The US Can't Leave The Paris Climate Deal Until 2020 (nytimes.com)
An anonymous reader quotes the New York Times:
Last week, President Trump announced that the United States would withdraw from the Paris climate agreement. But it will take more than one speech to pull out: Under the rules of the deal, which the White House says it will follow, the earliest any country can leave is November 4, 2020. That means the United States will remain a party to the accord for nearly all of Mr. Trump's current term... Nov. 4, 2019 is the earliest date that the United States can submit a written notice to the United Nations that it is withdrawing from the Paris deal -- exactly three years after it came into force. As soon as that happens, the United States can leave the accord in exactly one year... If a new president enters the White House on Jan. 20, 2021, he or she could easily submit a written notice to the United Nations that the United States would like to rejoin the Paris accord. Within 30 days, the United States could re-enter the agreement and submit a new pledge for how the country plans to tackle climate change.
The article also acknowledges "a growing coalition of states, cities and companies that are pledging to do as much as they can to meet the United States' climate goals on their own."
The article also acknowledges "a growing coalition of states, cities and companies that are pledging to do as much as they can to meet the United States' climate goals on their own."
Since the Paris deal was never submitted to the Senate for confirmation, it is not a legally binding treaty, only a verbal agreement by Obama.
I am not arguing for or against the climate deal, just pointing out a simple fact of US law.
Citation: US Constitution Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, includes the Treaty Clause, which empowers the president of the United States to propose and chiefly negotiate agreements, which must be confirmed by the Senate, between the United States and other countries, which become treaties between the United ..
-- Will program for bandwidth
with no enforceable requirements. It's a moot point when we pull out. The point is that we've made the gesture to pull out. It's basically a giant middle finger to the rest of the world.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Let me get this straight... It's a non-binding accord (other than we can't leave until 4 Nov 2019). So nothing changes.
Correct. This is just political mastrubation.
Meanwhile, scientists and engineers are busy working on better solar panels, more efficient wind turbines, biofuels, battery tech, integrated grids, carbon sequestration, etc. Stuff that actually matters.
Nerds will save the world, not politicians.
None of the terms are binding. So while we technically we might still have to be part of it until 2020, if we decide to throw it out, we can just start ignoring totally now.
Since the Paris deal was never submitted to the Senate for confirmation, it is not a legally binding treaty, only a verbal agreement by Obama.
I am not arguing for or against the climate deal, just pointing out a simple fact of US law.
Citation: US Constitution Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, includes the Treaty Clause, which empowers the president of the United States to propose and chiefly negotiate agreements, which must be confirmed by the Senate, between the United States and other countries, which become treaties between the United ..
That's not even remotely true.
The Paris deal isn't a treaty, it's an "accord". Because that's different, it can be agreed to by the president without any buy-in from the legislature. It comes under the "umbrella" treaty agreement the US has with the UN which *was* ratified by congress.
And if you disagree, note that Obama actually taught constitutional law at college, and no one disagreed with the action at the time - no one in the legislature brought the issue or the supreme court, no group in the US sued the government and pushed it to the supreme court.
I don't know where people get these ideas from. A plain-text reading of the constitution does not always convey the complexity and intricacies of the underlying law.
I suppose we could do nothing different, but I'm not sure how that helps.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
It doesn't matter what Trump is going to do. The companies and scientists in the US that would be doing the work under the deal have unanimously said they are still going to do the work. The only difference here is that the US wont be contributing money to 3rd world countries so they can step up their game, which honestly inst that big of a deal because none of them pollute even near as close as the US, China, and India (the latter two aren't even going to start their work until after 2020 anyway).
Huh...
1) I believe the science is valid and that AGW is a problem.
C) I dislike Trump, a great deal.
VIII) I have no problems with us withdrawing from the accord, States and businesses are picking up the slack, or so it appears.
So, frankly, I don't much care that you don't like Trump. I don't like him either. Now, put on your big boy pants and go find a way to be nicer to Mother Nature. It'd be far more productive for you to help than it is for you to sit and complain.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
If it's so much of a nothingburger where the US pays and developing nations don't, why bother trying to stay in? As for the states and other entities wishing to bankrupt themselves into compliance, that's on them.
It'd be more credible if it was an actual treaty and developing nations actually did more than face-saving gestures.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Now, put on your big boy pants and go find a way to be nicer to Mother Nature. It'd be far more productive for you to help than it is for you to sit and complain.
You don't think someone could do both ?
(And the US is already one of the least polluting nation
I keep hearing that we are one of the worst, or at least the worst per-capita. But maybe that depends on how you define pollution. In regards to the Paris agreement, CO2 is the relevant pollutant. The EPA claims that we are second to China which probably matches the worst per-capita statement, since we have a way lower population than China. Wikipedia has some good charts too.
(And the US is already one of the least polluting nations
Not according to wikipedia. You're #2 in absolute emissions and #7 per capita. The U.S. produces over 14% of the world's total emissions.
/Paris/ is an accord of the UNFCCC. The USA can withdraw from the UNFCCC one year after giving its notice.
They talked about this recently on Science Friday, but here's an article with quite a bit of detail:
http://www.heritage.org/enviro...
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
There are countries that will continue to fund those efforts and there are countries that won't.
Most of these efforts are being funded by profit-seeking capitalists, not "countries".
Build a better battery, and the world will beat a path to your door.
Actually it's a good thing because carbon credits are exactly that, credits you can exchange for carbon fuels. The goal was to have richer nation pay for renewables and the money they save on carbon fuels would go to poor nations so they can better themselves by paying for the cheaper carbon fuels and get themselves (hopefully) out of poverty, just like previous aid to Africa has helped them not be part of the third world anymore.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
it also requires developed nations to give $100 billion annually to the less-developed nations.
To be clear, yet again, all country contributions to this are voluntary. Obama committed the U.S. to $3 billion. (Not $3 billion/year -- $3 billion TOTAL, of which $1 billion has already been contributed.) There is no requirement for the U.S. to contribute more than that, unless it voluntarily says it will.
And the US is already one of the least polluting nations,
Sorry, but this is just absolute nonsense. Among developed nations, the U.S. emits more CO2 per capita that any country other than Luxembourg. It's emits roughly double the amount per capita compared to most developed nations. And almost all of 10 or so countries with higher per capita emissions are in the Middle East.
As for absolute emissions (i.e., total, not per capita), the U.S. is consistently 2nd the world, following China.
You are perhaps correct if by "pollution" you mean stuff like particulates, etc. -- yes, the U.S. has managed to cut down on smog and such in recent decades. But the Paris Agreement has mostly to do with carbon emissions, where the U.S. is one of the MOST "polluting nations." Claiming it is one of the "least" is misleading at best in this context.
>"Most of these efforts are being funded by profit-seeking capitalists, not "countries".Build a better battery, and the world will beat a path to your door."
Exactly. There are many, many millions of Americans, regardless of political party, who are itching to jump on clean, affordable, efficient products. Look at LED bulbs as a perfect example. We didn't need legislation or mandates or public service messages. We just needed a good product and some time. After several years, they are taking over and flying off the shelves.
Next up, electric cars- who doesn't want a powerful, quiet, efficient, vehicle with a fraction of the moving parts and things to fail? The private solar panel industry is just exploding now. People can't get enough!
And who in the USA doesn't want the country to be energy-independent?
Artificially trying to force things down people's throats is nowhere near as effective as education and motivation followed by real products people can buy.
Our per capita pollution levels are the highest in the world. Don't be an idiot.
People are in favour of it because the see that countries like China and India are taking it seriously and exceeding their goals by considerable margins.
The US is the only big polluter that doesn't want to clean up.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Like mandating catalytic exhaust in Los Angeles did not reduce the smog problem, right? Like for India to mandate cars to be electric by 2030 will not modify long term investments and R&D for the whole world?
Don't you have a car? What do you buy to make it go, who sells it to you and which side of the "debate" are they on?
Gasoline makes a car go. What's your point? It's not a philosophy. I don't buy it because I believe in someone's worldview, I buy it because it beats walking.
The groupthink is so strong that you guys can't even make coherent arguments.
Unfortunately the politicians do think of them as only purses.
I thought USA introduced "Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007", the "Incandescent ban". While Compact Fluorescent meet the requirements (along with halogen), good manufacturers had given way to cheap Chinese CFL manufacturers, which people bought because they were cheap, then complained when they wouldn't work upside down in enclosed dimmer fixtures. As well concerns over mercury waste gives LED an advantage.
Right now LED still seems to be in the realm of quality manufacturers, though I'm sure cheap manufacturers will flood the market with garbage before too long.
I'm currently satisfied with the performance of my Philips LED screw in bulbs, as I was 15 years ago with my Philips screw in CFLs. First the Philips "flat" LED bulbs, now this lamp which is one of the best 2700K bulbs I've seen, and has run in my enclosed (but not recessed) ceiling fixtures. The other benefit of LED over CFL is they don't yellow shades from UV emissions.
It also doesn't hurt that my electrical utility gives away rebates twice a year for LED lights (but stopped a few years back for CFL).
We also are approaching diminishing returns: Incandescent-CFL-LED: 60W-13W-9W. I am amazed in the commercial world where a 400W Metal Halide can be replaced with a 200W LED with three times the life.
I read this interesting article about how conspiracy theorists tend to be narcissists. I'm beginning to suspect it's true.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
... So we never entered into it in the first place.
Presidential agreements are not binding on future administrations.
https://www.washingtonpost.com...
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
I don't believe you can fit 10,000 people and an elephant in your bedroom no matter what your computer model say .
You are correct that there were some incentives placed. But the real driver was the availability of something that worked and could pay for itself in energy savings. Once the public was offered products that produced acceptable quality light (good color, no strobing, good distribution), in a compatible package, at an affordable price, it was easy to make the switch through just education about the higher price of the bulb paying for itself.
The same thing will happen in other markets.
Another example- recycling. Many (including me) recycled, even when it meant separating things and hauling an inconvenient tub to the road every few weeks. But once the separation technology improved and it could be done centrally, large bins were made available just like regular trash bins. Regular pickup with no silly separating of the items into various sub-bins, and voila! No need for regulations or laws FORCING people to recycle- it just happened naturally. In my neighborhood (which is by no means liberal nor rich) recycling went from perhaps 20% to perhaps 90% in just a few years.
EFI did 90% of that. It was developed for racing.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Amen brother, totally correct. Laws do not create better technology...
This sort of thinking means that anything that you can't understand must be dismissed
Predictions of the distant future are like that. There should be a super high bar for believing them. Because they tend to be wrong.
Anyone who has spent their lives studying something highly complicated is disallowed
No, you go ahead and believe their predictions if you want.
Especially when you don't have the skills to debunk their work.
No need to "debunk" predictions of the future. They either come true or not.
And *especially* when the fate of humanity is at stake.
The only thing less believable than a prediction of the distant future is a dramatic prediction of the distant future.
Let me get this straight... It's a non-binding accord (other than we can't leave until 4 Nov 2019). So nothing changes.
An argument can be made that, if we can't leave the Paris Agreement for four years, that's binding on the US -- and if it's binding on the US, that means it's a treaty, which has to be ratified by the Senate, which it never was. So the provisions of the Paris Agreement, including the conditions on exit, are of no effect.
Pulling out of Paris does NOT mean we have to stop offering small business grants and paying for the NSF, DOE, etc. How can you even equate the two things? I imagine the $3T will be more productive when spent by US citizens (who like clean and safe energies such as solar and wind) than if it were handed to 3rd world dictators and (for some reason) China.
the US, China, and India (the latter two aren't even going to start their work until after 2020 anyway)
Actually, China has gotten very serious about the issue and is on track to be well ahead of its commitments by 2020. In January China announced that it is investing $360B in domestic low- or no-carbon power generation (wind, solar, hydro and nuclear), to be installed by 2020. China has already cut its consumption of coal sharply, and is on track to keep cutting it further. China is also investing heavily (about $1T over the next few years) in green energy production around the world. Much of that money counts as a donation to third world countries under the terms of the Paris Accord, but China is going to end up owning much of the energy infrastructure in Africa and elsewhere, which means it's going to end up with huge influence and economic power in those regions just as they start to modernize... and start buying lots of Chinese-made goods.
China has recognized that not only is Global Warming a problem to be solved, it's also a tremendous opportunity to create an economic empire and obtain concomitant political influence throughout the emerging markets of the world. While the US dithers and disengages, China is going to step up and establish a new Chinese-led world order to replace the one that America created after WWII.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
According to Wikipedia, the US didn't ratify the 1969 Treaty on Treaties. But even if it had, the President and the Senate cannot alter the Constitution even by a treaty and 2/3 vote. Altering the Constitution requires 3/4 of the states. Even a treaty on treaties duly ratified by the Senate, can't give away the Senate's obligation to ratify treaties. The Paris Agreement is a treaty regardless of whether it is called one or not. The words of the Constitution have a particular meaning. And something doesn't stop being what it is just because you label it something else. For example, if the Constitution requires 3/4 of the States for something, you can't just slap the label "State" onto a bunch of kindergartners and give them a cookie for their signature. A kindergartner is not a state. The Paris Agreement IS a treaty. The American people ratified the Constitution based on the plain meaning of the words. They expected the protection that comes from the Constitution denying the president the power to unilaterally enter the US into binding treaties. But even if the treaties on treaties was binding on the US, no country could reasonably claim that the American people were bound by the President's agreement, not after the House of Representatives voted to nullify the President's status as a representative of the American people.
Actually no. It's pretty easy to understand that countries can't be trusted if the treaties made by one of the temporary wearer of the big hats won't be upheld by the next one, especially when they come as quickly as every 4 years, and in this country never lasts more than 8 under any circumstances. Whether you like it or not, it's the duty of the POTUS to uphold our treaties and agreements, even if he personally doesn't like them. If he has the power to voluntarily dismiss them, he has to do it by the means allowed for in the agreement. If he doesn't like that, he can bite off his own dick for all that matters, assuming he can find it.
POTUS does not get to pass treaties for the USA; only Congress can do that. POTUS negotiates them but Congress authorizes them. The Paris Accord was never passed by Congress. It was only negotiated by the former POTUS administration. Therefore the USA is not actually a legal party to the Paris Accord and therefore can completely ignore it. That is, after all, how the Constitution defines the Treatise process for the USA.
Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)