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Germany Sets New National Record With 85 Percent of Its Electricity Sourced From Renewables (digitaltrends.com)

Germany was able to set a new national record for the last weekend of April with 85 percent of all electricity consumed in the country being produced from renewables -- wind, solar, biomass, and hydroelectric power. Digital Trends reports: Aided by a seasonal combination of windy but sunny weather, during that weekend the majority of Germany's coal-fired power stations weren't even operating, while nuclear power stations (which the country plans to phase out by the year 2022) were massively reduced in output. To be clear, this is impressive even by Germany's progressive standards. By comparison, in March just over 40 percent of all electricity consumed in the country came from renewable sources. However, while the end-of-April weekend was an aberration, the hope is that it won't be for too much longer. According to Patrick Graichen of the country's sustainability-focused Agora Energiewende Initiative, German renewable energy percentages in the mid-80s should be "completely normal" by the year 2030.

256 of 404 comments (clear)

  1. Not bad by Lennie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    10 or maybe even more years ago, Germany government was funding renewable energy production to get it to a mass production level, since a couple of years they are funding energy storage.

    Anyone want to complain how it's not working ?

    --
    New things are always on the horizon
    1. Re:Not bad by Lennie · · Score: 1

      Interesting, it took 5 minutes for this comment to even show up ?

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    2. Re:Not bad by Lennie · · Score: 1

      The reason I even did was because I posted an other comment:

      https://hardware.slashdot.org/...

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    3. Re:Not bad by AHuxley · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Germany imports its power. Germany likes to tell the world it does not import other nations "nuclear" power.
      Lots of energy imports but not from other nations nuclear producers. Other nations nuclear power is consumed as produced in their own nations.
      A lot of energy is also passed around the EU too. So that all changes depending on the count and destination nation and how the media presents the energy use.
      Germany also needs to ensure its PV capacity keeps growing. When the sun is out and the wind is blowing its really positive news.
      Then the pride in no nuclear. All that good PR covers for electrical imports.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    4. Re:Not bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Germany indeed imports power. But it also exports power. A lot. Actually a lot more than it imports. In 2016 it exporte 55,5 TWh more than it imported.

      Source: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/153533/umfrage/stromimportsaldo-von-deutschland-seit-1990/

    5. Re:Not bad by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Germany is not nearly finished with its transition. It is expected to be nuclear free by around 2023. This news is just showing that they are well on their way to that goal, with another 5 years to go before we can really judge the outcome.

      If you go back 5 or 10 years on Slashdot you can see hoards of idiots claiming that Germany can't do this and will become a third world country with intermittent power and will massively increase coal dependence and is headed for the stone age. Some predicted that only the super rich will be able to afford electricity. Well, none of that has happened and they have already reached a point well beyond what many thought was even possible, and are continuing to make progress towards their goal.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    6. Re:Not bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      10 or maybe even more years ago, Germany government was funding renewable energy production to get it to a mass production level, since a couple of years they are funding energy storage.

      Anyone want to complain how it's not working ?

      You can't have what Germany has without the heavy hand of government.
      Something that is anathema to you american rednecks and hillbillies.
      Especially to those in both chambers of Congress.

    7. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Germany is a net exporter and exports about 1/3rd of its energy production.
      At night we don't need solar energy.
      Germany is to big, to have 'no wind'.

      Any more questions?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    8. Re:Not bad by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      AC try How Electricity Became a Luxury Good (Sept 04, 2013)
      http://www.spiegel.de/internat...

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    9. Re:Not bad by blkhawk · · Score: 1

      the article is a quite accurate depiction of the mess. It doesn't feel like much has changed since 2013.

    10. Re:Not bad by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      Anyone want to complain how it's not working ?

      Sure, I will. Electric power in Germany is more than twice as expensive as it is in America. That is because the costs of all the subsidies are pushed onto the consumer in what is effectively a regressive tax. Maybe what they are doing has some long term benefits, but considering that more than half of every electric bill goes to subsidise the renewables and the politically driven nuke closures, by many criteria it is "not working".

      So what are they getting at such an enormous cost? This "85%" figure is a statistical fluke. Most days Germany gets 45% of their electric generation from coal, and 26% from lignite or "brown coal", the world's filthiest fuel. Overall, Germany's electricity generation produces nearly as much CO2 per kw-hr as America. There was no good reason to shut down their nukes, as they were already running and already fueled. Nearly all the cost of a nuke is in the construction, and while building new nukes is economically questionable, it is silly to shut down a stable running plant. If those plants are kept in operation, they could offset nearly all the lignite. Instead they are installing solar panels in the world's second cloudiest location (the Bering Sea is first).

    11. Re:Not bad by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      But it's the only way to get a discussion with an intelligent person!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:Not bad by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      How does that influence it? That's like saying "it won't work because we're not located next to France".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    13. Re:Not bad by Tranzistors · · Score: 2

      Germany is a net exporter and exports about 1/3rd of its energy production. [...] Germany is to big, to have 'no wind'.

      Why is this discussion about imports and exports? Germany is in the EU common market. We might as well have discussed if Saarland is big enought to have wind.

    14. Re:Not bad by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...and me without modpoints...

      Terse and to the point. This, and a million times this.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    15. Re:Not bad by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Germany imports its power.

      Yes and no. Germany exports peak power to other countries during the day. At night, Germany imports base load power from French nukes. The price is higher during the day, so even if Germany imports and exports the same amount of kw-hrs, they still make money.

    16. Re:Not bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Or how about a real one.. They buy electricity from else where but don't count that since they sold renewable while it was in over supply. This really wouldn't work for all of the EU at once. Since then you really would need to store it. And even Germany requires spinning reserves.

    17. Re:Not bad by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Electric power in Germany is more than twice as expensive as it is in America.

      Electric power in the entire world is twice as expensive as it is in America. Petrol and diesel even more so. Don't mistake what makes Germany unique for what actually makes America unique.

    18. Re:Not bad by jiriw · · Score: 3, Funny

      Ah, so it will work here! We're located next to France ... in the Caribbean (Saint Martin) ;) . Nice to know.
      And you guys have Quebec ... that seems almost French. Maybe it'll work out!

    19. Re:Not bad by vyvepe · · Score: 1

      Most of the world does not pay 0.0688 EUR/kWh as green energy subsidy: https://www.cleanenergywire.or...

    20. Re:Not bad by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      If you go back 5 or 10 years on Slashdot you can see hoards of idiots claiming that Germany can't do this and will become a third world country with intermittent power and will massively increase coal dependence and is headed for the stone age....

      Whoever said that does not know Germans very well. Outlandish as that statement is, after watching what has unfolded in the US over the last year, I can actually believe that a large number of Foghorn Leghorns with a paid up membership of the Republican party went on the record and said something to that effect.

    21. Re:Not bad by bsolar · · Score: 1

      Countries investing in renewables know perfectly well the strategy means higher prices in the short term, so prices being higher today is actually part of the strategy and by no means evidence it's "not working": it's actually working as planned... I actually think the US should have higher electricity costs to finance a long term energy strategy too, whatever it will be (not necessarily renewables).

      It's my understanding in the US the focus is much more on the short term advantages, but countries investing in new energy strategies are planning with the next 20-30 years in mind, not "next quarter".

    22. Re:Not bad by Kiuas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is expected to be nuclear free by around 2023

      I personally think this is their main problem. Right now the focus of all industrialized nations should be on ditching the use of fossil fuels as rapidly as possible. Nuclear power is an effective way of producing energy to cover up for what cannot be produced by renewables. Right now as they're adamant on ditching nuclear as well, their CO2 emissions are rising and they're unlikely to meet their emission goals, because increased demand has to be met with increased used of natural gas, which, while better than coal for sure, is not as good emissions wise as nuclear.

      Now don't get me wrong, I think nuclear is not a permanent solution so the idea of going fully renewable is good. I just think their implementation and schedule is slightly foolish. If they kept some of the nuclear and used that to provide the rest of what they need, they wouldn't have to use natural gas, or import as much energy from abroad.

      The main reason I stopped voting for the Green party here in Finland was their illogical opposition to the use of nuclear energy as part of a strategy to cut down on emissions. Because the 'green' crowd has absurd fears of nuclear due to radiation they end up favoring policies which in the short-to-mid term drive emissions up, all in the name of protecting the environment.

      The challenges with storing nuclear waste are much easier to solve than the challenges we're going to amass by continuing to release CO2 in current amounts, which is why I don't favor adopting the German approach even though we do have the same goal in mind.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    23. Re:Not bad by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My point exactly. But if you want to compare the situation in Germany to the USA, they also on average use less than half the electricity per person, so that "high" cost of green energy isn't anywhere near as bad as Americans may think.

    24. Re:Not bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      From Austria.

      The French often import electricity, because they have to shutdown their nuclear power plants in winter (not enough water in the rivers) and in summer (water in the river is too warm already).

    25. Re:Not bad by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is an example of the mistake I was trying to warn against making. Yes, in the short term their CO2 emissions are rising, but they are getting where they need to go very rapidly. It's a short term small rise for a long term huge gain.

      As for nuclear, it's mostly about the cost. Rather than throwing more money at nuclear energy (it needs investment to keep going, with new plants and work to extend the life of old ones) they chose to invest that money in renewable generation and storage.

      Rather than saying "we need nuclear because our transition to renewables/storage will be slow", they are saying "we don't need nuclear because our transition will be fast and make it unnecessary before anything new can even be built".

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    26. Re:Not bad by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      People will always complain about taxes. The reality is, the overall cost of living/quality of life in Germany is pretty good. Better than the UK which is building new nuclear and isn't all that committed to renewables (our last PM referred to them as "green crap").

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    27. Re:Not bad by Mashiki · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You know, electricity was cheap in Canada until they started pushing "green energy" too. Then it started going through the roof because everyone get's screwed over paying FiT's and rebates for the programs. Oh yes, just love the $0.188kWh, when it was 0.08kWh at peak. And now with the lying Liberal government here in Ontario, and their attempt to buy people off by taking a massive loan to give a short-term paydown, well electricity rates are going to go through the roof. Watch for the absolute shit-show that's going to happen, especially coupled with the carbon taxes being pushed. People are already at the "electricity or roof over head" stage.

      What do people think is going to happen when prices go up 40% when all this is figured in and wages continue to remain stagnant. Hell over the last 10 years, the CoL in Ontario has gone up ~20% and wages have gone up by around 2-5%. The only place where wages have gone up more is in the public sector(around 10%).

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    28. Re:Not bad by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Sure, I will. Electric power in Germany is more than twice as expensive as it is in America. That is because the costs of all the subsidies are pushed onto the consumer in what is effectively a regressive tax.

      The former is the case in many countries regardless of subsidies, because of taxes and increased input costs. When will Americans realize that we don't have your cheap-ass natural gas?

      There was no good reason to shut down their nukes

      That is the one thing we can agree on.

      Instead they are installing solar panels in the world's second cloudiest location (the Bering Sea is first).

      The economic propriety of this is a function of costs as well. At close to $1/Wp in utility installations, even the world's second cloudiest location can claim a case for solar. So can the slightly more expensive residential installations when the alternative is the retail price of electricity. In the US with your ~$3/Wp, of course it wouldn't make sense.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    29. Re:Not bad by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      It is expected to be nuclear free by around 2023

      I personally think this is their main problem. Right now the focus of all industrialized nations should be on ditching the use of fossil fuels as rapidly as possible. Nuclear power is an effective way of producing energy to cover up for what cannot be produced by renewables. Right now as they're adamant on ditching nuclear as well, their CO2 emissions are rising and they're unlikely to meet their emission goals, because increased demand has to be met with increased used of natural gas, which, while better than coal for sure, is not as good emissions wise as nuclear.

      Now don't get me wrong, I think nuclear is not a permanent solution so the idea of going fully renewable is good. I just think their implementation and schedule is slightly foolish. If they kept some of the nuclear and used that to provide the rest of what they need, they wouldn't have to use natural gas, or import as much energy from abroad.

      The main reason I stopped voting for the Green party here in Finland was their illogical opposition to the use of nuclear energy as part of a strategy to cut down on emissions. Because the 'green' crowd has absurd fears of nuclear due to radiation they end up favoring policies which in the short-to-mid term drive emissions up, all in the name of protecting the environment.

      The challenges with storing nuclear waste are much easier to solve than the challenges we're going to amass by continuing to release CO2 in current amounts, which is why I don't favor adopting the German approach even though we do have the same goal in mind.

      The problem with Nuclear in Germany is and always will be the same.... PR, politics and the spotty history of nuclear power. The industry keeps claiming nuclear is the safest best and most environmentally friendly option out there and yet all the public sees is that we keep getting incidents like Three Mile Island, perpetual SNAFUS like Sellafield, and downright disasters like Chernobyl and Fukushima due to a combination of greedy executives and widespread industry incompetence. Fukushima was actually one of the prime movers behind the decision to ditch nuclear. I'm sure you can write us a lecture on why none of these incidents matter and why nuclear is ultra safe but the public just does not want to know. The way the Germans see it there are safer alternatives than Nuclear such as Fusion in the wings that are beginning to look like they might pan out and since they are on track with track with renewables and energy-to-gas technology which is a very safe fallback plan they decided to ditch Nuclear and the political baggage that comes with it. Seems easier than ramming nuclear down the throats of 80 million people, 65 million of whom don't want to have anything to do with it. If you screw up a nuclear plant in densely populated Germany your most immediate problem is that you just irradiated a couple of million people, if you screw up a wind farm your biggest problem is getting sued by a group of irate investors.

    30. Re:Not bad by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Define "short term" because here in Ontario, we're at ~16 years and the costs just keep going up. It's completely screwed up the electricity system of Ontario as well. So much so that even the government that parroted it for over a decade is say well, we screwed up. You know why they're saying that? Because they're about to go from a majority to a non-party and are trying to salvage themselves.

      Now the kicker is people use less electricity and the prices keep going up, just like how they claimed that "ToD" meters would make electricity cheap. And the costs of it kept going up. This whole idea of paying via FiT and green energy rebates doesn't work and only makes people poorer. Hell it drives businesses out, which means governments need to find new tax bases. So who are the first taxed? Shouldn't be hard for anyone to figure out, but if you need a hint, it's not businesses. And the Federal Liberal Party is pushing for this exact same garbage on Canada.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    31. Re:Not bad by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      :) thats true with so many childish trolls about

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    32. Re:Not bad by Bongo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't understand. What country like Germany can come to run on 90% renewables all year round?

      I think there are desirable principles and beliefs, and there are practical outcomes, and I do not see how we are any closer to that goal.

      I could get on a cycle generator and pedal away for 24 hours and cover 90% of my home energy use that day...and that proves nothing, as it is just a fluke.

      And people talk about storage. Where is all this storage? Are we really better off investing in developing theoretical storage technologies rather than more up-to-date nuclear technologies?

      I don't understand why people are so enamoured of wind and solar. They still ruin the landscape views.

      And I say this as someone who would quite like it if all the city and street and home lights were turned off at night, and we could once again enjoy good starry skies and get some natural sleep in darkness.

      You can make anything work for a short time. "Green" and "renewables" and "clean" are often just adjectives used to make the thing sound pretty. Where is the truly sustainable technology??

      I cannot see how CO2 is the near-civilisation-ending threat but we continue having coal stations in order to try to have time to make renewables and storage work -- that is not someone who has any sense of urgency. Nuclear is the only option. Unfortunately, it just is.

    33. Re:Not bad by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 5, Informative

      They need to do a better job, then? Because once you adjust for purchasing power of different currencies, Germany has about the most expensive electricity in the world (save for a few small island nations). Yes, it's renewable - it also is twice that of their nuclear powered neighbor, France. So kudos, Germany - you've proved that you can occasionally spike high in "renewables" generation for only twice the price of a sane, nuclear power approach!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    34. Re:Not bad by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You know that wind blows at night, right? And Germany has quite a lot of wind. And batteries.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    35. Re:Not bad by ledow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You can achieve almost anything if you're willing to throw enough money and people at it.

      From the Great Pyramids to putting a man on the moon.

      The question to ask is not "Did these people want something and do it?" but "Was what they wanted practical and sensible?"

      They are entirely different questions.

      I could run a country from AA batteries, if I'm allowed to tax everyone and use government money to do it, and people get behind the idea. Whether that's sensible or sustainable is another matter entirely.

    36. Re:Not bad by ls671 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Also in Quebec, it is 97% renewable electricity and Quebec is several times bigger than Germany in area. So they have been deserving a /. article for years I guess...

      https://www.mern.gouv.qc.ca/en...

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    37. Re:Not bad by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You know, electricity was cheap in Canada until they started pushing "green energy" too.

      Electricity was cheap in Australia too before they started pushing green energy. Except green energy had nothing to do with the price. Along with green energy came major infrastructure investments and the decree that we should never again have power outages. The gold plating began.

      Causation vs correlation. A lot has happened in the power generation and transmission business in the past 15 years all over the world.

      What do people think is going to happen when prices go up 40% when all this is figured in and wages continue to remain stagnant.

      They stop running the AC and Heater at the same time? Many other countries have coped just fine, except that where I live prices didn't go up 40% they went up 350%. We are also coping just fine and then were one of the few to avoid a major recession during the crisis. The Canadians are worse than the Americans when it comes to average electricity consumption. Fortunately you're marginally better in actual emissions but you have still a way to go before you start getting an emissions footprint as good as China.

      Maybe it's time prices reflected what you do to the world and then you can start looking for alternatives.

    38. Re:Not bad by Viol8 · · Score: 2

      A typical hysterical reaction against nuclear. Anyone would think coal power stations don't emit radioactive particles. Also didn't anyone tell you that France next door has been producing almost half of its electricity through nuclear power for 50 years?

    39. Re:Not bad by Opportunist · · Score: 1, Informative

      But nobody knew.

      They tried to tell the world, alas they were using some dead language and couldn't be bothered to learn one that's actually used somewhere on the planet.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    40. Re:Not bad by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Quebec is still pretty cheap and beats Germany at electricity from renewables: 97%

      http://www.hydroquebec.com/res...

      https://www.mern.gouv.qc.ca/en...

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    41. Re:Not bad by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      There was an excellent radio documentary I caught from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation by the program Background Briefing concerning the price of electricity. A lot of it had to do with the fact that the companies doing the distribution were being paid cost plus a fixed rate of profit and had little oversight on what they were doing. So lines were going in at the wrong places and the wrong sizes. After all if you massively overbuild a line or put a line in that isn't needed they were still getting paid for it.

      (The Australian Broadcasting Corporation has some great programs on it and the people there should be very proud of their broadcaster.)

      People are so quick to jump on the FIT program and green energy costs here in Ontario. They seem to forget the billion dollars we have to pay off in order to cancel a contract for a couple of gas turbine generating stations to be built so the Liberals could win those seats in an election. In a statement concerning the rate hikes a couple of years ago (2 or 3) raising wages were responsible for approximately half of the hike. There are a lot of people making over $100k in the power companies.

    42. Re:Not bad by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Quebec is a fairly special case, because of the abundance of hydro. Quebec has, on average, 14.8 people per square kilometre, whereas Germany has 229.4. This gives Quebec a much larger area to devote to hydroelectric dams per person. They also have geography that is particularly well suited to hydro power.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    43. Re:Not bad by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Nuclear is the only option. Unfortunately, it just is.

      Curtailing unnecessary economic activity designed to make the rich richer is the only option. It just is.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    44. Re:Not bad by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Green Energy Act came in 2009, 8 years ago. According to Wikipedia, it likely only have a very minimal effect on prices: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      In fact, all available evidence suggests that only around 3% of the cost increase was due to "green" subsidies and FiT, the majority being other incidental costs and guaranteed payments to nuclear generators.

      If you really care about getting energy costs down, you should demand nuclear plants have their guaranteed payment agreements cancelled (likely impossible) and support expansion of renewable energy as quickly as possible.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    45. Re:Not bad by bsolar · · Score: 2
      Ontario's energy problems are not due to the overall idea of renewables being a mistake, they actually pre-date it...

      But, wary of the previous cost overruns at Ontario Hydro, the government decided to outsource the work of building and running the new power plants to the private sector. The private sector would be responsible for cost overruns and other construction problems in exchange for 20-year contracts from the province. The contracts essentially guaranteed that the companies would receive a certain amount of revenue – no matter how much electricity their plants produced (though they would be paid more if the province used their electricity).

      The first major wave of private power plants was fuelled with natural gas. Later plants were tied to the Green Energy Act, which provided lucrative terms for wind and solar plants in a bid to build a renewable-power industry in the province.

      Ultimately, the province built more plants than it actually needed. In 2014, according to the Auditor-General, Ontario had the capacity to produce 30,203 megawatts of power – but only needed 15,959 on an average day. (Even on the busiest day of the year, the province only required 22,774 megawatts.)

      So the province has a massive surplus of generating capacity, but because much of it is tied up in private, 20-year contracts, Ontarians have to pay for all that electricity – whether they need it or not.

      And Ontarians are still paying for the nuclear plants Ontario Hydro built in the eighties and nineties. When Ontario Hydro was broken up, its debt was hived off into an item called the “stranded debt,” which is being paid down by electricity users.

    46. Re:Not bad by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The comparison with going to the moon is an interesting one. Lots of useful technologies came out of that effort, and it helped the US be leaders in things like semiconductors and material science. So although it cost a lot, it also provided a lot of economic benefits that are often hard to measure.

      Germany's transition needs to be seen in that light. It's not just about doing the right thing, it's about reducing longer term costs (replacing/extending the current nuclear plants would be incredibly expensive) and creating new industries and new exports. Germany is now a world leader in renewable energy, a rapidly expanding market with high demand for experienced, skilled operators and advanced designs.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    47. Re:Not bad by ImdatS · · Score: 2

      Sure, I will. Electric power in Germany is more than twice as expensive as it is in America.

      The thing is that we consume a lot less electricity in Germany. You know, houses are built such that you don't need much heating in winter (though, where I live it can get -20 Celsius in winter) and we don't use air conditioning (at least not in our homes). I have yet to find a single home in Germany that has air conditioning.

      When I lived in NYC, the apartment needed constant air conditioning in summer. Since everybody is using air conditioning, the city heats up and you need even more air conditioning. It kind'a sucks (vicious cycle).

      The old houses in Germany never needed air conditioning (some are centuries old) and the new houses have to built such that they never need air conditioning either...

      Just one of many examples...

    48. Re:Not bad by minogully · · Score: 1

      Agreed. And add to this the problem with the aging infrastructure that needed renewal. This is a major factor in the price of electricity in Ontario and was a problem that should have been taken care of when the conservatives were still in power.

    49. Re:Not bad by minogully · · Score: 1

      At first I thought you were a troll, but you've got a point

    50. Re:Not bad by ledow · · Score: 2

      Agreed. I am trying to play devil's advocate too.

      However, if we were to have taken the $110 billion (adjusted for today's money) that Apollo cost, and just put it into semiconductors and materials, would the US have gotten more out of it even if it couldn't have put a man up there. The fact we haven't been back for 50 years does tell you something about the practicality of doing that very thing that we knew even back then.

      Similarly, if we took the money that's going into solar, put it into nuclear, and suffered the lost-jobs of even using entirely outside labour for doing such things, would Germany be better or worse off? I'm pretty sure the difference could easily be spent on fixing an awful lot of other "environmental crimes".

    51. Re:Not bad by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      Quebec if you might have noticed from those links gets the majority of it's energy production from dun, dun, dun....hydro-electric. Because it's incredibly lucky to have the terrain to support it. Hydro-electric is also cheap in Ontario, solar, wind? Not. Especially not at 0.80kWh. But hydro-electric is also only renewable when you've got an upstream water source right.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    52. Re:Not bad by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      Electricity was cheap in Australia too before they started pushing green energy. Except green energy had nothing to do with the price. Along with green energy came major infrastructure investments and the decree that we should never again have power outages. The gold plating began.

      You click on those links? No? Go read them. Green energy is the exact cause of it being so expensive here in Ontario. $0.50kWh+ is what solar and wind are being paid, some are still being paid at $0.80kWh. If you're running solar/wind on a reserve? They pay you at $1.356kWh. So tell me again how that's not costing everyone money when nuclear is running $0.06kWh, and hydro-electric is running at $0.04kWh on the market. That's also not counting that you're paying the subsidies to install those with every single electric bill.

      They stop running the AC and Heater at the same time? Many other countries have coped just fine, except that where I live prices didn't go up 40% they went up 350%.

      You never looked at a thermostat huh? Well you can only run one at a time. Many other countries aren't nearly 10m SQ km are they. Many countries don't go from 30C summers to -45C winters in the same region.

      The Canadians are worse than the Americans when it comes to average electricity consumption.

      You can thank Liberal governments for that one. See back years ago, they started pushing that electric heat was a great idea.

      Maybe it's time prices reflected what you do to the world and then you can start looking for alternatives.

      Perhaps it's time that realize that some parts of the world have more then one season.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    53. Re:Not bad by bsolar · · Score: 4, Insightful
      From the link you provided:

      Électricité de France (EDF) – the country's main electricity generation and distribution company – manages the country's nuclear power plants. EDF is substantially owned by the French government, with around 85% of EDF shares in government hands.

      78.9% of Areva shares are owned by the French public sector company CEA and are therefore in public ownership.

      EDF remains heavily in debt. Its profitability suffered during the recession which began in 2008. It made €3.9 billion in 2009, which fell to €1.02 billion in 2010, with provisions set aside amounting to €2.9 billion.

      The Nuclear industry has been accused of significant cost overruns and failing to cover the total costs of operation, including waste management and decommissioning.

      In 2016, the European Commission assessed that France's nuclear decommissioning liabilities were seriously underfunded, with only 23 billion euros of earmarked assets to cover 74.1 billion euros of expected decommissioning costs.

    54. Re:Not bad by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      People are so quick to jump on the FIT program and green energy costs here in Ontario. They seem to forget the billion dollars we have to pay off in order to cancel a contract for a couple of gas turbine generating stations to be built so the Liberals could win those seats in an election. In a statement concerning the rate hikes a couple of years ago (2 or 3) raising wages were responsible for approximately half of the hike. There are a lot of people making over $100k in the power companies.

      Except that the FIT program and subsidies are directly responsible for those energy costs. Not those "gas power plants" that they cancelled and screwed the province over. See that link above that says "global news" where the provincial Liberal government openly states that it's the "green energy program" aka FIT that's the direct cause of the high electricity prices. Maybe you can enjoy reading this article instead. Or perhaps you can read this one. You know where the blame falls directly on the green energy program and the FIT system. Or perhaps even this one. Yeah, it all falls back to one place. Then you can get into this bullshit.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    55. Re:Not bad by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia is absolute shit in terms of understanding what's going on here, and the article itself is so poorly written that it's silly. Try reading that and you'll get a better understanding. Ontario already has guaranteed rates for nuclear power plants, just a FYI. It adds a production cost of between 0.02-0.03kWh to the base cost during the last 15 years prior to refurbishment. The last government audit before the watch dog on electricity prices was gutted by the provincial liberals put the minimum cost that FIT and green energy was increasing the price was 16.5%, that was in ~2013.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    56. Re:Not bad by swillden · · Score: 1

      Countries investing in renewables know perfectly well the strategy means higher prices in the short term, so prices being higher today is actually part of the strategy and by no means evidence it's "not working"

      What, exactly are they trying to accomplish? If they're trying to reduce CO2 emissions, then that's a bad strategy because it encourages the use of fossil fuels for transportation. Germany is lagging far behind the rest of the rich world in adoption of electric vehicles, and with such high electricity prices we can expect that to continue.

      At present, industry and electricity production are larger producers of greenhouse gases than transportation and should be reduced first. But replacing millions of vehicles will take a lot of time, so it's important to start that changeover as early as possible, while simultaneously moving to lower-emission industrial processes and power plants. Shutting down nuclear plants, the cleanest, safest form of electrical power generation yet created, while encouraging continued reliance on fossil fuels for transportation is just foolish.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    57. Re:Not bad by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      And you missed a whole bunch...

      Just a FYI that "standard debt" was paid off in 2015, electricity prices are still going up.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    58. Re:Not bad by necro81 · · Score: 1

      Electric power in Germany is more than twice as expensive as it is in America

      German also use about half as much electricity as Americans (per capita) [alternate ref], so I'd say it roughly balances out. And Germany's GDP per unit of energy is also higher than the U.S., so higher energy prices don't seem to be killing their economy. If anything, Germany gets a lot of flack from its neighbors and trading partners that it's economy is too strong.

      Just because something is more expensive on a per unit basis doesn't necessarily mean that you'll end up paying more. If demand is elastic, you'll reduce usage as a result. Here in the developed world, and particularly the U.S., where our use of electricity is fantastically wasteful an inefficient, demand is VERY elastic.

    59. Re:Not bad by necro81 · · Score: 2

      Most of the world does not pay 0.0688 EUR/kWh as green energy subsidy

      And yet it doesn't seem to be hurting their standard of living, or their economy as a whole.

    60. Re:Not bad by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Well, some must have figured out how to communicate with them because Quebec produces more than half the quantity of electricity that US produces itself and sells a lot of electricity to US because it wouldn't know what to do with all that production otherwise.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    61. Re:Not bad by bsolar · · Score: 2
      They are going up because the bad deals are still in force and will be for a long time:

      There is relatively little the government can do to lower rates through more lasting, structural means, mostly because the Liberals have tied up so much of the system in 20-year contracts.

      To be clear, I don't question that the energy policy in Ontario has been a disaster, I question attributing the failure to "renewable don't work" when the issues in Ontario are broader in scope and didn't affect only renewables.

      No energy policy is going to work well if you implement it with bad planning and through overpriced non-renegotiable bad deals to private companies, be it renewables, nuclear, coal or whatever.

    62. Re:Not bad by coofercat · · Score: 1

      ...and who wouldn't want to buy German PV cells, or German steam generators, or German turbines? All those years ago when they started to focus on engineering quality the same things were said, "it's too expensive, we can't do it, it's not sensible" etc etc. But now, it's really looking like rather a good thing.

      The whole thing may well have been a fluke, but I challenge any other country to fluke anything close to that number.

    63. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      ^This is part of the reason why wind and solar can achieve high percentages on a Sontag is spring and we get headlines like this submission. But industry is where electricity prices really hit home and are why almost every country subsidizes electricity of every form. Unfortunately, there are still weekdays when the plants are humming and Germany's huge investment in wind and solar are still providing less than 5% of demand.

    64. Re:Not bad by LSD-OBS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you knew what a "regressive tax" is, I expect you would not have isolated the word "regressive" from its context.

      Irony++

      I have no idea what renewable energy government subsidies exist in Germany, nor do I understand their impact on taxation, but the parent comment makes the clear assertion that there is a greater relative financial burden on poorer consumers & taxpayers than on the more wealthy.

      Whether or not this is true, the concept itself is internally consistent and semantically accurate.

      --
      Today's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. -- Hunter S. Thompson
    65. Re:Not bad by ctilsie242 · · Score: 1

      Oh, there is always the, "Solar panels and wind turbines require more energy to be made than they gain back in their lifetime", argument. I see that popping up often as well.

    66. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      Germany is not nearly finished with its transition. It is expected to be nuclear free by around 2023. This news is just showing that they are well on their way to that goal, with another 5 years to go before we can really judge the outcome.

      Actually, Germany is significantly slowing down expansion of solar and wind. At this point there are sill days when solar and wind struggle to provide 5% of demand. So they have a long way to go. The costs of adding new capacity are going up because of the major transmission infrastructure adjustments that will be required to achieve a higher capacity penetration from intermittent renewables. Prices will continue to rise. With nuclear shutdowns, CO2 emissions will rise as well for quite some time. Its a big challenge. Germany has invested huge amounts but their overall CO2 output hasn't really improved much.

    67. Re:Not bad by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

      Why is this modded down?

    68. Re:Not bad by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? On most days, the percentage of Germany's power that comes from coal is nearly three times that of the US.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    69. Re:Not bad by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My point exactly. But if you want to compare the situation in Germany to the USA, they also on average use less than half the electricity per person, so that "high" cost of green energy isn't anywhere near as bad as Americans may think.

      They seem to be on to something, this country that is the size of a state, and yet is the 4th largest economy in the world. Most interesting when viewed per capita.

      And we all can cut our electrical consumption a lot without affecting our quality of life.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    70. Re:Not bad by DemoLiter3 · · Score: 1

      Electricity costs ~30 eurocents per kWh in Germany now, with prices expected to continue to grow.
      The number of interventions to balance the grid skyrockets. It is expected that the grid will be separated into north and south regions to improve stability in a few years.
      At the same time, the CO2 production keeps increasing.
      And we haven't even starting shutting down major nuclear plants yet.
      Anyone want to tell how it's "working" ?

    71. Re:Not bad by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 5, Informative

      Maybe because it is very wrong on some points.

      Germany is not "the size of a single average US State". It is larger than all but four states, those four being Alaska, Texas, California, and Montana.

      Germany's population of 82,000,000 is not "a tiny fraction" of the US' 330,000,000, it's about one quarter.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    72. Re:Not bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Probably because there was very little scandal in Solyndra unless you listen to the conservative echo chamber. Much of the money loaned to Solyndra was eventually returned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra

      Solyndra was used by the echo chamber as an example of how the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 was a boondoggle, except the solar program part of it ended up returning a profit for the government in the and and the ARRA was in total a broad success. Conservative keep trying to use that canard as a reason to criticize Obama when there is ample evidence to the contrary if they actually cared to look it up. If they did honest research they would find the Republicans at the time did many things to sabotage that bill, cutting out the most stimulating portions of it creating the slow recovery situation we've been living in since the Great Recession. Yet all they can do is blame Obama or HRC or anybody but conservatives or republican actions and policies.

      captcha: frauds :)

    73. Re:Not bad by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Renewables are good and all, but the UK has too high a population density to make a pure renewables solution remotely feasible. I think that nukes are a good solution for the rest, except that the government doesn't seem capable of actually managing that for a remotely reasonable price.

      Pretty much every other tech has got better, cheaper and safer as time has gone on as people understand how to do it better. Colossal mismanagement has made nuclear power plants go the opposite way.

      Maybe they should just give it to TFL to build as a traction station. They seem to be able to run large projects very effectively.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    74. Re:Not bad by knightghost · · Score: 1

      It's not working because it's not efficient. 3x the cost for "renewables" is creating that much more pollution but hiding it somewhere else in the supply chain.

    75. Re:Not bad by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      It's good for the environment for energy prices to go up.

    76. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Germany is to big, to have 'no wind'.

      Its not to big to have 'essentially no wind'. For all Germany;

      Jan 8, 2017 8:00 AM Wind Generation = 0.6% of demand
      Jan 22, 2017 8:00 AM Wind Generatin = 0.8% of demand

      There are many similar times. This is with wind being approximately 25% of total installed nameplate capacity.

      Also, on some occasions an anticyclone can cover a good portion of France, Germany, and nearby countries.

    77. Re:Not bad by j-beda · · Score: 1

      What's the problem? Oh you know, little things, like using taxpayer dollars to fund companies that have connections to the powers that be - you know, little f**king things like that.

      I find it amusing that I don't know if GLMDesigns is complaining about "big oil" connection to the "powers that be" or "big solar" connections to the "powers that be". Maybe it is both?

    78. Re:Not bad by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      You know that Americans are definitely the greatest at one thing: Making excuses.

      You should try paying the same as everyone else for electricity and petrol and we'll see if you sit around and make excuses or actually solve the underlying engineering problem of poorly insulated, poorly constructed housing, and cars that use more fuel just to start their engine than many overseas cars use to commute to work.

      For the greatest country on earth you certainly seem to have a lot of unsolvable problems that the rest of the world has dealt with without issue.

    79. Re:Not bad by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      High population density is actually pretty good for renewables because there is no need to build very long power lines to get power from one part of the country to another. Besides, the population density in UK and Germany is about the same.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    80. Re:Not bad by bazorg · · Score: 1

      Germany imports its power.

      Is that relevant?
      If the EU works more and more like a federation of states, and if the power grids work well enough to distribute cross borders, is it a useful goal to have to aim for 100% local production?

      I don't know how it works in big federations like Russia, USA, India and Brazil, but to me it sounds like among cooperative players, sending electricity back and forth to optimise availability and price should not be constrained by state or national borders.

    81. Re:Not bad by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      or actually solve the underlying engineering problem of poorly insulated, poorly constructed housing,

      I don't know about the rest of your comment, but new houses in America have some downright amazing insulation.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    82. Re:Not bad by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      There is nothing "safe" about a nuclear chain reaction, controlled by high-tech systems that are prone to technical malfunction, human error and natural or human caused disasters.
      Not to mention the problem of storing the radioactive waste products and the skyrocketing costs of dismantling old plants.

      And then you have the nuclear companies which are of course always keen to promote their energy as safe and cheap, but in the end they are companies in it for profit, so they cut corners where ever possible.
      And when something goes wrong, it's the taxpayer who has to step in for the billions upon billions of costs, because the sheer weight of such an incident will bankrupt any company. See Fukushima.

    83. Re:Not bad by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Electric car adaption lags behind because most people live in rented flats and most cars are parked on the road.

      Shutting down nuclear power plants makes sense because Germany still has no place to store radioactive waste. Besides, an overwhelming majority of the population wants to shut nuclear power down.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    84. Re:Not bad by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Two things.

      1) Canada electrical consumption is more than the US because of climate. i.e. it is cold here much of the year unlike much of the US. A better comparison might be some other Nordic countries (Finland, Norway. Sweden, etc...). Though I wouldn't be surprised if we're much high than them, likely due to resource abundance.

      2) The increase of power cost has little to do with "Green Energy" and more to do with energy contracts signed (for 20 year terms I believe) by government with private sector. It was my understanding that this was over inflated to promote economic growth in the sector... So it is entirely artificial, and more an aspect of economic development than it is of actual energy generation. The false idea they had was this would bring jobs and generation, but largely only the later as all the stuff is built elsewhere and shipped in. The only jobs created are short term construction jobs, and a handful needed for maintenance.

    85. Re:Not bad by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      Just to be clear Ontario's electricity system has been screwed up for a VERY long time. Long before the Liberals came in with the whole Green idea. The whole privatization of the industry was a mess (may have been a mess even before that). I recall having a "Debt Repayment" line on my bill for years. The system while likely mismanaged by government when it was owned by the crown. The transfer to private (sort of private anyway), was mismanaged, and it is actively being mismanaged by the "private" corporation. At any rate I think you would have to go back a very long way (1970's maybe) and across all political parties before you find some semblance of it running "well". Probably only then because it cost a huge amount that the government just subsidized and ate the cost in tax dollars to run. Anyway I find is very funny that it is somehow the current political party that is somehow behind it all the power woes... It is laughable. Heck there were specific laws that had to be put in place to prevent electrical distribution companies from ripping off people in Ontario it was so rampant after privatization... Never mind the CEO and Exes of HyroOne all paying themselves millions, or any number of boondogles, including gas plants, nuclear refurbishment, and a host of other things every couple of years. But sure lets blame the current political party for everything...

    86. Re:Not bad by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      > Quebec produces more than half the quantity of electricity that US produces itself

      Not sure what your trying to say, Quebec produces total capacity of 2,990 MW While the us produces 1,068.4 Gigawatts(GW) so the US is 350* larger producer. US has 80Gw of hydro power, so the US is 25* larger producer of hydro power.

    87. Re:Not bad by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      Along with green energy came major infrastructure investments and the decree that we should never again have power outages. The gold plating began.

      I'm confused. Are you complaining about making the infrastructure more reliable or using Monster Cables to do it?

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    88. Re:Not bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      New Zealand got just as f***ed over when they deregulated the market - result prices go up, and you get bombarded with advertising, cold calls and a bamboozling of pricing plans from electricity "retailers" with share holders to pay, but hey they can toot their horn about closing the last coal fired plant a while back, but still sell coal hard out to China and other places.

    89. Re:Not bad by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      You know, electricity was cheap in Canada until they started pushing "green energy" too.

      Electricity's also gotten more expensive in places where they're not "pushing "green energy"".

      Are you sure the price of electricity hasn't gone up due to Canadian hockey teams getting worse?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    90. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      And the result from that cost, which is mainly taxes, is:
      o a typical german household uses 1/5th to 1/4 of the energy an american household uses
      o and hence the total monthly bill of a german household for electricity is less than half of yours

      Most days Germany gets 45% of their electric generation from coal, and 26% from lignite or "brown coal", the world's filthiest fuel.
      Fist of all, he times that we have 70% of our electricity from coal are long long over.
      Secondly there is no "filthyness" in lignite, brown coal plants use the same technology like hard coal plants to scrub the exhaust

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    91. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      You never looked at a thermostat huh? Well you can only run one at a time.
      if both are separated entities, which they are nearly all over the world you can run both.
      A friend of mine was in an american hotel. Autumn or so. Room so hot, he could not sleep. Windows could not be opened. the heater, a water pumped radiator had a broken vent, he could not shut it down.
      The only way to get the room below 25C was to run the AC parallel to the heating ...
      Many people want it war, so the heating is on. But enjoy the cold air flo of the AC, so the AC is on, too.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    92. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      I have no idea what renewable energy government subsidies exist in Germany
      Close to none.
      The money comes from the customers, the grid operators pay fixed feed in tariffs to wind and solar producers. And those are broken down on the over all energy price.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    93. Re:Not bad by JWW · · Score: 1

      Its not totally working.

      They got 85% in April but only 40% in March.

      That energy storage thing your talking about has to get solved.

      Only then can a stable load of renewable energy power a country without the need for very large backup capacity.

      Totally agree though that it is THE problem to solve.

      And then it will be working every month.

    94. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.
      When I ride by train from Karlsruhe to Stuttgart I pass plenty of small towns and villages where a high percentage of roof tops have PV solar installations. It looks pretty, futuristic and is a nice show off for the owners.

      And when we talk about the beauty of mankinds buildings, you can hardly find anything that looks as majestetic as a field of thousands of 300m high wind mills.The only things coming close are a few super high buildings and the longest bridges if the world.

      Modern wind parks are not a few hundred out of service 35m turbines rotting in he landscape. The are truly magnificient sights. Only an idiot would find them ugly.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    95. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Energy prices are falling in germany since 3 or 4 years ...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    96. Re:Not bad by ls671 · · Score: 1

      I meant hydro power, sorry. But still; Don't mix capacity and production! Production isn't that good when dams are empty even with infinite capacity.

      **Hydro power**
      Production:
      In 2008:
      Quebec: ~180 TWh
      US: ~280 TWh
      In 2011:
      Quebec: ~190 TWh
      US: ~345 TWh

      Capacity:
      Quebec ~35 GW
      US ~100 GW

      Here is some more links:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    97. Re:Not bad by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Interesting, it took 5 minutes for this comment to even show up ?

      I see this is all the time in Slashdot stories now when I start a new comment thread.

    98. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Fraunhofer shows a clear increase in year over year energy spot prices in Germany for each month so far this year compared to 2016. The only anomalies are overproduction negative price scrambles.

    99. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      And the overall trend is clearly still upward;

      https://www.cleanenergywire.or...

    100. Re:Not bad by greythax · · Score: 1

      I live in Louisiana, and 8 ish years ago my electric bill literally DOUBLED overnight. My lifestyle hadn't changed, and I checked my ac, but then I looked closer at my electric bill, and realized, in some months, more than half of my bill was going to a fuel adjustment. Entergy.com , Now, I don't know from month to month what my bill will look like, and have more than once been surprised with a $500+ bill (my usual is about $130). For those who are unaware, there are only about 3 weeks a year when Louisiana would be considered to have "Comfortable" weather.

      My point being, the argument that conventional generation methods will be kinder to the consumer is crap if you live in my state. If we get back to the way it was I would WELCOME a measly 40% increase.

    101. Re:Not bad by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who says you pay just the same? It costs a little more than the median US average price, and a lot lower than nearly half the states. And therefore they use less, get just as much (they are, if anything, getting more: it's colder on average over all Germany than it is on average over all the USA, even including Alaska), and pay less overall.

      There's no need to sign you up. You don't sign up to use less. You just use less. You sign up to get more out of what you DO use by insulating your home, avoiding wasteful use of power (the sun and wind dry clothes just fine), and not being a stupid fuck, basically.

      Some folks just don't get it. As I have pointed out many times, my energy conservation tactics have resulted in a net profit for me. I use less electricity than I did 15 years ago, and my bill is only ten percent more than my neighbors, who are in town for only a few days a month - they are paying almost the same as me for a home in maintenance mode, while I even have a hot tub spa. and am home every day except when on vacation.

      It's fine I suppose if a person wants a huge vehicle that gets 10 mpg or less, and is satisfied with paying a hellava lot of their hard earned money ot an oil company. I just don't have a lot of sympathy when they bitch about the obvious solutions.

      Every year technology has made strides in energy generation and storage, and every year the inertia crowd's whinging has become more hollow. Coal will stay in the ground, and Oil will become feedstock. Even if we did go balls to the wall oil and coal, we'd just reduce the recoverable amounts to a level that would be too expensive and not enough supply and do it sooner. And as a last thought, I don't know if this will be decried as cultural appropriation, but damnit, never ever bet against the Germans in matters of technology.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    102. Re:Not bad by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      >And we all can cut our electrical consumption a lot without affecting our quality of life.

      I am glad you have declared yourself overseer and know everything about everyone. Is the next step God?

      Who's an overseer? And I only give counsel to Gawd. There's no force here. If you want to burn Tungsten instead of LED - or if you really want to go full bore, put arc lamps in your house - by all means do it. If you want to buy a diesel truck, and modify it so that you pump a shitload of fuel into it so you can roal coal at the smug muthafucks in their Prius, do it; and if you want to heat your house in Alaska with all the windows open all winter - hey, be my guest. just don't go whinging about it when you are broke.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    103. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      What has the spot price to do with consumer prices?
      For households the prises are sinking since years and continue to sink ...

      People, especial americans, should finally try to get it.

      Two nights in a pub, 5 beers or ciders, cost me more than my monthly electricity bill.
      Unless the electricity prices increase ten fold, no one cares ....

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    104. Re:Not bad by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      And we all can cut our electrical consumption a lot without affecting our quality of life.

      I completely agree. Where do I sign up for this "get half as much but still pay the same" program?

      Umm, way to not get it. You will be paying more for the same thing, not me. And if burning tungsten light bulbs instead of LED's which cost a hellava lot less is important to you, then pay the bill.

      People who don't like to insulate their houses, or demand 8 mile per gallon vehicles or any other conserving tactics are welcome to pay for them. I've paid off all my updates, and the money that would otherwise go to the oil company or the electrical company is now sitting in the bank or in investments.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    105. Re:Not bad by erapert · · Score: 1

      In fact, all available evidence suggests that only around 3% of the cost increase was due to "green" subsidies and FiT, the majority being other incidental costs and guaranteed payments to nuclear generators.

      All available evidence, eh? So how about you post it, then?

    106. Re:Not bad by Uecker · · Score: 1

      I guess you use a new definition of "real". In fact, Germany exported more than 50 TWh in 2016 - more than every before.
      Numbers are here: http://www.ag-energiebilanzen....

    107. Re:Not bad by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      I'm still trying to figure out how Solyndra was a 'scandal.'

    108. Re:Not bad by Uecker · · Score: 1

      Anyone want to complain how it's not working ?

      Sure, I will. Electric power in Germany is more than twice as expensive as it is in America. That is because the costs of all the subsidies are pushed onto the consumer in what is effectively a regressive tax. Maybe what they are doing has some long term benefits, but considering that more than half of every electric bill goes to subsidise the renewables and the politically driven nuke closures, by many criteria it is "not working".

      Household costs are high in Germany, about 0.30 EUR per kWh. But only about 0.07 EUR are subsidies for renewables - not "half of every electric bill". BTW, parts of the industry are exempt from paying this. Of course, the subsidies could have been paid from general taxes as subsidies for nuclear of fossil fuels, but this was a a political decision. The idea is that high prices will promote energy saving.

    109. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      What has the spot price to do with consumer prices?

      Uggh. Did you really ask that? They correlate well when averaged over time.

    110. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Germany has right now not much offshore wind capacity.
      To have an objective opinion about your dates (a link would help), I would need to know what was going on at those times.

      Strom fronts are not a big issue ... for wind mills to shut down the storm must be very server ...

      And as you likely have noticed: we sill have most of our old power plants. So why would anyone care?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    111. Re:Not bad by Uecker · · Score: 1

      Electricity costs ~30 eurocents per kWh in Germany now, with prices expected to continue to grow.

      The renewable energy surcharge is expected to decrease in the future as the old inefficient solar plants will stop getting a guaranteed feed-in tariff at some point in time. And newer ones build now get a much smaller feed-in tariff due.

      The number of interventions to balance the grid skyrockets.

      What kind of interventions are you talking about? Anyway, it works nicely. The grid is stable.

      It is expected that the grid will be separated into north and south regions to improve stability in a few years.

      This is nonsense. The plan is to build power lines from north to south.

      At the same time, the CO2 production keeps increasing.

      CO2 production for generation of electricity is falling (3% in 2016).

      And we haven't even starting shutting down major nuclear plants yet.

      We have already shut down eight in 2011 and one in 2015.

      Anyone want to tell how it's "working" ?

      Can you tell me how you are able to survive while ignoring reality?

    112. Re:Not bad by Uecker · · Score: 1

      CO2 in electricity production was decreasing by %3 in 2016. http://www.ag-energiebilanzen....
      Total CO2 was increasing because overall economy increased and due to weather, but this in unrelated to electricity.

      Also nuclear is not a solution because it is far too expensive. Of course, shutting down existing (paid for) plants which work fine was a bad decision. But shutting down coal instead would have put so many people out of jobs, that it was political impossible to do.

    113. Re:Not bad by JimSadler · · Score: 1

      There is no safety in current nuclear plants. When incidents occur large areas are effected. That is not acceptable risk as a real clean up and restore to pre incident status is not possible. Maybe one day we can have nuclear power that really is safe but it is not at hand at this time. Coal burning also clearly causes heart and lung deaths and remains unacceptable as an energy source.

    114. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Those responsible for power production and managing the grid most definitely care. You can conveniently dismiss this reality if you wish.

    115. Re:Not bad by swillden · · Score: 1

      Electric car adaption lags behind because most people live in rented flats and most cars are parked on the road.

      Same as France, but France is leading the EV charge.

      Shutting down nuclear power plants makes sense because Germany still has no place to store radioactive waste.

      Nonsense. Nuclear plants can continue storing the waste on site just as they have done.

      Besides, an overwhelming majority of the population wants to shut nuclear power down.

      Politically popular isn't the same thing as wise.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    116. Re:Not bad by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Follow the link I posted.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    117. Re:Not bad by IcyWolfy · · Score: 1

      Inflation would dictate that prices go up 2-3% a year.
      With actual CPI rates, prices would need to go up 19% over the last 10 years in order to not decrease in value at all;
      Outside of that, as maintenance costs increase, I would also plan for 10-15% price increases over time as well.

      Personally, I would prefer that prices be set to actually offset the entire cost of resource management, environmental impact, maintenance contracts, -upgrade contracts- (improve, don't just maintain), inflationary cost capture, and "rainy day fund" (aka: an extra 5% that doesn't get used at all, except to hold in securities to offset future unexpected events, this fund would have a maximum withdrawal allowance of 3% current value per year)

      I currentyl pay 20c/kwH for the first "city average, previous year" number of units of usage. Then I pay 40c/kwH.
      I also believe we are severely under-paying for electricity based on generation. I am actively pushing the city to push to bring up the rates to at least 80c/kwH, and use the extra funds to start building bettter public transit infrastructure, better parkland infrastructure (capping highways and putting park-land on top), and to start a mindshare of financial independence from the federal government.

      Gasoline prices are also hideously underpriced.
      Car registrations are underpriced.

      We have too much traffic on the roads. Parking is impossible to find. We need to do what countries around the world do, and have a 2- 3,000$ annual registration tax. And for cities with high congestions, start adding a $50/day "city entrance fee" , and raise prices until congestion goes down.

      Singapore is an amazing example of where such a policy has created a wonderful place with public transit, pristine roads, (car tax is 120% of the car value, and registration is another $50,000; total cost to buy a Prius is $200,000).

      We in North America need to get off our rumps, and more importantly, to not fall deeper into the trap of materialism, and non-self-sustaining policies. More affordable housing (so, bringing the average housing value in Toronto own to 5-10k; by building appealing skyscrapers, higher density living with more green space, and walkable localaities). And bringing about a cultural change that shuns excessive personal ownership, personal greed; the biblical sins of hatred, sedition, drunkenness, dishonesty, vanity, and worst of all-- envy of others.

      People in North America generally need to have a better sense of humility about themselves.
      Many times I am ashamed to be Canadian.

    118. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      They don't correlate at all.
      Consumer prices are flat rate prices fixed for minimum 2 years.

      I don't care what the price at the spot market is, I never see it, I never react to it, I never pay it.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    119. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      If I were German I'd worry about some of the disturbing choices presented in this article. Hopefully this isn't serious, I can't tell. They are literally recommending taxing things besides energy and surcharging other industries to pay for renewables. This will hide the rising costs from directly impacting electricity prices

      https://www.cleanenergywire.or...

    120. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      You will. You are paying prices that reflect the past average market prices and predicted prices going forward, that is part of how your rates are set.

    121. Re:Not bad by erapert · · Score: 1
      From the IESO page:

      The rate is set to reflect the difference between the market price and:

      The regulated rates paid to Ontario Power Generation's nuclear and hydroelectric baseload generating stations;
      Payments made to suppliers that have been awarded contracts through the Ontario Power Authority such as new gas-fired facilities, renewable facilities (like wind farms) and demand response programs; and
      Contracted rates administered by the Ontario Electricity Financial Corporation paid to existing generators.

      I added the bolding.

      From en-powered.com (the second reference from the wikipedia article):

      Why this fee is on my bill

      The Global Adjustment fee is used to cover the costs of two major programs in the Ontario energy sector:

      Firstly, this fee is used to cover the cost of all the energy conservation programs in Ontario, such as rebates for LED lighting and HVAC retrofits. This funding is also used for various recycling programs and other initiatives.

      Secondly, in order to ensure a steady supply of electricity, the government promised electricity generators a certain level of income for the electricity that they produced. In almost every case, the electricity price guaranteed to generators is higher than the current wholesale cost of electricity. The difference between these two rates – the rate promised to electricity generators and the actual wholesale cost of electricity – is the Global Adjustment.

      To cover the costs of these two programs, the Global Adjustment was added to the electricity bills of every consumer in Ontario.

      Again, I added the bolding. In the second case it doesn't make clear whether or not renewable energy sources are included; but considering that the previous reference does include them I feel safe in assuming that renewables are included.

      Overconsumption

      Due to the Global Adjustment, there is now a disincentive for the province to consume less electricity. This was made painfully clear in the spring of 2016 when, after the entire province consumed less electricity due to an abnormally warm winter, electricity rates were still increased.

      This happened because energy generators have been guaranteed a stable income stream. So, if they produce electricity that is not consumed, they are still being paid for this energy production. This is a great way to attract investment to our province, allowing generators to earn a return on their long-term investments, but it is terrible for consumers.

      So government interference has screwed things up once again? Noted.
      The article then shows some graphs and points out that the global adjustment is accounting for the vast majority of the increase in electricity rates for people in Ontario... and as the first reference mentioned, the global adjustment rate is helping to pay renewable sources to produce electricity.

      The MSP report from 2011 is dated by now, but appears to show that government interference in the price of electricity increased the price.

      The wikipedia reference that claimed that renewables accounted for only 3% of the price increase leads to 404 page. So, again, I would like some sources for this.

      If you really care about getting energy costs down, you should demand nuclear plants have their guaranteed payment agreements cancelled (likely impossible) and support expansion of renewable energy as quickly as possible.

      So you appear to be correct that demanding the cancellation of guaranteed

    122. Re:Not bad by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      AC, you've been shitposting all over the story repeatedly using the phrase "green shit" and "eco loons." Please stop.

    123. Re:Not bad by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      Germany is 1.5 times the size of Wyoming. Wyoming has ~650K people in it. Germany has 82 million. There are a LOT of people in a SMALL space there. This means fewer transmission line losses as the distance between power station producing and any consumer is much smaller. What's staggering to me is how many people can be fit in such a small space AND they can grow enough food not only to feed themselves, but have a surplus.

    124. Re:Not bad by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that ordinary people - consumers, if yo uwill - pay significantly higher kwH prices than industry - so you must ask yourself "What is the market to which you are referring?' when it comes to "Germany's power is more expensive."

    125. Re:Not bad by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      I think the gent that made those 'excuses' was Canadian, actually, and last time I noted that Canada and the USA were different countries - unless you mean "the people of north, central, and south America are the best at making excuses"

    126. Re:Not bad by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1
      Average house size by country correlates strongly to electrical consumption per capita with the US, Canada and Australia generally high in both regards. Average house size in Germany is half of what it is US. http://shrinkthatfootprint.com...

      If you consider house size to be a component of quality of life, then Germany is taking quite a hit on quality of life to get those lower electrical consumption numbers.

    127. Re:Not bad by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1

      If electric and petrol are cheap, then poorly insulated houses and gas guzzling cars aren't problems that need to be solved.

    128. Re:Not bad by WrongMonkey · · Score: 1

      The thing is that we consume a lot less electricity in Germany.

      Your houses are also about half the the size of the US. http://shrinkthatfootprint.com...

    129. Re:Not bad by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      High population density is actually pretty good for renewables

      I think we're talking at crossed purposes. I meant that the total population density is quite high, not that there are regions of high density combined with regions of low density. The problem with renewables is that they are not very dense, and you need a certain number of square meters of energy collecting area per person on which to place your renewable energy harvesters.

      If you examine the total available renewable energy available and compare that to the amount that we use, you'll see that the two don't match up, especially if you keep a reasonable amount of land for farming. See (the very sadly late) Mackay's "renewable energy without the hot air". He makes some pretty optimistic assumptions about the efficiencies and possible capacity factors.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    130. Re:Not bad by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      It would be much clearer to say Germany is 10% smaller than California, and has just over twice the population of California.

      And, by the way, that is not a small space.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    131. Re:Not bad by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Sure, I will. Electric power in Germany is more than twice as expensive as it is in America.

      Is that bad? Of course paying more for the same thing sounds bad on the surface, and that is why politicians and talk-back radio jocks throw such catchphrases around so readily. But if you offered me fully renewable, sustainable, non-polluting energy the will last as long as the sun, for twice the current market price, I'd says that is cheap.

    132. Re:Not bad by ls671 · · Score: 1

      You should have mentioned mercury sedimentation/concentration whether it comes from natural origin or not. Natives living out there have been been found to have unusually high mercury level in their body after the dams were built.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    133. Re:Not bad by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You're an idiot and the reason why your country is among the top polluters per capita in the world.

    134. Re:Not bad by Uecker · · Score: 1

      Total contribution over the year is still substantial. Renewable contributed 188 TWh from 648 TWh total production in 2016 including 38 TWh solar and 77 TWh wind. You are pretending there is a small contribution only relevant on weekends. This is far from the truth.

    135. Re:Not bad by DemoLiter3 · · Score: 1

      (fuck HTML)

      > The renewable energy surcharge is expected to decrease in the future as the old inefficient solar plants will stop getting a guaranteed feed-in tariff at some point in time. And newer ones build now get a much smaller feed-in tariff due.
      The tariff is guaranteed for 20 years since registration. We are still paying 99 ct/kWh to some operators that registered their solar panels in the 90's. The tariffs are only slowly decreasing, but only for NEW registrations - when are they supposed to reaching the level of conventional pricing (3-4 ct/kWh+own storage capacity) - in 40-50 years maybe? Pathetic!

      > What kind of interventions are you talking about? Anyway, it works nicely. The grid is stable.
      The grid is stable BECAUSE of interventions. Switching extremely expensive emergency capacities to keep it stable. The day they won't find enough capacity we will see blackouts all over the place. Right now it's just translated into electricity price.

      >> It is expected that the grid will be separated into north and south regions to improve stability in a few years.
      > This is nonsense. The plan is to build power lines from north to south.
      That's what I'm talking about. Separation into zones.

      > At the same time, the CO2 production keeps increasing.
      > CO2 production for generation of electricity is falling (3% in 2016).
      CO2 is still CO2. The fact is that production of CO2 in Germany is increasing, hence all the efforts to prevent so called "climate change" have been for nothing so far, but they COST.

      > And we haven't even starting shutting down major nuclear plants yet.
      > We have already shut down eight in 2011 and one in 2015.
      Small, old, and mostly incapacitated ones. The 8 remaining are all in 1.3-1.4GW range. The 8 reactors and 14GW capacity being disabled within just 5 years. How is this supposed to be compensated?

      >> Anyone want to tell how it's "working" ?
      > Can you tell me how you are able to survive while ignoring reality?
      It's the green shitheads like you who's ignoring reality. Expect no mercy from the reality when it comes for you.

    136. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      You are pretending there is a small contribution only relevant on weekends.

      I never said nor implied that. I was just putting things in perspective when it comes to these momentary peaks. Many don't realize just how wide the range is.

    137. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Total contribution over the year is still substantial. Renewable contributed 188 TWh from 648 TWh total production in 2016 including 38 TWh solar and 77 TWh wind. You are pretending there is a small contribution only relevant on weekends. This is far from the truth.

      According to Fraunhofer, for year 2016, German Energy Production was only 14.4% Wind, 6.9% Solar.

    138. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      If you knew what a "regressive tax" is, I expect you would not have isolated the word "regressive" from its context.

      Irony++

      I have no idea what renewable energy government subsidies exist in Germany, nor do I understand their impact on taxation, but the parent comment makes the clear assertion that there is a greater relative financial burden on poorer consumers & taxpayers than on the more wealthy.

      Whether or not this is true, the concept itself is internally consistent and semantically accurate.

      Its complicated. Here is some discussion about what they might need to do going forward, which includes taxing other business to help pay for renewables;

      https://www.cleanenergywire.or...

    139. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      WTF, are you really an idiot?
      Spot prices have nothing to do with consumer prices or any other long term contracts.

      And as pointed out: consumer prices are falling. Industrial/retail prices are stable since years, and the spot market is for random surplus power sales and needs.

      The spot market prices are completely irrelevant for a household customer.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    140. Re:Not bad by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I've spoken to people in Ontario who are unlucky enough to have bought a house with electric heat, back when that was an affordable way to heat their homes.

      Same thing happened to them that happened when Montana power "deregulated" (aka took the money and ran):

      Between one year and the next, the average monthly heat bill went from around $100 to almost $700.

      And given that, if you can't repipe for natural gas (not available everywhere), your only option is to install a wood-burning stove (IF your local regs allow it; some don't), which makes smoke. Yeah, did wonders for "green energy" and "the economy", eh?

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    141. Re:Not bad by Reziac · · Score: 1

      The average German home is also about half the size of the average American home. I'm not sure how they compare for electric use but I'd guess it's also about half. This might be the only thing that keeps it "affordable".

      Well, here's a Handy Chart, tho it doesn't break out industrial vs home use:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    142. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      If market prices were irrelevant, they would not exist.

    143. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      They are irrelevant for 2 year long consumer contracts.
      Because they are used to 'buy on the spot' hence the name 'spot market'.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    144. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Wait till they re calculate the new rates. Market prices are a key factor, you can ignore it if you like, even though its a pretty simple concept.

    145. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Sorry mate, google what the EEX is and how it works.
      You are simply wrong.

      Spot market prices have nothing to do with either industrial or household power usage.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    146. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      The EEX is the market system. It is how market prices are set. Rate setters use the average market prices along with other factors when they set rates. Its a pretty basic concept, not sure why you don't understand it but I won't waste my time trying any more, you will just deny it like you did the generation percentages I posted even though they were right in front of your eyes in your own source link. I'm done here, you are wasting my time.

    147. Re:Not bad by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      And people talk about storage. Where is all this storage?

      Right here. Also here. Off the shelf products you can buy today, if you're a commercial customer with fairly deep pockets. They're expensive, relatively speaking, but they're not theoretical. Total cost of ownership is no worse than a large scale diesel generator with a large on site tank, and the permitting and construction process is much easier. No EPA crap to deal with, since there's no big tank of flammable fluid with a limited tank life involved.

      Those electrical storage systems are being sold and installed all over the world. Walmart is a customer. Dozens of grid providers are customers. They're immediately useful to grid operators today, even those who don't have one iota of intermittent power generation connected. They're used to provide load balancing that's even faster than natural gas turbines to respond to changes in demand.

    148. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      And why don't you grasp that the EEX has nothing to do with consumer prices?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    149. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Stop making a fool of yourself. Every half educated person knows the laws of supply and demand and how pricing and cost are related. Market pricing is ALWAYS reflected in final retail prices/rates. It is a central factor, otherwise they wouldn't bother pricing power on the market. You are just denying stuff instead of trying to understand what you don't. How pathetic.

    150. Re:Not bad by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      And the EEX has nothing to do with supply and demand of household energy.
      What is so hard to grasp?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    151. Re:Not bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I'll let your stupid comments stand on their own.

    152. Re:Not bad by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      It IS a small space if you consider people live there, with homes, and they product a surplus of food, and have a major industrial economy.

  2. Not bad by Lennie · · Score: 1

    10 or probably even more years ago the German government started funding renewable energy production to get it to mass production level, these days they are funding energy storage.

    Anyone want to discuss how their plans are not working ?

    --
    New things are always on the horizon
  3. freezing in the dark by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 2

    Germany is so sustainable, that they may turn you into fertilizer when you freeze to death with some of the most expensive electric bills in the industrialized world (about 35 cents/kWh, Denmark costs even more).

    1. Re:freezing in the dark by Sique · · Score: 3, Informative

      Austria, whose electric energy generation is 70% based on renewables, has energy prices of about 20 ct/kWh. It's not the way Germany generates energy, it's about how Germany taxes energy.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    2. Re:freezing in the dark by blkhawk · · Score: 1

      I made a post about this. The problem is the way the cost of the renewable buildup is placed solely on private households and small businesses. If you use enough power you get an excemption - that means others have to pay for your part and that makes the whole thing even worse.

    3. Re:freezing in the dark by dunkelfalke · · Score: 3, Informative

      Whence did you get the strange idea that electrical heating is widely used over here? Moreover, Germany is not a very cold country and many houses are insulated quite well because upgrading insulation was sponsored by the government a while ago. The typical heating bill for a rented apartment (that's how the majority of Germans live) is about 700 EUR a year and quite a bit less than that if the house is insulated and it is paid as a part of the rent anyway.

      Oh, by the way, just to rub it in your face: in the USA, the land of the free, where electricity is dirt cheap, on average 1500 people freeze to death every bloody year. In Germany 100 hypothermia deaths would be considered serious.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    4. Re:freezing in the dark by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Informative

      You might want to add that Austria is pretty rich in hydroelectricity due to its rather mountainous landscape with lots of rivers that allow building hydro plants, along with a long standing tradition of using wood as a primary source for heating due to having extensive forests.

      Austria and Iceland, and maybe Sweden, are countries that you should not use to compare energy generation and consumption. It's not that easy for everyone.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:freezing in the dark by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      Austria generates around 2/3rds of its electricity with hydro, by far the easiest and cheapest form of large-scale renewable power. Hydro power generation doesn't vary between day and night; daily weather conditions do not affect it (their plants do produce less in winter though). Also, at the moment, hydro is pretty much the only solution we have to the big problem that plagues any large deployment of other renewable power sources: energy storage. That means having a lot of hydro facilities affects the economics of your solar and wind farms too, in a big way. If you want to compare how countries are doing on renewables or how cheaply they are able to generate it, you do have to account for hydro capacity as it is a huge factor. My own country's capacity sadly is pretty much zero at the moment, though there are plans to dam and drain parts of the North Sea: not useful for generating energy, but it can be used to store it.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    6. Re:freezing in the dark by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Informative

      Germany is so sustainable that they don't do stupid things like try and inefficiently heat houses with electricity. No one freezes to death, actually the houses are quite warm, well insulated and have very low running costs. While the cost of power is high the average consumption of a German house is half that of the USA.

      By the way I am paying 0.24EUR / kWh which converts to 26c/kWh not the 35c/kWh you quote.

      Congratulations, you're paying more for electricity than we are. Are you freezing to death?

    7. Re:freezing in the dark by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It's also about how the numbers are reported. I don't know anyone who's paying more than 30c (US) / kWh. Most pay closer to 25c/kWh.

    8. Re:freezing in the dark by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      Whence did you get the strange idea that electrical heating is widely used over here? Moreover, Germany is not a very cold country and many houses are insulated quite well because upgrading insulation was sponsored by the government a while ago. The typical heating bill for a rented apartment (that's how the majority of Germans live) is about 700 EUR a year and quite a bit less than that if the house is insulated and it is paid as a part of the rent anyway.

      Oh, by the way, just to rub it in your face: in the USA, the land of the free, where electricity is dirt cheap, on average 1500 people freeze to death every bloody year. In Germany 100 hypothermia deaths would be considered serious.

      Actually, the north of Germany can be pretty bloody cold in the winter. It used to be that large parts of the Baltic froze over, the Firth of Kiel for example used to freeze over pretty regularly and did so as recently as the winter of 1995/6.

    9. Re:freezing in the dark by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      I am originally from Rostock ;-)
      Can't really call it cold, though. Lived in Finland for a year, now that was cold.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    10. Re:freezing in the dark by Sique · · Score: 1

      Austria only generates 40% of its energy with hydro, another 30% are other renewables like biomass or wind.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    11. Re:freezing in the dark by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 1

      in the USA, the land of the free, where electricity is dirt cheap, on average 1500 people freeze to death every bloody year

      And I'm sure this has everything to do with electricity costs and not that the US doesn't institutionalize its homeless population anymore, right?

    12. Re:freezing in the dark by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      And I'm sure this has everything to do with electricity costs and not that the US doesn't institutionalize its homeless population anymore, right?

      Depends on what you call an institution. In the US a homeless person is more likely to be sent to a prison or jail facility than a homeless shelter if they are mentally ill (and many homeless are mentally ill). But that also brings up another point in that Germany tends to make sure that fewer people are homeless with their social safety network.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    13. Re:freezing in the dark by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      The typical heating bill for a rented apartment (that's how the majority of Germans live) is about 700 EUR a year and quite a bit less than that if the house is insulated and it is paid as a part of the rent anyway.

      So, for a "rented apartment" they pay a higher heating bill than I do for my 3500 square foot house?

      Impressssssiiiivvvveeee.

    14. Re:freezing in the dark by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      You seriously didn't know that fuel cost in Germany is generally much higher? That is why far less energy is wasted over here.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    15. Re:freezing in the dark by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      The electric bills for private end customers are indeed high. But the spot and long term market prices for large customers (industry etc) have fallen to record low levels.

      Translation: the German government takes vast amounts of money from private consumers in order to subsidize big corporations, while driving up overall prices with an inefficient energy policy that buys large parts of its energy abroad.

      I don't see anything positive in this.

    16. Re:freezing in the dark by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      Indeed, which makes you wonder - are all Germany heavy industrial goods dumped onto world markets? I'm not being a troll, but asking an interesting question.

    17. Re:freezing in the dark by Gussington · · Score: 1

      with some of the most expensive electric bills in the industrialized world

      This scared me.

      about 35 cents/kWh.

      I'm in Australia, my peak usage charge is 48c/kwh, add in GST and it's just under 53c/kwh. And we use mostly coal that we dig out of the ground ourselves.
      The strongest correlation to cost has very little to with generation type and more to do with poor administration of essential services.

  4. hydro-electric by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Hydroelectric isn't renewable. Sediment fills up the dams over time, and they are done. See for example:

    The 200-foot high Matilija Dam (left, photo courtesy of Matilija Coalition), has completely filled in with sediment in only thirty years. It has been decommissioned and the process of removing the dam and restoring the river has begun.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:hydro-electric by jandersen · · Score: 1

      Hydroelectric isn't renewable. Sediment fills up the dams over time, and they are done.

      That sounds to me like a problem that can be solved with good engineering and proper design, just like many of the other environmental problems. I have spent something like a minute thinking about it, and here is what I came up with: sediments settle in slow moving water, so perhaps if the dam had a few outlets near the bottom, it would create a fast moving bottom layer without compromising the overall power generation? And if I, with no expert knowledge, can think of what may well be a plausible way to address the issue, how much more could a proper team of engineers come up with, if they tried? I'm a bit fed up with people always rejecting things out of hand; there's a danger in that too - somebody else is going to find a solution and profit from it.

    2. Re:hydro-electric by ISayWeOnlyToBePolite · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hydroelectric isn't renewable. Sediment fills up the dams over time, and they are done. See for example:

      The 200-foot high Matilija Dam (left, photo courtesy of Matilija Coalition), has completely filled in with sediment in only thirty years. It has been decommissioned and the process of removing the dam and restoring the river has begun.

      RTFA!

      Scientific studies predict that without the reservoir, sediment deposits in the main channel upstream of the dam could be flushed out in as little as five years (CEA). The actual time is dependent on the future hydrologic events occurring in the Colorado River Basin.

      But still it ,might not have been a good place for a dam, but you can't generalize this to all dams. The Lake Homs Dam was opened in 284 AD and is still running "Remarkably, the reservoir has suffered very little silting since" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... so when they eventually have to remove it to flush out the silt, I'm pretty sure it has paid for that and the reconstruction. What the average lifespan for a dam is, i have no idea.

    3. Re:hydro-electric by blkhawk · · Score: 1

      Yes, but other Power generating dams have been generating power for over 100 years. I bet the sediment problem is only really bad in certain places and can be controlled in others.
      Here is a damn I know of running since 1914:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    4. Re:hydro-electric by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      I think the video of the Condit Dam drain down before demolition is great to watch. A concrete dam that was silted up, they set charges at the bottom, inside the dam to blow a hole through it. Apparently the silt is great for marine estuary health.

      Also, how operators almost lost Glen Canyon dam from some bad policy decisions is pretty interesting due to the insights into spillway cavitation and what you can glean from what is going on over at Orville dam.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    5. Re:hydro-electric by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      30 years is a long time for a power plant. I'd be very surprised if any of the solar or wind farms were still operational after three decades.

      And there are hydro plants in operation that have been built nearly a century ago.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:hydro-electric by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That sounds to me like a problem that can be solved with good engineering and proper design, just like many of the other environmental problems. I have spent something like a minute thinking about it.......

      Engineers have been thinking about the problem for decades and haven't solved it. What are the chances you solved it with little thought?

      And if I, with no expert knowledge, can think of what may well be a plausible way to address the issue, how much more could a proper team of engineers come up with, if they tried?

      See this and this.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:hydro-electric by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      That sounds to me like a problem that can be solved with good engineering and proper design, just like many of the other environmental problems. I have spent something like a minute thinking about it.......

      Engineers have been thinking about the problem for decades and haven't solved it. What are the chances you solved it with little thought?

      And if I, with no expert knowledge, can think of what may well be a plausible way to address the issue, how much more could a proper team of engineers come up width, if they tried?

      See this and this.

      XKCD spot on as usual.

    8. Re:hydro-electric by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Just install a giant agitator the size of the reservoir over it, powered by the dam. That's what I do with sugar in my coffee.

      Problem solved!

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    9. Re:hydro-electric by swillden · · Score: 2

      That sounds to me like a problem that can be solved with good engineering and proper design, just like many of the other environmental problems. I have spent something like a minute thinking about it.......

      Engineers have been thinking about the problem for decades and haven't solved it. What are the chances you solved it with little thought?

      Try closer to a millenium... and they have solved it, in more or less exactly the way jandersen suggested.

      Engineers have been aware of the [silting] problem for centuries. A dam built in Spain in 1394 is still operating because it was built with a gate at its base so sediment can be flushed out. Some modern dams, including the giant Three Gorges Dam in China, incorporate similar systems. But American engineers, while ingenious at storing and moving water, essentially ignored sediment.

      Source: http://www.hcn.org/issues/43.6...

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    10. Re:hydro-electric by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

      Wow, never expected to find little local Ojai things like Matilija Dam mentioned on Slashdot. :-)

      Not visible in the photo in that article (which apparently was taken during an unusually wet season; I've never seen the dam overflowing like that before) is the interesting graffiti painted on the dam in support of its long-impending demolition.

      The dam is so silted up that most days you can see reeds growing out of the surface of the water. (Pics online I can find don't seem to show this, as they all seem to have been taken during times when the reservoir was unusually full of water).

      Also, the dam is a major cause of beach erosion at the mouth of the Ventura River that Matilija Creek empties into, as the silt backed up behind the dam would normally have washed out to the river mouth to replenish the beaches around the delta there.

      --
      -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
      "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
    11. Re:hydro-electric by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Engineers have been thinking about the problem for decades and haven't solved it. What are the chances you solved it with little thought?

      Not me, but every other Dam engineer/shipping channel operator/harbour authority that is aware of a process called dredging already have solutions for this.
      Maybe the challenge in this case is not engineering but economic or political?

    12. Re:hydro-electric by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Hey, you solved it, why don't you call the Glenn Canyon Institute and tell them what they missed?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    13. Re:hydro-electric by Gussington · · Score: 1

      Hey, you solved it, why don't you call the Glenn Canyon Institute and tell them what they missed?

      Reading is not your strong point huh?

    14. Re:hydro-electric by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yes, actually it is, provably so.
      You writing ability sucks, though, and I will give you help. Instead of just putting out insults, which you did, try something like this:

      "Good sir, I quote you this sentence from the link, which apparently you missed. Here it is: "XXXXXXXX"

      If say something like that, you won't look like a complete incompetent fool.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    15. Re:hydro-electric by Gussington · · Score: 1

      You writing ability sucks, though, and...

      Sweet.

    16. Re:hydro-electric by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      You might as well admit you don't have an argument about the damn dams. Because clearly you don't. You want to change the topic.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  5. Re:Nuke the Nazis by shilly · · Score: 2

    Much as I dislike Bannon, I do think that's a bit of an over-reaction

  6. Why are the called "renewables"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They are not. Are they suggesting that we can make a new sun? It is misleading to call is something it is not.

    1. Re:Why are the called "renewables"? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Ok, let's call it "probably being available for longer than fossil fuels"? Doubt that newspapers will like it, it doesn't really make a good headline.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Why are the called "renewables"? by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      Calling it fusion power would be more correct, but even more misleading.

  7. This is a despite the german Goverments efforts by blkhawk · · Score: 1

    Sadly all this is despite the German governments best efforts. For a few years recently they really tried to limit the growth of renewables. At least when it comes to small and medium network-connected installations. For small installations the credits got rather abruptly reduced. Slightly bigger Installations (>10kw) now have to pay VAT on the power they generate and use themselves. The overall amount of installed renewables got Hard-limited (I assume new installations wont get approved once its reached).

    The way the credit system for the renewables works also causes really high electricity costs for private households and small businesses. Basially the cheaper electrical power on the spot market gets the more expensive the electricity gets. This is made worse by market effects cause baseline power plants to run for power export purposes. Running the plants causes the price of power on the national spot market to go actually negative but the power is then actually sold at a profit to neighboring countries.

    What makes the prices even higher is the fact that big users of electricity get an exception from paying into the renewable credit scheme. In fact the more power you use the easier this is to get.

    The increasing cost is used by the Government to sell the reduction in credits and the limiting of renewable installations to the voters.

    Anway wikipedia has the bare facts if you want to read it:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    I really think that germany now needs a energy storage promotion law but it seems like the current government won't really do anything in that direction. Instead there is talk of really stupid "smart" grid schemes backed by smart meters.

    1. Re:This is a despite the german Goverments efforts by ledow · · Score: 1

      I still don't see how paying people to deliver some highly variable trickles of electricity back to "the grid" is in any way efficient.

      Subsidising people to do so was necessary to start it, precisely because of this, and they quickly disappeared.

      I'm not sure how you can justify, quite literally, paying people for - potentially - ONE SINGLE UNIT of electricity if they're using up everything they want to, at an odd voltage, which has to be stepped-up, phase-shifted, transported back to the grid in a measured manner etc.

      The only way it works is that the subsidies were at one stage cheaper than the associated "fine" for not doing environmentally-friendly things. These are all artificial measures. We're paying people to do things so we don't get into trouble, not because they're feeding back useful stuff.

      Sure, en-masse it works. It always would to an extent. It generates employment, support industries, land taxes, etc. etc. but everything in-between and quite a chunk of it is goodwill payments rather than actual practical cost of electricity.

      And you're expecting the energy companies to "co-operate" when you're destroying their business by farming out their job to some guy with a shed and a panel.

      Eventually, the energy price rises caused by the business effect of shutting down nuclear, etc. and forcing them to clean everyone's pittances of electricity and feed them back to the grid AND PAY THEM for it will just cause massive inflation in the market.

      And when they no longer want to run the backups, you will lose them and have nothing to fall back on (or the fallback will cost you a fortune because it's not used very often but has to be always-available).

      Currently, people are paying to be green, via subsidies (i.e. from taxes), increase prices (e.g. importing energy, etc.) or otherwise.

      One day that will go away.

    2. Re:This is a despite the german Goverments efforts by blkhawk · · Score: 1

      The up stepping phase shifting and "delivering" is all done buy the owner of the solar installation. Its a basic feature of any connected inverter.
      As for nuclear, I am all for it - as long as the company running it finance the disposal of the waste and run the power stations safely and take out insurance against possible nuclear accidents.

      Currently they do none of it. The disposal of waste is payed for by the tax payer. The companys get around the requirements of keeping profits back against the future costly tear down of the power stations (that has to happen eventually no matter what) by basically mortgaging said power station against he funds for tearing it down. So in the end you will have to pay the tearing down of the station from the less than worthless radioactive hulk of the power station. (I am oversimplifying a bit what they actually are doing is moving all their business except for nuclear to new companies while the stations are nominally worth something).
      As for Insurance - no insurer takes them because the costs of a big accident are just too high - so again the taxpayer has to potentially pay for that.

      Those are just the indirect subsidies that power companys get.

      with the direct subsidies power companies got you could finance the renewables wholesale several times over.
       

  8. Impressive... by jez9999 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "To be clear, this is impressive even by Germany's progressive standards."

    No it isn't. It just shows their ongoing idiocy re: nuclear power. They could've reduced carbon (and other) emissions to zero by now if they'd increased nuclear output.

    1. Re:Impressive... by GuB-42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, I wouldn't call a country shutting down nuclear power plants and building new coal plants "progressive".

      If you look here : https://www.electricitymap.org... you'll see that most of the times, Germany is not that good. Right now it is at 414 gCO2/kWh, which is worse than the US (388) and 6 times worse than France (66). Ontario, Sweden and Norway are even better but they have the advantage of a high hydro capacity.
      What all the good players have in common : nuclear power of course.

    2. Re:Impressive... by swillden · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I wouldn't call a country shutting down nuclear power plants and building new coal plants "progressive".

      If you look here : https://www.electricitymap.org... you'll see that most of the times, Germany is not that good. Right now it is at 414 gCO2/kWh, which is worse than the US (388) and 6 times worse than France (66). Ontario, Sweden and Norway are even better but they have the advantage of a high hydro capacity. What all the good players have in common : nuclear power of course.

      And those numbers don't even take into account another element of Germany's anti-nuke idiocy: the focus on renewables has created very high electricity prices in Germany, which has contributed greatly to Germany lagging behind the rest of the rich world in adopting electric vehicles. Meanwhile, nuclear-powered France (with electricity prices half of Germany's) is the hottest market in Europe for EVs. EVs are sold in small enough numbers everywhere that they don't yet make a significant difference in carbon emissions, but the electrification of transport is still a very important issue now, because as the emissions of industry and electricity generation fall transportation threatens to become the primary emitter, and the conversion of millions of privately-owned vehicles is going to take a great deal of time. It's important to push the transition now.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    3. Re:Impressive... by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I wouldn't call a country shutting down nuclear power plants and building new coal plants "progressive".

      Yeah, remember that people who screech that loudest about being "progressive" are usually the most regressive people you'll meet.

  9. Nuclear Fission is a distraction ... by Qbertino · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ... and this proves it too.

    Fission is not cost effective and only works with massive amounts of taxpayers money. And the only real effect it has is putting power in to the hands of few to the disadvantage of many.

    The world as such should decommision Fission ASAP, just like Germany is doing. The next Tchernobyl/Fukushima Fuckup is bound to happen, so we might aswell slim down our chances of that happening ASAP.

    My 2 eurocents.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
    1. Re:Nuclear Fission is a distraction ... by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ... and this proves it too.

      Fission is not cost effective and only works with massive amounts of taxpayers money.

      Yeah, unlike solar and wind <eyeroll>

      In case you missed it, Germans pay the highest amount for electricity in the world due to their solar/wind investments, which provide less than 10% of their power. They make up for it by burning the world's dirtiest coal. I know, doesn't fit the narrative...

    2. Re:Nuclear Fission is a distraction ... by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Fission is not cost effective and only works with massive amounts of taxpayers money.

      Fission is quite cost effective per se. What makes it so costly and what has caused the past accidents is overregulation. It's because of overregulation that the early generations of nuclear plants never got replaced with safer, cleaner modern technology.

  10. Yes they do count that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And in the balance of trade, the Euros are in Germany's favour, since they produce more at peak time and therefore peak price, and buy at low demand, hence low prices.

    Germany used X GWh that month. They produced 0.85X GWh from renewables.

    What difference does it make, in a free market, where they sold the GWhs?

  11. Not bad but far from being good by a_claudiu · · Score: 3, Informative

    So in the weekend on the perfect day when solar and wind are at max we are covering 85% of residential consumption.
    In the European Union household electric energy consumption is about 30% rest being the industry and services. Considering Germany industrial sector it will be safe to say the domestic energy consumption will be around 20% of total electric energy consumption.

    So in a perfect weekend Germany was able to provide less than one fifth of electricity consumption during the week.

    To cover the industry renewable capacity will need to increase at least five times to work in perfect conditions. Considering the fact the best spots for solar and wind have been already used (unless they were stupid to chose the worst locations in the first place) we are going to start the law of diminished returns.

    Just adding that EU goal of being totally green and use only renewable resources is made partially by relocating production to China with their record of being "clean" I see a long way to go to reduce CO2.
     

    1. Re:Not bad but far from being good by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      My two posts above provide actual numbers that back your point;

      https://hardware.slashdot.org/...

    2. Re:Not bad but far from being good by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Actually the best places are not already chosen.
      Most of the solar power comes from house holds with roof top installations. House owners decide if they want one. So 90% of the houses or more don't have any and hence all those places are still free.
      Regarding wind, 95% or more of our installations are land based. Again the owners of the land decide, or people who long term rent it, if they want wind power there. So there are thousands of good land based places left.
      OTOH the trend is now to build offshore wind parks. So 99.99% f the coast and the north sea is still completeley free. Obviously the offshore wind parks have the biggest potential in the long run.

      The numbers you were throwing around make no sense anyway. Why don't you google for load curves?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    3. Re:Not bad but far from being good by a_claudiu · · Score: 1

      30% of residential consumption energy I found documents for it. 20% for Germany was just a ballpark number as I did not found statistics for it.
      On the other side I did not consider that 85% was the peak number in the weekend but just considering it as an average.
      My estimates where too conservative if anything ignoring the storage of energy of which nobody speaks about.
      If you are at it just consider switch to electric vehicles which will increase demand further.
      Maybe I'm wrong but I see "this green way" being more polluting than alternative solutions (nuclear). Germany dumps nuclear energy in favor of coal.

    4. Re:Not bad but far from being good by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      On weekends the demand for household electricity is the highest.
      How you want to compare that with the week when everyone is working, is beyond me.
      EVs will 'increase' demand for electricity. But decrease the demand for gasoline.
      I put increase in quotes as renewables provide already right now enough power to charge all cars of germany (if they where EVs) at night ... so worst case our base load increases and moves from 45% to 60%? Who cares when base load is fully covered by renewables?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    5. Re:Not bad but far from being good by a_claudiu · · Score: 1

      During the we you have mainly residential consumption and during the week you add industrial consumption. This is the reason for my assumption.
      EV's will increase the demand on electrical grid. I do not know if a modern coal plant will be more green than a gas engine.
      EV's charged at night? Only wind power?

    6. Re:Not bad but far from being good by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      During week days the residential consumption goes down.
      EVs help mitigating spikes from renewables.
      How EVs charge at night does not matter. Even if they charge from coal it is over 100% more efficient than burning gasoline in an ICE car.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    7. Re:Not bad but far from being good by a_claudiu · · Score: 1

      I did not find statics for week consumption but I tried. Maybe my googlefu is not so strong or data is not easy accessible.
      Despite not being in the industry I tried my best to aggregate data for making sense of the news.
      Looking back at my first post I still consider my estimates very optimistic regarding the advance of renewable energies.

  12. Re:This will reverse when all the cars will be EV by Tranzistors · · Score: 1

    If (when?) the electric cars take off, I guess the charging stations will be available also at the parking lots. If (when?) cars will become automated, they should be able to find charging stations on their own at the middle of the day, when sun is the brightest and traffic is minimal.

  13. Not really 85% of power used by tomhath · · Score: 5, Informative

    Germany used X GWh that month. They produced 0.85X GWh from renewables.

    No they didn't. They touched 85% for an instant when the wind kicked up on a Sunday morning before people got up and increased consumption.

    It wasn't 85% for the month as you imply, and it wasn't even 85% for the weekend as the headline implies.

    1. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Energy systems are only as good as their performance in high demand situations. They must be designed to handle the demand profile and therefore looking at the 'easy' times doesn't reflect the entire picture. Let looks at some other numbers besides that typical "we hit a hit percentage on a spring Sunday when little power was being used" scenario;

      Spot production; (other sources or imports not listed);
      May 8 at 23:30 Solar 0%, Wind 2.1%, Conventional 92%
      May 10 at 1500 Solar 0%, Wind 0.04% Conventional 92%
      These are not outlier moments, these are typical daily occurrences.

      Total Electrical Production January 2017;
      Solar 2%, Wind 7.95%, Conventional 80%


      That is a glimpse of what 300 billion Euro in wind and solar achieves from a system capability standpoint.

    2. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Lets looks at some full day productions percentages (Twh) for Germany;

      Jan 6 2017: Solar=2.2% Wind=7.0% Conv =75.2% T=1.61 Twh
      Jan 8 2017: Solar=0.3% Wind=3.2% Conv=79.0% T=1.46 Twh
      Feb 5 2017: Solar=3.5% Wind=8.9% Conv=71.8% T=1.41 Twh
      Mar 7 2017: Solar=2.8% Wind=6.7% Conv=75.4% T=1.60 Twh
      Apr 4 2017: Solar=8.7% Wind=2.9% Conv=71.3% T=1.51 Twh

      As we can see there are still many days in Germany where wind and solar struggle to provide even 10% of demand, and at times during those days actual contribution is less. I hope these numbers don't surprise anybody. They are exactly what we should expect.

    3. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Energy systems are only as good as their performance in high demand situations.

      Rationing is possible, as in "some power-hungry industries stop when the weather is unusally calm and dark".

      You can keep those occations to a minimum by installing excessive windmills - just stop those that aren't needed at the moment on windy days.

      Most businesses will not be willing to put up with that. The costs would be astronomical.
      "Sorry folks, we have to send you home, the power is out today." So do you pay the people not to work that day? That's a huge hit that company will have to take, and it's an unpredictable one, causing uncertainty and instability in the market. Or do you not pay the people since no work is done? In that case they come after the politicians and demand a more stable energy grid without these outages, natural (no wind) or artificial (rationing).
      Solar and wind work when you pair them with enormous capacitors/batteries to eliminate the rationing situation.

    4. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      I'm also curious about the breakdown of the conventional sources as well. What percentages are imports, how much of that is coal, how much natural gas, nuclear, hydro(?), etc.

    5. Re:Not really 85% of power used by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Nevertheless 30% of Germanies electricity over the cours of a year comes from renewables.
      http://www.spiegel.de/wirtscha...

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    6. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I'm also curious about the breakdown of the conventional sources as well. What percentages are imports, how much of that is coal, how much natural gas, nuclear, hydro(?), etc.

      https://www.energy-charts.de/i...

    7. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Thanks to hydro and biomass. For wind and solar, they are only able to exist on the grid at the levels they do because of coal and gas backing them up.

    8. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Lennie · · Score: 2

      Almost looks like they able to handle the peaks by using renewables ?

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    9. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Solar partially lines up with peaks, although its of little help in the winter. Wind does not line up with peaks at all, there is no correlation. Neither are dispatchable at this point, although if they were to build huge wind overcapacity they could dispatch it a bit, an approach which would also drive up the cost.

    10. Re:Not really 85% of power used by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      Water power is about 1% of germanies power production. Biomass is not much higher.
      That is actually easy to google.

      In an EU wide market, actually spanning over into Mongolia and China, we don't need "backing up".
      However most of the time it is cheaper to power up a local coal plant than to buy power from Russia or Mongolia.

      I simply don't get what your crusade is about.

      Germany over the course of a year produces roughly 30% of its total power via renewables.
      That is a matter of fact.

      Your ranting wont change it, and we will continue until we have 100% covered by renewables. And your ranting wont change that either. So what is your damn point in posting random days where the production of power by wind and solar was particular low?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    11. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      No crusade. I was just presenting facts. You seem to not like them for some reason.

    12. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Uecker · · Score: 1

      Here are some facts.

      2016 Total production in Germany:
      solar: 38 TWh
      wind: 77 TWh
      hydro: 21 TWh
      biomass: 46 TWh

      So solar and wind are huge. And yes, they are intermittent. But fuel saved is fuel saved - this is not difficult to understand. And 38 TWh + 77 TWh = 115 TWh is is a huge a mount of fuel saved. (total production is 650 TWh including net exports 81 TWh - 27 TWh = 54 TWh). By all means, this is a huge success.

    13. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Uecker · · Score: 1

      I agree, looking at peak is nonsense. So is cherry-picking dates.
      How about looking at full year actual production?
      2016
      lignite 150 TWh
      nuclear 85 TWh
      coal 112 TWh
      gas 81 TWh
      oil 6 TWh
      renewables 188 TWh (77 TWh wind and 38 TWh solar)
      others 28 TWh
      exports -81 TWh
      imports 27 TWh

      188 TWh of actual produced electricity from renewables is an impressive number which clearly shows that the energy transition is highly successful. Especially if you consider that it was 72 TWh in 2006 and 23 TWh in 1996.

      Source: http://www.ag-energiebilanzen....

    14. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Wind was 14.4% of generation in 2016. Solar was 6.9%.

    15. Re:Not really 85% of power used by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/...

      I suggest to start reading german sources. No idea where you get you strange numbers from.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    16. Re:Not really 85% of power used by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Those numbers are shown in your link. Look at percentages in chart on page ten. Actually, I was a tad high on Wind. It was 14.2% according to your link. Thanks

    17. Re:Not really 85% of power used by catprog · · Score: 1

      In 2011, the average time it took a facility to conduct a refueling outage was 43 days.
      24 months they must refuel,

      http://neinuclearnotes.blogspo...

      According to those numbers it is 95%.

      Now your problem is 100% for 24x7 is a horrible plant to run your grid 100% on. the grid needs plants that load follow and according to your post nuclear does not do that.

      --
      My Transformation Website
      Kindle Books http://www.catprog.org/rev
      Interactive CYOA http://www.catprog.org/st
  14. Forget the clouds: by Ihlosi · · Score: 1

    > Instead they are installing solar panels in the world's second cloudiest location (the Bering Sea is first). Forget the clouds and just look at the geographic latitude. Germany is closer to the arctic circle than to the nearest tropic.

  15. Well every place is fairly special. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    For one place it might be the abundance of solar. For others the abundance of mountains. Others their tidal shores, or wind.

    The USA being vast gives them absolutely the ability to connect the entire continent and use wind solely and alone, since there will never be a USA that suffers enough loss of all wind resource as to fail to supply demand that is in any way sourced as appropriately supplied as any sane grid would do.

    Insane grid paucity is how California got bilked. And that was with fossil fuels. Nothing stops the power company fucking things up deliberately to generate better profits in the USA because any such regulation would never get past the propaganda against it.

  16. Re:at what price by djinn6 · · Score: 1

    Of all the things to worry about, this is the least worrisome. Birds that learn to avoid the deadly white spinning things will survive. The rest will die. In the future, all birds will know to avoid the deadly white spinning things.

    Oh and power lines do the exact same thing. They've been frying critters since the 1880's.

  17. Not fake news, but agenda news by zerofoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Turns out Germany uses a shit-ton of carbon based energy sources:

    https://www.carbonbrief.org/ho...

    Call me when renewables make a dent in their existing carbon based energy sources.

    Before anyone accuses me of working for the carbon-based energy folks - I have a Model 3 on order - but I have no illusions as to what will be generating the electricity that I will use to charge it. In my area it's mostly Nuclear and Coal.

    I expect more critical thought from Slashdot readers.

    1. Re:Not fake news, but agenda news by Gussington · · Score: 1

      but I have no illusions as to what will be generating the electricity that I will use to charge it. In my area it's mostly Nuclear and Coal.

      Nothing wrong with Nuclear. Once you get past the FUD, this whole debate ceases to exist.

  18. Re:at what price by Max_W · · Score: 1

    Only about 70% of migratory birds are surviving one annual migration at the moment. The mass extinction of birds is currently on the way. Loosing large birds gliding magnificently above a town is the same loss as loosing the trees, bees, rivers, etc.

    Limiting power consumption via LED lamps, lighter vehicles, smaller heated (air-conditioned) areas in houses by smarter architecture, etc. could produce more than enough electricity for decades without making this wonderful planet ugly.

  19. ToD: What's mine is mine, what's your's is mine by Latent+Heat · · Score: 1

    Hey look, with ToD the peak rates are considerably more, but look at how much less your off-peak rates -- savings!

    Whatever your current usage pattern, it ends up costing more than what you are doing now. Only after insane time shifting do you even break even. When it was offered to me, ToD was a scheme to raise my rates.

    But that's the point of these schemes -- to raise revenue.

  20. Meanwhile... by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    Thanks to the E.U., the rest of Europe slips further into the stone age.

  21. Re:at what price by djinn6 · · Score: 1
    I don't hate birds (with the exception of the one that shat on my lunch that time), but your level of misinformation is astounding. Why don't we break down this bullshit.

    Only about 70% of migratory birds are surviving one annual migration at the moment.

    In 2003, wind turbines killed 33,000 birds a year. Glass windows killed 97 million.

    The mass extinction of birds is currently on the way.

    Due to habitat loss. Wind turbines don't even register on the scale.

    Loosing large birds gliding magnificently above a town is the same loss as loosing the trees, bees, rivers, etc.

    That's "Losing". To your point: trees are necessary for temperature control and erosion resistance. Bees are necessary to pollinate fruit trees. Rivers power dams and harbors fish. Large birds... they eat small animals, just like foxes, cats, snakes, wolves and bears. They're not necessary.

    Limiting power consumption via LED lamps,

    CFL's, which people already use, are almost as efficient (8-12% vs. 8-15%). Lighting is only 7% of electric usage anyways.

    lighter vehicles,

    99.85% of cars don't even use electricity.

    smaller heated (air-conditioned) areas in houses

    Heating is usually natural gas. But even if you include it, residential heating plus air conditioning only accounts for 6% of all energy use.

    ...could produce more than enough electricity for decades

    Yeah no. Not when the world population is set to reach 8 billion by 2025 (a 14% growth).

  22. Re:at what price by Max_W · · Score: 1

    Here is the quote from the scientific source: https://www.sciencedaily.com/r... "Worldwide, such facilities have been responsible for the deaths of 140,000 to 328,000 birds and 500,000 to 1.6 million bats, raising questions about their effects on population sustainability."

    Sure cats and windows kill times more, and this problem is being addressed too. But wind turbines kill large valuable rare birds. This is the issue. Again the quote from the same article of 2016: "Eagles tend to use that habitat around the turbines. It's windy there, so they can save energy and soar,..."

    As for the CFL lamps, - they contain toxic mercury. They are not on sale anymore, it is LED lamps nowadays.

  23. Average temperatures by AdamCox3526 · · Score: 1

    It's easy not to need AC when the summer averages 22C (73F). NY summer average is slightly higher, without the open air to allow cooling breezes. Most of the US has much higher temperatures in the summer. Kansas averages 32C (90F) and usually has a high humidity too.

  24. Yes, but coal is where it's at! by kimgkimg · · Score: 1

    Coal's making a resurgence, so this is just a temporary thing. [/s]

  25. Fission is renewable too by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    Contrary to popular belief, fission is renewable too. Just wait 2 billion years or so until the Sun explodes and scatters the heavyish byproducts out into the void where they will eventually collect into a dust cloud, light up as a new a star, and get reprocessed back into Uranium. One more explosion to form an earth type planet complete with whales, and there ya go, fresh new fission fuel, go ahead and dig it up.

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  26. Most likely not true. by jacekm · · Score: 1

    Highly unlikely this is true. It is possible that for a split second during national holiday in the middle of low power demand they have touched whatever article claims.

  27. Re:at what price by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    "Eagles tend to use that habitat around the turbines. It's windy there, so they can save energy and soar,..."
    That quote of yours does not make any sense.
    Wind turbines are either at sea: there is nothing any eagle wants, unless it is a fish eagle, but for that the turbines are usually to far out, or they are placed on farmer fields: nothing lives there that is hunted by eagles.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  28. Re:at what price by Max_W · · Score: 1

    When you see a soaring eagle it is flying usually not for hunting but for manifesting itself for different reasons, - finding a mating partner, guarding its space, etc. At least I was told so at a training course by a professional ornithologist.

    And an eagle is not the only big protected bird, there are other endangered species.

  29. Re:at what price by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    And none of those big bird is flying anywhere close to a modern windmill, they have no reason for that ...
    If you would complain about crows or other birds living in human farmland, you had a point.

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  30. Re:Won't work in the USA by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    No, this is a silly example of American exceptionalism.

    The absolute figures are irrelevant: only the densities matter. If you think otherwise, then divide up the country into Germany size chunks, solve those and you'll find it's solved for the whole country.

    Now about population density, it varies in the US. Sure in the middle of Montanna, you've got 1 person and 3 cows per square parsec, but in big cities, the population is way way higher than even rural areas of Europe with much higher internet speeds.

    There's no excuse for the cities to be crap.

    Likewise, Mr North Dakota Survivalist's hut off the grid is never going to get grid electricity all the way from El Paso, but so what? How much solar could you get from (say) the land within 100 miles of the Dallas city limits relative to the energy use of Dallas.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  31. Re:at what price by djinn6 · · Score: 1
    Your "scientific source" is more like an environmental alarmist piece. 140,000 to 328,000 birds is over the lifetime of the installation, which "is one of the oldest wind farms in the country and one of the largest in the world". It's been around for 36 years.

    More realistic numbers from Wikipedia:

    1300 raptors are killed annually, among them 70 golden eagles

    Not tiny numbers, but nothing like what you're suggesting.

    The small turbines used at Altamont are dangerous to various raptors... As of 2010, a settlement has been reached... Nearly half of the smaller turbines will be replaced by newer, more bird-friendly models.

    And the problem doesn't even apply to new turbines we're building now.

  32. Cherry picked aberration by kenh · · Score: 1

    However, while the end-of-April weekend was an aberration, the hope is that it won't be for too much longer. According to Patrick Graichen of the country's sustainability-focused Agora Energiewende Initiative, German renewable energy percentages in the mid-80s should be "completely normal" by the year 2030.

    This weekend is at the intersection "not hot enough to run air conditioning" and "not cold enough to run heat" (both of which are largely electric in Germany, I believe), and being on the weekend countless offices and businesses were closed, driving demand way down.

    This interesting report will be the year-long daily percentage of Germany's power needs that are supplied by local (generated within Germany's borders, not imported). Once renewables are able to provide, consistently, every day for 12 months, a minimum of 50% of Germany's power needs, this is nothing more than a mildly interesting milestone.

    In 13 years it is hoped this self-described 'aberration' will become the norm, which makes this story premature, and as I often say, "Premature is rarely a good thing!"

    --
    Ken
    1. Re:Cherry picked aberration by catprog · · Score: 1

      This weekend is at the intersection "not hot enough to run air conditioning" and "not cold enough to run heat" (both of which are largely electric in Germany, I believe), and being on the weekend countless offices and businesses were closed, driving demand way down.

      This interesting report will be the year-long daily percentage of Germany's power needs that are supplied by local (generated within Germany's borders, not imported). Once renewables are able to provide, consistently, every day for 12 months, a minimum of 50% of Germany's power needs, this is nothing more than a mildly interesting milestone.

      In 13 years it is hoped this self-described 'aberration' will become the norm, which makes this story premature, and as I often say, "Premature is rarely a good thing!"

      Are you talking about power or electricity?

      If you are talking about just electricity , why does renewables have to provide 50% of every day's electricity when non-renewables don't do that today?

      (current annual figure by the way are 31.6% electricity and 12.5 power according to wikipedia)

      --
      My Transformation Website
      Kindle Books http://www.catprog.org/rev
      Interactive CYOA http://www.catprog.org/st
    2. Re: Cherry picked aberration by kenh · · Score: 1

      Are you talking about power or electricity?

      Power.

      If you are talking about just electricity , why does renewables have to provide 50% of every day's electricity when non-renewables don't do that today?

      I'm confused, there are, AFAIK, only two forms of energy, renewables and non-renewables, so are you saying renewables already supply greater than 50% of electricity needs every day of the year?

      (current annual figure by the way are 31.6% electricity and 12.5 power according to wikipedia)

      Again, confused - 31.6% of electricity generated by renewables or non-renewables? 12.5% of power generated by renewables or non-renewables?

      My point was that supply the majority of Germany's needs two days out of 365, when offices, factories are closed (weekend) and when most households in country are running neither heaters nor a/c (spring) isn't by itself meaningful... the Germans themselves called it an aberration, not expecting it to be the norm for 13 more years - what exactly are we celebrating?

      --
      Ken
    3. Re: Cherry picked aberration by catprog · · Score: 1

      I was saying if renewables provide more then 50% of electricity on one day, then non-renewables must provide less then 50% on that day.

      31.6% annual electricity and 12.5 annual power from renewables.

      --
      My Transformation Website
      Kindle Books http://www.catprog.org/rev
      Interactive CYOA http://www.catprog.org/st
  33. Re: "You can't have what Germany has without the h by SocietyoftheFist · · Score: 1

    The actual word "nazi" didn't appear so the ruling is that the thread can continue.

  34. Way to go! by iq145 · · Score: 1

    This is an inspiration! Meanwhile, in other news: "A news report says Japan's tsunami-ravaged nuclear plant was so unprepared for the disaster that workers had to bring protective gear and instruction manuals from elsewhere and borrow equipment from a contractor. The report, released by operator Tokyo Electric Company, is based on interviews of workers and plant data. It portrays chaos in a desperate and ultimately unsuccessful battle to protect the Fukushima plant from meltdown, and shows that workers struggled with unfamiliar equipment." "Scientists have found traces of radioactivity in fish off the California coast that migrated from the waters off of Japan, site of the Fukushima nuclear reactor disaster of 2011, the San Francisco Chronicle reports. The researchers say the evidence is unequivocal. The young tuna were found to be contaminated with two radioactive forms of the element cesium from Fukushima." http://content.usatoday.com/co... "Japanese whalers caught 2 animals along the northern coast that had traces of radiation from leaks at a damaged nuclear power plant, officials said. 2 of 17 minke whales caught off the Pacific coast of Hokkaido showed traces of radioactive cesium, both about 1/20th of the legal limit, fisheries officials said. They are the first whales thought to have been affected by radiation leaked from the Fukushima nuclear plant since it was hit by a 3/11/11 earthquake and tsunami."