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Canada's Challenge Is Keeping Techies, BlackBerry Inventor Says (bloomberg.com)

Posted by msmash on from the perspective dept.

The former chief executive officer of BlackBerry added his voice to the chorus of people saying that Canada's main economic hurdle is keeping technology talent. From a report: "The biggest challenge as a country is retaining and recruiting the best people to build industries in Canada and not lose them to other jurisdictions," Mike Lazaridis, who left BlackBerry in 2013, said Thursday at the Waterloo Innovation Summit. Canada is pushing to become a technological leader as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau tries to shift away from a commodities-driven economy by increasing funding for technology and offering fast-track visas to highly skilled workers. Cities like Ottawa, the capital, have stepped up recruitment efforts targeting expats in the U.S., while Toronto and its surrounding cities submitted a regional bid Wednesday for Amazon.com's second headquarters. The BlackBerry inventor sees Canada as at the forefront of the development of quantum computers, technology that could transform the world by allowing computers to operate much faster and on larger data sets than ever before.

95 of 161 comments (clear)

  1. Pay more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do you think people leave Canada because they want to?

    1. Re:Pay more by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      Yes. Your question suggests that the only reason people would leave Canada is because they are being forced out.

      Are there vigilante groups running around Canada and running people out of the country on a rail (as the saying used to be) or is it the government doing this? Does it work like the way England used to ship convicts to Australia?

      I am curious about how this forced emigration works because none of my co-workers down there have mentioned any of this to me.

    2. Re:Pay more by rholtzjr · · Score: 1

      From the sound of it, it seems to be an economical factor brought on by government. I believe I read something similar to this in the UK medical field and US medical field as well.

      There seems to be a very fine balance between regulations that help and ones that actually destroy.

    3. Re:Pay more by Trondheim · · Score: 2

      There's an old saying that says, "Don't feed the trolls," but wow, I haven't read this much air-headed hyperbole since Hillary Clinton's new book came out.

    4. Re:Pay more by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      So people are choosing to leave, not being forced.

    5. Re:Pay more by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      So not so much forced out as choosing to leave because of overtaxation and cost of living.

    6. Re:Pay more by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      WRONG. People are CHOOSING to leave because of the tax rates. Force is a completely different concept and generally involves violence or the the threat of violence in this context.

    7. Re:Pay more by rholtzjr · · Score: 1

      This is blathering noise in order to ensure there is a clear division maintained in the US. The one thing they do NOT want is a united US. Common "Art of War" tactic. Most people realize this. The problem, however, is there are quite a few useful idiots in the US on both sides.

    8. Re:Pay more by rholtzjr · · Score: 1

      Only if you consider just being able to survive as your one and only choice. You do know there is a difference between "living" and just "existing", right? That is part of being human.

    9. Re:Pay more by computational+super · · Score: 1

      The Canadians will settle on reason after they've exhausted all other options. They're just working through the options now.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    10. Re:Pay more by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      When people within driving distance of where you live make twice as much money, for the same job and with the same qualifications, it's not hard to join the "Brain Drain".

    11. Re:Pay more by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      When you include medical expenses with your taxes (as in Canada) you find the total taxes are close. Americans still get paid more though.

    12. Re:Pay more by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      My brother who finally succumbed to a third bout of cancer would have been left financially destitute, if he lived in the states, after the first bout and would have likely died far sooner than he did.

      I don't think so.

      Here in the states many people live in fear of loosing their jobs and the healthcare that goes with it. For those whose employers provide healthcare insurance. Even with healthcare, a major medical issue can push people into bankruptcy!

      While I was in college, I had no income at all, and I developed stage 4 chronic kidney disease. I was on medicaid and they paid all of the costs for getting me listed, doctor visits and all, and would have paid for the surgery, drugs, and everything, with no cost to me at all. I'm still listed, but I'm working now, and my current insurance will pay the full cost of surgery with zero deductible.

      My brother-in-law received a lung transplant (1 million dollar operation) free of charge from medicaid. It varies by state, but most states provide any services that you need.

      At any rate, if Canada's health care is so good, then why do so many of them go south for treatment? Truth be told, Canada's system is a joke compared to all other first world socialized healthcare systems.

    13. Re:Pay more by unixisc · · Score: 1

      WRONG. People are CHOOSING to leave because of the tax rates. Force is a completely different concept and generally involves violence or the the threat of violence in this context.

      If somebody cannot afford something, then following a path that gets him/her out of that expense is being forced: it's not a choice!

      Violence is not the only image of force: extortion is. If somebody is living somewhere and paying $1000 as rent, and the rent is suddenly jacked up to $2000, then that person is forced to leave, even if no violence is involved in him arriving at the decision.

  2. More Like Mismanagement by Luthair · · Score: 2

    Canada has had a number of successful technology companies, but they've all been plagued by mismanagement see Blackberry, Nortel, Corel, etc

    1. Re:More Like Mismanagement by geekmux · · Score: 2

      Canada has had a number of successful technology companies, but they've all been plagued by mismanagement see Blackberry, Nortel, Corel, etc

      Perhaps they need to enact a Too-Big-To-Fail law.

      That way, they could reward mismanagement like the US does (see banking industry, auto industry, etc.)

    2. Re:More Like Mismanagement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We (Canada) do that already - it's called Bombardier.

    3. Re:More Like Mismanagement by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      Canada has had a number of successful technology companies, but they've all been plagued by mismanagement see...Corel

      Hey, don't keep Corel in that list! They've acquired - and still sell - WordPerfect, Paradox, WinZip, and WinDVD. It's a retirement home for software.

    4. Re:More Like Mismanagement by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure "Getting destroyed by unfair American competition" counts as mismanagement.

    5. Re:More Like Mismanagement by Luthair · · Score: 1

      Who? Maybe Corel? Blackberry was a shit show, they focused all their energy on a tablet that couldn't even retrieve email without being tethered to a phone while they lost their entire market share.

  3. History by PPH · · Score: 1

    Canada (and Britain) have a history of abandoning promising technology to the USA.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:History by mangastudent · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not sure about the CF-105 Arrow, I mean, the first flight of the US F-102 Delta Dagger was 5 years before, I'd have to look a lot harder to see if they had any special sauce we didn't. But Colossus et. al. were the equivalent of ASICs, useless once Nazi Germany was defeated and no one was sending messages using their particular devices. But in general purpose AKA "stored program" as it was called back then computing the U.K. was quite competitive with the US in the immediate post-WWII period, especially given the economic constraints. See for example the EDSAC and Mark I.

    2. Re:History by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      But it's a 5 years later airplane, at a time when technology was moving very quickly. How does it compare to contemporary late 1950s US competitors, and note that link doesn't include all of the planes for which prototypes were flown but not procured.

    3. Re:History by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not sure about the CF-105 Arrow, I mean, the first flight of the US F-102 Delta Dagger was 5 years before, I'd have to look a lot harder to see if they had any special sauce we didn't.

      The first Dagger couldn't go super-sonic. They did get super-sonic figured out, but Wikipedia says the max speed was still only Mach 1.22. The first prototype Arrow went Mach 1.9 the same year Dagger hit Mach 1.22, and Arrow Mark 2 promised to easily pass Mach 2 due to an engine upgrade.

      Then Canada signed on to NORAD, with an American push for hosting missile defense systems in Canada, and six months later the Arrow was cancelled and every person who worked on it fired that same day. There's still debate today about how much foreign influence affected the cancellation, versus cost-benefit of defense against ballistic missile threats (Arrow was designed to combat bombers.)

      They were pretty expensive, which made justifying them a political decision instead of only an air force one (sort of like the F-35.) Canada had a change of government that year, and that probably played the biggest role in the decision to cancel, as the cost savings for a plane that wasn't needed urgently would be a political windfall. Had it been developed a few years earlier, during or immediately after WWII when the threat loomed large and the need was immediate, I don't imagine it would have been scrapped.

    4. Re:History by PPH · · Score: 1

      But it's a 5 years later airplane, at a time when technology was moving very quickly.

      First, that excuse can be used to never do anything. Better to build them and then follow on with upgrades.

      One of the things that the Arrow was supposed to do was to be a development platform for the Iroquois engine, which used quite a bit of titanium. In addition to making these engines available to other allied jet programs, they were a means to develop Canada's titanium resources and metallurgy. After the Arrow debacle, Canada basically pulled the plug on developing titanium. Only a few years later, the USA had to make up stories in order to buy the titanium it needed for the SR-71 from the Soviet Union. Think about what it would have meant to US defense production to have a next door neighbor with titanium resources, processing and machining capabilities and even some nice engines to buy or license for our own stuff.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    5. Re:History by mangastudent · · Score: 2

      "The first Dagger couldn't go super-sonic. They did get super-sonic figured out, but Wikipedia says the max speed was still only Mach 1.22. The first prototype Arrow went Mach 1.9 the same year Dagger hit Mach 1.22, and Arrow Mark 2 promised to easily pass Mach 2 due to an engine upgrade.

      None of which is very interesting, seeing as how the Dagger's followon F-106 Delta Dart first flew 3 years after the Dagger and 2 years before the Arrow, achieved Mach 3 in a test flight 8 months after the Arrow's first flight, and was generally a Mach 2.3 plane (all at 40,000 feet). And that's not even looking at the other Century Series fighters or whatever the Navy was doing with their constrained to fly on carriers planes.

      I have no dog in the Canadian tech politics angle of this, except for noting that a company I saved when it was young, Lisp Machines Inc. (Symbolics' competitor), was killed off by Canadian politics aimed at an out of favor businessman. As G. W. Bush said, the French have no word for "entrepreneur" ^_^.

    6. Re:History by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      But it's a 5 years later airplane, at a time when technology was moving very quickly.

      First, that excuse can be used to never do anything. Better to build them and then follow on with upgrades.

      Which would be why I immediately followed the sentence you quote with:

      How does it compare to contemporary late 1950s US competitors, and note that link doesn't include all of the planes for which prototypes were flown but not procured.

      Maybe you could try answering that question instead of constructing strawmen?

  4. Bull Crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    More lies by companies to get cheap foreign labour. I work in the IT management field and know many well educated, skilled people who cannot find work. Banks are making record profits and laying off IT staff and out sourcing to India or bringing in cheap labour to replace Canadians. For example
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rbc-replaces-canadian-staff-with-foreign-workers-1.1315008

  5. Salaries-Show me the money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Again... when private companies are offering crappy wages (with high canadian taxes) comparable to other professions with a lower skill requirement (teaching, nursing) with no pension people are going to go where there is opportunity or choose a different profession. And bonus points to the government for importing more workers to depress wages even more....

  6. I'd move to Toronto in a heartbeat. by hey! · · Score: 1

    If I had a job lined up. Toronto is like a smaller, cleaner, better-organized version of New York. The cost of living is 27% less too.

    The only thing is I also do like a place with a little more topography than Toronto, and access to wilderness-y areas within reasonable driving distance. There probably aren't any good places for fly-fishing around Toronto, that's almost a deal-breaker. Maybe Vancouver, then. Weather's better there, too: a bit rainy in the winter but with dry, cool summers with, long, long days. Good summer trout fishing in BC, too from what I hear, and salmon runs starting as early as August in some rivers.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:I'd move to Toronto in a heartbeat. by hey! · · Score: 1

      An hour and half driving's not bad at all, especially if traffic isn't bad. And as much as I like eating fish, I like catching them more so I release everything except hatchery trout, which are no loss to sport.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:I'd move to Toronto in a heartbeat. by karmatic · · Score: 1

      Toronto costs a bit less, but the wages are significantly lower, and if you manage to avoid that, the taxes and cost of living make up for the cost. Ontario healthcare is not particularly as good, so plan on going private for that.

      If you do move to Canada, prepare to pay more for pretty much everything.

    3. Re:I'd move to Toronto in a heartbeat. by hey! · · Score: 1

      Well, waiting times in ER are not necessarily representative of health care quality overall. For example ER waits have traditionally been a particularly weak area for the US, because you have to be triaged along with people who use the ER as their primary contact with the health care system.

      It is hard to find any statistical area other than elective surgery where the US outperforms Canada. Canadians have a longer lifespan, can expect to spend 3.3 more years of that lifespan healthy (i.e. not in a nursing facility), and have lower infant mortality rates than Americans. Now Canadians may simply lead healthier lifestyles than Americans, but the evidence is mixed. Canadians have lower rates of obesity but higher smoking rates.

      Still, even giving American health care every benefit of the doubt, it's hard to statistically paint Canadian health care a inferior. It is, of course, always possible to find individual situations where US health care might have done better.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    4. Re:I'd move to Toronto in a heartbeat. by mark-t · · Score: 1

      The cost of living is less, but you'd also likely find that your income won't stretch quite as far as it used to. The gross pay is about the same after converting between different currencies, but the tax rates are generally higher in Canada than they are in most places in the USA.

      Toronto is right on the shore of Lake Ontario, and I'd be surprised if there isn't at least *SOME* fishing there.

      Vancouver's climate is nicer (and the scenery is probably nicer as well), but the cost of living is also higher there. Vancouver has the reputation of being, or so I've heard, the most expensive place for housing in all of North America (I think it's in the top 3 worldwide).

      (Quick fact double check... yep, I'm right. It's in third place). The only two cities that are more unaffordable than Vancouver are apparently Hong Kong and Sydney.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    5. Re:I'd move to Toronto in a heartbeat. by hey! · · Score: 1

      Well, you get what you pay for. I also note that Vancouver has some of the "worst" traffic in Canada -- the average commuter spends 30 hours annually in traffic. This however compares to a US-wide average of 42 hours/year -- and well over 80 in the Bay Area. In my hometown forget the commute -- which his horrible -- the average driver spends 53 hours per year looking for parking.

      As you get older, you value your time more than money, because you realize its running out.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    6. Re:I'd move to Toronto in a heartbeat. by karmatic · · Score: 1

      "I've found waiting times for ERs are way shorter in Canada"

      This is because Canada prioritizes lifesaving medicine. For most issues, if you have insurance, the US is better. If you make it to the ER, Canada tends to be better.

      "prescription medicine costs a lot less in Canada"

      Sort-of. Non-generics tend to be cheaper, if your income is low. If you're professional class, PharmaCare will often not cover anything at all until you are out $10,000. In the States, prescription coverage tends to be cheaper.

      If your medication is generic, the US is definitely cheaper. Wal-Mart's $10 90 day generics is amazing that way. Moving here, I went from around $30 USD/mo to around $300 USD/mo, because generics cost so much more here.

      "costs are way way less in Canada than in the US."

      Sort-of. If you have insurance in the states, it tends to cover more than what's covered here in Canada. If you need dental work or mental health, forget about it, and I've been waiting more than 6 months here in Ontario for a family doctor. I found a great specialist here in Canada, but my spouse couldn't go there without a referral, and ended up with someone who was just a 5 minute pill pusher. It's hit or miss.

      In the States, you can generally see whoever you want, unless you are on a HMO.

    7. Re:I'd move to Toronto in a heartbeat. by hazardPPP · · Score: 1

      fucking white males.

      Because non-white males don't fish? Never seen a black or asian dude fishing?

      P.S. I wish that bigots on Slashdot would at least have the courage to not post as ACs...if you think you are so righteous, then reveal your nickname (not even your real name!) to the world.

    8. Re:I'd move to Toronto in a heartbeat. by hazardPPP · · Score: 1

      Ontario healthcare is not particularly as good, so plan on going private for that.

      How exactly does one "plan on going" private in Ontario with health care when providing private health care is essentially illegal?

      The only things you can "go private" on are things OHIP doesn't cover, unless you plan to cross the border to the US every time you want to see a doctor.

    9. Re:I'd move to Toronto in a heartbeat. by unixisc · · Score: 1

      So Vancouver is more expensive than Manhattan and San Francisco? That's somewhat hard to believe, even if I believe it.

  7. Official Bilingualism sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It is OK if you get a job in the private sector. if you get a job in tech within the federal government, you have a glass ceiling at the CS-02 level (where you don't manage people) if you are not bilingual.

    There is a reason most senior jobs are held by French people even though they make up a small percentage of the population. Your technical skills barely register, being bilingual is the most important thing. FWIW I have a CBC language ranking as a CS-04, this language nonsense seriously hampers my ability to staff positions.

  8. News flash by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

    Guy who left Canadian job thinks everyone is just like him - more at 11.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:News flash by gachunt · · Score: 3, Funny

      11:30 Newfoundland...

      (If you're not Canadian, you likely won't get that reference)

    2. Re:News flash by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Guess, is it to do with non-integer timezones?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  9. No, keeping 'techies' is a symptom. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The cause is lack of ecosystem, including the lack of useful and scalable Venture Capital. It is impossible to grow a venture backed startup in Toronto, once you reach a certain point and need to raise $15M, you run into problems with your unsophisticated (read: small time, inexperienced and Toronto market size thinking) investors who just want out, or get scared.

    There isn't an ecosystem, so you can't build an ecosystem. And if you built a company, the only way to get scale customers is to sell where there is an ecosystem. Staff, has to be with talent that may come from Toronto, but have gone where there is an ecosystem. The only way to (usefully) exit is to sell where there is an ecosystem. There isn't an ecosystem, so you can't build an ecosystem.

    I'd like to make it work... still looking for a way...

  10. not a visa - want fast track citizenship by cellocgw · · Score: 2

    I could very easily be tempted to move permanently to the Toronto metro area, but a work visa is not enough to tempt me at this stage of my life (more or less closing in on retirement). If they could offer a faster, simpler route to citizenship, that'd get me there pretty quick.

    PS if anyone at my current company is reading this, I don't really mean it.

    --
    https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    1. Re:not a visa - want fast track citizenship by kwbauer · · Score: 2

      Surely their path to citizenship has to be quicker than here in the US, right? All I've ever heard is how horrible the US is for having far more restrictive immigration and naturalization policies than the rest of the world.

    2. Re:not a visa - want fast track citizenship by hazardPPP · · Score: 2

      If they could offer a faster, simpler route to citizenship, that'd get me there pretty quick.

      Unfortunately, there's no such thing (except in certain cases). The only route to citizenship is to first get a permanent residence permit (PR). Once you have your PR, getting citizenship is easy - you have to stick around long enough (3 or 4 years, I forget the exact amount, being most of the year in Canada) - nothing else is required (except, I think, a clean criminal record) - and you can apply for citizenship (once you do, you get it within 6-12 months typically).

      Getting the PR is the difficult part. The easiest way is express entry, if your occupation is on the list of jobs the federal (or a provincial) government deems unfilled by the Canadian job market. In a best case scenario, you would get your PR about 6 months after applying. If you just apply straight for PR without fulfilling the express entry requirements, you might have to wait for years until your application is approved.

    3. Re: not a visa - want fast track citizenship by hazardPPP · · Score: 1

      signed, What Every Canadian Worker Wants To Say, But Won't.

      Including the ones that arrived yesterday, a bunch of them as "brown pigfuckers" and "fake refugees"? What's next in your plan, after genocide in the GTA? Strip a third of the population or so of their citizenship?

  11. How about easy work visas for the US? by ErichTheRed · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One interesting thing Canada could do is make it incredibly easy for US citizens to work in Canada. I know I'd move there if I didn't have things tying me down in the US and could have an easily portable work visa. The climate (both literal and political) is better in my opinion...the issue is that there need to be more than a couple of standout tech companies to create an ecosystem. Nortel was absolutely huge until they went bankrupt after the first dotcom bubble, and BlackBerry has basically run its course.

    I do hear that Toronto and Vancouver are in the middle of a housing bubble though, so I don't know if now is the right time to move there. But, if US citizens could easily work in the Canadian labor market and not be tethered to an employer the way H-1B visa holders here are, I think a lot of people would jump at the chance to move. I've looked into it in the past, and apparently US citizens don't get any special preference and have to deal with immigration the same way everyone else does.

    If they really wanted to accelerate a move, just implement a program where a US citizen with a certain skillset and education can walk into any Canadian embassy and turn in their US passport in exchange for a Canadian one. Overall quality of life seems much better there, so it would just be a matter of convincing people of that.

    1. Re:How about easy work visas for the US? by Funksaw · · Score: 1

      Wages are lower, taxes are higher, economy is smaller, opportunities are fewer.

      But no Trump.

      I punch those numbers into my calculator and it makes a happy face.

    2. Re:How about easy work visas for the US? by Strider- · · Score: 1

      Also, why should US citizens get any special treatment up here as Canadians do not get any special treatment south of the border.

      Well, assuming NAFTA survives, there is special treatment both ways. Canada has an equivalent of the US TN visa that allows Americans with specified certifications and professions to obtain temporary residency in Canada, just like Engineers and so forth from Canada can legally work in the US (in Engineering positions) without much difficulty.

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    3. Re:How about easy work visas for the US? by hazardPPP · · Score: 1

      Americans don't get any special treatment if they want to apply for permanent residency, but yes, for temporary work visa it's much easier if you're American than if you hold any other citizenship.

    4. Re:How about easy work visas for the US? by hazardPPP · · Score: 1

      If they really wanted to accelerate a move, just implement a program where a US citizen with a certain skillset and education can walk into any Canadian embassy and turn in their US passport in exchange for a Canadian one. Overall quality of life seems much better there, so it would just be a matter of convincing people of that.

      Bad idea, a lot of people would do it on impulse (say in reaction to Trump winning another election or whatever), and then be very unhappy when they realize it's not what they wanted and that they cannot go back (I doubt the US would implement an equivalent scheme).

      Besides, I don't think Canada wants to just be swamped by hundreds of thousands of Americans all of a sudden, it's difficult to keep a separate identity as is. Also, Quebec would be super pissed for upsetting the franco-anglophone balance.

  12. The Old-Fashioned Way by seven+of+five · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Want more tech talent?
    Fucking pay them.

    1. Re:The Old-Fashioned Way by Moof123 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This. Money talks.

      We have have 4 Canadians in my small design group of ~20, though only 2 at the moment. For them the pay delta was a 50% raise combined with many more tech options if they needed to change jobs for any reason.

      So not only does pay need to be higher, but you need to attract enough companies that folks who move to work their will feel secure enough in the job market as a whole to be willing to put down roots. The magic of Silicon Valley is that despite being a traffic snarled expensive mess you know that if your current dotcom, or startup folds you can go a couple doors down and pick up a job at the next wiz-bang scam shop, likely with a raise.

      Companies know that if they setup shop it is easy to hire just about any techy person, though it might cost a pretty penny. If time to market is important, then growing talent internally is foolish.

    2. Re:The Old-Fashioned Way by xfizik · · Score: 1

      What's your rent in SF?

    3. Re:The Old-Fashioned Way by vandamme · · Score: 2

      Want more tech talent?
      Fucking pay them, eh?

      FTFY.

  13. "we make the same dollar salary as US people" by enjar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some time ago, I went to up to Montreal for a business trip. Talking with the engineers there, they told me that Canadian salaries are largely the same dollar (number) amount as US firms pay, but their tax burden is far higher, with federal, provincial and VAT taxes taking away a good deal of that salary, plus then the cost of things like gasoline were considerably higher, making the cost of living greater. That can't help. There's also the issue of the climate. Given a choice between working in a warmer climate (California or Texas), working in the Great Frozen North is a really hard sell. There are also other issues like travel hassles to visit family, crossing international borders and so on. I've also been to Toronto a number of times for vacation and I've enjoyed it, but I always went in the warmer months. Toronto reminded me a lot of a cleaner and more polite version of NYC and I enjoyed my vacation, but I've never been there in winter time. People say the lake "helps" but I can still imagine the winter nights being dark and full of Horton's. I can't stand the darkness of winter here in Massachusetts, and geometry tells me it's far worse in Canada. So Canadian firms need to come up with means of sweetening the pot to attract talent, one knob being paying more.

    Disclaimer list: 1) anecdotal, employer could have been stingy, employee could have been a poor performer 2) a big metro area, as they are expensive in the US, too 3) years ago, when the US dollar was stronger vs. CAD 4) comparing COL across countries is hard, as I pay more out of my paycheck for health insurance in the US than a Canadian does, who pays it in taxes.

    1. Re:"we make the same dollar salary as US people" by hazardPPP · · Score: 1

      Just note: Quebec (Montreal) has higher taxes and lower salaries than Ontario (Toronto) in general, although in Montreal the cost of living is cheaper and there a lot more subsidized things (e.g. public transit, university tuition is cheaper). Quebec is in general more socialist than Ontario (and pretty much all of the other provinces), with all the good and bad that that entails.

      I think money-wise, Toronto & southern Ontario compares well to the US, yes the taxes are slightly higher but you get full health insurance coverage for that tax money, etc. From my own perspective as a Torontonian, the main draw to the US would be 1) a cooler job - the things you can do in Canada are quite limited compared to the US and 2) the climate, e.g. California is just so much better in terms of that than pretty much anywhere in Canada. Regarding 2), unless the job was super-cool, I would never move to a part of the US where the climate is similar (e.g. the the northern states).

    2. Re:"we make the same dollar salary as US people" by enjar · · Score: 1

      Yep -- it can be hard enough to make a realistic COL comparisons within the US, trying to compare US vs. Canada adds even another layer of complexity since you add in the respective Federal levels, too. As someone who lives in the northern US, if I was going to go through the hassle of changing jobs AND moving I would agree with you on picking a warmer climate. I'm not going to uproot myself, my family and my career to move somewhere else cold unless I absolutely had to or the opportunity was truly unique. Might as well stay put where we already have things figured out.

    3. Re:"we make the same dollar salary as US people" by enjar · · Score: 1

      I already don't like the length of nights here in Massachusetts. Anywhere more north is going to have more seasonal variation ... I want less. I grew up in the southern US, I really do miss the sunlight, and I certainly could do with less cold -- so Canada has little appeal to me outside of an vacation place to see something new. I'd love to visit Iceland, Scotland, Scandanavia, etc but I don't want to live there. I do seem to recall that the majority of the Canadian population lives within 100 miles of the US border, so I know it's not that different. Also, New Brunswick is in the "correct" time zone of Atlantic time ... the same one Massachusetts (and all the New England states) should really be in, instead of Eastern time.

    4. Re:"we make the same dollar salary as US people" by enjar · · Score: 1
      1. I live in a northern US state, grew up in southern US. Very well aware of this.
      2. See my disclaimer 4. I am no proponent of the US healthcare "system" as it stands today, and for many of the reasons you mention. It's also likely a tremendous drag on entrepreneurship and productivity, and we pay for too much for "the best healthcare system in the world" (sarcasm).
      3. See item 1 in this response. Current state has rigorous gun laws, other states I grew up in didn't.
      4. Reminds me of earlier US administrations. I've heard Canada described as "The US implemented correctly".
      5. No argument there
  14. Canada's real challenges: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Would be simply to realize that while Ontario is in the center of Canada it is not the only concern of Canadians.

    Oh and maybe the idea of a Substitute drama teacher running the country that has no idea what technology actually is. Then again all of this is really to distract from the corruption in his own party and specifically the leadership of Ontario.

    Maybe, just maybe the dumber Trudeau could focus on the problems of current Canadians (such as job retraining for the manufacturing jobs that are being lost) instead of creating the exact same problem that the USA had with H1B visas.

    1. Re:Canada's real challenges: by rholtzjr · · Score: 1

      Well, take your pick. A career politician whose primary goal is to perpetuate their career, or a person that had a profession that was not part of the political establishment? Who do you feel will represent the citizenry better?

  15. I am living it.. by AnthonywC · · Score: 1

    As a Canadian from Toronto who is working in NYC, it is really hard for Canadian companies to compete if the wages are 30-40% lower. Also tech adoption and the scale in Canada just doesn't compare to the US.

  16. we're from the government, and we're here to help by fche · · Score: 1

    "PMJT tries to [help] by increasing funding for technology"

    no thanks!

  17. Re:Climate and taxes by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

    People leave Canada for two reasons: climate and taxes. The Government can't change the weather, but they really should consider fixing the taxation system if they really want entrepreneurs to 'build industries' here. We have 43% incomes tax plus crazy corporate tax rates (Federal and Provincial), small businesses have all the same red tape as large ones which impedes growth. On top of that Trudeau and Wynne have added carbon taxes and are now in process of closing 'tax loop-holes' which are actually reasonable ways for small business owners to actually save for retirement. Now why would anyone want to leave?

    Fear not, global warming should largely benefit Canada. That will solve one of the biggest issues.

  18. Re:Climate and taxes by magarity · · Score: 3, Funny

    People leave Canada for two reasons: climate and taxes.

    I always thought they left to find better beer.

  19. Needs More Startups by Thelasko · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Canada's problem isn't unskilled labor. On a whim, I looked into jobs in Canada after Trump won. (yup, I'm that guy) As a mechanical engineer, there are basically two major employers:

    1. Bombardier -Horribly mismanaged
    2. Mining -Since environmental responsibility was on my mind, I ruled that out.

    There were a few smaller organizations, but they seemed to be shrinking rather than growing. One example is the nuclear power sector.

    If the Canadian government wants a high tech industry, they need to invest in some scientific research. Sure, it's a gamble that will take decades to pay off if it ever does. It's no coincidence that The Bay Area has four national labs, and the most high tech jobs.

    I was at a lab in Ontario five years ago, and that place was struggling. There was so much equipment gathering dust and in disrepair it was astounding! I've since learned that lab went out of business.

    Canada already has a very simple immigration system. A lot of people who can't get into the US go to Canada. One of my coworkers immigrated to Canada from China. He ended up in the US because he couldn't find work in Canada. He used to commute between Windsor and Detroit every day until he was granted a US visa.

    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    1. Re:Needs More Startups by hazardPPP · · Score: 2

      If the Canadian government wants a high tech industry, they need to invest in some scientific research. Sure, it's a gamble that will take decades to pay off if it ever does. It's no coincidence that The Bay Area has four national labs, and the most high tech jobs.

      Canada invests a lot in research (at least in my field), and the universities are quite good. The University of Toronto is on par with any Ivy League university in the States for example. The problem is that a lot of people have nowhere to work once they do their degree if they want to stay in their field of specialization. I've seen tons of people who have Master's and PhD degrees in mechanical and electrical engineering end up as business analysts at banks and consulting firms, doing nothing related to the fields in which they became experts in, because that's the only thing that is open to them if they don't want to move to the US.

      The problem is not government investment in research. The problem is private sector investment in innovation. Canadian companies are conservative. Investors are conservative. Any start-up that wants to make it big in Canada will naturally orient itself towards the US market (which is easy due to NAFTA etc.) and will then end up being bought up by an American corporation or investment fund which then will often move the headquarters to the US. I've seen that happen, Canadian start-ups moving to Silicon Valley because of the investors there, nothing to do with government support.

    2. Re:Needs More Startups by snookiex · · Score: 1

      Since environmental responsibility was on my mind

      Are you aware that most of the things you use daily are made of materials mined somewhere (and in all likelihood, in poorly regulated third-world countries)?. Mining is not bad in itself, and Canada is surely not the worst place in terms of regulation.

      Probably not taking a job in the mining industry lets you sleep at night, but, in fact, you are fooling yourself.

      --
      Open Source Network Inventory for the masses! Kuwaiba
    3. Re:Needs More Startups by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      I've seen tons of people who have Master's and PhD degrees in mechanical and electrical engineering end up as business analysts at banks and consulting firms, doing nothing related to the fields in which they became experts in, because that's the only thing that is open to them if they don't want to move to the US.

      There were a lot of engineers going to Wall Street the around the time of the housing bubble. The finance industry was paying way more than anywhere else. Things seem to have flipped now that tech is booming again.

      Any start-up that wants to make it big in Canada will naturally orient itself towards the US market (which is easy due to NAFTA etc.) and will then end up being bought up by an American corporation or investment fund which then will often move the headquarters to the US. I've seen that happen, Canadian start-ups moving to Silicon Valley because of the investors there, nothing to do with government support.

      Perhaps the Canadian government could invest in a few startups in an effort to keep them within Canada. (Socialism! Scary!) It wouldn't have to be a permanent program. Once a few companies succeed, Canadian VC won't see it as a large risk. It just needs to be demonstrated that success is possible outside of Silicon Valley.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    4. Re:Needs More Startups by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      Probably not taking a job in the mining industry lets you sleep at night, but, in fact, you are fooling yourself.

      A lot of my decisions are decided based on whether or not I will be able to sleep at night. I am aware that I am fooling myself, but so far it's working.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    5. Re:Needs More Startups by hazardPPP · · Score: 1

      There were a lot of engineers going to Wall Street the around the time of the housing bubble. The finance industry was paying way more than anywhere else. Things seem to have flipped now that tech is booming again.

      That's true, however in Canada this is still happening, the banks are strong (they didn't implode or explode during the financial crisis, since they were...conservative, like most Canadian companies), and they like hiring people with tech/science degrees, and there just isn't that large of a tech industry as in the US. The U. of Toronto keeps chugging out electronics graduates at all levels all the time, they are good, however the only major electronics employer is AMD (the former ATI) and they're not very stable. Besides them it's mostly smaller companies or smaller offices of large multinationals. It's no wonder these people end up in the US, W. Europe, and even East Asia.

    6. Re:Needs More Startups by hazardPPP · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the Canadian government could invest in a few startups in an effort to keep them within Canada. (Socialism! Scary!) It wouldn't have to be a permanent program. Once a few companies succeed, Canadian VC won't see it as a large risk. It just needs to be demonstrated that success is possible outside of Silicon Valley.

      There are various government programs for helping startups (at least in Ontario), I've no idea if the money being offered is enough. I think part of the problem is that there aren't that many Canadian VCs, and people who want to invest in VC funds in Canada will invest in US funds since they are so much more numerous, bigger, varied, successful, etc.

      One idea I've seen floated around is co-investment into VC funds, e.g. the government promising to match any investment in a company that a VC makes, or funds where 40% of the money is public and 60% private, etc. I don't know if that would make any difference or be successful though.

  20. Huh. Explain? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

    Does Canada not have H1Bs? Does Canada not have sanctuary cities? Does Canada not have a welcoming policy for refugees from the entire world? Why aren't people flocking to staff these industries? Someone explain, I don't get it. #welcomerefugees

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  21. Re:Easy solution by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

    Just start an H1B program to bring in "highly educated workers" to fill the gap.

    Canada has equivalent visa programs. In general, it is easier for skilled foreigners to go to Canada than to America. It is also easier for foreign students to stay and work after graduation.

  22. It's a simple concept by SilverBlade2k · · Score: 2

    Pay them more, or watch them go to the U.S.

    Can't afford it? Don't bother being in business then. You can't expect to pay high tech workers the same wage as you do a Subway employee.

  23. Re:Climate and taxes by Strider- · · Score: 1

    We have 43% incomes tax plus crazy corporate tax rates (Federal and Provincial), small businesses have all the same red tape as large ones which impedes growth.

    Say what? I just looked at my most recent pay stub, and while I make a good middle class salary, the total deductions from my gross comes out to 24%, including CPP, EI, & Tax. In order to hit that 43% you would have to be well into the six figures, at which point you can bloody well afford it.

    --
    ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
  24. Re:Climate and taxes by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

    So, you're expected to pay the real costs of your pollution instead of externalizing them, and you're complaining? You should be proud to do so, and tell the world about it. You get to practice what you preach, which is a satisfaction that money can't buy.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  25. No thank you by Trondheim · · Score: 1

    When I see the progressive garbage coming out of Canada (e.g. giving the government the power to seize children from parents who don't agree with the child's gender identity, stripping a parent's right to decide how their child is taught about homosexuality), I simply shake my head and say, "No, thank you."

  26. Re:We reap what we sow.... by Trondheim · · Score: 1

    This.

  27. Canadian Here by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    So a couple of points. I'd say generally speaking the pay in the US is more. There are also more opportunity (though perhaps more competition as well). Tax burden is heavier in Canada for sure. I don't think the cold or the darkness really matters when trying to KEEP talent, as they would already be used to it. Trying to ATTRACT talent, well that might be a different matter. Also, another point is that most of the places where these jobs are located are also the most expensive to live in Canada, Toronto and Vancouver for example. Montreal however isn't as expensive, however some might be put off or at least a bit intimidated by living in Quebec and all the French speaking, though Montreal is totally bilingual anyway. I doubt Travel is a big deal, Canada is BIG. I live about 2000 km away from my family for example. There are plenty of families that are spread across the country.

    Then there is the political climate, not to mention cultural. As much as we are good neighbors, and share a lot of commonalities, Canadians in general are a different bunch of people. I know once upon a time I had a bit of a plan in which I was going to work in Canada for about 5 years, then head south for the big bucks. It was about that time that George W Bush was elected. I decided that things were going good enough as they were. It wasn't the only reason of course, but I can't say it didn't enter my thought process. So while money certainly factors into it of course, it isn't everything. That said, at least in Canada's instance, being a bit more competitive on salary is probably one of the key factors that if address might make a big difference.

    1. Re:Canadian Here by enjar · · Score: 1

      Trying to ATTRACT talent, well that might be a different matter. I doubt Travel is a big deal, Canada is BIG. I live about 2000 km away from my family for example. There are plenty of families that are spread across the country.

      To clarify my point about travel, it was specifically for the point of attracting talent and either having family visit you or you visit family. When I was a kid, traveling to Canada from the US was really easy -- you showed a US driver's license and the polite Canadian border guard waved you through and told you to enjoy your trip. Nowadays to consider Canadian travel you need passports ($110/adult, $80/kid), so for my family of four, that's spending $380 just to be able to cross the border. Right now we live driving distance from all family, moving more than driving distance away and adding in border crossing hassles is another thing that can turn people off from moving, especially if you are trying to hire people with experience -- those people tend more towards the "married with children" end of things than you might find with people out of college, for example. At the stage I'm at in my life there's a lot more things holding me in place, but at the same time I bring a pile of experience and know-how with me.

      I know for some people, this is no big deal and they move all around the country, but for my family it's a definite barrier to entry for moving anywhere. I suspect there are people who fall all around the spectrum of how far they would move from their parents, and of course there are plenty of people who want to get as far away from their in-laws as possible. So maybe Canada should have a slogan that says "your in-laws will never want to visit" :)

    2. Re:Canadian Here by hazardPPP · · Score: 1

      I don't think the cold or the darkness really matters when trying to KEEP talent, as they would already be used to it. Trying to ATTRACT talent, well that might be a different matter.

      Paradoxically, in many cases it's the reverse. Immigrants from poor countries are looking for a place where they can get their foot in the door and get permanent residence/citizenship, and the ease of immigration/job availability will trump weather concerns. However once an immigrant from Iran or China for example gets their Canadian passport, it's much easier for them to get a job in the US (and they always have the fallback option of returning to Canada). At this point they might actually make decisions based on the climate and other "first world" considerations.

      I moved to Canada as a kid, and I always hated the long winters - one of the reasons I ended up moving back to Europe for a couple of years (and then realized that in Northern/Western Europe, the weather is worse! At least for my tastes).

  28. This sounds far-fetched by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

    As a Canadian Army veteran, I was trained as an Oracle developer, went to Canadian universities and colleges, and then moved to the US.

    I didn't move for money, or because I didn't like the military or anything, I moved because I met someone who was a citizen of another country with a kid there.

    You can make all the retention programmes in the world and I still would have moved.

    Did I make more in the US? Sure.

    Did I like Canada's single payer national healthcare, run by provinces? Loved it!

    Worry more about the cost of housing and education and the rest will fix itself.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  29. Real story: by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    Canadian tech company hints at Canadian Government to throw money at Canadian tech companies.

  30. Re:Climate and taxes by currently_awake · · Score: 1

    Given that most Canadians leave for America your comment makes no sense.

  31. Re:Climate and taxes by joelb_ca · · Score: 1

    Yes, I am very proud to pay money into my government's general account so that they... oh wait... they do nothing but spend it on other stuff. I would prefer the real polluters deal with it.

  32. Re:It's a global market... by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    To be fair, a lot of us like to live where there is a substantial amount of nature and we don't look out of our bedroom window and see the house next to us. There is more to life than just a paycheque. You have to look at the quality of life you are getting; being able to live close to work and not paying through the nose to be packed into a little postage-sized lot are big concerns. Otherwise you're just living to work.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  33. Re:Raise the value of the dollar by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Actually, why doesn't Canada simply adapt the US dollar as their currency? As it is, the currencies are neck & neck in value, many US companies also operate in Canada, the 2 countries share the same ISD code, sending mail to Canada is like sending mail to the US in that one just has to mention the code of the Canadian province in question (unlike sending mail to Australia or UK). For all that matters, the US & Canada could be like the EU (sans the regulations) when it comes to being a single economic entity.

  34. 'racist' fishermen by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Wonder what he'd have to say about the wanton halal bloodbath every year by Muslims on Eid ul Adha?

  35. Re:Wait, what's a Blackberry? by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Yeah, at this point, I just wonder which one is more irrelevant - Blackberry or Windows Phone?

  36. Re:Wait what? by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Looks like the Canadians, who were only too happy to take in Muslim 'refugees' from the Middle East, were far less enthusiastic about Trump-hating 'Muricans coming over, despite the initial red carpet rollout that they had during the transition.

    If Trudeau wins the next election, we'll need a wall on the Northern border as well.

  37. Re:Why does blackberry have an opinion? by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Is RIM/Blackberry's failure a symptom of any larger Canadian malaise, or something unique to that company? They had a great product, but failed to transition in a lineup of smart phones that would have kept them competitive with Android and Apple. Heck, I know hindsight is 20/20, but had Microsoft formed their partnership w/ RIM, rather than Nokia, and let RIM build on a suite of office applications to complement what Microsoft already had, like Office, OneNote, et al, that could have been a viable offering to RIM's customer base.

    That, and RIM could have used Microsoft's help in having enough cloud backup for their services, so that they didn't go down so often