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Systemd-Free Devuan Linux Announces A Second Release Candidate (devuan.org)
An anonymous reader quotes The Register:
Devuan Linux has released its second release candidate... A 1.0.0 release candidate emerged just under a fortnight ago and today the developers announced Devuan Jessie 1.0.0 RC2. New in this cut of the code is a systemd-free version of network-manager, new versions of reportbug, desktop-base and xfce4-panel. GNOME, KDE, and Cinnamon have been removed from tasksel, but can still be installed although they "are known to suffer from some glitches due to the lack of systemd."
The Devuan web site says this series of release candidates "marks an important milestone towards the sustainability and the continuation of Devuan as a universal base distribution." And their announcement describes Devuan as "the Debian that was and could have been. Our goal is to provide a viable and sustainable alternative...a new path, nurtured with your help and support."
The Devuan web site says this series of release candidates "marks an important milestone towards the sustainability and the continuation of Devuan as a universal base distribution." And their announcement describes Devuan as "the Debian that was and could have been. Our goal is to provide a viable and sustainable alternative...a new path, nurtured with your help and support."
Graybeards yelling at clouds
Like... I understand not wanting all the cruft that comes with systemd, but as an init system it's absolutely fabulous! I know Debian tends to be the bastion of never change anything ever and I'm hardly surprised that "Debian makes decision to change something" was met with hostility. Regardless I think this whole thing is a bit ridiculous. Rather than forking ALL OF DEBIAN so you can keep sysvinit, why not fork systemd to use only the init? Hell, you could even have it use the horrible sysvinit script system if you like!
I'm glad to see Devuan gearing up for a release. While Debian is not my favored flavor of linux, and I personally don't see any problems with systemd, I also recognize that this is exactly why different distros exist: we all have different needs.
So cheers to the Devuan team on this upcoming release, and best wishes for many more.
I hope this will help end the systemd "debate". I get a little tired seeing the constant re-treading of which one is better. If you like systemd or don't care, you have distro options. If you don't like systemd and DO care, you also have at least one distro to choose from. Use the tech that makes most sense for you.
GNOME, KDE, and Cinnamon have been removed from tasksel, but can still be installed although they "are known to suffer from some glitches due to the lack of systemd
Thing is, I consider KDE the only desktop GUI worth using anymore. (Notice I didn't say "only Linux GUI worth using". Haven't found a better one on another OS either). The way these things tend to unfold over time is the "glitches" become "bugs" and the "bugs" become "doesn't work at all without heavy merging work" and that becomes "impossible to keep working without people dedicated to the task".
I wonder if this is going to be a viable thing to do over time as dependencies on systemd in upstream software become deeper.
Do the NVidia hardware drivers work OK on this? I'm wondering if my games collection would be OK on it. The open source graphics drivers aren't suitable for modern games, so it's closed source or bust for that. One thing about Ubuntu is they make getting the gfx drivers and keeping them up to date effortless.
Comments on the RC1
Install for the default version works well
installing the kde version was not available as install option but needs
# apt-get install task-kde-desktop
wicd integration works, but NetworkManager does not
some issues on handling permissions smb4k does not work as normal user but needs to be run using kdesudo
I am really looking forward to use it on all my machines.
systemd surely is a NSA work
Going to test RC2....
GNOME, KDE, and Cinnamon have been removed from tasksel, but can still be installed although they "are known to suffer from some glitches due to the lack of systemd."
Cannot say anything on GNOME, but KDE (both KDE4 and Plasma 5) run fine in Slackware. As for Cinnamon, there's also an excellent distribution for Slackware, Cinnamon Slackbuilds . There are also implementations for Xfce, MATE, Lumina and LX-Qt, all up to date and fully functional. No glitches due to lack of systemd at all.
I'm typing this on a Slackware64-current box, using the latest KDE Plasma with no trace of systemd.
Since Slackware manages to avoid systemd like the plague even to this day, using modern desktop environments in a systemd-free environment should be no problem.
-- Look to the Rose that blows about us--"Lo, Laughing," she says, "into the World I blow..."
The only Devuan install I've done was a fresh install. I'm using it as a multimedia PC in my entertainment center and it's working fine.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
For those interested in a polished out-of-the-box distro that does not use systemd, MXLinux is based on Debian Jessie and defaults to sysVinit. I'm a fan.
Yes, likewise. I have Devuan installed on a low-power Athlon X2 3800+ system with 8GB RAM and 8GB flash (it was lying around) and I'm molding it into a CarPC. Would have just used Debian if not for systemd. Kodi, Navit. Works a treat, except that I got corruption with the nvidia driver. That might just be me running into the limits of my PicoPSU, though. Nouveau works fine.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
MATE works just fine without systemd
I installed Devuan on a laptop and will probably expand it to my other systems over time. I installed 1.0 and the absence of NetworkManager was a problem, so it's nice to see that this new version includes it.
Bruce Perens.
From my (admittedly casual) perusal of these followups that is what it seems like. Come on, who is willing to say:
I'm pro-systemd and I'm proud!
and sign with their slashdot monicker.
In case anyone is curious, I would like to avoid systemd myself, and I resent that it's getting hard to do that. As for why I'm opposed, I don't have any facts I can cite as clinching arguments. I do see mysterious things happening on my latest Ubuntu and Mint distros that I don't know the cause of, but they don't happen on slackware. As an old time Unix guy (going back to BSD 4.2), the whole principle of systemd, not having init scripts that can be broken down and fixed with an editor, just seems wrong to me, and the claims I've seen about the advantages of systemd seem to have a suspicious amount of hand-waving, and a lot of "we know what we're doing you ignorant, backward luddite twerp!" to them. That's all.
In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice they're different. (Yogi Berra & A. Einstein)
> Rather than forking ALL OF DEBIAN so you can keep sysvinit, why not fork systemd to use only the init?
That's the entire problem with systemd - it forgot it was supposed to be an init. Systemd has consumed more and more of the OS, and in ways that require *applications* to have dependencies on systemd.
If it were just a bad init system, people would complain, but most would deal with it. Some would use a different init. Systemd doesn't work that way. Like a particularly nasty rootkit, you have to replace half the system to get rid of systemd.
Only RedHat derived distributions or Ubuntu are worth using for any serious work.
Idiot
Speaking as someone who has no real skin in the game either way I just don't understand the point of systemd or what benefit it gives me as a user who has a Linux server to run some basic services...
They say it boots quicker. So when you or I have to reboot (as I do about once every 3 months) we won't have time to arrange our chair nicely while it boots. That's it, I think.
Is anyone using launchd on Linux? If I recall correctly it's modern like systemd, but primarily in it focused like it should be.
Systemd is certainly a radical change. It takes over everything. It completely throws away POSIX, and the UNIX philosophy. Systemd changes everything that made Linux, Linux.
And for what? I see no substantial improvements. Just the opposite. I see a less stable system, more difficult to use, everything is hidden from the users.
Systemd may benefit Red Hat, but it does not benefit anybody else.
JMHO, of course.
Everything that is great about systemd, is even better in ms-windows.
Want an OS that is controlled by a single for-profit corporation? A corporation that cares more about it's shareholders, than end users.
Want everything hidden from the users? Everything in binary.
Want an OS that has all kinds of mystery crap going on in the background?
Want a less stable OS, and mysterious changes forced on you all the time?
Want an OS designed by people who hate the UNIX philosophy, and have deep contempt for UNIX grey beards?
MS-Windows has better drivers, better graphics, way more apps - especially games. MS-Windows apps are way more standard.
"Debian violated it's charter when it made the systemd move. No if's, and's, or butt'$; at this point in time, Debian is mimicking RHat ..."
Precisely!
All knowledgeable people dumped RedHat like the pile of stinking poo it had become very long ago already for changing to be commercialised, non-compatible, and dumping Unix philosophy.
Debian essentially did the same with their accepting systemd.
they didn't land on the moon either... it s big conspiracy
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
I was thinking about the James Brown song "Say It Loud! I'm Black and I'm Proud!" when I put in the "I'm pro-systemd and I'm proud" remark. Maybe I should have included the "Say It Loud!" line. Then again, how many of y'all are old enough to remember that song.
For myself, I wanted to show honestly my position that I'm wary of systemd but not an expert and not trying to present myself as somebody who 'knows'. But one of the things that makes me wary is that while a lot of people who make anti-systemd posts do so as themselves (or at least not as ACs), the ones who were pro-systemd were ACs, and that seemed kinda fishy to me.
Anybody who takes a position one way or the other is going to catch some flames, and I can see how, in a forum where most people are against systemd (like slashdot) maybe pro-systemd folks figure it's not worth all the flaming to say what they think. But some did post in response to my call and I appreciate that.
In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice they're different. (Yogi Berra & A. Einstein)
So you're basically saying that systemd is the "Lotus Notes" of init?