Teardown of New iMac Reveals Upgradable Processors, RAM (macrumors.com)

According to an iFixit teardown, Apple's new 4K 21.5-inch iMac has both removable RAM and a Kaby Lake processor that's not soldered onto the logic board. Whereas the previous models had soldered memory modules, the new iMac's memory sit in two removable SO-DIMM slots. MacRumors reports: iFixit made the discovery by disassembling Apple's $1,299 mid-range 3.0GHz stock option, which includes 8GB of 2400MHz DDR4 memory, a Radeon Pro 555 graphics card with 2GB of VRAM, and a 1TB 5400-RPM hard drive. After slicing through the adhesive that secures the 4K display to the iMac's housing and removing the power supply, hard drive, and fan, iFixit discovered that the memory modules aren't soldered onto the logic board like previous models, but instead sit in two removable SO-DIMM slots. Similarly, after detaching the heatsink and removing the warranty voiding stickers on the backside of the logic board, iFixit found that the Intel SR32W Core i5-7400 Kaby Lake processor sits in a standard LGA 1151 CPU socket, making it possible to replace or upgrade the CPU without a reflow station.

Comments

PENETRATE MY ASSHOLE

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't need a touchscreen because I have a nig cock in my asshole!

Give me last year's technology and more nig cock.

8==N=I=G==C=O=C=K==D ~~-_

Re: PENETRATE MY ASSHOLE

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell doesn't Slashdot delete these comments that are utterly devoid of value even as a troll? At least trolls drive page views as people argue and flame each other. These comments, however, serve absolutely no purpose except to waste space. Make no mistake, Slashdot does delete comments, including when creimer apparently alleges a DMCA violation for trolls using a similar name. Yet these useless comments seem to remain. What gives?

Re: PENETRATE MY ASSHOLE

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding?!

I can barely fit an iPhone 7S into my asshole as it is!

If I try to shove a XEON processor up my ass, I'll probably explode! Especially if it's last year's XEON processor. I'd probably need whole bottle of lube for that thing even if I wasn't already "packing" an iPhone!

Re: PENETRATE MY ASSHOLE

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm definitely positively not arguing with you right now, and not flaming because your point of view is absolute rubbish and you need to be banned for posting insulting comments.

5400 RPM?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now thats premium. It a 5.25 inch drive?

Re: 5400 RPM?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, as predicted, there's a comment whining about Apple's significant upgrades to the iMac line. Grow up, kiddies.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the upgrade from? A 3600 RPM Conner HDD?

Re: 5400 RPM?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look on the bright side. The world's smallest violin is playing a song for you whiny bastards right now. If you want to replace the hard drive, you're certainly able to do so. That's the point of this article. The components aren't soldered on, allowing you to do exactly that. I'd probably replace it with a good SSD, but the great thing is that Apple lets me so that because the components aren't soldered in place.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks Dad!!

Re: 5400 RPM?

[KGIII]

In recent history, isn't this the exception to the rule? Also, it seems like a whole lot of work.

And no, I don't hate Apple. Not even remotely.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[geekmux]

Yup, as predicted, there's a comment whining about Apple's significant upgrades to the iMac line. Grow up, kiddies.

Enough with the childish references. Finding 5400RPM spinning rust in 2017 Apple hardware is like buying a million dollar home and finding vinyl flooring. There is simply no other excuse other than being very cheap. I also wouldn't call 8GB worth of memory a 2017 "wow" factor either.

The actual significant event here was finding that Apple managed to get help for their solder addiction to revert back to the old way of building hardware. One hell of an "upgrade" path.

And everyone should be thankful Apple did this, for I can assure you the amount of obscene profit Apple was demonstrating with a sealed-box design full of solder was moving to become the standard for every other maker of hardware.

Now let's hope they continue to downgrade their laptops.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[stealth_finger]

If you want to replace the hard drive, you're certainly able to do so.

After slicing through the adhesive that secures the 4K display to the iMac's housing and removing the power supply, hard drive, and fan... Similarly, after detaching the heatsink and removing the warranty voiding stickers on the backside of the logic board... making it possible to replace or upgrade the CPU ...

So you basically have to deconstruct the whole thing and lose any kind of warranty, but it is technically possible I suppose.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[sirsnork]

Pray you never have to use one of these things with a 5400 drive in it. They are so slow you really do wonder if there is something wrong with it. The fusion drive should be the minimum spec, and even that is only just useable

In the days of every laptop coming with an SSD they still can't manage to put it in every desktop.

Good work Apple

Re: 5400 RPM?

[Blaskowicz]

If that's the problem, you can wipe the OS and install a linux distro, then the 5400 rpm HDD will be fast enough. Even with things bloating up (GTK3 instead of GTK2, etc.) it's stayed reasonable and this kind of hard drive does above 100 MB/s.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[MachineShedFred]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the manufacturing process and logistics operation becomes cheaper and easier with modular construction of CPU and RAM. Instead of doing multiple runs of boards that have different CPU and RAM combinations, you can just snap in whatever is necessary on a single production line before it gets glued in. (wtf glue?)

You put it perfectly when you referred to their solder addiction. Now they need to get off the glue too. Seriously, Apple - one or two screws are fine.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[jblues]

I wasn't imagining that they did it purposefully to allow upgrades. Just figured that this particular motherboard was economical and available in the correct quantities.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[DontBeAMoran]

"This particular motherboard"? Do you really think Apple puts regular ATX/mini-ITX/etc motherboards in their computers?

Re: 5400 RPM?

[Immerman]

It does at least give it some added longevity.

I mean, the warranty only lasts so long, and steadily increasing demands are eventually going to render it severely underpowered - at which point you can (hire someone to) upgrade RAM, HDD, and/or CPU and give it a new lease on life.

At the very least it increases the resale value for the suckers who are just going to replace it with the newest shiny, and keeps it out of the landfill for a few more years.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you looked inside the walls of a million dollar home? They cut corners in unseen areas there too.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[TheFakeTimCook]

What is the upgrade from? A 3600 RPM Conner HDD?

Hey, if it was good-enough for the Lisa...

Re: 5400 RPM?

[TheFakeTimCook]

If you want to replace the hard drive, you're certainly able to do so.

After slicing through the adhesive that secures the 4K display to the iMac's housing and removing the power supply, hard drive, and fan... Similarly, after detaching the heatsink and removing the warranty voiding stickers on the backside of the logic board... making it possible to replace or upgrade the CPU ...

So you basically have to deconstruct the whole thing and lose any kind of warranty, but it is technically possible I suppose.

By the time you want to upgrade those things, you will likely be beyond the warranty period.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Yup, as predicted, there's a comment whining about Apple's significant upgrades to the iMac line. Grow up, kiddies.

Enough with the childish references. Finding 5400RPM spinning rust in 2017 Apple hardware is like buying a million dollar home and finding vinyl flooring. There is simply no other excuse other than being very cheap. I also wouldn't call 8GB worth of memory a 2017 "wow" factor either.

The actual significant event here was finding that Apple managed to get help for their solder addiction to revert back to the old way of building hardware. One hell of an "upgrade" path.

And everyone should be thankful Apple did this, for I can assure you the amount of obscene profit Apple was demonstrating with a sealed-box design full of solder was moving to become the standard for every other maker of hardware.

Now let's hope they continue to downgrade their laptops.

You can get several BTO upgrades on these iMacs, and 8GB and 5400 RPM spinning rust is still pretty standard on base-level configs for everyone.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[TheFakeTimCook]

I wasn't imagining that they did it purposefully to allow upgrades. Just figured that this particular motherboard was economical and available in the correct quantities.

They roll their own motherboards, idiot.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[TheFakeTimCook]

"This particular motherboard"? Do you really think Apple puts regular ATX/mini-ITX/etc motherboards in their computers?

Yes, these slashtards actually DO think that.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with all your points but this I find funny as hell "Finding 5400RPM spinning rust in 2017 Apple hardware is like buying a million dollar home and finding vinyl flooring. " From experience living on the peninsula in the San Francisco Bay area that's exactly what you can expect. Million dollar homes with vinyl flooring.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

Hey Grandpa! We use SSD's these days, even on Linux based systems. Spinning disks are reserved for archiving large amounts of data.

No reason to use spinning disks for the main drive unless you're trying to be cheap.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[Anonymous Coward]

8GB is standard for most mid tier windows gaming computers, 16GB is reserved for high end units.

Plus that's bare bottom specs you can change it to 16GB of ram and a 256GB solid state in the shopping cart. And if $200 for a solid state is to much for you to bare at checkout the current full OS can still be bought on a thumb stick for $65 for when you swap it out yourself.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

Apple makes their own motherboards? I don't think so.

Yes, production capacity is a concern. Just because you have a sweet design doesn't mean it can be produced in the quantities you need at your desired price-point and on schedule.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[jblues]

Ah ok. I thought they were using commodity stuff on the lower-end models, fuckwit.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Apple makes their own motherboards? I don't think so.

Yes, production capacity is a concern. Just because you have a sweet design doesn't mean it can be produced in the quantities you need at your desired price-point and on schedule.

They use Foxconn as a Contract Manufacturer; but they are Apple Designs.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Ah ok. I thought they were using commodity stuff on the lower-end models, fuckwit.

Nope. They use the same CPUs and GPUs and some of the glue logic that everyone does; but the motherboard designs are their's and they also have some custom silicon on the Mobo, and in various other places in the system.

Re: 5400 RPM?

[jblues]

k, good to know.

Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

This iMac is a substantial improvement on earlier models and has the added benefit of being able to upgrade it without reflowing the soldering. The announcements about iOS 11, macOS 10.13, and the new iMac were all quite impressive. Despite this, the Apple haters that dominate the comments will be out in force and will somehow find a way to turn this into a negative. Such is the norm with the morons who whine about everything Apple does, and hate on anything that isn't Linux. You people really are losers. Apple really has listened to customers who wanted improved hardware with the ability to upgrade the components. But unsuspecting that won't be enough for the large amount of haters who whine about anything and everything Apple does.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

You aren't wrong, but here's the thing. When apple merely stops doing something insidious that most computer makers never do and never have done, that's not a plus for apple. That's one less negative at best. At BEST. I work as a video editor and I won't be paying for one of these. PCs are just more competitive. Companies have bottom lines and that's really the hard fact they can't solve.

Re:Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow a rare apple cheerleader telling others how they should think. Maybe you would be more comfortable on an apple worshipping site where no one might speak ill of the cult. Your obviously too immature to deal with any criticisms of your all mighty apple.

Re:Response from Slashdot readers

[_merlin]

So the RAM/CPU are socketed and theoretically replaceable/upgradeable, but doing so requires CUTTING THE MONITOR AWAY. Great improvement there Apple. I remember when you could upgrade the RAM on an iMac by opening a plastic panel, with no tools or consumables required. On the LC575 (an all-in-one from the mid '90s) the back panel popped off for you to install/upgrade RAM, PDS and comm slot cards, and the internal SCSI hard disk was on a sled that just slid out.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding, a cover is a complication that needs to be removed for the sake of a remarkable ingenious design... straight out stupid jony ives butthole.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

I work as a video editor and I won't be paying for one of these. PCs are just more competitive. Companies have bottom lines and that's really the hard fact they can't solve.

The cost of the computer is a trivial expense in professional video editing. Less than 1% of the annual cost. So your company should simply be choosing is the best equipment, whatever it is.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[PoopJuggler]

Get a grip. There's nothing "insidious" about soldered RAM. It has its benefits and drawbacks just like everything else. By your logic it's insidious to solder _anything_ down, because someone somewhere might want to replace it. If you want to replace your RAM don't but a computer with soldered RAM and then complain about how you can't replace the RAM.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

Soldering down the most common parts that are known to fail or commonly need to be upgraded; battery, storage, RAM, maybe CPU, yes is insidious. When these components fail, Apple just replaces the entire motherboard and shred (not repair) the defective one, which is also quite insidious.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[drinkypoo]

The cost of the computer is a trivial expense in professional video editing. Less than 1% of the annual cost. So your company should simply be choosing is the best equipment, whatever it is.

The best equipment is equipment that you can repair, so that you're not stuck buying a whole new computer if something goes wrong and you've got work to do. Only Apple users would ever pretend that hardware never fails.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

But we're all to familiar with the software failures on windows. So we use Macs.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

.... When apple merely stops doing something insidious that most computer makers never do and never have done, that's not a plus for apple. ...

It just means Apple's going to be doing something even more insidious.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[MachineShedFred]

For video editing, the best equipment is something you can plug as many GPUs into as possible.

That basically rules out anything running OS X. And if you're running an edit bay that costs $1000/hr+, every second counts.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

There are people doing weddings, small time clips (and in the last few years youtube originals)
I did briefly meet a guy who was doing little works like that. You may call that a freelance video editor or an unemployed video editor, I don't know. It's also in Western Europe where funnily we have a few major 1st world
countries with depressed wages, so just because you're a $100K software dev doesn't mean everyone lives in US TV show land where even waiters live in million dollar apartments (with a roommate) (in the TV shows actually).

The guy did use an iMac. I won't fault him, that has a very decent display that's like a pseudo standard as well, a stupidly fast quad i5 or i7 CPU - you might call that a shit CPU but well it beats spending $5K on a dual Pentium III with SCSI and maxed out RAM doesn't it? (for the tower only). And finally it has a low footprint and is like a really really good laptop or a plain desktop.
And I'm an Apple hater.
So, he deserved better hardware but iMac can be a nice low end editing station.

Re:Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

After slicing through the adhesive that secures the 4K display to the iMac's housing

Still not easily upgradeable.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[drinkypoo]

But we're all to familiar with the software failures on windows. So we use Macs.

Because you prefer beach balls to blue screens? Whatever makes you happy, sport.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Blaskowicz]

There's nothing insidious about raping your wife, because we have condoms these days.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Njorthbiatr]

Which isn't Apple and never will be.

Their hardware just plains pales in comparison to anything the PC market has to offer. It's not even about "what you can do for cheaper". You don't find Apple products that can run dual GTX 1080 TIs. Even a GTX 1050 ti (a $100 card) will put their Radeon 555 to utter and despicable shame.

And if it's all about thin and light, Nvidia's new Max-Q designs will satisfy you with underclocked GTX 1080s that will simply crush the MBP at the same price range while being nearly just as thin.

All of Apple's devices are made to feel premium without actually being premium. It's marketing at its finest.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Ol Olsoc]

The best equipment is equipment that you can repair, so that you're not stuck buying a whole new computer if something goes wrong and you've got work to do. Only Apple users would ever pretend that hardware never fails.

?? Having done a lot of Video editing in my time, and much under hard deadline pressure, you don't have just one of whatever platform you are working on.

Regardless, that is a hardware and software issue. The editing software suites are integrated nicely among the applications, and they ran after Apple updates, unlike the Windows machines.

With projects running to the hundreds of millions, anyone worried about saving money or upgrading RAM on a few computers might be better off working at Best Buy.

Which leads me to wonder. A couple years ago, I upgraded memory on my personal mid 2011 iMac.

I discovered my Apple had a terrible flaw. I removed two screws on a plate at the bottom of the computer. I then -with my bare hands, popped out the memory that was already there, and installed new RAM.

Apple had forgotten to solder the RAM in place! And it was a dumb design anyhow, since both the new and old RAM hac connector like tabs on them, instead of the DIP or SIP RAM that any other PC company would use if they were going to solder it in.

But I had to get some work done, so I took a chance, popped the new RAM in and miraculously, it worked despite Apple having only soldered in RAM. I put in connector RAM, and it worked. GO figure!

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Ol Olsoc]

For video editing, the best equipment is something you can plug as many GPUs into as possible.

That basically rules out anything running OS X. And if you're running an edit bay that costs $1000/hr+, every second counts.

Do elaborate! The majority of video editing is making the decisions. How does your Anything but OSX (it's MacOS) hardware setup speed the decisions down to the 1 second level.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Ol Olsoc]

The guy did use an iMac. I won't fault him, that has a very decent display that's like a pseudo standard as well, a stupidly fast quad i5 or i7 CPU - you might call that a shit CPU but well it beats spending $5K on a dual Pentium III with SCSI and maxed out RAM doesn't it? (for the tower only). And finally it has a low footprint and is like a really really good laptop or a plain desktop. And I'm an Apple hater. So, he deserved better hardware but iMac can be a nice low end editing station.

I love listening to folks go on about a creative process, and getting their selves wrapped around the axle with the hardware.

Its the software usability, and of course you don't want a slow machine, but in the end, it is the creative process.

Now for heavy 3D rendering, you need multiple machines and fast ones at that. But for editing video footage, a reliable machine running good software is job number 1.

When severely pressed for time, I have done very good work using freaking free iMovie. It ain't Final Cut, but no one noticed. People got their work, and I was accused of making miracles.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Ol Olsoc]

Get a grip. There's nothing "insidious" about soldered RAM. It has its benefits and drawbacks just like everything else. By your logic it's insidious to solder _anything_ down, because someone somewhere might want to replace it. If you want to replace your RAM don't but a computer with soldered RAM and then complain about how you can't replace the RAM.

I had this vision of hardore anything but Mac users demanding that their computers be made with those spring mounted components like the Old Radio Shack electronics kits. There is some bullshit about the article anyhow. iMacs have replaceable RAM. I have a mid-2011 imac I did just that on.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

The best equipment is equipment that you can repair, so that you're not stuck buying a whole new computer if something goes wrong and you've got work to do. Only Apple users would ever pretend that hardware never fails.

Why is the cost of replacement a concern when hardware costs are less than 1% of the annual cost?

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[drinkypoo]

Why is the cost of replacement a concern when hardware costs are less than 1% of the annual cost?

That may be an average, but it's not the case for everyone, that's why.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[MachineShedFred]

It used to be that the majority of video editing was waiting on a progress bar that said "rendering" above it. With GPU compute, those days are mostly gone. Thus, my original post.

Apple hasn't been keeping up in the horsepower department, which has allowed Adobe Premiere back into the game. Especially with the dumpster fire that was the release of Final Cut X.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[TheFakeTimCook]

You aren't wrong, but here's the thing. When apple merely stops doing something insidious that most computer makers never do and never have done, that's not a plus for apple. That's one less negative at best. At BEST. I work as a video editor and I won't be paying for one of these. PCs are just more competitive. Companies have bottom lines and that's really the hard fact they can't solve.

Then enjoy your Windows 10, Spyware Edition!

Seeya!

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[BronsCon]

Which leads me to wonder. A couple years ago, I upgraded memory on my personal mid 2011 iMac.

I discovered my Apple had a terrible flaw. I removed two screws on a plate at the bottom of the computer. I then -with my bare hands, popped out the memory that was already there, and installed new RAM.

Apple had forgotten to solder the RAM in place! And it was a dumb design anyhow, since both the new and old RAM hac connector like tabs on them, instead of the DIP or SIP RAM that any other PC company would use if they were going to solder it in.

But I had to get some work done, so I took a chance, popped the new RAM in and miraculously, it worked despite Apple having only soldered in RAM. I put in connector RAM, and it worked. GO figure!

Why, certainly that would be because they didn't start soldering RAM in until 2012.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[BronsCon]

Rendering...

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[TheFakeTimCook]

The cost of the computer is a trivial expense in professional video editing. Less than 1% of the annual cost. So your company should simply be choosing is the best equipment, whatever it is.

The best equipment is equipment that you can repair, so that you're not stuck buying a whole new computer if something goes wrong and you've got work to do. Only Apple users would ever pretend that hardware never fails.

If you are using your computer for PAYING work, then you don't have the TIME to "repair it yourself".

I'd MUCH rather be able to go to the Apple Store, plunk down another $1200, and take home a brand new iMac. 5 Minutes to unbox and setup. A couple of hours to restore from Time Machine (or from the other Mac, if it still boot far enough to be used as a Source for Migration Assistant), and you're up again making money before Amazon can get you a replacement whatever for that PC...

But remember, the prerequisite here is that you are actually WORKING with your Mac. If it is just for plinking-around, then by all means, waste half a day troubleshooting, another couple of hours chasing the best price on replacement parts, then a few more days for shipping. And THEN you get to start rebuilding your system...

By all means...

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[TheFakeTimCook]

But we're all to familiar with the software failures on windows. So we use Macs.

Because you prefer beach balls to blue screens? Whatever makes you happy, sport.

Beachballs generally have a happy ending. It is equivalent to Windows' Hourglass.

Bluescreens NEVER have a happy ending. Because they ARE the End.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[TheFakeTimCook]

I'm fairly certain that EVERY iMac generation has had replaceable RAM, despite what TFS says.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[GuB-42]

Pros don't repair, unless they are in the repair business
They call the service center and expect some guy to show up the next day with a working computer in exchange for the broken one. What happens behind the scenes is not their problem.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe that's the case in online editing where you are finishing and working with the original camera files, but in offline editing, where you are making the decisions, you're using lower resolution lightweight codecs. Even in the days of FCP 7, there was not very much rendering going on in the offline.

Re:Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

So the RAM/CPU are socketed and theoretically replaceable/upgradeable, but doing so requires CUTTING THE MONITOR AWAY. Great improvement there Apple. I remember when you could upgrade the RAM on an iMac by opening a plastic panel, with no tools or consumables required. On the LC575 (an all-in-one from the mid '90s) the back panel popped off for you to install/upgrade RAM, PDS and comm slot cards, and the internal SCSI hard disk was on a sled that just slid out.

you remember a computer that had a far more ridiculous markup than the current ones do

you remember a computer that was a big failure to apple, it cost far too much to manufacture and it it did not sell well due to its high cost

your comparison to modern systems is bogus

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[drinkypoo]

Beachballs generally have a happy ending. It is equivalent to Windows' Hourglass.

Maybe that's true now. The last time I spent much time with OSX, seeing one for long meant that the whole machine was in an unrecoverable state forever and ever amen.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[david_thornley]

The best equipment is equipment that you can repair, so that you're not stuck buying a whole new computer if something goes wrong and you've got work to do.

No way. If I'm doing something significant, and something goes wrong, it's faster to get a new computer now to just keep working. It may be worthwhile to repair the old one, but if time is important that's a losing game.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[TheFakeTimCook]

Beachballs generally have a happy ending. It is equivalent to Windows' Hourglass.

Maybe that's true now. The last time I spent much time with OSX, seeing one for long meant that the whole machine was in an unrecoverable state forever and ever amen.

When was that? OS X 10.1?

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[koomba]

I highly doubt they went with non-soldered parts due to customer demand for upgradeable parts. In fact, I pretty much guarantee they didn't. Because if it was actually a feature they added for the customers benefit, it wouldn't require you to *void you warranty!* just to upgrade. More likely as someone else suggested, it just happened to be cheaper this time to not use solder. The fact that you can technically upgrade a few parts is just a fringe benefit.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Ol Olsoc]

Especially with the dumpster fire that was the release of Final Cut X.

I see. Funny, it appears that all previous versions of Final cut have stopped working, correct? Explain how exactly that happens. And Adobe Premiere? Okay if you say so. I've used both because I had to do some editing on a PC. Must be to dumb to understand how that is better.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Ol Olsoc]

Maybe that's the case in online editing where you are finishing and working with the original camera files, but in offline editing, where you are making the decisions, you're using lower resolution lightweight codecs. Even in the days of FCP 7, there was not very much rendering going on in the offline.

The answer to the fellow is that he doesn't like Mac. Occam's razor. Did you know that all versions of Final cut stopped working with the release of X? It's true!

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Ol Olsoc]

Why, certainly that would be because they didn't start soldering RAM in until 2012.

No, it is impossible to upgrade a hard drive or any other component, on any iMac ever produced, and that the stuff you bought with your Mac is the stuff it will die with becase there are no possible upgrades. Sarcoff.

Memes are more powerful than the truth some times. But seriously, I've heard the same old lies since there were Macs. Long before 2011. Even the laptops. I just replaced a hard drive with an SSD and memory expansion on a 200(8?) white MacBook for a friend. The Windows guys she went to first told her that it was impossible to upgrade one. As it turns out, you simply pop out the battery, loosen a couple screws and the drive slips out. A couple screws and push a little lever at each memory slot, and the old RAM pops out. You put the new RAM in, the New drive and reverse the procedure. Takes maybe 5 minutes. Breateehd new life into an old "impossible to update" MacBook.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Ol Olsoc]

Rendering...

And sometimes having to stop work because an update borked the computer.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Ol Olsoc]

I'm fairly certain that EVERY iMac generation has had replaceable RAM, despite what TFS says.

Of course. The "live and die with what you bought because you can't upgrade" meme is alive and well because while it is a damn bald face lie, it feels so good for those who need to hate any Apple product feel really good.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Anonymous Coward]

I have had much better luck in recent years, but in the old days if I saw the Watch pointer pop up, my first thought was "oh, this will take a while, be patient."

Seeing the beachball trained me to think, "oh, this app is fucked. Kill it and restart." :-P

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[drinkypoo]

I want to say 10.5. Thankfully, I've been able to avoid Apple hardware since then.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[scdeimos]

Why, certainly that would be because they didn't start soldering RAM in until 2012.

I have a Late 2013 iMac that proves otherwise. Apple couldn't (wouldn't) supply it with 32GB so I bought some Kingston RAM from Umart and upgraded it myself. There's a small door to access the SODIMM slots on the back of the iMac right beside the IEC power socket.

If you feel like getting a pizza cutter out you can also remove the glass display panel from the iMac frame and upgrade the SATA hard disk (or SSD) yourself. iFixit even have upgrade kits for this as Apple does funny business with the temperature sensors (over the SATA connection) on their OEM drives. If you don't get the iFixit temperature sensor dongle then the iMac's fan will go into "safe mode" and run at full speed to protect the system from over-temperature damage.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[BronsCon]

If you only have one workstation you're probably not that serious about your editing work. If you have more than one, you move to another.

And either way, you spend more time waiting for rendering than you'll lose to the occasional bad update which, by the way, I've experienced on macOS as well... as recently as yesterday on a barely 6 month old 5k iMac. On the up side, my wife probably won't complain about the strict backup policy I enforce on company-owned machines anymore.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[MachineShedFred]

Interesting. So I guess the decade I spent as a member of the Apple Consultants Network means I hate Macs. And supporting an actual video editing shop that used Final Cut Server, who were left in the lurch when Apple launched FCX - that didn't happen either. And nobody ever makes newer equipment and doesn't write drivers and codecs for old end of life software.

Or, maybe you're making very bad assumptions.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Ol Olsoc]

Interesting. So I guess the decade I spent as a member of the Apple Consultants Network means I hate Macs. And supporting an actual video editing shop that used Final Cut Server, who were left in the lurch when Apple launched FCX - that didn't happen either. And nobody ever makes newer equipment and doesn't write drivers and codecs for old end of life software.

Or, maybe you're making very bad assumptions.

Interesting - you don't post like a person who liikes Macs. Even the Apple puck mouse thinks so.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[MachineShedFred]

I work with Apple stuff every day, but that doesn't mean I can't be critical of decisions they make. I never liked the taste of Kool-aid.

Re: Response from Slashdot readers

[Farmer Tim]

Or you can use this instead of the dongle.

I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Solandri]

Having to slice the adhesive securing the screen to the housing, remove the power supply, hard drive, and fan, and tilt out the logic board to swap memory modules isn't exactly user-friendly. It still gets only a 3/10 for repair-ability.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[gl4ss]

yeah apple just didn't bother yet with soldering the components yet since they don't have market data about demand so it's easier for now.. and you have to break the glue anyways, making it a no no for most users.

they might start doing that for cost cutting without telling anyone though once the new line is up to speed in production.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup, I was right, Slashdot readers would look for every possible reason to whine about anything and everything Apple does. If you don't like it, don't fucking buy one. Get over yourselves. This is actually a significant improvement over previous iMac models, but the haters will whine no matter what. As always, I'm right, and my prediction was vindicated.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet it feels great to always be right

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[rtb61]

It's not really about repairability, for consumer electronics that doesn't really happen. Apple needs to get back to it's roots for PC, computers as a hobby. Fully customisable PCs with a range of parts to choose from, either sold as kit or built in store to customers specifications. Apple lacks that power user computer, the computer aficionado's range of parts to build from.

This as a new line separate from the consumer just use it ranges, if it really wants to tackle M$ head on. Start selling power user's control of their PC devices along with selling them privacy. Bold moves need to be made if they want to take down TinyLimp the beast of Redmond (M$ really have lost most of their swagger and the only thing keeping them going is sheer bloody minded arrogance but there is a big price to pay for that arrogance in the long term).

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

They did not bother to solder the CPU and memory to board as the sockets are already so obsolete that there aren't any upgrades available anymore.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[winphreak]

This sounds like my iPod Video (5G). Sure, I can replace the hard drive and battery, but I'd have to gently separate the case clips and screen from the front cover just to get in.

Dedicated people can do it, but clumsy people like me can't. This sort of thing is what made 3rd party repair shops a thing, whether or not Apple gets money from it.

Either they want to give a nod to those 3rd party shops (doubtful) or they cut costs on the entire manufacturing line to use default, mass produced parts that are also sold to every other motherboard manufacturer.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[thesupraman]

Yep. I was right.
Whiny Apple fans cannot possibly allow any negative comment about their chosen religion without attacking the people making perfectly correct comments on the poor design.

See how it works?

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[tlhIngan]

yeah apple just didn't bother yet with soldering the components yet since they don't have market data about demand so it's easier for now.. and you have to break the glue anyways, making it a no no for most users.

they might start doing that for cost cutting without telling anyone though once the new line is up to speed in production.

Well, the processor is easy. Intel doesn't sell BGA parts yet. Apple's only one customer of Intel and they're only able to buy what Intel can supply. Most likely what Intel can supply immediately in the quantities Apple wants at the price they want precludes BGA parts and soldering.

Apple did the math - Intel can custom produce the CPUs for Apple, but likely the demand is such that Intel doesn't really want to (everyone is waiting for Kaby Lake processors, so when Intel started providing them in quantity, Apple became like everyone else) so quoted Apple the "if you really want it, we can do it" price. Or they can take what Intel is making right now and supplying everyone, with the benefit that it's no longer a custom order and Apple can buy what they need, at the expense of making it socketed. Or in other words, it's cheaper socketed right now because Intel is providing them in quantities to everyone in that format.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

But....

Does it run FreeBSD?
TrueOS?
Linux?

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[_merlin]

So you've forgotten iMacs where you could just flip open the plastic door and replace the RAM, with no tools and no consumable, and no chance of fucking up the process of cutting the display out?

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

You're kidding right?

Their entire market group is "pretty things omgomgomg" and "it's an appliance".

There is 0 incentives to make it upgradeable -- they'll just fork out 3000 for more.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't like it, don't fucking buy one.

We don't buy it, just check the market share for proof.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[PoopJuggler]

Yeah and every computer should still have have ISA slots and MFM hard drives, and all cars should be carbureted. Times change, dude.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[thegarbz]

Having to slice the adhesive securing the screen to the housing, remove the power supply, hard drive, and fan, and tilt out the logic board to swap memory modules isn't exactly user-friendly. It still gets only a 3/10 for repair-ability.

Reminds me of the guy who upgraded the SSD in his Surface Pro 3 by cutting a SDD sized hole in the metal case with a Dremel based on pictures he'd seen of a teardown. The SP3 has a standard upgradable SSD, but it wasn't exactly user friendly either.

http://surfacepro3ssdupgrade.b...

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[_merlin]

I'm not saying they should use obsolete components, just that they should allow components to be replaced. With your analogy, I can replace the battery, spark plugs, injectors, ignition units and ECUs on my car pretty easily. I don't need to cut the bonnet open and glue it shut when I'm done.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[drinkypoo]

It's not really about repairability, for consumer electronics that doesn't really happen.

What? That's crap. Only Apple makes it so hard to work on desktop PCs. Which I have to say is fucking pathetic, if you go back in time Apple's machines used to be the easiest to work on. You didn't even need a screwdriver to open a Mac II series machine, for example, or to replace its power supply.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure the shitty hard drive apple uses isnt MFM?

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because their current way of doing things has been so bad for their bottom line.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Holi]

That ended when the Classic Mac Pro was replaced with the stupid tube, it was also the same time as the launch of their Retina screens. So 2012 was the last year Apple made a decent Mac in my opinion.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[MachineShedFred]

They weren't going for user friendly. They were going for simpler manufacturing. Sockets and DIMM slots gives you that - only one manufacturing line for all 21" models, with chips snapped in at the end based on the orders.

They could still give a shit about upgradeability - if you want that, go buy a ridiculously expensive and wholly outdated 4 year old Mac Pro!

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[MachineShedFred]

You didn't need one for a G4, G5, or Mac Pro either - there was just a latch you pull on, and the whole side comes off, or hinges open.

I absolutely loved working on the G4, where the logic board was mounted to the hinged door. It was a brilliant design.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[LWATCDR]

You are right. Times change. Prices drop on SSDs, ram, and graphics cards improve.
So having SODIMM slots and M2 slots for memory is a great idea. Making it easy to add memory or storage is also great.
My Macbook Pro has 16 GB of ram and an SSD.
I have yet to see any good argument as to why iMacs should not have an easy way to upgrade ram and mass storage. And just to get it out of the way making a desktop thinner is not a good reason. Would a few mm make any difference? Not to me.
The Mac Pro was the disaster I thought it would be. It is now dated and you can not update it. The screams of Thunderbolt as the upgrade path did not work out and are dumb.
A real high-end workstation needs slots and mass storage as well as DIMM slots. The Pro is an example of what happens when you let a designer set the specs and not an engineer.
I have no problem with the Macbook Air being thin at any cost. There is a market for that. There is also a market for an laptop with M2 slots and SO-DIMM slots that the user can upgrade. As a MacBook owner, I want a new MacBook but I want one with M2 and SO-DIMM so I can use it for a long time.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Computers have not been a hobby for almost anyone for at least 20 years, they are a necessity of life now. Sure you can live with out one, but thats really the only case if your one of those people living in the wilderness or homesteading in alaska. For 90+% living with some kind of access to a computer is unthinkable now.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Classic apple strawman

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[TheFakeTimCook]

I want a new MacBook but I want one with M2 and SO-DIMM so I can use it for a long time.

Even at the cost of inferior performance?

Ever wonder why the SSDs in the MacBook Pros are the fastest on the market?

Sockets mean (vastly) increased inductance and capacitance over soldered-in designs.

Increased inductance OR capacitance means slower signal propagation and slower signal rise-times.

Slower signal propogation and slower signal rise-times means SLOWER SPEED.

Got it?

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[TheFakeTimCook]

If you don't like it, don't fucking buy one.

We don't buy it, just check the market share for proof.

Seems to be rather steadily trending upward year over year.

What's your point?

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[TheFakeTimCook]

What sockets are you referring to?

The RAM, which has had the same sockets for quite a bit, now?

The CPU, which just became available LAST MONTH?

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[TheFakeTimCook]

yeah apple just didn't bother yet with soldering the components yet since they don't have market data about demand so it's easier for now.. and you have to break the glue anyways, making it a no no for most users.

they might start doing that for cost cutting without telling anyone though once the new line is up to speed in production.

Well, the processor is easy. Intel doesn't sell BGA parts yet. Apple's only one customer of Intel and they're only able to buy what Intel can supply. Most likely what Intel can supply immediately in the quantities Apple wants at the price they want precludes BGA parts and soldering.

Apple did the math - Intel can custom produce the CPUs for Apple, but likely the demand is such that Intel doesn't really want to (everyone is waiting for Kaby Lake processors, so when Intel started providing them in quantity, Apple became like everyone else) so quoted Apple the "if you really want it, we can do it" price. Or they can take what Intel is making right now and supplying everyone, with the benefit that it's no longer a custom order and Apple can buy what they need, at the expense of making it socketed. Or in other words, it's cheaper socketed right now because Intel is providing them in quantities to everyone in that format.

So how does that explain the socketed RAM?

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[TheFakeTimCook]

You're kidding right?

Their entire market group is "pretty things omgomgomg" and "it's an appliance".

There is 0 incentives to make it upgradeable -- they'll just fork out 3000 for more.

For 99.99999999997% of the computer-using population, the more you can make their computer "like an appliance", the better. Sorry.

Would you rather have to fix the display driver in your microwave before you can heat up your dinner? Would you rather have to fix the focusing-code in your phone's camera before you can take a picture of your daughter's birthday? If the answer to either of those is "yes", than YOU enjoy and expect it when computers act like appliances, too.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[TheFakeTimCook]

It's not really about repairability, for consumer electronics that doesn't really happen.

What? That's crap. Only Apple makes it so hard to work on desktop PCs. Which I have to say is fucking pathetic, if you go back in time Apple's machines used to be the easiest to work on. You didn't even need a screwdriver to open a Mac II series machine, for example, or to replace its power supply.

Ever work on a PowerMac 8500?

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

It hurts?
5400 drives are not standard in this day for a system in this price range. The only reason 5400 drives are used by Apple is because they demand a bigger piece of the pie for an inferior product and you would not have it any other way.
I have not installed a 5400 drive in bargain builds for at least 10 years.
 

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[TheFakeTimCook]

You didn't need one for a G4, G5, or Mac Pro either - there was just a latch you pull on, and the whole side comes off, or hinges open.

I absolutely loved working on the G4, where the logic board was mounted to the hinged door. It was a brilliant design.

I agree that the El Capitan tower was quite the innovative take on the whole "tower" concept.

Oh, and that was a Jony Ive design...

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[TheFakeTimCook]

But....

Does it run FreeBSD?
TrueOS?
Linux?

Actually, Macs have the widest-range of LEGALLY available OSes on the planet.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Even at the cost of performance.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

HOW the fuck is that even remotely the same?
Allowing people to fix what they own is the same as using out dated components in the apple religion?
The problem is you will make excuses for anything apple does.
Solder and glued in components is a feature so is all the other back stabbing shit they pull on phone and laptop customers?

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[david_thornley]

Back when I used Macs almost exclusively, I'd normally upgrade the RAM about midway through the life of the computer. (I'm sufficiently old that I found it hard to believe that a megabyte wasn't really useful for anything except weird jewelry.)

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[koomba]

Yeah, we're just looking for something to complain about, it's a total non-issue. We are talking about a desktop computer here, not a laptop. Never mind the fact that *every* PC desktop I've owned since '93 has at least had easily user upgradeable RAM, and CPU and HDD too if you wanted. Even the ones with terrible, non-standard custom motherboards were easy to upgrade RAM without voiding your warranty and having to literally cut through parts to access it. But you're right, just a bunch of haters holding Apple computers up to some ridiculous, low end bog box store PC standard. Totally unfair.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

LIAR

  http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-mac-lost-most-pc-market-share-in-2016-chart-2017-1

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[crimson tsunami]

Don't you just wish you could heat up your dinner a little bit faster by cheaply upgrading your microwave, instead of shelling out for a new one?
Would you rather your phone had a better camera you could just snap in rather than buying a whole new phone?
If the answer to either of these questions is 'yes', then you enjoy and expect it when computers act like computers.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[TheFakeTimCook]

Don't you just wish you could heat up your dinner a little bit faster by cheaply upgrading your microwave, instead of shelling out for a new one?

Would you rather your phone had a better camera you could just snap in rather than buying a whole new phone?

If the answer to either of these questions is 'yes', then you enjoy and expect it when computers act like computers.

We just all grew up in the pioneer days of computers. In about 20 or 30 years, hardly anyone alive will remember someone that remembers when computers were nothing but boxes of random parts. They'll treat it like someoneone who asked a question about building a television from a kit.

Re: I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Megane]

I think the people now at Apple have forgotten that part of the value that justified their higher price is specifically the ability to upgrade it two or three years later to keep it current.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Megane]

It was also the time of the last good mac mini. 2011-2012 had the best models of Mac Pro, MacBook Pro, and mac mini. They are even still relevant, since Intel's CPUs haven't gotten significantly better in that time.

In my opinion, it was not a coincidence that this started after Steve Jobs died. He was no longer there to say "fuck you" to people to prevent this kind of crap from happening.

It's also not the first time that Apple made crap computers. In the '90s, before Steve came back, Apple made some really bad hardware. In particular, the 8100 series, where you had to remove the logic board to upgrade its memory, but they also made a lot of under-powered, under-RAMmed crap, while at the same time half of the OS was still emulated on PowerPC. The fruity iMacs happened just as he got there, but even they had design problems, as the original model didn't have any external connector faster than 10-12 Mbps. (10BaseT and USB).

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Megane]

I once had to re-spackle the heat-sink compound in a dual-CPU "Windtunnel" G4. It took me fifteen minutes from start to finish, and that's while it was still on the floor.

Re:I suppose that's an improvement, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

https://www.google.com/#&q=hom...
How is this unlike building a television from kit, or upgrading individual components of a computer?

After slicing through the adhesive

[Anonymous Coward]

So what fucking good does removable RAM and CPU do when the case is glued together? How do you seal it back up? Elmer's glue?

Re:After slicing through the adhesive

[Anonymous Coward]

iFixit and eBay sell pretty much a higher stick double sided tape to replace what was removed

Re:After slicing through the adhesive

[Narcocide]

Eh, just don't seal it back up. That way it looks mean.

Re:After slicing through the adhesive

[Megane]

You can use Flex Tape! Have you seen that TV commercial? A guy sliced a fucking boat in half with a power saw, and then taped it back together with that shit!

Really $1300 for a slug ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeeez I built my 3.4G Xeon system for about 2/3 the cost ... 24-G RAM and 2x1-T HDD. Rock-solid for 3-years now. Similar & newer AMD8350 build a bit cheaper. What magic applesauce is worth the price difference?

Re: Really $1300 for a slug ?

[FunkSoulBrother]

Looks nice. Which 4K monitor did you get in this build?

Re:Really $1300 for a slug ?

[Anubis IV]

Why does theirs cost more? Off the top of my head?
- They include a 4K IPS monitor
- They weren't able to get a nerd to build it for free on his own time
- They warranty their work for a year
- They provide telephone, email, and in-person customer support
- They have fixed costs for scaling their operation so they can do more than one at a time
- They need a profit margin to stay in business

All-in-all, that's a pretty good deal for the $400 or so that you've said they're charging over you.

All of which is to say, you can build one-offs for cheaper than the big players if you're willing to work for free, disclaim any responsibility for problems, and keep no inventory on hand. They don't get to do those things if that want to stay in business.

Re:Really $1300 for a slug ?

[Anonymous Coward]

What magic applesauce is worth the price difference?

That would be the ability to run macOS, the only reason to pay 2x or 3x for commodity components. Hackintoshes are not legal, and running macOS on unsupported hardware may toast the hardware.

Re: Really $1300 for a slug ?

[Anonymous Coward]

A 4K monitor is nothing but a gimmick. 1080 is more than enough.

Re: Really $1300 for a slug ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a 4K monitor. Its literally like having 4 1080p monitors on one screen. If this thing had a hole in the back, it'd be perfect.

Re: Really $1300 for a slug ?

[CptLoRes]

4K on a 21.5" using a Radeon Pro 555 is nothing but a bad sales joke, with hardly any practical application.

Re:Really $1300 for a slug ?

[Highdude702]

Looks like you've eaten too much apple sauce.

Re:Really $1300 for a slug ?

[Holi]

"They warranty their work for a year"

Until you upgrade the 5400rpm to something usable and void your warranty.

Re:Really $1300 for a slug ?

[MachineShedFred]

Apparently you don't value your time. You had to research and price out each component, purchase each one, wait for shipping (or drive around town and pick them up putting miles / wear on your vehicle). You had to assemble each and every part. You had to do any troubleshooting. You had to install the OS, and each driver. And, should anything go wrong, it's your time to figure out what it is and fix it.

How many hours did you spend doing all of that? That's the "magic applesauce" that every OEM includes in the price.

Note: I say this having a 6-core X99-based i7 under my desk that I self-assembled, which is dead silent while working full bore. I did it because I get exactly what I want in the box, and at the time no OEM was delivering anything close to what I wanted; not because I believe in some fallacy of saving money, because I actually value my time.

Re: Really $1300 for a slug ?

[Blaskowicz]

It's about Xbox One performance you dumb smug nut. Don't you remember graphics cards like Ati Rage Pro, Matrox and whatever could do 1600x1200 back when you were in your diapers.

The applications using a small fraction of the GPU power would be : HTML, PDF, desktop publishing, terminal emulators, picture editing, and also some 3D shit like Google Earth requires very little GPU power.

Fuck, if Intel graphics from 2007 were more than enough for Vista/7 "Aero" in 1680x1050 don't you think something at least 10x faster will do the job in 3840x2160? What about piece of shit phones that have 1920x1080 or more? Do you know what's GDDR5 or DDR4 memory?

Now, Apple is a scam, but the 21.5" iMac is not terribly bad. It's not an Apple laptop at least. It would be feasible to get one, then wait for the warranty to be over, crack it open, replace the 8GB memory with 32GB and the hard drive with a better one. Though by all means, get a linux desktop if you prefer it.

Re:Really $1300 for a slug ?

[drinkypoo]

You don't have to do the extensive research yourself any more. You can just load up someone else's build, someone who's already doing what you want to be doing. The actual build takes a couple of hours tops if you don't care how purty your cable routing is.

If you're putting more than one or two systems into a corporate environment, you basically have to buy something with support. If you are trying to come up with one very good machine at home, it is almost insensible to buy it prebuilt unless you are getting it at some kind of massive discount.

Re:Really $1300 for a slug ?

[Anonymous Coward]

"They warranty their work for a year"

Until you upgrade the 5400rpm to something usable and void your warranty.

1. that's a lie
2. the vast majority of systems never require warranty service, so your point is basically moot anyway
3. 5400 rpm is certainly usable to a large number of users
4. why did you buy a computer that you knew was not capable of what you want to do? Why didn't you buy the right system in the first place? You know that used macs have great resale value, if your computer doesn't cut it, sell it on ebay and buy one that does meet your needs.
5. "professional" users that rely on their computers don't do mickey-mouse upgrades

Re:Really $1300 for a slug ?

[TheFakeTimCook]

"They warranty their work for a year"

Until you upgrade the 5400rpm to something usable and void your warranty.

You've got Apple confused with Dell and HP.

Apple has an unwritten (but occasionally stated) policy of not voiding a warranty just because an owner did an upgrade, unless the upgrade was done in such a way as to cause actual damage to the unit.

Re:Really $1300 for a slug ?

[david_thornley]

You obviously haven't tried putting computers together with my fingers.

Re:Really $1300 for a slug ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Countries with actual statutory warranties don't have to rely on the kindness of strangers.
Maybe you are just remembering countries where Apple is forced to abandon its price gouging shenanigans?

Did you forget the other thread you spammed constantly already?

Upgrade process

[psy]

1) Buy lower end system
2) Upgrade using cheaper 3rd party components
3) ???
4) Error 53

You are so right

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like my new car comes with the added benefit of swapping out the foam padding sewn inside the seats, I just have to slice through the fucking leather to get to it.

I was severely let down

[Anonymous Coward]

Why didn't Tim Cook acknowledge the Apple II team?

Re: BEAUHD IS AN IMBECILE MILLENIAL!

[Anonymous Coward]

which includes 8GB of 2400MHz DDR4 memory, a Radeon Pro 555 graphics card with 2GB of VRAM, and a 1TB 5400-RPM hard drive.

Hey Beau, maybe you got an iMac model from the.....1990s?
 
  VRAM was literally discontinued before you were born. We really think you should finish high school before becoming a "senior editor." Slashdot needs REAL editors who can weed out bad articles and bad summaries. There is a lot of fallacious drivel spewed here sending Slashdot into its death throes.

No

[Khyber]

"removing the warranty voiding stickers on the backside of the logic board"

We've got case law that explicitly forbids this. Quit spreading this fucking rumor.

Re:No

[mysidia]

We've got case law that explicitly forbids this. Quit spreading this fucking rumor.

The stickers probably Do say something like "Warranty Void if Removed", and there might be a term of "supplementary" contracts such as Applecare that you not touch the stickers.

Even if not; as far as I know in the US there's no law against manufacturers Falsely telling consumers in the wording that the warranty will be void if sticker removed, then it becomes a lesser known fact that the company might still have to honor warranty.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

that doesn't mean apple won't fight it or deny a warranty claim.. nor will they stop fighting 'right to repair' legislation, either.

the fact that these two items are, indeed, replaceable by a technician, is to assist *their* repair centers, not help or benefit you or third parties, and to lower their costs (vs replacing the entire mainboard) when performing warranty repairs or refurbishing parts for resale or to use as warranty replacements.

changeable cpu and ram also means foxconn only has to produce one logic board, and their assembly robots can drop whatever cpu and ram on it that apple wants for a particular batch, giving them more flexibility and less lead-time required for orders. convenience and cost savings for them.. they don't give a fuck about your desires to fix or upgrade your own hardware. zero fucks given.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you going to spend more on lawyers than to fix the damn thing?

If not, the sticker holds.

Re:No

[AmiMoJo]

There's an actual photo of it in TFA:

https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfr...

It might be unenforcable, but lots of manufacturers still do it and then try to bullshit ignorant customers.

Re:No

[geekmux]

"removing the warranty voiding stickers on the backside of the logic board"

We've got case law that explicitly forbids this. Quit spreading this fucking rumor.

Buying lawyers to fight Apple is cheaper than buying new hardware? Quit spreading this fucking rumor.

Consumer laws hardly mean shit anymore. Even a class-action suit would be pocket change for Apple to pay, and would result in you getting pocket change as a reward years from now.

Re:No

[drinkypoo]

The stickers probably Do say something like "Warranty Void if Removed", and there might be a term of "supplementary" contracts such as Applecare that you not touch the stickers.

Contracts cannot trump the law. You have a right to repair with any compatible parts. It doesn't matter what you've agreed to. Computers that are actually illegal for you to open are covered by law, like smog test machines.

Even if not; as far as I know in the US there's no law against manufacturers Falsely telling consumers in the wording that the warranty will be void if sticker removed, then it becomes a lesser known fact that the company might still have to honor warranty.

That's correct, it's totally legal for Apple to defraud customers in this way.

Re:No

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Refer the matter to the State Attorney General. He or she is already a sunk cost. And they probably won't mind setting your local Apple store straight with a terse letter. It's the easiest part of their job.

Re:No

[drinkypoo]

Are you going to spend more on lawyers than to fix the damn thing?

Me, personally? No. But what I will do is take every opportunity to make myself annoying and expensive until I get what I want. I will write articles, I will call up the phone chain, I will send letters to elected officials, and complain via the BBB until it's cheaper just to give me what I want. Which, by the way, is not anything I shouldn't be getting. But then, I personally won't buy shit from Apple in the first place. I think their hardware was fairly magnificent in the Macintosh II era, poor graphics performance aside — remember, until the 8*24 GC, which was itself the price of a low-end clone PC, the Macintosh had no graphics acceleration in spite of being an entirely graphical computer, with everything being done through the CPU. This is why the Amiga was able to beat the pants off of its performance while using the same processors: it actually had accelerated graphics hardware. An Amiga 2000 with an Emplant board and a 68030@25MHz accelerator was faster when emulating a Macintosh IIci than an actual Macintosh IIci was.

I frequently hold up the IIci as an example of when Macintosh hardware was Great, with a capital G. Compact, quiet, relatively powerful, tool-free case, SCSI, slots, ports. All the stuff you expect in a really expensive desktop PC. And it was; you could have a 486 system for half the money. But did you really want to run Adobe software on Windows NT 3.1? No, no you didn't. You didn't even want to run it on 3.51, at least not until towards EOL.

The last Great piece of Apple hardware IMNSHO was the non-liquid-cooled Dual G5. It had All The Things, and it was attractive to boot. But Apple crappled on the PPC. It's not like it was a moving target, and the later machines are still more than capable of doing real work, but Apple decided not to bother kicking out any new OS updates for them and now there is no software support. The last Mac I actually used for anything was a Bondi Blue G3, the one with the UDMA data corruption error. Apple told customers to buy an IDE card ($20 for the PC, $100 for the same card with an Apple rom on it, whee!) or buy FWB toolkit to slow down their device (use a PIO mode, no less) so that it wouldn't error. When they folded the old Techinfo Library into the new Knowledge Base they included articles both older and newer than that one, but that one didn't make it. Show of hands for those who don't believe they did that intentionally. Meanwhile Microsoft still has all their foibles and fuckups back to DOS 5 on the web for all to see.

Re:No

[mysidia]

Contracts cannot trump the law. You have a right to repair with any compatible parts. It doesn't matter what you've agreed to.

If you sign up for an additional contract which you pay more money for such as "Applecare", then it is Not your product warranty --- your warranty was promises your manufacturer made about the fitness of your product; instead Applecare, Etc, is is a service plan which you have acquired as a separate agreement.

Contracts don't trump the law, but it doesn't have to --- special extended service plans with other perks CAN be written to terminate if you try to do your own repairs or make modifications to the product, then you may be left with only your original warranty terms and period (that might already be exhausted, therefore you're no longer covered).

Re: BEAUHD IS AN IMBECILE MILLENIAL!

[Beau1080p]

Sry- article is already up and posted and would be unfair to change it, will do better next time

-=x]-Beau-x[=-

Re: BEAUHD IS AN IMBECILE MILLENIAL!

[Anonymous Coward]

No you won't.

new iYawn, so 1999, so what

[Anonymous Coward]

iYawn, Apple announce another iMac 'advance'. So what? iMac is.. so.. 1999. Why should I spend a ton of money on golden handcuffs? I'm not an iDiot.

Re:new iYawn, so 1999, so what

[Anonymous Coward]

You? You shouldn't. Obviously.
Why do you care what other people do with their own money?

Re:new iYawn, so 1999, so what

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd tell the person getting caught up in a scam "Hey buddy, thats a scam."

Do I really care? No. But its the right thing to do.

I'm not a "hardwear guy", but does this mean...

[Frosty Piss]

a Kaby Lake processor that's not soldered onto the logic board.

...that you could upgrade the CPU in the future with something that fit the same socket?

Re:I'm not a "hardwear guy", but does this mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but it's a painful process you'll want to avoid at all cost.

Re:I'm not a "hardwear guy", but does this mean...

[Narcocide]

Theoretically, yes. Though, theoretically it would be equally possible for Apple to block compatibility with non-stock parts through firmware or software mechanisms.

Re:I'm not a "hardwear guy", but does this mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

In theory yes. In practice they could lock out unofficial configurations in the BIOS/OS. After all this is't an OEM board that is going to try and support every CPU that will fit the socket. Their BIOS/OS might only recognize the official configurations they released, either out of laziness or malice

Re:I'm not a "hardwear guy", but does this mean...

[drinkypoo]

In theory yes, for Kaby Lake the answer is probably no, because you shouldn't expect many new processors for that socket because Intel has already brought out the new socket. Kaby Lake X is actually inferior to Kaby Lake, but they'll have real processors out for the new socket soon enough.

Re:I'm not a "hardwear guy", but does this mean...

[GuB-42]

...that you could upgrade the CPU in the future with something that fit the same socket?

It is more about repairing, or salvaging.
I never upgraded a CPU in my life without also changing the motherboard and RAM, or the complete laptop.
By the time you'll want a better CPU, the latest generation will probably won't be compatible. And you might end up limited by basically everything else.

Mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

LOVE IT

Fir57

[Anonymous Coward]

than this BSD box, MECHANICS. SO I'M FrreBSD's

and soon people will be claiming

[Anonymous Coward]

that Apple invented the Upgradeable computer

Re:and soon people will be claiming

[Anonymous Coward]

How courageous of them

Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[raymorris]

> Apple needs to get back to it's roots for PC, computers as a hobby.

Apple could do that if somehow their products completely failed and they were in survival mode. Apple is currently the largest computer company in the world and the ninth largest company in the world. They sell 17 MILLION Macs every year, for 23 BILLION dollars in Mac sales.

The entire "computers as a hobby" market is maybe a 23 million dollars each year, one tenth of one percent of Mac sales. They would literally give up 99.9% of their sales by focusing on people who want to tinker with their computers. To make it worse, they'd lose most of their margin. Hobbyists aren't going to buy Apple-branded RAM for $300 if they can get similarly speced RAM from Kingston for $200.

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is currently the largest computer company in the world

I love this "alternative news"....

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/01/china-based-lenovos-ride-to-top-spot-of-pc-business.html

No, Apple is not the largest computer company in the world. Stop spouting out your ass.

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[Anonymous Coward]

http://fortune.com/2017/01/11/lenovo-hp-dell-pc-market/

If you want an actual number, Lenovo shipped 55.5 million PCs in 2016. HP is at 54.2 million. Dell at 40.7 million.

It lists Apple at 18.4 million PCs.

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[drinkypoo]

Hobbyists aren't going to buy Apple-branded RAM for $300 if they can get similarly speced RAM from Kingston for $200.

Neither are professionals. My mom had a Mac IIci back when those were hot, for graphic arts. She ordered it with minimum specs, and then I helped her to source RAM, HD, and laser printer from other vendors, saving her thousands of dollars. Only idiots will buy that stuff from Apple, which is why Apple focuses on the idiot market.

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[MachineShedFred]

It depends on your definitions of "largest" and "computer".

If the metric for "largest" you are going with is market capitalization, then yes, they are the largest. Nobody with a working brain would do that, but hey, it's CNBC we're talking about - of course a stock market news site is going to use stock market metrics. Similarly, if you include smartphones and tablets as "computers" than Apple might actually beat Lenovo in volume numbers. Maybe. And again, only some idiot Wall Street analyst would do that - not anyone who actually understands the tech sector.

So yes, if you go with the traditional (read: correct) definitions, you are right. If you go with the mealy-mouthed Wall Street news version, then they are right. Isn't this fun?

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[MachineShedFred]

Oh, you were replying to the GP post, who is pulling figures from his ass, that I ignored. Carry on.

Sometimes I wish Slashdot had an edit button.

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[Anonymous Coward]

Whole lotta idiots out there.

Apple cries all the way to the bank.

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[drinkypoo]

Whole lotta idiots out there.
Apple cries all the way to the bank.

I am absolutely not disagreeing with the effectiveness of their business model. If there is a problem with it, it's that they have to continue producing interesting products to keep their halo, and it's not clear that they can do that with their current leadership.

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[Anonymous Coward]

The entire "computers as a hobby" market is maybe a 23 million dollars each year

OK, that's way into drug testing and psych evaluation territory as far as the reality warp in between your ears. Newegg alone in 2015 grossed 2.6 billion. Granted not all that was what you call hobby computers, but it is only one retailer among many.

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[TheFakeTimCook]

http://fortune.com/2017/01/11/lenovo-hp-dell-pc-market/

If you want an actual number, Lenovo shipped 55.5 million PCs in 2016. HP is at 54.2 million. Dell at 40.7 million.

It lists Apple at 18.4 million PCs.

...And if Lenovo, HP and Dell are STILL selling that many PeeSees at this late stage of the game, that MUST mean that even most PeeSee owners don't "Upgrade" their computers either, because neither Windows nor Linux are enjoying GROWTH to the point where that many NEW PeeSees would be needed; people would just be UPGRADING their existing ones.

Amirite?

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[TheFakeTimCook]

if you include smartphones and tablets as "computers" than Apple might actually beat Lenovo in volume numbers. Maybe. And again, only some idiot Wall Street analyst would do that - not anyone who actually understands the tech sector.

ORLY?

Then explain the many bloody battles I've had on Slashdot, where the typical AC Apple-Hating Slashtard would argue to the ends of the earth that his precious Android Smartphone or Tablet was INDEED a "General-Purpose Computer".

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[TheFakeTimCook]

Sometimes I wish Slashdot had an edit button.

Sometimes?

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[TheFakeTimCook]

Hobbyists aren't going to buy Apple-branded RAM for $300 if they can get similarly speced RAM from Kingston for $200.

Neither are professionals. My mom had a Mac IIci back when those were hot, for graphic arts. She ordered it with minimum specs, and then I helped her to source RAM, HD, and laser printer from other vendors, saving her thousands of dollars. Only idiots will buy that stuff from Apple, which is why Apple focuses on the idiot market.

Dude!

You just called your Mom an IDIOT!!!

I'm tellin'!!!

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[Anonymous Coward]

You have said many conflicting things or irrevelent things.

One thing you have right, replacing & upgrading components, is not a hobby. Nor should such care be considered a hobby, I mean is brushing our teeth a hobby? Or changing clothes? (ok for my wife that last one is a hobby I pay dearly for :P )

Nevertheless:
>They would literally give up 99.9% of their sales by focusing on people who want to tinker with their computers.
So 99.9% of Apple's customers are upgrade adverse? And to offer such options would repel those folks away? Huh?
They'd buy it and just not upgrade- not abandon their favorite platform.

>Hobbyists aren't going to buy Apple-branded RAM for $300 if they can get similarly speced RAM from Kingston for $200.
Yes, hardly anyone buys Apple branded RAM. Hence the reason Apple tried to exclude third party sellers with their soldering idea- everyone knows this. What's that sentence about? You've just announced we all breath air. Yes and... ?

Re:Mac is 1,000 times the size of the hobby market

[MachineShedFred]

I can't explain something I don't agree with.

Apple.

[ledow]

Cor.

It's almost as powerful as the laptop I bought many years ago, though it obviously has a later generation of processor. It might even be "as upgradeable" but I think it's unlikely unless it has a SODIMM slot underneath a flap on the back of the case (you shouldn't need to "dismantle" in order to "upgrade").

I still don't get the Apple thing at all.

Re:Apple.

[blindseer]

I still don't get the Apple thing at all.

Perhaps I can help.

Computers just got so reliable, inexpensive, and integrated now that it just does not make sense for a large portion of the population to upgrade or repair computers on their own. I've seen this happen in less than five years at work.

It used to be that we'd have parts on hand to replace all kinds of components on computers. We had a box of Ethernet cards. We had a box of video cards. Another box with RAM. A few other boxes of more random parts like sound cards, parallel port cards, hard drive controllers, a motherboard or two, serial cards, a few spare power supplies, and so on. Every so often we clean out the server room and out go these spare parts as they become outdated and not replaced with a current equivalent. Or rather the equivalent is now just keeping a few more spare computers on hand.

How do we fix computers now? If the computer is a bit older and it comes in for a software refresh then we'll put in some RAM that was scavenged from a computer that was disposed of. If the problem can be traced to a bad hard drive then it's replaced. Any other hardware problem and the computer is sent back under warranty, or if it's not under warranty then it's simply replaced. We still have a box of video cards but most of the computers now don't even have a slot to put a video card into. Given that these cards have DVI and HDMI ports and DisplayPort is pretty much the default now I expect that we won't even keep video cards on hand soon.

I suspect that in another five years we won't even bother with RAM and hard drives. Apple has simply decided to cater to the market that sees the computer as a "whole" and not a collection of components. They've been operating under this philosophy for a long time with their low end computers. Even with higher end computers this is becoming the norm.

Apple is not alone in this philosophy. We don't have any Apple computers at work but all the new ones look a lot like an iMac or Mac Mini in their features and form. The servers are getting to be "black boxes" now and aren't upgraded, just replaced.

Computers just got so cheap that it's just not worth the time to fix them or upgrade them any more.

Re:Apple.

[ledow]

I agree with almost everything you say.

It's been YEARS since I had to slot in an expansion card or do anything particularly complicated. I specifying desktops and servers and expect my suppliers to supply the right bits (I don't mind putting them in, so long as they are certified compatible by my supplier).

However, the problem I have is with this:

"Computers just got so cheap that it's just not worth the time to fix them or upgrade them any more."

Apparently, not so. My laptop cost half the price of a MacBook, many years ago. And still out-smarts it. And can, in fact, run MacOS (with VMWare). And it does so in such a way that the MacOS runs just as fast as I've ever seen a Mac run it, while also running Windows and my other stuff in the background.

The problem I have here is that this Apple is out-gunned by an older, cheaper laptop from someone who doesn't even bother to go upgrading their hardware. The only things I've done are add a 1Tb SSD (to the second empty drive bay), and change the wireless card for an 802.11ac (from 802.11n). The RAM was maxed on purchase. I'm not even sure you can upgrade the graphics or processor, I'm not even tried to look, but I suspect it's impossible.

That's what I'm talking about when I complain about Apple. Not only are they overpriced, they are outgunned, and you can do NOTHING to fix it. Even a bog-standard laptop has more upgradeability and power, without paying anywhere near the same price. And every "unique feature" of an Apple device I can get - MacOS just runs.

I *do* manage Macs, Mac "servers" (Mac Mini's with a software upgrade, nowhere near being server-grade hardware!), blade servers, storage arrays, as well as hundreds of PCs, laptops, Chromebooks and iPads. And I still don't "get" the Apple thing at all.

I've been pressing to ditch the Apple hardware for years. We're slowly getting there as people realise we can buy 3 PC's for every Mac, 2 Chromebooks for every iPad and servers with proper hardware for every Mac Mini, and then also skip a myriad problems in the process and get hardware that works faster and harder for that price.

Re: BEAUHD IS AN IMBECILE MILLENIAL!

[stealth_finger]

unfair to who?

Wouldn't surprise me if...

[Anonymous Coward]

The second you boot it up with different RAM sticks and a different CPU, Error 53.

surely..

[Anonymous Coward]

this must be a manufacturing defect.

Re: BEAUHD IS AN IMBECILE MILLENIAL!

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be unfair to you
 
-=[x]\ Beau /[x]=- (senior editor

Lost the taste for apples

[boulat]

I don't think I would be getting another MBP or iMac.

For a company with a quarter of a trillion in assets to offer their users 16GB MBPs, shitty Radeons, and no 10nm CPUs (sure, blame Intel on your supply management issues), is just beyond acceptable level for me. And the price markup is just insulting, its like I'm being trolled by mediocracy.

Both size and profit. Lenovo 1.4%, Mac 19%

[raymorris]

Yes the SIZE of a company is it's market cap, period. Revenue is revenue, profit is profit, and size is size - capitalization.

If you want to compare to Lenovo, first yes tablet computers are computers; they are the computers that everyone is buying. And Apple sells more of them than anyone. You want to pretend a tablet computer isn't a computer? You want to look only at old-fashioned desktops? Okay, Lenovo makes 1.4% on each desktop they sell. Apple makes 19%. So Apple makes more money selling desktops than Lenovo does.

Re:Both size and profit. Lenovo 1.4%, Mac 19%

[cheesybagel]

Yes and Tesla is bigger than Ford right.

Re:Both size and profit. Lenovo 1.4%, Mac 19%

[MachineShedFred]

Sorry, volume shipments means more, especially when the sell-through rate is very close to the shipments. Just shipping a shit ton of product to a reseller where it sits and rots doesn't count (Apple doesn't do this, but it's a trick used in the past to elevate reported sales numbers - Windows RT surface tablets come to mind here).

My point is that there are several metrics you could use for distinguishing "largest" - market cap is one, but it's not a very good one. Market cap is a multiple of stock price, and stock price is volatile and vulnerable to hype bubbles. It also takes into account the total assets of the corporation, and all business - does the mountain of cash that Apple is sitting on overseas really add anything to how many units they ship? How about real estate? Does that matter? Because it's certainly factored into market cap.

Unit shipments, market penetration, and market share are probably better metrics to use; and as I said before, unless you count phones in with everything else, Apple doesn't come up on top - not even second.

Include iPad all you want - iPad + Mac still doesn't beat Lenovo or HP. In Q2, Apple sold 8.92 million iPads, and 4.11 million Macs. Total of 13.03 million "computers". Note that my cited sources are hardly press that are unfriendly to Apple.

Lenovo sold 12.3 million PCs in around the same time period (and that's with HP taking the #1 spot), plus another 2.1 million tablets - hey, if you include iPad in Apple's numbers, you should also include Lenovo's tablets. That's a total of 14.4 million "computers".

13.03 million < 14.4 million. And Lenovo isn't even #1 in traditional PC sales - HP is with 13.1 million PCs sold - still more than Apple's combined Macs + tablets.

Yeah, I know - Apple makes more money than the other guys. You don't think some of that comes from the iPhone, do you? Or maybe the online services - I hear that iTunes is fairly popular. Or maybe software sales?

When you compare like numbers, Apple just doesn't hold the crown. And you know what? That's perfectly fine - they aren't looking to be #1 in market share, just the same as BMW and Mercedes aren't - selling a high quality product with a healthy margin on it has been Apple's business since the late 90s, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But let's not inflate them to be what they aren't.

Now can we finally stop this PC vs Mac nonsense?

[hackel]

This clearly proves beyond any reasonable doubt that a Mac IS a PC. This has never been questioned by anyone who knows the slightest bit about computers, of course, but you still here this nonsense terminology thrown around. Now that they are both using the same commodity components, there really is no excuse.

Re:Now can we finally stop this PC vs Mac nonsense

[david_thornley]

The important thing about a computer is the applications available and, to a lesser extent, the OS. The hardware is only important to support that.

almost...

[Anonymous Coward]

best decision they have made in years. only one caveat. is the power supply actually strong enough to support any upgrades?....