Luxembourg Just Passed A New Asteroid Mining Law (engadget.com)

Remember when NASA visited an asteroid with $10 quintillion worth of minerals? Now the lucrative asteroid-mining industry is being pursued by "the European banking hub with a population not much bigger than Albuquerque's," reports Bloomberg, as low-cost reconnaissance missions are already looking "increasingly feasible." An anonymous reader writes: Last week Luxembourg's parliament unanimously passed an asteroid mining law (which goes into effect Tuesday) "that gives companies ownership of what they extract from the celestial bodies..." according to Engadget. "Luxembourg's law is pretty similar to the one President Obama signed back in 2015 in that it gives mining companies the right to keep their loot. Both of them also take advantage of a loophole in the UN's Outer Space Treaty, which states that nations can't claim and occupy the moon and other celestial bodies. They don't give companies ownership of asteroids, after all, only the minerals they extract.. Unlike the U.S. version, though, a company's major stakeholders don't need to be based in Luxembourg to enjoy its protection -- they only need to have an office in country."

Bloomberg reports that the law "could serve as a model for other small countries hoping to explore asteroids -- and to get a piece of the booming space business," since the tiny country is also offering to buy equity stakes in any companies which relocate to Luxembourg. "Luxembourg's success in attracting these companies should show other small countries that space isn't just for superpowers any more... Competition has made space achievable for many more companies, and for the countries that support them."
For the last few years Luxembourg has begun quietly investing in asteroid mining, including a joint venture with "Deep Space Industries" to build a spacecraft to test asteroid-mining technologies -- while another collaboration with Kleos Space is working on "in-space manufacturing technology."

Comments

Bullshit much?

[Anonymous Coward]

"They don't give companies ownership of asteroids, after all, only the minerals they extract.."

The treaty:
"outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means OF USE or occupation, or BY ANY OTHER means;"

Space mining is illegal under the treaty we/they signed up to, if you don't like it, negotiate a new treaty.

*However*, these companies are NOT about mining, they are about selling shares in stuff that sounds plausible. They are really just stock scam by space mining companies. Luxembourg wants in on it. In effect its staking a claim in the claim staking business.

Re:Bullshit much?

[DivineKnight]

I'm sure that the first country / corporation that can regularly make (monthly, weekly, daily) trips to the asteroid field (any of them) in a self-sustaining and relatively error-free manner will totally care what is written in that {treaty, law, etc.}. I'm also sure that they will do a long-term study of the ramifications of mining our asteroid belts. /s

Re:Bullshit much?

[NoNonAlphaCharsHere]

Take a look at maritime law for plenty (~600 years) of examples. The whole notion of ship's registry or its flag state tells you where all this is going. Luxembourg is simply making a play to be the Liberia of the future space merchant fleet.

Re:Bullshit much?

[sysrammer]

+1 insightful. It's just business.

Re:Bullshit much?

[Anonymous Coward]

The UN has no teeth.

Whoever gets to an asteroid and manages to mine it and do something useful with the spoils, will be so much technologically advanced, that no-one else will be able to do anything about it.

Re:Bullshit much?

[stealth_finger]

"They don't give companies ownership of asteroids, after all, only the minerals they extract.."

The treaty: "outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means OF USE or occupation, or BY ANY OTHER means;"

Space mining is illegal under the treaty we/they signed up to, if you don't like it, negotiate a new treaty.

I'm sorry, what part of what you posted says mining is illegal under the treaty? If it says that specifically some where else then post that bit. Nothing about that bit you pulled out even says that SpaceRockCo can't land on any asteroid, or body for that matter and say "this is ours, fuck off, we're not a nation"

Re:Bullshit much?

[johannesg]

The point of the outer space treaty is to avoid the situation where one country claims an entire planet or moon or asteroid for themselves, so that other countries no longer have access to its resources. The whole point is cathegorically not to make all of space off-limits to human use, including research and industrial uses.

In other words, you can go out there and mine asteroids, and you will be able to sell the minerals because you will own them. However, you cannot claim an entire asteroid, so if another country wants to set up shop on the same asteroid, they are free to do so.

Presumably, future treaties will need to work out how to deal with the inevitable conflict.

Re:Bullshit much?

[Applehu Akbar]

The Treaty prevents Earthly countries from dividing up space for themselves or from weaponizing it, which was the big fear as it became apparent that the US would be first to place astronauts on the Moon. It does not prevent private companies from exploiting space resources.

Re: Bullshit much?

[ralphsiegler]

How funny, you're imagine the highlighted words in a treaty have the common meanings you imagine and so then exclude mining. No, law and especially treaties don't work that way. Mining is fine, actually been done already by a certain point of view.

Re:Bullshit much?

[K. S. Kyosuke]

The treaty: "outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means OF USE or occupation, or BY ANY OTHER means;" Space mining is illegal under the treaty we/they signed up to, if you don't like it, negotiate a new treaty.

I find it funny that you're saying that mining in space is illegal and then you're trying to support it by quoting a treaty that says that mining, a.k.a. "use", does not imply the right for national appropriation.

Re:Bullshit much?

[drinkypoo]

Nothing about that bit you pulled out even says that SpaceRockCo can't land on any asteroid, or body for that matter and say "this is ours, fuck off, we're not a nation"

Sigh. Yes, yes of course it does. Claiming you're not a nation or not affiliated with a nation doesn't make it so. Either you're still affiliated with a nation, in which case it will be considered appropriation by your nation, or you will be considered to be a nation, and then they'll just send you a rocket, or a rock.

Re:Bullshit much?

[DigiShaman]

In the US at least, land ownership is entirely different than mineral rights. Both can be owned independently.

If I'm reading this right, this is just an expanded form of mineral rights, but in space. Speaking of, now you're going to need space mercs to protect your mining operation. Feed them well.

Re:Bullshit much?

[CrimsonAvenger]

you will be considered to be a nation,

In which case, you won't be bound by a Treaty that you haven't signed....

Re:Bullshit much?

[DRJlaw]

outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means OF USE or occupation, or BY ANY OTHER means;

Sorry, but you cannot validly convert a dependent clause into an independent clause by simply ignoring the independent clause.

Private "appropriation" by the exertion of labor upon natural resources, i.e. Locke's "labor mixing" theory of property, is well known and is not the same as national appropriation where a sovereign entity claims exclusive domain over a natural resource, even an unworked one.

Space mining is illegal under the treaty we/they signed up to, if you don't like it, negotiate a new treaty.

Outer space is essentially mare liberum under the treaty, just as the high seas have been for centuries. If you don't like it, negotiate a new treaty yourself.

Re:Bullshit much?

[stealth_finger]

"national appropriation by claim of sovereignty"

So where's the bit that says about "private appropriation by claim of whatever". You can't just be declared a nation by others so they can nuke you and if they do then you're not a party to this treaty so what then?

Re:Bullshit much?

[nospam007]

"Take a look at maritime law for plenty (~600 years) of examples. The whole notion of ship's registry [wikipedia.org] or its flag state [wikipedia.org] tells you where all this is going. Luxembourg is simply making a play to be the Liberia of the future space merchant fleet."

Exactly. I', from Luxembourg and even if the country is landlocked, there are more worldwide sailors organized in our unions than any other profession.
Also SES, the biggest satellite company worldwide is located here. (founded here in 1985)
It's business and it's going to be big.

Re:Bullshit much?

[argStyopa]

""outer space is not subject to national appropriation by..." (list methods)

NATIONAL.

The treaty prohibits NATIONAL appropriation.

There's nothing there that says Exxon or Apple or Google can't land on it and say it's theirs.

Defending that claim would be more complicated.

Individual property rights are more or less rooted in the grounds of basic jurisdictional national sovereignty - ie a person can only own land in country X because country X allows it. Essentially, the state 'wrapper' says that the state's machinery of law will defend a person's exclusive single ownership of that space based on their rules.

Outside of national territory, you can claim ownership of any property - indeed, there are pretty ample historical precedents for doing so based on getting there first, occupying it first, etc - but in practical terms there's nothing preventing anyone ELSE from making the same claim except your own willingness to do violence to defend it. Which of course invites (or predicts) that they should be ready to employ violence to take it over. Thus... the messy nature of reality.

Google can claim asteroid 123456. Then so can Apple. Then they can either coexist on it (which sort of defeats the point of 'claiming' it in the first place), or fight each other for it. Lacking a legal venue in which to have said battle, they'd pretty much only have the classic method.

Re:Bullshit much?

[oobayly]

Seeing as the whole (or main) idea of mining is space is that the materials can be used for construction in space (so we don't have to launch materials out of our gravity well) that would make it a bit pointless.

On the other hand, it might be possible to alter the orbit of the materials to lower the perigee to less than 100km (bonus points if you get the perigee to be inside the extents of your national border) and then immediately raise the orbit at the next apogee. That way they've left space and have been "relaunched"

Re:Bullshit much?

[penandpaper]

or fight each other for it.

Let the space wars commence!

Re:Bullshit much?

[edjs]

""outer space is not subject to national appropriation by..." (list methods)

NATIONAL.

The treaty prohibits NATIONAL appropriation.

There's nothing there that says Exxon or Apple or Google can't land on it and say it's theirs.

Nothing, except for Article VI:

Article VI
States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty. The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty. When activities are carried on in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, by an international organization, responsibility for compliance with this Treaty shall be borne both by the international organization and by the States Parties to the Treaty participating in such organization.

Re:Bullshit much?

[dpilot]

Who said a thing about getting mass down. It costs a lot of money to get mass off of the Earth. Making things for use off-Earth might most economically be done starting with raw materials from off-Earth. New 3D printing technologies might even make such manufacturing possible.

Re:Bullshit much?

[nospam007]

"Satellites in space are about information; absorbing photons and sending them back down (bent pipe) is one thing; thinking you're getting MASS back down? That's a mental disorder."

Nobody will get mass back down, other than dumping it on the heads of idiots of Kim Jong Un and you. :-)

Re:Bullshit much?

[nospam007]

"The Treaty prevents Earthly countries from dividing up space for themselves or from weaponizing it,"

That's why we'll call them "communication lasers" when the Kzin come.

Re:Bullshit much?

[peragrin]

The issue is converting material from raw to usable form generally requires a meteric shit ton of heat and energy. Now what would be awesome is is a smelter and material scientist got to spend some quality experiments in alloy making in space.

I know they would be at it a decade or more but it is the basic level science that needs to be done for future projects but isn't being done because it is dangerous and not fancy

Re:Bullshit much?

[religionofpeas]

There is no off-earth market, so nobody's going to fund an industrial base in space, which would cost an insane amount of money.

Re:Bullshit much?

[iggymanz]

I just found out there are on the order of 8 billion asteroids in the Oort Cloud. We're going to need more sharks

Re: Bullshit much?

[KGIII]

IIUC, smelting specifically requires oxygen and may not be needed, as they are pure. They still will need to be heated to their melting point. I have no idea how they are gonna try to do that.

Re: Bullshit much?

[KGIII]

Nah, just an eight bit ship from Atari.

Re: Bullshit much?

[dpilot]

No cloudy days on-orbit. Just a matter of how much power do you need and how much mirror do you need to grab that and focus it. There are of course probably one or two minor details with the idea of solar smelting... Sheffield/Pournelle did it in "Higher Education".

Re:Bullshit much?

[dpilot]

I think that if someone offered "tin cans" or trusses at a reasonable price, they would find buyers. Nice thing about either is that presuming you have a way to manufacture them, you're not limited by launcher or fairing size. I agree that there's a lot to be done to get on-orbit 3D printing of metal at that sort of physical scale. But I think if you had a product, if it looked good, if there was even a low-volume need, and if it were cheaper than launched, you could sell it.

Re: Bullshit much?

[KGIII]

That is science fiction. I am not the best source to ask. I'm going to ask the AC below, as they seem to know a bit more.

Re: Bullshit much?

[KGIII]

Okay - but then is smelting really needed? It's my understanding that some of these are pure. What are the logistics and times involved to gather that much energy, to melt the materials? Can they be realistically moved to an orbit that's closer to the Sun?

Re:Bullshit much?

[ChrisMaple]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magnetic_Telescope

Re:Bullshit much?

[Bengie]

You don't need to worry about environmental impact when mining in space. Then the mineral density comes to mind. There is an asteroid the size of Massachusetts that contains $10,000 quadrillion of iron. Assuming the normal elemental ratio, that would mean it contains about 100,000x more Gold than mined throughout all of human history, in a relatively small chunk of mass.

Re: Bullshit much?

[iggymanz]

our PC Jr. only supports 4 bit color, it's some protection

Re: Bullshit much?

[RockDoctor]

IIUC, smelting specifically requires oxygen and may not be needed, as they are pure.

You've got wires severely crossed. Rat's nested, even.

The only common metal processing operation that I can think of that specifically requires oxygen is the Bessemer converter, which burns the carbon (and other elements) out of liquid pig iron fresh from the smelter, prior to the addition of sufficient alloying elements to get the mix of steel that you want.

Smelting a metal-oxide ore (many of them) down to the metal alone requires a reducing agent that will react with the metal oxide to produce "reductant oxide" and metal. Far and away the commonest reductant is carbon (coke, coal, charcoal ...), but hydrogen and electricity are also used to produce significant metal tonnages.

Oh, there used to be a trick if you had a high-grade copper sulphide ore, where you could roast it in air to produce clouds of sulphur dioxide (for your sulphuric acid plant) and then when you'd converted about 2/3 of your ore charge from sulphide to oxides, close the tuyeres and roast the sulphide and oxide together to produce metal and more clouds of sulphur dioxide. As long as you captured 100% of the SO2 into the sulphuric acid plant, everyone was happy. But only capture 99%, and you've got a serious pollution problem for miles downwind. Not so popular these decades. But it kept the planet cool for a decade or so.

Re: Bullshit much?

[drinkypoo]

There is no reason whatsoever why my business's actions have to be on behalf of my nation.

I just explained what the reason was. No one is going to just let you do whatever you want, regardless of your fantasies of autonomous power.

I can guarantee you that.

How?

Re:Bullshit much?

[SandWyrm]

The treaty:
"outer space is not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means OF USE or occupation, or BY ANY OTHER means;"

Space mining is illegal under the treaty we/they signed up to, if you don't like it, negotiate a new treaty.

Sovereignty is established by your ability to defend, with force, that which you lay claim to.

Once outer-space mining becomes a thing, piracy will also appear. At that point all the kumbaya BS will give way to the reality of needing to protect, with force, that which people/companies have made the effort to extract for their own profit.

Re:Bullshit much?

[KingBenny]

i doubt this is a classic european type bullshit much law , check the best functioning countries in europe, luxembourg is about a dot-sized euh dot on the map yet it has held its own since like forever, for some reason i still dont understand why they adopted the euro, i dont think they needed it, UK, poland , i dont know norway, switzerland ... these people dont make rash decisions that dont benefit them. I doubt this will work out bad, eyes on the future. They're basically saying : if you're in the business, bring your money here , they always been a bankers niche, used to be ichiban place where all the surroundings took their off the books money (i speak decades ago since these days tax evasion is the number one terrorism after copying cds or downloading. im sure they thought it over and the legales will be dot-perfect text

Well thank goodness

[bobstreo]

The country with the biggest space program on the planet approved. /s

Does Luxembourg even have any satellites?

Re:Well thank goodness

[gl4ss]

well, they do have some satellite business. at least money from satellite business. but a company only needs to have an office there to claim advantage. think of the whole country like a big fucking coworking space or sealand or whatever..

now if a company has an office in some place where it is illegal to do this sort of thing then they would be fucked, despite it being legal in luxemburg.

all and all it's a pretty meaningless law until it becomes feasible and we can see what other nations declare about it. most probably whatever you can bring back you can keep. that is most probably what you can possess is going to be recognized to be yours whether it is on earth or in mars.

it's actually quite reasonable law to be honest, although fuck all matters anything.. because luxemburg is not a huge market for minerals, so it is unlikely you would be selling your loot there, meaning that their laws don't matter at all vs. french, uk or german laws.

Re:Well thank goodness

[FlyHelicopters]

History is full of declining empires that took a lot of other people with them... they also didn't have thousands of nuclear weapons...

Try again sunshine...

Re:Well thank goodness

[4im]

Biggest European satellite corporation is based in Luxembourg (SES Astra).

Actually, make that the largest satellite corporation, no other qualifier - SES is biggest, worldwide. And yes, they did conceive their first satellite from Luxembourg. Many space-oriented companies are based in Luxembourg, around SES.

Luxembourg may be a tiny country, but regarding space, they are a big player. And these space mining laws being put in place are there to attract more know-how to Luxembourg, not some mailboxes to siphon money.

Re:Well thank goodness

[FlyHelicopters]

Yes, but Russia is not our enemy, despite what the rich want us to believe.

Re:Well thank goodness

[stealth_finger]

Why do these little shitty European countries think they matter? They have no military worth mentioning. They don't have a space program and they don't have the power to enforce any of these laws. In fact, their entire existence relies on us. If we ever come into hard times we can take everything they have and there's absolutely nothing they can do to stop us.

George Bush Jr. is considered a war criminal in most of Europe and yet he can still walk around Europe freely because you pussies know you can't fuck with us.

That's why the EU is a thing.

Re:Well thank goodness

[stealth_finger]

If our economy tanks our massive military is coming over there to take your resources and use you as slaves.

Oh no, more broke immigrants heading to Europe's shores? Just what we need.

Re:Well thank goodness

[broknstrngz]

Yes,it does. It has the most satellites per capita in the world, I think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Well thank goodness

[nospam007]

"The country with the biggest space program on the planet approved. /s

Does Luxembourg even have any satellites?"

"SES operates more than 50 active and occasional use geostationary communications satellites with names including AMC, Astra, Ciel, NSS, Quetzsat, YahSat and SES,"
And that's just 1 company.

They reach 78 million homes in the US alone, a quarter billion in the rest of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....

Re:Well thank goodness

[HornWumpus]

Luxembourg is a tax shelter, like Monaco and Delaware. That's all.

Re:Well thank goodness

[HornWumpus]

In a similar vein, Delaware is half the US economy, and Liberia has the world's largest commercial ship fleet.

Flags of convenience have little to do with actual locations of economic activity. If the rest of the EU had more reasonable tax laws/rates, Luxembourg would have a much smaller economy.

Whenever the Eurotrash start bitching about America's low tax rates, remember, in Europe, when you get rich, the smart move is to buy Monaco citizenship and get 0% income tax rates.

One step closer...

[Urinal Pube]

to space pirates!!!! Sign me up.

Asteroid Mining Mayhem

[mentil]

If $10 Quintillion worth of asteroid minerals were brought down on Wall Street all at once, it would cause a huge crash in mineral value, an explosion of trading volume, and enough upheaval in the commodities market, one could call it destructive! In fact, it might crater the whole concept of commodities trading! That's why the old dinosaurs that run the finance sector are afraid of asteroid mining, it could spell their doom!

Re: Asteroid Mining Mayhem

[sysrammer]

I guess I'd better see to selling off all my shares in nickel & iron.

Re:Asteroid Mining Mayhem

[Anonymous Coward]

> If $10 Quintillion worth of asteroid minerals were brought down on Wall Street all at once [...]

Gah, I'd *love* to see that happen. I mean physically, not just financially.

Re:Asteroid Mining Mayhem

[religionofpeas]

If $10 Quintillion worth of asteroid minerals were brought down on Wall Street all at once, it would cause a huge crash in mineral value

I don't think we have to worry about this happening any time soon. There's a lot of mass * delta-v to deal with.

Re: Asteroid Mining Mayhem

[KGIII]

Well, we may see it happen, just not by our actions. We also probably won't see it for very long. I expect it'd kill most if us, if not all of us.

Re: Asteroid Mining Mayhem

[dunkelfalke]

Iron maybe, but not nickel - heavy metal will never die.

Re: Asteroid Mining Mayhem

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Time to invest in Nickel Maiden CDs?

Re:Asteroid Mining Mayhem

[careysub]

If $10 Quintillion worth of asteroid minerals were brought down on Wall Street all at once, it would cause a huge crash in mineral value, an explosion of trading volume, and enough upheaval in the commodities market, one could call it destructive! In fact, it might crater the whole concept of commodities trading! That's why the old dinosaurs that run the finance sector are afraid of asteroid mining, it could spell their doom!

None of this would or could happen.

The figures you see slung about on the "value" of asteroids have a high level of bogosity. They are always arrived at by multiplying the estimated total metal content by the current market value of the metal when available in market-ready form on the surface of the Earth. No one prices Earth based resources this way.

The resource being estimated for that particular case was the iron-nickel content of the largest asteroid of that type (Type M), which is 16 Psyche, which is in the main asteroid belt (read - large delta vee to bring the material to Earth). The entire world iron steel market is about $800 billion, which is 1.6 billion tonnes of iron and steel with an average market value of $500 per tonne.

By this type of calculation a common piece of sedimentary rock is worth $75 a ton for its iron content (15% Fe content) and an average chunk of the Earth's crust (5% iron) is worth $15. And by this calculation the upper 1000 meters of the Earth's continental crust is worth $100 quintillion dollars.

Why haven't these wild financial predictions already happened, since we are sitting on all this valuable iron for the taking? Similarly try to interest anyone in paying you $7.5 million for the 10 meter thick layer of sedimentary rock and soil on your 1 acre property for its iron content. Its real value for this is zero.

More commonly people talk about obtaining platinum group metals from asteroids since, unlike iron, they are scarce on the Earth's surface and rocky asteroids are richer in these metals than the available ores on Earth, by a factor of 10X or so. This means that the value of the metal content at current market prices is around $2000 a ton.

The amazing thing you won't find in going through scores and scores of web sites, and papers, is the cost of either extracting the metals in space, or the cost of bringing the whole asteroid back to Earth. One of the few actual projects proposed to bring a small rock chunk (500 tonnes) to Earth is estimated at $2.6 billion, or a bit over $5 million a ton.

There seems little chance of actually being able to extract platinum metals, much less plain old iron, at a profit given that the ore value per ton of an asteroid is actually quite low. Multiplying a low value per ton by the high mass of an asteroid makes as much sense as a money losing sales operation "making it up in volume".

Finally, there is the basic economics of the markets. The value of the world iron market is $800 billion, the value of the world platinum metal market is about $30 billion. If you can introduce these metals at a cost much cheaper than current prices (there seems no chance of this happening with asteroid resources in the foreseeable future) then the cost will drop, usage will rise, existing producers will be put out of business, but there the size of the market is not going to grow very much. The market is not suddenly going to fork over a trillion dollars a year for cheap platinum, or ten trillion dollars for super-cheap steel.

Re: Asteroid Mining Mayhem

[sysrammer]

That's fine. Can I get my Nickelback?

You snooze, you lose!

[Gravis Zero]

I have it on good authority that Strong Badia (Population: Tire) has already claimed the vast fortunes of space. Luxembourg should have acted faster but you know, I overheard some protesters chanting "Free Tibet!" so maybe they should call China and claim it before someone else. ;)

Re:You snooze, you lose!

[stealth_finger]

I have it on good authority that Strong Badia (Population: Tire) has already claimed the vast fortunes of space. Luxembourg should have acted faster but you know, I overheard some protesters chanting "Free Tibet!" so maybe they should call China and claim it before someone else. ;)

Too late, I already nabbed it but you don't want any part in that mess, that's why I'm trying to get rid again but no takers.

Re:You snooze, you lose!

[johnsie]

Strongbad is missing in action. That makes it fair game, unless he decides to show up and reclaim his position.

Not much of a loophole

[aepervius]

How are they going to extract mineral without a permanent base (even if it is a fully automated one - without any human) to centralize the gathering, energy, reparation communication etc.... ? Occupy does not mean there are human there, occupy in this context means you are setting a base of operation belonging to an agent of a country - even a private person counts.

Re:Not much of a loophole

[HornWumpus]

You mean western greater Germany?

Old joke: During reunification all of Europe was discussing what to call the new Germany. Except Germany, who was discussing what to call France.

Corporate whore

[Anonymous Coward]

Luxembourg has been, at least after its deindustrialization (there was steel industry there) the corporate and finance whore in Europe (next to the City of London, that is). Raking in some profit at the detriment of the others.

And this is the work of... you guess it. Among others, it was Jean Claude Juncker who propelled this transformation. And now he's running around as "Mr. Europa", putting up a serious and concerned face and warning about populisms.

Reminds me of Emperor Nero, crying over burning Rome, in a fire he himself ordered to set.

Re:And the bureaucrats pat themselves on their bac

[sheramil]

I'm sure you like inventing fantasies in your mind,

Almost as much as the bureaucrafts from Luxembourg who think they have the power to dictate conditions billions of miles away...

but one relies on sovereigns to actually enforce the contract, and legislatures in representative democracies are the mechanism by which society produces a consensus view on how a particular are be governed.

To paraphrase President Jackson, "I see the Luxembourgers have made their decision. Now let us see them enforce it."

Sweet

[stealth_finger]

Sweet, so now all you need to do it make a way to get to the asteroids, make a way to extract materials, make a way to process the materials, make a way to store and transport the materials and then either get them back on earth or build a whole load of facilities in orbit all while having aerosmith playing on repeat.

Re:Sweet

[stealth_finger]

cold fusion?

Dangerous business

[Buchenskjoll]

Be careful of the Reavers...

Ahem. The UN (and everyone else. . .) is downhill

[Salgak1]

. . . . from any Asteroid Mining outfit. Threaten to de-orbit a large asteroid, or several large asteroids, onto irritating government capitol regions, and they'll back down. . .

The Somalia passes a law

[John Allsup]

The law states that companies own whatever the recover from derelict space vessels; and since outer space is beyond the jurisdiction of national courts, like international waters are, any space vessel is fair game.

There will be new laws and treaties long before actual space mining starts happening.

Re:The Somalia passes a law

[drinkypoo]

since outer space is beyond the jurisdiction of national courts, like international waters are, any space vessel is fair game.

What? Who told you that? Just try it, and see what happens to your little country.

There will be new laws and treaties long before actual space mining starts happening.

And there will be dire consequences for small nations that get too big for their britches.

Almost correct. . .

[Salgak1]

. . . the treaty prevents SIGNATORIES from dividing up space for themselves. Of course, should a mining base declare itself, oh, as the "High Orbital Republic of CisLunar", for example. . . . they wouldn't be bound. And with tens of billions worth of metals, SOMEONE will recognize them for a small cut of the action. . .

Re:Almost correct. . .

[drinkypoo]

Of course, should a mining base declare itself, oh, as the "High Orbital Republic of CisLunar", for example. . . . they wouldn't be bound. And with tens of billions worth of metals, SOMEONE will recognize them for a small cut of the action. . .

SOMEONE will show up and put them in their places, before they get the rock-throwers up.

Re:Almost correct. . .

[drinkypoo]

And if they were stupid enough to shoot off their mouths before the rock throwers were operational they deserve it.

They won't be permitted to operate without oversight. They won't even get off the ground without it. So how do you imagine they're going to keep it a secret, especially when any asshole with a telescope mounted on a satellite will be able to get crystal clear pictures of what they're doing?

Let me get this straight...

[sjbe]

So a country that doesn't have a meaningful space program (though does have some space related commerce) passes a law for a hypothetical mining activity that will not take place on a commercial scale during the lifetime of anyone reading this post. Why exactly do we care? I'm as positive about going into space as anyone here but this is simply not news.

We are ridiculously far from having the technology to mine in space on an economically meaningful scale much less the ability to turn mined minerals into useful products. Not saying it will never happen nor am I saying it's a bad idea but we are a looooong way from this being a meaningful thing to worry about. Right now we have the ability to send a smallish probe and maybe bring back a few core shallow core samples or rocks at ludicrous expense per kg. We don't have any equipment or experience in refining mined materials in zero-G into useful products nor any reasonable near term prospects of getting any. Nor do we have energy sources sufficient to do so in meaningful amounts unless you plan to send a very powerful nuclear fission reactor into space of a design that we've no experience building or maintaining. We could bring back the asteroid in whole or parts and drop it onto Earth's surface which is a terrible idea for a variety of reasons not the least of which is the fact that it is de-facto a WMD.

Space mining is a cool idea. Let's keep working on it. But perhaps touched with a tinge of realism about the timescale, economics, and technology requirements?

Re:Let me get this straight...

[networkBoy]

We are ridiculously far from having the technology to mine in space on an economically meaningful scale much less the ability to turn mined minerals into useful products. Not saying it will never happen nor am I saying it's a bad idea but we are a looooong way from this being a meaningful thing to worry about.

I respectfully disagree. I think technologically we are much closer than anyone realizes. Socioeconomically however... we're aeons away. If we had an Apollo program level of push we could be there in a decade, two tops. Thing is, no private enterprise has the capitol to do it, even if there is a huge ROI, the prime mover investment is simply too big to do.

Re:Let me get this straight...

[religionofpeas]

We don't have the technology to do it for an acceptable cost, even if we put Apollo levels of effort into it.

Re:Let me get this straight...

[networkBoy]

Define acceptable.
If you mean prime mover cost recovery in one lifetime? Then I agree, no we're not.

Of course Apollo costs were mind blowing too, so if you accept that prime mover costs are not required to be repaid, and will be sponged up by government then I think we could get there.

Mind, this is pie in the sky thinking, as there is *NO* way our current legislative bodies would fund something like this.

Re:Ahem. The UN (and everyone else. . .) is downhi

[drinkypoo]

. . . . from any Asteroid Mining outfit. Threaten to de-orbit a large asteroid, or several large asteroids, onto irritating government capitol regions, and they'll back down. . .

In this fantasy scenario of yours, only one group apparently has the technology to get up there and do things. That's not even how it is now. Why are you postulating such a ridiculous future? Simply because it makes your argument make sense? It doesn't, though.

Re:I can see the headlines

[shentino]

Mod parent up, obvious reference to Descent.

Not a loophole...

[Timothy2.0]

The supposed "loophole" in the Outer Space Treaty isn't a loophole.

Article VI states: "States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty."

In effect, while a private company can own a spacecraft, it's the state that's responsible for it so, no, Asteroid Mining PLC won't have legal standing to claim their mined goods.

Re:Not a loophole...

[MobyDisk]

Ultimately, if a company lands a ship on earth with a cargo bay full of something valuable that they mined from space, someone will buy it. You can't make a treaty that suspends international capitalism, it simply won't work.

Re:Bullshit much?Glass houses

[drinkypoo]

Would it be wise to try and send a rocket or a rock to someone who already is in a position with rockets and at least one rock they could use in retaliation?

It would be wise to do it ASAP to limit the number of rocks they can throw before you turn them into a vapor.

"Deep Space Industries"??

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that like Solaren that was supposed to have space-based solar power beaming down by 2016? Oh wait, that never happened either.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/30198977/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/pge-makes-deal-space-solar-power/

"Utility to buy orbit-generated electricity from Solaren in 2016, at no risk"

No result, either.

You Space Nutters are like religious madmen. When your predicted fantasy scenario doesn't materialize, you double up on the nonsense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

No, it is not worth 10 quintillion dollars

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Back in the days, in my dorm I had a cheaply made table fan with a metal grid. One day, on a whim, I touched the grill with the equally cheap line tester thingie. . I was shocked that I had not been shocked to death by that time, because I used to move the fan and touch the fan all the time it was plugged in. The multimeter showed it had the line voltage of 230 volts (It was in India). The moral of the story was that, the leakage current had very high voltage, but it you try to draw any current, very quickly the PD disappears.

Same way, if the asteroid is actually mined and all the material there is dumped in the open market, it will not fetch 10 quadrillion dollars. After all the sea water, so readily accessible, has 20 million tons of gold valued at 1 quadrillion dollars.

Re:No, it is not worth 10 quintillion dollars

[religionofpeas]

What that translates to in the real world is that we could use gold instead of copper from transmission lines

Bad example. Real transmission lines are made from aluminum, because the weight/current ratio is better. Gold would be a really bad material. It's too heavy and too soft.

The drop in market prices *is* the benefit of asteroid mining.

That may be true, but even at current prices it's not worth the effort, let alone at even lower prices.

Re:I can see the headlines

[fisted]

Why would you mod someone up for an arbitrary obvious reference?

Why do you have to point out there's a reference when it is obvious?

Re:Ahem. The UN (and everyone else. . .) is downhi

[drinkypoo]

If we can mine asteroids, then we can deorbit a big rock. We are after all imagining a future in which we're capable of asteroid mining, here. But you can't do it overnight, and you can't do it by wishing. You need equipment. People will know what you're about, and it will take you longer to drop a rock on them than it will take them to throw a nuke at you.

Re:I can see the headlines

[shentino]

Because I'm also pointing out that a different moderator modded them down, probably because they missed the reference.

late to the table

[Thud457]

I'm sure the SPACE NAVY of the Duchy of Gran Fenwick will continue to keep celestial order like they have for the last 55 years.

Re:Ahem. The UN (and everyone else. . .) is downhi

[HornWumpus]

How would they even know someone was moving a rock to hit the earth six+ months later?

The problem would be fine aim plus moving a big enough rock to matter.

Getting nuked in the meantime? No, orbital mechanics don't work like that. Nobody has 'Expanse' level engine efficiencies. Everybody would be moving in high efficiency orbits.

Re:"In name only" in some sense

[ChrisMaple]

...kill the UN, because that would require everyone leave.

Did you think before you posted?
If only one nation remained in the UN, it would cease to have any meaning.

If the US left the UN, the UN would lose about 1/4 of its funding - and that's only including the officially counted money that goes to the UN at the top, not various UN agencies. If in addition the US declared the UN persona non grata and evicted it from New York City, the UN for practical purposes would be an entity on paper only.

The UN is a legacy from when communication was neither fast nor dependable; it was obsolete before it was founded. It's time to be done with it; it's a monument to inefficiency and a home for spies.

Re:Ahem. The UN (and everyone else. . .) is downhi

[ChrisMaple]

The advantage of moving a small asteroid from the belt to a troublesome nation like Venezuela or Cuba is that clever use of orbital mechanics can be a substantial force multiplier. Whip a rock around the Mars gravity well.

Re:Bullshit much?Glass houses

[ChrisMaple]

And thus you see the mentality of a government. "We don't care if your efforts are going to provide great benefit to mankind. Do as we tell you or we'll kill you. Heck, we'll kill you anyway."

The economics make no sense

[sjbe]

I respectfully disagree. I think technologically we are much closer than anyone realizes.

Even if for the sake of argument I agree with you that we have some technology that could do the job sitting on the shelf today it STILL doesn't work for economic reasons. The cost to get into space is WAY too high and is likely to remain so even in spite of the efforts of SpaceX and others. Furthermore it's not enough to merely mine (which we cannot do), you also have to be able to process what you are mining. The only place we can do that at economically meaningful scale currently is back here on earth which means you have to drop rocks on earth from orbit intentionally. Dropping rocks from orbit is self evidently a terrible idea. Furthermore as long as it is cheaper to mine the same products here on earth there is no economic justification to go to the expense and risk of getting them from space even if technologically it is possible.

The reality is that we do not have the technology to economically mine in space and it's going to be many years before we get it. I very much doubt we will see economically profitable mining is space during the lifetime of anyone reading this without some sort of massive crash government program. I can conceive of it happening eventually but we're going to have to bootstrap a space economy and develop a lot of non-trivial technology first. I think the time scale for this sort of endeavor is going to be measured in decades or more probably centuries.

Re:Bullshit much?Glass houses

[drinkypoo]

And thus you see the mentality of a government. "We don't care if your efforts are going to provide great benefit to mankind. Do as we tell you or we'll kill you. Heck, we'll kill you anyway."

The first job of a government is to self-perpetuate. There are good reasons to stop new powers from coming to be, as well as bad ones. There are good reasons for them to come into being, as well as bad ones. We'll see which line of reasoning wins.