math... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Casinos are not an example of people just being stupid. There are people who go in there with a fixed limit of money they're willing to lose, and who get a little thrill they enjoy when betting. That's what they're buying.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    104. Re:Simple math... by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      Ok, excellent example.

      You're pretty smart, right? So tell me: are you confident that you are getting the best-possible deal on insurance? Do you understand all the ways the companies compete (and don't) and exactly how high you should have your deductible be, to get the "best" premiums vs risk mitigation? Have you actually read your whole policy, and researched every term that you thought might have a technical meaning other than its superficial meaning?

      And are you tuning it every year, as the insured object depreciates?

      Maybe you've got this nailed, but you'd be exceptional. Getting some aspect of this sub-optimally, wouldn't signify to me that you're stupid. You might be lazy, you might have enough income that you don't give a fuck about an extra $20/year, etc.

      Now if someone else points at a guy who has a $100 deductible on his car, and says "we're idiots," you're gonna say something like, "Hey, I don't have all my shit perfectly together, but that fuckwit isn't representative of us all!" and that's really all I meant to say about gambling. If you had to gamble, you'd probably get it about as right as you get your insurance.

      And you probably get your bullshit-detecting about as well, very roughly. That you miss sometimes, doesn't mean you're an idiot. We're not idiots; we're just in zero-sum competitions with people who are experts in their fields.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    105. Re:Simple math... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Of course, the casinos have taken countermeasures such as bigger card shoes to make card counting harder and reduce it's payoff.

  2. Steve Jobs & Donald Trump == #1! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do they have in common then and why do we like and admire them soo much?

    1. Re:Steve Jobs & Donald Trump == #1! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many many things. I'd have to tip my hat to Jobs though. He really did drive people to the brink of insanity and over it to get what he wanted. Trump is by far lazier, less driven and more openly and publicly crass.

  3. Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by colin_faber · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As this is something that I've thought about for some time. I believe the big reason here is not that people are stupid, or uninformed, I think it's more a matter of where they fall for the fuzzy decisions in life, either on the more logical side of things or emotional. Generally humble, quiet, non abrasive types tend to not evoke the same kinds of emotional response that you would see with charismatic narcissists. A fantastic example of this was the 2012 presidential election, emotions ruled.

    1. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And even more fantastic example of this was the 2008 presidential election.

    2. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People are very bad at risk assessment.

      Trump sold the voters on the danger of ISIS and Islam when in reality only a tiny fraction of a percent of the population has ever been killed by them.

      He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters despite the fact that millions of people are killed by curable illness every single year.

      Go figure.

      --
      No sig today...
    3. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Xyrus · · Score: 2

      Unlike 2016, where clearly logic was the primary driver? Riiiiiiiight.

      People, in general, are ignorant. But Duning-Kruger and various other "I R DA SMART" complexes prevent people from accepting that they're ignorant. A large part of that is due to the fact that ignorance is equated with stupidity and weakness in our society. No one likes to be considered stupid and weak, and it is far easier to stick with your uninformed beliefs than to actively challenge them. Add this to the large inertial mass of apathy in this country and you get what we have now: A failing democracy.

      Democracy fails when the people can't be bothered to educate themselves on important subjects, willfully choose ignorance, and/or let apathy take over. Trump wasn't a surprise or a fluke to anyone paying attention over the past couple of decades. It was an inevitability.

      --
      ~X~
    4. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And even more fantastic example of this was the 2008 presidential election.

      Funny, but I'd tend to disagree. The main problem, IMHO, with the 2008 presidential election is that we were given the choice between a well-spoken, well-reasoned black man and a well-soken, well-reasoned maverick Republican, but the latter decided to get votes he had to adopt Sarah Palin and ilk to get enough crazy Republicans to vote for him. Ie, it was precisely that McCain presumed that people would act on emotion that he went after emotion, and so he lost a lot of respect from the moderates who would have gladly accepted an established, experienced, respectable leader over whatever emotional precedent of having "the first black American President".

      But, that's my reading of it, anyways.

    5. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      And even more fantastic example of this was the 2008 presidential election.

      I thought the 2004 election was such a display. One of the most powerfully emotional debate moments I've ever seen was when W made the case that "I don't care what some people think about the Iraq war, I believe it's the right thing to do in my heart, and that it will eventually bear fruit." (paraphrased)

      While I disagreed with the war, he seemed very genuine in the way he stated it. In the ugly world of tit-for-tat DC politics, genuineness stands out.

      Of course, one can be genuinely flat wrong. But it was a powerful emotional appeal.

    6. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Linsaran · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Presidential elections tend to be ruled by emotions rather than logic, because people as a whole tend to be ruled by emotions rather than logic. If humans generally resorted to logic when it came to electing our leaders, the world would be a much more sane place.

      --
      In a bit of shameless internet panhandling, I accept Litecoin Donations at Lbd2oH9QsthD1GfuUXPyka12YxvWJYnBVf
    7. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In 2016, the logic was down to a choice between really bad and worse. Interestingly, O was the most narcissistic of the bunch in any election since 2000.

    8. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People are very bad at risk assessment.

      Trump sold the voters on the danger of ISIS and Islam when in reality only a tiny fraction of a percent of the population has ever been killed by them.

      He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters despite the fact that millions of people are killed by curable illness every single year.

      Go figure.

      As an unhappy Trump voter, the only reason Trump won is that he was opposed by someone worse. Hard to believe, but true.

    9. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Hillary wasn't the only other candidate on the ballot. So the red states actually chose Trump, because they've been brainwashed into believing in the two-party system, where any other party is to be ignored. Any other person on that ballot would have been better than Trump.

    10. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters despite the fact that millions of people are killed by curable illness every single year.

      This comment proves that people can be quite ignorant. I am sure that Joce640k is a very intelligent person, but this statement is just plain dumb. Last I checked, Obamacare is still the law. In fact Trump and the Republican leadership can't seem to even convince their own party on how to replace this it, even though that a main reason many of them won their election.

      Logic would then tell you that the millions of people killed by curable illness are actually the fault of Obamacare at this point in Trump's term. Once he gets his changes made, then you will be free to place blame where it is due.

    11. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by cmdr_klarg · · Score: 1

      People are very bad at risk assessment.

      Trump sold the voters on the danger of ISIS and Islam when in reality only a tiny fraction of a percent of the population has ever been killed by them.

      He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters despite the fact that millions of people are killed by curable illness every single year.

      Go figure.

      People do stupid things (like vote Republican) when angry and/or afraid.

      We elected a charismatic narcissist bullshit artist and now they're surprised when they find out that he lied to them? Go figure indeed.

      --
      THE SOFTWARE, IT NO WORKY!!!
    12. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're a fucking tool.

    13. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hillary wasn't the only other candidate on the ballot. So the red states actually chose Trump, because they've been brainwashed into believing in the two-party system, where any other party is to be ignored. Any other person on that ballot would have been better than Trump.

      Actually, I usually vote libertarian (but not always Libertarian Party candidates even). But, I really disliked Hillary so much that I decided to vote Republican. Pisses me off, because I don't like Donald Trump much and I like Pence less. While I agree that I wish more voters chose to consider 3rd party candidates, I decided to make a practical decision against Hillary becoming president. In an election like McCain vs. Obama, where I don't find either person particularly heinous, I will always vote 3rd party.

      It doesn't actually seem to matter who I voted for. The globalist agenda marches on.

    14. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or the left wanting more gun control laws while sipping on microbrews when alcohol is responsible for six times as many deaths per year than gun crime at nearly 90,000. The problem is even worse in Europe with nearly 280,000 yearly deaths due to alcohol.

      But getting drunk is fun and guns are scary, so lets reduce the scary one and binge on the one that kills us and gives fetal alcohol syndrome to millions.

    15. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most states are winner-takes-all. With such a system, there's no room for a third party.

    16. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the stupidest comment ever. Trump sold a lot of people on a lot of things. Only a fraction of his voters voted because of his ISIS stance.

      >He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters

      Like anyone knew what Trump legitimately wanted to do and what he was just saying for entertainment. Have you already fogotten what the election cycle was like? A goddamn joke.

    17. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by quantaman · · Score: 1

      As this is something that I've thought about for some time. I believe the big reason here is not that people are stupid, or uninformed, I think it's more a matter of where they fall for the fuzzy decisions in life, either on the more logical side of things or emotional. Generally humble, quiet, non abrasive types tend to not evoke the same kinds of emotional response that you would see with charismatic narcissists. A fantastic example of this was the 2012 presidential election, emotions ruled.

      I think it comes down to abstraction, a great way to make something sound like a great idea is to gloss over the complications. Giving a realistic assessment is a great way to sound muddled and uncertain.

      This election was a good example, Trump described everything as "great" or "terrible" and never went much further, other than to assure people he understood all the complications. If you think healthcare has problems it can be very reassuring to hear someone say they have a great plan that will fix everything, even if you should know they're lying you can get out of it by blaming them for deceiving you.

      Just try listening to Trump with your BS filters and outrage turned off, he basically comes in, lists your problems, and then promises to fix them. It's very reassuring.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    18. Re: Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes the left is the only party that likes alcohol and the right never imbibes. The right is for prohibition then?

    19. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by erapert · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Trump sold the voters on the danger of ISIS and Islam when in reality only a tiny fraction of a percent of the population has ever been killed by them.
      He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters despite the fact that millions of people are killed by curable illness every single year.

      I agree with you.

      Leftists sold the voters on the danger of owning firearms when in reality only a tiny fraction of a percent of the population has ever been killed by them-- and even those are almost entirely gangsters anyway.
      They then proceeded to institute a more and more socialist system that keeps blacks in the ghetto, fetuses in the mass graves (or sold off for experiments), and drowns the country in debt... leading, of course, to destabilization, revolution, and millions dying (just like the previous century).

      Would you agree with me that the solution is to institute a "smaller" / more restricted government?
      If you agree with that then perhaps we can both agree to vote for a libertarian (or Rand Paul or someone along those lines) in the next election.

    20. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Informative

      He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters despite the fact that millions of people are killed by curable illness every single year.

      The CDC doesn't agree with you, it seems. Our annual deaths from curable illnesses is more like 200K than "millions".

      Pkus there's the whole "dismantle the healthcare system" thing. No, he didn't. he didn't even dismantle the ACA part of the healthcare system. He asked Congress to do so, they didn't....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    21. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      despite the fact that millions of people are killed by preventable illness every single year.
       
      FTFY
       
      It seems to me that most people aren't interested in investing themselves into being part of a solution. They just want a quick fix. They complain about Big Pharma/HealthCare while they jam HoHos down their throats and drink themselves silly a couple times a week. Who's really killing who here? Imagine if people took up the yoke of health upon themselves? How much of the healthcare budget could go to curing the unfortunate? How many families wouldn't go bankrupt over a 50 year old having quadruple bi-pass surgery?
       
      It's all fun and games until you have your first real health crisis, then it's everyone elses' fault that you're still breathing after decades of neglect and self sabotage.
       
      This also stretches into other areas where people could take it upon themselves to be better people but instead they decide that they need a government to allow them to be pests and disturbers in their own communities.

    22. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Counterpoint. Hilary's supporters openly advocate for genocide against rural cultures. ISIS is focused on genocide. Trump is the obvious choice.

    23. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Also we would have fare more socialist governments, because the logical choice is to give everyone what they need to live first and then worry about the rest after. Only when people become emotional over someone getting something they are perceived to not have deserved do we need to fall to an imperfect system like capitalism to decide everything.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    24. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by hAckz0r · · Score: 1
      I believe you are spot on with that assessment. I had watched in dismay as my wife, an otherwise intelligent and well educated woman, fell lock stock and barrel for all the emotional rhetoric having no logical foundation during this past 2016 election. She had been reading all the rogue fake-news/alternate-fact websites and did absolutely no fact checking of anything they said, because that fact-checked answer would be contrary to what she wanted to believe. She listened to all the emotions and then closed her mind to any other possibility, and even stopped watching the nightly news that was more or less balanced reporting. Admittedly several stations were not very balanced, but then any publicity tended to be good publicity if you could prove you really didn't care what others thought about you and instead stuck to the emotions rather than facts or actual proposal of plans. The more indeterminate you were, with your expression of your intent, to put a plan together, the more the public at large liked the plan.

      The bottom line is emotion won over any level or fact and reason. Nearly all the emotionally delivered [non-]promises were either impossible to implement (financially, politically, or even based on actual physics) or were not even founded upon documented facts, but rather just ill conceived partial thoughts, pulled from an 'A', far away in some alternate universe. No amount of logic or reason can prevail when someone becomes so emotionally entwined as to deny the simple fact that reality, as a thing, might possibly exist somewhere on this planet.

      Step right up. Get your "super big" "completely impregnable" wall here, and we will solve all your problems! Never mind that man behind the curtain! [e.g. If you do get the wall as promised by the opulent snake-oil salesman, you also get the shaft. You are definitely paying for it, every penny, in the form of higher prices, not the Mexicans. One would think a Billionaire would understand simple economics. As an extra "free-be" we can throw in a little something to make that deal even sweeter, "all the US wildlife on this side of the river get to die of thirst, without the ability to get to the river". Ding, Ding, Ding! Give that little girl a dolly! Under this current "plan" we also stand to save lots of money on wildlife restoration programs, because there might not be anything left to save in the arid desert regions. Meanwhile the Mexicans just continue to climb over the existing wall, digging tunnels under it, or possibly shift to spending their normal smuggler handling fee instead on a standby airplane ticket for a "fun-packed-vacation" to the US, and just burn the passport/evidence and forget to go home. One positive benefit of the wall building project will likely be lots of on the job training for the Mexicans, who will likely be hired at minimum wage (or below) to actually build it.]

    25. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by kir · · Score: 1
      I've been away from /. for so long, I don't even know how to register a "vote" for your post. Your comment is very good.

      A fantastic example of this was the 2012 presidential election, emotions ruled.

      Very good.

      --
      3cx.org - A truly bad website.
    26. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's the Republicans voting out of "fear", then why is it the Democrats floating such air biscuits as "Trump is literally Hitler...", and fear-mongering the hell out of everyone?

    27. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Duning-Kruger

      //to do: buy new irony meter

    28. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Imrik · · Score: 1

      My biggest problem with socialism in the US is that the people arguing for it the loudest are also the people arguing for open immigration.

    29. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Imrik · · Score: 1

      Or they looked at the other candidates and decided that they were even worse than Trump.

    30. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People are very bad at risk assessment.

      Trump sold the voters on the danger of ISIS and Islam when in reality only a tiny fraction of a percent of the population has ever been killed by them.

      He then proceeded to dismantle the healthcare system with the blessing of his voters despite the fact that millions of people are killed by curable illness every single year.

      Go figure.

      Millions of people are being killed by curable illness every single year?! Clearly your "healthcare system" is not very effective. Scrapping it would at least save money.

    31. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hilary's supporters openly advocate for genocide against rural cultures

      Show concrete proof of this, or else admit that you are lying. Those are your only possible choices.

      And note that a handful of cherry-picked comments from random strawmen isn't proof. Bring solid evidence that your stated claim applies to the mainstream bulk of Clinton's supporters, because that is what you've deliberately chosen to imply. Anything less than this proof is an irretractable confession that you are a lying scumbag.

      We both know which route you'll take.

    32. Re: Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Outright lie.

    33. Re: Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound like a gun nut and an evangelical all mixed up in one demented package. Last I checked no one is advocating for 2nd amendment repeal, but there is rational concern about who is allowed to purchase firearms and what kind of firearms people should be able to purchase.

    34. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Linsaran · · Score: 1

      Frankly I fail to see the issue. We absolutely have the capabilities of providing basic living necessities for ourselves, and even 10 times the current immigrant population in the US. So why should it matter if we have a bunch of immigrants come over and 'leech off the system' so to speak? The people who want to build more for themselves will regardless. I don't see why we need to force people to suffer so that some 1%er can buy an extra jet every couple months.

      --
      In a bit of shameless internet panhandling, I accept Litecoin Donations at Lbd2oH9QsthD1GfuUXPyka12YxvWJYnBVf
    35. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. Emotion vs. reason is a huge part of the problem.

      However, I think herd-mentality vs. independent thinking is just as important (I'm always reminded of Andersen's tale of The Emperor's New Clothes).

      People need to be both rational and independent in their thinking. Even rational thought can be problematic if it is blinded to ideas and data from outside its own clique.

    36. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fetuses in the mass graves (or sold off for experiments),

      Bull fucking shit.

      vote for a libertarian (or Rand Paul...)

      Aha, I found your problem.

    37. Re:Logical thinkers vs Emotional thinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have shown no proof. This is because you know that none exists - no other reason is possible. You have admitted to being a filthy liar.

      You hate yourself, and you should. You're as worthless as you're afraid you are, and you're right to think that everyone can tell.

  4. That "we kill those guys" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or "we kill that guy" And we assumed no consequences really. Not realy.

    1. Re:That "we kill those guys" by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Humble people may make better business leaders, but that doesn't mean it is true for political leaders, where charisma can help to build political capital and accomplish things. Not all political leaders are charismatic. Some that were not: GHWB, Jimmy Carter, Harry Truman, Herbert Hoover. None of these guys were very successful.

    2. Re:That "we kill those guys" by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Humble people may make better business leaders, but that doesn't mean it is true for political leaders

      Lincoln and Eisenhower were both considered to be very humble.

    3. Re: That "we kill those guys" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually Humble and Charismatic can co exist.

      Why not have Humble Charismatic vs Charismatic Narcissists as an article?

      Because there would be no article.

    4. Re: That "we kill those guys" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah I find Trump a Narcissist, but definitely not charismatic.

      Hillary? Not humble and not charismatic either so she falls outside this scope of comparison.

      The article is shit.

    5. Re: That "we kill those guys" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find Obama humble and charismatic, but I don't think he's been a good leader

    6. Re: That "we kill those guys" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So where do trolls rank on that spectrum?

  5. Lack of education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We are simply not shown this at an early age, and we should offer mental health support for people who exhibit these narcissistic psychopath personalities.

    1. Re:Lack of education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem is narcissism is not that easy to treat. You have to accept that you need to change (the way you think, the way you treat other people, the way you interact with the world) in order to successfully treat a mental illness. One of the defining characteristics of narcissism is that a person suffering from it doesn't realize that they might possibly be wrong in any way. It's always someone else's fault. And even if a narcissist realizes that they need to change, they don't accept that experts know any more than them, so they don't accept the treatment.

      -Someone whose mother suffers from NPD

  6. Because it's easier to market confidence. by Last_Available_Usern · · Score: 1

    In a business where someone can be simply appointed this isn't an issue. But in a democratic process these people have to be marketable, and boatloads of confidence in ones job/abilities seems to be the best way to accomplish that.

  7. People are a Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "One of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
    To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
    To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
    To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem." - Douglas Adams

    Rune

    1. Re:People are a Problem by gweihir · · Score: 1

      And that is spot-on. The other half of the problem is those that go along with these people. The narcissist is only a problem if others fall for his fake promises.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  8. hold it - which humble people? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

    please list for me the humble leaders of the biggest corporations in the world

    1. Re:hold it - which humble people? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      please list for me the humble leaders of the biggest corporations in the world

      Not "the biggest", but I saw a segment on 60 Minutes last night about Hamdi Ulukaya Founder & CEO of Chobani and he seems to fit.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    2. Re:hold it - which humble people? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      but that's the point, a company like Chobani with $750M yearly revenue is small fry next to the big corporations of the world. Humble leaders are found in some of the small fry companies...so what?

    3. Re: hold it - which humble people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Irwin Jacobs of Qualcomm.

    4. Re:hold it - which humble people? by tranquilidad · · Score: 1

      Rex Tillerson, former CEO of Exxon/Mobil, the 7th largest corporation in the world. Now Secretary of State of the United States.

      He started as a production engineer and worked his way up.

      Don't confuse the leaders of companies with founders. I think you'll find more narcissists among the founders of companies than of the non-founding leaders.

    5. Re:hold it - which humble people? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Colman M. Mockler Jr., former CEO of Gillette (now part of P&G).

      He was very effective, yet very humble.

    6. Re:hold it - which humble people? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Or, somewhat harder, point to a humble person who'd make a good leader.

    7. Re:hold it - which humble people? by kqs · · Score: 1

      Brin and Page of Alphabet (Google) don't seem particularly narcissistic. You don't consider Google a big corporation?

    8. Re:hold it - which humble people? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Sam Walton rode the bus to work and packed a bag lunch when he was running WalMart. It didn't turn into a hellhole until he died.

    9. Re:hold it - which humble people? by Imrik · · Score: 1

      The biggest successes tend to be charismatic leaders because they are high-risk high-reward choices. If you want to be the best, a charismatic leader might get you there. If you want to be better than you are, a humble leader is a more sure path.

    10. Re:hold it - which humble people? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      google is an extremely narcissistic company that does much evil, including anti competitive practices and repeatedly fined for various privacy violations and even violating privacy of underage students gathering and sharing information gleaned with chromebooks.

      try another company please

  9. Results oriented by ranton · · Score: 1

    I believe it has a lot to do with most people being very results oriented. They are wired to believe successful results are due to good decisions and poor results are due to poor decisions. While this is usually or at least often correct, it is quite commonly a false correlation.

    If you look at a large high risk high reward people, obviously some of them will be successful. And they are very likely to be more successful than those who took less risks. Unfortunately no one pays attention to the large number of these individuals who failed because of their high risk nature. The problem is that in most cases their previous success was based on little more than luck, and they are very likely to crash and burn if they keep taking the same risks which worked for them in the past.

    --
    -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    1. Re:Results oriented by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "most people being very results oriented."

      Perhaps the perception of being successful, but as Trump has proven quite succinctly not the reality of such. Half of his business ventures have failed and the other half (save his real estate ones) haven't done all that well. I think one of the big financial news sources (Forbes?) did an analysis of Trumps investments and found that pretty fail-safe stocks/bonds would have netted him more money than his business ventures. And this was pretty well covered during the primaries/election but so many people still bought into the "business genius" image.

    2. Re:Results oriented by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe it has a lot to do with most people being very results oriented.

      I disagree. Obama said he worked with Russia to disarm Syria of chemical weapons (obviously a failed result), but you don't see liberals out in the street screaming "Obama lied and children died" like they would had Bush done the same thing.

      So it has less to do with results than what "side" the person is on.

    3. Re:Results oriented by Imrik · · Score: 1

      It's a different sort of results oriented. People want a good leader, so they look at the ones with the greatest results and look for one that is similar. Unfortunately, this is a very biased sampling, resulting in selecting people that take risks for large gains rather than ones that are actually good at leading.

  10. Because everyone thinks they will bring big wins.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And they will get a share of the prize. The same reason people play the lottery. People usually don't think and when they do, they only engage in short term thinking. That leads to high risk high reward behavior. They simply don't know better.

  11. Survival Mechanism by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    If you put the charismatic people in positions of leadership, it's often the place they can do the least harm. If you put them into some kind of productive role they will just screw things up.

    That is also why you never want to give leaders much ACTUAL power to affect people. This is where many governments have screwed up royally. The charismatic leaders are able to do things that affect a lot of people now, causing massive widespread suffering.

    The preventive measure is to make sure power is well distributed so people at local levels can mostly ignore pronouncements from ivory towers (see: speed limits).

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Survival Mechanism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wisdom of the ? ... when in all of history has your interesting and novel theory ever been tested? On what data do you base your opinion? I have never seen a situation like you describe for any government ever.

    2. Re:Survival Mechanism by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      It's not like charismatic people need to be put *somewhere* in any given company. There are plenty of unemployed people. If they were actually so bad for these companies to warrant putting them in the positions of least harm potential, we may as well make all the humble unemployed people CEO's, and fire all the narcissistic CEO's to reduce harm even further.

    3. Re:Survival Mechanism by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If you put the charismatic people in positions of leadership, it's often the place they can do the least harm.

      It requires a special level of idiocy to equate "having the magic numbers for the big bang instant sunshine things" with "least harm".

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Survival Mechanism by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Goodwin'd

    5. Re: Survival Mechanism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hollywood seems to be a valid example. Politics not so much.

  12. charismatic narcissists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I suspect it is the same phenomenon that is causing the rush to political extremism... the far right and the far left drag more and more people over to their side(s), causing a vacuum in the middle. unfortunately, it is those in the middle who can see something of both sides' arguments and try to accomplish coompromise, while it is the extremists who see the far side as wildly irresponsible. Perhaps those who feel most strongly are better at elaborating their case.

    the result is more namecalling and less actual useful stuff happening.

    1. Re: charismatic narcissists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the move to the far side there is polarization as well, entrenched positions and whatnot. The constant war-footing...

  13. Entertainment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because we've allowed entertainment to become our highest priority.

  14. Or take the middle path... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    Be an asshole instead. When I was lead video game tester at Accolade/Infogrames/Atari (same company, different owners, multiple personality disorder), I was humble to the testers on my team and an asshole to management. The testers, especially the older testers, loved me. Management not so much because I was willing to fight for my project and my testers.

  15. Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "We" didn't fall for the narcissist. "We" didn't fall for the fake news. "We" weren't all oblivious to the Russia connections. Some of us recognize Hannity, Limbaugh and the like as the entertainers they are, appealing to people's basest instincts, responding to daily requests of the GOP, and accepting advertising dollars from companies linked to Russia.

    1. Re:Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, instead you fell for the democrat propaganda. In your role reversal you made the Russians into the new birthers. When it comes to deceit, the democrats are way ahead of the republicans, and more evil.

    2. Re: Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      White the rest of us see you're points as fake news and recognize donations from Qatar, Saudi, Russia directly to the Clinton Fdn as the real issue.

    3. Re:Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "We" didn't fall for the narcissist. "We" didn't fall for the fake news. "We" weren't all oblivious to the Russia connections. Some of us recognize Hannity, Limbaugh and the like as the entertainers they are, appealing to people's basest instincts, responding to daily requests of the GOP, and accepting advertising dollars from companies linked to Russia.

      Yeah, instead you fell for the democrat propaganda. In your role reversal you made the Russians into the new birthers. When it comes to deceit, the democrats are way ahead of the republicans, and more evil.

      ahh, no to second AC. This is not a binary.

      Just because some recognizes Trump as being a near senile clown does NOT mean they supported Hillary or the Democratic platform.
      I'm speaking as a life-long Republican. I don't know a single person that thought either candidate would make a decent president. They all voted for what they thought would be the lesser-of-two-evils.

      If you think the media's presentation of the enthusiastic crowds of supporters for either candidate in any way represented the views of the average American, then I've got some penny stocks to sell you.

    4. Re: Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Donations* to the Clinton Foundation are many orders of magnitude smaller than the Trump Family's conflicts of interest. Furthermore, the Clinton Family was prepared to divest itself from the foundation and released its tax filings, whereas the Trump Family has maintained its interests, has not released its tax filings, and is committing blatant nepotism.

      *Show us where Russia donated to the Clinton Foundation! That's a laffer!!!

    5. Re:Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I'm a registered Republican. I voted for Romney. And I would never in hell have voted for Trump.

    6. Re: Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget about Trumps pretty steady history of misusing non-profit funds, tax evasion, ties to criminal organizations, etc. The Clinton's aren't perfect by any measure, but comparing the two is like comparing a person who gambles $5-10 bucks per week vs a loan shark that has peoples legs broke when they fail to cough up the money.

    7. Re: Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was on the D side and I've come to think of the last election as "The False Dichotomy"

    8. Re: Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why isn't this comment marked Troll?

    9. Re:Speak for yourself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They all voted for what they thought would be the lesser-of-two-evils.

      Which is total bullshit. A vote for Hillary is support for Hillary. You all just playing a blame game here. All our government's problems lie squarely on the shoulders of the voters, every last one. This isn't Communist China or some Central American shithole.. Here the voters have the government they want.

  16. why do i feel like by nimbius · · Score: 1

    I could argue this scientifically and rationally from behind a burned-out and slightly irradiated russian T90 battle tank with my parents, only to have them insist Sean Hannity was right and that my liberal agenda better not come up during the militias rationing of radiation blocking iodine tablets and canned beef.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:why do i feel like by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      I could argue this scientifically and rationally from behind a burned-out and slightly irradiated russian T90 battle tank with my parents, only to have them insist Sean Hannity was right and that my liberal agenda better not come up during the militias rationing of radiation blocking iodine tablets and canned beef.

      Because you might get it right in that scenario?

    2. Re:why do i feel like by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You feel like that because you have been completely manipulated by charismatic sociopaths to believe that anyone who disagrees with them (and by extension, you) is literally worse than Adolf Hitler.

      Subtle lesson you will never learn: humility isn't about how loud you speak in front of a cheering crowd, it's about whether you value other people and their opinions. You clearly despise your parents, believing that what you read on Daily Kos makes you more aware of reality than their 20-30 years of additional first-hand experience, which shows you have no humility.

  17. Trump has charisma? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Who knew. All I see is an orange baboon slinging his own figurative feces at onlookers.

    1. Re:Trump has charisma? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Probably his voters recognize themselves in him.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Trump has charisma? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see a successful billionaire hated and envied by lesser men.

  18. Perhaps the more interesting article by PortHaven · · Score: 1
  19. Charisma? by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    We seem to fall just as much for confident narcissists as charismatic ones.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:Charisma? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, that would explain Hillary's win of the nomination. She's a more subtle narcissist.

  20. People by mydn · · Score: 2

    NEWSFLASH: People are fucking stupid.

  21. Rather because "numerous studies" by Kartu · · Score: 1

    I'd say it is rather because "numerous studies" don't show anything like that, or please, be so kind to link them.

    Apple with humble dude as Wozniak instead of ass**le like Steve Jobbs wouldn't achieve shit, get real.

  22. Good thing we have a humble leader now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He's such a patriot. He's the best patriot. There's no one more patriotic than Trump. Or humble. He is the most humble. The best at being humble.

    1. Re: Good thing we have a humble leader now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of the best people are saying some very humble things about him, some very smart people.

    2. Re:Good thing we have a humble leader now... by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      I'm having a hard time imagining the last US president who could be considered "humble". I think Truman probably was, to some extent (or at least he was a reasonably miserable fellow, a sort of an American version of Clement Attlee), as was Hoover. Washington is portrayed as humble, but I can't imagine a military commander of his ability actually being humble; generals are just not known for their humility, but generals who are bred in war have to be both charismatic and able.

      The problem with democracy is that any would-be political leader has to have those hubristic "alpha" qualities that people, often wrongly, associate with great leaders. The advantage of democracy is that you can get rid of them, although a really bad political leader still will usually have at least one term to screw things up.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Good thing we have a humble leader now... by sconeu · · Score: 1

      Perhaps Ford? Remember, he never ran for the office until he already had it.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    4. Re:Good thing we have a humble leader now... by lactose99 · · Score: 1

      Silent Cal?

      --
      Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
    5. Re:Good thing we have a humble leader now... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      He is the most humble.

      I think humbug is the word you are looking for.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    6. Re:Good thing we have a humble leader now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carter, IMNSHO.
      He still is. Just out there doing, every damn day.

    7. Re:Good thing we have a humble leader now... by Imrik · · Score: 1

      I suspect we did better when we voted for electors, (better in the vote for president, not the vote for electors) but it'd be hard to be sure about that.

  23. People Like People Like Themselves by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

    In turn the people running the world are those who marketings/sales/business people like, most of whom are overwhelmingly sociopathic. When you're only skill is talking people into buying things you yourself don't care very much about it stands to reason the people you are going to consider competent are going to share that same skill as a minimum. If they aren't talking themselves up to get a position they aren't likely to get the position.

  24. How is charisma not a positive trait? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Charismatic people can inspire other man to do great things. This is assuming charisma is a bad thing?

    1. Re:How is charisma not a positive trait? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like most things you need a mix of traits (AKA a "well rounded person") for a proper leader. You wouldn't suggest handing a tank over to a person who's main traits were paranoia, a hard worker and anger issues. So why would handing power over to a poorly informed, charismatic, narcissist be a good idea?

    2. Re:How is charisma not a positive trait? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Charisma isn't good or bad on its own - it's how a person employs that charisma that is good or bad. So when charisma is the first thing people look for, or if it's the ONLY thing they look for, that's problematic.

    3. Re:How is charisma not a positive trait? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Charisma is a tool. Combined with stupid, it is hugely dangerous. If only charisma is needed to swim to the top, it becomes a problem by itself.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  25. Instinct, not thought by Archtech · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Many analyses fall short because they assume that we think these things through logically. On the contrary, this is an area in which hardwired instincts in the lower, more primitive parts of our brains take over almost completely. And one of the most fascinating things about human beings is how very clever people can be completely sure they are doing something for logical reasons, when in fact they are being driven by blind instinct. (Dr Freud was onto that fact with regard, mostly, to sex; and Dr Adler with regard to power).

    Homo sapiens evolved over at least two million years as a hunter-gatherer, living in groups ranging probably from family-sized to a maximum of perhaps 200 - possibly depending on the density of food sources. Such small groups would be critically dependent on effective and experienced command. Just like other land animals that live in herds, packs or prides, human beings instinctively recognize the vital necessity of social structure in the form of a well-defined pecking order and a universally accepted leader (alpha male or female). It's far better to have a relatively poor but generally accepted leader than no leader, when the group may break up or even start fighting each other. In that case they probably all die, and all their genes are lost.

    So one of history's observations - that people are often very willing to greet and cheer a "man on a white horse" - shouldn't be so surprising at all. And the converse of accepting and supporting the leader is usually hating and fearing outsiders. Unfortunately, this is one of many respects in which our ancient instincts, which served us well as hunter-gatherers, are now extremely counter-survival. (Although it's not at all clear that there is any good solution to the problem of governing human societies larger than a few thousand).

    Here is a good essay on a related topic: http://fredoneverything.org/th...

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    1. Re:Instinct, not thought by Archtech · · Score: 2

      There's also this excellent, if somewhat tongue-in-cheek, explanation by the great H.L. Mencken. Not bad prediction 96 years ahead!

      "The larger the mob, the harder the test. In small areas, before small electorates, a first-rate man occasionally fights his way through, carrying even the mob with him by force of his personality. But when the field is nationwide, and the fight must be waged chiefly at second and third hand, and the force of personality cannot so readily make itself felt, then all the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre — the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum.

      "The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron".

      - H. L. Mencken (Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920)

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    2. Re:Instinct, not thought by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      That fact has been observed for centuries now in the English-speaking world as centralized authority gained more and more power. By the same token, when you talk about the President, Congress and the supreme Court, you're also talking about the top layer of governance. Even the Cabinet is a sort of senior management. Governments themselves are actually astonishingly difficult to reform, and politicians who come in with fevered barnstorming declarations of how they're going to "drain the swamp" or whatever grand promises they make, swiftly discover that the vast overarching edifice of government has its own peculiar momentum, and that while change is possible, it is enormously hard, and requires a great deal of hard work, compromise, and acceptance that evolution is usually better than revolution.

      I think we're seeing the education of a President in real time right now. While most previous presidents have been members of the political class, and whether at the state or Federal level have some understanding of the mechanics of government. Trump is a true outsider, with little in the way of pertinent previous experience, and so his first few months have been a pretty harsh education in the powers of the Presidency, and just as importantly in its limitations. How successful he ends up being is greatly dependent upon HIS ability to alter the way his own behavior. I see some evidence of a shift in the White House, as the would-be revolutionaries like Bannon are eclipsed and their influence wanes.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  26. Citation please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "numerous studies" and "real-life examples" should be easier to quantify. You forget that the main quality of a leader is the desire to lead. Without that, I'd argue loud and long that you're not going to have a good leader.

    slashdot click bait, you got me again!

  27. Hardwired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We appear to be hardwired to believe any story that says we're hardwired for something...

  28. Define Humble? by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 1

    what and how do you define humble in such a way it can be measured and then studied?
    Humble is sometimes defined as the opposite of pride, but not all self value is pride so , again, define humble?
    So far as I know humble is defined as such:
    https://www.google.com/webhp?s...

    Humility is a christian value , but honestly I don't see it as something logically consistent with any kind of Atheistic Darwinian thought process.
    How does the humble man fair when 'survival' of the fittest is the only real rule?

    --
    âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
    1. Re:Define Humble? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humility is a christian value , but honestly I don't see it as something logically consistent with any kind of Atheistic Darwinian thought process.
      How does the humble man fair when 'survival' of the fittest is the only real rule?

      I'm not aware of anything atheism or evolutionary theory predict about values. Atheist values are all over the board... they only have a common thread in their position on the existence of deities (n=0).

      Unless you're talking about "evolutionary psychology"? That stuff is a load of soft-science bunk.

    2. Re:Define Humble? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that observed psychological phenomena don't have evolutionary roots? Evolutionary psychology isn't exactly a "left field" discipline, and a lot of time is spent studying other species to try to determine the roots of human behaviors.

      As to "values", there is very little consistency in time and space, even where religious affiliation has remained constant. Five hundred years ago virtually every Christian society permitted some sort of indentured worker, and even two or three hundred years ago, slavery was practiced by plenty of God-fearing Christians. Women were basically chattel until the beginning of the 20th century in most Christian jurisdictions, and many Christian societies were overtly racist.

      Five hundred years ago being seen as a heretic in Italy meant you had a high risk of ending up being burned alive, and nowadays the Catholic Church officially decries capital punishment, not just for "thought crimes" but even for murderers.

      Certainly there is some commonality between different civilizations in the nature of moral codes, simply because most societies have been confronted with similar problems and a limited number of solutions. But the underlying rule of social animals, whether they be the great apes or other species, is that there be rules. The rules themselves have been highly variable in time and place, and codes of conduct we would find abhorrent were common place in ancient times, even among the Judeo-Christian peoples, to the point that even by the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, early Christians created a sort of "escape" clause to get them out from under the more prohibitionary Hebrew legal rules by declaring Jesus had "completed" the Old Law, and had this nice new law, though Christians have spent the last two thousand years debating which of the Mosaic Laws still apply and which don't.

      And this sort of cultural and moral evolution has taken place in every society, simply because, like it or not, morals evolve over time, and religious and secular authorities need to maintain the relevance of a society's set of beliefs by constantly retconning the rules of conduct.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Define Humble? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to assume that "fittest" means "strongest", and by extension, "most able to advance one's won interests at the expense of others". It doesn't - it means "able to find and fill a niche".

      And while humility may be a value that is nominally prized in Christianity, it is certainly not exclusive to Christianity. Greek Mythology is filled with punishment being doled by the gods to those who fail to show proper humility - be it Icarus, or Cronus, or Prometheus, or Tantalus, or Heracles, and so on - and mythology from cultures around the world includes many stories of the same nature. And beyond that, most "Christians" in the public arena in the US demonstrate very little in the way of humility, instead making a show of the occasional pious act while leaving it behind when it comes time to govern.

    4. Re:Define Humble? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      I never heard that being humble is a christian value. You have any references?
      However most Asian cultures, regardless of minor or majour Asia consider being humble a high high character quality. That extends to many 'warrior cultures'.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    5. Re:Define Humble? by Imrik · · Score: 1

      The humble man causes others to underestimate him, resulting in a potential advantage.

    6. Re:Define Humble? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you saying that observed psychological phenomena don't have evolutionary roots?

      No, I'm saying the brain is extraordinarily complex, and trying to trace the neurological roots of behavior is way beyond what evolutionary science can do with any accuracy.

      Evolutionary psychology isn't exactly a "left field" discipline

      It's more like pop-sci, it's almost entirely guesswork based on circumstantial evidence.

    7. Re:Define Humble? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
        - Luke 18:14.

      “Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you.”
        - First Peter 5:5-6

  29. Simple by wickerprints · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The appearance of competence is not the same as actual competence.

    Actual competence is difficult to assess when the outcome measures are subjective.

    Incompetent yet successful people are more likely to be proficient at masking their incompetence through lying and psychopathic manipulation.

    1. Re:Simple by erapert · · Score: 1

      Incompetent yet successful...

      If they're successful then in what sense can they be said to be incompetent?

    2. Re:Simple by Sumus+Semper+Una · · Score: 1

      Incompetent yet successful...

      If they're successful then in what sense can they be said to be incompetent?

      If I get you to invest in my hare-brained idea that I never thought through and don't have the skills to make into a reality, I could be considered both successful and incompetent.

    3. Re:Simple by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      Being highly paid but nevertheless unable to do your job. This is honestly not a hypothetical. If you have a staff that can cover for you, for years, then you definitely are successful. Also, Donald Trump.

    4. Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Incompetence at matters relating governing skill and decision making. Success at matters relating to taking credit and putting spin on personal testimony.

  30. Because charisma is the ability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to control people. The crowd has no choice but to follow. There are some that are immune to it but the majority of people aren't.

    1. Re:Because charisma is the ability by sabbede · · Score: 1

      It's not an ability, it's a trait. One that has nothing to do with control in and of itself. It means that people are at least open to listening to you, and may actively want to listen because you're so darn interesting. Obviously, that opens a door to controlling people, but that is just the means to control, not the will.

  31. Learning new skills by audi100quattro · · Score: 2

    They tell us what we want to hear, not what is right. Public speaking, leadership, campaigning are skills like any other fortunately.

  32. We are poo-flinging apes [Re:Simple math...] by Tablizer · · Score: 2

    To put it another way, we evolved from chimp-like apes and are still merely apes. Just because we can talk and use symbols to communicate doesn't make us non-ape-like. We still collectively follow the shiny red ball at the expense of logic (or a shiny orange ball of fur).

    I see at work almost half of what's done is waste due to lack of planning and office politics. The "leaders" are posturing buffoons who are mostly clueless about the subject matter and easily steered by bullshit-artists. None of the yes-men/yes-women dare offend the leader's fragile ego by introducing reality into the conversation. If and when another alpha-male wannabe comes along to challenge them, it turns into a nasty king-of-the-hill war that drags everything into it.

    I now try to think of work as a jungle safari instead of a place of economic productivity. The first is more fitting and less stressful: you are then not surprised when a poo-flinging fight breaks out, because after all, humans are nothing but animals. I've never seen anybody yell at a chimp, "Why don't you just be rational!?"

    1. Re:We are poo-flinging apes [Re:Simple math...] by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Actually we are equally far away, genetically, from Chimps as from Bonobos. Which again are equally far away from each other, genetically as from us (more or less).
      Both have completely different social behaviour, especially regarding sex and cooperation. There is a new book, analyzing the various cultural differences in mankind especially regarding sex, marriage, family and homosexuality etc. The authors try to find explanations for the cultural differences in man kind and compare/connect them to either
      Bonobo or Chimps and compare.
      Have not read the book yet. Don't have the name at hand either.
      However it is pretty clear that lots of stuff is culture, and not genetics.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    2. Re:We are poo-flinging apes [Re:Simple math...] by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      [humans] have completely different social behavior [than apes], especially regarding sex and cooperation

      I don't think so. We might be monogamous on paper, but not in practice. And the "top dogs" still gets more "hot stuff". Even more so under polygamy.

      lots of stuff is culture

      yes, but culture is shaped by our ape-like instincts.

    3. Re:We are poo-flinging apes [Re:Simple math...] by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Erm, I explained bad perhaps (again?)
      Bonobos and Chimps are at 100% different ends of the spectrum regarding sex and social behaviour.
      And humans span that 100% and exceede both ends by a good margin.
      Nevertheless all 3 species have more than 95% of the genome identically.

      And the "top dogs" still gets more "hot stuff". Actually not. It is no difference if you have three times sex with three different women a day, or three times sex with the same woman a day. It is just in your mind. And: I'm certain I have more sex with my fiancé/GF than most (I scratched 'any') 'top dog' ... because I and my GF/fiancé have the time for it, the 'top dog' most likely has not. And we are actually doing it and not just dreaming or talking about it.

      Perhaps it is opposite around, super sexy 'hot stuff' has a bigger chance to get some 'hot dog'?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    4. Re:We are poo-flinging apes [Re:Simple math...] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, bonobos and chimps are closer to each other than they are to humans by a (relatively) long shot. Humans share 98.7% of their genome with both chimps and bonobos, whereas bonobo and chimp genomes are 99.6% similar. Which lines up with the taxonomy: chimps and bonobos share a genus (Pan), whereas humans are a different genus (Homo).

    5. Re:We are poo-flinging apes [Re:Simple math...] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, I only fling troll flames, not poo. It's only virtual poo. I'm evolved.

    6. Re:We are poo-flinging apes [Re:Simple math...] by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure "it's no difference". For one, there's a point of diminishing returns.

  33. Oh, the humity! by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 2

    The humity, exuded by these leaders, can be contagious.

    That's exactly the problem! Nobody wants to catch humity; it will lead to poor editing skills that will spread to the entire organization!

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    1. Re:Oh, the humity! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wanted to stand out, be a leader, and be more successful, so I got a de-humilifier.

  34. Because... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    Occam's razor tells us Humans are assholes.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    1. Re:Because... by lactose99 · · Score: 1

      At least some research shows quite the opposite actually.

      --
      Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
    2. Re:Because... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      At least some research shows quite the opposite actually.

      So anyhow, you figure that our being in constant warfare killing each over for fun becaus our religion said so, or apparently just for the LuLZ is a fringe case? Or maybe humans are the best mashchists nature has ever produced, and we just do this to ourselves for something something reason?

      As much as I'd like to believe that humanity is inherently peaceful and loving, I'd have to hold two diametrically opposed opinions at one time. one that says yes, Humans are great, and the other that watches the news. That isn't even being pessimistic, it's just counting corpses.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    3. Re:Because... by TheEden · · Score: 1

      The brain being hardwired to empathy or friendship does not exclude being utterly sadistic/brutal/merciless to those one does not consider a friend or object of empathy though. You do care about you family more than, say, your neighbors or that other dude on the other side of a planet in that 3rd world country getting acute lead poisoning, right.
      I'm fairly sure thats why people in power generally dont give a crap about all that small people. They do have people they really care about, and it just so happens that these people are (naturally) not their electorate, there are wives, husbands, lovers, concubines, kids, old pals and so on. So we all get crewed for a noble reason, because humans are empathic, have friends and all that...

    4. Re:Because... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      The brain being hardwired to empathy or friendship does not exclude being utterly sadistic/brutal/merciless to those one does not consider a friend or object of empathy though.

      You don't know it, but you are arguing my point. You're just saying that humans are wired for empathy toward family, That means they are hardwired towards brutality towards those they consider not family. Unless you want to provide an alternative explanation for the state of the world.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    5. Re:Because... by TheEden · · Score: 1

      Thats right, I don't. And i actually agree with your point. I never said being empathic to someone means being brutal so someone else, either. In most cases, i think, its more about apathy than outright agression towards those who are outside one's scope of interest. On the other hand, empathy can only go so far, and one can only help a limited amount of people, regardless of how incredibly empathic that person can possibly be. So all I`m saying is that one does not exclude another.

      And if that's really is main problem of the world, and whether or not we can fix it with tools we have - if I knew that, I'd probably start my own presitential campaign, or at least my own religion.
      But here I am, posting another useless comment...

  35. Re:The majority of us don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not to mention that there are a whole lot of other countries whose people don't seem to fall for charismatic narcissists to nearly the same degree. To paraphrase Shaw, the customs of a particular tribe do not constitute the laws of the universe.

  36. stupid is as stupid does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the big reason here is not that people are stupid, or uninformed, I think it's more a matter of where they fall for the fuzzy decisions in life.

    "people are not stupid, but rather they are stupid"

  37. I blame the illegal immigrants by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

    Why do we fall for charismatic narcissistic candidates?

    I blame the illegal immigrants for that.

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    1. Re:I blame the illegal immigrants by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      That was easy, as plenty of them are more charismatic than ... (insert random american or german politician, yes, I'm german).

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  38. How else... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is the Shadow Government supposed to be able to do it's job????

    It's not like you can actually get any work done when people are watching you and ripping you apart limb from limb.... that's what figureheads are for! :D

  39. Gotta insult PARTY_B for any reason, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Vapid otherwise.

    1. Re:Gotta insult PARTY_B for any reason, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Such thin skin, wait till the type things said about Killary are said about him.

  40. Re:Rather because "numerous studies" by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Apple with humble dude as Wozniak instead of ass**le like Steve Jobs wouldn't achieve...

    Without Woz's technical expertise and experience, Apple would probably never exist. It took teamwork.

    But Woz is probably not a good example because he's not cut out to be an executive, period. It's a false dichotomy.

    Darwin E. Smith or Colman Mockler are better examples of humble yet successful leaders.

  41. Derp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Humble people are easy to walk over. You don't want that in a leader, especially if there's any sort of competition or aggression involved in what you're leading.

    1. Re:Derp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humble people are easy to walk over. You don't want that in a leader, especially if there's any sort of competition or aggression involved in what you're leading.

      The thing that puzzles me most about the Trump presidency is why Trump would even want to be president. For an ordinary American, being president would be a chance to upgrade the salary and perhaps the wife. But Trump already has plenty of money and wife who's able to look good when she wants to. A more generous person might become president out of a sense of altruism - in order to make things better for others. But Trump is not generous.

      About the only answer that I can come up with is that he's very aware that he's only got a few more years left before he dies of old age - a death that will almost certainly be slow, painful and deeply humiliating. Incidentally, given that he's subject to the US healthcare system, his death will almost certainly also be very expensive. But, he's one of the few Americans who has enough money where that won't be serious concern. Anyway, my guess is that he's desperate for some sort of transcendental meaning to his life that can take the edge off his impending death. If your goal in life is to be as selfish as possible and you've focused on taking as much as you can for yourself in order to live a life that maximizes your own material comforts then the inevitability of dying is a major slap in the face.

      So Trump dreams the impossible dream. He lives the lie that he can "make America great (again)" primarily by cutting his own taxes. For most Americans, making America great would involve more financial security - not having to worry about having enough savings to put the kids through college or for retirement - essentially, it means making America like Denmark. Now, there's a good chance that America could become a lot like Denmark by doing the same things that Denmark is doing. But Trump's dream is to make America like Denmark by doing the opposite of what Denmark is doing - that is, by cutting taxes on the ultra-rich and increasing spending on things that don't make Americans more financially secure - such as the military.

      But Trump could almost certainly find more meaning for his life in activities that were far more humble than become president of the USA. He could help his friends and family. He could contribute to local charities in New York. He could enjoy an afternoon in bed with his wife.

      Getting back on topic, people who are humble in the sense of seeing life clearly - knowing who they are and what's really important to them - are less likely to fight unnecessary battles. Yes, they're likely to let people "walk over them" (be flexible) on things that don't really matter. But they're likely to find ways to stand their ground and actually achieve the things that do matter. People who are humble are much better at prioritizing the things that really matter - which is the core skill that you need to be a good leader.

    2. Re:Derp by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      To me it's clear that Trump became president in order to have tax payers pay for his family's lodging and vacations. He's making tons of money just by using his properties as president. I'm sure that's just the tip of the iceberg.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    3. Re:Derp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you should look up the meaning of humility. Humble does not mean weak. It is an indispensable quality in a leader, and those who do not possess it are not likely listen to people who know better. No one knows everything, and those who think they do are a menace to society. The sort of leader you refer to drives companies into the ground one after another.

  42. Wizard's First Rule by jasenj1 · · Score: 1
  43. Re:Rather because "numerous studies" by Kartu · · Score: 1

    We only know Woz's name, because of Jobs.
    It take an ass**le with huge ego to create "reality distortion field".

  44. Evolutionary Adaptation by avandesande · · Score: 1

    I've mentioned this before and have received some snarky comments but having a number of socipathic individuals in a community is an evolutionary advantage. Without them there is nobody to stir the pot, breed discontent, find what is over the next mountain or large body of water etc etc.

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
    1. Re:Evolutionary Adaptation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've made a claim and not backed it up. This too is a problem in society.

    2. Re:Evolutionary Adaptation by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I don't see any correlation between sociopathy and exploratory urges or public debate. Sociopaths don't tend to worry about long-term consequences at all, which is how they usually get found out. Sure, they come in with their magnetic personality and certainly convince people that they have the qualities of a good leader, but their fundamentally anti-social nature and general disregard for other people, not to mention their poor impulse control, usually out them soon enough. They can, of course, cause a great deal of damage in the meantime. I don't think being a sociopath is a requirement of being a contrarian, and indeed, while I find contrarians do usually have pretty inflated egos, the ones I've met (admittedly anecdotal) still seem to abide by basic social norms and usually seem fairly sincere (in other words, there's none of that narcissistic self-aggrandizing). And I see absolutely no connection between sociopathy and wanderlust.

      I have heard the argument that certain occupations may give those on the more narcissistic end of the spectrum; for instance neurosurgeons, where an ability to disregard the supreme risks of screwing around with someone's brain is actually of an advantage. I'm not sure I entirely buy that, but if it is the case, then it's only a pretty small number of occupations where being an out and out sociopath or psychopath is actually a good thing.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Evolutionary Adaptation by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Christopher Columbus, Brigham Young, Ghengis Khan... Napolean? What great migration of people wasn't preceded by a sociopath?

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    4. Re:Evolutionary Adaptation by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I don't see any evidence of these people being sociopaths. Being narcissistic isn't in and of itself a definition of a sociopath.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:Evolutionary Adaptation by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Ghengis Khan believed that ability to conquer is the only qualifying test for whether one should conquer, ability to kill is the only test whether one should kill. His ethos was "I am the wrath of God and if you are without sin, then why am I your punishment?" This does not seem like a case of simple narcissism. This level of emotional detachment from the act of murder is generally considered sociopathic.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    6. Re:Evolutionary Adaptation by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Have a pretty vile ethos doesn't make one a sociopath, and people can commit or oversee horrific acts without being sociopaths. Fanaticism, for instance, may involve a whole host of abnormal psychological issues, and still not be sociopathic at its core.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    7. Re:Evolutionary Adaptation by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Neither Christopher Columbus nor Ghengis Khan where sociopaths. About Napoleon, I'm not sure and the fourth one I don't know.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    8. Re:Evolutionary Adaptation by avandesande · · Score: 1

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      According to the report, Columbus once punished a man found guilty of stealing corn by having his ears and nose cut off and then selling him into slavery. Testimony recorded in the report claims that Columbus congratulated his brother Bartolomeo on "defending the family" when the latter ordered a woman paraded naked through the streets and then had her tongue cut out for suggesting that Columbus was of lowly birth.[85] The document also describes how Columbus put down native unrest and revolt; he first ordered a brutal crackdown in which many natives were killed and then paraded their dismembered bodies through the streets in an attempt to discourage further rebellion.[86] "Columbus's government was characterised by a form of tyranny," Consuelo Varela, a Spanish historian who has seen the document, told journalists.[85] "Even those who loved him [Columbus] had to admit the atrocities that had taken place."[85]

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    9. Re:Evolutionary Adaptation by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Really, where are you getting your definition of sociopath? The vast majority of them are not in jail....

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    10. Re:Evolutionary Adaptation by superwiz · · Score: 1

      It's not the ethos itself which suggest pathology. It's the ability to function within this particular framework on day-to-day basis. Generally, sociopathology is associated with having minimal emotions in response to emotions (whether suffering or pleasure) of other people. This maybe an in-born response in some and a trained response in others. But the end-effect is that the parts of the brain which get supplied with blood during emotional response (in non-sociopaths) do not get supplied with blood in sociopaths. This is how sociopathology can be observed in scans. I think by talking about what is causing behavior, rather than what the behavior is, you overemphasize the nature and de-emphasize the nurture part of the pathology. And, as you probably know, both usually contribute. Any individual who does not feel the emotions (regardless of which emotions they actually exhibit) in the standard range of emotions in response to (actively) observing pain or pleasure in others is exhibiting sociopathy regardless of whether it's a trained response or an inborn response.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  45. As the Trump issue proofs by no-body · · Score: 1

    - education level, dumbness, idiocy is the cause, look at the audience's brightness there:

    Idiot on the microphone (look at his very complex sentence structure) and more brightness radiating cheering audience.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    1. Re:As the Trump issue proofs by sabbede · · Score: 1

      If simple sentences are an indicator of idiocy, Hemingway must have been a complete moron.

  46. Promises, promises by TWX · · Score: 1

    The answer is because humble people don't over-commit and don't promise that which they can't deliver. Charismatic Narcissists have a much greater chance of doing just that. It almost doesn't matter if they believe they can deliver or know that they can't, the end-effect is still the same.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  47. Side effect of over-commercialism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The things that make a narcissist win are all secondary measures. Charm is not talent. The people who put them in power are less able to measure talent, and less able to devalue charm to the inclusion of talent.

    A civilization that watches commercials for 15% of 40 hours of their weeks, is going to have a very deeply ingrained incapacity to measure actual value, and instead to be driven and influenced by the secondary metrics that are easily exploitable.

    This is a sickness of the society. The problem is that it takes stunningly longer for the social network and norms to evolve to resist this virus than it does for any individual. It is very likely that these excursions can deeply harm or kill the organism.

    I deeply hope we are not a species where the sociopath wins in the end because we are too myopic and stupid to select the truly performant as leadership. Time will answer this questions, I guess.

  48. Re:Rather because "numerous studies" by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    We only know Woz's name, because of Jobs.

    The opposite may also be the case. We'll never know: God doesn't let us play with his sims. Something tells me Jobs would eventually wind his way into a similar industry and make some waves, but perhaps not as much because Apple gave him early experience to learn from. Jobs had to stumble around a bit before he found his footing: reality is a strong teacher. Without the early Apple experience, he may still be in the stumbling stage.

  49. They Need Each Other by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The wise charismatic leader always partners with, employs or takes the humble as his or hers second or in the staff. They balance out each other and fill the roles required to inspire the masses for the goals systematically identified by the humble.

  50. Sheep by McLae · · Score: 2

    Follow me, God has shown the way!

  51. No, we are simply lazy by slew · · Score: 1

    Rationally, nobody wants to be a leader because it is too much extra work and because big decisions generally have the worse predictability of the outcome. The expected return on investment for being a leader generally sucks. Look at who volunteers to be president of small community organizations and scale that up. Since most rational people are lazy and only look for good ROIs, nobody rational wants to become a leader.

    Of course if you are delusional, you might want to become a leader. We might be better off following the humble delusional, but since most lazy folks think they are humble (even if they aren't), we tend to hate that which is most like ourselves, so most lazy folks don't want to follow a humble person because we often project our own faults and fears on to that such person because of course we could be that person. So by process of elimination, we follow the charismatic delusional and project our hopes and dreams on to that person.

    It's not a surprise that the average outcome is better because humble people are generally more paranoid and the paranoid often survive better in average conditions, but if you want to either succeed greatly or go down in flames, why not follow a charismatic delusional? The big winners write the history books (or in this case randomly survived the cataclysms that formed the evolutionary choke points in our history).

  52. Charisma, not Narcisism by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    Problem is that charisma is a good way to charm people into being disposed to believing you (look at Jonestown), narcissism means that they will use if to their advantage.

    I think that is the problem with the argument as it is presented. Nobody thinks "lets hire a charismatic narcissist" they think "lets hire someone with charisma". The two are not the same and it is entirely possible to have some with charisma without the narcissism and vice versa. The problem is that the charisma can hide the narcissism until it's too late and you have already hired/voted for them.

  53. Re:Rather because "numerous studies" by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

    Without Wozniak, Jobs would have just hired Jay Miner instead.

  54. Anathema by ronmon · · Score: 1

    The best campaigners are not the best leaders. It is a completely different skill set. Trump is the Boaty McBoatface of U.S. Presidential elections.

    1. Re:Anathema by hduff · · Score: 1

      The political pre-election process is gamed in favor of popularity over substance. It's then no surprise about the leaders we get.

      --
      "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
  55. Not made that experience by Dirk+Becher · · Score: 1

    This may be true in regard to the U. S. presidental election, but at least in my country (germany) pretty much every vote from the last years was some kind of humility/cosmopolitarism contest. Not quite south east asian level but jovialism and/or arrogance have become pretty much a death flag.

  56. Narcissistic leaders are the second best. by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    "The best rulers are those the people barely know, after that those they love after that those they despise and fear."
    - Konfuzius (paraphrased)

    In an ideal society the leaders are barely known. But we don't have that yet - that would be Star Trek or something. ... So in broken or non-optimal societies people lean towards the popular.

    As far as humble leaders go, I think Uruguay, Buthan and Germany are good examples.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
    1. Re:Narcissistic leaders are the second best. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't ever suggest Merkel was humble...

  57. One word by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

    Advertising

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  58. Nah, we're good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do you mean? We didnt vote Hillary

  59. Because . . . by hduff · · Score: 1

    Given that the average person is not too bright and half of the population is dumber than that, it's no wonder that pretty, shiny, charismatic appeals to people.

    --
    "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
  60. EditorDhabravinder sucks donkery balls by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    The humity, exuded by these leaders, can be contagious.

    One, neither comma should be there. Two, humity isn't a word.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  61. Humility by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's not that we fall for the narcissistic types, rather the humble among us typically do not seek positions of power.
    ( They wouldn't be very humble if they did now would they ? )

    Our elections are akin to being asked to hammer in a nail, but only given a choice between a screwdriver, a corkscrew or a hacksaw to get it done :|
    They're certainly all tools, but none one of them are really suitable for the task at hand. ( Don't you dare ask for the proper tool. )

    Then, when we're forced to finally make a choice, it's always the same bullshit from both sides of the fence for years.
    " You chose to go with X ! See how poorly it's doing ? It was obviously a poor choice. You should have chosen Y or Z ! "

    The best tools for the job are out there, we're simply not given the option to select one based on how our system is setup.

    1. Re:Humility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You misspelled "humity".

    2. Re:Humility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do the people as a whole have the intelligence, experience, intuition and judgement needed to select the best tool? Do they have the motive to select the best tool for the STATED job? Are they selecting the best tool to achieve the unstated goal even though it conflicts with the STATED goal?

      I see this all the time at work. An example: Many have a good idea how to do things in Excel. Few have a good idea how to do things in Access or SQL. Since they 'know' Excel but not Access or SQL, they will sabotage a database, explain how exporting to Excel will never work, etc. After explaining the requirements in their own terms, they want a database - easy to use data entry for end users, must record who entered what and when, can't change stuff after it is entered, easy-button reporting in real time, etc.,... What goes unsaid is the requester doesn't want anyone else to be able to change data after the fact - sounds like a business politics issue rather than a technical issue. Psychologically, they cannot handle being unable to change formatting (colors, fonts, etc.,...) without having to wait - sounds like a person problem rather than a technical problem. They cannot handle not being in real-time control of the 'system' and react as if threatened when presented with something that fits all their stated needs. They want us to change Excel so that it is the best way to achieve their own stated goals. They know enough about Excel to use it as a tool to make themselves look effective and important but that's about it. They don't know enough about Excel to keep it from imploding under its own weight. Excel is not a graphic design tool and it is not the best choice as a substitute word processor because you know how to change column widths but don't understand or are not happy with Word's auto indenting.

      The result more than a few times, has been spreadsheets that grow to 150 MB and take about 30 minutes or so to open if they do at all. They got the unstated goal of the control they wanted but none of the stated goals they asked for. Other times, when other people made decision, other solutions were picked - low and behold, when the stated goal and the actual goal match, things work just fine.

      As long companies and constituents keep paying/voting for employees that do this kind of crap, nothing will change. As long as employees and voters continue to pick their 'tools' with crap reasoning, nothing will change. We have the option of picking better tools, we just don't. Most of the reasons are not rational from a collective viewpoint. Few of the reasons are even rational from an individual viewpoint. They reasons just aren't rational at all.

    3. Re:Humility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've learned from Muslim friends that imams are thrust into leadership. the more they object to shouldering the responsibility, the more sure the community is about making the right choice. anyone who would campaign to be a leader is immediately recognized as a fraud - at least in terms of leadership.

  62. Re:Rather because "numerous studies" by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Jay Miner seemed like the kind who wanted a real salary, which Jobs couldn't pay. Woz saw the microcomputer biz as more of a hobby. It's why he wouldn't let Jobs slice out the Apple expansion slots to save some dimes.

  63. premise of the story is faulty by scatbomb · · Score: 1

    People don't choose charismatic or narcissictic leaders because of those traits, they choose leaders who are confident, act decisively, and have ideologies that lead to predictable behavior that they themselves agree with. "Humity" (sic) is OK, but if they lack confidence etc, it's not enough to make a good leader.

  64. Who is "we" ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I surely don't fall for charismatic narcissists. I love them because they're easily manipulated. Vis-a-vis Trump.

  65. We do evolve by moorley · · Score: 1

    So the question that is of interest to me is, when and how will we change?

    It is obvious to me that we can't continue to trust leaders and hierarchical systems. They don't scale. As our population increases the death toll that can be attributed to any leader by whatever matrix you use to decide if they are good or bad, will continue to rise. Our world is more complex than any one person can understand and to enforce our abstract wishes on how it should be are childish. Even now our leaders focus on outcomes that they can't control or guarantee rather than small changes to how we do things based on the values we share.

    Example:
    You can't eliminate poverty. But you can find what contributes to poverty, or a few things we can do to address it, and then move on from there.
    You can't eliminate war and strife, but you can slowly make changes to our culture so that we can someday appreciate what it takes to have peace and trade instead.

    So the question that comes to mind is if we are going to grow up as a culture or species, what will that look like? and how can I participate?

    The key difference for me is I don't need someone to lead, I just need someone to fulfill their role as coordination or logistics. It's one role of many. A leader is about ego, and is not a job function I truly understand nor wish for a world that needs such things. For a leader I give them my trust and admiration in return for survival and identity. If my survival and right to exist is not, TRULY, at stake then I have no need for such a transaction.

    If we keep focusing on a world of scarcity and need, then leaders are inherent. If you instead focus on a world that has enough for all (and we can do this) then leaders, the heirs of kings and queens, are no longer relevant. I don't need a leader who is the biggest bastard on the block, I don't need a leader at all.

    --
    "Don't fear death... fear not living..." -me :)
    1. Re:We do evolve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't eliminate poverty. But you can find what contributes to poverty, or a few things we can do to address it, and then move on from there.

      That is a very American perspective. :)

      In fact, there are some countries in the world, such as Denmark, where poverty is basically a solved problem. That's not to say that no one is poor in Denmark. But essentially no one is trapped in poverty in the same sense as, say, the Philippines, Mexico or the United States. In Denmark, if you're a person of ordinary ability who's willing to do an honest day's work, you'll be able to earn enough to support yourself and your family simply but comfortably. No one in Denmark worries about their children going hungry, or not being able to afford college, or not having enough retirement savings because such things are provided to everyone. That's not to say that no one in Denmark would like to have a bit more cash to, say, buy a fancier car than the neighbor. But people in Denmark aren't laying awake in the wee hours of the morning with cold fear in the pits of their stomach wondering how they're going to feed their families - as opposed to, say, the "coal miners" in Pennsylvania.

      No, in the modern era, poverty is very much a choice - that a country makes collectively.

  66. What is "a" company? Whis "the long run"? by tanstaaf1 · · Score: 1

    This is kind of a poorly formed study - and post. "humble, unassuming people as leaders improve the performance of a company in the long run." All companies? How do they improve performance specifically, and how is that measured? What is the long run? In the "long run" companies get bigger and more bureaucratic; but is that an appropriate size and behavior for a startup? I could go on, but this is a poorly formed topic for discussion.

  67. Obligatory Lao-Tzu by stilbon · · Score: 1

    'The reason why rivers and seas are able to be lords over a hundred mountain streams, is that they know how to keep below them. That is why they are able to reign over all the mountain streams.'

  68. that's a big "if" by superwiz · · Score: 1

    If pink rabbits taste better than chicken, why aren't eating them? When a leader seems weak, the top management is not "collaborating". It's involved in constant intrigue and politics and infighting. A strong leader is more clear about setting objectives to achieve because he states them as his personal goals. A weak (humble) leader allows himself to be ran instead of running the place himself. This allows for de facto leaders to emerge, but they are almost certainly the ones who are charismatic and narcissistic personalities running the place.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  69. Manipulation and all that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When it comes to leading a nation, a humble person would fall prey to manipulation or outright threats, and become little more than a puppet for whoever actually had the most testosterone. Therefore, we try to elect leaders who can (metaphorically speaking) beat up the other guys, so that our vote is not for nothing. Same thing applies on the world stage. Our leader has to be able to stand up to any other world leader.

    It's as simple as that.

    1. Re:Manipulation and all that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When it comes to leading a nation, a humble person would fall prey to manipulation...

      Essentially by definition, a humble person will have a more accurate view of reality. So they will be less easily manipulated. If Putin tells Trump that he wants to be friends because Trump is just so great and wonderful, Trump is likely to believe it. On the other hand, a humble person would be like, "OK, what's your real motive here?"

      ...or outright threats, and become little more than a puppet for whoever actually had the most testosterone.

      Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. Let's say a humble person was president of the USA, what would you threaten them with? His own death? If he's humble, he won't see himself as so important that his death would matter all that much. Trump, on the other hand, almost certainly sees himself as so important that he would send every single other American to their death in order to save his own life.

      Therefore, we try to elect leaders who can (metaphorically speaking) beat up the other guys, so that our vote is not for nothing. Same thing applies on the world stage.

      This is key. Most American's wanted a president who would beat up on poor foreigners in order to make Americans richer. Imagine that the school bully offers to help you beat up the nerdy kid and take his lunch money. It's a lot like that.

      Our leader has to be able to stand up to any other world leader.

      If you were, say, Singaporean and you were willing to face the reality that the main thing preventing mainland China from annexing your country was the USA and it's nukes, then the main thing you would care about was whether your leader could kiss up to Trump enough to stay in the USA's good graces and continue to receive its protection.

      On the other hand, if you're American then how is standing up to other leaders even an issue? I mean, sure, the USA couldn't take on the entire rest of the world. But any country that made a serious attempt to invade and occupy the USA would almost certainly be utterly destroyed in a matter of days.

      Let's be real. All this business with the USA pretending to be a victim is really just excuses for beating up on poor people in distant parts of the world so certain Americans can get even richer.

  70. I see you must be charismatic by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    It requires a special level of idiocy to equate "having the magic numbers for the big bang instant sunshine things" with "least harm".

    I can see you yourself must be "blessed" with much charisma. At least I hope so since you seem to have little else...

    The "magic numbers" mean pretty much nothing. They are just another example of exactly what I am saying - giving someone with charisma the illusion of power. Even if someone were to use the "magic numbers" there are layers of real, non-charismatic, people in e way between using the numbers and an actual launch.

    It really is a shame when people do not educate themselves as to how systems work before positing misuse.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:I see you must be charismatic by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Even if someone were to use the "magic numbers" there are layers of real, non-charismatic, people in e way between using the numbers and an actual launch.

      Really? They have the authority to just disobey a direct order if they don't like the sound of it? I guess in your alternate reality they specifically choose awkward people who question everything for these roles, rather than ones who'll just do as they're fucking well told because goddamit it's not a request.

      Why bother having a CIC & all that code nonsense at all.. Just more big government bureaucracy. Let each individual sub commander, B52 pilot etc use his own judgement. I mean clearly they're all aware of the whole global situation and have time to weigh the pros & cons. *eyeroll*.

      It really is a shame when people do not educate themselves as to how systems work before positing misuse.

      Anybody know how to straighten the needle on an irony meter?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  71. Gambling As A Job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are ways of turning gambling into a job. Don't laugh, I'm being serious! This isn't about itinerant gamblers, losing fortunes and living the life of Riley until they have lost everything and everyone.

    No, there are genuine gambling strategies that shift the odds away from the House and towards the gambler. They don't shift the odds dramatically but it's enough. I've seen documentaries on them and it's not a fly-by-night "system" that is bullshit. This is real.

    The problem with the real gambling strategies? You have to view it as a job. You have to put the time in and you have to follow the system. No getting cute or fancy, you are playing the odds and you have to be disciplined. It's a real job. It turns out that it pays something like $20/hour on average, so enough to live on but you certainly aren't getting rich.

    The people who have studied these strategies have some interesting things to say about the psychology of gambling, and how these gambling strategies are like the opposite of that. In short, most people gamble for the thrill. They are attracted to the promise of a big win and they are irresistibly drawn to try to get the big win. The problem is that big wins are rare.

    The House knows this. And the gambling strategies? They know it too. It turns out that the real money to be made with a gambling strategy is in lots of small wins. It's not thrilling, not sexy and you won't draw a crowd around a blackjack table for it. However if you want to make money at gambling, reliably and repeatedly, this is what you must do.

  72. Ask Darwin... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's nice to see a lot posters looking for a Darwinian explanation.
    Try this one:
    Years ago I read a study about baboon societies. The alpha baboon got wealth (the best food), status, and sex, and other benefits. They also on average had a shorter life-span as they were subject to being killed off by the next alpha male. Frequently defending your status as an alpha wears you down.
    What are the benefits not just to the alpha males genes, but to the tribe. Counter-intuitively it may decrease the 'damage' apha males inflict on the tribe, as they are busy defending themselves, and likely have a short period of dominance.
    It maybe one of the reasons the USA has been such a successful experiment. With the exception of FDR, our Presidents have been limited to 8 years.

  73. Leader by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

    I don't doubt that the premise of this article is true - that by objective measures the humble lead better. but...

    1) To be leader you have to be elected, if the charismatic-narcissists are better at getting elected then that is at least one aspect in which they make better leaders

    2) I'm not sure people want leaders in top positions, they tend to want people to affirm their pre-formed opinions and act as if they were a surrogate for the voter. The last thing they want them to do is lead in the sense of make a case for changing the voter's opinion.

    3) I think people see themselves as the leader, and want to pick someone to represent them that they most aspire to be (from the usually poor list of available candidates). If they had to invent Tyler Durden would they pick a humble man - nope...

    --
    Nullius in verba
  74. Standardized Testing by ctrlshift · · Score: 1

    Our leader selection process has nothing to do with actual leadership abilities. It selects for a person's capacity to talk a big game, and that's about it.

  75. We? by Simulant · · Score: 1

    Speak for yourself.

  76. What's humity? by surd1618 · · Score: 1

    How can I exude it?

  77. Darth Helmut Says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Because Good is dumb"

  78. Dumb question. Obvious answer: by Narcocide · · Score: 1

    Because charismatic narcissists make the best usurpers.

  79. Selection bias by VikingNation · · Score: 1

    The leaders in organizations have the responsibility of hiring and succession planning for the organization. Leaders tend to see themselves in up and coming protégés and they will select these individuals to groom as future leaders to take over the organization. A healthy organization will invest in training for leaders and have hiring boards to encourage diversity of experience, temperament, etc.

  80. it's easier for them by Goldsmith · · Score: 1

    I think enough people here have worked in the kind of positions charismatic narcissists tend to inhabit to understand this. If you're the kind of person who thinks it's possible, even likely, that people around you have better ideas than you do, being responsible for deciding which idea is best is difficult. (If you really think it's easy to lead a group of people, guess what kind of leader you are...)

    Gathering ideas from people around you and making sure credit goes to those people is the right way to run any organization, large or small. But it's much easier to shoot for action without argument, if you have the smile to get it. I think the result is that humble leaders don't last as long, they burn out or decide to change their focus more often.

  81. It happened at lest once in the near past. by Neuronwelder · · Score: 1

    Jimmy Carter was elected and was humble. He even put up Solar Cells on the White House. They were promptly take down when Reagan took office.

    1. Re:It happened at lest once in the near past. by sabbede · · Score: 1
      He was also charismatic and incredibly self-confident. Even now he says he wouldn't have done anything different if he had a do-over for his term.

      The simple fact is that charisma and confidence are necessary for succeeding in electoral politics. Narcissists are incredibly self-confident, and the very self-confident often appear to be narcissists. I don't see how solar panels = humility.

  82. s/serving/swerving by epine · · Score: 1

    This is actually calibrated behaviour. I click "submit" when the odds of noticing such a mistake fall below the bar of justifying the extra time investment.

    And then sometimes I spot it right as the afterimage fades.

  83. Three Types of Personality in the Workforce by mattmarlowe · · Score: 1

    Maybe it's just me, but I've come to group most workers into three categories:
    - Manipulators - Those good at generating images, focusing attention, turning strangers into friends, and figuring out exactly what others want. These are the perfect sales, marketing, and investor relations workers. Given that sales, marketing, and investor relations are so critical to future business projects and the ability of companies to survive....they're who you generally find as CEO's.
    - Planners - Those who can concentrate and focus on the bigger long term picture, discerning truth from advertising, and who can imagine new solutions for existing problems, and deal with very sophisticated technical projects. These make good engineers and who you may find creating new business startups. Much of the slashdot audience would probably categorize themselves into this group. However, at a certain point, most businesses find that they can't grow enough revenue, attract enough new investors, or keep employees happy with these people in charge. So, they end up hiring the manipulators into the top jobs.
    - Followers - For whatever reason, there are a lot of people who don't really care so much about their job or what it accomplishes, as long as they can feel good about themselves and have good friends and a life outside of work. These people would refuse any major leadership role if offered. Work is just a way for them to accomplish other things. You'll find a lot of high end service people in this category - doctors, etc.

  84. Re:Rather because "numerous studies" by n329619 · · Score: 1

    We only know Woz's name, because of Jobs.

    No. You only knew Jobs because of Apple's marketing.

  85. Errrm, ... because they're charismatic? by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    Just a wild guess here ...

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  86. Pretty damned obvious. What's Charisma? by sabbede · · Score: 1

    It's the answer, that's what it is. Combine it with the aura of self-confidence inherent to narcissism (or mistaken for narcissism) and that's the bloody obvious answer. Confidence + Charisma = People listen to you. That, people listening to you, is the key to leadership.

  87. "I t'ain't dumbz, I'z ig'nint!". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because we're idiots.

    No we're not, we're just ignorant.

    Nope. we are only ignorant until someone tries to teach us. At that point we are either educated, stupid, or intentionally stupid.

    "Ignorant" has simply been used as "acceptable stupid" for a long time. Just like "Intellectually incurious" was the hot term during the Bush years..
    It is not often that it gets properly used these days.
    But what about when it does? Yes, this still often indicates a problem. What are you allowed to be ignorant of with most of the world's knowledge in your pocket? Sure the trivial things like "Naruto characters" are probably OK. "How to change a flat tier or cook.. yeah, not so much.

    Most people are idiots. That is how it worked out.
    The brain is the most glucose hungry organ in the body. For most of our evolution calories were incredibly valuable. You do not waste them or spend them when you can avoid spending them (evolution has made almost all life fundamentally lazy). So as a species we have mostly feelers, those who feel about things. Emotion if fast, cheap, and easy.
    Thinking on the other hand burns up calories and like body building is really hard until you are used to how hard it is. So all we need are the occasional thinker and "Monkey see, monkey do" will take care of the rest.
    We have words for people who do not think or almost never think. These words are not nice.

    Want to be president? Keep the public "feeling" with their brains locked in the "off" position. We are the same dumb "emotional mob" that the Romans talked about 2000 years ago.

  88. We are hardwired for finding mates not leaders by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We are not hardwired to optimize the management strategy of our Fortune 500 company. We are hardwired to compete for mates. A related question would ask why men make more money for being taller? https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/05/the-financial-perks-of-being-tall/393518/

  89. Humility by Doctrinsograce · · Score: 1

    Would a truly humble person ever accept a leadership role? Just sayin.

  90. Re:Rather because "numerous studies" by surd1618 · · Score: 1

    Maybe instead of Apple we'd have a diverse collection of smaller computer companies working off of common chipsets and creating computers that better fit a lot of niche roles than the ubiquitous generic winbloze box has.

  91. Specific instance of general question by eric_harris_76 · · Score: 1

    Looks interesting, especially if the article actually addresses either this specific instance or the general problem of: "Why do people in groups make bad group decisions".

    We're never going to be done talking about the 2016 presidential election -- and the nomination process that gave voters two such lousy choices -- are we?

    --
    There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
  92. Because America is a shitshow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Next question, please.