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Hawaii Approves Telescope On Volcano Sacred To Indigenous People (reuters.com)
A new $1.4 billion telescope will be built atop a Hawaiian volcano indigenous people consider sacred. The team of scientists fighting for the telescope won approval from Hawaiian officials on Thursday after selecting the site and applying to build there in 2009. Reuters reports: The Hawaii Board of Land and Natural Resources voted 5-2 to allow construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) on the summit of Mauna Kea on Hawaii's Big Island, state officials said in a statement. Astronomers consider the summit one of the world's best places to view the cosmos, while Native Hawaiians say the project would disturb holy ground crucial to their connection with ancestors and the heavens. A consortium of scientists initially received construction permits from state officials in 2011. In 2015, the Hawaii Supreme Court voided that decision, saying officials did not follow the proper procedures for a "contested case hearing." That forced the state board to re-evaluate the proposal with more input from opponents. The project calls for building one of the world's largest telescopes atop the dormant volcano.
Which way does liberal outrage swing these days? Is it racist oppression by xenophobic Nazis? Or did science triumph over archaic superstition?
But at large cost as is often the case.
We will see the usual troublemakers rush back in to try and stir up more protests now.
The same ones who have been missing throughout this actual process, because creating public strife and being the center of attention is what the seek, rather than any actual improvement to peoples lives.
So why did you ask what leftwingers will do? Projecting again?
They sent some shaman (or whatever the druggy is called in their religion) to converse with the ancients and they said a gift of a few million bucks could appease them...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
That mountain is not sacred
Their so-called 'native religion' is nothing but a pathetic hoax
They protested because ain't no one give them MONEY
What they are looking for is EASY MONEY
A $1million/year is approximately equivalent to a once-off payment of $20 million well invested. That's about 1.5% of a $1.4 billion project.
The dormant volcano doesn't stop being "sacred" (whatever the hell that means) from having a building on it. Nor does it being "sacred" mean it should be offlimits for reasonable purposes that it might be put to.
Sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of the incredibly loud dog whistles coming from your post.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
The point of dog whistles is that only dogs hear them.
If you can hear them, it means you are one of the people it's targeted at.
Finally, some good news
Being able to hear dog whistles is not unique to dogs. And being able to spot baiting is not the same as taking the bait.
The volcano would have blown itself up?
What could possibly go wrong ?
Typically, the narrative would be about evil white male scientists, paving over the sacred native lands to install their phallic, oppressive astronomy instruments.
Only if this is your first debate and you've never looked into this before. Scientists get pushback for many reasons, but "sacred native lands" rarely has support beyond a few local indigenous nutjobs these days.
Your post would be far more relevant in the 1400s
It is simply your own points being reiterated back to you. If it sounds negative to you, then maybe you're the problem...
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Both arguments have been made here in discussions on this topic, repeatedly. But if you're shocked that Slashdotters prefer science to superstition, maybe you need to look into some grounding.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
During one of my long walks one day, it popped in my head that the only religion that was close to being rational was Gaia worship. Whether it's the Druids or Native Americans or flaky New Agers, they are (sort of) of the rational ones.
You can stand on their God. Physical proof! And since we have evolved on this planet, we are a part of it and anything we do to harm it, harms ourselves. So, revering Gaia is actually beneficial to ourselves.
Sure there's hocus pocus nonsense and meaningless rituals - like all religions - but in a way, it has some rational element to it.
AND on May 1, young women dance around naked in some versions! I see no downside.
I always find it interesting that when the (few) native Hawaiians and their opportunistic supporters go up the mountain, they always seem to do it using the roads that the telescope facilities built and manage/maintain. I guess that part of the desecration is just a nice time saver.
to live in Hawaii are not to be messed with. Truth is there is a lot of very tall mountain ranges all around the globe, that are much taller with much dryer air and virtually no light pollution. Here is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... Also, the higher the mountain the lesser density of the air, which will always result in better results. Who wants to work in Pakistan, India or Chile, if the world can be convinced that Hawaii has the best place for the telescope.
Great, another fascinating and informative post by "drinkypoo".
Has a day ever gone by that you didn't post multiple times? I hope not, you add so much to the conversation.
Hugs and kisses,
Juan Epstein
Or the 1980's. I've been through this before...or at least have scientist friends who have been. Astronomy is not my bag, so I'm on the sidelines eating popcorn.
It is simply your own points being reiterated back to you. If it sounds negative to you, then maybe you're the problem...
The only place I have ever seen the strawman arguments you have made in your initial post was here on Slashdot. In other words, there is this outrage caused by others making similar strawman arguments. It's this feedback loop started by some hysterical person.
Folks here blow some companies' attempts out of proportion that want to bring more women and minorities into tech into this 'hate white male' attitude or something.
And this rage against these so called 'social justice warriors'. There are folks who are pointing out that the tech demographic skews heavily to (young) white males and some companies want to change that. So what?
But many here perceive it as white male hate. Gimme a break.
Many of you people need to get a grip and step out of your bubbles. Your perceptions are wrong.
It's actually the previous leftist narrative pre-2005ish. They were pro atheist, pro science. Lots of slashdoters agreed with and probably still agree with that. The narrative has now shifted back to race with the evil white oppressors and everyone else. They're still anti christian but now pro islam and pro anything that isn't white.
Whistles you say? You mean like these?
https://youtu.be/IawEMxTroBk?t...
Whistles are the weapons of left wing ignorance.
No such thing as 'baiting'. The commentary is valid or it is not. How you react is up to you.
The top of Mauna Kea is spectacular. The road is spooky if there's any fear of heights involved but the view, of the earth in this case, is stunning. And cold as it's windy up there. Well worth the really long drive up and down.
in that case it's more likely it would have blown up the entire island.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Natural Launch into Space!
i would suggest having a few Jesuit "brothers" on staff just in case things get a bit err Hot.
temple to the gods, which in some way that is what it is.
Aloha snackbar!
If everyone agrees to dance naked we're halfway to utopia. Naked doesn't mean "without sunglasses" so we can choose which uh boogie to examine.
The author of this piece has an agenda, lying by omission. There are several large telescopes on Mauna Kea. The "sacred ground" is already highly developed. The new telescope will be built on the site of one of the existing telescopes, which will be remove.
The original plan was to build on a new site. The compromise is to build on an existing site.
The summit of Mauna Kea isn't sacred like a burial ground. The native Hawaiians never went there. It's sacred like Mount Olympus was sacred to the ancient Greeks (they never went there either).
So, build a telescope on sacred ground and risk disturbing the dormant, but mighty Hawaii god of fire and destruction. Right on the tip of a volcano, where his powers are the greatest. I'm pretty sure I've seen a movie that had a plot like this and I tell you, it didn't turn out well for the scientists.
âoe...so you islanders can kick rocks.â
If it ainâ(TM)t jerbus, officials donâ(TM)t care.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
This is good we need science to win over magic more often.
This will just be a sacred volcano with a telescope on it.
Hawaii is beautiful, provides a bounty of bananas, pineapples, and macadamia nuts and has the nice Aulani resort, but the primitivism there is mind-blowing.
Until 1967, 96% of the land in Hawaii was owned by 72 private landowners, the state or the federal government. The land reform was fought until 1984.
NINETEEN FUCKING EIGHTY FOUR.
If it were up to the Hawaiians, they'd kick out the haoles, crown a new king and give up all of their private property.
No!!!!! My mummy only wears pure white underpants. No the sexy lacy ones are bought by evil daddy! Mummy will never wear those! She's to demure and nice and innocent. Even if she is forced to wear them they will all turn innocent and pure white! You people are evil!
Win for astronomy, except the Governor made UH promise to close down 25% of their existing sites on the mountain. Because reasons.
And much more importantly, a big win for the rule of law. Public land is public land, and religious considerations can't be allowed to dictate use of public land.
But you're not, so this is just projection, a guess based off what YOU would do in their position.
Mao, Stalin, and the others you refer to were not non-religious like you seem to think. They opposed religious systems which they couldn't control, and sought to replace them with the State, Party, etc. as the centerpiece. But it was still religion, merely cloaked under a different name.
Lol @ Japan. It's true isn't it? A culture that revere's and respects nature.... But f*ck anything that lives in the sea. That sea sh*t aint nature. Lol
That's our Sacred Mountain.
This is our Sacred Antenna!
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
The Native Americans spent thousands of years killing each other and taking land from each other before Whitey ever showed up.
Ya, they got to eat a shit sandwich, just like the losers always have everywhere on Earth for all of History. And now we have a country which has enough power and influence to try and change that globally, and all you assmonkeys can do is whine about World Police.
I live in Honolulu, visit Puna on the Big Island pretty often.
Please do not paint native Hawaiians as anti-science, they are not.
The protesters are loud, but they represent a fairly small percentage of the population.
Protests are just part of the process of building new structures here.
Things still get built, believe me. They just take longer.
Ob astronomy reference 1 - the ancient polynesians were master navigators who relied on the stars to cross a huge seas in tiny craft without a compass or a map. They were the geeks of their day.
Ob astronomy reference 2 - Many heavenly bodies discovered in Hawaii have been given Hawaiian / polynesian names. The new scope will doubtless add more.
It is simply your own points being reiterated back to you.
Aaah I see you've reached the 'just make shit up' part of the argument.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I'm all for a people's right to self-determination. Strangely, that's not what I hear from the protesters. The problem today is the same problem of 1898 -- yes, Hawaiians are culturally distinct from the mainland, but the economic ties are vital to their community in a fairly literal sense. Hawaiians don't like haoles, but apparently they're willing to hold their noses and take their money.
If Hawaii wants to leave the US, that's fine. We can drop them and let PR be a state, and not have to change the flag. This would be a complete economic disaster for the islands, but the same might be said of the former American colonies cutting political ties with Great Britain. If Hawaiians are saying, "give us liberty or give us death," by all means let them be liberated. What I'm not so sympathetic to is, "give us arbitrary and unlimited economic concessions for all time, or we'll stage protests."
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
your witchcraft.
I just invented tacos!
The USA was originally populated by over a million Indians. And most of them were slaughtered. Or evicted in the middle of winter and left to die. I see we carry on the same tradition over there. I clearly see by most of the posts, that your science religion was offended by their religion.
Religion impedes progress too often.
It was a bad day when that Christian guy, Copernicus, said that the Earth went around the sun.
It was another bad day when that Christian guy named Newton figured out why things fall down.
Then there was that Christian guy, Lemaitre, proposed that the universe began with a "big bang"
I could go on for a long time, but I think I have given you enough evidence to highlight your extreme ignorance.
"Religion" is a broad thing to tag as "bad". It's a bit like declaring that the whacko NAZIs used phrenology, which used to be considered a science, and therefore all science is bad. Never advertise your ignorance, it's the one thing others will buy without much prompting.
You do realize the mental gymnastics some people do to remain"faithful"?
There's a reason an uncomfortably large amount of people who think the world is flat, etc etc.
Creating life in a lab would just be: "only God should do that, you're the devil!"
Grow the fuck up. This is real life. Not fairy tales.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Then Pele can do something about it. Why does a good need helpers?
Uhh when did I say that? Didn't but keep making up your own narratives. They did however all KILL people for the simple fact they didn't believe what they wanted them to believe.
But you keep being a coward
Should have all converted to Islam and placed a mosque on the volcano. In that case nobody would have dared touching it for fear of the allahuakbarkabooming.
It's not just that, you also see these protests happening without anybody actually checking to make sure what the actual religious beliefs of the locals say about sacred ground--the automatic assumption is pretty much "Build nothing on it anywhere, ever" which is, when you think about it, weird in a racist way given that very few cultures actually have that as their approach to sacred ground...and most of the ones I can think of with that approach are ones which didn't have the ability to do even a temporary devotional structure. (Pooling with a fellow anthro geek gets it to "Some Native American tribes?" but we cannot even be sure there because it may be more that the knowledge of the correct thing to build has been lost...)
It gets really ironic here--Poli'ahu might be actually perfectly fine with a telescope on her mountain, but there ought to be no question if the proposal had been a meteorological, geological, or ecological research station.
But, really, the question of the truth of a religion should be completely irrelevant to the whole issue of being polite about things. The history of science is littered with dead theories that linger on well past when they ought to have been abandoned, even to this day...while many primitive peoples' observations are quite accurate even if couched in their religious terminology. Taboos against building things on a site can easily be because they know it's a bad site--but because of how they understood the universe, they attributed something like 'likely to result in mudslide down the side of the mountain' to 'wrath of deity' instead of 'the soil here just is gonna do that if you build here.' Even with modern tech, some of this is things we only can know in hindsight.
Why do people keep saying "the narrative" like there was only one? Why does it seem like people who talk about "the narrative" select one that makes their opponents look bad?
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
You are an idiot.
Then the followers will throw the telescope's designer in!