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Volvo Says It Will Only Make Electric and Hybrid Cars Starting in 2019 (npr.org)
Volvo has announced that starting in 2019, all of the new models it produces will be electric or hybrid. From a report: "This announcement marks the end of the solely combustion engine-powered car," said Hakan Samuelsson, Volvo president and chief executive, in a statement. "Volvo Cars has stated that it plans to have sold a total of 1 million electrified cars by 2025. When we said it we meant it. This is how we are going to do it." The move makes Volvo the first traditional automaker to set a date to phase out cars powered only by internal combustion engines, Reuters reports. The company said it will launch five fully electric cars between 2019 and 2021. Three of these will be Volvos, and two will be sold under the company's Polestar "electrified performance brand."
Somewhere in the world right now, Jeremy Clarkson is banging his head against a dashboard.
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
Failed automaker puts final nail in their coffin.
sorry
> Polestar "electrified performance brand."
Uhhh, should we tell them that's not a great brand name in north america?
Volvo now has every incentive to make quicker progress on hybrid engines and electric motors than their otherwise ICE-involved competitors might. Of course, it may just be their board's latest brain fart as interpreted by their CEO, too. Time will tell. All I know is that it's a gutsy move.
That is all.
> I wasn't going to buy one of those pieces of crap, anyway
You took time out of your day to tell us what you don't do so you could complain about it.
Wow.
All automakers are going to more or less follow suit soon enough. The benefits of a mild hybrid system far outweigh the essentially nonexistent drawbacks, and if you actually convert the whole car to 48V, then there really are no drawbacks.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
"... and now they won't even make the type of car that I would consider buying."
Sounds like the bus and a lot of walking is in your future.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
What is the problem about having a hybrid car?
Do you just like the idea of polluting the environment more and paying more for Gasoline every month?
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
On this note, I just mentioned to one of my lezzie gfs this article. I don't know if she was joking, but she said she'd have to switch to Subaru. She and her mate (her choice of words) both drive Volvos.
Unintended consequences?
Says someone who obviously wasn't around CA in the '70s. Thing is, "consumers" also want air they can breath, and water they can drink....
Sulfates and other pollutants are directly related to acidification of rainfall and as such our streams, rivers, lakes, and groundwater; directly contribute to asthma and lung cancer and other health related issues; and, of course, to our carbon footprint.
And, like coal, if an older technology can no longer do its job from both an economic and environmental standpoint, then, like horses and steam engines, it's time for it to go.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Regarding Subaru: "In an interview published Sunday by Bloomberg, the company's CEO Yasuyuki Yoshinaga said that it plans to make all-electric versions of existing models rather than develop new vehicle lines for the new powertrains."
Tesla is selling the S and X and soon the M3. Fischer is pushing forward. Chevrolet is selling the Volt and Bolt. Toyota, of course, is selling the Prius Prime PHEV plus several other hybrids. Honda has the Clarity plus hybrids. Nissan Leaf. BMW is selling the i3 and teasing the i8. Kia Soul EV and Niro. Fiat 500e. Hyundai Ioniq.
Tell your gf that they're coming, like it or not.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
All automobile manufacturers project the cost to buy a fossil fuel vehicle will be more than for an all electric vehicle starting next model year.
(yes, I invest in automobile firms, sorry if you never read the internal news)
Adapt. Nobody cares for your failed fossil fuel religion.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
"So - the govt is pressuring the markets, not the consumers"
Hey, sometimes its necessary. I think someone was relating a story in an interview a while back (Bill Nye maybe) about how when he was younger his family rented a cabin somewhere, all of the homes in the area had to keep a pan of gasoline/turpentine at their doors to clean their feet because the oil slick on the beach from tankers purging their tanks. I'm sure that the tanker companies were fine with dumping excess crude oil into the ocean as it saved them and their customers money, it also was one heck of a headache for the people living anywhere near the logistics chain and was wreaking havoc on the environment.
The worlds fastest supercar is fully electric. All modern supercars use electric turbines, which accelerate from a standing start and recover energy on braking and turns faster than fossil fuel only cars do.
Adapt. It's 2017, not 1967.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
You realize that there are Prius autos out there that are hitting 500,000 miles on their original batteries, yes? Or that electrics have about 2,000 fewer parts to wear out and break as opposed to ICEs?
And I just saw an article recently that ran down the top 20 most common repairs needed by modern ICE-powered cars... and none of them apply to EVs.
If you're wanting reliability, a simple electric motor beats an ICE hands down, and twice on Sunday.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
It seems you're confusing "hybrids" and "plug-in hybrids". Hybrids do not plug in at all.
Out of curiosity, what sort of "getting away to the mountains" route are you concerned about?
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
From the Volvo PR: "This means that there will in future be no Volvo cars without an electric motor, as pure ICE cars are gradually phased out and replaced by ICE cars that are enhanced with electrified options."
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
I wasn't going to buy one of those pieces of crap, anyway, and now they won't even make the type of car that I would consider buying.
That's exactly why this is the right move for the kind of customer that Volvo is pursuing. Whether pursuing that kind of customer is a good idea or not is another issue. As far as I can tell, it's the middle class, and the middle class is shrinking. At least they finally figured out that they have to make their cars tall if they want to sell them.
Volvo is already selling a highly fancy-pants twincharged (super+turbo) engine with all the bells and whistles. They're fairly well-committed to taking the high-tech solution. But what do you have against hybrids? The Germans and the Koreans alike are now using it to make cars better first, and more efficient second. They still achieve significant efficiency gains, while also improving performance — sometimes by quite a lot, because the electric motor ideally complements the gasoline engine. The electric motor makes peak torque near stall, while the gasoline engine makes it much higher, especially if it is not turbocharged.
But let's say you have a tiny little engine, a big but cheap turbo, and a 48 volt lithium ion mild hybrid system. Your electric motor fills in down low to make up for the lack of torque in the engine, and for the long spool-up time on the turbocharger. The turbo comes on in the mid-range and continues to let the itty bitty engine make more power well into the high rpm/load range, as the electric motor fades away. How can that be a bad thing? The only reason you might [reasonably] complain is if it's mated to a CVT, but you can as easily use a DCT and get almost the same efficiency. Because you're doing torque fill with the electric motor, the clutches in the DCT will last essentially forever.
Automakers have to achieve mileage improvements both in specific segments, and also across their range. For the big guys who make vehicles in multiple segments, there's low-hanging fruit that they're already picking in weight reduction, Ford with Aluminum and GM with ultra high-strength steel. Dodge doesn't sell anywhere near as many pickups, and I'm not sure if FCA even has a plan there. For someone like Volvo, who only sells cars and unrelated heavy trucks into the USA, they have to literally get those mileage improvements across their range — that is, in all of their vehicles.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
2017 Chevy Corvette 0-60 in 3.6 sec. 1/4 mile in 12.3 sec. 296 mile range.
2017 Tesla model S (sedan): 0-60 in 2.28 sec. 1/4 mile in 10.5 sec. 310 mile range.
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Hopefully it's going to work for them. I'm a bit surprised they have (or are projected to have) that much market demand but good on them!
I'd love to have an electric SUV, once they shave a zero off the pricetag. That'll be a bit.
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
Yes.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Damn that electric card! ;)
Meanwhile, in the real world, multiple studies have reached the same conclusion: on the US's current grid, a complete switchover to EVs:
* PM increases.
* You would see more SOx, except that grid operators are largely capped; in order to sell more power, they have to improve their sulfur scrubbing (and it's well worth them in order to sell more power). In short there's little change.
* NOx is relatively unchanged.
* VOCs go way down
* CO goes way down
* CO2 gets about a 30% reduction
Also:
* All regions of the US grid have enough generation capacity for a complete EV switchover with no new construciton needed except for the hydro-rich Pacific Northwest.
* Local grids however need to be upgraded in many places.
* That said, nobody is talking about a magic fairy coming along and converting all cars to EVs overnight; even the most rushed production pace would be far slower than the pace of grid maintenance and upgrades.
Lastly:
* Gasoline is getting dirtier, as producers increasingly switch to deeper reservoirs, bitumen, tight oil, deepwater crude, etc, which involve more emissions in their production.
* Electricity is getting cleaner, and surprisingly fast, with most new power being gas, wind, and increasingly, solar.
* EVs continue to get cleaner over time as the grid does.
On to your other claims:
No, they don't. The two rarest elements involved in lithium ion batteries are lithium and cobalt, which rank only after nitrogen in Earth's crustal abundance. Their raw material prices of 1-2 dozen dollars per kilogram give a good clue that they're not exactly hard to come by. Li-ion batteries don't even use all that much lithium anyway. By contrast, while gasoline cars don't use a tremendous amount of it, they require platinum or other metals in their catalytic converters and some times spark plugs, which most definitely are rare.
Most cobalt is not directly mined. It's a byproduct of mining the copper used for things like powering the computer you're typing on. Lithium is rarely "strip mined"; it's one of the most environmentally-friendly means of production you can get. It involves pumping brine from under the surface of a playa and drying it in the sun on the surface. Most such playas flood annually, wiping out the evidence that the mine ever was there.
(Note that while all li-ion batteries use lithium, not all use cobalt. Some for example, use iron phosphate, spinels, etc.)
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
Oh, I forgot to mention: grid emissions are largely emitted in less densely populated areas, at altitude. Vehicle emissions are largely emitted at street level, predominantly in more densely populated areas. This amplifies the health effects significantly, particularly for short-lived pollutants.
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
That and subsidized home high voltage charger installation. You want this technology adopted quicker? Give people an incentive rather than putting roadblocks in their way.
Is this an announcement that Volvo is getting out of the heavy truck market? They make some of the best equipment in that market.
That seems a bit of an overreaction.
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
Volvo is a high-end, low-volume manufacturer. Worldwide sales are about half a million out of total worldwide sales of nearly 90 million.
Whether this is a smart move in their chosen market segment remains to be seen. But it's not going to noticeably move the needle in the overall market.
I hope you realize your parents aren't going to drive you around forever.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
You're lying to yourself, but the real question is, why?
So, like, what's the time it takes each car to go 800 miles?
My car is 11 years old and there are no design constraints in it preventing me from hoping it will last five more years without major expenses. You can't say that about a hybrid or an electric. It WILL need an expensive new battery long before it is 16 years old.
Hmm,
How many times did you have to do an Oil/Filter/Spark Plug etc. Change. How much GAS cost for 100KMs vs. Cost of Electricity to charge it for 100KM. So on and so forth.
I don't foresee the batteries as a long term issue. What will eventually happen, once there are enough EVs on the road, you will see batteries becomming a standard and battery stations will start cropping up.
Essentially Gas stations will start carrying these standard batteries, you will pay monthly/yearly fee for the service. Once you are running low, you pull into these battery stations and someone or robotically, your battery will be replaced with a fully charged one. You will be in/out in less than 5 minutes. Then you will never have to worry about old battery, cause the cost of maintaining the battery will be handled by the battery charging station. Obviously they will work out a metric for the cost of the doing that, add 1000% profit and then pass over the bill to you. Even at that price, you will be happy cause it is still cheaper than GAS. Even more competition will drive the cost down.
Needless to say, Electricity manufacturers will be the new overlords.
I am at loss with words...
Le mans is endurance racing. So, you like your endurance Corvette, while he likes quick Tesla.
I remember when I was a kid, growing up in Miami. We would go to the unlimited hydroplane races at Marine Stadium on Key Biscayne. Back then, all the Unlimited Hydro's were powered by Rolls Royce Merlin engines. Yea, surplus engines from P-51's and Spitfires. There was/is nothing like the sound of that Merlin engine screaming by. If you've never heard it, I can't explain it. Fast forward a few years into the future, and I attend the Hydro races in Detroit, and all the unlimited Hydro's are using jet engines. The go by and it's just a "whoosh" sound. All the fun and excitement were gone. Last Hydro race I ever went to. Or take a dragster or funny car burning Nitro, that sound, that smell. Yea, the electrics and jet powered race vehicles may be faster, but they're just boring. This may sound silly, but soon there will be a generation that never knows the sound of a tightly tuned internal combustion engine on a Formula 1 or even a Ducati. We won't even get behind the wheel, we will just whoosh along in boring electric vehicles. I think Jeff Beck said about self driving cars, who the hell would want that. What's the fun in that. Hell, I even miss the sound of a raspy old Bultaco, Husky or CZ 2-Stroke. I'll go back to yelling at the clouds now.
That number is also 0 for the Corvette. What's your point again here?
The summary as it stands does not say what it means to say. Why is it so hard to position the word "only" in the right place in a sentence?
There is only one pure EV on the market legally allowed to tow a trailer: Tesla Model X. Most other cars are not allowed to because they overheat the battery (they would handle lower speeds/durations just fine but need to handle hours in highway speeds).
Some Hybrids (the ones with an ICE powering the drive train) may tow though.
Can you list which electric car/truck has the ability to fit 4 kids and hall a 4,000lb trailer?
You didn't list the ages / car seat needs, but a quick google search shows the Tesla Model X has 5, 6, and 7 seat configurations and has a 5,000lb tow rating.
2017 Tesla Model S 0-60 in 5.0, 1/4 mile in 13.6.
Numbers quoted by above poster are for P100D variant (modified), a car which starts at $135,000.
2017 Corvette starts at $55,000.
Yes, if you have limitless money, electric cars are pretty cool.
Hybrids bring one advantage to the table, especially as congestion gets worse: At idle, the IC engine can be turned off so the vehicle takes zero power, other than to handle the HVAC and electronics. This means less pollution overall.
Of course, a hybrid with an inverter is useful if one has a house or condo and power goes out. It is a lot quieter and likely more fuel efficient than a generator.
Nissan Leaf batteries have been proven over 200k miles, and that's the old chemistry. Some Tesla cars have double that, again with no issues.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Some people prefer to buy fast cars (like my corvette.) Until we can expect the same performance and range, there will always be a market for internet combustion engines.
No problem, as long as you pay for the very high pollution cost associated with your choice.
Currently, you do not. The market for internal combustion engines will be much smaller when the pollution cost is not externalized to the rest of the world.
Must be an American car company paid shill...
How many times with US car companies dig in and fight adequate safety restraints, emissions compliance, fuel efficiency, computer security, etc... and then loose ever-larger segments of the market while competitors rush and and take their customers away?
The big push right now is to get investors to short Tesla stock and destroy the company before the public realizes that electric cars are the future... probably will not work now that China-owned Volvo is joining the all-electric faction
Gas is getting cheaper and cheaper....especially as oil prices drop per barrel.
Hell, gas is less than $1.99/gallon in most of the US today...its cheap to drive a IC car these days.
Why are you and others harping on gasoline costs, when they have been dropping for years now?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
"2017 Tesla Model S 0-60 in 5.0, 1/4 mile in 13.6."
Your numbers are out of date. Tesla just updated the car and even the base Model S 75 without dual motors can now hit 60 in 4.3 seconds and costs $69,500 but you also get a $7500 tax credit bringing it down to $62,000. For that you get a car that needs very little servicing and you can get free supercharging for the life of the car with a referral. I know which one I would prefer.
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
So the Tesla only has to sit idle during the 'speed competition' for two or maybe three hours, whereas the 'vette has three or maybe four 5 minute refueling stops.
You could also note that
1. Internal Combustion Engines in cars get about 20% thermal efficiency, while the efficiency of thermal steam turbines are gt 60%
2. Coal plants are getting phased out for gas and solar, so their argument is diminishing even as we quibble
All of this BS being thrown by the incumbent US car makers is solely to support their sunk costs in manufacturing equipment for ICE's, and has nothing to do with the value of what people are purchasing
Tell China that.
It's 2017, not 2007.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I'm planning to buy a Leaf this fall, so I'm in favor of electric cars and I do think that they are the future. However, at this point, very few of them are profitable for the manufacturers. The CEO of Fiat told people not to buy the 500e, the Soul EV is very limited in availability. Just last month the Leaf was available with a $10k rebate. It seems like GM loses ~$7k on each Bolt right now. Tesla seems like one of the few which would be making money if they weren't reinvesting.
One problem with the rapid advances in batteries (which are usually ~50% of the cost) is that older EVs lose their value horrifically. Even after you account for the tax credits, an older Leaf for example (which might have only a 50 mile usable range at this point) is around $5-6k. I expect that when the new Teslas start rolling out that will drop even more. But at some point, probably not to long from now, the battery prices will mean that the cost for a reasonable range will be competitive with ICEs. But if you think that time is right now, I think you're mistaken.
I'm not the OP, but I regularly (3 or more times a year) "get away to the mountains" by driving 250 miles with 4-6 people plus skis, an elevation change of ~5k feet, and often 6 inches of fresh snow on the road when I'm nearing the resort. Maybe a Model X would let me do that, but I think I'll keep an ICE for that type of stuff for a while. But 95% of my driving is not that, and we have 3 drivers in the house, so I'll be getting an electric car soon.
The first time you read the title, it seems like Volvo will only sell electric cars in 2 years time and they will become another Tesla.
Then, if you pay attention, it says that starting 2019, all new models will have an electric engine in them. Yes, this includes mild hybrids, basically energy recovery systems where the electric engine only gives a boost, but it's too small to drive on electric power alone. And yes, they will keep producing the old models for a while.
This is good news, but by no means earth-shattering. I understand most of the European manufacturers will introduce mild hybrids across their range, due to very strict emission standards coming 2020. A PR coup for Volvo, for making public a decision that everyone in the industry will eventually take, and soon.
On this note, I just mentioned to one of my lezzie gfs this article. I don't know if she was joking, but she said she'd have to switch to Subaru. She and her mate (her choice of words) both drive Volvos.
Bullshit. You and she and I all know that she's going to switch to a tacoma with a camper shell.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Yeah, you're right. And everyone knows there is infinite, endless petroleum underground. Price of oil doesn't wildly fluctuate with political, economic, and butterfly flapping effects so whatever the price is now is what it will continue to be until the rapture, right?
Only I can judge you.
Thanks! Great info, wish I had mod points to give.
Only I can judge you.
Look pal, no one is going to come and take away your 1971 Maverick Grabber. You can drive that baby into the ground, or wrap it around a tree, whatever, no one cares. Eventually, it will go off the driveable list one way or another. Or gasoline will become so rare that it will be affordable only for wealthy douches or by special permit only. Parts will become harder and harder to get, if you can afford it you'll have to buy a few extra whole cars to keep as donors, etc.
So enjoy your thoughtless pursuits while you can, you are a dying breed. Lucky for the rest of us YOLO!
Only I can judge you.
You realize that there are Prius autos out there that are hitting 500,000 miles on their original batteries, yes? Or that electrics have about 2,000 fewer parts to wear out and break as opposed to ICEs?
And I just saw an article recently that ran down the top 20 most common repairs needed by modern ICE-powered cars... and none of them apply to EVs.
If you're wanting reliability, a simple electric motor beats an ICE hands down, and twice on Sunday.
Agreed on the batteries. People still act as if Hybrid technology is so new as to not be proven yet. The Prius has been available in North America and Europe since 2000. Seventeen years. If there was a massive problem with premature battery failure we'd have heard about it by now. It's no more statistically significant than major powertrain issues on an ICE vehicle.
On repairs, in my experience, a lot of repairs done to ICE cars could easily be applicable to Hybrid or Electric cars. Tires still wear out, tierod ends, shocks still fail, body panels will still corrode in the saltbelt. I will agree on scheduled maintenance (oil change, brakes, etc), but a lot of the same parts could breakdown. Major powertrain problems aren't that common in ICE vehicles.
Don't know which Corvette you have but Teslas are faster than your Corvette.
Fastest Corvette is 3.8 0-60
Fastest Tesla is 3..2
Even my "non-performance" Tesla is 4.2 which is faster than most Corvettes.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
What will eventually happen, once there are enough EVs on the road, you will see batteries becomming a standard and battery stations will start cropping up.
Essentially Gas stations will start carrying these standard batteries, you will pay monthly/yearly fee for the service. Once you are running low, you pull into these battery stations and someone or robotically, your battery will be replaced with a fully charged one.
The problem is battery packs in electric cars are normally designed to maximize dimensions of the car model since they struggle to get the range they get. Someone (Tesla? Nissan?) tried swappable battery packs, but I think they withdrew from the market.
What may be doable is an addon. For normal driving the built-in batteries are sufficient. For extended range rent either a standard format swappable battery pack, or an ICE Genset that mounts on the roof, trunk, or in a trailer.
Energy cost is precisely the issue. Energy in oil production almost always corresponds directly to CO2 emissions.
No, but as I mentioned, price does. And neither lithium carbonate nor cobalt oxide (aka the raw materials) are particularly expensive. Furthermore, the person said "rare", which does mean abundance.
Dominate overwhelmingly at present (although pegmatites might make a comeback due to booming demand). No, it's not particularly energy intensive, and I'm going to dispute the statement that the evaporation ponds stick around through flood (unless you have something to back that up); production cost reports regularly note that the annual loss of the evaporation ponds makes flooding salars more expensive to produce from (but they represent some of the largest and richest resources). They're made of salt. You don't flood something made of salt, with water, and then have it stick around.
The GP was trying to make the produditon of lithium sound like some scar-gouging strip mine. Here's what it actually looks like. It's hard to think of a means of mining that has less impact on the landscape.
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
The real obstacles are needing to increase total electric generation capacity as you slowly replace oil. . .
Electrical utilities have an issue of trying to balance out peak demand vs supply. Demand usually goes up and down during the day, with peaks early in the morning and at dinner time, and lows overnight. On the supply side large nuke plants can't spool up and down quickly, and the wind may blow windmills at random. Currently utilities use concepts such as interruptable industrial customers that can be shutdown if the utility needs the capacity. There is also customers charged time of day billing. With a large install base of electric cars, imagine the utility being able to control charge rates to ensure an even supply-demand balance. If you want a rapid charge, you can pay a premium. If you don't care when between now and 8:00AM tomorrow your car gets charged, you get a discount.
I was asking the OP, not a general "can anyone present an example (without any route specifics that could be crossreferenced with charger locations) which might be difficult for some of the shorter-range Teslas".
The only detail you actually gave of utility concerning your route is the altitude change. A net gain in 5000 feet corresponds to roughly 50km (31mi) of range loss for a Model S. If you're talking a heavier vehicle, it'd be more. I have no clue what percentage of your "250 miles" is covered in snow (all 250 miles???), so I can't comment on how that changes the total trip's range; I can't comment on how the slopes you take will affect your efficiency because I don't know your route; I can't comment on charging opportunities because I don't know your route; etc.
When one asks about a route, they're looking for... well, a route.
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
Of course, and it will outperform any petrol car on the market while doing so.
I don't know how far down the road you'll get, but you'll get there fast.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Someone had better tell toyota, they've been making them over a decade now! how the heck are they not bankrupt?
What on Earth do you think I was replying to? How do you expect me to estimate the ability of a vehicle to reach a destination without any clue what route they're talking about and what's along that route? Simply knowing the temperature (which, by the way, they didn't give - and I'm not a moron who doesn't know that "snow means cold") and "how many passengers" are in some undisclosed vehicle, is not nearly enough. The number of passengers is far less important than the type of vehicle (you're talking a small fractional change to rolling resistance, which in turn is not dominant at highway speeds). Temperature furthermore depends on the route profile, as it has an altitude correlation.
This is all meaningless without knowing the route. The thing that I specifically asked for (and have now done so three times). I can't even begin to determine how well an EV would do for their trip without that. Everything else can be rolled up into error bars.
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
Your electric motor fills in down low to make up for the lack of torque in the engine, and for the long spool-up time on the turbocharger.
Would not an electric driven supercharger fix the problem of spool up time for an exhaust driven turbocharger?
If you have an electric motor assisting the ICE after the transmission then does one need a dual clutch transmission for smooth shifting and constant torque to the wheels?
Thinking about this some I consider that a clutch is not even needed to switch gears if the engine and gearing can be synchronized. People do clutchless shifting all the time once they learn the proper way to do it, and not trash the transmission either. Get a computer control to match the electric motor, gear shifting, and engine throttle and I'd think you'd get a rocket on wheels and do it with pretty cheap hardware. An electric motor and a small (-ish) battery would give you great acceleration in stop and go traffic and then once the car is cruising the computer can switch the motor to generator mode and top off the battery. Put something like this in a heavy truck and a slug of a big rig will get a bit peppier and not annoy so many drivers stuck behind in traffic.
I like where you are going with this. I'm just thinking that there might be ways to improve on the idea.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
Use nuclear power and all this pollution goes away.
To the haters that think nuclear waste is an impossible problem to solve I counter with fourth generation reactors that don't produce waste like the old ones did. Far preferable to the waste produced with coal, solar, or wind.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
2017 Chevy Corvette 0-60 in 3.6 sec. 1/4 mile in 12.3 sec. 296 mile range. About USD 50,000
2017 Tesla model S (sedan): 0-60 in 2.28 sec. 1/4 mile in 10.5 sec. 310 mile range. About USD 100,000
Heck of a difference, but it looks like we are getting there. (Read this and weep, Jeremy Clarkson)
Cleaner air. Quieter. And what will we do with all those petrol station ("gas" stations)?
Of course the next step, moving away from private vehicle to shared ones will give an interesting opportunity for garage conversions - man cave? Gym? Model railway layout ... or maybe a space for yet more junk. Yeah, that.
"Cats like plain crisps"
I remember having a conversation about drilling in ANWR and the argument against it was that any wells started there today would not produce for 5 years, so it would do nothing for today's prices. Sure enough prices did drop, and about 5 years after that conversation prices spiked. Supply and demand bit us in the ass. If we had more supply then prices would not have spiked like that.
Sure would have been nice if we started drilling 10 years ago when I had that conversation.
The amount of oil in the ground may not be infinite but there is a lot of it. Estimates I've heard on how long we can keep pumping oil out of the ground has varied between 4 decades and 4 centuries. If we can split that down the middle and say we can go as we are now for 200 years then the oil in the ground may as well be infinite as far as anyone alive today is concerned.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
Relevance the Le Mans endurance race has to the real world: Zero.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
I can buy a second hand Leaf *from a dealer* for less than USD $13,000
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Not just a trailer, there was a hybrid (Bergepanzer Tiger) that was used to tow tiger tanks!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VK_4501_(P)
We are in the middle of a price war between the state owned Saudi oil company and the smaller US oil shale producers that the Saudis want to drive out of business. Once that's done they'll raise their prices again.
Only the oil that is easy enough to get to be worth getting is what matters.
Maybe you should think a little more about what the clutch actually is instead of confusing it with the pedal.
Would not an electric driven supercharger fix the problem of spool up time for an exhaust driven turbocharger?
It would, and there is nothing particularly wrong with them except that they are vastly more expensive than a turbocharger since they couple half of a turbocharger with an electric motor and a control system, and yet they are less efficient because they are driven by the electrical system instead of exhaust gas pressure whose energy would otherwise be wasted. Meanwhile, they wouldn't give you regen. If you want the mild hybrid system in there anyway to get regen and start-stop, then you might as well use it for torque fill.
One does not need the DCT for anything other than driving impressions. It has the fastest shifts. In full hybrid vehicles, one can use an automatic transmission and replace the torque converter with an electric motor, which is the approach Subaru has used thus far. But that requires a fairly sizable motor, and then you're going to want more battery. I'm focusing on mild hybrids here, because they are the low-hanging fruit. You basically get mild hybridization for free if you do 48V and stop-start, both of which are generally considered to be coming soon (tm) to basically all vehicles. The only additional component you need is the speed controller for the starter/generator. That's not literally free, nor does it have zero mass, but it's not very expensive and it doesn't weigh much.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Perhaps you could explain where I am mistaken?
I'll elaborate further. Consider a drive train with ICE -> transmission -> electric motor -> differential -> wheels. The transmission is capable of park, neutral, and at least two forward gear ratios.
Process to move car from standstill:
With ICE running and transmission in neutral the driver pushes accelerator and electric motor propels the vehicle. When transmission input to output ratio matches first gear shift engage first gear.
Up shift:
As car accelerates disengage gearing, throttle down ICE until input to output ratio matches next highest gear, increase motor power, engage higher gear, throttle up ICE to continue accelerating with ICE and motor sharing load.
Down shift:
As vehicle slows increase motor power and disengage gear, throttle up engine until input and output transmission ratios match next lower gear, engage lower gear, throttle up ICE to allow electric motor to reduce power.
Slow speed or come to stop:
Increase motor power to allow transmission to disengage, reduce motor power, when/if driver engages brakes then cut motor power.
Reverse:
Disengage transmission, use electric motor alone to propel vehicle. Once at a stop the process to park the vehicle is the transmission engages park (by engaging multiple ratio gearing to lock up transmission). Going forward from stop is as above.
The drive train is simplified, lighter, at the cost of more advanced transmission control computer connected to the ICE throttle. The accelerator would simply be a "volume control" where the user can indicate to the drive train computer the desired speed.
So, not much different than many other hybrids. Also, not much different than what one of my professors mention as his proposal for a hybrid vehicle.
How does this not work?
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
That number is also 0 for the Corvette. What's your point again here?
He's just upset that his Corvette doesn't qualify for racing in the Formula E
Not what you were describing above as you well know when you wrote " People do clutchless shifting all the time once they learn the proper way to do it".
What's with the utterly shameless desire to "win" all the time? It's just like when you were trying to tell people earlier that plutonium is some harmless thing that doesn't need to be treated with respect.
Exactly. Utilities have been salivating over the prospect of electric cars for quite some time; they've been early adopters, even when the tech wasn't up to snuff, and provided significant support for some of the early cross-country EV road trips. They don't just mean more sales, they mean more sales predominantly at times when demand is low, meaning they can use their existing infrastructure to make them more money. The fact that it's at worst a steady draw, and at best a draw which they can adjust within user-set bounds, makes it a dream come true. Fast charging is undesirable to them, but if 5% of charging is fast charging from people on road trips and the other 95% is predominantly overnight home charging, that's a tradeoff they'll gladly take.
Dear Diary...today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.
Couple of points:
- I'm not in the market for a Model X or any other car which costs more than ~$40k, so this is just an academic exercise
- The GP stated an interest in lighter cars a la Model 3
- I am interested in an electric car, but I will not be looking for one which can meet all my needs for a good few years
- My example was just one of many, any of which could potentially be a dealbreaker for someone. But if you'd like to see what would possibly work for the case I'm thinking of, here's the route I use to go skiing:
Start in DC, 20016, end at Snowshoe WV. Leaving on a Friday at 3pm to try to beat some of the traffic. In January the temperatures are worst case -10 degrees F or so by the time you get up there. Usually no snow to worry about until the last 1/3 of the drive, the bigger roads are plowed. But the last 15 miles (the steepest) are often really hairy, with 4 wheel drive SUVs who don't think snow tires are needed getting stuck. I can usually do that in 5 1/2 hours of actual driving, but I'll stop for an hour or so for dinner (usually in Harrisonburg VA) so that could be time spent charging.
I walk or bike to work, so I don't really drive a lot. Like I said, maybe a Model X could do it, but I don't want a $100k car. For these types of situations you can't just rent, since you won't get a roof rack or snow tires. In 10 years I expect it will be fairly easy to find something fully electric which can do this for a reasonable cost.
The oil worth getting is what I was referring to. That oil will last centuries. While seeking alternatives is always a good idea there should be no concern of running out of easy to get oil in anyone's lifetime.
We'll switch to something else when/if oil gets too expensive. That will happen when oil prices go up enough, alternatives get cheap enough, or they meet somewhere in the middle.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
I don't see the Tesla cars losing their value 'horrifically' by any means. In fact the 7+ year old roadsters sell for 60-70% of their original value which is astounding. Unlike some cars which claim to be an 'instant classic' these just about achieved that.
Nor do you hear any of the doomsday predictions about batteries dying coming true either. The biggest risk seems to be if you let a pack fully discharge, then it's 'bricked' and the car won't charge it anymore.
Maybe the Leaf is selling for peanuts, but it wasn't in the same class to begin with.
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
That's not entirely accurate.....this is perhaps a better analysis of the various metals used in the batteries:
https://electrek.co/2016/11/01...
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
What's with clueless people delivering lectures on topics they know very little about after an obvious fuckup? If you had been studying engineering in the late 1990s I could have been one of your "professors" that you are using as your appeal to authority.
The pedal is a different thing to the plate!
Just look it up! Take a look at the model T transmission and brake bands while you are at it since that is simple enough that it will add to your understanding of what you were trying to describe above with your shifted goalposts.
Too bad you're not in charge, you could tell all of those companies just what they're doing wrong....
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.