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Former FBI Director Predicts Russian Hackers Will Interfere With More Elections (nytimes.com)
An anonymous reader quotes the New York Times:
James B. Comey, the former director of the F.B.I., testified that the Russians had not only intervened in last year's election, but would try to do it again... Russian hackers did not just breach Democratic email accounts; according to Mr. Comey, they orchestrated a "massive effort" targeting hundreds of -- and possibly more than 1,000 -- American government and private organizations since 2015... As F.B.I. director, he supervised counterintelligence investigations into computer break-ins that harvested emails from the State Department and the White House, and that penetrated deep into the computer systems of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Yet President Barack Obama's administration did not want to publicize those intrusions, choosing to handle them diplomatically -- perhaps because at the time they looked more like classic espionage than an effort to manipulate American politics...
Graham Allison, a longtime Russia scholar at Harvard, said, "Russia's cyberintrusion into the recent presidential election signals the beginning of what is almost sure to be an intensified cyberwar in which both they -- and we -- seek to participate in picking the leaders of an adversary." The difference, he added, is that American elections are generally fair, so "we are much more vulnerable to such manipulation than is Russia," where results are often preordained... Similar warnings have been issued by others in the intelligence community, led by James R. Clapper Jr., who has sounded the alarm since retiring in January as director of national intelligence. "I don't think people have their head around the scope of what the Russians are doing," he said recently.
Daniel Fried, a career diplomat who oversaw sanctions imposed on Russia before retiring this year, told the Times that Comey "was spot-on right that Russia is coming after us, but not just the U.S., but the free world in general. And we need to take this seriously."
Graham Allison, a longtime Russia scholar at Harvard, said, "Russia's cyberintrusion into the recent presidential election signals the beginning of what is almost sure to be an intensified cyberwar in which both they -- and we -- seek to participate in picking the leaders of an adversary." The difference, he added, is that American elections are generally fair, so "we are much more vulnerable to such manipulation than is Russia," where results are often preordained... Similar warnings have been issued by others in the intelligence community, led by James R. Clapper Jr., who has sounded the alarm since retiring in January as director of national intelligence. "I don't think people have their head around the scope of what the Russians are doing," he said recently.
Daniel Fried, a career diplomat who oversaw sanctions imposed on Russia before retiring this year, told the Times that Comey "was spot-on right that Russia is coming after us, but not just the U.S., but the free world in general. And we need to take this seriously."
Of course they will. Did anyone think otherwise?
I guess if you really bought into the "Trump works with Russia" DNC story, then you would expect it to end.
But any rational person would realize that Russia, like the USA, will attempt to interfere in any election where they think they can get away with it and get an advantage.
...and National Security advisors of every other nation predict that that the United States will continue to interfere in their elections.
Hell, Obama intervened in the French election and no one in the MSM batted an eye.
He's a bit salty about being fired, I see.
after all, we are selecting between coca cola and pepsi cola. this needs to change or we are doomed.
If he still had a job he wouldn't be a leaky loser.
Water is Wet, the Sky is Blue, and Maxwell's Laws are Prettier than You.
This is a very serious matter--yet another reason electronic security matters and with major geopolitical implications. But it's also incredibly obvious to anyone who has been paying attention.
Real lawyers write in C++
But Trump says Russia is our friend....
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
before you lecture us, why don't you explain.
The Soviet Union used propaganda and dirty tricks to try to interfere with EVERY US election they existed, and Russia just continues the tradition. They didn't call it fake news back then, it was just journalism with an agenda. Walter Duranty wasn't an accident, ya' know.
The only difference is that instead of stealing letters and publishing them, they're hacking email accounts and publishing them. Still no hacking of voting machines, still no manipulation of vote counts. In other words, still no 'hacking the election'.
SO far they claimed Russia hacked the 2016 election but yet not 1 piece of proof has shown that to be true, only so called "hack" that happened on elections was by the DNC rigging the primaries as well as in states like California letting people vote that don't even hold US citizenship.
These attacks rely on dis-information.
The best way to resist propaganda is to encourage "We the people" to become better informed and to think critically.
Yup. Just like Bush had months of daily warnings of an impending attack but chose to do nothing. Which led to the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history. Then Bush lied to the American people about the need to invade and occupy a foreign country which had nothing to do with the attacks, which led to the deaths of thousands of U.S. soldiers, over 250,000 Iraqi civilians and a $3 trillion+ price tag foisted on the American people.
Very Bush.
I love Tom Clancy books! Red storm rising is great because the useless weather sperg gets laid!
Y'know, I've watched as the left has argued the morality of Russia, in the Korean War (citing civilians killed by the US), in Iranian revolutions (never mentioning the KGB-supported power grab), in the VIetnam War (where they've taught forty years of history dividing the two sides into the good guys who the KGB supported, which conducted purges of the population after the war, and America), the various Central American communist parties, which are paragons of social justice until their economies collapse like Venezuela...
We even enacted a so-called peace deal with Iran where we released large amounts of money to them and the next _month_ suddenly Russia had the funds to bomb rebels in Syria at Iran's behest.
But suddenly, in the year 2016, after all that, it's important that we fight Russia, after giving them all those countries (never mind that they couldn't even hold onto the ones in Eastern Europe besides Belarus) and even giving (via Iran) the money to keep their Air Force afloat in bombs to drop on civilians.
(currently testing something about signatures here)
Wait, so Russians made him send that memo?
So the free world will fall apart if everyone in it knows the truth about their government? I find it interesting how US government justifies spying on their own citizens with "if you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to hide" and yet calls anyone who informs the people they serve with what the government does an enemy of the state. It's not like they hacked the personal sex videos of the Clinton, or some embarrassing comments made off-the-record; what they allegedly exposed were facts that have to do with her profession and potential corruption. I get that exposing those possibly affected the outcome of the election, but shouldn't the voters be entitled to know what the politicians they vote for actually do?
I love how everyone reports this "russian hacking of the election" as if it is some sort of undisputed fact when there has not been one shred of evidence to support it, no motive has established, and there has not been any information on HOW the election was hacked. That last point is particularly disappointing for a site like slashdot where everyone here is supposed to be an expert in tech. Seeing as there are hundreds and hundreds of precincts that all use different systems for collecting and counting votes from 100% paper to 100% electronic in nearly unlimited combinations, how exactly does one "hack" that? Ridiculous.
Repeat the same shit over and over and over again and people will believe it.
Dear Globalist elite, I expect Russia, China, Israel, UK, etc to snoop just like we do. If "interference" is their exposing your crimes, so be it. If you can't do the time (or handle the slime), don't do the crime. I do think all the noise today is to ignore the Seth Rich murder case, to marginalize or overthrow a legitimately elected president, and to avoid accountability for many crimes including treason.
If you are alleging vote frauds, very simple. Liberals, Democrats and Rinos have pushed insecure voting and counting methods for years. I would welcome traceable, simple paper based systems with voter ID.
Given any honest efforts, the Russians don't worry me. But you do.
With the massive surveillance in place, if you can't immediately produce hard evidence, SHUT THE F*** UP and go away!
You imperialist scum will use any excuse to grab power. But this Russia nonsense is really taking the cake. If all it took is proving a candidate wasn't trustworthy then that is that candidate's fault and nobody else's. Don't shoot the messenger, it won't stop the leaks, just get good already. It's better to be honest, you won't have to write everything down.
my cheese on this burger will melt
there will be weather tomorrow
i might do laundry
i will eat at least once
microsoft will continue to spy
the nsa cia and fbi will still have the same 3 letters and do all the same shit
george carlin will be risen from grave to distract more people
some idiot will give star citizen more money
a keyboard will be invented that the letters wont rub off
someone in the usa will blame russia for something so they can keep profiting form the military industrial complex....
and the new pinky and the brain will air every day at 5pm EST
Bush had months of daily warnings of an impending attack but chose to do nothing.
The intelligence provided the president is shared with congressional leaders, and as I recall was not what the intelligence community refers to as 'actionable intelligence' - there was nothing specific to act on.
You want to play the blame game, what about Clinton's siloing of the intelligence bureaus that prevented the field reports of the middle-eastern flight school students that had no interest in learning to take off or land, but only in controlling a plane once airborne from ever being investigated?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/fb...
Ken
got Trump elected.
I don't think generally fair means what I think it does. Although, thinking about it, generally fair can also be interpreted as generally shit.
As usual the media noise machine has managed to deflect everyone from the real issue. Of course the Russians will interfere if they can. This last time around they probably didn't think when they started that it would work out so well but it did. It was a low cost, low risk enterprise probably intended to a) test the weapons and b) trim Hillary's wings rather than win Trump the White House.
Had Comey not done his political stunt with the Weiner's e-mails it wouldn't have flipped the election and I doubt they expected it to. Yet Nate Silver's numbers are pretty clear: Hillary had 6%+ lead until Comey did that and down 3%+ points after, close enough for the EC to do its thing. Had it not been for Comey the election would not have even been close.
As it turned out if Trump can manage it he will end the Russian sanctions which have been crippling to the Russian economy. Hillary would not have. She would have continued Obama policies. That is not a bad payoff for what this cyber op probably cost.
Back to the point at hand is Trump is most likely innocent in the part about the election. What has him worried is that he knows that if they keep digging on the investigation what will come to light is his deep financial dependents on Russian money interests, all of whom are either pals of Putin if not outright operatives of his office.
A month or so ago Trump had one of his lawyers write up a letter that declared that "nobody in Russia owes Trump money." While the Trump supporters view that (as intended) as some sort of vindication/valdiation the reality-based world realizes nobody ever thought he did. What the real problem is that Trump owes Russians (i.e. Putin money big time.)
For the last two decades no American based bank would loan Trump money due to his shady business practices and so the money he has been using comes from either Russia. Or China (a whole new issue.) So I would bet that a lot of Trump businesses are heavily leveraged in Russian debt and possibly in default. In other words Putin probably has the power to ruin Trump -- the U.S. President! -- and family financially with just a phone call.
That is what Trump doesn't want you to know and why he has been so eager to stop any investigation regarding Russia. It will come up eventually and the only real question is how far Trump will hang on and how far the Republicans in the house will go to protect him. Based on what has gone on so far is pretty damn far.
Even if so, then most likely other actors had a far bigger effect on the outcome, namely mass media and mass social networks.
All we hear is 'Russia' since this underbelly old-cold-war enemy is apparently a good distraction. No-one talks about the role of television, newspapers and facebook.
So, to me all this 'Russia hacks' is just a trick from this same mass-media to focus attention on something else than themselves. Which makes me actually more suspicious about their role as `independent` news source.
Comey who Democrat's some how loved after he got fired did same thing many times, intelligence on person looking to commit an attack yet did nothing. Fort hood, Pulse night club, San Bernadine, Boston marathon. All those they had intel on person that committed the attack yet nothing was done.
I think China is a hundred times more of a threat than Russia. Russia grandstands. They want attention. China doesn't want attention. ... Because they're an actual threat. They manipulate information, they manipulate currencies, they have tons of spies and the largest group of hackers on the planet. 27% OF ALL ATTACKS come from China, and as much as 47% can be tracked back to China. This is not a fucking joke. This is the calm before the storm. China has the largest standing military (over a MILLION MORE than the USA). For all the "military-industrial-complex" people harp on the USA (and it's warranted) 99% of the public has no idea how big a threat China is becoming.
And manipulating the election? China does that too in both the US and the UN. Google it.
We've also had tons of ACTUAL state secrets "leaked" and straight up SOLD to China. Not this "war in iraq"/"poor civilians got shot" shit that's just a PR blunder. ACTUAL secrets that represent tens of BILLIONS of dollars and decades of US research that ends up overseas. Like ultra-high resolution modern radar systems. We're paying for it, and they're benefiting from it.
Here's a report from 2017 that China is reaching "near parity with the West's military." That should horrify you. China does not give two shits about your civil liberties or peace among nations. They've been the sole reason North Korea hasn't been bombed into dust. Why? Because it's in their best interests.
http://www.businessinsider.com...
Russia is a freaking distraction. An underdog. China is a resting giant quietly growing a military capable of conquering new territory.
I had an uncle used to bang his hearing aid on a table or other hard surface when it wasn't working right.
Well, yeah... it's tough to admit you were wrong. After scoffing alongside the complicit media at Romney's assertion last election cycle that Russia was more concerning than ISIS, it would take a bigger person than our former president to admit his opponent understood more than he did even after being in the top seat for four years.
I don't think I've ever seen someone argue the morality of any particular country that they didn't live in. It seems like you may be conflating people's desire to avoid war and the involvement of foreign nations in wars.
I also don't think we should be fighting Russia but we should be defending ourselves from all forces that seek to mislead the public, both foreign and domestic.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Obama didn't do nothing, he got the actions documented so that the incoming administration would have justification to go to war. Going to war is what you really want, right? You should spend your pre-teen angst on figuring out the most evil way to retaliate.
Canadian Sage Predicts that America will overthrow move governments.
In other news, Nigeria will continue to pull 419 scams. The thing that people don't understand is that Russian and Chinese hackers, both state sponsored and independent, try to hack/phish everything on the internet.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
that Comey is saying what people already know well, a recent poll shows folks believe him over the predisent (sic) 5 to 1.
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You have no idea how accurate you are, and no one else is admitting it.
Story about the ONLY people that have evidence Russia hacked the 2016 election. Yes, these are the ONLY people that have examined the DNC servers that were hacked, Comey confirmed the FBI nor any other intelligence agency has been allowed to look at them.
The kicker... That company is REFUSING to testify to that evidence. I'm assuming since a special council has been appointed and perjury will be prosecuted now is when they changed their mind. So the government has not a SINGLE PERSON willing to testify with actual evidence of Russian hacking.
Can I repeat that? Not a SINGLE PERSON is willing to testify with evidence of Russian interference in the 2016 election.
Yes, they drug it out for 9 months and not only did they not have evidence of Trump working with Russia, they didn't have evidence of Russia interfering with the election.
What the hell is going on here? Why would anyone listen to Comey? He hasn't seen evidence of Russia hacking the 2016 election, why would he think they would start now?
Some of you seem like you don't even read the news you comment on. Obama expelled 35 Russian diplomats when he found out, closed the embassies they were housed in and accused them of using the premises the conduct espionage.
See the email leak smear attempt just two days before the French presidential election for a more recent example.
Nutsign detected: vague non-specific claims with "Google it" instead of providing links to corroborating evidence.
Russia is after its old glory and aims to destroy the rest of the world to get it. There is no ambiguity, there is no hesitance. Putin is evil and must be removed. Russia must be reformed again, and it may require that Putin is assassinated first. He is poised to invade the Baltic with paratroopers, and NATO can't defend anything at its current readiness. War is inevitable, and taking initiative is the primary concern.
Don't try to hide the only strategic analysis of revealed Russian aggression. They must be fought directly and quickly or the losses will be even greater.
Same AC here. I'd really like to know why this comment was modded down, especially when I posted it in good faith. It's very frustrating to try to post a thoughtful comment, only to come back and see it at -1 for no apparent reason. Shame on whoever modded this down. Metamoderation is a failure at removing bad moderators and it's a shame.
Russia's strategy in meddling with elections in other countries has included inviting xenophobia and supporting leaders who support isolation. Countries like the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan, much of the EU, and many others, have generally been strong supporters of freedom, democracy, and human rights. Together, they are powerful to defend those values. Russia's election meddling has been done to divide and weaken the relationships between these countries. Russia is hardly democratic or free. They have a terrible human rights record. The best way to push back against Russia is to strengthen the relationships between free and democratic countries. Russia has meddled in elections both in the US and other countries, and they will continue to do so. The UK leaving the EU certainly weakens both the UK and EU. Russia loves that. The US threatening to withdraw from multinational agreements weakens the US and other countries aligned in organizations like NATO. Russia loves that. That's why more extensive cooperation is needed, to push back against Russia.
Well, if we don't want the Russians to interfere with "elections", then maybe we should stop having them!
Let's drop this notion that the men who win pluralities of votes are somehow representative of the will of the residents within any given precinct (however fairly or unfairly the borders of the precinct were drawn). They mostly are not (Chances are quite good that even your representative does regularly do things and take positions which you'd fire him for if you were his only constituent). Presidents even less so.
Appoint or endorse a man which you substantially agree with on political matters. If that politician has a substantial level of support, then he gets to go to Washington to govern and argue and vote on behalf of those constituents which actually endorse him (rather than the minority groups and corporate interests which those under the prevailing system rely upon to swing elections - problems which, incidentally, are far more destructive than any kingmaking which can be accomplished by hacking the computers).
Oh, victim-blaming democracy, are we? The next time some fecal matter starts blockading your precious few axons--you know, those moments when you feel the inclination to type something in the defense of the incumbent fatass vatnik retard--how about you just the shut the fuck up and read a book instead, you witless inbred chucklefuck? Haha!
Because that's about how civil your comment comes across from the libtard, er, excuse me, the "reality with supported claims and evidence" side of the fence.
I have to say, I used to be all for civil liberties; but now that I'm told that these devious Russians are trying to influence our elections, well then obviously what we need is strict controls in place to shutdown all that FAKE NEWS and ensure that our news sources publish only Real News! Why isn't anybody talking about this!!!!!
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Republicans who were communicating with Russians who were being monitored had their conversations picked up. There was no "active wire tapping and spying on a republic candidate for president". None. Zero. Claiming that is like getting busted at a sweep of a whorehouse and then whining that "they" are out to get you.
Who interfered with the 2016 Presidential Election? Jimmy Comey!
Who lied to Congress about "Unmasking"? Jimmy Comey!
Who lied to Congress about the DNC "hacking"? Jimmy Comey!
The DNC hack was an Inside Job by the hired IT crew who were and still are illegal migrants, although now that safe back inside Pakistan.
Who lied to Congress regarding the "Leak"? Jimmy Comey! Likely Comey is the source who leaked and payed for the "Trump Dossier"!
Pound for pound Commie is the Biggest Liar! Certified Fresh!
The thing is - China isn't going to invade America. They will fuck with Asia.
And the rest of the world that is so mad at America ? They can go get fucked. Good luck. Deal with that tiger on your own.
Believing the consolidation of power in a central bureaucracy is a good thing is adolescent thinking. Most people come to realise as adults (if they keep their eyes and ears open and read a little history) that centralisation is the great evil - it always creates insular and corrupt mandarin classes who slowly but surely make everything worse for the populace and better for themselves (growing sense of entitlement) no matter how idealistically they may have started out. Eg: Roman Empire, Early Catholic Church, USA, EU, UN, China, USSR.....
Large numbers of countries with 5-20 million is the way to go - ensures that people are represented, and that you generally get ethical politicians who genuinely want to improve things (not just high functioning sociopaths who want to feather their own nests). Least corrupt and threatening countries in the world with highest standards of living are relatively small western countries.
But I like all the Russian shit posting propaganda, now when someone says something I disagree with I can just to myself 'oh you silly Russian, real Americans like myself don't think that way'... Hey don't knock it, without this crutch I would have lost all faith in humanity months ago!
I like the Russian method of regime change more than the American way. I think the population of most of the countries that the US bombed agrees with me.
In Soviet Russia, government chooses YOU!!!
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I don't think I've ever seen someone argue the morality of any particular country that they didn't live in...
Ever heard of "Hanoi Jane?"
Troll
Obama also said "there is no serious person out there who would suggest that you could even rig America's elections." That proves he wasn't real Democrat, and he is now part of the swamp. He was so promising, but he quickly became a slave to money.
I've always wondered, if the Iraqi people had the choice to go back in time and keep Saddam and his progeny instead of what they have now, would they? At the time they seemed very happy when he was removed.
Same AC here. I'd really like to know why this comment was modded down, especially when I posted it in good faith.
LOL. OK, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the reason you were modded down is because this Roddenberry-esque federation of nations you're calling for already exists. It's called The UN, and it's a complete clusterfuck.
This. Obama is a DINO so this is the fault of the Republicans by definition.
it's almost as if times can change, or that hindsight is 20/20. See, this is the trouble with the Right. Zero ability to adapt to change. If Russia was an Ally yesterday they're always gonna be an ally, right? Oh, and no shades of grey. Russia's either balls to the walls evil and needs to be exterminated or our ardent friend.
As for Iran, they were well on their way to modernizing before we put a bunch of religious nuts in power. There's pictures of girls in Iran wearing the sorts of skirts that wouldn't have been out of place in 1960s America before we screwed with 'em. And don't get me started on the shit we do and did in South America so Code can sell cheap sugar water.
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Exactly. The republicans did this.
I like this site and I really liked it when the byline used to be "News for nerds Stuff that matter". Is there an extension or bookmarklet or something that I can use to filter out stories based on keywords? Keywords like Comey, Trump, Government, Clinton, Democrat, Republican, Brexit, and on and on? I sure would like that. I really would.
The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
re-read the GP post.... you are in violent agreement....
Listen to all the blamers and excusers. This is cyberwar. This is the fight you were meant to fight. You would think all the patriotic AMERICAN geeks would be the voices of reason. But no. You all fight EACH OTHER! This is the next frontier of warfare. I don't think the German or French geek communities are going to let it go. In fact the French were warned by what happened in the US elections and fought back effectively. Don't be Putin's pawn. Smack him down and teach him not to fuck with sovereign countries.
The biggest threat in the world is actually USA, they are the only country that has troops all over the world.
Speaking as a New Zealander, I'd rather Russia were in charge instead of 'Murica.
Russians were actively trying to get Hillary elected. The last thing they would want would be for America to be made great again.
I thought we were still blaming the Russians... or didn't they do this?
There was no election hacking. There was no intervention. There was no tampering with voting machines. There was no direct influence. There is not a single shred of evidence that Russia had back-door access to change our vote tally.
Russia did what France and England and the rest of Europe have been doing since 1787, and that is to try to influence public opinion in the US so that we would elect governments that would enact policy favorable to them.
This is nothing new at all. It has been going on since the moment we formed our nation. It is only a big deal now because someone outside the establishment won, and the media and the elite are butt-hurt about it.
Obama obviously supports Trump since he did nothing to stop him from. Economy our ruler.
I take everything that J Edgar Comey says with a grain of salt. Leaker!
Look at you here making up your own history.
The Left had a problem with US actions during the revolutions in Iran because we overthrew a democraticaly elected government and installed a dictator. When the Iranians found out they went apeshit which is how we got the modern day Iran and all of the problems that come with it.
The Left has had a problem with the vietnam war because of lives lossed and the fact that both the French and Americans knew that the communists would win any election that was put forward so not only were our actions antidemocratic they were doomed to failure.
Finally, the American Left has never been a fan of the South American nations you mention in any real mainstream way. ("Oh but Bernie said something nice about Venezuela once!" Shutup)
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
... always face forward.
There's no news value here.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Obama was correct. They can't be rigged, but Putin rigged them.
You could tell from his body language that he knew he was lying when he said that. Russia destroyed our elections.
You may be right.
https://www.independent.co.uk/...
http://fortune.com/2017/04/12/...
You are welcome on my lawn.
Cue the Russian troll army and their usual AC posts, supported by the usual dumbfuck Trumpflake traitors.
My God, this is getting more tedious than the McCarthy hearings.
I'm still waiting for someone who has the guts to ask the Democrats "Have you no shame!!"
Unfortunately the answer to that question in this case is yes, the Democrats have no shame...
Some good news about China stealing the information because if they have taken the plans for the F-35 their fighter program will be set back by decades!
Yes, but why? He knew he couldn't stop our election from being hacked.
Jesus, who keeps modding this guy up?
/. that they noticed an increase in pro-Russia/Putin/Russian agenda type posts over the past couple of years. My first thought was, "That's a cute conspiracy theory." But now I'm seriously wondering if it's true.
The other day, someone posted on
There should be no fuzz on this whatsoever, Mr. Comey said. The Russians interfered in our election during the 2016 cycle. They did it with purpose. They did it with sophistication. They did it with overwhelming technical efforts. And it was an active-measures campaign driven from the top of that government. There is no fuzz on that.
I call bullshit. How? Give an example of how the Russians 'interfered' in any real demonstrable way with the last US election. They changed the votes? If so how? I guess they could try to buy votes or even more effectively perhaps bribe the electors whose votes actually matter. Of course if our electors are buyable we really only have ourselves to blame for being so easily corruptible and by having a system that is so easy to influence with money. But is there any evidence the Russians or anyone actually did this? I'd like to see the evidence rather than vague and essentially meaningless anti-Russian propaganda. If they want to hack insecure email systems I say good for them. It has no direct connection to US elections and I am totally cool with it. Improve the security of email rather than whining about it like little bitches. Also for those of you who want to go back to the Cold War just because you don't like the current president, fuck you. Stop picking fights with the Russkies. If you want to saber rattle at them it had better be for a damned good reason and email hacking does not qualify. How the fuck has the American Democratic party become war mongers?
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
I've always wondered, if the Iraqi people had the choice to go back in time and keep Saddam and his progeny instead of what they have now, would they? At the time they seemed very happy when he was removed.
If they had such an option they would probably want to return to a point in time to prevent Bremer from disbanding the Iraqi army and delaying Iraqi's from taking control of the government. These two decisions by Bremer, a career diplomat who served numerous administrations, essentially started the insurgency and created an opportunity for al-Queda in Iraq.
The generals and the White House had originally planned on using the Iraqi army to maintain security and law and order; and getting elections going as soon as possible to create a new constitution and government.
The problem with Iraq wasn't really the invasion, it was the occupation that followed.
Considering how long it took to figure out who the Boston bombers were they obviously weren't top on the list. I'd guess there are thousands of suspects on watch list. If they were to arrest all of these people now the public would be up in arms. They can't monitor them 24/7 either, there isn't the manpower and the courts won't stomach endless warrants. What's your solution??
The fact Obama let Trump be sworn in makes me hate him forever.
Maybe if the US didn't have to make things so overly complicated on voting day by having electronic voting booths then you wouldn't have to worry about hacking. Hand the voter a couple of ballots, one for each thing they are voting for, and they put an X on each one. It's simple and it works. Secure and easy to (re)count.
But then there's this fascination of voting for so many positions. Like clerks. Why do you need to vote for clerks? They are part of the civil service. And some states elect judges. WTF? There's nothing to run on to be a judge. You apply the law without prejudice. At least you are supposed to. (Something else I don't understand about the US as you have judges that bring their own interpretation based on their beliefs.).
Cut down on the number of elected positions and you have a couple of ballots for people to mark which means they can use paper like many places in the world where it works quite well.
Don't try to hide the only strategic analysis of revealed Russian aggression. They must be fought directly and quickly or the losses will be even greater.
I see. So you want to go to war with Russia? Would that be a land war? That worked out so well for Hitler and his minions. I'll tell you what. How about YOU go to war with them. Go over there. Bring a gun. Declare war against them. Let us know how it works out for you, chicken hawk war monger. I have no problem with the Russians. I like them. I don't want to fight them.
I guess the problem with the new Millennium and Globalism or whatever you call it is the lack of villains. We don't have anyone to fight against. No real villains. I mean yeah we have North Korea I guess. Kim Jong-Un is a kind of Clown-Villain and he might be worth going to war with, but aside from the powder keg in the middle east I can't really think of anyone else at the moment. So if you have such an itchy trigger finger and are target seeking maybe try aiming your weapon at a real villain rather than an imaginary one.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Bush had months of daily warnings of an impending attack but chose to do nothing.
The intelligence provided the president is shared with congressional leaders, and as I recall was not what the intelligence community refers to as 'actionable intelligence'
From what I recall McConnel threatened to basically rebuke obama. link That still seems odd and Obama should have spoken more forcefully.
The main problem is garbage in garbage out. CItizens are poorly informed at the best of times, let alone when they are fed raw sewage thanks to the alt right and all the fake crap. For the good of our country, it would be best that if politicians stood together and defended it. The other options are attacking back with cyber weapons to expose truth, or just blindly hoping a more active press and more informed citizenry will protect us. That seems a poor strategy.
The Russians have been interfering for decades, hell in Europe the Green parties received huge amounts of funding from the Soviets back in the day. In the 90s the Chinese were working hard to funnel money secretly to the Clinton campaign.
And despite all the interference all the US intelligence agencies agree. There is no evidence that votes were tampered with; nor the outcomes of the election changed.
And even from Hillary, there is no dispute that the damaging emails were fake, merely that they were stolen.
The job of an Intelligence Agency is to gather the data, process it to gain intelligence, and present it to those who need to know. When you gather too much you bury the agencies so they can't process it to generate useful intelligence. America is spending too much effort on spying (data) and not enough on intelligence gathering. You have all the pieces but can't do anything with it.
Nutsign detected: vague non-specific claims with "Google it" instead of providing links to corroborating evidence.
No. Some of us are old enough to remember and its only the "kiddies" who need to Google things. Some of the top links for Clinton and Chinese donations.
... According to congressional investigators, Ng laundered the illegal campaign donations through a close Clinton associate in Arkansas named Charlie Trie during the 1996 election."
"The 1996 United States campaign finance controversy was an alleged effort by the People's Republic of China to influence domestic American politics prior to and during the Clinton administration and also involved the fund-raising practices of the administration itself.
While questions regarding the U.S. Democratic Party's fund-raising activities first arose over a Los Angeles Times article published on September 21, 1996, China's alleged role in the affair first gained public attention when Bob Woodward and Brian Duffy of The Washington Post published a story stating that a United States Department of Justice investigation into the fund-raising activities had uncovered evidence that agents of China sought to direct contributions from foreign sources to the Democratic National Committee (DNC) before the 1996 presidential campaign. The journalists wrote that intelligence information had shown the Chinese embassy in Washington, D.C. was used for coordinating contributions to the DNC in violation of United States law forbidding non-American citizens or non-permanent residents from giving monetary donations to United States politicians and political parties. A Republican investigator of the controversy stated the Chinese plan targeted both presidential and congressional United States elections, while Democratic Senators said the evidence showed the Chinese targeted only congressional elections. The government of the People's Republic of China denied all accusations."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
"Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe invited the Chinese businessman whose donations to him have been named as a focus of Justice Department investigators to a 2013 fundraiser at Hillary Clinton's personal Washington, D.C., residence. Wang Wenliang, a Chinese national with U.S. permanent residency, briefly shook Clinton’s hand at the Sept. 30 event, a representative for Wang told TIME. An American company controlled by Wang made a $60,000 contribution to McAuliffe’s campaign three weeks before the fundraiser. Less than a month later, a separate Wang company pledged $500,000 to the Clinton Foundation, the first of several donations that eventually totaled $2 million."
http://time.com/4348675/terry-...
"Ng, a Macau businessman with ties to the Chinese government, was accused of funneling over $1 million in illegal foreign donations to support Bill Clinton's reelection campaign in 1996. "Ng, a Macau businessman with ties to the Chinese government, was accused of funneling over $1 million in illegal foreign donations to support Bill Clinton's reelection campaign in 1996
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...
The point seems more that the current president Donald J Trump only came to power with the assistance of foreign powers that have no regard for the actual wishes of the people of America, and indeed, seek to harm the nation. That's the takeaway - that his recent actions in attempting to stifle the probe into the relationship between members of his campaign team and the Russians is symptomatic that they, or he personally, put ambition ahead of the nation, and there is a strong potential that he (or they) should be impeached, indicted, and then spend time in federal prison.
Countries like the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan, much of the EU, and many others, have generally been strong supporters of freedom, democracy, and human rights. Together, they are powerful to defend those values.
Wait, what? When? In this century? That hasn't been true for a long time.
There is no reason to 'push back' against Russia. Whatever they did there is no evidence and even if they really did say buy some electoral votes or something you know what? It doesn't matter. Use that knowledge to improve the system so it isn't so vulnerable to corrupt electors. Although the electoral system does seem inherently vulnerable to bribery it has always been that way. Maybe it's time to dump it, but our insecure outdated election system is no reason to go to war with Russia, something that is always a bad idea. This isn't even worth saber rattling about. It's nothing. Not a big deal. Even if it's true and so far there is zero evidence that it is. At best some Russian hackers hacked some emails and set some information free. If certain people were not tech illiterate their emails would have been strongly encrypted and not stored for any length of time, especially not in an insecure location. But I'm happy with email leaks because it gets the information out there. I'd be just as happy to see Trump's emails. The more information the world has about our leaders the better.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
There is no reason to think his replacement would be better. The US Government has a long history of overthrowing other countries governments, and it never turns out better. Ex. Iran led to islamic extremists ruling Iran, Iraq led to ISIS.
The relentless pursuit to prove there was a connection with Russia is creating far more damage than the Russians (allegedly) managed to do. Hard to imagine Russians getting a better return for their efforts.
That, in fact, is "classic espionage".
Anybody who claims to be surprised that Russia is trying to spread propaganda or obtain secrets on US government officials obviously has been so out of touch with reality that they have no business being in government. Ditto for any US government official whose computer security is so weak that Russian espionage attempts are successful.
One of the problems I see is how local and state governments want to do elections on the cheap and save a few bucks with the election process. That is also why they buy machines from the lowest bidder, don't care about securing the voting machines (like the infamous Dibold crap), and don't bother verifying a voting trail to make sure the elections are secure. Heck, a chain of custody for the votes themselves is often hard to prove from the voter to the final voting total as well.
In other words, a whole lot of room is there ripe for fraud even without Russia getting into the act.
As much as at first I didn't like the idea, I'm really warming up to public funding of elections too. While not perfect, such public funding where candidates have the chance to present their platforms mostly free of financial campaign raising is also a good way to get rid of foreign influence too, as well as to debate ideas and not simply let the wealthiest candidate win. While a Russian diplomat can presumably bribe a member of Congress or a presidential candidate with a few million dollars, public funding would move that into a flagrant bribe and not merely something that can be whitewashed with being a campaign contribution through 3rd parties (since foreign governments aren't permitted legally to finance political campaigns... not that stops it from happening though).
China is only a scary boogieman if you ignore all of the serious internal issues they have. They're undergoing a socioeconomic change the pace and scale of of which the world has never seen before. That can't continue if they need to divert resources to a war. It's not clear if it can continue anyway, given the serious raw material and energy shortages they have.
A million plus man army is indeed staggering, but china has 1.3 billion people that are increasingly exposed to and embracing the standards of living in the west. Hundreds of thousands, now perhaps millions of young people educated in the west, and who saw the freedom the west has. While I don't discount that China has stolen vast amounts of tech from the west, and is using this to make dramatic leaps forward, their current struggle is to take care of themselves. More and more goods are not being shipped to the west, and are instead kept for their own populace.
The major issue is this rapid pace is slowing down, and a half billion Chinese still live in abject poverty. Large swathes of China still aren't electrified. China's rapid growth is not impacting half of the country, and that's causing a lot of unrest. As China's manufacturing growth slows and exports continue to drop off, that's going to really impact their economy. None of this is conducive to them being a world military power. Regional? Sure. But definitely not one that's going to go out and conquest. That's just a fever dream.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
You're right, the Republicans 'hacked' the election and cost Hillary the Presidency - when will the Democrats start their investigation into those pesky Republicans and their 'better than thou' candidate that WASN'T under an FBI investigation?!?!
Ken
Put another way, Russia should be one of the most least important countries in the world to the US and the EU
It's GDP is lower than both Australia and Italy, and is the smallest of all the BRIC nations
But Russia exerts its influence like it is a larger country and still a super-power - Western nations shouldn't bother with putting up with any BS from such a nation, just ramp up sanctions until they comply, and isolate the country completely if needed
Russia is not particularly valuable as either an ally or a trading partner, there are many more countries significantly more significant
The NY Times has gone downhill. Nowadays, whenever I see a link to them I think to myself, "What are they trying to get me to believe now?" This is not limited to the Donald Trump / Russia stuff though that's been their main beat since the inauguration.
For example:
Prozac Nation Is Now the United States of Xanax. Basically a drug ad for Xanax. The 90s were about Prozac! The 21st century is about Xanax!! Everybody go pop them pills!
I could find more, but it's pretty obvious that it's a PR rag for a very narrow agenda to anyone who's paying attention. Their modus operandi is to pick a narrative and publish lots of stories that reinforce their narrative by taking any little bit of information, anonymous sources, overheard gossip, basically whatever confirms it and repeat it over and over to a national audience.
You're right, George W. Bush started Project Echelon in the mid-sixties... oddly, I'm not sure why he did that when LBJ was President?
Ken
...it was fun while it lasted.
I guess what this really means is the DNC will continue to take ethically bankrupt actions that they document by email which are then leaked by Russian hackers?
Maybe the DNC and Democrats in general should simply cease doing so many illegal and unethical things that are so damning when exposed?
Nah. Like Spice, the Graft must flow!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Nice deflection. No need to invesitage because you're crap at history.
Plus commenting on it during an election would tilt the scales, likely toward Republicans crying foul and how dare he interfere. Or Obama never imagined that Trump would become the prime candidate and was going to wait until after the election to get the investigation going.
I think China is a hundred times more of a threat than Russia. Russia grandstands. They want attention. China doesn't want attention. ... Because they're an actual threat. They manipulate information, they manipulate currencies, they have tons of spies and the largest group of hackers on the planet. 27% OF ALL ATTACKS come from China, and as much as 47% can be tracked back to China. This is not a fucking joke. This is the calm before the storm. China has the largest standing military (over a MILLION MORE than the USA). For all the "military-industrial-complex" people harp on the USA (and it's warranted) 99% of the public has no idea how big a threat China is becoming.
And manipulating the election? China does that too in both the US and the UN. Google it.
We've also had tons of ACTUAL state secrets "leaked" and straight up SOLD to China. Not this "war in iraq"/"poor civilians got shot" shit that's just a PR blunder. ACTUAL secrets that represent tens of BILLIONS of dollars and decades of US research that ends up overseas. Like ultra-high resolution modern radar systems. We're paying for it, and they're benefiting from it.
Here's a report from 2017 that China is reaching "near parity with the West's military." That should horrify you. China does not give two shits about your civil liberties or peace among nations. They've been the sole reason North Korea hasn't been bombed into dust. Why? Because it's in their best interests.
http://www.businessinsider.com...
Russia is a freaking distraction. An underdog. China is a resting giant quietly growing a military capable of conquering new territory.
You're smart enough to see what's right in front of you, but not wise enough to keep your mouth shut. A rocky road lies ahead...
Everything China is doing, Russia tried to do. Russia never managed to build the factories required to rule the information age. China got smart and got other countries to build the factories for them. Little surprise that technology was copied by the Chinese military.
You mean their war-mongering, political manipulation and economic terrorism will be worse than the USA's identical behaviour. Possibly, since the USA also worked to be a good example of governance and capitalism during the 20th century. This century, the dogs called China, USA, Russia and even India are unleashed. No-one wants to be a force for peace.
Why; because they're willing to disrupt the global hegemony benefiting Western nations? I can't imagine the effect that will have on the 'peace' enjoyed by Western nations, however the disruption has begun.
Have a look at Syria: It's not like Korea, Vietnam, Taliban Afghanistan, Russian Afghanistan, Iraq; where one country had to fight several armies, including the world's richest. In Syria, ISIS, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Russia, USA (and allies) are all fighting different sides of the one war. It took much less chaos to start two global conflicts.
What should be horrifying Western nations is the possibility of that war spreading. The refugee problem it created has seen a religious war expand in Africa and be adopted by the settled enclaves of immigrants in Europe. But we call the warring acts of 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants, terrorism. Western nations make the mistake of not identifying the religious solidarity causing that terrorism and not responding to the home-grown nature of terrorism. Well, they are responding with cyber-surveillance and push-button policing but it isn't working against low-tech terrorism. Something needs to change.
Russia under Putin as a bad actor all right, but what I don't get is how can they really be a threat to the West, or at least a semi-unified West. The Russian economy is flat on its back; the country's population is decreasing. The latest statistic I saw is that Russia's economy is half the size of California's. It wouldn't take much of out the big Western economies (Europe, USA, Japan) to support a conventional military force which Russia couldn't match. Everything they touch turns to trash. Why not just build a big conventional force to deter their opportunism and just sit back and let them decline into irrelevance? After a while their allies (and maybe their populace) will tire of continually falling behind in every measure of living standards.
Y'know, I've watched as the left has argued the morality of Russia, in the Korean War (citing civilians killed by the US), in Iranian revolutions (never mentioning the KGB-supported power grab), in the VIetnam War (where they've taught forty years of history dividing the two sides into the good guys who the KGB supported, which conducted purges of the population after the war, and America), the various Central American communist parties, which are paragons of social justice until their economies collapse like Venezuela...
Y'know what I watched? The morality of the right, as they supported brutal dictators in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, South Vietnam, South Korea, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and even South Africa. Oh, and Argentina and Chile. Oh yes, I remember the economic collapse that happened there, even as the vaunted Friedman economic plan was enacted. I remember the spiraling debts of the 1980s. And then I remember the Gulf War. And the occupation of Iraq and Afghanist in the War on Terror.
Oh, and I watched the machinations of Joe McCarthy too. I remember the Hollywood black list as they hunted evil commies everywhere.
About the only good thing that came from the Cold War was that the US could no longer ignore its segregation problem so easily. And even that was minimalist, as the Conservative old-guard was quickly subsumed by the Republican party.
We even enacted a so-called peace deal with Iran where we released large amounts of money to them and the next _month_ suddenly Russia had the funds to bomb rebels in Syria at Iran's behest.
I'm pretty sure I've heard the right complain that the rebels in Syria were really ISIS, and that we should support Assad.
They were actually quite upset that Obama let a whole bunch of their pet dictators in the Mid-east get toppled.
But suddenly, in the year 2016, after all that, it's important that we fight Russia, after giving them all those countries (never mind that they couldn't even hold onto the ones in Eastern Europe besides Belarus) and even giving (via Iran) the money to keep their Air Force afloat in bombs to drop on civilians.
Oh please, the only people who want to fight Russia are the folks who remember the days of the Cold War as their personal money tree.
They're quite avaricious.
The actual opposition just wants us to stop letting a dictator influence things.
Here you go: The Agency
So if no banks will loan Trump money, why would Russia or China take those loans? Surely they know its bad business.
Money laundering. Russia is a kleptocracy, all of those oligarchs need a way to get their money out of the country so they can spend it on stuff you can't buy in Russia. But the west has a range of anti-money laundering mechanisms that, while imperfect, are still a major obstacle. Turns out real-estate is so loosey-goosey that its a pretty good way to launder money.
There has been a ton of reporting on his association with money laundering. But it gets lost in the metric fuckton of other scandal and corruption stories. Here are just a couple of reports, from before and after the election:
FinCEN Fines Trump Taj Mahal Casino Resort $10 Million for Significant and Long Standing Anti-Money Laundering Violations
Dirty money: Trump and the Kazakh connection
— FT probe finds evidence a Trump venture has links to alleged laundering network
Donald Trump’s Worst Deal
— The President helped build a hotel in Azerbaijan that appears to be a corrupt operation engineered by oligarchs tied to Iran’s Revolutionary Guard.
US election: Trump’s Russian riddle
— The Republican nominee became the face of Bayrock, a developer with roots in the Soviet Union
Mass interception of international telegrams was going on long before the sixties. Project SHAMROCK began in 1945. The second world war and the espionage going on during it fundamentally changed the relationship of the state to the citizen. That horse left the barn during your parents' or grandparents' lives, and privacy in communication is not coming back unless everyone embraces strong crypto without backdoors, exactly what Comey as US FBI director and May as the UK prime minister have opposed.
It's a simple choice really.
Either open source the E-voting systems so exploits and generally bad things can be found, fixed and secured . . .
or
Go with the Russia* solution and revert back to old school methods by dropping E-Voting completely.
*Recall the story where they quit utilizing computers and switched back to typewriters for sensitive documents when spying revelations became apparent.
Paper methods are a PITA for sure, but also impossible to manipulate with a simple keystroke.
Astroturfing has definitely been a thing here with some obvious MS funded posts and some political stuff from obvious clueless interns or campaign workers so it's possible this site may have been one of many targeted by a different bunch of "social media workers".
It's not an expensive thing to do after all.
I don't think I've ever seen someone argue the morality of any particular country that they didn't live in.
Truly.
You can read dozens of posts on just that in this thread right now.
The way your posts have been steadily degrading, denying simple facts like "people judge countries they don't live in", my thoughts genuinely turn to early onset Alzheimer's and wonder what your age is.
While you have a point about China there is a great deal more to worry about with Russia since it's happening more in a military sphere than an economic one.
Also that's the second link to "Business Insider" I've seen here today as if it's a credible source on something other than it's core topic - if even that. Did Idiocracy happen over the weekend or something and I didn't notice? National Enquirer links next?
Maybe if you read something else you'll get a clue as to why people are seeing Russia as threat - especially pay attention to what Putin has been saying about the USA since the 1990s.
Still no proof that Russa hacked the election, they only did what the STUPID media should be doing, letting the public know what politicians have done.
People support wikileaks, people support Winner who leak classified information, but concerned when Russa do the same thing? After all we have learned of Hillary, we should all be happy Trump won, who knows how much more damage Hillary would have caused after 8 years of Obama doing damage.
In addition, the anti-Obama posts are a related form of propaganda. First, they imply that whatever Trump is doing is OK because Obama was worse. Besides being factually incorrect (i.e. lying) it is nonsensical because two wrongs do not make a right. Imagine a presidential campaign run the on the slogan "Not as terrible as the last time". That would not get anyone elected, so why is it being brought up now?
Attacks on Obama by Trump trolls are also disinformation intended to undermine people's belief in the integrity of the political process. It's another classic propaganda technique that the Russians like to use. Not that they are the only ones who do this, but it is a favorite, just like their use of poison as an assignation technique.
Are there individuals on the internet who are doing this deliberately on behalf of the Russian government. The answer is absolutely yes. Intelligence sources have said so on multiple occasions. Additionally there is a vast amount of home grown propaganda generated by the US right wing. Fox "News" presents slightly less crazy distortions of reality, but online and radio media outlets spew deranged concepts that are a full on propaganda storm. They are now doing a lot of the heavy lifting for Russians without any overt cooperation.
The short version: the US right is a threat to democracy and Putin and his crew are very happy about it.
Why is Snark Required?
That's a mighty fine strawman you've built there stranger.
How about we saddle up and search for the Jackolope that looks like it.
The left hates Russia solely because Russia hates radical islam. It says a lot about the current state of the ideology of the American left.
Russian interference in the affairs of a sovereign nation? Really? Let's compare that to the king of manipulators- the USA. Ask any insider in Latin America, Africa, Asia, the Middle East or Germany or Russia ... The USA is there, with the carrot and the stick, arranging weapons contracts, CIA connections, generous bribes, commercial alliances, and assuring that the 'right' people win elections. Maybe the US has achieved a level of subtlety and control over the press that makes these activities seem less significant, but you can bet that they are well supported with our tax dollars.
...omphaloskepsis often...
I think your post has reached peak partisan stupidity.
This is all just fallout from Trump doing anything he could to win an election and Putin taking advantage of the chaos. Discussing the issue improves the situation and does not "damage" anything other than deservedly damage the election prospects of a few people in a few years time.
Did your earlier discussion of Hillary's email server create damage? No? Then why should this? Why one rule for your party and another for everyone outside it? Do you really want to push that Russian sort of approach?
They were unmasked for political reasons. Not for legal or national security.
then why do I have to believe that Comey himself is not a russian installation?
Should a minority figure step out of line by even so much as a toe, then lethal force is "unavoidable, legal and proper". Should a foreign adversary commit crimes that benefit the Right, then suddenly they are forces of Truth, Justice and The American Way!!
It's truly funny how those on the Right proclaim how interested, engaged and involved in the "crimes" committed by the DNC. Oh my, how you long for a world where the DNC is a straight-up, right flying and clean as a whistle organization! Left unsaid is the implication that the RNC is such an organization. You really just want a fair fight according to Robert's Rules of Order, or possibly the Queensberry Rules, right?
My, how courtly you are! You are so courtly your eyes are brown.
> At the time they seemed very happy when he was removed.
Some of them were (specifically the Shia's). That's not the same as saying "they", the Iraqi population, was "very happy" he was "removed". All of these terms come with important qualifiers. Due to authoritarian intolerance of dissent via mass and secret killings, of course there were a number of cheerful civilians at the prospect of vindication. There was a legitimate insurgency that existed prior to the invasion, prompting the warcrimes Saddam was convicted of.
China has done some of the same things, but the US doesn't have overwhelming advantages (relative military power and regional support, etc) and no particular resources that would be worth a military exchange...until we have naval skirmishes to try to prevent them from creating forward island bases. Would it matter if we got videos of people dancing in the streets when a communist government falls anywhere? It's never that simple.
You're probably a Leftist loon, New Zealand has its fill of them.
You should keep in mind that the grass is always greener over the septic tank.
Yeah. Reddit got funky maybe three or four years ago, but Slashdot too? The weirdly politicized postings that are getting boosted up and then swatted down have been making me raise my eyebrows more and more since US election. Any time you see a post mentioning a letter agency in the US, you'll see the usual suspects make "insightful" comments about how they ought to be dismantled, or raving whatever stupidity of no benefit to anybody in the West. They come out for those threads in droves.
Bill cheated on his wife and lied about it. He faced impeachment. Trump is playing Patsy fir a hostile nation, tried to obstruct an FBI investigation to protect his cronies and is changing the rules to let foreign nationals directly but favors. Will the Republicans impeach him as well or does he get special favors because he inspired the neonazis to vote?
There is no corelation hacker with Russia. What is the benefit for Russia anyway?
If the left hates Russia, it may well be because the country is run by a bunch of ruthless amoral kleptocrats who keep the population ignorant and dependent.
In their own sick way, the Ruskies are doing us a favor. The clearer it becomes to everyone that elections are very high value cyber warfare targets, the more likely it is (hopefully) that people of all stripes will resoundingly reject electronic voting machines and internet voting schemes, which they might otherwise tend to favor for convenience and efficiency.
Computer scientists have been warning against e-voting for a decade or two. Voting happens every 2-4 years. It doesn't have to be efficient, or maximally convenient (though we should extend it over the weekend to broaden the franchise). As long as the internet is a cesspool of unaccountable ajurisdictional crime (that's going to have to be tackled pretty soon, but there's a whole other rant), voting should be airgapped, low tech, and paper-trailed. Won't stop idiots from getting their 'news' from facebook, and it won't stop the dead from voting in Chicago, but at least hackers won't be able to move millions of votes with a piece of malware.
And don't kid yourself. Russians are just the tip of the iceberg, once this gets going; the political parties will have hacking divisions when it becomes possible to swing elections this way, just like they PACs and redistricting committees. It'll become just another tool in the bag.
Comey has NO credibility left. He leaked information for his own benefit.
I just said this here last week: The Russians post comments on Finnish news sites and forums in Finnish. If they have the time and the resources to do propaganda on sites with readerships that are a tiny tiny fraction of /.'s, there's absolutely no doubt that they're actively posting and moderating here as well.
The way they operate in the social media is by having vast amounts of bots/fake accounts, usually with western names. Then they push out articles through their own media corps directly (RT etc,) or via 3rd parties like different conspiracy sites and communities that then share these on FB & al. Then they use the bots to 'moderate' these post for high visibility with likes and shares. In here, probably some of their people just gather mod points and then other write posts which the modders then vote up.
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
So while the FBI is setting up "them roooskies" as the boogie man of interfering with sovereign nation's democratic process, is that just to keep attention away from the american covert service's own programme for doing the same?
Many bodies seem to identify hacks as being "russian" due to the content of some of the code used - which contains fragments of other (known) "russian" hacks. But to recognise those code fragments, you have to have them. And if you have them, couldn't you be using them, yourself?
It is no different from selling weapons to "friendly" terrorists (aka insurgents, if they are on your side) that you sourced from enemies of the government you are targetting. So when they are found, there is no route that traces them back to the puppet-master.
America has a long tradition of influencing foreign governments, toppling dictators and installing their own leaders. Especially in central america. We should expect that they have not given up on this sort of activity. And what better way than online? Since nobody seems to be "finding" evidence of CIA hacks, is that because there are none, or because they are disguised as "russian", instead?
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
The Daily Mail still isn't a news source.
A whole flood of pro-Russian anti-Chinese propoganda on slashdot by "western" authors, who'd have thunk it?
Thats right, pull those definitions of left and right, introduce division. Fecking Russian dbag propagandists. Sort your own hole of a country out.
the U.S. will itself continue to interfere in elections, political matters, matters of trade and finance, in countries all over the world, while simultaneously spout off propaganda and accuse others of their own wrongs.
Joo, kylla sulla on paskanmarjat. Ei niita ryssia nyt jokapaikassa piileskele ...
There was a good article in a local satire magazine recently about how belief in almighty russian hackers is now a recognized religion.
Russians are tricky, that's for sure. My girlfriend is Russian and I occasionally admire her ingenuity. And Putin is not a man to pull any blows (find some videos on YouTube how he tells his ministers that they care idiots unable to do their jobs).
But how did we come to this new McCarthyism where everything is blamed on russian hackers, as if a) there were no chinese, indian, european or american hackers and b) hackers are the only possible answer, not intentional leaks, misdirection, scaremongering and media hype.
Frankly speaking: Why would the russian government even care about elections in the US or Europe? It's not like there's much difference in whoever gets election. Real politics hasn't been made by the figureheads of our states for decades now. If I were Putin, I would pay 2 people to spread some misinformation about russian hackers, and 2000 people to hack the hell out of the lobby groups, big consulting companies, financial institutions and especially the secret services. In other words: The backroom government and the deep state.
Who cares about the people flying in Air Force One when you can influence the real politics being made behind closed doors?
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Mod up please
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
While all you are saying is true, China does not show any ambitions of building an empire. It especially lacks any capability to project its military power. Last I checked, they had two aircraft carriers. (for comparison, the USA operates 10, half of the world-wide fleet).
China does understand the power of economics. Their economic activities around the world, especially their long game in Africa and South America, should worry anyone who looks beyond two election periods much, much more. This country is used to thinking in terms of centuries. They plant seeds now (of economic cooperation) that will blossom in 50 or 100 years.
The same is true for hacking. I don't think they care much about elections. In chinese terms, a US president is a temporary event. There'll be another one soon. But military secrets, technological advances, scientific progress - those are things worth stealing.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
What i expect is that the rulers of every country on this fucking planet will do whatever the fuck they want until we take them down.
Notice how the media continually says the Russians "interfered" with the election, but don't actually say what they actually DID, (or are supposed to have done). What SOMEBODY did was hack into Clinton's e-mails and expose them to the public, so we could see her numerous crimes and her corruption.
And apparently now Trump shouldn't be friendly with Russia, but instead should try to start a war with them - according to the controlled media.
The thing is - China isn't going to invade America
Neither is Russia.
What, exactly, are you americans all so afraid about? Not being able to be the bully on the playground anymore, that's what?
Nobody is threatening you. Some countries are just tired of being threatened.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
The "interference" amounted to what? Running slanted news stories? He testified that New York Times story about contacts between Trump campaign and Russian spies was essentially a work of fiction. Was NYT stealing an election? How about Al Jazeera? If Al Jazeera has its own take on the news reporting in the US, is it Qatar (whose government own Al Jazeera) stealing our elections? How about BBC? BBC is actually financed by the British government. And spare me the "it's independent" nonsense. When it comes to foreign affairs, BBC has a fairly unique point of view: all colonies which rejected British rule continue to be ruled by barbarians or by fools. Is that Britain trying to steal our elections? Who the fuck is Comey kidding? Has he not seen a single movie about the military? When the POTUS tells you "I hope you can let this go", and you work for him, your answer is "is that an order, Sir?" Instead he chose to spend federal money to investigate someone when his told him to let it go because the guy was already punished enough. So now Comey is jumping on the, hey, but look at Russia bandwagon to save his own ass? He was too stupid to ask if he was given an order and paralyzed the government for 3 months because of it. And now we are supposed to believe that 3 agencies which looked at some log dumps at told the other 14 agencies "we definitely saw something" means that Russian government was trying to hack US electoral systems? With no actual evidence for it? Yeah, nahah. Oh, wait, I must be a Russian spy, too. So, here we go: "nyet, nyet, nyet."
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Why would they bother with hackers in order to influence elections? Couldn't they register some obscure corporation in the US and simply use 'Citizens United' in order to bribe their way to power?
This is what is happening in Australia. Although in their case, there is no need to hide behind an Australian registered corporation.
I can't imagine more damage than was done to the country by Comey not asking "is that an order" when Trump asked if he could drop Flynn's investigation. Comey himself testified that a President can legitimately give such an order. But instead of clarifying what Trump was saying, Comey just gave us 3 months of finger pointing and bull rhetoric about potential abstraction of justice. 3 months of stalling the government because he was too stupid to ask a simple question... Can you name a dumber decision by a person with this much power in recent history?
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Seriously, those stupid corporate dems still try to blame Russia for their shameful defeat? Instead of publicly shaming Debbie W. Schulz and demanding an apology from Clinton on how she condoned and supported DNC' s role in the primaries against Bernie Sanders? Have they learned nothing?
Well then say hello to Trump for another 7,5 years!
Except that Even Comey stated clearly in response to repeated questions that there was no evidence that they were able to alter a single vote. They did not hack the election. They may have hacked the DNC and DCCC, and penetrated several state election board systems, but there is no evidence they were able to actually change any votes.
In regards to altering the outcome, all they did was publish the dirty laundry of Hillary and the DNC.
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
Bill was proven to have cheated on his wife and lied about it. He was impeached. It is alleged that Trump is playing Patsy fir a hostile nation, tried to obstruct an FBI investigation to protect his cronies and is changing the rules to let foreign nationals directly but favors. Will the Republicans impeach him as well or does he get special favors because as yet, there's no actual evidence?.
Fixed that for you.
China's key weapon is money and the reason they can wield it is our greed and desire for wealth.
It is buying them whatever they want. Look at the South China Sea, as an example.
Anyone who thinks that mass surveillance of the American public has not been a thing since at least The Declaration of Independence, or any other nation for that matter, is incredibly naive.
yes thats why The American Left decried the ousting of the democratically elected government in the Ukraine, and are in full support of the Russians working to restore the Democracy taken from them.
oh... wait... our American Left is actually defending the overthrow of the Ukrainian government? They have actually vilified the people that had their democracy stolen from them by the CIA?
The American Left will say anything at any time, completely opposite positions dont even give them a single millisecond of pause.
Fuck The Democrats.
"His name was James Damore."
Ahahahahahahaa. Translation: "You're talking bullshit. the Russians are not hiding everywhere."
Firstly: did I say they're everywhere? Nope. Finland and the US are both strategic targets for Russian information warfare for rather obvious reasons. Second of all, they're not doing that good a job of hiding in the first place, the comments are often quite easy to spot- Thirdly, there's been journalism done that exposes these kinds of operations here and elsewhere in the Nordics, google is your friend.
So you've effectively been spotted, but it's okay, you still managed to mess up the US elections pretty effectively so it wasn't all for nothing, Calm down Comrade and have some chai and pirogi. ;)
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
Under Saddam the Iraqi people lived a good healthy life in a modern country. Yes, rebels were not tolerated but why should terrorists be tolerated? They are not tolerated in Turkey either. In fact Syria is the only country that was good to the Kurds. After Saddam's murder and the murder of hundreds of thousands of their fellow countrymen the country has been overrun by terrorists, has no reliable running water or electricity. There is no industry or education, it is no longer a functioning country. At the time most were not happy that he was removed. There were orchestrated TV scenes that were staged managed like the famous one of the statue being toppled by a US military crane but that was just theatre. A democratic country was turned into a hell hole. I think you would find it hard to find anyone, even amongst the Kurds, that thinks life is better.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Your thinking is what is so bizarre about today's political climate. A variety of US intelligence services, in the course of monitoring Russian agents who often are part of recruiting US citizens, noticed a high level of contact between high level trump campaign people and these agents. It's become clear that there was an intense effort by the Russians to get trump elected, and that's part of an ongoing effort to influence and ultimately control US elections.
Let that sink in. A hostile foreign power wants to decide who is running the US government. However bad you think the USA is today, it would be a crap ton worse with Putin running it, and elections being utterly meaningless.
And with all that, with the fate of our democracy at stake, people are worried that some of trump's buddies who were busy talking to these Russian had their names revealed... again, NOT because THEY were being monitored, but because the RUSSIAN AGENTS they were talking to were monitored.
Congratulations, you've managed to focus on the mote, and ignore the tidal wave bearing down on you. People like you are why our democracy is in such trouble right now.
Do you actually read the links you post?
The memo from Phoenix went out two months before 9-11 and led to Zacarias Moussaoui being caught the month before 9-11.
How do you leap from that to "Clinton's siloing" stopping the other 19 terrorists from being caught? If there is no intelligence pointing anywhere and Moussaoui did not know enough of the other attackers (from siloing on the terrorist side, I might add) then what is there to do?
Oh, right...play the blame game on strained logic and half-truths in 20-20 hindsight. You're an American hero!
The "Miracle" in China, is also its "Curse"
The Miracle is that the government created zones with the economic laws, not written but simply understood, "don't be dicks to your fellow Chinese." The economic prosperity this has created is as much as miracle as free market capitalism ever was. Hundreds of millions of Chinese have migrated into these free market zones in spite of the Wests attempts to make it sound so terrible to be in one of them. From time to time the government arrests a ton of people, heads of corporations, police chiefs, what-not. It offends my sense of due process, but my guess is that most of the time the people being taken down deserve some of it..
The Curse is that their future is just like every Western nation. England has a Queen, China will have its own power-stunted supreme leader too. The bureaucrats are coming.
"His name was James Damore."
1. Many people don't want war with Russia, they think that is the best for Russia, the US and the world.
2. Russia keeps asking the US to stop organizing coups and putting military bases around them, that seems reasonable.
3. Those interested in 1 will make comments supporting 2, the "Russian agenda". Even if we disagree with most of Russian politics.
Before the US started surrounding them with missiles this was not an issue, no one talked about them. The problem as I see is that somehow many Americans think that the American agenda is world military domination, those that disagree are being called pro-Russia/Putin/Russian agenda.
It seems like you read the Snowden documents and changed NSA/GCHQ for Russians.
That Wikipedia article is a train wreck of broken links and links to non-corroborating or even unrelated subjects, someone seriously needs to clean that up.
In other words, it's just like the Trump-Russia scandal, so you support full investigation of both, right?
I've always wondered, if the Iraqi people had the choice to go back in time and keep Saddam and his progeny instead of what they have now, would they? At the time they seemed very happy when he was removed.
How is this even a question?
“...I am one of the political prisoners who was arrested in 1988, but life was better in Saddam’s days, compared with now.”...
If they had such an option they would probably want to return to a point in time to prevent Bremer from disbanding the Iraqi army and delaying Iraqi's from taking control of the government.
The problem with Iraq wasn't really the invasion, it was the occupation that followed.
No, the biggest problem was the invasion. I'm not saying you're completely wrong. But to pick out one mistake out of so many is misleading. To begin with the war was based on a lie. So if not WMD, what were the real reasons for going to war? If Jack shoots himself with a gun, then doesn't dress the wound properly, the reason Jack died was because he shot himself.
But anyway, after the invasion, Col. Ted Spain was the guy in charge of law & order, he seems like a great resource to list all the mistakes:
They'll never find one as moronic and stupid as this time.
Except that Even Comey stated clearly in response to repeated questions that there was no evidence that they were able to alter a single vote. They did not hack the election. They may have hacked the DNC and DCCC, and penetrated several state election board systems, but there is no evidence they were able to actually change any votes.
Nobody is honestly claiming that the Russians have altered any votes after the fact, that claim is only used by people that want to muddy the waters. The serious claim is that the Russians have been manipulating public opinion, and thereby influencing the choices the voters have made.
In regards to altering the outcome, all they did was publish the dirty laundry of Hillary and the DNC.
No, that was not all they did, they also have been shilling, and spying, among other things. And the neat little insinuation that there was any dirty laundry to expose is not supported by the facts.
Currently our elections don't lead to real politics. Just politicians doing nothing and eating money. If Russians (ah, those Russians!) interfere, they will subvert such results, leading Italy to either politicians doing something and eating money or even doing some and don't eating money.
We need your help, Putin. You are our only hope!
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
Trump has handed the embassies back and now wants to let the expelled staff back.
If they had such an option they would probably want to return to a point in time to prevent Bremer from disbanding the Iraqi army and delaying Iraqi's from taking control of the government. These two decisions by Bremer, a career diplomat who served numerous administrations, essentially started the insurgency and created an opportunity for al-Queda in Iraq.
Bremer says those weren't his decisions. He says he was ordered to do so, that order came from Rumsfield's office but Rumsfield also says he was ordered to do so but won't say by whom. It seem likely that the order originated from Cheney's office and was made on the recommendation of Chalabi, who wanted to install his own army and government in Iraq. If that's the case, then it wasn't a mistake, as much as it was a deliberate betrayal of America and Iraq's common interests to profit an ally of Dick Cheney.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
always need a paper trail and quality control for voting machines, federally funded and standardized, transparent tabulation and results, something like , after voting you are issued a paper ticket with 2 unique numbers, you go to a website and enter one number, it gives you the vote cast, when and the second number,
all of the second numbers are published.
Comey was a corrupt democrat party operative. It was his responsibility to prevent foreign government interference in the US elections. He was a terrible and in competent FBI Director. In his own words, he was a weak and a coward. FBI Director! Now he is going to get $10 million to write a book. Go figure.
And now we are supposed to believe that 3 agencies which looked at some log dumps at told the other 14 agencies "we definitely saw something" means that Russian government was trying to hack US electoral systems?
You missed part of his testimony. Those 3 letter agencies NEVER looked at the servers, they were never allowed to. It is based on the comments of a private company hired by the DNC, who will not testify under oath that Russia hacked the servers. They changed their opinion when Muller was appointed as special council and lying to him would have landed them in jail.
So no, 3 letter agencies are not saying they looked at logs, and the people who did are not willing to testify under oath either. So you have literally NO ONE willing to say it was Russians, other than the media who is making it up.
"China's rapid growth is not impacting half of the country, and that's causing a lot of unrest. "
If you look at the 7 lines system (The High Speed rail network) and associated works it's clear the chinese government is rolling out massive infrastructure developments to try and pull investors away from Shenzen and the coastal areas in general.
Whilst China's slowed down/stopped rolling out more coal plants (as in more than existing, but still replacing older ones), they're going hell-for-leather in nuclear development and if still on the roadmap as planned, will have a pebblebed-based Molten Salt Reactor running soon. They're aiming for a test LFTR technology reactor to be live towards the end of 2018 - more than 50 years since the Oak Ridge Experiment was last run and 45 years since Nixon killed the project.
Why is this important? A lot of the posturing by the USA and other militaries around the world is about access to energy resources. If the chinese commercialise LFTRs and roll them out en masse to developing countries, then energy costs are set to drop dramatically, oil becomes mostly obsolete and most of the "renewables" projects are simply silly trinkets.
There may be some milage in the thought that the chinese presence in the south china sea really is intended to keep the area neutral and more importantly to dissuade anyone from attempting to drill for gas/oil in the region. China is particularly vulnerable to sea level rise and I'd imagine they're planning on the basis of avoiding mass movement of ~3-400 million people off the coastal plains.
How will that help?
In regards to altering the outcome, all they did was publish the dirty laundry of Hillary and the DNC.
No, that was not all they did, they also have been shilling, and spying, among other things. And the neat little insinuation that there was any dirty laundry to expose is not supported by the facts.
Indeed during the election, I was interested in reading some of this supposed "dirty laundry" but time and again the claims were not backed up by actual facts. They relied of extremely tortured interpretations of sentence fragments from emails. For example, there was one about "Hillary hates Catholics", which Trump actually tried to use in his speech at the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Foundation Dinner. The actual email was between two staffers, Hillary was not involved as either a recipient or a sender and the staffers were gossiping about a pair of trust fund young Republicans. One them said neither attended Catholic churches, and thus were more Evangelical than Catholic but couldn't officially change religion because they'd lose access to their Trust funds. That was heralded as conclusive proof that Hillary Clinton hates all Catholics.
I looked at half dozen other claims and they were all the same, some bit of something from an email twisted beyond the point of recognition into "conclusive proof" of some outlandish claim. After the fact, it seems like there are indications that many of those sites were part of the propaganda efforts put together by the Russian propaganda agencies. The only question is whether the posters who posted links to them on Slashdot were useful idiots or paid propagandists.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Comey was the leader of the chief government agency in charge of domestic counterintelligence, the FBI. If this was happening, wasn't it their job to stop it?
"former". hey comey. mcdonalds is hiring.
Unbelievable.
Right, this is why we overthrow democratic governments to put into power people who are more in line with corporate interests...
The problem with the Left, is that they would take totalitarian assholes over totalitarian assholes, where the right wants totalitarian assholes over totalitarian assholes.
Some places don't know how to have real democracy and democratic principles, even after you show them. They are too damn tribal and corruption is part and parcel to "how business is done".
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
So far, the biggest interferer with any elections worldwide is the good old Washington DC, USA. And across the Potomac river, the good old Pentagon, VA.
Russia under Putin as a bad actor all right, but what I don't get is how can they really be a threat to the West, or at least a semi-unified West.
I think, Militarily, they are not really a threat, except to their immediate neighbours. The larger threat lies in espionage and destabilization. Russia literally operates entire armies of propagandists to maintain order in Russia, and they are starting to see the benefits of directing that propaganda power outside of their country to sow chaos among their enemies. Crimea, for example, was a the result of a several years long propaganda campaign by Russia followed by with a small, clandestine, military action. But I don't know if they will ever be able to pull it off again, but they will likely try, even though it obviously didn't work as well on the Ukrainian border...
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Speaking as a New Zealander, I'd rather Russia were in charge instead of 'Murica.
Then you're probably a fool. America has many, many problems, but "Russia in charge" is much, much worse, unless you're a fan of sham elections, political assassinations and state sponsored propaganda campaigns.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Well, if they ever do that will be the first.
All I have ever seen is innuendo and guesses, and absolutely zero actual proof of them doing anything.
-- Given enough time and money, Microsoft will eventualy invent UNIX.
'Daniel Fried, a career diplomat who oversaw sanctions imposed on Russia before retiring this year, told the Times that Comey "was spot-on right that Russia is coming after us, but not just the U.S., but the free world in general. And we need to take this seriously."'
Russia always has, and always will interfere with our elections. Just like we do with other nations. It's nothing new and, the only reason it's getting so much attention now is because of all the people on the left looking for any reason to get rid of someone they don't like. Also, they don't like him NOT because he can't do the job. The don't like him because he is not a career politician and thereby, is not part of the elitist crowd on both sides.
"Everything China is doing, Russia tried to do."
The difference is that up to about 3-400 years ago, China and the west were about technologically equal. What's happened since then is attributable to the industrial revolution and China's coal resources being virtually inaccessible in the hinterland vs Europe and North America's being easy to get at.
300 years ago Russia was mostly swamp, forest and steppes with an agrarian economy and the population mostly inward looking peasants. 150 years ago it was still much the same, with some beginnings of nationalism stirring.
China's got the brains, the numbers to make things work and a will to avoid repeats of the civil wars which wracked the country during the 19th and 20th centuries. Russia would have gotten much further if not hamstrung by the Stalin and crippling corruption that never went away when the royals were removed.
Chinese people I speak to in Europe are happy to criticise their government and surprised that we can particpate so freely in politics but generally choose not to. Russians are reluctant to speak about politics or their leaders unless they have zero intention of ever returning home. That says a lot.
CItizens are poorly informed at the best of times, let alone when they are fed raw sewage thanks to the alt right and all the fake crap.
You're so close to getting it. It's a shame that you haven't yet been able to remove your partisan goggles. Yes, the public is poorly informed. That isn't because they are just too stupid to think clearly. It is because they are beset on all sides with agenda-driven propaganda. The people don't know what to believe anymore, and their left with the option of believing nothing, or arbitrarily believing one particular propaganda feed over another.
I hate China though.
Probably they already have. I'm just saying. This is part of the game of chess powerful players in large governments play with each other to try and get more things going their way.
This just comes to show that neither country's version of "democracy" has managed to eliminate the Oligarchy, and how the "State" can still become detrimental to the people, as it begins to serve more and more the interests of the Nobility (The "Congressmen" and "Officials" who maintain a pretension of being chosen by the people ---- In reality, their composition is biased heavily towards their In-Group supported by whatever corporations and billionaires are in favor of what they will Truly wind up doing with their power).
It's just in the US our Nobility let us pretend to elect them to their office (But our choices are limited to Oligarch A or Oligarch B), most of the time, so "Influencing" our elections is more about who can do the most favors for which side to get the one of two options that best serves other states.
> China does not show any ambitions of building an empire
> their long game in Africa and South America, should worry anyone who looks beyond two election periods
lolwhut?
Why is this news? Everything, absolutely everthing, attached to the Internet is being attacked constantly by script kiddies, company competitors, government spies, and anyone else with a pulse.
So why are we surprised that elections are a target? We do it, they do it, everyone does it.
Sxxt happens. Get over it, clean it up and defend against the next episode.
I think it is imort ant to demand that our people and poliione especially run and hide whenever someone with a foreign, eecially Russian name, approaches them. Afterall, the Ruskies are so superior that they will overcome our weak little politions. Run, run away fast.
On another note, it is always a good move to never talk to or have dialog channels with you adversaries. They are so strong, and we are so weak and defensless.
Sigh. Moron.
Well if you replaced our whole government with Russia's whole government, yeah it would be a crap ton worse. I'm not convinced that if you simply replaced Trump with Putin that it would be any worse, and in fact would probably be better. Congress and the intelligence agencies would do like they are with Trump, not let him actually do anything that would *really* threaten the country. And at least we wouldn't be led by a man, already in a dead heat with Putin for 'most corrupt major power leader', whose malevolence is matched only by his stupidity and disgraces the country every time he opens his orange baboon megalomaniac mouth or tweets the latest stream-of-(lack of)-consciousness idiocy he's regurgitating from Russia Today's US Fox affiliate.
Not to mention you're really overestimating how meaningful our elections are these days. Is having two parties that are united on 90% of the ways they want to fuck the country, who actually differ only by which particular way they fuck us, and distract and divide us on a few social wedge issues instead of, you know, the 90% of the other ways they're fucking us.. is that really SO much better than just having them join together and drop all pretense? tl;dr covert fucking: better or worse than overt fucking?
Sorry, up all night and a wee bit grumpy.
The core of the problem is that the Democrats unexpectedly lost and their smug personna cannot grasp that. So, like a child, their only recourse is to keep yelling that the other side cheated. All I keep hearing is the yelling over and over, Cheater. CHEATER. CHEATER. CHEATER. CHEATER CHEATER.
Propaganda isn't the same as interfering with an election. They're interfering with people's information, and maybe their way of thinking, but that's not interfering in the election itself. They're not preventing or altering the votes. Please stop using phrases to mean things other than what they should. 1984 called. It wants its newspeak back.
never turns out better.
Never is a long time.
Counterexamples: Japan, Italy, and Germany.
Why don't we just do the same and let Putin get some of the same medicine... things are getting rough in Russia... protestors are taking the streets.
Reality is you think someone like me is Russian troll just because I have no issue with Russia and I am tired of none-sense. I am a Russian troll your mind even though I was in the US Army(2000-2003, 101st 1-187th Aco). I had a Russian roommate that was also in US Army at the time and funny enough he use to be in the Russian army at one time. To sum it up just because someone is somewhat pro-russia in that I don't want cold war 2.0 or worse nuclear war , doesn't make me or majority of them Russia FSB trolls. Reality the DNC has vast online troll operation that has been going on for years.
Yes, land, naval, air, space, and cyberspace war. Germany will, as it always has, taken care of the international problems plaguing the world since the end of the second world war. Now especially as the cowardly US fades that will become obvious to everyone. Germany will fight, and the Eu will fight Russia to maintain quality of life. The failure of the US to react is a sign of its destruction by Trump. That is the other truly sad part of the revealed Russian agression.
The thread is a bit stale, but I want to chime in.
With some regularity, Slashdot members have called me a paid Microsoft shill. I am a Linux user and don't actually need money. In all those cases, I posted factual information, to the best of my recollection.
I was away, dealing with some personal stuff, during the election.
Since returning, I've had just one comment that accused me of being a Russian. I've had several that accused me of being a Trump voter. I didn't vote for Trump and don't even like the guy. Hell, I dislike him. I am, however, a fan of facts and honesty.
You may be able to see why I view such accusations with great skepticism. I know, factually, that these accusations aren't accurate, at least sometimes. I know that I am not employed by Russia, a Trump voter, or a shill for Microsoft. Hell, I have met quite a few people who post here. I have had some of you in my home. I am pretty sure that none of that group is engaged in any of those things.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... , something the CIA invented. If you really think Russia isn't playing both sides, you are truly an idiot.
I think this election proved that the mainstream left is just as, if not more guilty of spreading fake news than the alt right but keep on playing the blame game
Oh no, someone will not let political parties get away with their lies and bullshit and expose the truth. How terrible! How dare they! I mean it was one sided and with the purpose of altering the results but still, the truth came out and that's what mattered.
Lol I find it funny that anyone who questions or disputes the so called findings of this investigation is automatically some Rusky troll. How about you provide some tangible evidence that shows a relationship to Russia instead of parroting what you hear on the Clinton News Network!!!
I just said this here last week: The Russians post comments on Finnish news sites and forums in Finnish. If they have the time and the resources to do propaganda on sites with readerships that are a tiny tiny fraction of /.'s, there's absolutely no doubt that they're actively posting and moderating here as well.
There was absolutely no doubt of that during the election. The moderation of politicial stories took a sudden and drastic turn. What was even more obvious was that even more than pro-trump posts, what was getting +5 mods was ridicule of the meer idea that Putin or Russians might be involved. You tell me what group of people would be flooding a US political forum with their #1 priority being promoting Russia and Russian politicians and only their #2 priority being promoting their favorite US politician?
I had to quit posting on the stories, simply because it got to be such a drag reading page after page of upvoted Russian propaganda. They basically removed /. as a useful forum for the last 3 months of the election.
They are all corrupt.
Scott Ritter, who was the chief UN weapons inspector of Iraq until 1998 said there was no evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program, although there might still be unaccounted weapons of mass destruction although unlikely.
Did you see him on the nightly news explaining this? We don't have a media, we have a propaganda system. He never showed up, but he was out there trying to explain it to the public through social media and youtube. He tried to talk to Congress but was refused.
Eventually you guys are going to realize our government didn't just like about Iraq, but Libya, and is lying about Syria. Think about it, why would Assad use the ONE WEAPON against a civilian population that would guarantee the US an excuse to attack him? The answer is he wouldn't.
The real reason the US is in Syria is for Genie Energy. Israel sold the oil mining rights to Genie Energy on August 2013. The Golan Heights is Syrian land occupied by Israel. August 2013 is supposedly the first time Assad gassed his own people, and he (supposedly) did this on the same day UN weapons inspectors showed up to verify he wasn't using chemical weapons, and this happened weeks after Obama said any such use of chemical weapons would justify war with the US and Syria.
Look up who is on the Strategic Board of Directors of Genie.
It's a setup, it's a lie, it's a false flag. Your government is filled with goons, not representatives.
Honest questions here... Is the majority opinion then that we would have preferred to remain ignorant of the DNC activities until after the election was decided? If not, was the DNC hack "just deserts" and our main concern propaganda separate from the DNC hack?
I doubt there has been an election in the last 60 years in the US or Russia that the other party hasn't influenced to some degree.
I actually agree with a lot of this, but I don't think it makes sense to downplay the military (specifically naval) threat.
Last I checked, they had two aircraft carriers
That would be more reassuring if it weren't for the fact that last *I* checked, they had only one carrier, and no planes that could land on it. They currently have those two, two more under construction, and another planned. Two to Five operable fleet carriers is actually pretty dang muscular. Sure, they may have to think twice about anything the US will fight over, but would the US fight to protect Vietnam? How about Taiwan? China seems pretty determined to get Taiwan back, and with 5 carriers the only way to stop them would be a full-blown shooting war with the USA (with a very chancy result, given China's logistical advantages in that part of the world).
China has been very aggressive lately with their maritime neighbors. This is making all their neighbors think hard about rearmament. If anyone thinks that will end with some gun-induced peaceful Nirvana in the region, I'd say they've been reading too many John Ringo novels (or perhaps not enough. They're a good way to spend time, and clearly reality-based politics is not this kind of persons' bag).
Really? The "right" is a threat to democracy? You know the "evil right wing" is the one of few political party that defends individuals right to bear arms while the draconian left is always finding ways to infringe upon this constitutional right. Who is the one spreading anti American sentiment? The left with their hate groups including Antifa and BLM who use any excuse they get to incite violence and hatred. Censoring people like Ann Coulter and David Horowitz from speaking at college campuses because of fear of violent intimidation from intolerant leftist students. Sounds like you guys are guilty of being a threat to democracy as well so don't pretend to take some sort of moral high ground.
You may be right about a lot of that, I don't know. I really wonder at your description of Saddam's Iraq as a Democratic country though.
Russia is not a threat to the US.. they're not even comparable as an economic power to the US, China or the EU. They would have to make significant structural changes to compete and grow economically and if they did that... then they wouldn't be ideologically opposed to the west so still no threat. The establishment was aghast at Trump winning and this is the boogieman to whip us up into a mob mentality to support a (metaphorical since it would be legal) coup.
I think it's obvious now that a lot of thought wasn't put into what to do after we toppled Saddam. Saddam brought his death on himself though. Playing games and defying the terms of the ceasefire of the First Gulf War wasn't a smart thing to do when the US was still in a rage over 9/11. In retrospect I too think the invasion of Iraq was a mistake but it's almost like Saddam was daring Bush to do it.
How's this for reality? You libtards lost and no matter what you do now, you can't change that Republicans are in control for the next few years. Hate it? Too bad now you know how we felt during Obama's and other libtard presidencies.
Thanks for the anecdote! Unfortunately even removing AC wouldn't provide any real benefit to uncovering or determining the possibility of or extent of any shill/propagandist style activity. Puppet accounts are easy to create. How about some kind of country of origin geoip location with filtering for tor exits/vpns? AC can be retained, but I expect all sorts of remote compromises and bouncers to make this idea worthless, too.
The point seems more that the current president Donald J Trump only came to power with the assistance of foreign powers that have no regard for the actual wishes of the people of America, and indeed, seek to harm the nation. That's the takeaway - that his recent actions in attempting to stifle the probe into the relationship between members of his campaign team and the Russians is symptomatic that they, or he personally, put ambition ahead of the nation, and there is a strong potential that he (or they) should be impeached, indicted, and then spend time in federal prison.
I think it's obvious the dems are just trying to keep congress from passing bills until the next mid-term. The "russians hacked the election" and "trump was (maybe?) part of it" are the way to keep the republicans from working with him. That's all it is.
Let that sink in. A hostile foreign power wants to decide who is running the US government.
The fact that you think this is significant.... or new.... I'm baffled.
At what point is it time to just block all systems in Russia and North Korea during critical events? I frequently have to do this for clients, when some script kiddie from Bulgaria or Croatia wants to send spam from their servers. Why not just have all ISPs block all traffic from Russia for a week before and after any election? Months? Permanently? I don't feel like my quality of life would suffer any if Russians couldn't reach my servers.
Call it the Freedom Bloc and all the mouth breathing hyper-patriotic tagalongs can hoop and holler that it's anti-communist or something while crushing beer cans on their forehead and screaming 'Murica!'
Don't worry, Trump will take credit for that, too.
Team Hillary thought the election was in the bag, there was no way Trump could become President they all thought, then when he won the Democrats all sat around wondering how the election was stolen from them!
Ken
Yes, Republicans are elitists, they fight only for a small subset of Americans: the religious right and the top .01%. Their main strategy is misinformation, because the facts tend to side with liberals. Now, the fact is, Democrats and Republicans both fail, but at different things. Democrats fail to run winning campaigns, while Republicans fail to govern when they win.
CNN is a right wing propaganda machine.
No matter who took or was given power in Iraq there would have been an insurgency.
tl;dr: So what if Putin wanted us to elect trump? As long as he didn't literally hack the voting machines and change the votes then so what if our choice happens to align with his?
Crappy parable that I made up on the spot:
There was a farmer who had some vegetables he needed to sell at the village market.
To get to the market in the village he needed to cross a river. There were two bridges he could take-- and he had to take one of them because there was no other way across. At first he didn't know which bridge he would take but figured he would decide when the time came.
He came to a fork in the road-- one fork leading to the north bridge, the other fork leading the south bridge.
Time to decide.
But there in road stood a thug. The thug was lounging by the sign post and looked up when the farmer approached.
The thug greeted the farmer, who was wary of this obvious ne'er-do-well. There was an awkward silence as the farmer looked at the sign and was making up his mind on which way to go.
"The northern bridge is almost impassible" said the thug, "Flood's lapping over the top of the bridge this morning. You're best off taking the southern bridge."
The farmer knew that flooding was a definite problem at this time of year and that the thug was almost certainly telling the truth.
The farmer didn't like taking the southern bridge because it was a shabbier bridge and the route after it was stony and rough.
But farmer figured that since the northern bridge was almost certainly flooded that he had to take the difficult southern bridge because if he went north and the bridge turned out to be flooded that by the time he could turn around and take the southern bridge it would be too late in the day and he would lose all the profits that he needed from selling his vegetables.
So he wound up taking the southern bridge-- what choice did he have?
Yet when he finally returned home and described his day to his wife she shouted at him: "Why did you listen to the thug? Don't you know he was just trying to influence you? It might have been a trap!"
But trap or not, what choice did the farmer have? Isn't a broken clock right twice a day? Do not even liars sometimes tell the truth?
If they had such an option they would probably want to return to a point in time to prevent Bremer from disbanding the Iraqi army and delaying Iraqi's from taking control of the government. These two decisions by Bremer, a career diplomat who served numerous administrations, essentially started the insurgency and created an opportunity for al-Queda in Iraq.
Bremer says those weren't his decisions.
Absolutely false according to a National Geographic channel documentary ("American vs Iraq" ?) that was interviewing many American and Iraqi principals.
The military and white house plan was to use the Iraqi army. The day before the army dismissal Bremer had a call with Bush pleading the case for dismissal , Bush responded something to the effect: You're the person on the scene so if you think it is necessary. The Pentagon was not happy.
With respect to pushing back the timeframe of turning over the government to Iraqis the white house and pentagon were completely taken by surprise by Bremer's announcement of days, learning of it only through the newspaper stories covering Bremer's announcement. It was in response to Bremer's actions and to prevent more delays that Bush declared a date for the government turnover. Bremer was strongly against allowing Iraqi's to vote early on, he didn't think they were "ready". To counter Bremer the Iraqi's turned to the United Nations to get election scheduled at an earlier date and there was some progress but it all ended with an al-Quaeda attack on the UN compound with caused the UN to withdraw from Iraq.
Chalabi and other Chenney friends came later.
No matter who took or was given power in Iraq there would have been an insurgency.
A token one, some Saddam diehards. Not enough to effect the direction of the nation. For that wide scale involvement in the insurgency was necessary and dismissal of the army was the key precipitating event. Bombings and US casualties immediately jumped after the dismissal, within days. Also note that once the "army" was "sort of" reformed in the sense that the sunni and other militias were put on the US payroll to fight al-Quaeda in Iraq (proto-ISIS) insurgent activity dropped significantly.
We have no reason to think voting computers aren't getting hacked. We know they aren't secure so it's possible, and they clearly have motive.
Your right the systems aren't secure but that isn't the real problem. First so what if the Russians are trying to hack us and fix the elections. The US has done it for years all around the globe to a lot more countries than Russia. When we don't get "our man" we then stage a coup to oust the guy we don't like its SOP for the CIA. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black. Our government is telling us its OK for us to hack other countries and OUR OWN PEOPLE but other countries its not.
I am a security researcher the reason for the posting as AC. I have read every report read including the one leaked by Reality Winner and none of the reports contain any evidence what so ever the points to the Russians running the hack. Actually it points to either an inside job or a US related attack. I write reports all the time like these and every statement I make must be supported by evidence listed below the statement. I can't say "the Tester assessed" without evidence to support that assessement. I'd get fired for turning reports like these and rightly so. Even the classified document is so much BS.
Also on Reality Winner she gets thrown under the bus and immeditly arrested when Hillary leaks over 30,000 documents and thats OK. When you get down to the law they both broke the same law "Mis-handling of Classified Material". What Ms Winner leaked really had no damning classified data as I said earlier the report is bogus propaganda. What was found the the Hillary files was evidence of even more crimes of graft corruption and paying for favors and real sensitive data leaked yet she walks free.
Plus she ordered the removal of classified headers from classified documents that in itself is a seperate Federal crime. Ms Winner did leave these headers on the doc she leaked.
Let's talk about the REAL HACK against the election systems it seems all the reporting stopped on the DHS getting caught attempting to hack the State of Georgia which caught them in the act and then 9 other states reported the same attempts about that same time. I that report there is clear evidence the DHS did this. The attack lead back to an IP address leased by the DHS. Seems there hackers didn't learn the forst rule of hacking "never hack from home". Here there is hard and clear evidence that the US attacked one of it own state's networks which is a lot worse than an attempt by the Russians. Our own government did this.
Here is Georgia a remote attack wouldn't work. All machines related to voting data have no Internet access and are kept on a closed loop network. At the voting statons there is no network. All data is transfered with data cards. Yes the security on the voting machines is a epic fail but you wouldl have to have physical access to the machines to hack them. Yes a USB attack could bring them down easily but you would have to hit every system or the tabular machine to hack the votes. The Russians know this.
Even if the attacking code "looks" Russian we have seen in leaked data that the CIA has tools to change code to "look" Russian.
Something is going on behind all these smoke and mirrors this is what worries me.
This is text book USSR style propaganda from the 50's and 60's. This time it comes from our own government.
To begin with the war was based on a lie. So if not WMD ...
Saddam and various Iraqi political and military officials have confirmed that Iraq secretly held WMD in violation of the first gulf war cease fire and UN agreements. They also admit bio and chemical research programs, however these were small scale and made little progress. A nuclear program was also continued in a covert planning sense and it was estimated to need 18-24 months to get up to speed from its current state (mostly planning on paper). One official said that Iraq had approximately 80 chemical rockets that could hit Tehran, Iran.
The Iraqi military officials then went on to say that Saddam eventually became concerned the US would discover the above and ordered it all destroyed. However he ordered that it all be **secretly** destroyed, no paper trail. He feared the papers could leak and prove Iraq was in violation. Plus Saddam wanted the Iranians to suspect he had something to keep them at bay.
So yes Iraq was technically free of WMD at the time of the invasion, but scraps of evidence of WMD programs were legitimate. Saddam was successful at hiding the destruction of his hidden caches and hidden programs. He wanted the US and more importantly Iran to keep guessing, unfortunately he could not predict the US' post-911 intolerance of not knowing for sure.
But anyway, after the invasion, Col. Ted Spain was the guy in charge of law & order, he seems like a great resource: Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld’s deployment plans. They didn’t include an adequate number of military police to control the routes during the ground war, and then we didn’t have sufficient military police to control the streets after the ground war.
True, but that seems to refer to the US providing all security. As in past wars the pentagon was expecting the Iraqi army to provide manpower. At the end of WW2 surrendered german military were used to help control traffic and the streets, to pick out the die hards trying to hide among ordinary civilians and soldiers, to conduct searches of German civilian homes, confiscating weapons, etc. In the Pacific surrendered Imperial Japanese troops were used to police some territories until a functional local government could be elected and established.
Plus Bremer was being repeatedly warned by Iraqi political leaders and former military to put "the men" on the US payroll to keep them from becoming angry and desperate.
... The Coalition Provisional Authority, under the leadership of L. Paul Bremer III, dismantled the Iraqi Army, and the highest level of the Baath Party. Under Saddam Hussein, the highest ranks could only belong to Baath Party members, so we lost some of the most experienced personnel that were so vital in putting Iraq back together again ...
My understanding is that the original pentagon plan was to remove various officers with personal connections to Saddam, atrocities, etc. While this may decimate the upper most ranks it was thought it would only minimally impact NCOs and lower ranks of officers. Allowing these NCOs and lower ranking officers to remain in command of the troops. The Iraq officers would essential receive their instructions from US officers.
However Bremer rejected this plan because he wanted the symbolism of Saddam's army being completely "destroyed" and a new army created. Unfortunately the insurgency began in earnest with days of the army's dismissal.
Abu Ghraib certainly accelerated the insurgency, but it was the second major acceleration. The first major acceleration being the dismissal of the army. A valuable and wasted resource for the US.
NOAA predicts Sun will rise in the east, set in the west. IRS predicts people will cheat on their taxes. Anyone predicts Slashdot will publish any old thing.
At least if the French had let the vietnamese vote they would have chosen their own government and who knows, under those conditions maybe things would have been different.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
You don't think it's significant ? It is. And everyone else in the world where we interfere with their politics thinks it's significant too.
Seriously? Have you heard what Putin has been saying since Bill Clinton was President? Have you heard of what he was saying about Hillary when she was Secretary of State? With autocrats (as you will start to learn with Trump) the personal is political, and Putin has been extremely pissed off with Bill and Hillary since Bill gave the order to bomb bits of the former Yugoslavia without telling Russia first. Putin built his political career on making a fuss about Bill Clinton trying to take over "Russia's backyard" based on those events.
What form did this "interference" take, anyway?
Did they intimidate voters at polling places? Systematically prevent some categories of people from registering to vote? Did they stuff ballot boxes? Did they fraudulently fill out large numbers of absentee ballots for people suffering from severe cases of dementia or death?
I've not been following this all that closely, so maybe I missed it.
What form did this "interference" take?
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
This is good info and details - thank you. I see it's the 2nd most important reason. But I also remember when they were beating the drums, I was thinking, 'Compared to the US, this is a relatively poor country. Don't they have intelligence on the ground? Those were the best pics they could get?' As Cheney said years earlier on MTP, they knew the risks. Including the surrounding violence that Iraq had contributed to, we are talking about over 1 million deaths. A million. The soft power that we lost. The advantage we gave Iran, Al Queda, Isis would have been Hussein's enemy. Is it worth waiting for real intelligence? Yes. If they were invading us, different story. But we were the aggressor. We controlled the timetable. Don't go in unless we're at least close to sure, and we were not. I read Bush At War, where he questioned (this from my memory) Rumsfield, 'Get me the intelligence pointing to Iraq' 'But we don't have good intelligence showing that' 'I saaid, get me intelligence pointing to Iraq.' To this day, I want to know what was in Bush's head or ear when he made that decision. It couldn't have been just WMD, or even oil, imo.
I do agree - big picture was bad, but Saddam did get what he deserved at least.
There's a difference between building an empire and forging (economic) alliances. Ancient Rome vs. the European Union.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Yes. I'll shed no tears for that individual.
Thanks for the anecdote! Unfortunately even removing AC wouldn't provide any real benefit to uncovering or determining the possibility of or extent of any shill/propagandist style activity. Puppet accounts are easy to create. How about some kind of country of origin geoip location with filtering for tor exits/vpns? AC can be retained, but I expect all sorts of remote compromises and bouncers to make this idea worthless, too.
The only solution is to create innumerable named accounts, use each randomly and throw each away after a random time. Better than posting AC, this destroys the entire idea of a coherent group with implicit trust which is the mechanism abused for these kinds of manipulations. That applies not just to slashdot but to every forum. The Internet is dysfunctional, and is being used to mount threats to physical security. Deprive the paid fools of an audience by making everything as fake as they are. Deprive Russia and its pawns of all power and observe peace through strength greater than anything they can piss on.
... as I recall they did the same thing in world war II with pearl harbor; a full hour warning about impending japanese attack. and they did nothing. or how about world war I, where they were shipping arms illegally on the Lusitania, and lied about it to the American public claiming it wasn't shipping arms.
be serious.