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Get Real, Microsoft: If the New Surface Pro Is a Laptop, Bundle It With a Type Cover (pcworld.com)
An anonymous reader shares an article: If Microsoft sold cars like it's trying to sell its Surface Pro (2017), it would charge extra for wheels -- and would be laughed out of the market. But Microsoft's using this tactic to sell its new Windows tablet as a "laptop," and we're still trying to figure out why. Microsoft's Surface Pro is clearly a Windows tablet, just like its predecessor, the Surface Pro 4. Nevertheless, devices chief Panos Panay calls it a "laptop" no fewer than three times in his blog post, including the very first sentence. No "laptop" or notebook PC forgoes a keyboard, however, as the Surface Pro does. Long-time Surface fans may know that Microsoft charges $129 to $159 more for that accessory, but does the average buyer get it? That's where the confusion starts.
The surface is a turd even if the keyboard is provided free!!!
..I suspect a quick call to the Advertising Standards Authority will result in hasty withdrawal of said advertising material.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
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you will get burned.
I doubt many Surface devices, especially at the upper end are used with a keyboard so it's basically just an excuse to gouge customers.
After all they got successful by selling mice with just one button for three times the price.
Plenty of people will need the keyboard, but isn't there also a sizable portion of people that just has no need for it?
I have been using a surface pro 4 for about 6 months now. When I'm at work I just plug it into an actual keyboard and monitor. For that it is amazing, it packs plenty of power, and without the keyboard it is lighter than a 12" Macbook. When I'm on the sofa or train, I just use the on screen keyboard as for me personally the tablet form factor is more convenient to hold. I bought a keyboard cover with the Surface, but it has just been collecting dust (which it does more than I'd like with the textile-like material used).
Of course, people that need to do extensive typing on their lap or while away from a USB keyboard won't be able to do without the keyboard, but I would say a pretty large portion of people that I see around me would be off just fine without the keyboard.
Relatives who are less tech savvy will buy this for their younger kids under the assumption that it's a laptop (because they're calling it one).
When the recipient receives it, well they needed a laptop so they'll shell out extra for the keyboard.
They're very obviously taking advantage of that principle to shore up it's number, just by referring to it as a laptop.
Why does anyone still buy any of their crap hardware?
I have probably seen about a hundred people using a Surface in my life time. Every single one of them without a single exception was using it as a laptop with the keyboard cover. I've never even seen anyone touch the screen.
And I want to use my earphones with my iphone7.... They are so disconnected from real people .... They are stupid.... Just in different ways
Personally, I'm inclined to say that a laptop should include a keyboard. I'm even inclined to call these hybrids, more tablet than laptop. Even when the keyboard is attached, it really isn't even close to being a laptop. It's top-heavy, the keyboard doesn't feel as solid as a real keyboard (even a laptop keyboard). It's clearly a trade-off between laptop and tablet.
Granted, my experiences aren't based upon the 1000€+ Surface. There is no way I'd buy one at those prices. You can however, get decent built Chinese clones. From the specs they aren't in the same league as a Surface (Atom x5 vs Core i), but for ~16% of the price, they are pretty decent. On top of that many run Android and Windows. (I find Windows 10 severely lacking on a tablet. Mainly because I seem to trigger gestures I don't want to trigger and didn't find how to turn them of. Okay, didn't look hard. Still annoying)
I got myself a Chuwi Hi10 Plus at Gearbest for 156€ with the keyboard cover thrown in recently. (Never buy Chinese stuff at full price, it's always on sale somewhere) I wouldn't have gotten it without the keyboard. The keyboard thrown in made the deal for me. As a tablet, it's ok... As a laptop works, but I'd rather get one of my real clamshell laptops for doing any typing work. The keyboard-cover is relegated mostly to "protection" status.
Perhaps it's different if you have a click-on keyboard instead of a cover-keyboard... perhaps a Surface is worth the 850+€ more (It has better CPU, better screen resolutions, SSD instead of eMMC). I can't say... I still wouldn't recommend these devices unless you have a special use-case, want to do mostly media consumption and don't need to do much typing.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
It's just a "lap". "toppings" are extra.
Don't like it? Don't buy it.
As far as I know, this is UK legislation and a UK authority. For another thing, the proposed "Great Reform Bill" incorporates all EU law into UK legislation up to the point we leave the EU; Parliament is then free to change such law as it sees fit.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
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I already have the covers, why should I pay more for a new one if I don't need it? Besides, if they bundle it, the what if I want a different one? What about the two computers I use with just the tablet and don't need keyboards for them?
What's good for you isn't good for everyone. I'd prefer the option
I have to say that as a tablet it completely and utterly sucks. Windows simply does not translate to a tablet environment and, other than emergency use, I never use it without the keyboard.
However, with the keyboard and as a lightweight touchscreen laptop for travel, is is excellent. I use Mac for my desktop environment, but Apple have decided for what seems to be purely religious reasons not to put touch-screens into their laptop line, which for me is a dealbreaker. Using the mouse for 99% of the UI, but the finger on the screen to scroll and pinch-zoom when appropriate works really well for me, and when I'm doing presentations from my Surface Pro onto a projector being able to draw onto the screen with the pen is a major advantage.
I know for many of you a touchscreen in a laptop seems stupid, and you're perfectly entitled to that opinion. For me, it works, and it works better than the alternative (which is why my MacBook Pro is now hardly ever used.)
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FU Microsoft.
Has anyone ever actually seen a surface? I remember seeing a few accessories for them in the bargain bin a while back, but the problem is that there is no market for a tablet that runs Windows - and according to the staff, the actual devices were discontinued by most retailers due almost no sales. I expect that Microsoft is finally getting that, and this is why it is now being marked as a laptop. After all, nobody would want something as terrible to use as Windows on a tablet. Apparently Surface sold a few more units in America, where the consumer is generally less sophisticated, and probably more susceptible to being conned into buying a device where the concept really doesn't work like this. Here, I have never seen one here, nor heard of anyone owning one. The concept would be better as a laptop with keyboard, since the screen actually looks pretty good. Just get rid of the silly concept of being some kind of tablet.
I thought you open sores losers were all about choice?
Bundling a laptop with Windows - bad!
Bundling a laptop with a keyboard - good!
The average user has become an idiot when it comes to buying and operating computers. Of course, we did this by making all tech "idiot-proof", as if a 4-year old were behind every keyboard.
And it worked.
Soon, cars will be sold with optional wheels because consumers are ignorant as to what they can and should be charged extra for. Drivers already don't want a steering wheel. Or an obligation to pay attention.
Does it run Linux ?
aaaaaaa
On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd call it a tablet either... perhaps a drawing tablet, but not a tablet in mobility sense.
You just have to have used an iPad, iPad mini, Galaxy Tab, among others to know how hard it is to use a Surface Pro or other Windows tablets to do stuff like reading books and comics, among others - they are too bulky and heavy. It's closer to holding a hybrid.
Then again, can we really hold Microsoft responsible for something like that? Apple calls the iPad Pro a "portable PC"... heh. Lenovo calls the Yoga Book a 2 in 1 tablet. There are several cases of class confusion since guts and form factors are getting highly interchangeable.
Microsoft positions the Surface Pro as a laptop... and it has positioned it that was for a long time now because originally it was made to compete with Macbooks. They are referencing to the guts of the device, which are closer to a Windows laptop than an Android or iOS tablet. I think it's fair enough, you are of course free to disagree. It's advertising, semantics, and whatnot battle, but one thing you can't disagree no matter how much you hate Microsoft: they put a whole lot of thought to let people use the Surface Pro line... on their laps. So, it's a laptop. Or even more so, a notebook?
Apple says, in actual advertising, not a blog post; "iPad Pro Super. Computer. In Two Sizes". Every time people look at an iPad Pro I'm sure the Cray X or Y series comes to mind, absolutely! It's garbage journalism to say that just because a tablet is sold without a keyboard initially it can't be a "laptop", just like its silly to honestly believe you can do real computing on an iPad.. but your shiny new sans-keyboard Surface actually can.
Maybe Microsoft should advertise the Surface as a "Super. Computer!".. oh right, it's a tablet, not a real computer.
Companies make it very difficult for the user "not to buy" an entrenched product.
Example: Being forced with Win10 since you "have legacy applications"
Being forced to accept a bunch of Google Play restrictions when you are buying your phone
Being forced to accept a whole lot of conditions when buying insurances and contracts.
What happens is that a company sells a mostly good product and insert into it a "poison pill" that you have to swallow to actually use it.
You cannot deal with this simply saying "do not buy the product"
From day one Microsoft's ads have always shown the optional keyboard as if it came standard. I always thought someone needs to file for false advertisement giving too many the impression that the keyboard comes with it. If your going to market it with a keyboard, and most of use would find it a given that you need the keyboard. Then why pull a Apple and nickel and dime the buyer to purchase a keyboard? Because its absolutely not a good tablet, because its too damn heavy.
No "laptop" or notebook PC forgoes a keyboard, however, as the Surface Pro lacks one. Badly.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Please point out the superior tablet/convertible laptop?
Normally a claim that something is bad, means there is something better to compare it too. I personally don't care for the Surface, because it doesn't solve the issues that I have, but in General I am not needing a tablet or convertible laptop. However the specs from hardware to dimensions and weight, makes it seems a comparable product to the others in its market.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
With a Type Cover Surface PRO can be a tablet and a _desktop_. You can use it on your desk but you cannot keep it on your lap.
I'm fine with however you sell it *so long as it is clear what is being sold*. If they want customers to try their luck without a real keyboard, then so be it.
Personally, I imagined using it as a tablet a fair amount, but in practice, Windows is not very good at a pure touch experience. In general, I can't find any touch friendly applications in Windows. I just use android tablet and android applications if I want touch experience, since the closest Windows equivalents are terrible. Of course, there's only a handful of things that I will do without a keyboard (reading, music, video).
While I have not put a desktop linux on that device, based on my experience trying to use Windows without a keyboard and my experience with desktop linux applications, I think it would be just as terrible.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I've been using a Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga with the 12.5" screen as a work-issued laptop for about three years. It was good enough that when my wife needed a new laptop we bought a similar model but with more RAM and the i7 processor, works great for her too.
The rest of Lenovo's portable products don't seem to be doing so well and their parts availability has gone to hell, but these machines seem to be pretty solid.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
If they bundled the keyboard, they would just raise the price. Why would they do that? Without a the keyboard in the bundle consumers have more choices. You can buy the keyboard you want or not buy one at all.
Why would you want to have fewer choices when the total price would be the same?
A few times when travelling for a couple of weeks at a time, I have taken a Windows 10 tablet with me without any type-cover.
It was primarily not the keyboard that I missed, but a proper pointing device.
Windows 10 still has some programs made for touch and some programs made for mouse and keyboard. For instance, when travelling you need to set up Wifi, and if you ever need to get into the real Wifi settings you do need to get into the classic Control Panel a lot, and that is still not touch-optimized. Neither is Explorer, so you can't move files around without moving files wrong now and then.
Another thing is the high DPI screen, which is nice when a program supports it but when using an older program not built for high DPI, the buttons and icons are tiny and you [i]really[/i] need a pointing device.
Yes, the on-screen keyboard is clunky and slows you down, but many casual users would not type faster on a real keyboard either.
So, the most important aspect of having the type cover is not the keyboard but the touchpad that is on it.
It seems to me that the reason why MS did not include either, and why they are still offering a 4GB option, is because they want to keep the "Prices from" amount low for advertising. Advertising concerns should not dictate a product's properties - a product's properties should dictate the advertising!
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
Your opinion of what Microsoft should do is not news.
I don't get it. They give you more option to how you want it and save you money, and you want to complain?
If I already have type cover or use regular full size keyboard why wouldn't I want the option?
Go ahead pay $160 more each if you so focusing on have to be a "laptop"
My cover was 50$ and yes I bought it. What is the issue? You dumb? Its optional, cause it is. Where the hell is the definition that a laptop/computer must have a keyboard?
How about laptops should have a "input device"? Since when are all input devices keyboards?
This is a serious news item?
Had a Yoga 2 Pro for 4 months. At around 30 minute intervals on average, the screen would freak out and start cycling on and off for a few minutes.
SSD ended up frying itself and I pitched in favor of an HP. All my HP's have reliably worked for exactly 13 months before they paperweight.
Anyone who has owned a Surface knows that the keyboard is not an issue. If you need one, you get one. In general, all these minor complaints mask the fact that the Surface is a great business oriented laptop, it's great for graphics, documents, meetings... with one large longstanding problem.
THE issue with the Surface line is power. Does the power button work for more than a year? Does the charger connector still snap into place? Is the battery crap? Can you tell the difference between any of these problems? Without power the thing doesn't work at all. I've taken apart old laptops to recover data, and fix bad power connectors, but that's not a real option with the way the Surface is constructed.
Keyboards!? That's a trivial issue. This is like complaining about the color of your Tesla while the battery is on fire.
Is that part of the Thinkpad line though? There's a rather large difference between the build quality of the Thinkpad line and the rest of Lenovo's products, and even within the Thinkpad line it's not always consistent between distinct product lines.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
I was more annoyed with no pen in the New Surface Pro coming out of the box. Sure.. sure.. There's 4096 pressure points, but seriously? No pen? That's cheap and low. The fabric covered keyboards - what ever.. I can manage, but no pen. That stings.
There is obviously a market for devices that cost more than they need to. Apple has proven this by selling its devices at a much higher markup than other brands. Who wouldn't want to be in that kind of business! Microsoft has seen an opportunity here, and went for it. Unfortunately for them, most of us consider price an important factor when buying our hardware, and naturally choose something else.
If they're actually calling it a "laptop" at the place of sale (or when ordered online) and it lacks a keyboard, then I believe it would fall short of "fit for purpose" under a lot of consumer laws and be returnable.
The covers come in multiple colors, and your primary use case might be docked on a desk with a full PC keyboard. How is this different than if a PC manufacturer allowed you to buy a tower without a keyboard?
Disclaimer-- I work for Microsoft in field sales, love my Surface Pro 4, although I don't sell the Surface line. I work with the open source partners running on our Azure cloud.
Not exactly "convertible" but I have the thinkpad T560 with multitouch, and it can open flat on a desk. If you flip the screen, you can use it like a tablet on a table, though obviously as a fullsize it doesn't work to hold it one hand like a tablet.
I don't hear anybody say good things about any of the true convertibles other than the Thinkpad Yoga and the MS Surface. Most of the manufacturers seem to be waiting to see if this is even a real niche.
While I agree with the point TFA is making, its car analogy is totally baseless. You cannot use a car without wheels. You can use a convertible laptop/tablet without a physical keyboard.
A more fitting car analogy would've been advertising a vehicle as an off-road vehicle, when 4WD is an add-on option and not standard on the base model. This is in fact how many SUVs are advertised, and their manufacturers have not been laughed out of the market.
In New Zealand, and I would imagine many other countries, if any of the material released by Microsoft, in any media format or source, refereed to it as a laptop and the consumer received it without a keyboard then they would be legally entitled to either a free keyboard or a full refund. I think under NZ law Microsoft may have the choice of which remedy applies but if they chose the refund option they would open them self up to prosecution under false advertising laws as a calling a device without a keyboard a laptop is misrepresenting it as something other than it really is. If they only used weasel words like "laptop capable" they would probably be get away it.
I've got a red keyboard. you might want a black keyboard. I don't mind dealing with separate keyboard, as long as i understand the purchase process.
How many processor/ram/storage options already exist before dealing with the keyboard options. (let alone the nfl logo keyboards)
My Y70 is great specs. But the build and design is bad. Not enough heat dissipation and the screen flickers (known hardware issue, cheap cable to the screen). i7, 16G, discrete GTX 960, for under $1000.
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It's all about how you use it. If all or part of what you do with a computer is digital art, the Surface Pro is an awesome device. Its primary competition is Wacom's MobileStudio Pro, which has a better pen (though Microsoft's new pen has narrowed the gap) but falls short in just about every other way (heavier, more expensive, worse battery life, no keyboard docking option).
The various Surface Pro clones from other manufacturers don't have pens that are even as good as the previous generation Microsoft pen, let alone the new one, if they offer a pen at all. Though if you're really looking to be a digital artist on the cheap I'd take a look at the Chuwi SurBook that is currently on Indiiegogo.