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Students Are Better Off Without a Laptop In the Classroom (scientificamerican.com)

Cindi May writes via Scientific American about new research that "suggests that laptops do not enhance classroom learning, and in fact students would be better off leaving their laptops in the dorm during class." From the report: Although computer use during class may create the illusion of enhanced engagement with course content, it more often reflects engagement with social media, YouTube videos, instant messaging, and other nonacademic content. This self-inflicted distraction comes at a cost, as students are spending up to one-third of valuable (and costly) class time zoned out, and the longer they are online the more their grades tend to suffer. To understand how students are using computers during class and the impact it has on learning, Susan Ravizza and colleagues took the unique approach of asking students to voluntarily login to a proxy server at the start of each class, with the understanding that their internet use (including the sites they visited) would be tracked. Participants were required to login for at least half of the 15 class periods, though they were not required to use the internet in any way once they logged in to the server. Researchers were able to track the internet use and academic performance of 84 students across the semester.

participants spent almost 40 minutes out of every 100-minute class period using the internet for nonacademic purposes, including social media, checking email, shopping, reading the news, chatting, watching videos, and playing games. This nonacademic use was negatively associated with final exam scores, such that students with higher use tended to score lower on the exam. Social media sites were the most-frequently visited sites during class, and importantly these sites, along with online video sites, proved to be the most disruptive with respect to academic outcomes. In contrast with their heavy nonacademic internet use, students spent less than 5 minutes on average using the internet for class-related purposes (e.g., accessing the syllabus, reviewing course-related slides or supplemental materials, searching for content related to the lecture). Given the relatively small amount of time students spent on academic internet use, it is not surprising that academic internet use was unrelated to course performance. Thus students who brought their laptops to class to view online course-related materials did not actually spend much time doing so, and furthermore showed no benefit of having access to those materials in class.

247 comments

  1. Well, duh! by El+Cubano · · Score: 4, Informative
    1. Re: Well, duh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Course related slides .... slides? What is this? The middle ages?

    2. Re:Well, duh! by avandesande · · Score: 1

      The turtlenecks thing made me ~shiver~

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    3. Re: Well, duh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

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  2. But what about my porn needs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    I like to jerk off during class, helps me relax. I need my laptop to help, else I'll be jacking it for 20 minutes, and that's just awkward.

    1. Re: But what about my porn needs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Good point, if a laptop can get masturbation times to 5-10 minutes instead of 20, it's well worth it. No one wants to sit next to someone masturbating for 20+ minutes.

    2. Re: But what about my porn needs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      you must be a real hit with the ladies

    3. Re: But what about my porn needs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You tell someone their connections are being watched and they keep logging into dumb shit. Is it any wonder those will be the students who score lower in exams? This proves nothing.

    4. Re:But what about my porn needs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like to jerk off during class, helps me relax. I need my laptop to help, else I'll be jacking it for 20 minutes, and that's just awkward.

      Speaking of pointless shit, let's hear it for the Slashdot crowd scoring this as "Interesting"...

    5. Re: But what about my porn needs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or at all.

  3. Don't know how to use technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My problem with education and technology is that they do not do enough to plan out how to use it. Its like Los Angeles district who after two years of giving every student a iPad. They reversed course and abandoned the platform. Sighting lack of curriculum, stolen iPad's and breakage as the reasons. This should have been apparent before embracing such a investment with a device that is not the most durable. In most cases education has tried to defend technology as a replacement for books and yet the costs do not measure out in the long run. It also has not proven to improve student performance or grades either. It's interesting that kids born into some of the most brightest technology creators, insist their own kids avoid too much technology in their education.

    1. Re:Don't know how to use technology by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Schools are sold on the potential of a device instead of the reality. Anything's possible with the right tool - but without a plan it's not going to make itself useful.

      One device per student is great when you already need technology for a task - but why should they have access to the device for the entire day?

    2. Re:Don't know how to use technology by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      In most cases education has tried to defend technology as a replacement for books and yet the costs do not measure out in the long run.

      I've yet to even hear people raving about ebooks in education:
      While novels work well in an ebook format, in my experience textbooks don't, as you want to flip back and forth sections or pages, write in the margins, etc. Although annotation tools are available, they still don't seem as good. I will grant that you can carry more books in less space, and search work better. This is best case scenario. Worst case scenario is DRM ridden ebooks that can't be resold, and the student has to use crappy software with lots of restrictions.

      For the latter problem there does seem to be a rise in popularity of "open" textbooks and learning content. First year calculus hasn't changed in decades, so there's no reason to pay $100 for books. Even ignoring the tablet / ebook concept, I had some courses where instead of published textbook, the required reading was a 300 page printout of the instructors notes, prepared by the campus print shop for $10. I would like to see more push in this direction. Open textbooks available electronically for free, or in dead tree format for the cost of production.

  4. Strawman defeated by mcmonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Although computer use during class may create the illusion of enhanced engagement with course content, it more often reflects engagement with social media

    Other than businesses wanting to sell more laptop computers or students wanting to surf the web during class, who ever claimed computer use during a lecture or seminar would enhance engagement with course content?

    1. Re:Strawman defeated by El+Cubano · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Other than businesses wanting to sell more laptop computers or students wanting to surf the web during class, who ever claimed computer use during a lecture or seminar would enhance engagement with course content?

      I am guessing that you don't teach or otherwise work in the education sector. Just off the top of my head, here are people or groups would have an incentive to make that claim:

      • Computer hardware/software makers (as you already pointed out)
      • Administrators at primary/secondary schools who want larger budgets (in government, bigger budget == more important/influential)
      • Colleges and universities who want to be perceived as leading edge
      • Makers of educational support software (e.g., Blackboard, Desire2Learn, etc.)
      • Textbook publishers trying to go the ebook route (remember, ebooks are nearly free to reproduce/distribute compared to dead tree books)
      • Parents who want to make themselves believe that because Johnny or Sally is using a computer in class they will get a better education and turn out smarter, more capable, etc.

      This whole "computers in the classroom" thing is probably the best example ever of the self licking ice cream cone or the solution in search of a problem.

    2. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      , who ever claimed computer use during a lecture or seminar would enhance engagement with course content?

      Educators and politicians have always promoted that all classrooms be connected to the internet since the 1990s. It was always a stupid idea, but it has been around forever.

    3. Re:Strawman defeated by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Other than businesses wanting to sell more laptop computers or students wanting to surf the web during class, who ever claimed computer use during a lecture or seminar would enhance engagement with course content?

      I believe that Blackjack, code and hookers would enhance classroom learning. At least, I'll volunteer to try it out.

      In fact students would be better off leaving their laptops in the dorm during class

      In fact some students I knew would have been better off leaving themselves in the dorm during class.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    4. Re:Strawman defeated by Luthair · · Score: 1

      Typing is a lot faster than writing, and you don't need to look at the screen. For me, I could never keep up with notes on the blackboard when writing so my focus would be attempting to take notes, not the lecture.

    5. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people want to use them, it wouldn't be so annoying if the tapping of keys didn't cause so much noise. I was lucky when I was in college that there weren't many laptops in classes. I can only remember a handful of them.

      But, trying to take notes on a laptop is rather problematic if you've got anything other than just text. Drawing a diagram can be a real problem if you need to. Not to mention that it's really easy to type things and have no idea what you've typed or why.

    6. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, back in the '90s there were still educational games that were fun to play. I miss those old Broderbund and TLC titles that taught things, but also had an actual game attached to them.

    7. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Typed notes are completely inferior to written notes. Yes, it's easier to keep up with the lecture while typing, but they don't result in retention that's as good as real handwritten notes. And, if you need any sort of diagram or drawing, those are a pain to embed during class.

      Then there's the distraction that these devices represent to other students.

      Really, the best thing is to just learn how to take notes properly, you shouldn't have a problem taking notes in most classes unless they're particularly dense or the instructor speaks incredibly fast.

    8. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe if Sally had a laptop she could help the poster up-thread lessen the time he's disrupting class. Win!

    9. Re:Strawman defeated by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Rote typing is certainly faster, but how useful is it? Is your goal to gain a new copy of a textbook or to learn? To condense notes down to the point you can keep up with handwriting you have to actually engage and process the content.

      All through college I had access to a laptop and I still hand-wrote all my notes. My handwriting is illegible and I never read or studied those notes. Just the act of writing them down and having a spatial mapping to where/how I wrote it out on a page was enough to remember a lot of the material.

    10. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although computer use during class may create the illusion of enhanced engagement with course content, it more often reflects engagement with social media

      Other than businesses wanting to sell more laptop computers or students wanting to surf the web during class, who ever claimed computer use during a lecture or seminar would enhance engagement with course content?

      The politicians offering yet another "magic bullet" for a problem, politicians wanting to get some camera time being on the "correct side" of an issue?

    11. Re:Strawman defeated by Luthair · · Score: 1

      Typed notes are completely inferior to written notes.

      They're superior, there is no nuance missed to shortforms, nor are there any legibility issues later

      Yes, it's easier to keep up with the lecture while typing, but they don't result in retention that's as good as real handwritten notes

      Speak for yourself.

      And, if you need any sort of diagram or drawing, those are a pain to embed during class.

      If you're in a class that needs diagrams, keep a piece of paper and pencil. Its not hard.

      Then there's the distraction that these devices represent to other students.

      If you're using it to take notes, its no more a distraction than someone scratching away with a pen(cil), flipping pages digging around in their bag and mucking with whiteout / eraser.

      Really, the best thing is to just learn how to take notes properly, you shouldn't have a problem taking notes in most classes

      Again speak for yourself, I spent 20-years in school I know whats needed for notes. If you're not a fast writer and you're dealing with lots of writing its not a matter of "doing it properly".

    12. Re:Strawman defeated by perpenso · · Score: 1

      Why the need for speed? Typing a verbatim transcript of the class can be a somewhat mindless activity as one zones out and merely recognizes words without context and types them up. You might become a great typist but its a poor way to learn. However if you are paying enough attention to the lecture so that you can summarize and write down the important things you may learn a bit more.

    13. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It did for me. I took notes electronically. Its not the computers fault that students lack discipline. I am old enough that wifi was just coming out when I was in college and I took notes on an iPaq and fold out keyboard. I was engaged and had searchable notes. For my advanced degrees a computer was necessary. I just had the self control and attention span to be able to engage in the material and not play online. Perhaps the pervasiveness of open campus wifi is the problem? If its younger kids then block social media sites, block vpn, and do your job and restrict access. Its very easy to do from an IT standpoint. The problem is not the technology but how they implement it.

    14. Re:Strawman defeated by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Typing a verbatim transcript of the class can be a somewhat mindless activity as one zones out and merely recognizes words without context and types them up.

      Hence the old joke about a lecture being a method fro transferring words from the teacher's page to the student's, without passing through the brain of either.

      I'd like to know what GP is smoking. And where I can get some.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    15. Re:Strawman defeated by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      A typed summary is best of all. It's easier to take during the lecture, requires enough attention to summarize, and can be expended later. A handwritten summary is second best, but it has to be transcribed before anything else can be done with it.

    16. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Likewise, employees with computers have been shown to spend a lot of time doing social networking, chatting, watching youtube videos, listening to music, etc. Where is the call for removal of computers from employees?

    17. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is really little reason to have a computer in a classroom unless the class is about the use of computers. Even then it may be distracting.

      The problem with computers, and even a lot of note taking is that it limits the purpose of having a LECTURE. If copying notes down is all that is important, that can be done in a book. A lecture is a medium where a person can work through examples and explain things in a way that make sense when "shown" but doesn't translate to a "book" format. There is also the Q&A portion which resolves any potential issues in how the specific presentation was made. That is nearly the entire point of a lecture. Also, people are really bad at taking notes on new subjects. You write down stuff you think you need to remember because it *sounds important* well guess what - that is the stuff that is easy to remember... it already seemed really important. The actual important part of notes is the minor details that are hard to remember and hard to properly "note".

      The key here is a lecture is a PROCESS. Ignoring that because taking notes or "fact checking/supplementing" the lecturer with a computer is "cool/progressive" is worthless to the purpose. If you just listen to the lecture you should walk away with what you need. Many of my professors (admittedly years ago) banned laptops for this very reason.

      As far as I can tell, laptops in the classroom just make a good photo opportunity. It looks like the student is DOING SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE but in reality any effort the student is putting toward operating the computer is effort he is not putting into learning.

      Think of it this way - we remember all the stupid gossip of our friends, quotes from movies, song lyrics, etc. because we are FUCKING PAYING ATTENTION. People don't need to take notes to remember their friend got a new job, what it is, etc because we are actually listening. The human brain can remember things when full attention is given. But imagine talking to a friend with a computer in front of you. How much of that conversation are you going to remember.

    18. Re:Strawman defeated by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      So eliminate the distraction and you eliminate the problem. School laptops should switch over to dumb terminal state when they enter a classroom. Teachers monitors from the front, as each notebook logs in and reverts to dumb terminal state, only capable of doing what is required for that class. So the right reference material available, the right test or work assignment, to work on and the right class specific simulation to work with.

      Don't blame the notebook, blame schools that would allow children to carry comics to class with them, not just one but a whole box full. Computers can be programmed to do pretty much any thing you can imagine and it is no problem to tie one down to a specific class at log in to that class and the teacher can quite readily track the login on their computer out the front, as well as pull up the students screen on the teacher computer.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    19. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Your entire argument is based around "speak for yourself" and "i know what I need".

      Sorry, but that is not a sound argument. Show me the data that indicates having laptops in the classroom is more productive for learning. You can't because it is the opposite.

      If you really need typed notes of entire lectures so bad then you having a type of learning disability that most people do not have OR every single lecture you have ever attended is poorly designed OR you are defending something you actually did as better than something you did not do as a point of pride. No matter the reason, your "case" is not normal.

      Most people take poor notes on a computer. Having been in lectures with idiots like you, it seems like they are pounding away on the keys non-stop (yes there is a distracting noise to others that is *constant* rather than once every 15 minutes when a page turn is required). And are you serious... people using white out during a lecture? That is your argument? I have never seen that once and if anyone did it... they probably shouldn't be in the lecture for other reasons.

      Most people get distracted with computers because it breaks the "isolation" of the lecture. Its like trying to be lectured while in an amusement park. Most people feel the need to "look things up" that they don't feel are right about the lecture or if the professor "poses a question". This person then googles shit and starts spewing it as if it is a reliable source.

      Your entire argument is a joke and really only revolves around an unrealistic need. If you can't hand write notes fast enough that you need a computer to write notes faster and you are going back and actually reviewing those notes that are so dense they require special equipment to get down fast enough then you may as well just skip the lecture and read the fucking textbook (twice) because all you are doing listening to the textbook, copying it down, then re-reading it again. It is almost laughable to me that you do this as it is way way more effort than I put into lectures (brief hand written notes that were rarely reviewed) and I had a 4.0 at a major university.

      I also don't believe for a minute that typing has the same effect on memory that writing does. So maybe your technique "works" but requires a fuck ton more effort than just paying attention to the lecture and taking brief written notes that you may never even review.

    20. Re:Strawman defeated by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I spent 20-years in school

      Perhaps if you learned to take notes properly you'd progress a bit faster.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    21. Re:Strawman defeated by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      A handwritten summary is second best, but it has to be transcribed before anything else can be done with it.

      Except to be read while reviewing the class content. No transcription required. And, you might note that if you handwrote it the first time, and then "transcribed" it after class, you've now processed the material twice, instead of simply typed it into the computer verbatim once.

    22. Re:Strawman defeated by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      Other than businesses wanting to sell more laptop computers or students wanting to surf the web during class, who ever claimed computer use during a lecture or seminar would enhance engagement with course content?

      I am guessing that you don't teach or otherwise work in the education sector. Just off the top of my head, here are people or groups would have an incentive to make that claim:

      • Textbook publishers trying to go the ebook route (remember, ebooks are nearly free to reproduce/distribute compared to dead tree books)

      And importantly for Textbook publishers is the ability to impliment DRM so the book can't be resold, printed, or in some cases even accessed after the semester ends. If a textbook edition is still current, or even still compatible (n-1 edition is usually good enough), it has a strong demand on the used market. Textbook Publishers don't want that if they can enforce charging everyone $150.

      As a plus for everyone else is the growth of open learning materials. First year Calculus hasn't changed in decades / centuries. There's no reason to pay hundreds of dollars for reference material.

    23. Re:Strawman defeated by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      That's why you don't type it in verbatim. You summarize.

    24. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does the job require the use of a computer? Because if not, then the computers should be taken away.

      The difference here is that a lot of jobs actually do require computers for a sizable portion of the work. Having a computer in class is rarely necessary. It's mostly necessary in classes where you're learning how to use them.

    25. Re:Strawman defeated by Obfuscant · · Score: 1
      2 > 0.

      2 is also > 1.

    26. Re:Strawman defeated by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Although computer use during class may create the illusion of enhanced engagement with course content, it more often reflects engagement with social media

      Other than businesses wanting to sell more laptop computers or students wanting to surf the web during class, who ever claimed computer use during a lecture or seminar would enhance engagement with course content?

      Laptops, like cellphones are a distraction. No classroom full of students who prefer instagram to the lesson should be allowed cellphone or laptop, except after supper or before school begins.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    27. Re:Strawman defeated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At my work, almost everyone is issued a laptop, and when it comes to meetings there are a lot of the same problems as described in the article. Some meeting organizers will request that you don't bring your laptop though they can't really enforce it.

      To be fair, a lot of people are actually do work things on their laptop, even if they aren't paying attention.

  5. Sweeping statements by Minupla · · Score: 0

    That's interesting, so the kid who can only communicate through a sip & puff connected to a laptop is better off without a laptop in the classroom? Oh that's an exception? What about the kid with a processing speed deficit who performs their work 3 times faster on a laptop? Another exception? What about a well run classroom where the teachers is supervising what the children are doing, the same way as my teachers called me out when I was doodling at my desk instead of getting my work done?

    Like most things involving humans, sweeping conclusionary statements about the educational process are myopic and ill advised, because educational methods should be shaped to the PEOPLE involved. What works for one teacher/student/class will not work for another teacher/student/class combination. That's why teachers are professionals, the same way as IT professionals are, they shape their approach to the situation at hand. (and before someone makes a disparaging remark about teachers, allow me to point out we all know IT people who should be in another profession too)

    Min

    --
    On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
    1. Re:Sweeping statements by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 1

      Don't mistake a general claim about an average student for a sweeping claim about all students. There are exceptions to every rule.

    2. Re:Sweeping statements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as the testing and results, I would think that using notepad, wordpad, or word for notes would need to be measured in order to support or debunk the claim of the article. This use does not necessarily go across the internet, and therefore was not accounted for. At least, that what I did in school; notebook and pen or laptop for taking notes.

    3. Re:Sweeping statements by Minupla · · Score: 1

      "Students Are Better Off Without a Laptop In the Classroom" is the very definition of a sweeping claim. Adding 'average' or 'most' might change that fact.

      Min

      --
      On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
    4. Re:Sweeping statements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work in higher ed with a background in software engineering and ed psych.

      With the exception of necessary assistive technologies (e.g. JAWS for a blind student) your argument is absolute horse shit.

      Please see the following: Psychological Science in the Public Interest

    5. Re:Sweeping statements by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 3

      That's interesting, so the kid who can only communicate through a sip & puff connected to a laptop is better off without a laptop in the classroom? Oh that's an exception? What about the kid with a processing speed deficit who performs their work 3 times faster on a laptop? Another exception?

      Of course there are exceptions. But when you're talking about requiring a computer for communication with classmates and the instructor due to some physical challenge, then that obviously doesn't fall into "being distracted by YouTube fidget spinner videos during class."

      What about a well run classroom where the teachers is supervising what the children are doing, the same way as my teachers called me out when I was doodling at my desk instead of getting my work done?

      I'm pretty sure TFS quote (from the first line, for crying out loud. You didn't even need to read the entire summary!): " in fact students would be better off leaving their laptops in the dorm during class" means that we're not talking about children, here. I don't know any elementary or high schools that have dorms, so we're looking at college/university level for this study. I don't know any college/university profs that supervise what their students are doing during class. They give the lecture, and if you haven't learned to pay attention and prioritize your own work habits by the time you've graduated high school, tough luck for you.

      Like most things involving humans, sweeping conclusionary statements about the educational process are myopic and ill advised, because educational methods should be shaped to the PEOPLE involved. What works for one teacher/student/class will not work for another teacher/student/class combination. That's why teachers are professionals, the same way as IT professionals are, they shape their approach to the situation at hand. (and before someone makes a disparaging remark about teachers, allow me to point out we all know IT people who should be in another profession too)

      Min

      Also, like most things involving humans, people who don't read and understand the information they're given are usually ill prepared to comment on said information. Similar to the YouTube-surfing students in this study, actually. I'd have expected more from someone with such a low UID.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    6. Re:Sweeping statements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, it wasn't a sweeping conclusionary statement. It was a general statement indicating the results of an experiment. There is this field called "science" that uses this other technique called "statistics" because 100% of the data rarely agrees.

      What this study indicates is that letting students use laptops in the classroom by default generally isn't the best strategy. If this is supported by other studies, and then maybe the thinking should change. Instead of letting students use laptops by default, then maybe those wishing to use laptops should have to justify their use.

    7. Re:Sweeping statements by neurovish · · Score: 1

      That's interesting, so the kid who can only communicate through a sip & puff connected to a laptop is better off without a laptop in the classroom? Oh that's an exception? What about the kid with a processing speed deficit who performs their work 3 times faster on a laptop? Another exception? What about a well run classroom where the teachers is supervising what the children are doing, the same way as my teachers called me out when I was doodling at my desk instead of getting my work done?

      Like most things involving humans, sweeping conclusionary statements about the educational process are myopic and ill advised, because educational methods should be shaped to the PEOPLE involved. What works for one teacher/student/class will not work for another teacher/student/class combination. That's why teachers are professionals, the same way as IT professionals are, they shape their approach to the situation at hand. (and before someone makes a disparaging remark about teachers, allow me to point out we all know IT people who should be in another profession too)

      Min

      The study was done on college students, not children. Professors are not going to babysit the class and police what they are doing, and they shouldn't be. If you paid $5000 for a class, then you should probably just leave the laptop at home and take notes with a pen and paper.

    8. Re:Sweeping statements by perpenso · · Score: 1

      Teachers monitoring and calling out students distracts from teaching, it disrupts the entire class. And how are they to monitor all the students, real-time spyware?

    9. Re:Sweeping statements by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Found the aspie!

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  6. Crutches prevent learning to walk by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Other than businesses wanting to sell more laptop computers or students wanting to surf the web during class, who ever claimed computer use during a lecture or seminar would enhance engagement with course content?

    FAR too many people think it will help. In some cases it can but the problem is that people think these cases generalize more than they actually do. It's just a modern day version of letting students use a fancy calculator as a crutch to get answers rather than having to do the heavy lifting to actually learn from first principles and gain the intuition that results.

    Plus for too many students the computer is just a HUGE distraction. Why would a kid pay attention to a boring history or math class when they could be doing something fun on social media?

    1. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      What's a "boring math class"?

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      What's a "boring math class"?

      It's a class where any maths is taught.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    3. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by infolation · · Score: 1

      You could argue it prepares them for the modern workplace, where people have to learn to concentrate in the face of such distractions.

      At a company I ran a few years ago I put a piece of paper on the wall each day which told everyone exactly how much money we were burning every day, hour and minute to keep the place going. It really focussed people's minds on making every minute count.

      If a student is going to bring a computing device into a lecture maybe it should tell them, in real time, how much of their education loan each minute of messing around on facebook etc is costing them.

    4. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's a "boring math class"?

      It's a class where any maths is taught.

      I've found the imposter! Quick, someone get the feathers while I heat up the tar!

    5. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      I would have liked one to take notes with...as that I type WAAAY faster than I can hand write....not to mention even I cannot read my own handwriting 30 minutes later, it's that bad.

      I'd think a computer that is NOT hooked up to wifi or cellular would be good for that....I'd not be good if it was hooked to the internet, as that I'd likely be goofing off like most of the folks in the study.

      Can they not block internet connectivity in the classrooms?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    6. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      It's a class where any maths is taught.

      What is maths?

      I"ve heard of math, but never that apparent plural form of it....?

      I was about to assume it was a typo, but I've seen others use it....is it a common misuse like folks using loose instead of lose, or just a common typo?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    7. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by sjbe · · Score: 1

      You could argue it prepares them for the modern workplace, where people have to learn to concentrate in the face of such distractions.

      That only matters if you already know what you are doing and the goal isn't to master the subject material. Distracting students just results in poor quality learning.

      If a student is going to bring a computing device into a lecture maybe it should tell them, in real time, how much of their education loan each minute of messing around on facebook etc is costing them.

      Why would they give a shit? Especially children who aren't the ones paying anyway?

    8. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by sjbe · · Score: 2

      I would have liked one to take notes with...as that I type WAAAY faster than I can hand write....not to mention even I cannot read my own handwriting 30 minutes later, it's that bad.

      Pretty hard to type a diagram or a math equation.

      Can they not block internet connectivity in the classrooms?

      Nope. Even if they turn off wifi (which they wont) the students still can connect through a cell phone or cellular connection.

    9. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Non-North American English

    10. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by robinsonne · · Score: 1

      It stems from a British English belief that "mathematics" when shortened should retain the ending "S."

    11. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by perpenso · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Then, in a more slow fashion, write down only the important things, in summary, rather than try to create a verbatim transcript. :-) The act of paying enough attention so you can summarize helps in the learning process. The act of typing a verbatim transcript offers little learning, you can sort of zone out merely recognizing words without context and typing.

    12. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Math vs. maths
      Math and maths are equally acceptable abbreviations of mathematics. The only difference is that math is preferred in the U.S. and Canada, and maths is preferred in the U.K., Australia, and most other English-speaking areas of the world.

      Neither abbreviation is correct or incorrect. You may hear arguments for one being superior to the other, and there are logical cases for both sides. One could argue maths is better because mathematics ends in s, and one could argue math is better because mathematics is just a mass noun that happens to end in s. In any case, English usage is rarely guided by logic, and these usage idiosyncrasies are often arbitrary. If you were raised in a part of the world where people say maths, then maths is correct for you, and the same is of course true of math. Don’t listen to anyone who says otherwise.

      http://grammarist.com/spelling/math-maths/

    13. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 2

      It's a class where any maths is taught.

      What is maths?

      I"ve heard of math, but never that apparent plural form of it....?

      It is the shortened form of mathematics.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    14. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      Pretty hard to type a diagram or a math equation.

      In high-school tier, math equations are easy to type.

      In college tier, you probably should have a copy of Matlab, Mathematica or some other similar program that makes it easier to type those equations. If not, that's a case to have subsidized software infrastructure.

      In case of a diagram, there's MsPaint. Or if necessary, you can take said diagram from the textbook instead.

    15. Re: Crutches prevent learning to walk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used my laptop through college and found it very useful. I could read up supplemental materials on the fly, find other perspectives/explanations that may help clarify a topic, etc.

      With that said, most people just ignored the class and browsed. The issue I see is really the lecture format and educational structure we have. It doesn't work for most people. If the student is engaged and the material is useful or interesting, it will sell itself. If it's fairly useless or poorly presented, it will be ignored no matter what, a laptop just gives an easy portal away.

      This is not an issue with the technology it's an issue with the educational structure. With that said, it's only applicable at the college level, you can't expect most kids to be entertained since they're already forced to be there. Undergrad is becoming the same way as it's essentially the new unmanaged highschool.

    16. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's the plural because it ends in s. Of course it's an irregular one, since it doesn't have an apostrophe.

      Some unfortunate kids only get to study one economic, one physic and a lone solitary civic.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    17. Re: Crutches prevent learning to walk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Math is even more shortened maths. It's not wrong.

    18. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a class where any maths is taught.

      What is maths?

      It's a quantity of math grater than 2. Apparently there is a more diverse ecosystem of them in the British isles. Probably an evolutionary off-shoot from the selective pressure of metric measurements.

    19. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Are those quick enough? I tried once taking notes on a lappie and I couldn't do it fast enough, plus I was concentrating on the typing and not the meeting.

      Even with my idiosyncratic handwriting I'd rather scrawl & scribble then write it up neatly later.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    20. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only ignorant people from the commonwealth abbreviate it like that. Math is a collective noun, the same way that Micosoft is. Abbreviating out the middle letters and leaving the awkward "S" is rather ludicrous.

      To suggest that we're wrong in abbreviating it like that is why your version of English is in decline. It's hard enough to get foreigners to pronounce the "TH" correctly, but adding an "S" directly afterwards makes it nigh impossible.

    21. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Bizarre, isn't it? It's one of those things everybody knows is true even when it isn't.

      Because on the surface, I guess, it looks quite plausible.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      That only matters if you already know what you are doing and the goal isn't to master the subject material.

      If that's the case why are you turning up?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    23. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by arth1 · · Score: 1

      I believe that note taking is generally a bad thing. At least some brain power has to be diverted from paying attention into taking notes.
      And honestly, few students read their own notes.

      By all means, keep a notebook. But use it to note down questions to ask, and strike out the questions if answered later in the lesson. Write down a couple of keywords to look up later, as long as you have enough discipline to actually do it. In sciences classes, use the notebook to attempt to create and solve problems with the new knowledge when the teacher is occupied with other students and you have spare time. Otherwise, pay attention and think.

      Unless you intend to become a court clerk, there's little need for transforming speech to text. It mainly serves to keep your focus off learning anything because you're too busy taking notes. The belief that writing something down helps reinforce learning is only true if you write it down after you absorb it, and preferably in your own words. Then it reinforces memory. But you can't reinforce something that isn't already a memory.

    24. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      A class where mathematics is over explained. Or a class where it's under explained. Or explained badly by a lecturer.

    25. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by sjbe · · Score: 1

      If that's the case why are you turning up?

      Exactly my point.

    26. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Your solution depends completely on how simplistic the math is that someone happens to be using. I worked in Matlab all of the time in grad school, and a lot of what my classmates and I did was come up with elaborate workarounds to implement the math we needed. There is plenty of math that you can't write in Matlab or Mathematica because they lack the symbols or the syntax.
       
      And that's not even counting more than one schema for representing a given mathematical concept. The math I used for my grad school work is all on Wikipedia, but it's in an entirely different notation style. The concepts are the same, but how they are written make them utterly indecipherable to me. Even if a program handles one branch of math well, there's no guarantee that it will use a schema that a given student might be using.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    27. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 1

      I believe that note taking is generally a bad thing. At least some brain power has to be diverted from paying attention into taking notes. And honestly, few students read their own notes.

      Madness. It's been demonstrated that the act of writing down notes helps you to remember what you just heard. You don't transcribe the lecture, you note what the professor focuses on and write headlines.

      Few students read their own notes? How does one study without lecture notes?

      I found that the following study strategy worked really well in college:

      • Read the material before class. Read the whole book by the first exam if possible; easier than you think since the first few weeks are really slow.
      • Split studying up into three one hour sessions spread throughout the day. More pleasant than a marathon session in the afternoon/evening.
      • Read your notes from classes at the end of each day.
      • Read the notes from the entire week at the end of each week.
      • Read the notes since the last exam and skim the textbook material again before an exam.
    28. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Plus for too many students the computer is just a HUGE distraction. Why would a kid pay attention to a boring history or math class when they could be doing something fun on social media?

      I fail (lol) to see the problem here. Am I missing something? The student paid good money to be in that class. If they choose not to participate how is that a problem unless they are distracting others?

      The teacher is paid to teach, the student pays to have that teacher teach. If the student thinks that throwing away their money (and likely their future security) is a smart choice, who are we to interfere with that choice? Is freedom not a thing anymore? We have to control other peoples actions for their own good?

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    29. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by antdude · · Score: 1

      Recording the lectures is also nice too while taking notes.

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    30. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      In college tier, you probably should have a copy of Matlab

      Matlab is not for typing equations. And any "typing equations" solution that does result in an equation after entering the proper codes to get the right characters is going to be slower and more inconvenient than just writing it down directly. For example, I have no idea how to write a summation symbol (capital sigma) in Matlab, even though there is probably a latex encoding that will result in it being displayed in a document Matlab produces. Putting the sub and superscripts on that symbol would be a nightmare trying to do it in real time.

      If not, that's a case to have subsidized software infrastructure.

      The $99 student edition of Matlab is what I would call a highly subsidized software infrastructure.

      In case of a diagram, there's MsPaint.

      236: MsPaint
      MsPaint: Command not found.

      There is nothing as productive as trying to use five different programs to take notes in one class.

    31. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Am I missing something? The student paid good money to be in that class. If they choose not to participate how is that a problem

      Because they aren't getting what they paid for while they think they are. And then they'll probably rate the instructor as bad because they didn't learn what they paid to learn.

      unless they are distracting others?

      You know, people complain bitterly about how a cellphone in vibrate mode in someone's pocket absolutely destroys their ability to enjoy a movie, and yet it seems out of the realm of possibility that someone sitting in class clicking away on a keyboard might distract anyone else. We must create cell-free zones where signals are blocked in violation of federal law to protect the former nutjobs, but the latter is perfectly fine.

      Let's not forget how rude it is to the speaker when that is going on. "I'm in class to learn something from you, but what I am doing on my computer is much more important than what you are saying..."

    32. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do students still even go to class? Whatever happened to just reading the text and showing up for examinations?

    33. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Madness. It's been demonstrated that the act of writing down notes helps you to remember what you just heard.

      As I already said, there are studies showing that writing down reinforces memory. It does not, however, reinforce what hasn't made it to memory.

      How does one study without lecture notes?

      Paying full attention, books (beyond the assigned ones), asking sane questions, going beyond the curriculum to learn more, but most of all trying to understand instead of memorizing.

      While in higher education, I never made a single note beyond a couple of "ask about / look up" lines a week, and I were in the top tenth percentile for every class, and set a school record high for maths (this was back when there were point grades, from 6.0 to 1.0, and not lump grades of A-D,F like now).
      I don't believe I'm much smarter than the next guy, but I do believe that not wasting time on things like note taking made a difference in how much I actually learned.

    34. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Tunefix · · Score: 1

      And when you write it up neatly later, you mentally must go through the material once again. Double learning!

    35. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      MsPaint: Command not found.

      If your computer doesn't have a replacement already installed, then you clearly wouldn't have the right software to take notes to begin with. If it is installed but you don't know it's name, then maybe you should learn what's actually installed on your system.

      There is nothing as productive as trying to use five different programs to take notes in one class.

      Yeah, if only there was a single program that did everything.

      When it comes to taking notes, it's only necessary to be efficient enough. Whether one prefers pen-and-paper, or prefers using a computer is irrelevant as long as sufficient notes can be taken for later review.

    36. Re:Crutches prevent learning to walk by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      The student paid good money to be in that class. If they choose not to participate how is that a problem unless they are distracting others?

      Is this a difference between British and USian university practice? In (UKian) lectures, interaction between student and lecturer isn't expected apart from a few minutes for questions at the end of the lecture. Those few who are likely to ask questions are expected to seat themselves in the front rank of seats, and are expected to make their questions cogent - e.g. if they catch an ambiguity or contradiction between words and diagrams.

      Where interaction is expected is in the once- or twice- weekly seminars between smaller groups of students and lecturers or RAs/ TAs/ PhD students etc. And it is part of the job description of the person running the seminar to ensure that all of the students in their seminar group get tested on their understanding of the materials of the lectures and the problems that have been set.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  7. Start the noise! by ebonum · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm sure some billion dollar social media companies will be able to quietly cast doubt on these "absurd" and "backward" conclusions.

    1. Re:Start the noise! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not just get Trump to do it? He's pretty good at it.

    2. Re:Start the noise! by geekmux · · Score: 1

      I'm sure some billion dollar social media companies will be able to quietly cast doubt on these "absurd" and "backward" conclusions.

      This would be like standing on top of the bar, ranting to a room full of drinkers about how alcohol is bad for you. This study was pointless. No one gives a shit anymore. Employers don't give a flying fuck about your cum laude standing. They're only looking to see if you managed to focus just enough to fucking graduate and can therefore check a box on an application.

  8. Yep. by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

    I went through college in the early 2000s at a school where a laptop was required for school.

    I did terrible in classes where the teachers expected us to have our laptops. They'd do stuff with Maple, Mathematica, Maple, etc. I went back to keeping the laptop in my backpack and writing the code down along with a verbal description of what each line did.

    Transcription errors just forced me to RTFM (StackExchange was still 7 years from existence) and understand what each command actually did along with calling options.

    Plus there was "StarCraft", the kid that did nothing but StarCraft all class. Headphones and all.

    1. Re:Yep. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As soon as we got wifi in our first lecture hall, starcraft was the first thing i did.

      Didn't do too well in "dinosaurs". I'm ok with it.

    2. Re:Yep. by iampiti · · Score: 1

      I don't get it. Why go to class if you're gonna be playing Stracraft? Was there any system to control if you were there? Otherwise, if you're gonna just play do it in the dorm

  9. This month... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This month in "Duh Magazine"!

  10. Laptops? Or the internet. by Cimexus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sounds to me like the problem is having an internet connection in class rather than laptops themselves, since the findings focus on time wasted on social media, shopping, other non-academic uses. I used a laptop in class in the late 90s/early 2000s for taking notes on, instead of on paper, but it wasn't really a distraction because there was no internet connection (Wifi wasn't ubiquitous in classrooms back then). It was just the way I took notes.

    1. Re:Laptops? Or the internet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solitaire and FreeCell beg to differ.

    2. Re:Laptops? Or the internet. by AdamStarks · · Score: 1

      Nope, it's the laptop. I have distinct memories of playing Abe's Oddyssey throughout many a Physics 2 lecture. Contrast with Advanced Computer Architecture, which had me paying rapt attention with notebook and pencil.

    3. Re:Laptops? Or the internet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      200 million secretaries playing solitaire on Windows 3.1 beg to differ...

    4. Re:Laptops? Or the internet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This sounds like a self-control problem, not a technology problem.

      I hate when professors disallow laptops. Handwritten notes are slow and inefficient. Typed (well, word-processed) notes are quick, easy to reorganize when professors inevitably return to a previous topic to expand upon it, searchable, and easily stored -- I have digital class notes going back years that I can access any time from anywhere.

    5. Re:Laptops? Or the internet. by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Sounds to me like the problem is having an internet connection in class rather than laptops themselves

      Sounds to me like someone feels the need to control someone elses environment "for their own good". Why do you care if the person next to you fails completely and utterly because of a lack of self control? Take away WiFi? Why?

      Don't get me wrong here, I am not encouraging adding distractions into the classroom with the express intent of trying to make the students distracted so they can not learn... but, I fail to see how "forcing" them to pay attention has value.

      Think about it for a second... if the person next to you fails, then you have less competition for the job they did not become qualified to seek.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    6. Re:Laptops? Or the internet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back in the days, laptop only had around three hours top.

      I had to optimize all the background services to force on note taking. Internet is usually turned off to extend battery life. The few times it is on is when I need to search or upload for academic purpose.

      I also had a pen tablet for majority of the note taking. Soft copies are much lighter than hard copies.

    7. Re:Laptops? Or the internet. by iampiti · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you just gotta want to be paying attention. You just have a word processor/note taking application/whatever open and close everything else. It isn't that hard, IF YOU WANT.

  11. Same in the real world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can find the same content traffic on any company network.... Surprised?

    Work production also goes down about the same amount. We blocked various sites here at work and one of the programmers decided to set up a proxy server at his home. It is allowed to work from home so we had to leave it. But the gigabytes of traffic is suspicious.

    We decided to not block websites but to put monitors on sites visited. Corporate decided that as long as production isn't slipping that they would turn a blind eye.

    We would rather have our firewall deal with HTTP traffic than have that traffic come in over encrypted https from a proxy where no telling where it actually came from.

  12. Nothing more obvious by SmaryJerry · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is too obvious to former students. It's college though, like the real world if you don't put effort in and fail it is your own fault and your own money and time you are wasting, unless you are a socialist getting college for free.

    1. Re:Nothing more obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some think they can do whatever they want because, having paid for it, they’re entitled to their diploma.

      “Paying for it” is only an incentive for psychanalysts.

    2. Re:Nothing more obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free?

      Who is paying for it then?

    3. Re:Nothing more obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... you are a socialist getting college for free.

      Most countries enforce a repayment scheme so it's free only when you fail. Of course, a capitalist like yourself won't complain about failing on other people's money: Remember, all those US banks lost millions of dollars in bad loans and were bailed-out with other people's money.

      There is a difference though: A successful student gets a high-paying job and must pay his own way through life. A successful bank earns billions and pays a few hundred million to the directors then puts the rest in an offshore account so it doesn't have to go back into society via taxes and dividends.

      People spouting the evils of socialism or common welfare-capitalism don't face the evils of capitalism. But it's easily seen in the US healthcare industry. Big pharmaceuticals tells patients what medicines to buy and Big insurance tell doctors what medicines to sell. Meanwhile, the biggest healthcare customer (US government) ignores its market power and blindly throws money at Big pharmaceuticals. The result is an over-priced product (health services) with mediocre efficacy. Repeat the story for tertiary-level education in the USA.

  13. Blame the tool? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computers are used at work too. If students can't figure out whats appropriate in what environment, they are in for a rude awakening.
    Hardly seems the laptop's fault.

    1. Re:Blame the tool? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clearly it isn't the laptop's fault just like it isn't the gun's fault, however, when teachers are requiring a tool then not using it well it is going to lead to stray use. I remember talking with a cousin of mine, the high school that I graduated from 20 years ago, started giving every student and IPad. I asked him what they were used for, he couldn't give me a concise answer. One of the only thing he could describe was using a graphing program to graph quadratic functions and being required to WRITE short papers in his English class on the IPad and submit them through some sort of shitty educational app. Basically encapsulated web form in an app that writes it to some shit database.

      The best part was the school didn't see fit to give the students bluetooth keyboards so these students were actually writing papers by typing on the screen on an IPad. Since you had to submit them in the app it was sort of a requirement. Obviously you could have typed it and then emailed it to the Ipad but clearly kids were not doing this, I I mean JESUS H CHRIST. I would refuse to do an assignment if it was required to be typed and I had to write it on a fucking glass screen.

      That is the problem with education. No thinking, just the next cool toy.

      You want to put computers in the classroom, I'd have them use Raspberry PI's no only would they need to learn how to actually use the computer but I wouldn't have wifi so when you need the LAN the switch is turned on, and when you need to code or write a paper it becomes a non-internet enabled computer.

    2. Re:Blame the tool? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Computers are used at work because the utility gained is greater than the cost of distraction. If it's the other way round then they should stop using computers.

      Working out who to blame is a distraction, but if removing computers is the most efficient solution then go for it.

  14. It used to be.. by fred911 · · Score: 1

    .. a bowl of humboldt, now they're blaming computers?

    "This self-inflicted distraction comes at a cost, as students are spending up to one-third of valuable (and costly) class time zoned out,"

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  15. This Just In! by Notabadguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Students with self-discipline and an interest in academic success perform better than students without self-discipline!

    Here's an interesting anecdote as a West Point alumni - cadets all had computers starting in the very late 90s. In 2001, USMA switched from issuing towers to issuing laptops, which cadets took to class. The laptops took the place of hand-written notes (of which everyone was expected to keep volumes), and paper lab books (of which there were many - and costly).

    They worked fine. There was also disciplinary action if caught using your laptop during class for non-class related work. Then again, West Point is extremely academically rigorous, and you get kicked out if your GPA drops too low.

    Point being - half the kids in college are just there because that's what they were supposed to do next - they're not trying to better themselves, so given a chance to fuck around, they're going to entertain themselves. There's a lack of discipline. If people want to see college kids performing better at academic pursuits, then colleges are going to have to invest in some.

    1. Re:This Just In! by Tomahawk · · Score: 1

      "Students with self-discipline and an interest in academic success perform better than students without self-discipline!"

      The article is mainly pointing out that laptops are a major form of distraction. So while your statement is quite obvious, the article point out that for those students (and more, very likely), laptops are a bad thing.

    2. Re:This Just In! by swb · · Score: 1

      Point being - half the kids in college are just there because that's what they were supposed to do next - they're not trying to better themselves,

      That's the big problem -- college is just a stop on life's course where you collect the signal flag of a degree that says you should be hired for a job. Most people, even the "serious" students with professional degree destinations like medicine, dentistry or law, are just there for the vocational path and not because they care about learning anything.

      If we had some other way of providing vocational training to students for white collar jobs besides "college", we could probably cut out the people just sleepwalking through to get a corporate job.

      I'd like to see a college outright ban laptops in classes in favor of good old notebooks and pens. I think there's a cognitive reinforcement that comes from actually handwriting notes, more so than typing them -- I learned more from lectures and note taking than almost any other source in college.

      And there's also the cost reduction angle -- if the University doesn't do laptops in classrooms, then it doesn't need to spend a zillion dollars blanketing every classroom with enough wifi to satisfy 150 people or remodeling lecture halls to make them laptop friendly.

    3. Re:This Just In! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is also bad for others who are actually interested in getting their money's worth of their tuition. People's laptops are in your line of sight, which is distracting if they are looking at videos or images. And then you have the people taking notes on their laptops - you can't get away from that irritating sound. Then, to top it all off, professors have become lazy and lecture from course slides (sometimes it isn't the professor's fault, but the university mandating they make their lecture notes available online), which is a completely useless way to convey most information (there is a good use for slides, but not as the primary way to convey information). There is no way I would be able to deal with school now days given the idiots around me on their laptops or phones, or the professors who are told making their class entertaining is more important than anything else.

    4. Re:This Just In! by chispito · · Score: 1

      Point being - half the kids in college are just there because that's what they were supposed to do next - they're not trying to better themselves, so given a chance to fuck around, they're going to entertain themselves. There's a lack of discipline. If people want to see college kids performing better at academic pursuits, then colleges are going to have to invest in some.

      Yes. Full stop.

      If all of the middle-class-and-up kids without direction would stop clogging up colleges after high school and actually go get some real world experience, the educational landscape--and the job landscape--would be far better off. Some might return to college with a renewed drive and purpose, and others would never go and be 100% fine. Then again, that would require employers to stop expecting five years of experience for entry level jobs and do the work of finding and shaping young talent, because they don't.

      I say this as someone who picked the wrong major and also is dumbfounded by how difficult it is to get on a decent career path. I thought by now I'd see through the haze, but 15 years in, it's still a freaking popularity contest.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    5. Re:This Just In! by maestroX · · Score: 1

      It's okay to fuck around; important things are not taught in class-rooms.
      Computer-related addictions like social media and gaming are vastly underestimated.
      The only plus using a laptop is you can read your notes afterwards.
      As soon as you're able to prepare for class and identify importance of details the amount of notes you take is very limited anyway (or class material is lacking).

    6. Re:This Just In! by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      Students with self-discipline and an interest in academic success perform better than students without self-discipline!

      I wish I could mod you up higher than 5, as this seems to be the simple, self-evident fact that far too many people are missing. The laptop is just a tool, like pencil and paper (which are also used to waste time by those who possess low self-discipline). This is in the exact same vein as a poor craftsman blaming his tools for his bad work.

  16. I've seen it both ways by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I was studying computer science in school, most of our classes were in lecture halls, and you'd have a lab portion on a different day. I got a PowerBook for my last couple of years, and was able to type my notes, since I can type way faster than I can write., so it worked out pretty well for me. Of course, Facebook wasn't a thing yet, and I detested MySpace.

    Now that I'm teaching, we're in a classroom with computers. Since so many students just goof off on the computers during the lecture, I decided to start flipping my classroom. I record video lectures and then have them work on their labs & homework during class time. It has worked out pretty well, especially for the good students, and it removes some excuses for the bad students.

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    1. Re:I've seen it both ways by jittles · · Score: 1

      When I was studying computer science in school, most of our classes were in lecture halls, and you'd have a lab portion on a different day. I got a PowerBook for my last couple of years, and was able to type my notes, since I can type way faster than I can write., so it worked out pretty well for me. Of course, Facebook wasn't a thing yet, and I detested MySpace. Now that I'm teaching, we're in a classroom with computers. Since so many students just goof off on the computers during the lecture, I decided to start flipping my classroom. I record video lectures and then have them work on their labs & homework during class time. It has worked out pretty well, especially for the good students, and it removes some excuses for the bad students.

      I had a sleep disorder when I was in college and was completely unaware of it. Screwing around on my laptop kept me awake during lectures instead of asleep in my chair. I dare say that I learned more while distracted by the computer than I did when I slept through class. But my friends and I would just sit there and play around on party poker during class, we weren't getting into long drawn out conversations on facebook (which did not exist). One time I did wake up from a nap in class to look over the shoulder of the guy in front of me and see that he was getting a strip tease on Yahoo Messenger from some girl. I think I stayed awake for the rest of that lecture.

    2. Re:I've seen it both ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never understood how typing notes was faster than writing them by hand, but then again, I studied engineering and trying to type math equations was never particularly quick, and that was 90% of the notes I took.

    3. Re:I've seen it both ways by rhsanborn · · Score: 1

      I don't have time to find the studies now, but writing notes is associated with much better content retention than typing notes. So, while a given student may have a stenographers record of the class, they a much less likely to be able to reproduce that on a test.

    4. Re:I've seen it both ways by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      I've never understood how typing notes was faster than writing them by hand, but then again, I studied engineering and trying to type math equations was never particularly quick, and that was 90% of the notes I took.

      Most of my notes were code or pseudocode for algorithms.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
  17. Even pre-social media by kria · · Score: 1

    I can totally buy this, 100%. I was in the first class at my college required to buy laptops, in 1995. I can definitely say that even before Youtube or facebook, we were frequently websurfing or chatting with each other or playing little games during class. I think it was a good thing for us academically as we progressed that we reached classes that had not yet really attempted to integrate them into the curriculum and most of us stopped bothering to tote them around. (Well, and technology was progressing at a fast enough pace at that point that they were really hunks of junk by the time we graduated. Woo, 486! Woo, 540 meg harddrive!)

    1. Re:Even pre-social media by MangoCats · · Score: 1

      The computer is an awesome tool, but the lecture hall didn't evolve to work with outside competition for students' attention - not surprising that a shift in the structure of something that has evolved over hundreds of years for a singular purpose has diminished its efficiency at achieving that purpose.

      Now, if we want to think about re-imagining the lecture hall with consideration of the computer as an available tool... what's the increase in efficiency of distribution of information for a professor sitting in his office to be able to lecture to 500 students distributed around the globe, with in-lecture support from 50 teaching assistants who can answer questions 1:1 in real-time, as compared to making everyone relocate themselves on a particular campus and live there for years to accomplish a similar purpose? Certainly, there will be loss of many things that living on a university campus provides, but on balance, for the same investment of time and money, which way could deliver better education to the same set of interested people? Which way can offer access to more students of lesser financial status? Which way can reduce the carbon footprint of education, probably by a factor of 100:1?

  18. Maybe they should spend a little more time by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

    learning. It is truly a sad reflection on the educational system, which everyone is compelled to attend thru high school, that only 76% knew that we declared independence from GB and even less (58%) knew it was 1776. The reaction to the NPR tweet of the declaration of independence on the 4th just defines the american education system. We are toast.

    1. Re:Maybe they should spend a little more time by ledow · · Score: 1

      Trivia is not learning. That's memorisation.

      Learning is acquiring a skill. Even the skill of memorising useless lists of historical facts, that's a skill. Learning how to do that (no matter what you choose to use it for - pokemon or random selective dates from history) is valuable.

      I have a degree. It's in Maths and Computer Science. I do not use maths in my daily life, or profession, beyond the mundane that everyone else does (e.g. adding up a budget). I do not apply advanced computer science principles to my job either.

      But the degree proves that I have the ability to learn skills, not memorise boring shit that nobody cares about. I would even argue that BEING ABLE TO LOOK IT UP (i.e. research methods) is much more important than actually knowing what it is.

      And much, much more important to be able to know the underlying political background, the knock-on effects, draw analogies to current world news, etc. That's a skill. And it's a skill that most people will not have, in the same way that most people can't perform the calculus necessary to integrate the area under a 4D curve.

      That said, I work in schools - always have, since graduation - and laptops do not somehow magically make kids smarter or dumber. Like all tools, it's about how they are used If they are misused, they will distract from the lesson. If they are used "because the teachers have to", they won't contribute to the lesson. If they are used as a tool to aid learning, including independent learning, they will add to someone's education. I taught myself entire swathes of computer science by straying off-lecture (seriously, 2 years of "Introduction to Programming" in Java courses alongside my maths and real computer science, starting at Hello World and ending at writing minimax algorithms) and even not attending and researching things myself.

      Back in those days, people generally didn't have laptops (only the show-offs) or smartphones. But I would much rather skip the lectures, go to the IT labs and do my own thing. (P.S. I used to email in the Java coursework from home after doing it in the 20 minute train journey back home each night - floppies and ZIP disks, but I used to do it on paper and then type it direct into an file, FTP it to the lecturer's areas, and passed with flying colours.)

      Laptops are a tool.
      Smartphones are a tool.
      Touchscreens are a tool.
      Whiteboards are a tool.
      Chalk is a tool.

      Misuse the tool (i.e. pissing about throwing chalk in a lecture) and you learn nothing from your use of it. Use the tool effectively (e.g. a group of students chalking equations in their spare time to try to solve a coursework problem) and it enhances learning.

      A laptop is no different. But it has nothing to do with the education system. I would argue that ANYTHING taught-by-rote is a con. History especially seems to suffer from this more than anything else (and is incredibly selective, but that's besides the point).

      And how would I have an opinion on that? I have atrocious, terrible, awful memory. I can't tell you what I had for breakfast. But I still got a degree. Hell, I never even revised for an exam in my entire life. Not once. Not even briefly. No study groups. Nothing. If you only know it because you revised it, you didn't know it. If you know it, and can apply it, and can derive it, and have the skills in it, and can research it, you don't need to memorise it.

      Yes, I graduated. I have an honours degree in maths & computer science. Without memorising a single fact, studying for a single exam, or failing anything. And people employ me because that proves that I have a brain that works, solves problems, learns independently, can find sources and research, and understands the answer rather than just provides it by rote. They've actually even TOLD ME THAT, as being the reason they hire people with degrees over anyone else.

      I never had a laptop. But having one - with even the tiniest amount of willpower - wouldn't make me a lazy bum who

    2. Re:Maybe they should spend a little more time by robinsonne · · Score: 1

      I'm British. I wouldn't be able to tell you that year. Or when the Battle of Waterloo, or the English Civil War was. I really couldn't care. I wouldn't even expect an historian to know, except roughly. But I'd expect them to be able to find out from multiple, independent and reliable sources. Gosh. I wonder what tool they could use for that?

      Soooo, what you're saying is that a historian shouldn't be required to know history? I hope you're holding doctors to higher standards.

    3. Re:Maybe they should spend a little more time by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

      The core of who you are as a people is not trivia. Specifically understanding that you broke away from a monarchy and about how long ago, and how the country is constructed thru documents like the Declaration of Independence is NOT trivia. I'm sorry you don't know anything about the country of which you are a citizen.

  19. Same reason I don't bring my laptop to meetings by mrun4982 · · Score: 1

    It just causes me to not pay attention. If you're not going to get anything out of the meeting or contribute in anyway, then either decline the invite or blow it off. Virtually every time I'm in some sort of meeting and someone has a laptop open, they're either wasting time or doing work that has nothing to do with the meeting. It's the same in school except worse because you're younger, more immature, and more likely to waste time and not pay attention.

    1. Re:Same reason I don't bring my laptop to meetings by Moof123 · · Score: 1

      +1
      I only bring the laptop if I expect to need to present, otherwise if I have it I will go looking for something relevant and lose track of what is going on in the meeting. Even when I am NOT distracted by the internet or social media, I still end up distracted while trying to listen and use the laptop as a tool at the same time. Almost none of us can truly multi-task, even the majority of those who think they can.

  20. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  21. Wrong problem by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

    [...] participants spent almost 40 minutes out of every 100-minute class period [...]

    There's your problem. You expect people to be able to sit still and learn things for one hour and 40 minutes at a time? And then go to another class and repeat that pattern? That's not how most people work. Lower those classes to one hour with 15 minutes breaks between classes and you'll see drastic changes in learning abilities.

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
    1. Re:Wrong problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, if you want college kids to actually learn anything....

      -Don't have classes before 9 am. I'd probably even say 10, but I'd settle for 9.

      -Don't require attendance. If a kid learns better on his own than from a shitty professor, then forcing the kid to show up is just going to create situations like this where they distract other kids by doing non-academic things.

      -Have professors who actually give a shit. So many are just there to collect a paycheck and don't care about any classes under a certain level or care about teaching at all, since they are incentivized to care about getting published and selling the latest edition of their book.

    2. Re:Wrong problem by Moof123 · · Score: 1

      Universities and health professionals are some of the worst at learning from studies carried out at by universities and medical researchers. They should study why this is.

    3. Re:Wrong problem by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I have to agree. I had some classes like that in college, and once you got past about an hour and 15 minutes in a lecture it was hard to keep focus. Meeting four times a week for a hour was much better than the classes that met twice a week for two hours because you had more time for the information to soak in. This was for lectures, labs that went for a couple of hours weren't as grueling.

      Of course, back then almost nobody had a laptop, if you did there was no wi-fi, and if you wanted it last through a 2-hour lecture you would most likely need a spare battery.

  22. Hard to beat pen and paper by Tomahawk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When I went back to do my Masters, I didn't use any technology in the classroom. Instead, I printed out a copy of all of the lecture notes (the lecturers made them all available to download) and brought them with me with a pencil. I was then able to follow the notes along with the lecturer and make any additional notes I needed in the margins, highlight passages, etc.

    I found this worked very well for me. I knew any sort of tech in my hand would lead me to being distracted (as it always the case when sent on courses for work), so I kept it simple and old school.

    Sometimes these ways are the best. Technology is great it many many areas of life, but there are some areas where the lack of it can be more beneficial - lectures being one.

    (One lecturer would actually tell anyone with a laptop or tablet out to put it away in their bags!)

    1. Re:Hard to beat pen and paper by avandesande · · Score: 2

      I find when I am doing a complex task it's easiest to print it out and do the same kind of thing.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    2. Re:Hard to beat pen and paper by Solandri · · Score: 1

      It depends on what you're learning. For most things, forcing yourself to write it down as you're listening to it reinforces what you've just heard. Your brain has to parse the sentence, rephrase it as shorthand, then repeat that shorthand phrase to itself as it guides your hand into writing it down. That instant triplicate review of the lecture material is much better for remembering and learning than just listening. On more complex abstract topics though, the act of taking notes can distract you from concentrating on and understanding what the lecturer is saying. Likewise, on really simple topics (stuff where everything said in the lecture is "obvious" immediately after it's said), having pre-printed notes can save you from boredom. Though in that case I usually skipped the lecture, read through the notes in 1/3 to 1/4 the time I would've spent at the lecture, and did fine on the tests.

      This is why I always preferred professors who wrote and drew with chalk as they lectured - it forces them to pace themselves giving you time to either write notes, or think about and understand what they were saying. In lectures by professors who used Powerpoint slides, sometimes they'd skim over something so quickly you'd miss it and be forced to stop the lecture to ask it be repeated, or make a note to review it again after. You'd spend the rest of the class trying to remember what follows without really understanding it, so you could attempt to put the pieces together into a comprehensive whole when you reviewed your notes and the slides in your room after class (and good luck if it was the first lecture in a day packed with classes).

    3. Re:Hard to beat pen and paper by chispito · · Score: 1

      When I went back to do my Masters, I didn't use any technology in the classroom. Instead, I printed out a copy of all of the lecture notes (the lecturers made them all available to download) and brought them with me with a pencil. I was then able to follow the notes along with the lecturer and make any additional notes I needed in the margins, highlight passages, etc.

      I found this worked very well for me. I knew any sort of tech in my hand would lead me to being distracted (as it always the case when sent on courses for work), so I kept it simple and old school.

      Sometimes these ways are the best. Technology is great it many many areas of life, but there are some areas where the lack of it can be more beneficial - lectures being one.

      (One lecturer would actually tell anyone with a laptop or tablet out to put it away in their bags!)

      I'd just end up doodling, which is the pen and paper equivalent of Buzzfeed, I guess. Unfortunately for me, if the lecture was not engaging I simply did not have the discipline to stay focused.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    4. Re:Hard to beat pen and paper by Moof123 · · Score: 1

      My notes varied with the lecture. In easier areas my notes might be the date, and below that any homework assignment. In harder classes I might end up with a half dozen pages.

      Laptops mostly preclude decent sketches of visuals like waveforms, graphs, and equations that do not slow down a pencil and paper note taking style at all. Given that my engineering and math classes had a lot of those I just can't see how a laptop in most of my lectures would have been helpful for my learning style.

      I did find having a laptop in my engineering labs to be handy. You could plot your data and even do a good portion of your lab report as you went.

  23. You don't bring a laptop to class to pay attention by Nite_Hawk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Granted it's been well over a decade for me since college, but it's the same story with technical conferences and work meetings. Inevitably you will run into people who spend 60 minutes saying something that should take 5-10. Allowing the audience to bring a laptop to do other stuff when this happening is the socially acceptable solution we've come up with as a society to let the lecturer save face while letting the audience quietly stop listening to them.

    Perhaps it would be better in the long run if we were honest and just booed or walked out so lecturers were more forcefully encouraged to get better. I'm not sure it would really work that way though. It's already scary enough presenting in front of a lot of people. As it is, if you've got an audience full of people staring at their laptop instead of staring at you, it's them gently telling you that what you are saying is less important to them than whatever is on their screen.

  24. Deadly Wandering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm currently reading A Deadly Wandering by Eric Richtel. The central plotline is about a kid who is texting while driving and wanders across the median and causes a car accident that kills two people, but in investigating the event Richtel talks with a number of neuroscientists who specialize in human attention, distraction, focus, and multitasking loads. I find the subject of the limitations of the human mind to work in a distracting environment and a term they call task switching costs, as well as the subject testing they perform to try and measure some of these factors fascinating, and would recommend the book to someone who wants to just touch upon the subject.

    1. Re:Deadly Wandering by PPH · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I'll look it up on Amazon as soon as this traffic thins out a bit.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  25. Schools just do "tech" to be cool by furry_wookie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Frankly, I see ZERO use for students to have cellphones, laptops, or tablets in school.

    There is nothing they need to do that can not be done better with paper, and just having a few computers available in the room for research etc.

    Constant possession of devices is NOTHING but a huge distraction in the classroom and contributes to the sick addiction behaviors I see in nearly an entire generation.

    Not to mention that many schools put these devices in the hands of children and have no clue how to manage or police their use to only appropriate purposes.

    The rush to add tables,laptops etc into classrooms is one of the biggest mistakes in educational history.

    --
    -- Given enough time and money, Microsoft will eventualy invent UNIX.
    1. Re:Schools just do "tech" to be cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Having worked in K-12 Education IT for almost seven years and having two children of my own I agree with what you are saying with one small exception. I have seen devices like iPads at the elementary level be very useful tools for teaching as there seems to be more content available for those levels. As students progress to the Middle school and High school levels I saw the devices becoming more of a toy/distraction in the classroom. Even having social media blocked for those devices while they were connected to school network didn't seem to help much as the students would just use them to play games that did not require network access, and I was not allowed to block access on the devices while they were at home with the students.

      Even worse the schools I worked for allowed students to have their cell phones in class so they could simply tether the device to their cell phone.

    2. Re:Schools just do "tech" to be cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Teachers are lazy jerks who require control to get ppl to pay attention to them. Musicians don't need grades to teach. Socrates didn't need grades. Fuck grades and fuck teachers unless they are teaching for free on the internet.

    3. Re:Schools just do "tech" to be cool by geekmux · · Score: 1

      The rush to add tables,laptops etc into classrooms is one of the biggest mistakes in educational history.

      The rush to add HFCS, antibiotics, growth hormones, etc. into our food supply is one of the biggest mistakes in medical history.

      In both examples provided here, someone is making a fucking obscene profit off those decisions, regardless of the overall impact.

      Just another case of the disease of Greed destroying ethics and morals. FUCK doing the right thing. It's all about doing the profitable thing.

    4. Re:Schools just do "tech" to be cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you only value FREE education? Who's the lazy fuck again?

    5. Re:Schools just do "tech" to be cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a computer science teacher, I disagree.

    6. Re:Schools just do "tech" to be cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spotted the tinfoil.

      Watch as he links to dodgy sites to "prove" his "facts".

  26. Free proxy? Great study. by omnichad · · Score: 1

    asking students to voluntarily login to a proxy server at the start of each class,

    Let me guess, this proxy lets students on to sites they wouldn't have had access to if they were on the school's network instead.

  27. No computers allowed... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    So they leave their brain inside a plastic bag on a table before entering the classroom?

  28. Computers being used all wrong in schools by substance2003 · · Score: 1

    When computers 1st started, they were provided by the schools. They were only networks to themselves and using DOS. Used mainly to learn stuff like word processing and programming and other little things in labs. Today, they are bought by the students, they are networked to everything on the internet and mainly using Windows and Mac OS. I'll assume some schools put filters and other network restrictions but figure this is more or less accurate.

    I'm not saying that the old way was better. I recall some kids wiping out the PCs to load their games on them at the time and messing up things but for the most part, students were using them for the intended work and focusing.

    Here's the important part of this comparison. I think when all this belief in computers for education was imagined as a benefit, it was during that DOS era. The idea of using these to enhance education was based on a system that wasn't able to sidetrack the student's from the task like it can today by opening a web browser. You couldn't even open a 2nd program back in the day and it no one seems to have come back to revisit the idea or are seeing the problem and turning a blind eye or making it the student's responsibility to manage themselves.

    The access to the internet isn't all bad but to me, it's negated a lot of the benefits that computers are supposed to provide in the school system.

  29. Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This study is ridiculous. Personal computers, specifically laptops, are now an integral part of almost all college curricula (with the possible exception of seminars on Milton's poetry). That's particularly true for the sciences. Having gone through college in the "good old" 70's, I can tell you that having a PC by my side in class would have been a huge benefit. it would also have been helpful to be able to conduct Internet searches for, and retrieve, related scholarly articles from a variety of sources in mere seconds, while a lecture was in progress. It could have made post-lecture Q&A significantly richer.

    1. Re:Ridiculous by DarkVader · · Score: 1

      I had one of the first laptops in any classroom, back in the '80s.

      It was one of the best things that could possibly have happened. I don't know how I could have finished high school without it. There's no way I'd have made it through college without it.

      Anybody suggesting students are better off without a laptop in class is totally, thoroughly, utterly, and completely wrong.

    2. Re:Ridiculous by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      LMOL actually no they are not but thanks for playing....

  30. My laptop was invaluable by SirMasterboy · · Score: 1

    Pretty much every class I took notes on OneNote along with a synced audio recording and photos of the whiteboard drawings.

    Personally I found my laptop to be invaluable for my college success.

    1. Re:My laptop was invaluable by PmanAce · · Score: 1

      Good luck taking notes with OneNote in any science field.

      --
      Tired of my customary (Score:1)
    2. Re:My laptop was invaluable by SirMasterboy · · Score: 1

      Well, not everyone is in a Science field. I was in an Engineering field so I had lots of math, physics, and a couple science classes though too. I don't really recall having much issue. Taking pictures of the whiteboard to insert into my OneNote helped a lot personally.

    3. Re: My laptop was invaluable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Taking photos or recording the lecturer is illegal over here...

    4. Re:My laptop was invaluable by ponraul · · Score: 1

      Faggot

  31. Love technology, but this is true by slazzy · · Score: 1

    I love technology, but the classroom is better off with with pen and paper. Studies and personal experience show you don't learn well taking notes on a keyboard. Not even considering the distraction that comes along with tech like games and such. Naturally we should have computer skills classes with computers.

    --
    Website Just Down For Me? Find out
  32. Grades are stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck school. It's conformist indoctrination. Tune in, turn on, drop out.

  33. Re:Disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I don't understand statistics or evidence"

  34. Re:You don't bring a laptop to class to pay attent by PPH · · Score: 1

    When I was a kid, we didn't have laptops to kill time during boring lectures. We had to draw pictures of cars and stuff in our notebooks so the teacher would think we were taking notes.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  35. Re:Disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are arguing how the computers *could* be used while the study is demonstrating how they are being used.

    This was a study of college students, and I doubt most college instructors want the type of interactive environment that you describe. They see part of their job is to prepare students for the real world, not hold their hand.

  36. Nobody said. What strawman are you talking about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Other than businesses wanting to sell more laptop computers or students wanting to surf the web during class, who ever claimed computer use during a lecture or seminar would enhance engagement with course content?

    Nobody was claiming it would enhance their engagement. They're bringing them anyway. The study is simply saying they'd be better off leaving them in their dorm.

    What don't you get about that?

    Perhaps you're the one creating strawmen?

  37. Re:Love technology, but this is true by DarkVader · · Score: 1

    Not everyone learns with paper and pen. If I try to take notes on paper, I'm going to miss getting any information from anything that's said, I'll be concentrating on trying to get something on the paper, I'll be concentrating on my hand hurting, and I still won't have any useful notes, because my handwriting is, has always been, and always will be that bad.

    Having a laptop in class was the best thing that I ever did. I wish laptops had existed before I was in high school.

    Today? I'd turn on voice recognition for the notes, maybe even video the lecture, and sit back and concentrate on the information without having to even think about typing it.

  38. Blackjack backed by student loans? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Blackjack backed by student loans?

    OK HIT soft 17 / Black Jack pays 6-5 / no re split aces / 8 decks / min bet $25.

  39. Some intructors too by jeffc128ca · · Score: 1

    I remember more a few classes in high school and college that would have been better off without the teacher. Just leaving us the text book and materials would be better than subjecting us to the uncommunicative twat writing on the blackboard.

  40. Better off wihtout laptops: Agreed. by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    Nor smartphones, personal music players, handheld game consoles, and so on.
    What we need in schools are talented teachers.

    Also, as a sidebar: This is one area where so-called 'AI' will never do; humans need to teach young humans, ideally giving personalized attention where needed, to help them reach their intellectual potential.
    Someoine manages to map out how human brains are conscious, cognizant, reasoning, and so on, so we can build TRUE 'AI'? Then that might change. The current level of not-as-smart-as-a-dog? Never.

    1. Re:Better off wihtout laptops: Agreed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nor smartphones, personal music players, handheld game consoles, and so on.

      What we need in schools are talented teachers.

      Offer decent wages and talent will come. As it stands, most teachers are underpaid to the point that they need second jobs to get by and they're required to stock their classroom out of pocket, so the people who would otherwise be great for teaching are avoiding teaching positions like the plague. Sure, there are some professors at the college level who exist purely to sell textbooks and ride out their tenure, but far more colleges are switching to adjuncts to cut costs.

      Of course, actually paying decent wages to most teachers would require school budgets not being devoted to failing sports programs.

    2. Re:Better off wihtout laptops: Agreed. by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Of course, actually paying decent wages to most teachers would require school budgets not being devoted to failing sports programs.

      No, it's all going to administrators, most of which have no teaching credentials and have never set foot in a classroom since they were students. Kick their asses out and give that money to decent teachers.

  41. Laptops! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's possible to store media offline, such as games and videos, and use an ad hoc network to do multiplayer or chat

  42. Use(ful/less)ness of online course content by NadNad · · Score: 2

    "Thus students who brought their laptops to class to view online course-related materials did not actually spend much time doing so, and furthermore showed no benefit of having access to those materials in class."

    That's a separate and interesting finding, that I wish were highlighted more. It's not just that students are using their laptops for non-class-related activities instead of learning, and then suffering academically (duh!), but that *even if* they have access to class-related content they still do not benefit.

    1. Re:Use(ful/less)ness of online course content by not+flu · · Score: 1

      Which is just a way of saying that the content provided is useless, which in my experience generally is the case. That doesn't mean there isn't untapped potential in computer content, it just means that nobody puts in the effort to make it.

      Which also mirrors my experience with university level content in general compared to lower grades. It is garbage, you're expected to shell out hundreds of euros for books that are maybe 5% on topic for the course and handouts are just printed out powerpoint slides half of which the lecturer skipped anyways. The only actually on-topic content outside lectures and exercises was old exams if you could get a hold of them.

      Meanwhile the more widely adopted curricula for high school and below had dedicated and relatively refined books (in my native tongue even) that were 100% on topic and you could ace every such course simply by going through the books in less time than it would have taken to sit in class, in stark contrast to university where text books were the studying material of last resort.

      Producing high quality digital content that leverages technologies like interactive exercises and SRS is a lot of work. You don't get that kind of studying material for courses so small all the students taking it fit in a room.

      Which, I guess, just means that there really is no point in having a laptop in class.

  43. Surely the subject matter matters? by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

    A statement like 'laptop in classroom is worse' implicitly treats all classes as alike, considers it a simple either/or matter, and disregards things like teaching children how best to make use if a laptop, and habits so as to avoid depending on them unnecessarily. Assuming away the complex nature of a real world problem makes for meaningless results, no matter how widely headline grabbing they are.

    --
    John_Chalisque
    1. Re:Surely the subject matter matters? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Read the study before commenting moron.

  44. Re:Disagree by Newmatic+Jack · · Score: 1

    This comment is spot on. Out dated curriculum delivery (i.e. lectures) is the issue. For most subjects (not all) and for most students/learners (but not all) don't want to listen to someone tell them something they can learn on their own. Very few lecturers are so engaging that everyone will be hanging on their every word all of the time. By forcing interaction as CHK6 mentions: " through in-class surveys and problems while class is going on" The instructor will know if the students are engaged and if the material they are presenting is being understood and obtained. The issue is most instructors have been "teaching this way for the past 20 years..." and don't want to change.

  45. Flawed Study by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do people that zone out a lot in lectures get lower grades? Yes
    Do people that use their laptop while zoning out a lot in lecture get lower grades? Yes
    HOWEVER, does the laptop cause people to zone out more????? THE LAPTOP EFFECT WAS NEVER TESTED.
    This study is useless. It's similar to asking people who do drugs in college for their GPA and concluding the drugs are what lowered their GPA.

    What they need to do is track laptop-less people for a year, then give them laptops, then track them for another year.
    Or, remove all distraction from some volunteer's laptops and compare their grades against the previous year when they had the distractions.

    Useless Study. Distracted people get lower grades. Water is wet.

  46. My experience by Malenx · · Score: 1

    My college banned laptops in pretty much every class but core comp sci classes. It was the at the educator's discretion, but they all followed the same understanding. There were countless kids angry about it, trying to shift blame saying the content was dull, or their snowflake generation was better than every previous generation and they should be entrusted with more responsibility, claiming they could multi task better with laptops, etc.

    The reality was, we all took in way more information when we had to write it down and then copy it to a computer and there were never giant distractions between my professor and I.

    The benefits to banning electronics far outweighed the benefits to having them in the class room.

  47. Good note taking by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I believe that note taking is generally a bad thing. At least some brain power has to be diverted from paying attention into taking notes.

    Note taking CAN be useful. It just usually isn't and most people do it very poorly. If the material in question is in your book, it's probably a waste of time. Annotate the book or handouts instead of transcribing.

    In my grad school they usually just handed out some notes before class which you could then annotate as needed. WAY more helpful than trying to transcribe the discussion. In medical schools they usually assign one person to take notes for the whole class and that person rotates so nobody has to do it more than once or twice. They then work really hard to make a very detailed set of notes which everyone can benefit from and everybody else just spends their effort paying attention.

  48. Unnecessary pluralization by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Maths is the correct short form of mathematics (notice the "s" on the end of both words) in the English language. Only ignorant Americans say "math", as though it were the only one.

    Do you study econs and physs too? Why leave the s on mathematics but not economics or physics or any other word in the language for that matter. The word math is plural and understood to be. Nobody say "I did a math today" because it refers to the subject, not an instance of it.

    1. Re:Unnecessary pluralization by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Maths is the correct short form of mathematics (notice the "s" on the end of both words) in the English language. Only ignorant Americans say "math", as though it were the only one.

      Do you study econs and physs too? Why leave the s on mathematics but not economics or physics or any other word in the language for that matter. The word math is plural and understood to be. Nobody say "I did a math today" because it refers to the subject, not an instance of it.

      Wrong, wrong, wrong.

      Maths is the correct abbreviation. You wouldn't say "I have a mathematic class today" because that's incorrect. "Mathematics" both singular plural and "mathematic" is not a word, you would shorten it to be conjugated with an s as there is no singular form without one.

      "Math" is simply a butchering of the English language.

      Economic is the singular, economics is a plural, so the same rule as mathematics does not apply as the . Physics is both singular and plural, but because the abbreviation ends in an "s" already, an additional "s" is simply redundant.

      Finally, yes "I attended a Maths class today" is correct and proper English.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    2. Re:Unnecessary pluralization by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The word math is plural

      No it isn't. You can't have one math, half a math or 17.3 math.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:Unnecessary pluralization by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Economic is the singular, economics is a plural

      Twaddle. Have you ever studied an economic?

      Economic is an adjective: the Honda Civic is economic to run.

      Generally names of academic disciplines & subjects are uncountable nouns.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:Unnecessary pluralization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finally, yes "I attended a Maths class today" is correct and proper English.

      Please take your "proper Queen's English" and go sit on the pointed end of the crown....

      Why can't you just let people speak like they want to speak? Why do you discriminate? You are rude.

    5. Re:Unnecessary pluralization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maths is the correct short form of mathematics (notice the "s" on the end of both words) in the English language. Only ignorant Americans say "math", as though it were the only one.

      Do you study econs and physs too? Why leave the s on mathematics but not economics or physics or any other word in the language for that matter. The word math is plural and understood to be. Nobody say "I did a math today" because it refers to the subject, not an instance of it.

      The word “mathematics” can be considered as a singular and as a plural noun. Nobody shortens economics or physics.

    6. Re:Unnecessary pluralization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Little hint: Not all English words have consistent forms or tenses. You should have learned that in kindergarten.

      And incidentally, I have NEVER heard anyone say "phys" or "econ". They might abbreviate it like that in some writing, but it's not spoken.

      "Maths" is correct. "Math" is what illiterate people say.

    7. Re:Unnecessary pluralization by sjbe · · Score: 1

      he word “mathematics” can be considered as a singular and as a plural noun. Nobody shortens economics or physics.

      People shorten the word economics to econ all the flipping time. Wander into any business school for about 20 seconds if you don't believe me. I used the shortened version of physics as an extreme example of why maths is not a contraction.

      Mathematics is both singular and plural. Math is also singular and plural AND it is a short version of both mathematics and mathematical. Maths is not a contraction as some here are claiming though it is a form of abbreviation. And frankly it just sounds silly like the speaker has a lisp.

  49. Brand New Information... by Unknown1337 · · Score: 1

    This didn't need a study, a little common sense would have sufficed. Students who aren't invested in their own learning/future -distracted, disinterested or otherwise- will obviously not score well when tested on the material. Don't blame the laptops, blame the kids without focus dedication or self control.

    1. Re:Brand New Information... by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      RTFA:

      "Thus students who brought their laptops to class to view online course-related materials did not actually spend much time doing so, and

      furthermore showed no benefit of having access to those materials in class."

  50. Not faster than the pen by sjbe · · Score: 1

    In high-school tier, math equations are easy to type.

    You type derivatives and integrals? Not to mention geometry and trig. What kind of weak math were you taking in high school? And even the equations that are easy to type are generally still easier to write with a pen/stylus.

    In college tier, you probably should have a copy of Matlab, Mathematica or some other similar program that makes it easier to type those equations. If not, that's a case to have subsidized software infrastructure.

    Why would I buy a heavy duty program like that to take notes? It's faster and more helpful to do it on paper. There isn't a program I've ever seen that is as fast to write equations as a pen and paper. I'd love it if there were one but nobody has made it yet. Not even the current generation tablet computers have nailed that particular problem adequately.

    In case of a diagram, there's MsPaint. Or if necessary, you can take said diagram from the textbook instead.

    Great, now you want people to take notes in two applications at the same time? No thanks.

  51. The problem is lectures, not laptops by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

    Humans just can't concentrate on a speaker for very long before their minds get bored and wander. As a communications channel, speech is slow compared to the rate at which we can process information. Even for dull folks.

    There are endless theories about how to adjust for this, but generally the answer is frequent breaks and practical work between brief lectures. Brief as in '15 minutes is pushing it quite a bit'.

    And of course you could always put institution-owned computers at the desks with limited software and access, dumping student work to an externally-accessible file share.

    1. Re:The problem is lectures, not laptops by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      As opposed to all those other people who attended lectures before them without laptops and where able to concentrate and do well in the class. Moron.

    2. Re:The problem is lectures, not laptops by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      >As opposed to all those other people who attended lectures before them without laptops and where able to concentrate and do well in the class. Moron.

      Distraction issues due to boredom predate computers in the classroom and have always been an issue with student's learning efficiency... computers give us something to keep us from returning focus to the lecture after we've already drifted away.

      If you were smarter, maybe you'd have been able to figure that out on your own instead of calling me a moron because you couldn't.

    3. Re:The problem is lectures, not laptops by geekmux · · Score: 1

      >As opposed to all those other people who attended lectures before them without laptops and where able to concentrate and do well in the class. Moron.

      Distraction issues due to boredom predate computers in the classroom and have always been an issue with student's learning efficiency...computers give us something to keep us from returning focus to the lecture after we've already drifted away.

      Teaching intervals of 30 minutes used to be an efficient length of time to absorb information.

      Computers have managed to decimate that 30-minute attention span to about 3 minutes. It's fucking pathetic how quickly people drift away these days. In any other time in history, this lack of an ability to focus and pay attention would have been classified as some form of mental retardation. Now, it's practically fashionable and socially acceptable to have this trait, probably because of the obscene profits made by treating this thing we now call ADHD, along with the popularity of abusing Ritalin as a fucking "study aid".

      TL; DR - The intelligent mind is never truly bored. Those who find themselves bored quite often, are likely idiots.

    4. Re:The problem is lectures, not laptops by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      >Computers have managed to decimate that 30-minute attention span to about 3 minutes. It's fucking pathetic how quickly people drift away these days. In any other time in history, this lack of an ability to focus and pay attention would have been classified as some form of mental retardation.

      I'm more or less in agreement. Compare Mr. Wizard to Bill Nye the Science Guy. Bill Nye's show was not a great achievement in teaching kids, it was a symptom of a failure to raise them properly.

      >Now, it's practically fashionable and socially acceptable to have this trait, probably because of the obscene profits made by treating this thing we now call ADHD, along with the popularity of abusing Ritalin as a fucking "study aid".

      First, I'm not sure it's that bad, and second, don't be too quick to judge on ADHD. While there may be over-diagnosis of the younger and abuse by the older, it IS a thing, and various stimulants do help those kids handle environmental stimulation better so they can socialize properly and achieve more in school.

      >TL; DR - The intelligent mind is never truly bored. Those who find themselves bored quite often, are likely idiots.

      Now that's complete bullshit.

    5. Re:The problem is lectures, not laptops by geekmux · · Score: 1

      >Now, it's practically fashionable and socially acceptable to have this trait, probably because of the obscene profits made by treating this thing we now call ADHD, along with the popularity of abusing Ritalin as a fucking "study aid".

      First, I'm not sure it's that bad, and second, don't be too quick to judge on ADHD. While there may be over-diagnosis of the younger and abuse by the older...

      Gosh, I can't imagine why I would have been quick to judge. Yes, perhaps you're right. Let's give Peac, er I mean Profits a Chance. After all, billionaires haven't become trillionaires yet.

      >TL; DR - The intelligent mind is never truly bored. Those who find themselves bored quite often, are likely idiots.

      Now that's complete bullshit.

      Not if you actually think about it. FYI, this belief predates computers by at least a few decades, and long before social media narcissism and internet addiction warped the very fabric of society.

  52. There are exceptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe there are certain situations where laptops should be allowed. Certain people with disabilities that involve motor skills do benefit from having a laptop since it helps them write. But it does require discipline and those who are ruining it for everyone else should be disciplined. Technology is a wonderful thing and should be embraced--not hindered.

  53. Re:Love technology, but this is true by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    "Not everyone learns with paper and pen. "

    Dumbest statement ever. Nice job Potsy...

  54. Re:Love technology, but this is true by geekmux · · Score: 1

    Not everyone learns with paper and pen.

    We have the last 1,000+ years of human learning as evidence to validate how false this statement truly is.

    Today? I'd turn on voice recognition for the notes, maybe even video the lecture, and sit back and concentrate on the information without having to even think about typing it.

    Today? You'll speak to the lawyer representing the person you wish to record, along with reviewing your student handbook regarding the rules of audio or video recordings. You should think about how consent and copyright laws work.

  55. In fact eh? by strikethree · · Score: 1

    and in fact students would be better off leaving their laptops in the dorm during class."

    You don't say? A fact you say? Okay then.

    I love it when research justifies such conclusions unambiguously. God forbid I should need to weigh facts against each other and come to my own conclusion about what is better or not.

    Thanks unknown researcher. You are awesome. That is one less thing I need to think about today. If only more researchers were like that.

    --
    "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  56. Laptops don't belong in schools. by DMJC · · Score: 1

    I was diagnosed with a handwriting disability in year 12 (final year of high school). I was given a laptop to use at school. That laptop did more 3d modelling and Linux tinkering than it ever did the work assigned in Class. Ironically I now work as a network engineer and some of our clients are schools. In my opinion laptops just do not belong in schools at all and schools shouldn't have access to the internet. They should have a very tightly locked down network with 0 social media access and only access to academic materials. This is a major problem with modern schooling which needs to be addressed. Too many idiots think that kids need access to everything and that it's bad to limit what they can buy/use. Sure they filter offensive content in schools, but they won't censor the mundane/unimportant garbage that distracts from school work. Maths, Reading, Writing, these are king, nothing else will help you more in life. If I could change anything about my time in school I would get proper help with my mathematics. I have big ideas I've always wanted to pursue and I am completely hobbled by how bad my algebra/trigonometry skills are. Kids that dream of being game developers and engineers are being let down every day by distractions in classrooms and bad maths teachers. Computers don't help maths students.

    1. Re:Laptops don't belong in schools. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      If I could change anything about my time in school I would get proper help with my mathematics.

      It's not too late. There are plenty of people who tutor school level maths. You could engage the services of one if you want to get what you missed out on.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  57. And... by antdude · · Score: 1

    Smartphones, tablets, etc. Same at work. :P

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  58. Re:Free proxy? Great study. by Lanforod · · Score: 1

    asking students to voluntarily login to a proxy server at the start of each class,

    Let me guess, this proxy lets students on to sites they wouldn't have had access to if they were on the school's network instead.

    big difference between a university and a high school. A normal university won't restrict sites.

  59. Re:Free proxy? Great study. by omnichad · · Score: 1

    True, but neither the headline or 2-paragraph summary mentions what level this study was done at. Am I supposed to read the articles now?

  60. 25 years and all is the same by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

    25 years ago, in an "Engineering Management" course that I was forced to take, there was a guy with one of those giant, primitive laptops. He spent every moment typing lecture notes, correcting his typos, formatting his notes, saving various file versions... You get the idea.

    I asked him why he was wasting his time taking notes on a computer, when it was far faster to just scribble-down your own mental paraphrasing of the professor's lecture – with the bonus that this process requires thought, whereas transcribing a lecture word-for-word gains you nothing. With a huff, he said that with electronic notes, he had access to all of his notes, for any class he had ever taken, stored forever. LOL.

    I don't know if he can still open his WordStar documents, but I do know that he did not do well in that "easy-A" class. I think he got a C.

  61. Re:Love technology, but this is true by nephilimsd · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure why you say his comment is dumb. When I was in college, if I tried to take notes, I'd inevitably end up with less understanding than if I was simply paying attention and interacting with the instructor when I didn't understand something. Taking notes meant I went from actively listening to passively listening while I tried to transcribe the words as quickly as possible. It didn't matter whether I was typing or writing, it was the act of writing that seemed to induce this response. Even worse, because I had no understanding of the material by the end of the lecture, the notes rarely even made any sense to me later. Different strokes for different folks.

  62. Re:Disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good job you were here with your opinion to refute this actual research on the subject, otherwise we might have accidentally reached a conclusion based on evidence!

    I am a lecturer who also design electronic learning systems; the number one problem we have is distraction, the number two is plagiarism. Miniquiz? Survey? Instant-response problems? Answers immediately shared on the unofficial class chat, almost everyone submits same answers. We use question banks that randomly picks problems for each student and randomises answers for multiple-choice problems, but it just slows down the plagiarism a little at the cost of much more prep time.

    Some people are terrible at multitasking, and some are extremely terrible. The myth that you can pay attention to a complex subject whilst listening to music in one ear and chatting on social media is extremely harmful to education. I've had students come to me and complain that the kid in the row ahead of them is playing Overwatch or watching porn, and it's causing them distraction issues. Although it's mostly harming the student who isn't paying enough attention, as educators we try and create an engaging environment conductive to learning, and network access often undercuts that more than it helps. It's infeasible to actually do anything about it, because there are many very valid uses of the same technology, some of which you have highlighted, but we shouldn't pretend that it isn't a problem.

  63. Distractions... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > it more often reflects engagement with social media, YouTube videos, instant messaging, and other nonacademic content

    Well, no shit, there's nothing else to say about this particular story beyond this, really.

    It's been well over 20 years now I've been in college, and I can tell you there was no social media for me to waste time on back then, nor YouTube, and while there were forms of instant messaging such as IRC, I didn't have the wireless connectivity to use it. If you allow yourself to be distracted in a class environment, of course you're going to be better off without the devices that provide this distraction. That includes phones and tablets. If you don't have the discipline, leave that crap at home.

    Bonus points: Even as adults today, I hear from way too many people who claim to be so busy they have no time left at the end of every day to enjoy the simple things, yet they're the ones who keep talking about things they've seen on Facebook. No, *I* didn't see any of that useless shit firsthand, and no, I don't consider myself to be enriched in one form or another you tell me about it. If you don't use that shit, you can automatically gain a few hours worth of free time every day.

    And ban this shit from the workplace while you're at it.

    Needless to say, why yes, I *would* like you to get off my lawn.

  64. Re:You don't bring a laptop to class to pay attent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > As it is, if you've got an audience full of people staring at their laptop instead of staring at you, it's them gently telling you that what you are saying is less important to them than whatever is on their screen

    You're delusional. The reality is that this is people who would be glued to their screens whether what you're telling them is important or not.

  65. Phones a bigger problem by mz721 · · Score: 0
    Not that many kids use laptops in class now. That's very 2005. Mostly they sit there snapchatting and facebooking on their phones, often with a blank paper notebook in front of them. Quite a few pretend to take notes on a Surface or something similar. No point removing laptops and keeping tablets and/or phones. You can see it. They're physically in the class but they're not 'there'. Of course, this is not true for all students, just a significant fraction; say a third to a half.

    The idea of using a Surface to annotate notes downloaded from the LMS is nice, but in practice too many students lack the discipline to leave their messages alone while they do it. Divided attention is little better than inattention. I would love to run one physics tutorial group with latest tech and a second one with paper and basic scientific calculators only, and see what happens. Ah well. Ethics approval...

  66. Re:Love technology, but this is true by DarkVader · · Score: 1

    There is ZERO evidence that writing down things as they're spoken is a valid learning technique for the entirety of the human population. I am living evidence that it does in fact NOT work for everyone, and in fact hampers learning for some people.

    Taping lectures has been a thing for as long as there have been tape recorders. While I can't say that a student handbook doesn't exist that prohibits it, I've certainly never seen one. And I would very seriously doubt that one exists that prohibits speech to text transcription, there's certainly no law against it anywhere in the US, probably not in the world.

    And there is no expectation of privacy in a lecture hall. Good luck with those lawyers, they're not going to do much good. Add in that most professors, offered the chance to have their lecture recorded on video at no cost, will respond by asking you where you'd like them to stand, and could they please have a copy.

    Consent: Not required for video at all, not required for audio recording in most states (in one party consent states, if I'm in the room and I say one word, I'm a party to the conversation), not required for speech to text anywhere it would not be required for audio, and probably not required anywhere.

    Copyright: Attaches to the recording, not to the lecture - the recording is what affixes it in a tangible means of expression. Not applicable if I'm recording for personal use anyway. Fair use applies to educational use, so I can share it with my study group without question. Personality rights don't apply if I'm not publishing it.

  67. I know, you didnt have 'lectricity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course you went old skool. You have a 4 digit UID. You're old and should feel old for being old. Things have changed, gramps, and we don't do things like you did "back in the day." You're advocating for doing things the old way because that's all you know. It's the exact opposite of innovation and the kind of complacency that has brought about the demise of so many giants. You or fellow geezer will invariably claim that things were "better" back in your day so you must be right, but statistics tell us our numbers today are better in most every category. So step aside, old timer, and let us younguns do the heavy lifting while you bitch incessantly about it.

    1. Re:I know, you didnt have 'lectricity by Tomahawk · · Score: 1

      I didn't bitch about anything. I did say that "sometimes" the old ways are the best. Sometimes implies a minority of things, thereby I'm saying that the majority of things are enhanced by technology.

      You see, back in my day, we were thought how to read properly and completely...

  68. I smell Bengay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't see any use, gramps, because you're old. The eyesight isn't what it used to be and all that. So just like I told another 4 digit old bastard a few threads up, we aren't doing stuff your way any more. You're irrelevant. Our statistics are better than yours. You'll continue to suck up oxygen to sustain your endless bitching while OUR technology, products, and labor keep your old ass living until 100. And we'll be happy to do it, but you should be happy instead of crotchety. The world "you" built is slipping away just like you are. Enjoy the time you have left and stop shitting on others' parades.

  69. Re:In other news, by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

    Water is wet. More at 11 PM.

    Unless it was made by melting dry ice. :D

    --
    This space unintentionally left blank.
  70. Re:Love technology, but this is true by DarkVader · · Score: 1

    Which is exactly my issue. I found that by far the most effective technique was to listen to the lecture, and type a few keywords in TeachText to jog my memory.

    In the classes I had with study sessions, I'd be explaining the material to the other students, and they'd ask me for a copy of my notes. I'd show them the screen, they'd say "never mind".

    If I tried to do the same thing on paper, it would block everything else out, I'd have garbage notes and not know what happened in class.

    The thing I liked best was when the prof would hand out the lecture notes at the start of class, then immediately start a lecture/discussion. There was no need to even think about writing anything, because it was all there in the handout.

  71. CS Classes will be Fun! by n329619 · · Score: 1

    Until you find out that you can't ctrl z and compile on the paper.

  72. Illogical contractions by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Maths is the correct abbreviation

    You are claiming it is a contraction, not merely an abbreviation. Typically when you do a contraction you put in an apostrophe to indicate the missing letters. So the proper contraction would be "math's" not "maths" if you want to get pedantic about it. Of course common usage in the UK allows for dropping the apostrophe but that doesn't make it technically correct if you give half a shit about consistent grammar. Mathematics is both singular and plural as it refers to both the subject as a whole (singular) and the components of that subject (plural). Likewise "math" is both singular and plural in the same way. Adding the s on the end does not add any value to the contraction because unlike other contractions (it is = it's != its) it doesn't change the meaning. So why add an unnecessary s?

    What really blows your argument out of the water is that it is NOT a contraction. People use maths as a short version of both mathematics and mathematical. So it cannot be a contraction, it has to be something else. To my mind it's just unnecessary complication.

    "Mathematics" both singular plural and "mathematic" is not a word, you would shorten it to be conjugated with an s as there is no singular form without one.

    Mathematic is not a word but math is the most sensible shortening of the word mathematics. Math also is a proper shortening of the word mathematical. Do you shorten mathematical to mathl? Math is a sensible shortening of both mathematics and mathematical. Maths is not. If you want a contraction then you need to throw an apostrophe in there to indicate letters are missing. (yes we all understand what you mean but english is inconsistent enough without you aiding the process)

    Economic is the singular, economics is a plural

    Economics is both singular and plural depending on usage Anyway missing the point. You don't shorten Economics to Econs. You don't shorten Physics to Physs. QED it is illogical to shorten Mathematics to Maths.

    Finally, yes "I attended a Maths class today" is correct and proper English.

    In England maybe. Definitely not in the US. If you say I went to maths class in the US people are going ask you when you developed a lisp.

  73. Econ by sjbe · · Score: 1

    And incidentally, I have NEVER heard anyone say "phys" or "econ". They might abbreviate it like that in some writing, but it's not spoken.

    If you haven't heard someone shorten economics to econ in the spoken language you clearly have never actually studied the subject or been inside of a business school. The word economics is routinely shortened to econ when talking about the subject.

    "Maths" is correct. "Math" is what illiterate people say.

    "Maths" is what illogical people say who want to sound like they have a lisp. Maths is only "correct" if you live in england or parts of the commonwealth. Say it in the US and they'll look at you like you just grew horns.

    1. Re:Econ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maths is what English speakers everywhere in the world say. The incorrect "math" is only used in the USA. You backward idiots aren't even using the metric system.

  74. Re:Free proxy? Great study. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What makes you think it wasn't just a squid instance running on the school's network? That would be the path of least resistance: free, no legal hassle with student info going to a third party, etc. Alas the article doesn't elaborate and I don't have a login to the Pubmed/SAGE cartel to read the actual study.

  75. Bad studies produce bad data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Measuring internet usage is a terrible way of attempting to determine how students are using their laptops in class. Services like Facebook and its messenger send and receive data constantly whether you are actually actively using them or just have it running in the background. Conversely downloading the profs notes and powerpoint slides and following along can use only seconds on actual internet time even if they are diligently reading along and annotating them on their hard drive the entire class.

    I've sat through enough lectures with students zoned out on Facebook to know that it is a genuine problem (though I suspect those students would have skipped class or distracted themselves in other ways in the past) but Social 'Scientists' need to stop performing 'studies' when they have no understanding of the underlying technologies or concepts because their 'results' are worse than useless because they have no bearing on the reality and create false beliefs and narratives.

  76. Someone Spent Time/Money On This Study? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most students would just have their phones out, if the laptop was not there. The laptop and the cell phone are merely distractions. Kids are likely to pay attention based on their own desire, more than some ridiculous rule made up by someone who is not currently a student of college age. The bottom line? Students pay attention because they want to, not because they are forced to. The laptop is not the problem. It never was, and it never will be.

  77. Can you whitelist/blacklist? by barrygrommit · · Score: 1

    Pardon my lack of technical expertise here. I am assuming these students are connecting via WiFi, which goes through a router. Isn't it possible to whitelist only those sites you want to make available to the students, and blacklist everything else? Aren't these just router settings?