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Why Are There So Many Knobs in Audio Software? (theoutline.com)

John Lagomarsino, writing for The Outline: Skeuomorphic design, where user interfaces emulate the appearance of physical objects, has been popular for pretty much the history of personal computing. The ideas of "files," "folders," and the "recycle bin" in Windows could be considered skeuomorphs, intended to help transition early computer users from analog to digital, as could the idea of an "inbox" and "outbox" in email and the paperclip that symbolizes attachments. More recently, a lot of early iOS apps were famous for their heavy-handed skeuomorphic elements, with felt textures and chunky drop shadows. But no area of computing has so thoroughly gone for it more than audio software. The first Billboard #1 single that was recorded to a hard drive instead of tape was "Livin' La Vida Loca" in 1999; 18 years later, in 2017, most audio software still looks like the designers attempted to replicate physical equipment piece for piece on a computer screen. Faders, switches, knobs, needles twitching between numbers on a volume meter -- they're all there. Except you have to control them with a mouse. Winamp may have been Patient Zero in this gaudy epidemic, but it has spread far and wide. I spend a lot of my time mixing and editing audio, and that often involves having multiple audio plugins (essentially applications that run inside the main audio program) from multiple vendors running simultaneously. But all audio software, for what I suppose are historical reasons, features the most egregious skeuomorphic design in all of software. Alone, each plugin is hideous in its own unique way. A panel of 3D knobs here, a pixelated oscilloscope there.

214 comments

  1. Because... by Thelasko · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...so many users are knobs.

    I'll be here all week. Try the fish!

    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    1. Re:Because... by sh00z · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Because the author of the article is a complete tool who has never considered looking ad the advanced options available to him. Even Winamp (his poster child in this whine/rant) is fully configurable from the command line. Here's a hint: just google the phrase "(software name) CLI."

    2. Re:Because... by lgw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If your response to a usability complaint involves a command line in any way, you are part of the problem.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:Because... by skids · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, no.

      First, the author provides no solid complaint. Just that "there are knobs, and I don't know what most of them do". The latter is a matter of documentation, not UX, and for the former he offers zero in the way of alternatives. He complains that you have to control the knobs with a mouse... as opposed to what, real knobs? Does he suggest something like using mouseover-then-scrollwheel as opposed to drag-the-knob? No not even that. Instead he complains about retro app skins. At best he can point to a failure to herd cats into a more unified UX approach (even then, some behavioral variety may actually be desirable to help the muscle memory build.)

      Now if you are a live performance musician or soundboard operator, you want everything you normally tweak to be in a known location so your muscle memory can get you there. Does TFA want someone to open a search box, type the first few letters of a control, select it from a dropdown, and type in a numerical value in a popup? Or use a giant cascading menu? Or some sort of touch-and-hold-then-drag thing on an inaccurate laggy touchscreen? Good luck staying in the pocket with any of those schemes.

      No, you have two alternatives: 1) use a physical layout so your hands know where stuff is, either on the desktop or with peripherals and 2) use live coding... which, is indeed a CLI thing and very popular.

    4. Re:Because... by Pascoea · · Score: 1

      That is actually how my 13 year old mind read the title at first. I got through my first subsequent thought of "there are a lot of knobs in all kinds of software development" before I made the connection. (Cue Beavis and Butthead laugh.)

    5. Re:Because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever tried dragging and dropping a few thousand files at different places in the file system tree one at a time? Or from the same monster folder that you have to scroll like mad to pick a file?
      There are use cases for both GUI and command line interactions.

    6. Re:Because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) use a physical layout so your hands know where stuff is, either on the desktop or with peripherals and 2) use live coding [wikipedia.org]... which, is indeed a CLI thing and very popular.

      But if we did that, people would learn how to use the software, all the UXtards would be unemployed after the first release. Every time you master a user interface to the point that you can use muscle memory to accomplish tasks, or automate those tasks altogether by means of scripting, a UXtard loses its job. Please, think of the UXtards!

    7. Re:Because... by lgw · · Score: 3, Informative

      The latter is a matter of documentation, not UX

      Only slightly less bad than a command line is a UI where you have to read documentation.

      He complains that you have to control the knobs with a mouse... as opposed to what, real knobs?

      Knobs don't belong in UIs, full stop. Use sliders instead. They convey the same information, but are natural to use with the mouse.

      UIs should look like what other UIs on the same OS look like. Clarity and high contrast beats wood paneling.

      Now if you are a live performance musician or soundboard operator, you want everything you normally tweak to be in a known location so your muscle memory can get you there.

      Muscle memory won't carry over from a physical panel to a mouse. That's just not what muscle memory is. Awkward controls won't make things better.

      Putting the controls in about the same place on the screen as they are on the physical panel? Sure, that part makes sense. But knobs on a screen is just exasperating in its stupidity.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    8. Re:Because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, no.

      First, the author provides no solid complaint. Just that "there are knobs, and I don't know what most of them do". The latter is a matter of documentation, not UX, and for the former he offers zero in the way of alternatives. He complains that you have to control the knobs with a mouse...

      The complaint most of us have, I think, is that they require this odd circling motion with the mouse. It's much easier to accurately do a one-dimensional movement, such as dragging a slider or spinning a wheel (which is a knob, sideways)

    9. Re:Because... by thomst · · Score: 1

      skids scoffed:

      Actually, no.

      First, the author provides no solid complaint. Just that "there are knobs, and I don't know what most of them do". The latter is a matter of documentation, not UX, and for the former he offers zero in the way of alternatives. He complains that you have to control the knobs with a mouse... as opposed to what, real knobs? Does he suggest something like using mouseover-then-scrollwheel as opposed to drag-the-knob? No not even that. Instead he complains about retro app skins.

      Factually no. You're completely mischaraterizing the OP's complaint.

      First of all, he in no way says or implies "I don't know what most of them do." Full stop. Secondly, his complaint about being forced to use a mouse to adjust rotary knob-style controls is entirely valid - and many (if not most) VST audio plug-ins for DAWs provide NO scrollwheel functionality. You HAVE to move the damned knob around its full travel via click-and-drag (which usually means you have to "let go" at the 12:00 position, shift the mouse slightly to the right, "grab" the knob from the other side, and drag it back down to adjust it from 50% to 100%). It's cumbersome as all hell, and it's often tooth-grindingly difficult to properly fine tune levels on as many as a dozen or more knobs on a single effect, filter, amp emulator, etc in what is typically a chain of them - sometimes a very long chain of them.

      The same thing is true of plug-ins for AU, AAX and other formats, so ProTools users get to enjoy levels of frustration equal to those of we Cakewalk or Reaper users, too.

      Oh, and did I mention that usable documentation for audio plug-ins is as commonplace as saddle-trained unicorns?

      It's true that some clueful designers do allow you to click on a control, then use the keyboard arrows or numberpad to adjust its value. (Digitech's excellent floor effects editor springs to mind here.) They deserve kudos - but let me assure you that there aren't enough of 'em around to noticably diminish the kudo supply.

      Your comment makes it clear that you have little (by which I mean "zero") experience with professional audio recording, mixing, and mastering software - which, if you read TFS carefully, is the actual subject of the OP's complaint. What that means, in turn, is that you are completely unqualified even to express an opinion on the subject.

      Of course, this is /., so I'm sure you won't let THAT stop you ...

      --
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    10. Re:Because... by skids · · Score: 1

      his complaint about being forced to use a mouse to adjust rotary knob-style controls is entirely valid - and many (if not most) VST audio plug-ins for DAWs provide NO scrollwheel functionality. You HAVE to move the damned knob around its full travel via click-and-drag (which usually means you have to "let go" at the 12:00 position, shift the mouse slightly to the right, "grab" the knob from the other side, and drag it back down to adjust it from 50% to 100%).

      Congratulations. You just condensed TFA down to the length it probably should have been in the first place. In fact, there is more of value in your paragraph above than that entire article, as it actually describes a problem instead of just complaining about "damn knobs". Otherwise it is worthless snide drivel making fun of people for creating skinning art. Well, I guess it did serve as a pretty screenshot gallery.

      Now, you suggest one solution for fixing this type of UX knob. One that requires two hands, but still at least you suggest one. Others here seem to like the idea of replacing knobs with sliders. Still others are fine with knobs as long as after you click on them it is a linear motion to turn them, with the knob only serving to tell the app what thing to tune. Personally I'd say why make people click on them, just use the scrollwheel on whatever you are mouse over... and click/drag if you need to go fine grained.

      But you're right I don't use this kind of kit, so go argue it over with your compatriots and come back when you have some solid suggestions, then maybe someone who knows how to code will help you out.

    11. Re:Because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of audio software sends and receives midi control codes. A lot of ppl doing music have physical control surfaces. In theory you can enabled MIDI learn, twist a knob, and it's mapped to the software interface. Now you can control it with your hardware interface instead of the mouse. I think that's approximately what most people do. Or you can load maps for your hardware to software if it's a popular device/software combo.

      I will agree using the mouse to control knobs can get old pretty quick but if you do any serious work you probably have it mapped to hardware.

    12. Re:Because... by thomst · · Score: 1

      skids responded:>/p>

      his complaint about being forced to use a mouse to adjust rotary knob-style controls is entirely valid - and many (if not most) VST audio plug-ins for DAWs provide NO scrollwheel functionality. You HAVE to move the damned knob around its full travel via click-and-drag (which usually means you have to "let go" at the 12:00 position, shift the mouse slightly to the right, "grab" the knob from the other side, and drag it back down to adjust it from 50% to 100%).

      Congratulations. You just condensed TFA down to the length it probably should have been in the first place. In fact, there is more of value in your paragraph above than that entire article, as it actually describes a problem instead of just complaining about "damn knobs". Otherwise it is worthless snide drivel making fun of people for creating skinning art. Well, I guess it did serve as a pretty screenshot gallery.

      Now, you suggest one solution for fixing this type of UX knob. One that requires two hands, but still at least you suggest one. Others here seem to like the idea of replacing knobs with sliders. Still others are fine with knobs as long as after you click on them it is a linear motion to turn them, with the knob only serving to tell the app what thing to tune. Personally I'd say why make people click on them, just use the scrollwheel on whatever you are mouse over... and click/drag if you need to go fine grained.

      But you're right I don't use this kind of kit, so go argue it over with your compatriots and come back when you have some solid suggestions, then maybe someone who knows how to code will help you out.

      No, you still don't get it. Sorry.

      This stuff is almost all copyright-protected, proprietary software, not open source. Nobody can legally "fix" it except the company or individual who made it to begin with. The problem both the OP and I am complaining about is that the UI's are resolutely "pretty", not practical - and they're going to stay that way until the UI designers acquire a clue about usability.

      Don't hold your breath waiting for that.

      Basically, those of us who use pro audio software are S.O.L., because the highest-quality, most useful effects, etc. all suffer from this same design philosophy: Make the UI look as exactly as possible like the rack-mount hardware it emulates. And the hell with usablilty, as long as it's fucking pretty.

      Incidentally, I blame the Apple fanboy environment for that. Jobs himself was all about usability, but 3rd-party software designers seem to champion esthetics over ease of use. Because ProTools dominates the commercial recording studio marketplace (and because ProTools is first and foremost a Mac-native application that only gets ported to other platforms, rather than developed specifically for them), it's the Mac mindframe that dictates the look and feel of its plug-ins. Unfortunately, the VST crowd has adopted the "identical look-and-feel" paradigm as well - with the same tooth-grinding results for the actual users.

      I'm firmly of the opinion that software developers (and hardware developers, too, for that matter) ought to be legally required to eat their own dogfood in a production environment for a minimum of six months before being permitted to inflict their brainchildren on we poor mortals. I think it'd cut down on the amount of crappy UI's and broken functionality of commercial products by a good 99% ...

      BTW - the Digitech floor effects editor I mentioned does not require you to hold down the mouse button. Click on the control to highlight it and you're then free to use the up and down keys to change its value. (You can also use the mouse to do that, if you enjoy carpal tunnel syndrome, of course.)

      --
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    13. Re:Because... by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Knobs don't belong in UIs, full stop. Use sliders instead.

      Sliders mean precisely one thing in audio: attenuation.

      They convey the same information, but are natural to use with the mouse.

      No. To an audio engineer, they convey that they control is for adjusting the relative volume of a channel, because that's how we've used them for the last eight decades or so.

      UIs should look like what other UIs on the same OS look like.

      No, UIs should look like what other UIs on the same functional equipment look like. I mean, sure, there are the brands who have their "weird" controls, and every board puts the different functional blocks in different places, but a mixer channel is basically laid out the same regardless of who built it.

      Now if you are a live performance musician or soundboard operator, you want everything you normally tweak to be in a known location so your muscle memory can get you there.

      Well, yes. We don't exactly get much time to fix things before the audience notices, unless the house serves really good drinks...

      Muscle memory won't carry over from a physical panel to a mouse. That's just not what muscle memory is.

      It's not just muscles, though. It's also hand-eye coordination, and instant visual recognition of the controls. If I need to tweak a channel's gain, I know immediately I'm looking for a knob at the top of the channel stack. To change it to a slider means I have to look at something different and recognize it's the gain (rather than the typically-a-slider fader).

      For another example, let's talk about pan. Usually it's a knob, but you're suggesting a slider. Since pan is a left-to-right control, it would make sense to have a horizontal slider. However, the fader is a up-or-down control, so it'd make sense to be a vertical slider. Now each channel is a wide and tall block, either wasting space or rearranging controls that have been standard for decades.

      Awkward controls won't make things better. Putting the controls in about the same place on the screen as they are on the physical panel? Sure, that part makes sense. But knobs on a screen is just exasperating in its stupidity.

      Now, the other thing to consider is that there is a reason the knobs are knobs on physical boards. The knobs are controls that rarely need adjustment. They're meant to be set at the beginning of a piece, and are typically left alone. Sure, there are a number of weird moments where the vocalist gets an effect bumped on, or the guitarist runs across the stage with his sound panning to match... but primarily, the knobs are just left alone. They're there if you need them, but you usually don't. Usually the primary control is the fader, literally sitting at your fingertips. From that perspective, it seems silly to turn knobs (which are very dense controls combining a display output with a range input in a small footprint) into sliders (which waste a lot of space with the unused slide). That's wasting valuable display space that I could be using for another effect, another monitor, or simply more channels of control.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    14. Re:Because... by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      I do use this kit (or did, anyway), and I agree with you.

      Mouseover wheel functionality is phenomenal, and I've used a few tools that had it. Since I came from live mixing with physical controls, it seemed natural to just move to the control and turn the wheel (in my case, a side wheel on my mouse) to do the job.

      I absolutely oppose the idea of sliders. That changes the size and relative position of the layout, and the visual appearance enough that it becomes a whole new beast to learn. For a digital product that still hasn't been able to fully replace its analog predecessors, adding such an extra hurdle is ridiculous.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    15. Re:Because... by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Knobs don't belong in UIs, full stop. Use sliders instead.

      Not long ago I would have agreed with you, but touchscreens are in now.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    16. Re:Because... by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      They are making the same mistake that WordPerfect made during the transition from DOS to Windows. Duplicating the user interface of the old environment helps get adoption from the old base of users, but at the cost of alienating potential new users for whom the computer is the native UI paradigm.

      Simulated knobs on a computer screen are very unintuitive to operate. It isn't natural to manipulate them with either a mouse or a touchscreen. At the very least, the software could offer a slider that pops up when you hover over the knob so you could adjust its value that way; that would let you keep the appearance of the knob for quick visual scanning while doing away with the awkward task of figuring out how to change it.

      UIs shouldn't necessarily look like the UI on previous equipment. When there is a paradigm shift in equipment, it's time to reevaluate the UI and figure out whether it still makes sense. I'm not convinced that knobs do.

    17. Re:Because... by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

      But which virtual control on a touchscreen makes sense? Sliders. Not knobs. How do you turn a knob on a touchscreen?

    18. Re:Because... by Briareos · · Score: 1

      Push down on the knob, then swipe left/right, or up/down (depending on your preference, really).

      You can watch the knob turn while not obscuring it with your fingers, and have it take up far less screen real-estate than a slider...

      Which, by the way, is also how you should be able to twiddle an on-screen knob with a mouse.

      --

      "I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole

    19. Re:Because... by jdschulteis · · Score: 1

      Sliders mean precisely one thing in audio: attenuation.

      I guess you've never seen an ARP synth.

    20. Re:Because... by MisterFnortner · · Score: 1

      I feel like I've just read an elaborate rant against the interface equivalent of comic sans. Short version: I just don't like it.

    21. Re:Because... by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      Sliders mean precisely one thing in audio: attenuation.

      I guess you've never seen an ARP synth.

      ...and you should hear the snowflakes whining about the sliders in the Korg Odyssei iOS App (ARP Odyssey sim). However, I used to own a real ARP Odyssey, and found the Korg sliders quite usable).

    22. Re:Because... by TheFakeTimCook · · Score: 1

      Knobs don't belong in UIs, full stop. Use sliders instead.

      Not long ago I would have agreed with you, but touchscreens are in now.

      And rotary controls are nearly as hard to deal with on a touchscreen as with a mouse.

  2. Whoever asks this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is a knob.

  3. Critical knob requirement by Nkwe · · Score: 4, Funny

    Without knobs how would I turn it up to 11?

    1. Re:Critical knob requirement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Without knobs how would I turn it up to 11?

      Why don't you just make 10 louder?

    2. Re:Critical knob requirement by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Without knobs how would I turn it up to 11?

      Why don't you just make 10 louder?

      .....These go to 11.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    3. Re:Critical knob requirement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hilarious... totally unpredictable. I guess we found the other knob.

    4. Re:Critical knob requirement by Strider- · · Score: 1

      True story: worked on satcom gear for military public affairs. At one point, we added a small mixer to the unit to support IFB audio so they could more easily do live interviews and what not. When we made up the labels for the mixer, I made sure our graphics designer had the markings going from 1 to 11... about 10% of my students caught the reference.

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    5. Re: Critical knob requirement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not as good as Jamie Lee Curtis's Tesla shopping story.

  4. Totally Agree! by Spinlock_1977 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've even gone so far as to search for plug-ins that DON'T rely on skeuomorphic designs, and came up mostly empty. Plug-in designers put waaaay too much effort into making their front panels look like brushed aluminum and their needle velocity just so, and not nearly enough effort into making their interfaces intuitive and effective.

    --
    - The Kessel run is for nerf herders. I can circumnavigate the entire Central Finite Curve in a lot less than 12 parse
    1. Re: Totally Agree! by reanjr · · Score: 1

      The only time this shit is acceptable is when they are emulating a specific model of hardware. Only then does the value of a familiar interface outweigh the travesty that is the digital knob.

    2. Re:Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's what customers want though. Most of them are old baby boomers and gen x dropouts who remember when hardware synthesizers costs $2000 so it's easier to rip them off by charging $500 for a piece of shit software that uses the same Fourier transform library as 1000 other synths but that audiophools swear sounds more "analog" than the other because the fake woodgrain interface reminds them of a Moog.

    3. Re:Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'll agree with the brushed aluminum part.. I think the use of knobs is because there are so many adjustments, it's the only way to make everything fit on the screen without needing to scroll. If they use sliders in stead (probably the other obvious way to control things), then the column for each channel on the mixer would be taller then the screen requiring vertical scrolling. If horizontal sliders were used, it would mean a lot fewer channels were visible at the same time because each column would be so wide.

    4. Re:Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All we need now is voice control. Knobs, sliders, toggles, are all old school.

    5. Re:Totally Agree! by thegarbz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      making their interfaces intuitive

      Intuitive to whom? For someone who's used audio mixers before there's nothing more intuitive than seeing a picture of a mixer. For someone who does it professionally there's nothing more intuitive than plugging in a mixing control surface and binding the physical knobs to the virtual knobs.

    6. Re: Totally Agree! by Wintermute__ · · Score: 2

      Absolutely. Whether it's a with a mouse or a touch interface on a tablet or a phone, interacting with fake knobs on a screen is painfully annoying. Physical knobs are good when you need precise quick control. Digital knobs are the opposite - as you say, a travesty.

    7. Re: Totally Agree! by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      A number up / down box serves the exact same thing and is smaller

    8. Re:Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      /thread.

      It makes perfect sense as soon as you remember that MIDI control surfaces exist

    9. Re: Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A number up / down box serves the exact same thing

      No it does not.

      Knobs (with markings, as most GUI ones do) and sliders provide at-a-glance knowledge of two pieces of information:
      1) what is the current value of this setting
      2) where does the current value of this setting lie within the range available for this setting

      A number up/down box only provides at-a-glance one piece of information:
      1) what is the current value of this setting

      There are many uses where that second piece of information is of low or zero utility, but two uses where it is of high utility are: audio editing and photo/video editing. Take a look at Photoshop or Lightroom sometime ... you'll see a whole lot of sliders and very few number up/down boxes.

    10. Re: Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      " interacting with fake knobs on a screen is painfully annoying"

      Maybe you're doing it wrong.

      You don't "turn" software knobs. You click on the knob to select it, then move the mouse in a straight line to change the setting. You can get pretty granular

    11. Re:Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      agreed why should audio software be designed for someone who has never been before a mixer board? professional production staff work in both worlds, mixing board with mastering live music, recorded, and synthesized. It would make sense to emulate this when using a computer. Like it or not audio starts with instruments first, not software.

    12. Re: Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because that's what you want in a small studio while recording vocals.

    13. Re: Totally Agree! by tsqr · · Score: 1

      A number up / down box serves the exact same thing and is smaller

      The exact same thing? I don't think so. If the number box offers integers from 0 to 10 and I want 4.3, I'm out of luck. If the box offers decimal fractions from 0 to 10 in increments of 0.1, the list is 'way too long.

    14. Re:Totally Agree! by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 0

      Because it's really hard to add that UI to a tablet or phone, and all UIs must now comply to standards needed for use on mobile devices, right?

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    15. Re: Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You have an ENTIRE. GODDAMNED. KEYBOARD.

      Use the numbers on it if you want numbers. It even has a decimal point/period (or whatever locale-specific variant you prefer) on it! Or better yet, don't have decimal scales on those controls. If you want 4.3, that's 43/10 anyway. So scale the control to 10x and allow the user to pick 43 instead of 1x and 4.3. But never use a knob. EVER.

      Rotary knobs are wrong. Vertical sliding "faders" that you see in a lot of audio software are nearly as bad. Your hand and wrist naturally glide left-right. Near-far requires shoulder movement. Use a horizontal slider. In fact, rotate the entire UI by 90 degrees. It's not like player piano rolls didn't represent time on the vertical axis a hundred years ago. Screens keep getting wider, and the main thing you want to see when recording is a "slice" of every track, not all of a handful of tracks.

      And just to correct the article: this goes way back before WinAmp. ProTools and its ilk had all of this shit for at least a decade before WinAmp.

      And BTW, this is what "UX" is about. Not about stupid website design with too much whitespace. Back in the day, platforms had a HIG document, and everyone could be judged accordingly. Now, those are gone and dumbasses have shit all over the reputation of anything that gets called "UX" by making a mockery of it.

    16. Re:Totally Agree! by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      So you think a mix board is the epitome of an interface for doing audio?

    17. Re: Totally Agree! by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      Wooosh...

    18. Re:Totally Agree! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 2

      Exactly. Up until recently, the vast, VAST majority of people using audio software were professionals who got their start by working with real knobs and real buttons on real mixing boards. Each of those controls was on that mixing board to serve its very specific, important purpose, and any audio software intending to replicate that functionality would need to provide some way for controlling the functionality provided by each of those knobs. Unfortunately, filling the screen with hundreds of pull-down menus or text boxes would have confused the hell out of their target audience, so it made sense for the time that the software's interactions reflected the real world's interactions. It may have been less convenient, but it was far more understandable.

      In the last few years, however, we've seen a gradual democratization of the field as fully digital boards have replaced analog and hybrid boards, prices have dropped, and the pace of app development has skyrocketed. In a very short span of time, audio production has become the domain of the everyman, rather than being relegated to people who had access to or could afford professional equipment.

      In response to this shift, we have seen a number of apps eschew skeuomorphic designs and instead go about fundamentally rethinking the nature of how we interact with audio (e.g. Rogue Amoeba's Audio Hijack may not be intended as a replacement for a mixing board, but it does do a lot of interesting things with audio). Many of them don't align especially well with the functionality provided by any particular audio device that currently exists. Instead, they'll combine subsets of functionality from a variety of devices in new and interesting ways that open up new approaches for interacting with audio. We're seeing a lot of design experimentation as developers try out new paradigms for interacting with audio, but, as you'd expect, most of these efforts are being aimed at newcomers who don't have established workflows, don't have the high requirements of professionals, and don't have rigid expectations about how their audio software should behave.

      I'd expect that within the next few years we'll see a convergence on certain patterns for how we interact with audio when we aren't constrained by having to use knobs, buttons, and faders, and that we'll eventually see the professional caliber apps adopt those conventions as they become more mainstream. In the meantime, however, we're still in a state of transition.

    19. Re:Totally Agree! by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Having done thousands of live mixes, yes a mixing board is the most efficient way to group, adjust and display many parameters in a human usable fashion.
      I use a digital mixer with ipad remote these days, but the only reason I do so is to save weight and not use long multicore cables. ( saves 100kg)
      The downside is in speed of pulling a good mix at the start, on a real analouge mixer, it takes less than the first song, whereas the digital desk takes up to 3 songs to get near the same result, purely due to the slow access of the interface.
      Its almost as if all those years of refinement and design by experts were worth it.

    20. Re: Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A number up / down box serves the exact same thing

      No it does not.

      Knobs (with markings, as most GUI ones do) and sliders provide at-a-glance knowledge of two pieces of information:
      1) what is the current value of this setting
      2) where does the current value of this setting lie within the range available for this setting

      A number up/down box only provides at-a-glance one piece of information:
      1) what is the current value of this setting

      There are many uses where that second piece of information is of low or zero utility, but two uses where it is of high utility are: audio editing and photo/video editing. Take a look at Photoshop or Lightroom sometime ... you'll see a whole lot of sliders and very few number up/down boxes.

      Yes and for the most part your can spot the n00b when they ask these sort of questions as it shows that they don't actually use said software.

      Simply put, these UIs are emulated interface designs that are already intuitive and easy to read after decades of refinement. Stupid hipsters need to stop redesigning already good UIs just for the sake of changing things.

    21. Re:Totally Agree! by tepples · · Score: 1

      Then replace two knobs top and bottom with two vertical sliders side by side. This way your 24 channels get 48 sliders across.

    22. Re:Totally Agree! by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      what about something that allowed you to play with the waveforms in a visual fashion? a big ass touch screen instead of your board.

    23. Re: Totally Agree! by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      your fake knob has the same restriction, its not a analog thing, if your knob only increments in steps of 1, you still do not get 4.3, and likewise if its really high amount of steps, you have a fiddly thing using a XY pointing device to rotate an object (and even in good software that's still pretty irritating)

      plop a number up / down box, type in 4, oh I want to fine tune that a little, click click click 4.3

      its really not that hard

    24. Re: Totally Agree! by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Your hand and wrist naturally glide left-right.

      Are you using a mouse from 1983? I can't remember the last time I saw one without a scrollwheel.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    25. Re:Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would not be useful at all for mixing multitrack audio.

    26. Re:Totally Agree! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      So you think a mix board is the epitome of an interface for doing audio?

      So you think that Trump is attractive in a sexual way? I mean since we're not actually reading what the other person wrote and then just claiming they said something completely different to what they actually said and on a completely irrelevant train of thought I figure we can continue playing that game.

    27. Re:Totally Agree! by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      The thing you're thinking of is called a "guitar". It's kinda cool... you have a string representing the waveform, and you manipulate it in several places with your fingers to change the pitch.

      Of course, then there are effects, volume, pan, routing, and a number of other things that happen that don't really work by touching a "big ass touch screen".

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    28. Re:Totally Agree! by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, filling the screen with hundreds of pull-down menus or text boxes would have confused the hell out of their target audience

      Hundreds of pull down menus is NEVER a good design. A hundred knobs and sliders is far better than that sort of insanity, and although it has issues they are nothing compared to the issues pull down menus, combo boxes, and the sort would bring.

      An audio engineer does not want to hunt through a menu in order to adjust something. Especially engineers that work in real-time, which is a hell of a lot of them these days. Even the bigger podcasts have an audio engineer sitting at a quite large mixer board with easily several hundred necessary knobs and sliders.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    29. Re:Totally Agree! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Hundreds of pull down menus is NEVER a good design. A hundred knobs and sliders is far better than that sort of insanity

      Exactly right. And that's what I was trying to get at. Until a better paradigm existed for managing the necessary complexity, going with what they had was by far the better choice. They couldn't experiment with new paradigms when their target audience was entrenched in another way of doing things and had no incentive to change. But when there are potentially a lot of new, unaddressed customers in the market and the technology has radically shifted, there's an opportunity to experiment in an effort to find something new that can disrupt the old way of doing things, and that's what we're finally starting to see.

    30. Re: Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you tried to click any mouse button, hold it, and scroll the wheel? No? That's because it's a dumb question.

      The scroll wheel scrolls the window if you're not holding a click on another control already. Anything else is retarded.

    31. Re:Totally Agree! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes! I think it's the hair.

    32. Re:Totally Agree! by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      I agree, but I think this argument carries more weight with any "gaming" control panel. There are some merits to the design of audio software (and you're not going to win any arguments against audiophiles, anyway), but anything related to gaming is just infuriatingly insane.

    33. Re:Totally Agree! by rot16 · · Score: 1

      LADSPA plugins, anyone? With 10 horizontal sliders? No, thanks.

  5. We'd get away from GUIs by aglider · · Score: 1

    That'd the real way to get away from skeuomorphic paradigms. :wq!

    --
    Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
    1. Re:We'd get away from GUIs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Talk about skeuomorphic, rendering music using a model of a typewriter

    2. Re: We'd get away from GUIs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice. We see what you did there.

    3. Re:We'd get away from GUIs by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Kai Krause 4 lyf.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    4. Re:We'd get away from GUIs by aglider · · Score: 1

      Rendering music doesn't need any graphics!
      Have you ever heard of CMusic?
      If you really know what you are doing, then you don't need graphic representation.
      Just like when you program and you skip the flux diagrams...

      --
      Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
  6. Skeuomorphic interfaces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:Skeuomorphic interfaces by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      For a mouse/kb? A slider is best.

    2. Re:Skeuomorphic interfaces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a mouse/kb? A slider is best.

      yeah, using a mechanical actuator to manipulate a simulated mechanical actuator is just so non-skeuomorphic

    3. Re:Skeuomorphic interfaces by dtandersen · · Score: 1

      How about a knob that acts like a slider.

    4. Re: Skeuomorphic interfaces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A sliding knob?

    5. Re:Skeuomorphic interfaces by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      Well, some actually do (click-hold, move mouse up/down), but a knob suggests a circular movement which is less intuitive than a slider would be.

    6. Re:Skeuomorphic interfaces by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      I didn't say it wasn't, just that a slider is more intuitive than a knob for a mouse. The comment I replied to compared textboxes with knobs, so I suggested a slider. I suppose if you know the range of values and how they scale, a textbox would work, but a screen full of them would require a lot of tabbing and/or mouse to kb movement.

    7. Re: Skeuomorphic interfaces by backslashdot · · Score: 1

      Have it sliding in a circle. That won't be hard to use with a mouse at all.

    8. Re:Skeuomorphic interfaces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      click on knob with left-click, then move it around with mouse wheel? Seems to work pretty intuitively to me. Better than trying to move the mouse in a "circle", and the mouse wheel should provide finer control anyways.

    9. Re:Skeuomorphic interfaces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE

    10. Re:Skeuomorphic interfaces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linear drag is better than circular, but it creates a significant disconnect when the fine motion control doesn't line up to any visual or tactile cues. I'm moving the mouse around already, so I have a solid idea of how tactile mouse motion corresponds to visual cursor movement. But when the visual cue is circular and the tactile motion is linear, it's far harder to precisely judge how much to move the mouse.

  7. because by SlashDread · · Score: 2

    Audio engineers are not programmers? Well usually anyways.

    They like to mimic what they know, mixers, synths, filters compressors etc. The H/W variety works with knobs, so the S/W variety mimics that to help, you know, real audio engineers.

    1. Re:because by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Audio engineers are not programmers? Well usually anyways.

      They like to mimic what they know, mixers, synths, filters compressors etc. The H/W variety works with knobs, so the S/W variety mimics that to help, you know, real audio engineers.

      This! The last thing any audio engineer needs to to learn a new interface after having spent many years learning on that has started to look pretty damn standard. If you really don't like the mouse, why not buy a USB mixer control surface and plug it in to your computer. That way you can physically control all the software controls, just like on a real mixing desk.

    2. Re:because by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Audio is still a very analog type of work. So knobs and leavers more accurately represent what they are trying to accomplish.
      They may be other elements that are better suited for computers. But for the most part the knob is probably good enough.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My dad ran his own recording studio.

      I'm a software developer.

      It took years of discussion, explanation, and even a few low-level demonstrations to get it through to him that software running on generalized hardware can replace any and all specialized hardware. It blew his mind.

      Audio is simply a series of samples. Inputs are a sample generator, usually driven by a voltage on a wire. Mixers are simply a lookup table for routing rules. Processors are simply a transformation function, and complicated ones may be stateful. Outputs are a sink to a physical device. Every device you emulate in software fits rather neatly into one of those four categories (input, mixer, processor, output). Any of these can be interactive with user controls and whatnot, or non-interactive with a preset configuration that doesn't change during operation (inputs and outputs practically demand some interactivity to get levels right when translating from/to the analog domain).

      It's really quite simple. But the old dogs can learn new tricks if they're willing to.

      Sadly, my father passed away last year from colon cancer. I haven't done any development on audio software since. No motivation, just memories.

    4. Re:because by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Secretaries are not programmers. Graphics designers are not programmers. Architects are not programmers. I could go on and on and on. The point is entirely immaterial.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    5. Re:because by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But for the most part the knob is probably good enough.

      that's what she said

      (I thought we hadn't seen this comment enough recently)

    6. Re:because by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      Having previously been an audio engineer and a software developer, I think I'm qualified to point out the distinction: Between digital and analog equipment, only one is easy to understand.

      See, you have to realize that I grew up with this stuff. I can slap together a few bits after lunch and have a working custom mixer before dinner. I don't have to worry about a whole field of theory I don't know. This is easy.

      From your perspective, it's just samples and code. From your dad's, it's signals and resistors. Yes, there are fascinating ways to emulate one with the other, but each is still different to the other, and switching means that a whole set of easy things become hard again, as you have to learn the other way.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  8. One First Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you referring to devices or people?

  9. Software developers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whenever I hear, "Look at this! Isn't it cool!?" I cringe.

    Ah no, your UI is unintuitive cumbersome and anyone who actually has to use it will hate it. And touch screens just suck! It's slow, inaccurate, it's all too easy to hit the wrong things.

    There's a reason why serious musicians for the physical controls over touch screens or other GUIs. Nothing beats physical hardware for user controls.

    1. Re:Software developers by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      Nothing beats physical hardware for user controls.

      I agree. There are many situations where physical controls are the best sort -- the prime example is in cars. Replacing physical controls with touch screens in cars is just downright evil.

      But physical controls come with their own set of downsides: they wear out, they can't be easily reconfigured, etc.

    2. Re:Software developers by lgw · · Score: 1

      Replacing physical controls with touch screens in cars is just downright evil.

      You'll just love the Tesla Model 3. All the dashboard gauges are gone too - no speedometer even. There's just a touchscreen panel in the center, quite a long visual distance from the road compared to the usual dashboard.

      Well, at least there's a physical steering wheel .... for now.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:Software developers by green1 · · Score: 1

      Replacing physical controls with touch screens in cars is just downright evil

      Yes, and no. I have a Tesla Model S, the vast majority of the controls are on the touch screen. When I first got the car I was really worried that they'd gone too far with it, and I was partially right, but I've also been pleasantly surprised. Basically the only control that I find I really wish they'd left as a physical button is the fog lights. everything else I've actually been quite happy with as it is. Now granted some of that is because of how much you can map to the steering wheel controls (which are of course physical buttons) but a lot of it is because most of those controls really aren't used all that much, and when they are, it tends to be when you're stopped anyway. (I don't need to adjust how stiff the steering is while moving for example, or even lock/unlock the doors).

      Once a product gets enough features, it's just not practical to have everything be it's own physical control. If every one of the controls on my car was a physical switch instead of touchscreen, the cabin would look like the cockpit of an airliner and you still wouldn't be able to find each control quickly simply because there are so many of them.

      Good product design has to be a compromise between the two. There are certain things that really do work best as physical controls, and those should stay physical, but many things work just fine in software, assuming you design it well (which is usually not the case, but that's really a different issue)

    4. Re:Software developers by green1 · · Score: 1

      quite a long visual distance from the road compared to the usual dashboard.

      This is not even remotely unique to the Model 3, there are many vehicles these days that put the main instrument cluster in the middle of the vehicle instead of in front of the driver. It makes it cheaper to make international variants of the vehicle because you can use the same dash for both right and left hand drive vehicles.

      That said, I still refuse to actually buy any vehicle that follows this horrible design principle, but let's not pretend it's just Tesla doing it.

    5. Re:Software developers by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      You'll just love the Tesla Model 3.

      That's hardly unique to the Tesla -- but you're right, that sort of thing makes it very unlikely that I'd buy one.

    6. Re:Software developers by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      Once a product gets enough features, it's just not practical to have everything be it's own physical control.

      True, but it's entirely practical to dynamically remap physical controls so that you can pick what they're actually controlling at any given time.

    7. Re:Software developers by lgw · · Score: 1

      Unique to Tesla is the lack of any actual gauges or anything in this arrangement. There's just an LCD monitor slapped in the center of the dash. Hope the sun's not an an awkard angle.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    8. Re:Software developers by green1 · · Score: 1

      Not unique, there are other LCD gauge clusters, and other clusters mounted in that same horrible location.

    9. Re:Software developers by lgw · · Score: 1

      I don't believe there's another car with just a monitor in the middle - can you name one?

      Yes, there are cars with one or the other of these bad design choices, but is Tesla unique in combining both? (Actually, I don't think an LCD dash in the normal place with good sun shading is necessarily a UI problem, though it may be a bad idea from a maintenance perspective.)

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    10. Re:Software developers by green1 · · Score: 1

      Toyota Prius. Sure it's a much smaller monitor, but it's still just an electronic display, and in the middle of the car.

    11. Re:Software developers by lgw · · Score: 1

      Ah, good point - I don't think of those as cars, so I had totally forgotten.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  10. Inductive reasoning at its finest by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What the article should have said is this:
    I use GarageBand and only GarageBand and this is how GarageBand works.

    For what it's worth, CoolEdit and Audacity don't work that way. I've never used GarageBand so I can't speak to what it does that you apparently can't live without and/or think that nothing else can do, but I've used Audacity for editing and CoolEdit for sophisticated transformations and neither of them look anything like GarageBand does.

    1. Re:Inductive reasoning at its finest by Wintermute__ · · Score: 2

      It's not just GarageBand. Not even close. Take a look at any pro audio software and plugins, VST synths, Audio Unit stuff, it's a lot of the same. It makes life a pain for actually using them day-to-day.

    2. Re:Inductive reasoning at its finest by HalAtWork · · Score: 1
    3. Re:Inductive reasoning at its finest by Creepy · · Score: 1

      Yep. My commercial pro audio software tries to emulate everything my mixing board can do, which is about 25 things for each channel (and the mixing board has 12 channels - small, but it has pro audio power levels and phantom power for my condenser mics). I can only record 2 channels at once though because that is all my interface supports and I haven't dished out for one that can do more. For me that isn't a big deal because I rarely need more than 2 channels at once (the exception is recording a drum kit, so I mix that down on the board and send a stereo in on the amp outs and pipe that into to the recording software).

      That is just the mixing interface, though - toss in the 125ish effects the software came with and mix and match each of those per channel and it gets to be quite a mess.

    4. Re:Inductive reasoning at its finest by n329619 · · Score: 1

      It makes life a pain for actually using them day-to-day.

      ok. Do suggest an alternative for a 25+ knobs VST synths, with 6 tabs. Yes, some plugins do have that much settings. Frankly, keeping them as small knobs is the best UI they could do without eating the whole screen.

  11. Indeed by JohnFen · · Score: 1

    I'm not amongst the new "skeuomorphic design is evil" school of thought at all, but anything can be overdone -- and some audio software is the perfect example of that.

  12. Pro Audio Plugins are the same by tigersha · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you think MP3 players are bad, try pro Audio stuff. VST synth Plugins, filters, compressors, stompbox emulators, all of them, to a tee are the same. Reason Actually have pictures of stuff tapes to a rack. The virtual cables swing around when you plug and unplug them. Omnisphere, while being a fantastic synth has this horrible blue interface from the 80s. The vintage emulators from Arturia look pretty much the same as the real equipment, scratches on the woodwork included. This is not a good thing, the user interfaces often suffer horribly for it.

    Exception include some of the newest things from Native Instruments, Kontour and rounds for instance as well as Zebra and Serum, the hottest VST synth at the moment.

    Curiously, there is a lot of innovation in designing advanced input devices to make music. Roger Linn, the guy who built the classic Linn Drum Machine in the early 80s is a big fan of this idea, bringing out the Linnstrument. Other things that are very innovative are the Roli Seaboard, Eigenharp, some of Keith McMillen's stuff, Reactable, Continuum and many of the buttony things such as the Ableton Push. It is also a cool place to play with Arduino and embedded electronics. Making Bluetooth Midi things that use your body to control synths is really fun.

    On the hardware input side there is a lot of innovation. On the software side it is Retro, Retro and more Retro. When it comes to the newly active field of analogue or half-analogue synths anything that looks like a digital bit is screamed down by the purists. It really is a shame, there is a lot of innovation that looks and sounds very interesting.

    --
    The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    1. Re:Pro Audio Plugins are the same by Strider- · · Score: 1

      Oddly, I don't remember much of this from Protools back in the 2003 timeframe when I used it. That said, I was a Computer Engineer taking an audio editing course for my arts credit, and mostly stuck to the analog gear because it was my one time when I didn't have to use a computer. Besides, when else would I have been able to lay my hands on a real Lexicon DDL, Fairchild Reverbatron, or a Bode Ring Modulator (designed by Henry Bode himself)? Totally not practical in the modern era, but an absolute blast to do. Laying down my pieces really became performance art, as I was going between multiple 1/4" reel to reel machines, a huge mixing board, and layering in the other boxes as required.

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    2. Re:Pro Audio Plugins are the same by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like they need to build in some in app purchases for different interfaces. Want the one without scratches? That'll be another $10. Minimalist interface? $50. Something that actually works well? It can be yours for just another $125. And view these ads to earn virtual stickers you can put on your virtual gear!

    3. Re:Pro Audio Plugins are the same by tigersha · · Score: 1

      Some of them have nice layouts showing the linear flow of the oscillators, filters and effects. Some of them have cables to set the dataflow. Some of them have NUMBERS to set the dataflow (Massive, I am looking at you), which is really dumb. Many of them simply copy the physical constraints of a 80s switchbox with patch cables in some pseudo-graphical form.

      The best interfaces (Serum, Zebra) are great. The worst of them are just as bad as menu diving with buttons in the 80s.

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
  13. Knobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this refer to the developers or the potentiometers?

    1. Re:Knobs by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      Yes

      Gibble, gabble, gibble gabble (Happy lameness filter to you)

      (Q) = Skeomorphic lameness rejection control set to 11

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  14. Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 4, Informative

    Do you really expect audio producers to have to learn a whole new interface that has nothing to do with the physical equipment it's digitally emulating? That makes no sense. If you sit someone down who has produced audio on professional (physical) equipment, and they have a choice between one that has familiar controls in a familiar arrangement, and one that has some totally different interface (for arguments sake, let's say it's all number entry boxes and drop-down menus, like it's MS Office or something) that doesn't have the 'feel' of what they're used to, which do you think they'll pick? TFA sounds like it was written by someone who has never used real audio equipment in his life.

    1. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Do you really expect audio producers to have to learn a whole new interface that has nothing to do with the physical equipment it's digitally emulating?

      No, but virtual knobs are still stupid when sliders exist. They're close enough to knobs to be substituted and make good sense.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      If it's an EQ, it should have sliders for each frequency. But if it's a mixer the low/mid/high EQ should be knobs.
      L/R balance per channel is better as a knob. Fader should be a slider.
      Channel level can be a knob but it's better as a slider.
      FX returns are usually knobs and would feel awkward as sliders.
      Mains levels can be knobs but they're also better as sliders.
      ..and so on.

    3. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by bad-badtz-maru · · Score: 1

      Sliders take more space. Any decent knob (Waves, for example) uses up/down mouse motion (not rotary) and also allow for direct numeric entry if you click in the middle. Since the knob can be made as small or large as relevant, it seems like the ideal UI component.

    4. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're only using up/down movement, wouldn't an up/down slider be smaller? A knob is equally wide and tall, while an equivalent slider would be much smaller in the unused dimension. If you're using it as a slider anyway, why add the wasted space to make it look like a knob?

    5. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by Green+Mountain+Bot · · Score: 2

      If it's a graphic equalizer, then, yes, it should have sliders. But in music production, you'll find parametric equalizers are preferred because of their flexibility and precision, and they run on knobs.

    6. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by green1 · · Score: 2

      Because you can visually see the position the knob is in at a much smaller level than the slider. When you have a slider less than a cm tall, it's almost impossible to tell where in the travel the slider is, is that 30%? 40%? 60%? who knows. but a knob of the same size you can immediately tell how far it's turned just by glancing at it.
      The movement doesn't have to be limited to the size of the visual element either, you can move the mouse 5 cm for the full spectrum of motion on the control that's only 1 cm in size (and interestingly enough, that feels natural on a knob, but it doesn't on a slider, a slider you expect the travel on the mouse to be the same as the physical size of the slider)

    7. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by Vairon · · Score: 1

      The problem with virtual sliders is that they take up more room than a virtual knob. VST plugins use a GUI that takes up as little room as possible. When you have multiple VST plugins running at the same time, space is at a premium. In addition, now a days many music artists use laptops in shows with even more limited desktop resolution.

      When space is at a premium, knobs are king.

    8. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by mccalli · · Score: 1

      Yes I do, because there's a generation that grew up now using virtual. I've never used the original analogue stuff and trying to work it all out on a computer screen just feels very....anachronistic to me.

      I understand you're point when it's an emulation of original hardware, but people are still making new, entirely digital instruments like this as well. It really irritates.

    9. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by mccalli · · Score: 0

      > you're point

      I hang my head in shame.

    10. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by bn-7bc · · Score: 1

      IChannel level can be a knob but it's better as a slider. FX returns are usually knobs and would feel awkward as sliders.

      Hmm your logic escapes me, or I may be looking at things ass backwards, but an fx return is an input to the whitch ever mix you route it to, so why nor have the save controll ro ajust the level as any other input channel, what am I missing here?

    11. Re:Because it's VIRTUAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      Do you really expect audio producers to have to learn a whole new interface that has nothing to do with the physical equipment it's digitally emulating?

      Yeah! Why should everyone else in the computer world have all the fun? Audio people should be forced to learn a new UI every week, too!

  15. Money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because physical gear is the holy Grail for bedroom producers, who make up the most of the market of those plugins. Second thing is familiarity - the second demographic is older studio engineers who like what they know. So mimicking the appearance of well established analog gear helps sales.

  16. Hardware control ... by dreamstateseven · · Score: 1

    Keep in mind a lot of these plug-ins can be controlled by external hardware. That is, I'm turning a knob on my controller, and the knob on the screen is turning at the same (relative) rate. It may not fully justify the reason for having such designs, and certainly doesn't explain the need for the brushed aluminium finish mimicry. I think it's also owed to a lot of people who use the software, would absolutely love to use the hardware solutions if they were available - because knobs and lights are awesome after all. So the whole skeuomorphic design is firmly footed in marketing.

  17. Because Musicians Aren't Geeks (Mostly) by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    They're designed that way to keep the learning-curve as shallow & short as possible for guys that are used to vacuum-tube amplifiers with physical-spring reverb tanks and effects pedals with germanium transistors. Knobs, buttons, switches, and sliders are what they understand and so skeuomorphic-style GUI digital audio workstation software is what they tend to be more comfortable with and hence to buy, so naturally that's what is most-produced.

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    1. Re:Because Musicians Aren't Geeks (Mostly) by Strider- · · Score: 1

      The (actual) Engineer in me always thought that an audio editing/realtime effects software styled on LabView would work quite well... Drop effects controls onto a workspace, then wire them up by running links between the boxes. Don't know if that's what modern stuff is like (I haven't done audio work since 2002 or so), but it's one of those things that always stuck with me as a sensible way of doing things.

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    2. Re:Because Musicians Aren't Geeks (Mostly) by mccalli · · Score: 1

      You might be interested in reading about Logic's Environment View, which can be used similarly to how you describe.

    3. Re:Because Musicians Aren't Geeks (Mostly) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  18. Because skeuoomorphic designs actually work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, because skeuomorpism actually works - people work well when what would otherwise be meaningless random crap on their screen represents something in the real world. Just ask anyone who's had to deal with Apple's UI since they decided skeuomorphism isn't important. Everything post SL and post iOS 6 has been confusing, muddled, inconsistent shit that you just have to memorize, whereas it used to make perfect sense. Computer UIs need to work for every-fucking-body, not just the programmers. Yes, it can sometimes be overdone, but better overdone and usable that missing and completely ape-shit useless except to the dozen or so people who designed it in the first place...

    1. Re:Because skeuoomorphic designs actually work by tigersha · · Score: 1

      The problem with Skeumorphic design is that it keeps with physical constraints. Imagine a fairly typical VST Synth where you can add effect or modify the data flow and filters with buttons. It makes much more sense for the interface to adjust to the actual dataflow than to have a fixed interface where you have to figure it in your head. ADSR envelopes are easier if you simply edit the curve on a curve instead of with pseudo-virtual buttons.

      A virtual GUI interfacecan morph itself. A skeumorphic interface cannot.

      Zebra, in particular, is very good at this. NI Massive and Arturia's synths, for instance, are not. As for Apples fabled ES2, lets not even go there. You could do vector synthesis much better if the Envelope is visible.

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
  19. He submitted his own article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    John Lagomarsino submitted his own article to Slashdot?

    What a knob.

  20. Skeuomorphic design serves a purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unthinking avoidance of skeuomorphic design severely impairs the ability of a graphical interface to inform.

    If a properly implemented interface element looks like a real-world object, it instantly communicates function.

    What can replace a recognizable image of a knob that can instantly communicate to the entire population of the technology-using world that it is an interactable element having a specific function?

  21. Re:Bad form to answer a question with a question by Lije+Baley · · Score: 2

    Oh where oh where are my mod points today?! Most of the reason why "UI designers" hate skeuomorphism is because they got bored, and wanted to change things. Just exactly like the way my mom had to rearrange the living room furniture every year.

    --
    Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
  22. What is your (or their) alternate suggestion? by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

    It's so easy to criticize without offering a solution... Beyond the brushed aluminum, what is the proposed alternative that would provide an intuitive and efficient to use interface? (Though I completely agree that image of a patch-cable setup in the linked article is ridiculous.)

  23. audio software is for audiophiles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And they're both the worst

  24. my equipment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Marty, that reminds me.....don't hookup to the amplifier, there's a slight possibility of overload.

  25. Representation of Status by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

    How else is the audio level, and the setting of a control going to be represented? Yes, I guess raw numbers should be enough, and you can use a Curses-based VT100 interface and hotkeys to control your audio instruments.

    But nerding out that way is only relevant to a certain degree.

    1. Re:Representation of Status by tigersha · · Score: 1

      This is about dataflow through effect and envelopes and different oscillators to generate sounds. Much more complicated, and the actual signal path can change dynamically.

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
  26. What is his suggestion for an alternative control? by bad-badtz-maru · · Score: 1

    I don't understand the problem with a knob. Most knobs work with up/down mouse movement, they don't require circular motion. You can look at it to tell its current setting. Is he suggesting like a text field into which you enter the numeric values?

  27. Audio Engineer's Reply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They look that way - because they have to. Audio Engineering is about finite control. That control comes from controlling many elements - elements that interact with each other, and affect each other.. also you may not be aware that many physical audio processors have been virtualised.. and therefore it makes perfect sense for them to look the same (Check out UAD plugins for example).

    There are plugins that try to make things simpler.. but often these are for "color" and do not have the depth do the miniscule adjustments that are needed when tweaking audio.

  28. Because you're working with knobs all day long. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know two types of people:

    1) People who think a DAW and a shitty MIDI keyboard is all you need to make great music (these are often the people who bitch about this the most), and

    2) People who have a decent setup with some outboard gear, covered in- you guessed it- knobs and buttons.

    When all you interact with is sliders, knobs, and buttons all day long... A lot of audio plugin interfaces don't phase you. In fact, it's kinda nice having a unified interface for everything, even if one is purely digital. Some are a bit overdone, but for the most part it's not as bad as the article suggests. It feels a hell of a lot more natural staring at a screen full of knobs and buttons than it would a screen full of raw decimals and borderless text that I'm supposed to know is a button.

    Again, I never hear about creators complain about this stuff in the industry. It's always some guy who thinks he's doing awesome shit and has never touched a real mixer before. Sure, some plugins have bad UIs, but we're talking 1/20 here. The rest are perfectly usable.

    1. Re:Because you're working with knobs all day long. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Living in Austin, I see that all the time. A crappy MIDI controller, plus a laptop (usually a MacBook with a ton of stickers on it) winds up being someone's "studio". I can see something like that for a gig rig [1], but there is a reason why pros tend to have a lot more stuff to use.

      [1]: A friend of mine has a musician's rack where I made a 1U cabinet with a built in USB hub, whose job it is to keep those Steinberg VST license key dongles secured. It isn't uncommon for those to go missing, and you then have to re-buy all your stuff, since the ownership is whom owns the dongle. However, there isn't much out there other than ProTools which beats Steinberg's offerings.

  29. Worst Volume control UI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just be thankful you don't have this audio UI

    https://uxdesign.cc/the-worst-volume-control-ui-in-the-world-60713dc86950

  30. Eek! A mouse! by garryknight · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "You have to control them with a mouse".

    Or a MIDI keyboard such as my Nektar LX49+, or a mixer like the Novation SL Mk 2, the Mackie Mix 8, the Behringer BCF2000, or the Faderport 8. A mouse! This ain't the Dark Ages, you know!

    --
    Garry Knight
    1. Re:Eek! A mouse! by Vegan+Cyclist · · Score: 1

      I faded out of recording just as USB controllers were taking off, so I'm not all that familiar, but do these controllers also interface with all the plugins? If you have a compressor or reverb plugin running, can you twist a knob on your controller, and it'll automatically twist the attack knob?

      I see how it's fine for the 'mainboard' of your recording software, which does look like a mixer, but I think the poster is referring to all the extra bits: VST instruments, etc.. I had the original Halion VST instrument, how well does it line up with a controller board? My MIDI keyboard at the time was only useful for the keys, the knobs had no effect and I'd have to make adjustments via mouse and plugin.

      Hopefully that's all been resolved, but if not it could be a headache, and can agree that a better interface ought to be developed..! A nuclear reactor used to have a bunch of knobs, etc.. Is that what they emulate in nuclear reactor software - is it basically a photo of a old nuclear reactor panel that you manipulate with your mouse?

    2. Re:Eek! A mouse! by mccalli · · Score: 1

      You know - I have a Novation SL Mk 2 and a Behringer BCF2000, and I still find myself reverting to mouse control. I just found the other way too imprecise and difficult to replicate consistently.

      Plus there's the annoyance with automap when it comes to the Novation, but that's a specific issue with their design choice and not about the input method per se.

    3. Re:Eek! A mouse! by mccalli · · Score: 1

      Yes - you can get these kind of controllers to control any AU/VST. The Novation in particular wraps the AU/VST using something called Automap, but more common approaches are to implement something like "MIDI learn" on the virtual instrument, then turning whatever dial on the control surface.

    4. Re:Eek! A mouse! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I've got the SL Mk 2 and I haven't used it for over a year. But my Nektar Impact LX49+ integrates with my DAW (Studio One 3.5) really well, so I don't need anything else.

    5. Re:Eek! A mouse! by garryknight · · Score: 1

      They do interface with all the plugins, but you mostly have to link the controls to the controller manually, depending on the controller. Some controllers come with software that allows them to interface directly with built-in plugins in the DAW (such as my Nektar Impact LX49+ which integrates directly with Studio One and Live plus about 11 other DAWs), but many don't. And, though my LX49+ controls the Studio One plugins without further work on my part, I do have to link to the controls on non-factory VSTs like Sylenth1, Valhalla VintageVerb, Massive, Neutron, and the like. It's simple in most DAWs, though. In Studio One, I tweak the control with my mouse (or pen on my Surface), then turn the physical knob (move the slider, hit the pad or whatever), then click the link icon, and from then on that physical control alters the virtual control. And Studio One (not plugging it, honestly!) has two types of control: global (mixer, browser, and so on) and local (controls on a particular VST, for example), and knows the difference by the context. The LX49+ (not plugging it, honestly!) also has controls for Mixer and Instrument which allows you to do the same thing with other DAWs.

      The great thing about having this type of controller is that once you've set it up, you don't need to worry about it until you install another VST. But that doesn't happen very often, does it guys?

      --
      Garry Knight
    6. Re:Eek! A mouse! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But if you have a hardware controller, why would you care about the screen having knobs when you have actual knobs you can not only look at, but feel and control with much higher precision?

  31. Real-estate by kwelch007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It turns out that knobs are pretty space-efficient considering the function they perform, when physical or digitally presented. When doing live sound, having quick access to as many adjustments as possible with a simple reach is invaluable. One of the things I dislike about most modern digital mixing consoles is that they tried to limit the number of knobs which in turn leads to more buttons being pushed to switch between channels.

    1. Re:Real-estate by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      I had to think about it for a minute, but sliders are better for things that need to be accessed more often (channel levels, for instance) and knobs for things less often adjusted (channel EQ, i.e. low/mid/high, FX return levels, per-channel monitor levels, etc).

    2. Re:Real-estate by green1 · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't have to think about it, just look at any real mixer board, they already do exactly that, and you know why? Because that's what works best!

    3. Re:Real-estate by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      What I meant was: I've done live sound reinforcement, worked with a producer, and have a fair understanding of things, enough so that I don't have to think about it if I'm doing it, but I have to articulate it in words I have to think about it.

  32. Winamp wasn't patient 0. by Narcocide · · Score: 1

    Long before Winamp or mp3, midi composer software was already doing this.

  33. Digitial/Analog crosstraining by jargonburn · · Score: 1

    If the panels accurately reflect the layout/design of comparable analog boxes that perform that function, then someone skilled at using the digital version would likely have an easier time learning and using the analog equivalent. Also, vice versa.
    While the OP isn't wrong about wanting interfaces that aren't held back by....legacy....considerations, I still see a lot of analog devices in use.

  34. It's all about the musicians! by MindPrison · · Score: 2

    Have you ever met a true musician? You know - those that actually are good, and make music for a living, not only a boy/girl with a guitar or a "Home studio" in moms basement.

    Music is ALL about the FEEL. And musicians are often very visual as well as aural, they tend to really LOVE their hardware, and by hardware I mean their Guitars, saxophones, trumpets, drumset, keyboard, violins and whatever floats your boat. In fact - it's almost like a girlfriend or boyfriend to some, this instrument makes them feel they can perform, it's a trusted friend - it's a companion - it's something you wouldn't let go for dear life!

    So when you see all these controls and knobs, it is intended to give the user complete VISUAL control and emulate the "unplugged" feel of the electromechanical gear that costs a FORTUNE if you actually want the real thing (like external mixers, harddisk track recorders, Tascams, keyboards, sound-modules etc.). It just makes you FEEL better, that there's something there - real hardware - that you can touch, control and FEEL.

    --
    What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
    1. Re:It's all about the musicians! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is because all instruments (not just musical) basically becomes a part of your body, an extension of you, when you play well.

    2. Re:It's all about the musicians! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. I don't know of a serious musician or produce who doesn't have real, physical hardware, so why are music software designers duplicating a shitty version of what the pros have if the design only makes sense for pros?

  35. Wrong by sexconker · · Score: 4, Informative

    Except you have to control them with a mouse.

    No, you fools.

    High end audio software ties into physical knobs and sliders and shit on your high end boards. You control the digital knob with an actual knob.

    All other software apes the high end software, but most of it can't tie into actual hardware dealies and even the mid end packages that can often don't because the low end users don't have such hardware.

  36. Reaper has slider mode for VST. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can look at a plain Jane, all slider interface of your VST with numerical value fields if you so desire.

  37. learn the software first, then complain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Probably it is because most audio engineers use real equipment at some point in their careers and you learn to glean a lot of information quickly by looking at the knobs. But this guy can't even figure out that in Logic (and probably Garageband, too, I don't know) you can change the view in all of the native plug-ins to 'controls' and then it is just text and sliders. But I have no idea why you would want to. It is extremely difficult to figure out what you are looking at.

  38. Full circle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I have a physical box here with three controls; power button, eject button, volume knob. The rest is done through the remote. It's an "integrated home theatre system", as in a receiver with built-in dvd player and scart/hdmi.

    That volume knob I can turn as much as I want, but if I turn it too quickly (anything above "arthritic sloth" speed) the thing will simply not pick up the changes. It doesn't have a potentiometer but an angle detector attached, that apparently isn't being checked remotely often enough by the software running the thing.

    So we've gone full circle: Stupid software bred stupid hardware.

  39. the ancient knobs work with ancient midi protocols by curado · · Score: 2

    http://www.akaipro.com/product... The knobs on the screen can be controlled with hardware. Some hardware also has powered knobs/sliders that can be controlled from the screen as well during playback (or manually).

  40. too many knobs and buttons? by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    How else would you control many many dynamic and constantly-adjusted variables in real time?

    I know it's frightfully analog, but the fact is that things like drop-down lists, context-relevant controls, etc would just make this harder. If I need to drop the bass volume in the middle of live performance, I don't want to have to hunt for the control, I want the control RIGHT WHERE I EXPECT IT.

    I can see ultimately someone crafting a better UI, sure, what can't be improved? But the UI controls have a lot of organizational inertia - I learned on a sound board, so it's going to be easy for me to switch to a digital representation of a soundboard, rather than something wholesale different.

    --
    -Styopa
  41. Aim is to bind s/w interface to MIDI controllers by Morgaine · · Score: 4, Informative

    Musicians and enthusiasts who use music creation software usually know very well why their software tools have an interface that depicts music hardware, so I'm a bit puzzled why it's a mystery to the author of TFA.

    The reason is that hardware controls like knobs, sliders, percussion pads, 2-axis touchpads, multi-axis RF field interfaces, breath controllers and many others kinds are extremely interactive and immediate in their effect, and so their use comes naturally to music creators. All of these controllers are commonly provided with a MIDI interface today. This has been so for many decades, either baseband MIDI or today commonly carried over USB. Through MIDI, these hardware interfaces are bound by the musician to any desired control points in the software tools, and the result is extremely expressive and a pleasure to use.

    The author complains that controlling the s/w elements with a mouse is pretty awful, and indeed it is, but nobody with any sense does that except before they've set up their MIDI control gear. There are literally hundreds of thousands of different kinds of MIDI controllers around, often costing very little, so it's a bit unusual to find a music maker who is not aware of them and of their purpose.

    --
    "The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
  42. alternative designs exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    there's always Renoise.

  43. Worse than Audio software...Video Editors! by farrellj · · Score: 1

    The one software genre that really burns me is Video editors. They all want to use some variant of the Edit Decision List, or "EDL". Rather than using the standard way we select things on most softwares...example...You select part of a sentence, cut it, move the cursor to where you want to put it, and then paste it.

    --
    CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
  44. Uh, MIDI Controllers? by wardrich86 · · Score: 1

    Do they not understand that you can have midi controllers that interface with those knobs and buttons? With the proper MIDI controls, it's perfectly sensible.

  45. Knobs = realtime control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In the 80's, as digital synthesizers came in to vogue, and started to take over analog synthesizers, the interface transitioned from knobs/sliders to menu-oriented. The Yamaha DX7 was a preeminent synth of the 80's and that with others set a lot of trends both in sound and design for later synths.

    In the early 90's with the rise of various forms of electronic dance music there was a resurgence of appreciation for dirty analog sounds from older analog systems no longer in production. All these older systems had knobs. Music was made by manipulating these knobs in realtime, something not done too often before this age.

    These analog machines, not valuable in the 80's, suddenly became quite desired and valuable in the mid-90's and later, worth more in some cases than the existing digital synths.

    So the trend swung back to knobs and sliders, and around the late 90's and beyond "Virtual Analog" came into vogue, where you were hearing the output of a DSP but controlling parameters in realtime with knobs. Less menus.

    A few years later PC's became cheap and powerful and synths started to be VSTs installable on a PC and useable in various programs. They keep the design of late 90's synths to indicate that live real-time control is possible. Though these days if you are serious about it, you map the virtual knobs to real ones on a MIDI or USB controller.

  46. Nothing new... by midifarm · · Score: 1

    They've been doing this since the early days of Notator (Logic), Performer, MasterTracks and Vision. Keep in mind that the majority of plugins are emulating old rack gear which had knobs, buttons, and faders. It's familiar and much easier to control, especially with an outboard control unit like an X-Control, than an Event List editor with parameters in hexadecimal. There's nothing wrong with it.

  47. Because people need identification? by guruevi · · Score: 1

    I'm sure if you're just mixing 2 channels together, it doesn't matter much, but if you're mixing live music, we need identifiers that are unified across various systems. Sure you can put a color on a virtual DSP but not everyone will have the same color selected. In some cases, you actually have emulated real hardware and in some case the hardware is actually real hardware.

    To replace everything with grey knobs is worse, hence why we have this.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  48. Your mouse has a knob (unless it's an Apple mouse) by Comboman · · Score: 2

    Better yet, you click on (or hover over) the knob to select it, then spin the scroll wheel on your mouse to change the setting (you know, the actual, physical mechanical wheel that is a perfect "simulation" of a physical mechanical wheel).

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
  49. better than hamburger by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lots of settings to control - a 'modern' hamburger menu would be even worse. Nobody has had a better idea.

  50. Several reasons by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

    - It just looks damn cool when done right (ok, subjective judgment)
    - It can be controlled with real hardware (ex: DJing software like Traktor tend to look like the real mixing table the user likely has)
    - When real hardware is emulated, it is natural that the software looks like the hardware it emulates (ex: a TB-303 soft synth will have the same buttons at the same locations as an actual TB-303).
    - Knobs are not that bad for screen-based interaction.

  51. Size matters... by BadTuna · · Score: 1

    .. and why are they 5 x 5 pixels?

    --
    Your sig here!
  52. Maybe because.... by Tulsa_Time · · Score: 1

    Sound is analog ....

    Oscilloscopes show analog signals.

    --
    5 out of 6 people enjoy Russian Roulette & 6 out of 7 Dwarfs are not Happy
  53. What exactly is the problem? by lyran74 · · Score: 1

    The current tide against skeuomorphic design is mostly a case of something that works but is out of fashion. It'll be back like skinny jeans before you know it. Who would have thought Microsoft would start this trend with Windows 8? There are real reasons for skeuomorphic interfaces in audio gear however. Interfaces that look and feel like their real world equivalents are fun to use. Audio geeks are notorious for collecting real gear, and having virtual gear that looks like the real thing lets us pretend we're getting the real thing for a fraction of the analogue price. (If we've paid for it at all, but alas that's another topic.) Furthermore, with analogue gear being in vogue, as a repudiation of their "cold" digital implementations of the 80s and 90s, skeuomorphic interfaces that recall vintage meatspace gear help sell the sizzle of carefully-modelled analogue circuits. Don't mistake a music producer for an audiophile â" the latter are particularly vulnerable to voodoo benefits of overpriced obscure gear. But both groups are drawn to legendary equipment, and that's perhaps the main reason that skeuomorphism lives on in the DAW world, which frankly I hope remains steadfast against the hate-on for skeuomorphism.

  54. Aviation, too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Flatscreen in the panel, and then it displays ancient instruments. Most often things like an HSI are still displayed that way. As if it wasn't easier to just fly to match the extrapolated track with the intended track. No, ancient instruments.

    Multiple reasons. Pilots are old, and more often than not computer-illiterate. Once upon a time, an HSI was an expensive instrument, not everyone could afford one, now it's just a click away on the touch panel. Also, training syllabus. If you're required to be able to use it, it has to be there. Also vice versa, if you know how to use it because you have been trained, you might want to use it.

  55. Normal by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    Sound engineers are all geriatric hippies who can't use modern software.

  56. My knob tastes funny! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please refrain from tasting the knob.

  57. Hey Sherlock. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can enable non-skeumorphic mode for VSTs in your DAW. You're just too stupid to know this.

  58. Instead of knobs, have sliders with numbers by tepples · · Score: 2

    He complains that you have to control the knobs with a mouse... as opposed to what, real knobs? Does he suggest something like using mouseover-then-scrollwheel as opposed to drag-the-knob?

    I've read about similar problems with the volume control in QuickTime Player when it first went skeuomorphic. The issue was that linear motion is easier with popular GUI input devices than circular motion. So replace knobs, which require a circular motion, with sliders, which allow a linear motion.

    Granted, a lot of the controls in the screenshots of the featured article already are sliders. But the sliders in the "glistening art deco aesthetic" screenshot have two problems: they are hard to read at a glance because they try too hard to look like physical sliders with highlights and shadows, and they are hard to study because they don't also provide a numeric readout of the current setting. Sometimes it's hard to even tell which color means on from which means off without reading the manual.

    The "Retune Speed" and "Humanize" in the Auto-Tune EFX 3 (2016) screenshot are a good start: each is a slider with a numeric readout. "Tempo" is still a knob, but at least it has numbers. But the note name toggles for setting the piece's key (C, C#, D, D#, etc.) leave me guessing: is black, white, or blue on? And what's with the four rows of dots between the key setting and the "Humanize" slider?

    Better yet: Why not just use the host operating system's styling for sliders, text fields, and checkboxes?

  59. Sliders: 2 for $2 by tepples · · Score: 1

    If you want to set an effect's intensity to 11 units out of 12, you can move the slider to 11 or click in the adjacent text field and pressing 1 1 Enter. Just don't use a knob, you knob.

  60. Why are so many things complicated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There must be a way to make things simpler.

  61. "....needles twitching between numbers... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

    ....on a volume meter."

    Is that really a thing? I've used pro and consumer analog gear with LED meters since the 80s, and none of (admittedly limited) software I've used had faux needles. Are they that common in audio apps?

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
    1. Re:"....needles twitching between numbers... by debrisslider · · Score: 1

      A VU meter is different than some LEDs. Most LED meters are peak meters that operate at Full Scale (0 db is the top LED, you can't go higher without clipping), meaning they'll show the volume of the loudest part of the track, the absolute peak of a waveform's transient. This is useful with digital, as you generally never want to clip or overshoot 0 dbFS. A VU meter has different ballistics (the way it reacts to incoming signal is slower) and acts as more of an indication of average volume of the signal. A peak meter is good for knowing when you need to throw a limiter on, but it won't give enough information about how loud your signal actually is - one loud momentary transient can be twice as loud as the rest of the audio and fool your eyes into thinking your mix is louder than it really is. You can of course modify the LED ballistics to approximate a VU meter, but generally audio software keeps them separate. If it's the kind of 10-LED strip with 3 reds 3 yellows and 4 greens or whatever, that gives you much less granular information than a VU meter is capable of, and takes extra mental effort to interpret. It's not that it's difficult to interpret, but it's something else to take note of and that can add up when you're paying attention to dozens of different meters across all your tracks and plugins - so why not just throw a VU meter on it and avoid having to think about it? They're different tools for different purposes and needles are in no way obsoleted by LEDs.

  62. Re:Your mouse has a knob (unless it's an Apple mou by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Digital knobs are such a great, intuitive way to interact, they're used almost everywhere now!

    Wait a minute... that doesn't sound right....

  63. Please. This complaint has already been addressed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most of the pro-audio software I've used start with the assumption you'll be using something like The Raven a multi-touch audio controller that lets you tweak the virtual knobs and sliders in real time while mixing. If you're complaining about the interface only allowing mouse input, your job must not rely as heavily on audio manipulation as you say because I've considered buying one of these and I only piss around with recording/mixing my own music a few hours a week. Why? Because it makes the job a BILLION times easier than futzing with a mouse or even a touch pad.

    For a cheaper solution, there's also things like Logic Remote for the iPad, that turns your iPad into a virtual controller for Logic.

    There are solutions out there, but most of them cost a bit of coin. Frankly, I really, REALLY don't want tweakability removed from pro audio software and plugins just because some newblet doesn't understand they aren't built with the mouse-only desktop in mind.

    Standardization would be nice, but I don't see the plugin companies and programmers ever agreeing on one simply because they all have a different idea of what the perfect interface would be. Just like not every hardware mixing desk is set up exactly the same, and not every rack chorus, reverb, or delay is set up the same.

  64. Get a touch screen by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    Then you can interact with your virtual knobs and sliders as you would real ones.

    1. Re:Get a touch screen by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      I can understand using sliders with a touch screen, though it's a bit of a stretch; on a real mixer, I usually prefer to grab it between my fingers for a better control feel. Still, the general sliding action can be replicated with a single-finger touch.

      However, how does one use knobs "as you would real ones"? Do you have a 3D morphing screen where a knob emerges outwards so you can grab it? Because sliding your finger along the perimeter won't cut it.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  65. Clearly a sign the Apple effect by tatman · · Score: 1
    I've had a studio most of my adult life. I've owned all kinds of mixers, effects, compressors, patch bays, reverbs, whatever. I probably spent more on studio hardware than I will on my kids education. All of those knobs do something. They have value.

    It stands out to me author never worked in a studio or done serious audio work. He says he has used ES2 synthesizer in Logic Pro for 8 years and still cannot "come closer to understanding what any of its controls do, or why they are laid out like this".

    Genuine audio engineering cannot be done with a single button at the bottom of the screen.

    This article is written by someone who is not an audio engineer, not even a hobbyist. Why did this article even make it on slashdot?

    --
    I've always said English was my second language. Had Romeo and Juliet been written in C, I might have understood it.
  66. Re:Aim is to bind s/w interface to MIDI controller by Megane · · Score: 1

    Exactly. Any good audio software can have its virtual knobs mapped to real knobs on a MIDI device (almost always USB these days, with adapters available to convert classic serial MIDI to USB). They will also usually include pre-programmed map support for the hundred or so most popular MIDI control devices. Not just audio editing (knobs, faders, buttons, LEDs), but music input (piano keyboards, pitch controls, variable-pressure drum pads) and DJ mixing (jog wheels, faders, knobs, buttons, pads, LEDs) as well. They all use USB MIDI, but the controllers and the messages they send are combined differently to match the standard workflows of each domain.

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
  67. Re:Aim is to bind s/w interface to MIDI controller by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When a game is developed for PC, I expect them to completely re-think the interface when it comes to consoles. Similarly, when a game comes out for XBox and then subsequently on the Wii. Different controller capabilities should lead to different interfaces.

  68. Audition? by tezbobobo · · Score: 1

    Coming late to the discussion here, but I'd like to talk about Adobe Audition. It does not use knobs. Here are my thoughts:

    I came late to the recording game. To clarify, I am an amateur recorder. That said, I have a fairly complete rack at home, and it has lots of knobs. Like, heaps! And when I am adjusting attacks/delays/etc the knobs are fine.

    Switching to Audition, if I apply something like a compressor, each value has a slider and an editable number at the end. It is excellent - I can fine tune the values, write them down if I need to. I have never felt hampered by the lack of knobs and would hate it if they went that way. 'Attack' means something, and it doesn't matter whether you use a knob or a slider to enter it. On a rack, a knob uses way less space than a slider, but is also less accurate. Why would I possibly want that on a computer?

    So there IS software that doesn't do this. That said, anytime you switch to VST plugins it is like switching to shareware hour in the 1990s.

  69. To distinguish faders from non-fader sliders by tepples · · Score: 2

    Sliders mean precisely one thing in audio: attenuation.

    And just about every continuous value in analog synthesis can be expressed as attenuation of a control signal.

    If you need to make a specific visual distinction between sliders that were always sliders (such as the fader) and sliders that used to be knobs, then give the faders a rectangular thumb button and the former knobs a round one. A pan knob, for instance, could turn into a short horizontal slider with a round thumb button.

  70. Commission a free replacement by tepples · · Score: 1

    This stuff is almost all copyright-protected, proprietary software, not open source.

    So is Windows. Yet a binary-compatible free replacement for Windows userspace exists, and it's called Wine. GNU itself is a source-compatible free replacement for UNIX. So why not commission a free replacement for these proprietary plug-ins?

    1. Re:Commission a free replacement by thomst · · Score: 1

      tepples inquired:

      This stuff is almost all copyright-protected, proprietary software, not open source.

      So is Windows. Yet a binary-compatible free replacement for Windows userspace exists, and it's called Wine. GNU itself is a source-compatible free replacement for UNIX. So why not commission a free replacement for these proprietary plug-ins?

      Suggesting costly high-value-labor- and resource-intensive projects to produce alternatives to literally HUNDREDS of different proprietary products is ... unhelpful.

      Audio DSP is a pretty specialized area, and studio-quality DSP's require the participation of professional audio engineers and producers to develop. You're proposing that somebody - and it sure as hell isn't going to be yours truly - pay the freight for a team of programmers to learn how the many, disparate pieces of rackmount hardware work and what they do in terms of altering the audio signal (which would require somebody to provide them with examplars of these multi-thousand-dollar devices on long-term loan), then develop software to emulate them sufficiently well that top producers and audio engineers would be willing to use them in a commercial, production environment. Who do you propose finance such an effort?

      The only practical solution I can see is to raise the consciousness of existing plug-in developers regarding UI usability to the point that they'll actually make it a priority in future products and bugfix releases for current, popular plug-ins. That, in turn, means raisng a big enough stink about the dismal quality of current plug-in UI's to get theose developers' attention. TFS is a small step in that direction. So is this sub-thread.

      But, to have any practical positive effect, the issue really needs to attain a significantly higher profile than it's ever going to get from one /. story ...

      --
      Check out my novel.
    2. Re:Commission a free replacement by tepples · · Score: 1

      Suggesting costly high-value-labor- and resource-intensive projects to produce alternatives to literally HUNDREDS of different proprietary products is ... unhelpful.

      Yet an effort to produce replacements for proprietary software resulted in Linux, GNU, X.Org X11, and hundreds of different applications that run under them. I concede, however, that DSP might be difficult because more specialized labor is more expensive.

  71. Midi controlers and replication... by XSportSeeker · · Score: 1

    The problem here is two fold, and the comparison to desktop interfaces and iOS is unfair.
    Different than the examples given, skeuromorphism used in audio software wasn't appropriated to make the interface look more user friendly or familiar.... there are some practical reasons for it.

    Number one, physical control interfaces that tie to the software to give users an actual physical interface (such as midi controlers, sound boards, studio mixers and whatnot). Controls have to look exactly like them and behave exactly like them because it's more for monitoring rather than actual control.

    Number two, they are replications of actual physical hardware that exists or existed, and part of the reasoning for them is to provide a lower cost replication of the actual hardware, for people who wants to mess with it, or for people who had those and knows how to use the original.

    With those two reasons in mind, you can also consider that most professional audio software are developed with expandability in mind - that people getting seriously into it will eventually move to physical controls. And then, the other thing is how people are taught around it. Levels, knobs, buttons, digital led panels and whatnot are all heavily tied to certain types of effects or controls - it's better for you to learn that way because in the future you might be dealing with audio specific hardware instead of computer software.

    So yeah, I can understand people wanting something less skeuromorphic and that can be more fit to desktop use or something like that, and I imagine there has been attempts to go that way... but much like FPS games using gamepads versus keyboard and mouse, I think for the vast majority of musicians, audio engineers, producers and whatnot, keyboard and mouse or touchscreens will never replace typical physical audio/effect controls. The physicality of audio controls is very much tied to performance and real time fine tunning.

  72. What are you smoking? mpd has no knobs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GUIs are for losers!

  73. Jacob Neilson: DrumStep 99% bad regardless of UI by flashquartermaster · · Score: 1

    I'm not convinced that going all minority report on my RED 3 compressor's UI is going to enhance my experience of using it, I like the way it looks like the actual unit but more importantly, I like the way it sounds.

  74. TL;DR: why are there so many knobs in audio by epine · · Score: 1

    If ever there was a title longer than it needed to be, it was this one.

    Before the advent of modern electronics, you typical "golden ear"—who could hear things that no other mortal could hear—wandered about the desert bending everyone's ear about his dire need of acid-free parchment paper or single-crystal stone tablets.

    No one need wonder why Theodore Sturgeon wrote Need in 1960.

    On a side note, some believe that Sturgeon's Baby is Three was an advance paean to what ultimately become Dianetics.

  75. It is the best virtual training simulator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First for the windows comment. Apple had folder, files, and trash can way before windows was around so lets give them the credit for that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_graphical_user_interface

    Second the purpose of recreating the midi interface in software is to train the person into using the hardware version. Companies that create the software also sell hardware to go along with it. If you don't have someone holding your hand and teaching you what every knob and switch does it is scary as no tomorrow.The software forces entry level people to learn the hardware interface and takes away that initial fear. The people that create the software/hardware make more money selling the hardware then they do the software. You can bet a user will use a piece of software for 10 years till forced to upgrade, but he will tear through new piece of hardware like a toddler handed a book.

    Third I know what you are going to say "But what about software vendors and open source software that doesn't sell hardware?". Simple they copying all the other vendors that make their interface look like midi boards. Design is a bitch and it is easier to copy someone else then to create something new people might not use because it is different.

  76. Because knobs are small by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The primary reason why knobs are used in audio software GUI's is: because they are small, you can fit many of them in an interface. That space efficiency means you can make more controls immediately accessible, and that outweighs the fact a knob is hard to control with a mouse.

    While knobs are sometimes used for skeuomorphism purposes, this is relatively rare and TFA is incorrect in assuming this is the primary reason why knobs are used in audio software.

    The fact is: nothing you can do with a mouse or touch screen matches the efficiency of a physical knob that responds to a pinch and twist with the thumb and finger. There have been attempts to find virtual controls that retain the space efficiency of a knob while improving its responsiveness, but after all these years, this remains a major fundamental shortcoming of computer-based interfaces.

  77. Have you Used those Software? by n329619 · · Score: 1

    Knobs don't belong in UIs, full stop. Use sliders instead...

    Try this on one of those audio software with a knob. Mouse click down on the knobs, move right, release.

    Woh! It works just like a slider!

    Now try this, mouse click down on the knobs, move left, release.

    Woh! It also works just like a slider!

    Just to let you know, it is a slider, but with a smaller UI.

  78. WinAmp was patient zero? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A bit ignorant of the history here. I mean, little old me wrote a full skeuomorphic audio interface, back in 1994, and that was based on systems I'd seen during the late 80s. And WinAmp is an end-user playback module, it's not even used for audio production. Playback systems have in fact moved away from skeuomorphic interfaces to the general AV interface you see in WMP and VLC now. So, mentioning WinAmp as the "inventor" of this stuff is pretty much an epic fail and indicates a fairly high degree of ignorance.