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Is Amazon's AWS Hiring 'Demolishing The Cult Of Youth'? (redmonk.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the engineers-vs-ageism dept.

Tech analyst James Governor argues that Amazon's cloud business is "demolishing the cult of youth." It just announced it is hiring James Gosling, one of the original inventors of Java... Meanwhile James Hamilton continues to completely kick ass in compute, network, and data center design for AWS... He's in his 50s. Tim Bray, one of the inventors of XML, joined Amazon in 2014. He's another Sun alumni. He's 61 now. He still codes. When you sit down with one of the AWS engineering teams you're sitting down with grownups... Adrian Cockcroft joined AWS in October 2016. He graduated in 1982, not 2002. He is VP Cloud Architecture Strategy at AWS, a perfect role for someone that helped drive Netflix's transition from on-prem Java hairball to serious cloud leadership.

Great engineering is not maths -- it involves tradeoffs, wisdom and experience... The company puts such a premium on independent groups working fast and making their own decisions it requires a particular skillset, which generally involves a great deal of field experience. A related trend is hiring seasoned marketing talent from the likes of IBM. Some other older companies have older distinguished engineers because they grew up with the company. AWS is explicitly bringing that experience in. It's refreshing to the see a different perspective on value.
In a later post the analyst acknowledges engineering managers are generally older than their reports, but adds that "If AWS sees value in hiring engineering leadership from folks that are frankly a bit older than the norm in the industry, isn't that worth shining a light on?" In response to the article, XML inventor Tim Bray suggested a new acronym: GaaS. "Geezers as a service," while Amazon CTO Werner Vogels tweeted "There is no compression algorithm for experience."

94 of 173 comments (clear)

  1. what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Not age discriminating is bad now?

    1. Re: what? by thundercattt · · Score: 1

      Yep. Apparently not hiring the entitled kids is wrong.

    2. Re:what? by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      Ambition and Vigor vs. Strategy and Experience. A large tech company really should have a good balance across experience levels for tech workers.

      Having an nearly all older workforce is
      1. Expensive
      2. Often closed to new ideas and methods.
      3. More effort to retrain.

      Having a nearly all young workforce
      1. A lot of rebuilding old tech that they think is new.
      2. A lot of trying to outdo each other
      3. Lacks long term vision and support.

      A proper balance. Is where the older people are invigorated by the newer envelopes. And the younger ones can have a role model on how to do their job. Out of the box ideas are given and tried and true method are followed.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:what? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Tons of counter examples, so many that you can't even make a good stereotype out of it. Young kids who refuse to learn anything new, or who can't, outnumber those who can in my experience. They don't have the experience necessary to learn something new, they only know what they learned in class, if you're lucky enough to not get someone special who decided education was optional. The younger workers are demanding higher salaries too, especially if they came from an overfunded started. They all need training of course, more training than experience workers, no one comes out of school or an entry level job suddenly knowing what the job needs.

    4. Re:what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not hearing the young workers being hired though. The Silicon Valley is largely devoid of under-40 US citizen workers. Large chunks of graduating classes from the nations top universities in STEM fields can't find jobs.

    5. Re:what? by hupa · · Score: 1
      I didn't see anything in the article saying it was a bad thing...

      Some other older companies have older distinguished engineers because they grew up with the company. AWS is explicitly bringing that experience in. It’s refreshing to the see a different perspective on value.

    6. Re:what? by BeemanIT · · Score: 1

      Something I've noticed is that many companies don't train from within their company. The company I work for, I rarely see any entry level positions in any area unless it's helpdesk. Most positions that are in other areas are tier 2 or tier 3 which are considered more "senior" type positions where I'm at. Just seems like a gap between the young and the experienced.

    7. Re: what? by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      I have experienced this, and it's not restricted to devs.

  2. Did I hear that correctly? by Glasswire · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's a debate about hiring JAMES GOSLING because he's too old? Seriously?

    1. Re:Did I hear that correctly? by MangoCats · · Score: 2

      Notice that he doesn't work for Google.

      Yes, Google has hired some people over 40, but demographically speaking (number hired vs number available in the job seeking pool) they are heavily slanted toward the younger generation.

    2. Re:Did I hear that correctly? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. Hiring older superstars who are well established and widely recognized in their field is hardly breaking a lance for the fight against age discrimination or the "cult of youth". Let us know when they start hiring coders in their 40s or 50s who are not superstars but regular joes who are nevertheless competent, with up to date skills, and who come with a lot of experience.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    3. Re:Did I hear that correctly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Notice that he doesn't work for Google.

      Yes, Google has hired some people over 40, but demographically speaking (number hired vs number available in the job seeking pool) they are heavily slanted toward the younger generation.

      Over 40 here and I won't even submit my resume. Not because I don't think I can get hired, that's not even a consideration, but because I just don't give a fuck about working in the SV culture. Been there's done that; let some other poor bastards do that and participate in the agile drama and all night coding marathons--fuck that shit, I have better things to do with my time.

    4. Re: Did I hear that correctly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That time is now. If you have the skills, youll get in. Worked for me!

    5. Re: Did I hear that correctly? by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      The over 40 people that worked for Google were on contract when I worked on a google project as a contractor. The youngest person, a woman in her 30's, was clearly overwhelmed by various things that typically happen to cutting edge tech projects. She was an employee and was let go at the end of the program. The boss I work for is in his 50's and experienced and dedicated. He would have done a way better job in her position. He is so good at his job a large part from his 30 years experience.

    6. Re: Did I hear that correctly? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      Well, my last gig was one where I got to combine project management, business analysis, architecture with coding and tinkering. And my current gig is shaping up to be the same, so it's all good. At my current client there are actually a ton of older and very knowledgable techies around, which is great but it's also the exception in my experience. A lot of employers (and people in general) look at you funny if you're over 40 and still a techie. They don't see experience, they see a loser, because if you weren't a loser you'd be in management or enterprise architecture by now.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    7. Re:Did I hear that correctly? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      There's a debate about hiring JAMES GOSLING because he's too old? Seriously?

      Was that the issue? Last I read, Gosling was starting up his own company - that story was here in /. A week ago, he joined AWS. But legends like him are not the people who either risk age discrimination, or can't have successful businesses of their own. That issue is germane to the vast majority of Baby Boomers & Gen X'ers who are still in tech today.

      I do think it's a welcome trend. That way, both age groups (Baby Boomers/Gen X'ers and Gen Y'ers/Millenials) have their own niches in the market

    8. Re:Did I hear that correctly? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      He left Google a year ago to join Liquid Robotics, and just last week, joined AWS. He's already been in Google. Both he & Eric Schmidt worked @ Sun, so he'd have had no problems getting a job in Google, which he actually did.

    9. Re: Did I hear that correctly? by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      Truth.

    10. Re: Did I hear that correctly? by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      If by skills you mean being a 20-something Indian non-citizen, sure. I've interviewed with Amazon and Google three times each. It was clear each time that I never had a chance, that they were going out of their way to disqualify me.

  3. Now it's discrimination against young people? by JoeyRox · · Score: 2

    Soon the only people you'll be allowed to hire without being acused of discrimination is anyone who is exactly 32.54 years old.

    1. Re:Now it's discrimination against young people? by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 2

      Think of an oared slave galley. The age of the guy pounding the drum to keep the tempo is irrelevant. It's still the young and strong who are chained to the oars.

    2. Re:Now it's discrimination against young people? by MangoCats · · Score: 1

      It has been discrimination against young people since times long forgotten.

      Outside of tech hiring, the young are still on the short end of the opportunities. There was a brief period in the late 60s / early 70s where that changed for a bit - the WWII vets doting on their kids, I suspect. Seems that little anomaly has passed and we're back to using kids as grist for the mill again.

    3. Re:Now it's discrimination against young people? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your definition of young is so funny.

      Age discrimination starts around 40 in the top of the field and is in full strength by 50 even in small shops.

      The supreme court gutted protection against age discrimination in 2009.

      Everyone gets old. Only the geniuses and the lucky won't be discriminated against.

      And it's dumb. Because young people make the same mistakes, are much more likely to leave sooner (no roots, building their resume), have less loyalty than the current older people all did themselves only 15 to 25 years before.

      Which results in losses of hundreds of millions of dollars for companies. Over and over.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    4. Re:Now it's discrimination against young people? by doom · · Score: 1

      Soon the only people you'll be allowed to hire without being acused of discrimination is anyone who is exactly 32.54 years old.

      I would like to take this opportunity to thank our conservative friends for volunteering to wear flashing lights and a sign stating "I am a conservative idiot.". It makes it much easier to identify who is worth talking to.

    5. Re:Now it's discrimination against young people? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Which results in losses of hundreds of millions of dollars for companies. Over and over.

      The solution is simple then. Start a company, hire a bunch of old folks, and become a billionaire.

    6. Re:Now it's discrimination against young people? by JoeyRox · · Score: 1

      On the same token we can easily identify who has a sense of humor and who doesn't.

    7. Re:Now it's discrimination against young people? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Outside of tech hiring, the young are still on the short end of the opportunities.

      Indeed. Unemployment decreases with age. It is the young that have a hard time finding jobs, not the old.

    8. Re:Now it's discrimination against young people? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Here is more data that indicates that even in Silicon Valley the young are more likely to be unemployed than the old.

    9. Re:Now it's discrimination against young people? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      My solution was to save hard and retire at 51.

      I never got any emotional value out of working. I realized that at 30 and I saw 45 - 50 year olds being discriminated against way back then (when they had stronger protections too) so I knew what to expect.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  4. Never understood bias against the olds by hsmith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I get the SV mentality that old people aren't good fits. They don't want to work 90 hours a week for the hope of future stock which will more than likely be worthless. Older people will work hard and smarter, but not for peanuts and insane work weeks. If you are building a real company - older people have experience and value that come with having seen a slew of different scenarios.

    1. Re: Never understood bias against the olds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      AWS is a real business with paying customers. Most social media startup are hobbies that dream of getting bought by facebook.

      Real businesses need real engineers.

      For your hobbies you want to hang out with your friends, not some people that constantly tell you your idea is full of shit and your code base is unscaleable and unmaintainable. That's too depressing even if it is true.

    2. Re: Never understood bias against the olds by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      For your hobbies you want to hang out with your friends, not some people that constantly tell you your idea is full of shit and your code base is unscaleable and unmaintainable.

      Too often your friends won't provide feedback. If you're screwing up, they will sit back and watch the inevitable train wreck. If you ask them why they didn't say anything, they will claim that someone else should have told you.

    3. Re: Never understood bias against the olds by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      They can code like I can dance ballet...very very badly.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re: Never understood bias against the olds by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Find better friends. People who have grown past middle school thinking.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Never understood bias against the olds by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Except that this isn't SV culture per se. It may be Google culture, but if you did a survey you'd find that the 90 hour job is rare outside of startups, and startups are only a small fraction of technical and engineering companies. Nobody who works for a living hangs out at cocktail parties exchanging idea about the next big thing. Media focuses on stereotypes because it fits the narrative.

    6. Re: Never understood bias against the olds by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      Not all old people are equal. One guy in his 60's I worked with would talk and talk and talk and wouldn't take the hint I was busy working. He wasn't fast, but he was thorough, reliable, knew his job, and eagerly helped out where he could. I would rate him a good employee for the long run. However, his back and knees were always hurting. He barely complained, but it's hard to ask someone to do various work and watch them in pain. Another experienced developer in his 60's would take half a dozen pipe smoke breaks in an afternoon. There's virtually no productivity from him. I remember he was assigned a bug to fix in arp/bridge code. The problem was well identified and the pseudo solution told to him. He took 3 weeks to implement a 3 line fix. My biggest problem with talking to either of those guys, I don't have the patience for how slow they talk. I noticed this with Robin Quivers from Howard Stern. 20 years ago, she spoke much faster with very little pauses but now talks much slower with a lot more pauses and "Uh" moments. Same with my mom, just takes longer to say the same thing than it used to take.

    7. Re: Never understood bias against the olds by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Too often your friends won't provide feedback.

      You just need to understand what the feedback means.

      Feedback 1: That is a fantastic idea. You will make millions.

      Meaning: Your idea stinks.

      Feedback 2: That is a good idea. When will it be available? Can I buy one?

      Meaning: You idea is good, and with proper execution you will be successful.

  5. AWS: We want it to work. No Kool-Aid drinkers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So they want good engineers who can make the damn think work, not noobs they can brainwash as they underpay them?

    Good for Amazon.

  6. Maybe by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Insightful
    From TFA:

    Younger founders and employees are willing and able to work longer hours, and really grind it out. They have higher stamina, and generally don’t have families they want to spend time with. They can completely commit to the job at hand.

    That may be specifically true, but probably not universally.

    I'm 54 and can still crank out a productive 36 hour work day (yes, seriously) at crunch time, but that's me; I've always been able to stay up and be productive for long, long periods of time - showering and eating to get refreshed. But when it's over, I need 10 solid hours of sleep. It probably started when I was a college research assistant programming LISP and Prolog at 3am (as it was the only time I could get serious computing time on the VAX 785 (running 4.3 BSD) and/or our Xerox LISP system.

    In addition, I had a wife, who was a teacher, who understood being professional and committed to a task and didn't complain about any long work hours, as she often put in some serious hours to teach her Gifted students. (She died in 2006, so now I'm single: Remember Sue...) We had no kids -- we met in 1985 when I was 22 and she was 41 -- so we were able to dedicate our down time to each other.

    I imagine my stamina -- and 30+ years of experience, programming in many languages and administrating Windows, Linux and Unix on everything from PCs to Cray systems -- would still fair well against most youngsters now.

    I thing the main thing is that older people have a greater sense of perspective, perhaps not shared with their younger managers, that there are actually more important things in life than whatever is going on at work or even work itself. Case in point, I'd give everything to have Sue back.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Maybe by doom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm 54 and can still crank out a productive 36 hour work day (yes, seriously) at crunch time, but that's me; I've always been able to stay up and be productive for long, long periods of time - showering and eating to get refreshed.

      Let me guess: you don't drink.

      A lot of what we've traditionally thought of as "the natural effects of age" were really the natural effects of lots of booze.

    2. Re:Maybe by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      A lot of what we've traditionally thought of as "the natural effects of age" were really the natural effects of lots of booze.

      Nothing is more fun than coming into work on a Monday morning, finding out that your coworkers are being bailed out of jail for fighting at the strip joint down the street, and HR issuing a memo in the afternoon that getting busted at the strip joint is grounds for termination.

    3. Re:Maybe by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. I'm 53, still outwork kids and love a drink. The trick is not to be an idiotic, drunken sot OR a self righteous idiotic thumper.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:Maybe by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      I'm 54 and can still crank out a productive 36 hour work day (yes, seriously) at crunch time, but that's me; I've always been able to stay up and be productive for long, long periods of time - showering and eating to get refreshed.

      Let me guess: you don't drink.

      Not really. Maybe one or two drinks a week. I also don't smoke. For completeness, I also don't watch NASCAR, Football, Basketball, Hockey, etc... My wife liked all that - 'cause I paid attention to her and us instead.

      A lot of what we've traditionally thought of as "the natural effects of age" were really the natural effects of lots of booze.

      And smoking. And, perhaps, stress and lack of sleep.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    5. Re:Maybe by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      We had a strip joint that served 'free lunch'.

      Common discussion in the halls: 'Free lunch today?'...'Can't afford it.'

      A year later, one of the lesbians figured out what we were talking about.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    6. Re:Maybe by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I have to say: Of the competent female computer people I've known, most were/are, very bull, dykes.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    7. Re:Maybe by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. I'm 53, still outwork kids and love a drink. The trick is not to be an idiotic, drunken sot OR a self righteous idiotic thumper.

      I don't think that a drink or two is what the OP was referring to.

      Personally, I think that people being "younger" in their 40's and 50's has just as much to do with less wear-n-tear physically as it does to not smoking and not drinking to excess. A high amount of physical work and poor environmental standards ages people more quickly. In addition, having access to better foods when young makes a huge difference as well.

    8. Re:Maybe by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about 'a drink or two' either. But I'm also not talking about constantly drinking like a Baptist. (Who are sots if they drink at all, having convinced themselves that booze is that powerful.)

      People don't typically wear out, they rust. The right amount of exercise is an important part of taking care of yourself. Your liver is no different, take it out for a jog once in awhile.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    9. Re:Maybe by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      I'm 61 and consistently crank out code around 50-60 hours per week.

      Most weekdays, I work a regular workday, sleep for around four hours (bladder won't allow longer), then get up and work another 3 to 5 hours, then crash for another 2 hours before getting back up for work. Then I usually turn in another 4 hours or sometime over the weekend.

      Not to be self-aggrandizing; but I have about a 95% "works first time" rate, in case you think I just stumble around for 60 hours a week. And I'm the guy that tends to get all the "I don't even know how you could do that" Projects.

    10. Re: Maybe by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      I've never seen an age disparity like this that wasn't creepy as fuck.

    11. Re: Maybe by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      36 work day? Mental issue red flag. I was first believing you meant 16 hour work day, which is possible. My opinion is that people who continually work long hours outside of specific deadlines are incompetent and over their head for their job.

    12. Re:Maybe by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      I don't drink, still feel the age.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    13. Re: Maybe by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      36 work day? Mental issue red flag. I was first believing you meant 16 hour work day, which is possible. My opinion is that people who continually work long hours outside of specific deadlines are incompetent and over their head for their job.

      Nope. I meant that I have, a few times, worked (productively) for 36 hours straight. There have been a few 30 hour and many 24 hour stints over my 30+ years of school and professional experience. Though, I guess that's all chump hours for a medical student/intern/resident - which I not sure is a good thing.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    14. Re:Maybe by just+another+AC · · Score: 1

      I'm 54 and can still crank out a productive 36 hour work day (yes, seriously) at crunch time, but that's me;

      Dr. Steven Strange??

      It'd take me good part of a week to do that...

    15. Re:Maybe by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      You prudish Americans. Actually its the opposite.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...

      https://www.bustle.com/article...

      http://www.webmd.com/food-reci...

    16. Re:Maybe by __aadota8673 · · Score: 1

      Strange - I've never had this problem. Maybe it's because my coworkers are in my social stratum, and yours are in yours. Slashdot: news for lower middle class white trash. Oh wait - no it's not.

  7. Isn't this obvious? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    You need to hire older workers when the younger workers are too busy re-inventing the wheel without the experience to know how to build a better wheel.

    1. Re:Isn't this obvious? by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm in my 50s. Im fortunate in that my younger colleagues are good guys and generally aren't trying to reinvent the wheel.

      Our younger manager, on the other hand, delights in half-assedly reinventing the wheel... while all the while claiming that she "doesn't believe in reinventing the wheel".

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:Isn't this obvious? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Half of them have never seen a wheel, so they don't know that they're reinventing it.

  8. sprint or marathon? by petes_PoV · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Sure the "kiddies" are good for pulling all-nighters. But the "grownups" use their experience to avoid having to.

    The biggest problem with IT - not just the tiny part that involves coding - is that it values quantity over quality. "Move fast and break things" being the prime example of this dumb idea. So while the fresh, new, intake of IT people work with gusto, many of them spend a large amount of time reinventing the mistakes of the past.

    However, when your management team rewards "presentee-ism" and "heroic" efforts, rather than dull, predictable, progress: what should you expect?

    Maybe this is the start of the IT industry getting just a little maturity. If it keeps it up, it might actually get to be a profession, one day.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:sprint or marathon? by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      Outside of Silicon Valley, IT is already a profession. Houston, for example, is not known for high tech. But plenty of businesses of all types do need IT staff. They aren't looking for insane hours or "heroic" efforts. Instead, they are looking for stable people who get things done. I'm 50, and so far, I haven't felt this bias against older programmers.

    2. Re:sprint or marathon? by rastos1 · · Score: 1

      However, when your management team rewards "presentee-ism" and "heroic" efforts, rather than dull, predictable, progress: what should you expect?

      Dunno. Perhaps that the grownups adapt to the rules of the game - no matter how silly they are - instead of waiting that the PHBs wise up?

      Note: I do not advocate that. I'm just providing a possible answer to your question.

  9. My Experience by tylersoze · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm a contract programmer and usually work with a loose collection of older-ish programmers like myself (mid-40's) on various contract projects, all remotely. We all get along well, we're professional, no-nonsense, 40 hour work week kind of guys that just get the job done. Lately during a little slow work spell, I took some work with one of these young hipster-ish development firms. The code they were writing was just total garbage, I couldn't wait to be done with the contract. Lots of that off putting company enthusiasm, dude it's just a job not a lifestyle. I came into their office a couple of times, total hipster open plan style, I don't see how they get any work on done.

    1. Re:My Experience by tommeke100 · · Score: 2

      They don't, that's why they contracted you :)

    2. Re:My Experience by fyzikapan · · Score: 1

      Mostly they don't get work done. They sit around in their company-branded t-shirts and company-branded hoodies, drinking company-supplied beer as long as the VC money lasts, and then it's on to the next startup that's also doomed because it's run like a frat house by people who have never held down a real job .

  10. Hey, kids, get off my lawn! by RetiredMidn · · Score: 1

    63, just started a Mac project in Swift.

  11. Betteridge's law of headlines by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    says no. Gosling is the hood ornament. They still need lots of young squirrels run in their cage to make the car go.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  12. Re:Maybe ... maybe not by petes_PoV · · Score: 1

    a productive 36 hour work day

    Maybe .... once.

    But that is only in response to a crisis. You cannot do that every day (apart from for the obvious reason) and neither can anybody else, irrespective of age. My personal experience has taught me that these long sessions are far less productive than they appear, when you take into account the number of errors introduced. And when you further consider the "recovery time" after a spurt like that, the actual productivity over a longer period is no better than someone working regular hours.

    While it is occasionally necessary to do a long shift to meet a deadline - indicating that the manager who set the deadline made a mistake - or to resolve a crisis, they are not a badge of honour. At best they mean that someone messed up, at worst they are simply just a waste of everyone's time.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  13. Re:Maybe ... maybe not by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    a productive 36 hour work day

    Maybe .... once.

    But that is only in response to a crisis. You cannot do that every day (apart from for the obvious reason) and neither can anybody else, irrespective of age. My personal experience has taught me that these long sessions are far less productive than they appear, when you take into account the number of errors introduced. And when you further consider the "recovery time" after a spurt like that, the actual productivity over a longer period is no better than someone working regular hours.

    While it is occasionally necessary to do a long shift to meet a deadline - indicating that the manager who set the deadline made a mistake - or to resolve a crisis, they are not a badge of honour. At best they mean that someone messed up, at worst they are simply just a waste of everyone's time.

    All true. I've only really worked that long a few times a year, usually in response to (a) a problem discovered just prior to a release, (b) a hardware problem that involved working w a vendor to get something fixed on a production system. One of the type (a) problems required a 9-hour three-way conference call - that was fun (he said very sarcastically). I do have the physical benefit of not fading out as the hour get late, so that helps.

    In the long run, though, I think experience generally beats energy and enthusiasm. Like the old exchange:

    • Edison: Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.
    • Tesla: If Edison had thought more clearly, he wouldn't have had to work so hard.
    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  14. age has pros and cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I'm a 49 year old chief architect of a pretty prominent $10bn+ company. Age has both pros and cons, and I hope that my value equation carries on until i'm 70. Who knows... I think a key part of my view is colored by the fact I'm an engineer at heart and hope to be until I die. I'm currently at home experimenting with some newer Go web frameworks to find a good match for the tool I want to build.

    Pros of age:

    Experience springs straight to mind. I see the code written by younger engineers and I'm amazed in parallel at their energy, ingenuity and also their sheer naivety. I reckon I could halve the effort they put in and get superior results. In many ways experience (of the right sort) allows you to circumvent all sorts of inefficiency. Of course, you need the right experience and the right mindset - or else experience can also be synonymous with closed mindedness & looks like bitterness to outsiders.

    A second pro is that programming rarely introduces truly new ideas - they tend to be rehashes of the old ideas in a different skin. The Node.js async model is not really any different from the asynchronous call out smalltalk stuff we were doing in the early 90's. If you've used lisp then python and javascript look pretty much like old hat. It often makes learning new stuff ridiculously fast.

    Cons of age:

    My memory for detail is starting to get worse. I noticed it in the last year, and it spurred me on to start getting fit again after a long period of inactivity. I can offset a lot of the need for detail via abstraction (a good program is one someone else can understand, and as I get older that someone is frequently me ;-) and cleaner code, but it's still a concern.

    Fatigue over "new" technology - I mentioned above that truly new ideas are rare in programming and engineering in general. However, the repackaging (node.js again springs to mind) of a set of ideas into a new, detailed ecosystem is often more annoying than inspiring.

    Lack of tolerance for complexity - my PhD professors (they were well into their 60's) had 0 tolerance for complexity in all its forms and they called it out when they saw it. I have a similar approach as I get older - which to be fair is both a pro and a con. It's a pro in that I often see the simplicity of a situation and dive straight into the heart of the matter. It's a con because I often get tired of complex systems even though I have to dive in and fix their architectures. Sometimes it makes me sad seeing it, which makes me a bit less effective because I might even avoid diving in

  15. Re:Maybe ... maybe not by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Tesla talking shit about clear thinking...LOL.

    You realize that Tesla and Edison were both very accomplished _tinkerers_. Neither understood electric fields, Tesla demonstrated just how poorly he understood electric fields in his later years with his unworkable suggestions for wireless power.

    They both had to work their asses off as they were 'trial and error' inventors.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  16. Re: AWS doesn't hire the young either by Brockmire · · Score: 1

    Wtf? The average age at these big silicon valley places hover around 28.

  17. Re:Amazon hire creimer now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Oh I'm still here, but the Slashdot moderation system put my account at 2 posts per day almost immediately. This was a revelation to me.

  18. Engineering and maths by harlequinn · · Score: 1

    "Great engineering is not maths".

    Great engineering is not only maths.

    Most engineering usually involves a metric shit-ton of maths.

    1. Re:Engineering and maths by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Unless you're doing some sort of signal processing, software engineering usually requires no maths at all (unless you count logic as maths).

    2. Re:Engineering and maths by harlequinn · · Score: 1

      The question is: is software engineering really an engineering discipline...? I say no.

      That said, and assuming it is engineering (noooooo, simply calling yourself an engineer doesn't make you one!!!), doesn't signal processing use Fourier series, Fourier transforms, etc? I'd call that pretty heavy maths.

      Isn't programming a mix of logic and maths?

      I'm going to guess that most programming degrees have at least a year of maths.

    3. Re:Engineering and maths by harlequinn · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure you're going to have to do some maths when you implement your Bayesian filter...

      But lets look at this another way. Presenting a narrow case (some form of quasi engineering that doesn't have as much maths) does not disprove the wider case (that engineering is mainly applied mathematics).

    4. Re:Engineering and maths by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> "doesn't signal processing use.."

      Yes, that's why i wrote "Unless you're doing signal processing".

      That said, Signal Processing is a quite small field of all software development, and even then, its most usually done on DSPs that also come with libraries containing everything you need such as FFTs etc, so you rarely if ever actually code them yourself any more.

    5. Re:Engineering and maths by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> The question is: is software engineering really an engineering discipline...? I say no.

      They you're clearly one of the many people that incorrectly think that being a good Software Engineer just means being good at "coding".

      >> Isn't programming a mix of logic and maths?
      yes, but honestly most programming jobs (at least that I've had in my 35 years as a Software Engineer) only require very basic maths. Even those jobs including signal processing.

      >> I'm going to guess that most programming degrees have at least a year of maths.
      Yes but you usually get 3+ years of Software Engineering.

    6. Re:Engineering and maths by harlequinn · · Score: 1

      "They you're clearly one of the many people that incorrectly think that being a good Software Engineer just means being good at "coding"."

      Don't make dumb assumptions. No, I know what a software engineer does. They aren't engineers because they don't design physical objects. That's my differentiation - and it's the obvious one. I wouldn't let you touch the designs of anything that a structural, hydraulic, mechanical, electrical, electronic, biomedical, etc. engineer has made - because you're not an engineer.

      Let's be clear, I'm not demeaning the job, or you. If I were to choose someone to code for me a software "engineer" would be my first port of call. I simply don't consider the title of "engineer" appropriate.

    7. Re:Engineering and maths by harlequinn · · Score: 1

      Software literally cannot be a machine. It is purely abstract. On the other hand it can control a machine.

      It's why in many countries software is not patentable (because maths and logic are not considered patentable material).

    8. Re:Engineering and maths by harlequinn · · Score: 1

      Lol. I misinterpreted it as the opposite.

      That's interesting. Are there similar libraries for x86, ARM, etc?

    9. Re:Engineering and maths by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Absolutely.

    10. Re:Engineering and maths by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      >> Software literally cannot be a machine.

      Sure it can. In fact that concept is pretty fundamental to most of Computer Science.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    11. Re:Engineering and maths by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Here's some more:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    12. Re:Engineering and maths by harlequinn · · Score: 1

      No, it can't be a machine. The Turing machine is the "machine" in this instance. It accepts paper strips as its input - which, once input into the machine, are not the "machine" but the abstract input it is acting on.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    13. Re:Engineering and maths by harlequinn · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you know what context is. These are homographs. I.e. they use the word machine but it means something entirely different. So no, they are not machines.

    14. Re:Engineering and maths by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Tell that to Alan Turing and every CS student and professor ever.

    15. Re:Engineering and maths by harlequinn · · Score: 1

      A physical logic gate is a machine (by the modern definition). Software is not.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      That's what a machine is. Software uses the term as a homograph, i.e. same word, different meaning.

  19. I interviewed at AWS by Alan+Evans · · Score: 1

    ...about 2 years ago, 2x face to face. It was challenging. But man did I feel out of place and I was 35 at the time. I would say 7/10 people I interviewed with we're mid 20s males. No female interviewers. I got a distinct "out of place" feeling more than a few times. I felt like I had a rapport with my interviewers but that they were going through the motions, like they had made up their minds in the first few mins. "Hey cool man but it just isn't going to happen."

  20. agile by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

    Does anyone know if AWS practices the Agile Scum micromanagement methodology? I doubt it, since they seem competent and their software actually works right. But it would be nice to know for sure. And if not Agile Scum, what development methodology do they use?

    1. Re:agile by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      give a skilled engineer a task and let him get on with it.

  21. No, you got it wrong by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

    Bezos is getting older.

  22. Send in TigerSwan! by tmjva · · Score: 1

    The Cult of Youth sounds 'idealogically driven' with a 'strong religious component'.

    --
    Tracy Johnson
    Old fashioned text games hosted below:
    http://empire.openmpe.com/
    BT
  23. is picking cherries good for you? by doom · · Score: 1

    Health benefits of moderate drinking may be overstated, study finds

    The benefits of light alcohol consumption, as well as the risks associated with not drinking at all, might not be as great as previously thought, according to researchers who examined the drinking habits of middle-aged adults.

    Is moderate drinking really good for you? Jury's still out

    Many people believe a glass of wine with dinner will help them live longer and healthier -- but the scientific evidence is shaky at best, according to a new research analysis.

    Moderate drinking decreases number of new brain cells

    Moderate to binge drinking significantly reduces the structural integrity of the adult brain. The new research indicates that daily drinking decreases nerve cell development in the hippocampus part of the brain -- necessary for some type of learning and memory -- by 40 percent.

    And another interesting subject is "confirmation bias":
    See! I was right

    people are reluctant to change their minds, even when facts don't match what they believe ...

    Once people reach a conclusion, they aren't likely to change their minds, even when new information shows their initial belief is likely wrong ...