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Green Party Leaders Don't Want Windows In Munich (techrepublic.com)

Posted by msmash on from the good-call dept.

Reader sqorbit writes: Munich spent a lot of time (9 years) and a lot of money in shifting some 15,000 staff to a Linux-based OS. The plan now is to move to Windows 10 by 2021. Munich's Green Party is citing the WannaCry virus as a valid reason not to switch to Windows. "As with many of the biggest attacks, the computers that were mainly hit were running the Windows operating system," the Green Party said in a statement.

27 of 139 comments (clear)

  1. Are Doors still okay? by I'm+just+joshin · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sheesh, are they also anti-skylight?

    1. Re:Are Doors still okay? by gurps_npc · · Score: 2, Funny

      /sarcasm activated/

      It's the heat loss in winter. The green party insists on everything being as insulated as possible and you lose a lot of heat via the windows. So they want them all removed.

      I'm as environmentally progressive as the next guy, but this is taking it too far. ;Q

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  2. They need to make a business case by js3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They were already planning on switching back to windows because something wasn't working with linux/open source. They should try to address that problem instead and make a case for staying with linux instead of fear mongering.

    --
    did you forget to take your meds?
    1. Re:They need to make a business case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      " something wasn't working with linux/open source" that something was some higher ups didn't like the non-windows(TM) interface after MS lobbyists told them they don't like the non-windows interface. Fear mongering is the only choice left.

    2. Re:They need to make a business case by Hentes · · Score: 2

      Security may not be relevant from a "business perspective", but that doesn't make it any less important.

  3. What is their issue? by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I switched to CentOS (with Mate) on the desktop several years ago. I have windows on dual boot. I haven't booted into Windows for nearly year. I don't miss windows for anything. When I upgraded from CentOS 6 to CentOS 7 it literally only took me about 2 hours to upgrade and install my toolchain and have backups working. With Windows this would have taken an entire day. I smirk at my associates who worry about Ransomware or just cruft slowing chocking their desktops/laptops.

      However my use case may be different than others.

    1. Re:What is their issue? by burki · · Score: 5, Interesting

      For those of you who understand German I highly recommend:
      http://www.br.de/radio/b5-aktu...
      It is a 15 minutes talk with one of the members of the city parliament responsible for this decision.

      I'm not saying that the decision to switch back to Windows is the right one, but you get a good feeling for the pain they are feeling. She mentions computers taking twenty minutes to start in the beginning of the day, they have 2'000 different applications in the city for specific tasks, some of them working only on a single versions of a web browsers. Their Linux clients exists in a variety of configurations, some with LibreOffice, others with OpenOffice. And while they managed to switch 70% of clients to Linux, they kept 30% of there machines on various versions of Windows going back to XP in order to cope with domain specific solutions.

      And then she observes that there was a very active generation of IT technicians 10 years ago eager to make a switch to Linux. But the younger people these days neither care too much about Windows or Linux; they are much more interested (and knowledgeable) in coding Android apps. So they can't fill the position for admins with good knowledge of Linux desktops but have to hire independent contractors costing â 1'500 a day (instead of â 4'500 per months if they were regular city employees). To sum it up, they have a variety of IT issues many of them probably typical for any large city that can't pay the salaries good staff would expect in a booming and relatively expensive city like Munich. And all of you pointing out that they would have similar issues with an aging Windows environment as well are probably spot on. But taking into consideration that being the only bigger city with a non-Microsoft client infrastructure in the area certainly doesn't make it easier getting experienced staff from other communities with first hand experience in a comparable environment, their wish of getting closer to the main stream in government ID seems understandable.

    2. Re:What is their issue? by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 2

      She mentions computers taking twenty minutes to start in the beginning of the day

      Thanks for that.

      I had to laugh at this one as I have a Windows "Enterprise" computer on the my desktop at work and it really does take 20 minutes from bootup to being able to use it. I look at the task manager and lordy the stuff they install is simply mind boggling.

      The only valid issue I can see from this is the cost and availability of admin support. As you pointed out all the other issues are prevalent in spades in a Windows only environment.

    3. Re:What is their issue? by nine-times · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Thank you for posting. The first question about something like this should be "what problem are they trying to solve?" and your post gives some idea of the answer to that.

      Having looked at this list, it doesn't seem like the problems they're experiencing are caused by using Linux. If their computers take 20 minutes to boot, there must be something wrong with their computers. If the complaint is that some people are using OpenOffice and some are using LibreOffice, that has nothing to do with the OS whatsoever. Either way, it's pretty easy to fix both of those at once: Buy new computers, and install the same office suite on all of them.

      If the problem is that they have web applications that only work in a specific version of a specific web browser, that's not really a problem with their OS. If it only works on IE 6, then you might need to stick with an old version of Windows in order to use it, but migrating to Windows 10 isn't going to help. The real solution is to develop a new, modern web application (or at least overhaul the old one's front end) so that it's more browser-agnostic.

      If the problem is that your IT people are all Android developers, then once again, I don't know how switching to Windows helps. Maybe the best solution would be to wait for Google to come out with their Android/ChromeOS hybrid and switch to that instead of one of the current Linux desktop distros.

      The only issue that you've raised that seems like it might point you in the direction of Windows is, "they can't fill the position for admins with good knowledge of Linux desktops". It is possible that it's easier to find cheap Windows support than cheap Linux support. On the other hand, if the common computer problems are caused by having extremely old/slow hardware, and having old legacy apps that require Windows XP, then I'm not sure Windows support staff is a very good investment. You're going to hire a bunch of additional people and pay for a large-scale migration, only to find that you still have all the same problems.

      Maybe there's more to it, and I'd be interested to know the details. However, it kind of sounds like someone in charge is under a mistaken impression that running Windows will fix problems that have nothing to do with the desktop OS.

    4. Re:What is their issue? by jfdavis668 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And I bet you don't spend most of your day in word processing and spreadsheet programs. If you do, you will find Windows far more useful than any Linux distro.

    5. Re:What is their issue? by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 2

      Yeah, it sounds like part of their problem is that IT just isn't managing their desktops very well. That said, there are a lot of good tools available for managing windows desktops, I'm not sure what's available in the Linux world. But Munich is pretty awesome, you'd think Linux admins would jump at a chance to work there. Even if they're relatively rare, they've got all of Europe to recruit from.

      --
      Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
    6. Re:What is their issue? by Bert64 · · Score: 2

      Competent admin support for windows is as rare and expensive as linux admin support, the difference is that there is a lot lower availability of cheap and incompetent support staff (generally because such inexperienced people have never even heard of linux).
      But the end result of using such cheap staff is not good, you will end up with severe security and stability problems.

      --
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  4. Re:Who cares? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

    Anti-GMO people are roughly-equivalent to anti-vaxxers, but with a different set of shit they don't understand at all yet about which formed powerful opinions.

    --
    Support my political activism on Patreon.
  5. 2021 by Train0987 · · Score: 2

    Crap, I thought for sure 2021 was going to be the Year of Linux Desktop! they spent 8 years preparing for it to!

  6. For all the wrong reasons by iampiti · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the green party is anything like similar parties here in Spain you'd expect them to be very nitpicky about what they use and to care about freedoms and such.
    So I've been really disappointed that the reasons they give to stay in Linux is "WannaCry", i.e. Virus and the like.
    I'd hope such a party would know and care about Windows 10's telemetry, publicity and user tracking. If even they don't know or care means that 99'9% of people don't and so Microsoft has no reason to change and then probably Windows will get worse and worse.
    It's a pity because i quite liked Windows until 7 and I'm unlikely to ever be able to get completely away from it.

    1. Re:For all the wrong reasons by gosand · · Score: 2

      Hmmm, I have to wonder about Windows telemetry in the Enterprise environment.

      I use it at work, and I was thinking that surely there must be a way for them to disable it... my company doesn't want MS to be able to see into our company.
      Then I wondered if perhaps MS is selling the view into that telemetry back to the company, so THEY could see what their users are doing.

      I haven't done any kind of digging to see if this has been brought up or discussed by anyone else, but it sure seems plausible to me.

      --

      My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

    2. Re:For all the wrong reasons by TeknoHog · · Score: 2

      I'd hope such a party would know and care about Windows 10's telemetry, publicity and user tracking. If even they don't know or care means that 99'9% of people don't and so Microsoft has no reason to change and then probably Windows will get worse and worse.

      It seems that the Pirate Party is the only one that knows and cares about such issues. My city council recently welcomed its first Pirate members, and they promptly took up the issue of public documents being distributed in proprietary formats. E.g. Android users could not open the documents so far, so it was something that concerned people beyond the hardcore Linux geeks.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  7. Re:I agree with the Green Party by jfdavis668 · · Score: 2

    No, their problem is not being able to hire people who can maintain Linux. So they wouldn't be able to "super easy to switch distros", since they don't have people who can install distros. If you can hire Windows admins, they can maintain the systems with the latest patches and avoid most of the common attack routes used to attack Windows.

  8. Hardware support by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 3, Informative

    Basically, they're finding there's a lag between new hardware being released and the OS getting updates to support it, and it's a huge PIA for support staff.

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  9. Re:I agree with the Green Party by OrangeTide · · Score: 2

    This sounds like a business opportunity to provide a school for training young Germans that want to work in the government's IT.

    I'm sure there are plenty of Bulgarian, Romanian, and Hungarian people who would like an Linux IT job in Germany. Isn't one of the benefits of being part of the EU the opportunities available to foreign workers?

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  10. Green Party & FOSS by unixisc · · Score: 2

    I never agree w/ the Green Party (anywhere), but on this one, finally they've found something I can agree w/ them on. Since Munich has already spent a ton of cash converting to their own Linux distro, it would be a sheer waste of person-hours to go back to Windows. Since they have something that is totally in their control

    As far as the documents go, would it be very difficult for Microsoft to do a Linux version of Office 365 (they could monetize it that way) client, given that they already have a version for Android? I know, Android has that UI that almost totally masks the Linux underpinnings, but Microsoft could do a client for Linux (and BSD) that would run Office 365, and run the OS off Azure. That way, they can have a steady stream of cash, instead of being caught up in trying to forcibly upgrade people's OSs.

    I myself successfully use this TrueOS computer for most of my computing, which is sending emails & browsing the internet. I do have a separate Windows laptop, which I use if I need to edit any Word documents, or if I need to play my Steam games. Once I can get the latter on this TrueOS box, I'll hardly need even that.

  11. Re:I agree with the Green Party by ckatko · · Score: 2

    So basically, they're unable to hire anyone who knows how to use Google?

    Because that's how I've learned:
      - C#
      - Windows Administration
      - Javascript/jQuery
      - Linux
      - Linux Administration
      - Linux specific APIs

    All in the last three years too. Why? Because my boss said "Go fix this problem." And my answer couldn't be "I don't know." It had to be "I'll figure it out."

    Seriously. What kind of world does everyone else live in where a lack of knowledge is an excuse for failure?

  12. What does any government need MS Windows for? by evolutionary · · Score: 2

    Okay, if one is in the medical profession and you are bound by proprietary drivers (probably outdated), or in some other professional with similar hardware lockins (Construction, Automobile/Farming equipment Computer diagnostics/calibration), or POSSIBLY hearing aid equipment interfaces/drivers (again outdated typically), you don't need MS Windows (feel free to add professional category subject to hardware lock-in). 95% of all tools are web based via Intranet or Internet. Linux does all the word processing, email, messaging, web surfing and even video chat options you need. LibreOffice's only serious weakness is on complex tables. But since MS and Google are pushing web based subscription, that may not even matter a lot unless you work with confidential data requiring local access only use + complex excel tables. I've been seeing/helping people convert to Mint Linux and Debian for years with no complaints. Gamers may complain about not having the full selection of games, but in government that is not a positive factor I think. Also, Windows 10 is NOT immune to WannaCry. you can patch it, but, given MS's recent history with buggy (or misleading) patches you can't really rely on it. Plus you can be sure others are adapting it to new "patched" Windows 10 anyway. Also will Munich get a "special" version of Windows 10 like China did to prevent government secrets going to the USA? (And the government agencies within) https://thenextweb.com/microso... I think most non-USA governments, as well as business/agencies that have confidential information in non-USA location will have to make a hard choice to avoid violating their basic oaths/ethics requirements.

    --
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein
  13. Re:Why would anyone *choose* Windows? by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here are some answers. They may not be stellar ones, but they are factors.

    1. Employee Hiring: Everyone knows windows, most don't know Linux. Sure using Linux for work isn't that big of a deal, but it is just one more thing to train on.
    2. Third party software: Most organizations thinking buy not build is the solution. Most of the software that you can buy is for windows.
    3. Compatibility: 99% compatible means 3 days a year there is a problem.
    4. Merging with other locations: Sure you may be on Linux but chances are the organization that you are merging with isn't
    5. Big Vendor relationship: If you are a big enough organization. Your relationship with Microsoft is far more dynamic than here is the CD and install it. Microsoft will often work with you to make sure their product will work with your environment.
    6. Hardware: Oh that new set of laptops has an incompatible network chip. And there is no Linux driver. You could make sure you get the linux approved system, but either it is out of date, or more expensive, just because that one necessary compatibility component.
    7. Too many exceptions: If you are a Linux shop, you normally need a few windows boxes for those exceptions where you need it. There just may be too many people who need Windows as an exception.
    8. Too configurable: Linux is often too configurable for its own good, deploying it in an organization will often get the organizations group think settings. Often being bad for everyone. Windows is you get what you get, and followed "Best Practices" which bosses think they like.
    9. Silly names: Much of linux software has silly fun and unprofessional names. It just may not fit in the organizations culture.
    10. That one problem that could had been easy in windows: When you use the exception vs what is common. You are under the gun to make sure everything is perfect. That one problem could get you. "No one got fired for choosing IBM" problem. You can buy a POS, but just as long as you are suffering with everyone else you are fine.
     

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  14. Re:Not a valid reason by Bert64 · · Score: 2

    No but diversity is a good defence...
    If everyone runs the same thing then everyone has the same vulnerabilities, if there are a variety of different systems out there it becomes much harder to attack.

    --
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  15. Re:I don't care either way... by silverkniveshotmail. · · Score: 2

    Releasing Office for Linux would certainly make them money but it would remove one of the biggest obstacles for companies switching to Linux so I can't see them doing it.

  16. Re:Why would anyone *choose* Windows? by Vapula · · Score: 2

    1) Many people stuck to older Windows/Office versions. MS Windows 7 is still very popular for example.
    2) Most of the software needed do already exists under Linux... We are talking about the city of munich, most of the work is done on Office tools where you've LibreOffice/Apache OpenOffice for example
    3) Windows and compatibility is a joke... Unsupported (older) hardware, older application which stop running, ... Hardware compatibility of Linux is better and better. When I installed my laptop, Windows required many 3rd party drivers that I had to download. Linux recognized all the hardware (including webcam) without any additionnal drivers.
    4) It's a City administration, not a "company" that could merge with another.
    5) If there are more issues (vulnerabilities, bugs, ...) from the start, it don't help much.
    6) when is the last time that you installed a decent linux distribution on a laptop ?
    7) City administration mostly need an Office suite... not many exception...
    8) The status BEFORE the linux migration was a very strong fragmentation while staying in the MS Windows world... Here, the IT department has pushed the same configuration to everyone
    9) Microsoft PowerPoint ??? Microsoft Excel ??? Microsoft Access ??? Microsoft Outlook ??? aren't these silly names ??? The names are not related in any way to the task done... In that regard, LibreOffice Calc is less silly than Microsoft Excel, LibreOffice Base than Microsoft Access...

    Most of your points were missing the point... and are the usual Microsoft bullshit... Fact is that more and more administration will eventually switch to linux and that Microsoft is trying to bribe them to avoid that... It's Microsoft's biggest Nightmare as if administrations switch successfully, it'll show the route for companies and it'd be the end of it's monopoly... He'd have to start playing nice with other OS, to stop it's underhanded tactics and the fact that it's an inferior and more expensive choice will become more and more obvious.