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Microsoft Exec Says Windows 10 Mobile is No Longer a 'Focus' (engadget.com)

From a report: Microsoft's Joe Belfiore informed Twitter users that new features and hardware for Windows 10 Mobile "aren't the focus" any more. There will be fixes and security patches, of course, but you shouldn't expect more than that. As for why the platform has been all but dropped? The executive boils it down to one main reason: the difficulty of getting developers to write apps. Microsoft tried paying companies to produce apps and even wrote them itself when creators couldn't or wouldn't get involved, but the number of users was "too low for most companies to invest." Why build an app for a relatively small bunch of Windows phone owners when there are many more Android and iOS users? Belfiore himself switched to Android for the "app/[hardware] diversity." It's a bit more complicated than that, of course. You can point to a few other factors in Windows' fate on phones, such as slowness in responding to Apple and Google as well as an inconsistent hardware strategy (you could rarely count on getting a timely sequel to a handset you liked). Whatever the reason, it's safe to say that Microsoft isn't just acknowledging that Android and iOS hold a clear lead -- it's quashing any hopes for a comeback, at least for the foreseeable future.

135 comments

  1. oh by greenfruitsalad · · Score: 1

    words of Nelson Muntz come to mind...

  2. In other news . . . by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    There's a Windows 10 Mobile? So is that targeted for the 4 people that still use Windows Mobile?

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    1. Re:In other news . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      F you !! I LOVE MY Lumia!

    2. Re:In other news . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My tablet runs Windows 10 but it's been a huge pain in the ass. I've had to spend a lot of time stripping out all of the bloatware, shutting down the spyware and disabling updates.

  3. Astounding legit fact 100% true not a scam by dicobalt · · Score: 1

    No longer focusing on something you've already been ignoring. This man gets paid too much money.

  4. Microsoft: release an affordable Android phone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'd love it if Microsoft would release an affordable mid-range Android phone much like what Google's Nexus 4 and Nexus 5 were like

    The price point should be around $300 to $400, at the most, like the Nexus 4 and Nexus 5 were.

    Keep the physical size of the phone reasonable. Somewhere between that of the Nexus 4 and Nexus 5 would be ideal.

    There's no need to go overboard with the hardware. Give us the most bang for the buck, even if this means using slightly older or slower hardware.

    Put some emphasis on reliability and durability. We don't want to have to get a new phone every year because the old one fell apart from routine wear-and-tear.

    Don't waste too much effort customizing Android. Just make sure that there are frequent updates, that they're easy to install, and that updates are provided for at least 4 years after the phone has been released.

    I think that Google has proven that Nexus 4 and Nexus 5 style phones are what a lot of people want. But for whatever reason we've seen Google lose sight of this with their Pixel line, and they've been throwing expensive, high-end, unwanted crap at us for a few years now.

    If Microsoft released a solid mid-range phone, I would very much considering buying one for myself, and perhaps some for my staff and others I know.

    1. Re:Microsoft: release an affordable Android phone! by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

      Why should Microsoft do that, and probably-related: why would you want one from them (compared to pretty much anyone else)?

      I'd think the only reason MS would sell an Android phone, would be to preload software on it to try to lock people into their desktop and server products. If you don't want it "customized" (i.e. bloated) then you're taking away 100% of Microsoft's incentive.

      --
      "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
    2. Re:Microsoft: release an affordable Android phone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd think the only reason MS would sell an Android phone, would be to preload software on it to try to lock people into their desktop and server products.

      That makes no sense. Microsoft's strategy for the past few years has been to move to be more platform agnostic. Abandoning proprietary browser plugins in favour of web standards, developing Office, Skype, OneDrive, etc for Android, iOS, Mac and the web, adding ELF binary compatibility to Windows, etc.

  5. What about Universal Windows Platform (UWP) apps? by fgrieu · · Score: 2

    Universal Windows Platform (UWP) apps where supposed to run on Windows 10 Mobile. Do they remain relevant? Have they ever been?

  6. Android has easy side loading and no dev fees by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Android has easy side loading and no dev fees to put out an APK off the store.

  7. It is official. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It is official; Netcraft now confirms: Windows Phone is dying

    One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered Windows Phone community when IDC confirmed that Windows Phone market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all phones. Coming close on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that Windows Phone has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. Windows Phone is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

    You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict Windows Phone's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Windows Phone faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Windows Phone because Windows Phone is dying. Things are looking very bad for Windows Phone. As many of us are already aware, Windows Phone continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

    Windows 10 Mobile is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time Windows 10 Mobile developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: Windows 10 Mobile is dying.

    Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

    Windows Phone 8 leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of Windows Phone 8. How many users of Windows Phone 7 are there? Let's see. The number of Windows Phone 8 versus Windows Phone 7 posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 Windows Phone 7 users. Windows CE posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of Windows Phone 7 posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of Windows CE. A recent article put Windows 10 Mobile at about 80 percent of the Windows Phone market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 Windows 10 Mobile users. This is consistent with the number of Windows 10 Mobile Usenet posts.

    Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, Windows 10 Mobile went out of business and was taken over by Windows Mobile 6.5 who sell another troubled OS. Now Windows Mobile 6.5 is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

    All major surveys show that Windows Phone has steadily declined in market share. Windows Phone is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Windows Phone is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. Windows Phone continues to decay. Nothing short of a cockeyed miracle could save Windows Phone from its fate at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Windows Phone is dead.

    Fact: Windows Phone is dying

    1. Re:It is official. by bigfinger76 · · Score: 1

      Dead, not dying. Announced weeks ago.

  8. I thought it was the same codebase? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If it's the same codebase, then no special work is needed for Windows 10 Mobile, it gets carried forward by work on Windows 10.

    If it's the same codebase, then there is no "apps shortage", every Metro app written since Windows 8 should work just fine. That was the point of Metro, no?

    If it's *not* the same codebase, then it should be called "Windows Phone".

    1. Re:I thought it was the same codebase? by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      Regardless, they will double down on the tablet UI for desktops and servers. Fuck your keyboard skills, use a mouse.

    2. Re: I thought it was the same codebase? by iampiti · · Score: 1

      Sad but true. Gee! Just give me the option to use the Windows 7 UI

    3. Re:I thought it was the same codebase? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Same codebase is a myth: one needs to maintain the different platforms separately, and they fork on their own. Otherwise, Windows NT/RISC had a common codebase w/ Windows NT on x86, but the former went nowhere. Microsoft doomed itself into becoming an Intel only platform, and when Intel punted on a market, like phones, Microsoft had to, as well. Windows on ARM was always a bad idea

    4. Re:I thought it was the same codebase? by exomondo · · Score: 1

      If it's the same codebase, then no special work is needed for Windows 10 Mobile, it gets carried forward by work on Windows 10.

      It's not the same codebase, that's why it is called Windows 10 Mobile and not simply Windows 10.

      If it's the same codebase, then there is no "apps shortage", every Metro app written since Windows 8 should work just fine. That was the point of Metro, no?

      The point is people don't want to use Windows for Metro 'apps', the advantage of Windows is in its use as a workstation and enthusiast gaming platform (by that I mean custom configurations, highend hardware, various combinations of control mechanisms, VR, etc), neither of which transition well to Metro apps running on mobile devices. We already have platforms for running mobile apps and they do it just fine: Android and iOS. Windows Mobile offers no compelling advantage over the incumbents so nobody wants to use it or develop for it. The OS itself is fine, but there are many fine operating systems that people don't use because they offer less application compatibility with no disruptive advantage in an already established market.

  9. Great, so you fucked up our UI for nothing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1. Make phone with shitty UI.
    2. Make you bread and butter funtion and look like the hated phone UI. To make people like the phone.
    4. Stop making phone.
    5. ?
    6. Profit.

    1. Re:Great, so you fucked up our UI for nothing? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      I'd disagree with step 1. Windows Phone had a pretty good UI (though using the same UI on laptop / desktop devices without touchscreens was horrible, and using a Frankenstein mix of that and the traditional Windows UI was even worse). The problem with Windows Mobile was always the lack of third-party apps, not the core functionality.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re:Great, so you fucked up our UI for nothing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2. Make you bread and butter funtion and look like the hated phone UI. To make people like the phone.

      Their "bread and butter function" is running applications like Photoshop, Solidworks, AutoCAD, Maya, UE/Unity Editor, etc... and they look no different on Windows 8/10 than they did on Windows 7.

  10. "Apps"? by DogDude · · Score: 1

    Perhaps they could consider working on a good phone OS and ignoring the "apps"? For example: I'm a grown-up. I don't use "apps". I want the best phone in order to get work done (calls and e-mail). I couldn't give two shits about Twit-Face-Gram-Chat. I have to imagine there are enough people like me out there that generate enough demand to justify working on the OS.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:"Apps"? by 110010001000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What are you talking about? Even if you were being honest and never ever used apps you would make up about 0.00001% of smartphone users.

    2. Re:"Apps"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps they could consider working on a good phone OS and ignoring the "apps"? For example: I'm a grown-up. I don't use "apps". I want the best phone in order to get work done (calls and e-mail). I couldn't give two shits about Twit-Face-Gram-Chat. I have to imagine there are enough people like me out there that generate enough demand to justify working on the OS.

      Without any apps all you have is a non-functional core framework. Phone, Messaging, & Email are apps on any recent phone. Without apps all you have is a pretty (ugly?) paperweight.

    3. Re:"Apps"? by DogDude · · Score: 1

      I doubt that. There have to be a decent percentage of people who just use a phone for work only.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    4. Re:"Apps"? by DogDude · · Score: 1

      Phone and email and messaging are built into Windows Phone.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    5. Re:"Apps"? by Parsiuk · · Score: 1

      Exactly! I was ready to pay more money, than for Android phone but instead get something what syncs nicely with Windows PC: emails, pics, docs. Nope.

    6. Re:"Apps"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WP already did a lot out of the box. It came with integration with Facebook, Twitter and on Nokia's phones a camera that was far superior to everything else out there. As for ugly, that's what you're left with if you remove the apps from iOS. Android would be ok if it weren't for the fact that it's nothing but a spyware platform for Google.

    7. Re:"Apps"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope.

    8. Re:"Apps"? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The issue is that your work requirements are not everyone's work requirements. For example: email and calls. Yes. But I travel sometimes for work which means: At least a browser to book hotels, flights, rental cars. It means cab hailing apps sometimes. It also means a VPN app so I can get access to the company network when I'm on the road.

      Now here's where apps help: Airline apps to check-in, book, upgrade, gate information. Hotel apps to check-in/check out, request service, get directions. Car rental apps to avoid the lines. I can do 100% of all those things with a browser and phone calls. It's much faster and more convenient to use apps.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    9. Re:"Apps"? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      And Windows 10 isn't spyware for Microsofr?

      Sorry mate, they're all doing it, and it is very much about apps apps apps, and Microsoft could never find a way to compel developers who had been developing on iOS and Android for years to move over to another platform. Microsoft came too late to the party with too little to entice either users or developers. Now they've entered an era when Windows is not installed on a majority of consumer computing devices, so now they're going to have to pay by the Apple and Google walled garden rules.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    10. Re: "Apps"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're scaring these fools. They have invested themselves in careers writing 'apps' for shitty little cellphone screens.

      Don't tell them now that they will have to become 'web developers,' or even worse, go out and find real jobs....

      They are in denial and will continue posting frightened single word 'nope' responses.

    11. Re:"Apps"? by Kjella · · Score: 4, Informative

      I doubt that. There have to be a decent percentage of people who just use a phone for work only.

      You seem to assume apps are just for fun and games. Even our very traditional organization with very limited work needs have added the time tracking and travel expense system as an app (in addition to the desktop version), from what I understand it's quite popular because you can use it for all off-site meetings and stuff and you can fill out your travel expenses as you go. Pay a taxi bill, go to your expense form and type in amount, take a photo of the reciept and done. As opposed to having a stack to process when you get back to the office. Heck, if the last leg is a fixed price like the bus/train from the airport you can be done before you even get home.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    12. Re: "Apps"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a windows phone, and love the interface...i only use a couple of apps...i would rather have a quality os than a bunch of apps. Sad that our society has devolved into a bunch of app junkies who need a new fix every week. Oh well...maybe the next android version will be named butterbean...hopefully leanbean.

    13. Re:"Apps"? by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      I'm a grown-up. I don't use "apps". I want the best phone in order to get work done (calls and e-mail).

      You don't use "apps", yet you somehow get email on your phone?

      Have you never used Waze, or another navigation app?

      I suspect you're being arbitrary here.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    14. Re:"Apps"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, I agree with DogDude. I want it to be a good PHONE, with basic texting thrown in. Facetime on IOS is a nice feature, but it's essentially video phone calling. If it played ZERO games and ZERO videos, I'd be just as happy. There are millions more like us, too - most of whom have money to pay for a decent PHONE.

    15. Re:"Apps"? by irrational_design · · Score: 1

      Wait, you use your phone to make calls? How... quaint. Seriously, the ability to make calls from my phone could be dropped and I wouldn't even miss it.

    16. Re:"Apps"? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      WP already did a lot out of the box. It came with integration with Facebook, Twitter and on Nokia's phones a camera that was far superior to everything else out there.

      "Far superior" is relative. It had some nice integration. And then a few updates later, Android and iOS caught up. The problem was that was all it offered. For other platforms, it was a long time and sometimes never to get an app. It would be even longer to get updates. If you tried to interact with those apps on WP today, you'd find it languishes way behind Android and iOS.

      As for ugly, that's what you're left with if you remove the apps from iOS.

      But you can get apps for iOS. You can't for WP. See the point.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    17. Re:"Apps"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is it about apps that makes them more functional than a website, other than slacking on the design of the website? Do apps even have any inherent utility that a web page can't provide, other than slurping up your contact list, which I would not call a feature?

    18. Re:"Apps"? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      What part of : "I can do 100% of all those things with a browser and phone calls. It's much faster and more convenient to use apps." is unclear to you?

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    19. Re:"Apps"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a grown-up. I don't use "apps".

      You realize that most of Microsoft's revenue-to-date is based on the idea that grownups do want apps and will pay through the nose for them, right?

      Without apps and business' requirements for legacy apps, Microsoft would be out of business. You "grownups" are the reason so many people were stuck with Microsoft throughout the 1990s. You were the inspiration for the "it ain't done until WordPerfect won't run" strategy, because everyone was buying their apps from MS' competitors rather than MS.

      Apps are the main thing that Microsoft cares about. Your "idea" will not even slightly work for them.

    20. Re:"Apps"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better integration with device hardware and better offline access are a couple. Better, more fluid UI is another.

      For work I use an expense tracking app that lets me take a picture of the receipt. I don't think this is possible with a browser based app.
      The way Apple wallet handles boarding passes is better than using a web browser.
      Banking apps (and others) use TouchID.

      The maps app (either Google or Apple) is way better than using maps in a mobile browser.

    21. Re: "Apps"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There may be millions like you, but the overall market is measured in billions. Don't get your hopes up for the return of the Motorola StarTac.

    22. Re:"Apps"? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      And furthermore, what's wrong with entertainment? If you're on a business trip and want to relax with Netflix or Angry Birds to unwind at the end of a long day, there's nothing in the world wrong with having those on your "pure work" device. No sane boss will begrudge their employees that. These aren't just words: I would refuse (and have! refused) to carry a work-issued device that was so locked down that I couldn't use it for the occasional 10 minutes of down time.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    23. Re:"Apps"? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they could consider working on a good phone OS and ignoring the "apps"? For example: I'm a grown-up. I don't use "apps". I want the best phone in order to get work done (calls and e-mail). I couldn't give two shits about Twit-Face-Gram-Chat. I have to imagine there are enough people like me out there that generate enough demand to justify working on the OS.

      While I agree w/ you that most apps are useless, there are some apps that ought to be there on any phone:

      1. Video calling apps: Apple always had it w/ FaceTime, Google got it late, and Microsoft got it after everybody else, w/ WhatsApp's video calling. That's the whole idea of a smartphone

      2. Service apps: Apps like Uber, Lyft, the Uber Partner/Lyft driver apps, banking & financial apps, and so on. Like w/ E*TRADE, I have to use the phone to deposit checks, since that bank hardly has any branches.

      3. Shopping apps - for places like Costco, Macys, Best Buy and so on. While OneNote allows one to make shopping lists, apps to make it smoother.

      4. Exploration apps - like Yelp!, Fandango

      5. A few of your favorite games to keep you occupied while you're waiting either in a restaurant or at a doctor's waiting room

      But yeah, most of us don't need apps like Snapchat, FaceBook, Twitter, Pokémon Go, et al

    24. Re:"Apps"? by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

      Wait, you use your phone to make calls? How... quaint. Seriously, the ability to make calls from my phone could be dropped and I wouldn't even miss it.

      I think making calls is sort of the definition of a phone.

    25. Re:"Apps"? by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      I doubt that. There have to be a decent percentage of people who just use a phone for work only.

      Um, a decent percentage of people's work requires apps these days for things like two factor authentification. People on call have apps to do thier work if they get called. I use VPN and RDC to get things done rather than carry around a laptop, nevermind have to drive across the city to a computer. the CxOs use apps because they don't want to carry around a laptop to get into systems when they have to off site. Stroke doctors use app on phone and tablets to look at X-Rays and give the ER vital information when seconds count. Then there are the banks, taxis, pay parking, food delivery services, etc. that all shuffle you off to use their apps. There are probably a decent percentage of people who don't use apps but there are still a decent percentage of people who don't use email either.

    26. Re:"Apps"? by irrational_design · · Score: 1

      I agree. "Phone" is a misnomer for my pocket computer.

    27. Re:"Apps"? by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they could consider working on a good phone OS and ignoring the "apps"? For example: I'm a grown-up. I don't use "apps".

      By "apps" do you mean you don't use programs? Or did you put it in quotations because you mean something else?

      I have a few different messenger apps (because not everyone uses just phone and email to communicate), a home automation one, remote security camera viewer, VPN, a couple of video streaming services for the occasional on-the-go entertainment, spotify app, maps and a bluetooth mouse one. With the built in calendar, phone, camera, browser, notes, reminders and email apps that pretty much covers my usage.

      Of course everybody is different and Im sure many use theirs as little more than a gaming device but I doubt that many people use purely phone and email though if that's your total use case then pretty much any smartphone is perfectly fine for you.

  11. Re:In other fake news . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    al-Qaeda in Outer Space uses Win 10 Mobile to communicate with its fleet of UFOs. Little green terrorists are coming to get us! ae911truth dot org

  12. I'm still floored by grasshoppa · · Score: 2

    MS was handed a built in majority in the mobile market by way of their market penetration in business desktop and productivity software, and they apparently did everything they could to piss it away. The *moment* they saw what RIM was up to with the blackberry, they should have been thinking to themselves, "We could be doing that so much better, and providing a much better experience".

    Instead, they let RIM eat their lunch, then Apple, then Google. All the while kinda half-assing multiple doomed attempts in what is reminiscent of a shakespearean tragedy.

    --
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    1. Re:I'm still floored by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Instead, they let RIM eat their lunch, then Apple, then Google. All the while kinda half-assing multiple doomed attempts in what is reminiscent of a shakespearean tragedy.

      The problem with MS is they staged a multi-front war and ignored the mobile one. They went against Google in web searches and lost while trying to fight Apple on computer OS. Java was a threat to them so .NET had to be promoted. Then Apple started selling iPods and songs and even though they were not directly competing with MS in any way, MS had to make a competitor.

      MS probably thought that mobile phones were safe. After all RIM and Symbian were making small incremental improvements that they could counteract with some of their previous tactics. They didn't see iPhone and Android coming that would leapfrog not only them but all their smart phone competitors.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    2. Re:I'm still floored by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I think Microsoft saw the problem well enough. They saw that computing was steadily moving over to mobile devices. But they could never come up with a device or operating system that gave developers and consumer any particular reason to move to their platform. They've been all but begging these days for people to develop apps for the Microsoft Store, but nobody cares, because it's irrelevant and who is going to waste their time?

      So we're going to see them continue to leverage the things they do have dominance in; and that's Office/Back Office. They're going to have to play by Apple's and Google's rules, at least for now, but they need to keep MS-Office and Exchange as THE killer applications. They're still going to have their dominance on the PC, but whether that's going to maintain long term fortunes depends a lot on how the evolution of computers proceeds over the next 10-20 years.

      All I know is that my smart phone has altered the way I compute. The bulk of my email correspondence is on my phone, and a lot of casual browsing goes on there as well. I still use a PC at work and have a laptop at home, and use them for coding, spreadsheet and word processing, but that's what they are, workhorses for those things that would be too hard on a phone, and if someone comes up with voice recognition good enough to do dictation, some of my word processing might end up on the phone as well.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:I'm still floored by Dracos · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter how much market leverage MS ever gets in a business sector: they have no clue how to market to consumers. Their only consumer success is XBox, which the brass never cared about and was left to its own whims.

    4. Re:I'm still floored by Rob+Y. · · Score: 4, Interesting

      To be fair, they saw mobile. What they didn't see was Open Source mobile. According to the standard Microsoft playbook

        1. Microsoft would be in mobile - because they 'have' to be in everything, tech wise. But their offerings would have limited appeal - mostly to business execs.
        2. iOS would come out and redefine mobile
        3. Microsoft would observe iOS and see what it takes to be successful.
        4. Microsoft would make a system that works like iOS and sell it to OEM's at low enough prices that they would be the only viable alternative to iOS.

      Google short-circuited that plan at step 4, and Android became what Windows mobile would've been. In fact Android's weakness (being Open Source, it was allowed to diverge enough from the 'standard' to make timely upgrades near impossible) was also it's biggest strength (allowing OEM's to attempt to differentiate themselves led to healthy competition and a great deal of innovation). Would there be hundreds of Windows Phone manufacturers, if all those phones had to be essentially the same on the inside? I don't know. Of course, now many of us would like Android phones to be as stock as possible - having witnessed the downside. But in any case, the alternative to iOS has been established, and Microsoft is at least smart enough to understand that now.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    5. Re:I'm still floored by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      The *moment* they saw what RIM was up to with the blackberry, they should have been thinking to themselves, "We could be doing that so much better, and providing a much better experience".

      Yes, because if there's one thing that comes to mind when people think about interacting with a Microsoft product, it's the quality of the experience. /sarcasm

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    6. Re:I'm still floored by grasshoppa · · Score: 1

      Yes, because if there's one thing that comes to mind when people think about interacting with a Microsoft product, it's the quality of the experience. /sarcasm

      Ok, ya. Fair enough. That's even worse though; a quality UI design isn't really all that hard, yet MS has repeatedly failed to do it for decades now.

      It really should be embarrassing how much they fuck this stuff up.

      --
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    7. Re:I'm still floored by rl117 · · Score: 1

      It's all down to the culture of extreme backward compatibility, both of interfaces and implementations. Look at core applications like notepad, calculator, paint etc. as well as various explorer dialogue windows, control panel dialogues etc. None were changed since their original implementation except for the most superficial tweaks. They made zero effort to update these in line with the rest of the system, which is why the whole thing is a horrible inconsistent mess using several generations of different UI conventions and toolkits. Another example is Visual Studio. Still a 32-bit application despite people asking for a 64-bit version for many years. They refuse to give us a 64-bit build. Why? They are arguing over the performance impact of 32-bit vs 64-bit pointers. Way to miss the wood for the trees. On Linux you have an all 64-bit distribution (with optional 32-bit libs) or all 32-bit distribution. Windows is a huge inconsistent mess, and irrespective of whether the 64-bit build of Visual Studio is slower, it makes it compatible with 64-bit libraries and extensions and all the other advantages of being 64-bit. Microsoft still don't care, but when Visual Studio crashes every few minutes due to exceeding the memory limits of a 32-bit address space, enough is enough. Should be a no-brainer, but still we suffer... Make the whole thing 64-bit, make all your applications 64-bit, and let us move on with our lives!

  13. win32(x86-64)+android phone will be killer by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    win32(x86-64)+android phone will be killer

    1. Re:win32(x86-64)+android phone will be killer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I'm pretty excited about this idea if you add a keyboard, a mouse, and a 24" monitor.
      However I'm not convinced it needs a cellular antenna, so let's just leave that part off. :)

    2. Re:win32(x86-64)+android phone will be killer by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      If you mean "DOA", then I agree. Why would anyone need Win32/64 on a phone?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:win32(x86-64)+android phone will be killer by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      It works with windows apps and is not tied to the shiity MS store.

    4. Re:win32(x86-64)+android phone will be killer by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Most of the actual Windows programs I use would suck very badly indeed on the tiny display and interface of a phone.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:win32(x86-64)+android phone will be killer by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Any businessman who needs microsoft office. Anyone who needs a specific windows program for work. Hey Microsoft, here is how to make this work: Buy a cellphone company, give away a windows phone with free (on network) streaming of TV and music, and free high speed tethering. 5 years of this will give you an easy 25% market share.

    6. Re:win32(x86-64)+android phone will be killer by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      If you mean "DOA", then I agree. Why would anyone need Win32/64 on a phone?

      They wouldn't, but they might need it on a tablet size device, .... and the code is the same.

      --
      No sig today...
    7. Re:win32(x86-64)+android phone will be killer by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Or just live with not owning the platform once and make windows office apps available for the other platforms.

  14. yeah i switched to android in 2010 for that reason by strstr · · Score: 1

    originally I bought myself a Palm Pre. Nice phone, superior OS to Android, but the apps were lacking. Android had many times more apps. Sold the phone, got a Black Berry tho'- the same basic problem: lack of apps, but the OS itself was far superior to Android.

    Been using Android for 7 years now, and it sucks. Ever use a Galaxy S7 Edge by Samsung for T-Mobile for example? When using this device, it takes the proverbial lag every time you interact with it. Menus have such high latency to appear, switching between apps there's high latency, etc. It often takes 20+ seconds for Google Maps to become responsive and fully appear. The entire OS is hosed.

    I have used an iOS device, quite nice actually by comparison. You'll notice by comparing Super Mario Run on Android and iOS, how much faster iOS is. The app loads many times faster, and goes from screen to screen faster. In game, iOS runs at what looks like double the frame rate, never drops frames, never glitches up. On S7 Edge, which has superior hardware to iPhone 7, the game glitches up, drops frames, lags, and appears to run at a lower resolution and/or lower frame rate the entire time.

    Think I've been dealing with laggy phone issues ever since landing on Android.

    Life on Android is sad. I was hoping that phone manufactures would allow their phones to dual boot, so I could install another OS, such as Firefox OS, Ubuntu, or Windows 10 Mobile. Overtime as we had choice of OS, people might develop more apps for other OSes, and ditch Android's cheap laggy feel.

    What I recall is the issue on Android is the Java Virtual Machine system they use. Articles I read years ago proves iOS apps use 10 times less CPU to do the same task, and perform roughly 10 times faster. This is how iPhone with a mere dual core was able to trump a quad core Android in all tests at the same task. Furthermore Android uses overly aggressive power saving features, preventing the hardware from performing.

    Nothing like trying to use your Android, watching it lag. While it appears to be unable to perform, it sucks up the juice, and produces a lot of heat warming your hand. WHAT A RETARDED ASS PRODUCT..

    Unfortunately I can't switch to iOS because I need telephone recording features which Android supports, plus I like browsing the desktop version of websites by default instead of Mobile versions.

    https://www.trumpsweapon.com/

  15. A burn Nokia by DrYak · · Score: 3, Informative

    Instead, they let RIM eat their lunch, then Apple, then Google. All the while kinda half-assing multiple doomed attempts in what is reminiscent of a shakespearean tragedy.

    And managed to burn Nokia in the process (who were in a very strong position before Stephan Elop and Microsoft happened to them).

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:A burn Nokia by bazorg · · Score: 1

      Can you expand a bit on how very strong Nokia's position was, the moment that iPhone went on sale?

      I certainly don't remember things that way.

    2. Re:A burn Nokia by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Nokia killed themselves long before Microsoft got involved. Going with Windows Phone was a long shot that might have worked. Keeping their existing strategy of 6 independent teams all trying to sabotage each other and ignoring the fact that there was actual competition in the smartphone market was an even worse alternative.

      Nokia has a well-designed kernel (Symbian EKA2) with a horribly dated set of userspace APIs designed for a time when 2MB of RAM was a lot. Their solution? Replace the kernel with Linux and then fight internally about what the userspace would look like, so each line of phones needed apps specially written for it and had a shelf life of about 2 years before it was replaced with an entirely incompatible set of APIs that required large parts of the apps to be rewritten.

      Outsourcing OS design to Microsoft was no worse than this, and if Microsoft had managed to persuade anyone to write Windows Phone apps might have worked. There were a lot more third-party apps for Windows Phone than for the last couple of attempts for Nokia to build their own ecosystem after a decade of pissing off everyone who used to like their stuff.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:A burn Nokia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MeeGo died because of Microsoft, N9 was loved by it's users... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N9

    4. Re:A burn Nokia by Uecker · · Score: 3, Informative

      You remember incorrectly. I followed this story very closely at that time. Nokia was not only - by far - the largest smartphone vendor, it also was the fastest growing smartphone vendor in absolute number (different analysts published numbers). The smartphone unit was also extremely profitable (the numbers are also public). Nokia also had an new mobile platform in the pipeline (Meego) as a replacement for their older Symbian smartphone OS with several phones nearly finished (only the N9 was then sold which got stellar reviews and some prestigious awards.) They had a convincing plan to transition developers from Symbian to Meego via Qt. They had some initial set of working apps for Meego including third party apps. And all this at a time where Android was still small. .

      It is also true that they had no significant presence in the US. They also lost market share in smartphones. (Despite growing fastest in absolute numbers. This may happen if the overall market grows rapidly and new players enter the market.) For some reasons (some say large investors from the US pressured them), they hired Stephen Elop. Stephen Elop cancelled Meego, declared Symbian obsolete already before a replacement was ready, and switched to Windows Phone which alienated their workforce and customers. Sales immediately collapsed. (Who would by a phone with a OS the vendor himself has declared obsolete?) Only the N9 was brought to market and it sold well in the few markets it was released in (no major market). Windows Phone never cathched on and smartphone unit never recovered. Samsung came and filled the void. Later the smartphone unit was sold to Microsoft.

    5. Re:A burn Nokia by Kiuas · · Score: 2

      You remember incorrectly. I followed this story very closely at that time. Nokia was not only - by far - the largest smartphone vendor, it also was the fastest growing smartphone vendor in absolute number (different analysts published numbers). The smartphone unit was also extremely profitable (the numbers are also public). Nokia also had an new mobile platform in the pipeline (Meego) as a replacement for their older Symbian smartphone OS with several phones nearly finished (only the N9 was then sold which got stellar reviews and some prestigious awards.) They had a convincing plan to transition developers from Symbian to Meego via Qt. They had some initial set of working apps for Meego including third party apps. And all this at a time where Android was still small. .

      It is also true that they had no significant presence in the US. They also lost market share in smartphones. (Despite growing fastest in absolute numbers. This may happen if the overall market grows rapidly and new players enter the market.) For some reasons (some say large investors from the US pressured them), they hired Stephen Elop. Stephen Elop cancelled Meego, declared Symbian obsolete already before a replacement was ready, and switched to Windows Phone which alienated their workforce and customers. Sales immediately collapsed. (Who would by a phone with a OS the vendor himself has declared obsolete?) Only the N9 was brought to market and it sold well in the few markets it was released in (no major market). Windows Phone never cathched on and smartphone unit never recovered. Samsung came and filled the void. Later the smartphone unit was sold to Microsoft.

      You got some things right (Elop took a wrong turn and killed the company), but it's not quite as straightforward. Nokia was losing market share way before they ever hired Elop. Their share of the smartphone market fell from 50,8 % in Q2 of '07 to 37,3 % in Q2 of '10. The reason was quite simple: the iPhone Meego was taking too long and they were getting their asses kicked by Android and Apple. Symbian was just way too outdated to match the iphone, and the iphone 3G/3Gs just made the situation worse and the fall more rapid.

      The company panicked, and the investors panicked and saw the management as incapable of recovering from this tailspin. Elop was hired to turn the course, but instead of pushing Meego out asap they went with windows phones which sealed the fate of the company.

      But the general point is this: Nokia had dug their own grave way before Elop. They didn't see the paradigm shift to smartphones early enough. I know that Nokia had its first prototypes of a touch screen operated smartphones in the works slightly after the turn of the century but the project was canned as too clunky/expensive. They weren't ready to compere with the iPhone, and they falsely assumed that they could maintain their market foothold with regular 'dumb' phones until they could switch from Symbian to Meego/something else but they did not expect the rapid pace of expansion of Apple into the market, or the rate at which dumb phones would lose relevance in the advanced economies especially.

      Source: I know people that used to work for Nokia way back in its prime, as well as having studied the downfall of the company as part of my business administration studies here in Finland,

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    6. Re:A burn Nokia by Uecker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You got some things right (Elop took a wrong turn and killed the company), but it's not quite as straightforward. Nokia was losing market share way before they ever hired Elop. Their share of the smartphone market fell from 50,8 % in Q2 of '07 to 37,3 % in Q2 of '10.

      This agrees with what I wrote. I think these number are what caused the panic reaction. But measuring percentage changes with a growing total is just a meaningless thing to do. Let's say you sell 50 items and one year and 90 next year. Somebody else realized this is a profitable business and sells 10 item (after selling 0 before). Then your market share dropped from 100% to 90% despite this being a very successful business.

      The reason was quite simple: the iPhone Meego was taking too long and they were getting their asses kicked by Android and Apple. Symbian was just way too outdated to match the iphone, and the iphone 3G/3Gs just made the situation worse and the fall more rapid.

      This true except that Nokia still was highly profitable and the largest vendor. This would have been an excellent position to introduce Meego. Although earlier would have been better, I disagree with the statement that it would have been too late.

      The company panicked, and the investors panicked and saw the management as incapable of recovering from this tailspin. Elop was hired to turn the course, but instead of pushing Meego out asap they went with windows phones which sealed the fate of the company.

      Here I agree.

      But the general point is this: Nokia had dug their own grave way before Elop.

      Why? Again, they where highly profitable before Elop and already working on Meego. In my opinion, it is clear that they would just have to continue with this strategy and they would have been fine.

      They didn't see the paradigm shift to smartphones early enough. I know that Nokia had its first prototypes of a touch screen operated smartphones in the works slightly after the turn of the century but the project was canned as too clunky/expensive. They weren't ready to compere with the iPhone, and they falsely assumed that they could maintain their market foothold with regular 'dumb' phones until they could switch from Symbian to Meego/something else but they did not expect the rapid pace of expansion of Apple into the market, or the rate at which dumb phones would lose relevance in the advanced economies especially.

      I don't understand this. Symbian phones were not dump phones. Also when Nokia collapsed, it was Samsung and Android filling the void - not Apple. Meego was much better than Android. So why do you think it would have failed?

      Source: I know people that used to work for Nokia way back in its prime, as well as having studied the downfall of the company as part of my business administration studies here in Finland,

    7. Re: A burn Nokia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for bringing that up.

      Let me leave this here too:
      http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/07/the-sun-tzu-of-nokisoftian-microkia-mirror-mirror-on-the-wall-whose-the-baddest-of-them-all-waterloo.html

      To all those who mention that Nokia was already in the way down, please don't forget that Nokia was never really there when it comes to the USA market, perhaps the same holds true for Canada.

      The rest of the world is another story.

      Yes, until 2011 at least, Nokia ruled. Not North America, but the rest of the world.

      You can read the above link, or many other stories on the web.

      Journalistic representation often make it seem like Apple took the mobile world with storm, but everyone agreed the first few iPhones were crap for calling and texting.

  16. Welcome to the BIG LIE. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft loved to push this "Big Lie" that Windows Mobile is exactly the same as Windows. They "proved" it by showing Halo running on Windows Phone, except... it was "Halo: Spartan Assault", not the actual Halo game.

  17. A disturbance in the Force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As if thousands of developers working on UWP apps were suddenly silenced.

  18. They did it to themselves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only reason Windows phone (except for the "Silverlight" only CE based disaster after WM) failed was greed.

    They HAD to try and be the next Apple and lock everything down and deny any and all meaningful user choice or customization while continuing to double and triple down on the most spartan fugly pedestrian interface imaginable.

    They HAD to try and be the next Google and spy on everything you do to the point where your device is essentially a dumb brick without a Microsoft account.

    If they would have released a Windows phone that just ran windows with a customizable and replaceable mobile shell without the artificial constraints and spyware.

    If they would have released a phone that easily ran ALL of your windows apps when docked or cast to a display.

    The WM crowd would have never abandoned it. Windows developers would have contributed to it.

    MS as a company is dead. They are incapable of getting past their greed ... over their foolish emulation of Google and Apples business models. Greed and greed alone will be what leads to the death of this company.

    1. Re:They did it to themselves by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "They HAD to try and be the next Apple and lock everything down and deny any and all meaningful user choice or customization"

      I think you meant Apple had to be the next M$ when they entered the phone market. Lock-out, intentional incompatibility, and lack of user choice are patented by Microsoft and merely licensed by Apple.

    2. Re:They did it to themselves by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      Microsoft is in an unfortunate position because the thing that they don't like about their platform is the thing everyone else does. A load of the old Win32 APIs are horrible designs for security and make it very difficult to impose sensible sandboxing policies post-hoc. If you want to make a secure Windows system, then the best thing to do is throw a load of that away and move to a more modern set of APIs that are designed with security in mind from the start. There's only one problem with this: most people who run Windows do so because they like their Win32 apps and want to keep using them.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:They did it to themselves by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Microsoft is in an unfortunate position because the thing that they don't like about their platform is the thing everyone else does. A load of the old Win32 APIs are horrible designs for security and make it very difficult to impose sensible sandboxing policies post-hoc. If you want to make a secure Windows system, then the best thing to do is throw a load of that away and move to a more modern set of APIs that are designed with security in mind from the start. There's only one problem with this: most people who run Windows do so because they like their Win32 apps and want to keep using them.

      In my view the only remotely tractable enforcement point for a general purpose operating system is hypervisor. Anything beyond this is a lost cause way too complex to have any hope of constraining access without expecting a steady nonstop drip of vuln after vuln.

      The complexity of Win32 is completely ignorable and when considered in overall context UWP isn't much better from surface area perspective. What we need are better hypervisors, better hardware (MMU) support and more effective management schemes where the concept of access controls are de-emphasized in favor of seamless isolation.

    4. Re:They did it to themselves by rl117 · · Score: 1

      The problem is that they are still trying to lock people in. If they wanted everyone to switch to UWP (the new universal runtime) then they shouldn't have locked it down to apps using the store. The should have made it easy to use and adopt, rather than giving people good reasons not to use it, solely because they wanted to strong-arm developers into using the store. Talk about shooting themselves in the foot!

    5. Re: They did it to themselves by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wtf are you on? Win32 is the most open system that's ever been commercially viable.

  19. Re:What about Universal Windows Platform (UWP) app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They're only relevant if you think the Windows App Store will be around long, or maybe if you really want your app to run on an XBox.

  20. They needed to focus on X86 on ARM by Deathlizard · · Score: 3, Informative

    The best thing MS could've done to save the platform is to focus on running x86 on ARM. At least at that point, phones like the HP Elite x3 would have made sense.

    Unfortunately, with HP pulling the plug on the x3 and no real focus on the ARM platform other than as a novelty as well as Intel threatening lawsuits over x86 emulation over ARM, The windows phone market (as well as Windows on ARM for the most part) is all but officially dead.

    1. Re:They needed to focus on X86 on ARM by rl117 · · Score: 1

      They definitely should. But they intentionally made ARM a second class platform by locking it down to only use store apps, as well as locking out other OSes from the UEFI BIOS, etc. If they wanted it to be adopted, they should have given us reasons to want to use it, rather than reasons to avoid it. I wouldn't have minded using and developing on ARM. But a locked down system which is only useful for a small number of apps, and which I can't also boost with FreeBSD or Linux, is a system I won't be bothering with.

    2. Re:They needed to focus on X86 on ARM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All they needed to do was full-unlock the walled garden to native windows programs on ARM. There were hundreds of full-featured applications ready to be cross-compiled that already worked on ARM and already worked on Windows so the combination would have been trivial.

    3. Re: They needed to focus on X86 on ARM by Deathlizard · · Score: 1

      That was windows RT. They didn't allow software installs outside of the windows store and barred recompilation of existing apps to arm. It bombed. The closest thing to this is Windows 10S, which will also bomb unless the OS is free, which it's not. At least you can upgrade it to pro though.

      Windows 10 arm is pretty much windows 10 pro on arm. They would support existing app recompile to arm as well as existing compiled x86 apps (but not x64). Its what windows RT should have been in the first place, but no one is going to build anything to put it on either because OEMs don't trust MS to stick with it or because it only works on Qualcomm processors. So other than MS making a surface arm, it's pretty much DOA.

  21. Birds fly backwards and donkeys speak! by hyades1 · · Score: 1

    "Microsoft Exec Says Windows 10 Mobile is No Longer a 'Focus' "

    So for the first time since the Universe was a pup, Microsoft and users actually agree about something.

    Truly, these must be the End Times.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  22. Yeah that really sucks... by shaitand · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Imagine how much sympathy we all have for Microsoft having to face a target market completely locked in by one or two competitors.

  23. I just switched after ~7 years of Windows Phone by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 2

    I had Windows 7, 8, and 10 phones -- the Samsung Focus, Lumia 920, and Lumia 950.

    7, 8, and 8.1 were great. Excellent UI -- better than Android or iPhone in my opinion. Very usable, clean, and never laggy. It could easily run smooth on hardware Android would choke on.

    10 has been a horrible experience. For the two years I had my Lumia 950, I had constant problems. A patch would fix one thing and break another. Bluetooth never worked reliably. It somtimes became slow --- slow like Android was slow -- for seemingly no reason at all until a reboot. About a year into the phone, a patch came out that made GPS sporadically stop working until rebooting the phone -- which only exacerbated the Bluetooth issues, as the phone would often not reconnect to my car after a reboot.

    I now have an LG V30 that I picked up a few days ago. It is one of the few headphones not only keeping the headphone jack, but doubling down on it by making it super high quality -- I want to vote with my wallet. I'm not happy to be using Android, but I am *extremely* happy to not be using Windows 10 Mobile.

    I can only imagine the massive costs Microsoft eat as a result of their mobile lineup. 7 was an all new shell. 8 dumped that shell for a new one, and also brought in the NT kernel. And finally 10 dumped the mobile shell to make the same code shared between desktop and mobile. That was a huge amount of churn.

  24. MS missed the shift to mobile by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MS is in deep trouble right now. They have utterly failed to capitalize on the mass consumer shift from desktop to mobile devices. The desktop market is declining, and tearing into their core business in the process.

    We've seen this proces repeat many times before:

    * workstations canibalized mainframe sales
    * desktop PCs canibalized workstation sales
    * now, mobile is canibalizing desktop PC sales

    The trend is toward smaller, more mobile and user-friendly devices. MS is still trying to sell a very complex and un-friendly environment. They need to find another revenue stream, because that one isn't gonna 100% die out but it is sure as shit gonna fade, just like we don't have 15 different huge companies selling mainframes any more.

    You adapt with the times or die.

  25. Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    1. Deprecate the existing WinCE platform and force developers to update their code to the XAML/Silverlight/.NET Platform for Windows Phone 7
    2. Deprecate Silverlight, force everyone to switch to C#/C++/Metro backend
    3. Deprecate C#/C++/Metro, force everyone to switch to Universal Windows Platform and whatever that supports

    Most developers bailed at step 2.

    1. Re:Development by mcrbids · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a developer myself, I watched the clusterfu#! of Microsoft launching, then dropping, platform after platform... And every time they did that, I thanked myself for not investing in the previous platform!

      Want to guess how much that made me want to invest in their next platform?

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    2. Re:Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      As a Microsoft-stack developer, I never got started on this path. I still, to this day, have WinCE/WinMo/WinEH programs that I have to maintain.

      WinCE is still supported until 2020. But development for it got a LOT more difficult under Windows 10, and then EVEN MORE difficult with the 1703 (Creators Update) version of Windows 10. Development for that old-ass platform requires VS2008 (VS2010 broke compatibility with a lot of tools). VS2008 uses ActiveSync/WMDC to deploy code to a test device. (And I have to use a test device because device emulators lack real-world features like barcode imagers and such.) But WMDC support was dropped in 2012.

      So when Win10 came out, it broke compatibility with the WMDC application up to and including the version you can download and install from the web... but not the version that had a hotfix to make it work with Windows 8.0 that installs automatically through Windows Update when you plug in a WMDC-able device. The fix was to make sure you NEVER installed WMDC manually, but instead, allowed it to install automatically when you plug in a device.

      Oh, but it gets better... When the Creators Update (Win10 r.1703) came out, they made svchost.exe stop hosting things together by default, since, in theory, this makes services more stable and less prone to being taken down by a service in the same host instance. But this broke the services that WMDC uses to communicate with devices through USB. WcesComm and RapiMgr use a common mutex for some reason, which ensures that they either MUST be running under the same svchost.exe instance, or else the late-comer (whichever one starts last) will crash. So to make these work under 1703, you have to add a registry flag to tell SCM to NOT separate them into separate instances of svchost.exe. This makes these processes crashy AF, so you then have to set the "if it crashes more than twice" option to "just restart the stupid POS" in the service properties.

      I have yet to be "forced" to adopt any of these newer platforms or frameworks. I have yet to ship even one project with any XAML code. I never touched Silverlight, WP7, WP8, or "Metro". I've dabbled a bit with UWP. (Good job mischaracterizing all of these things completely, though. It's great that you confuse languages, frameworks, platforms, and UI guidelines as all the same thing.) In the near future, I'll probably be "forced" to develop replacements for these WinCE/WinMo/WinEH apps for Android and/or iOS. I'll be using Xamarin, because, honestly, C# is a damned fine language and I just don't want to be bothered writing multiple different apps in multiple different languages, and with a different language on the back-end, too. There's just no good reason to adopt Java or Swift when you already use C# and Xamarin is available.

      And in case you didn't notice, Xamarin is the next step in UWP. It will remove the "W".

    3. Re:Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget that Microsoft forced developers to use the Windows 8 for development, even though it was banned from corporate networks at the time. Even if developers were willing to use that piece of crap OS, their corporate IT did not allow them to use it. The remaining developers were also deterred by making each phone generation completely incompatible with each other, which reduced the potential customer base even more.

    4. Re:Development by tazan · · Score: 1

      I was WinCE developer, loved coding mobile apps, was not excited when told I had to learn completely new skillset to move to WinPhone 7. Then was told I needed a new skillset for 8, then found out silverlight was dead. It was more like step 1.5 I was moving out the door, step 2 did give me that final shove though. They had a ton of developers at 6.5. They dumped them when they went to 7, that's what baffles me.

  26. Re: yeah i switched to android in 2010 for that re by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nexus 6 with PureNexus here. Zero lag.

    My wife's Nexus 6 is stock and lags like you describe. I think Android slows down over time like old windows used to...

    My uncle had a Samsung S5 and it was a complete dog.

    Try using a Pixel. You may be surprised.

  27. Serial murderer of products by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft drops anything and everything they do other than Windows and Office whenever a beancounter somewhere decides it doesn't make (enough) money. And they do it quickly.

    So why would anyone buy anything from Microsoft that relies on any kind of post-purchase support (patches, new features etc)?

    They've murdered so many music services I've lost count and I still remember how they nicely dropped original XBox like a hot potato immediately after X360 launch. I'm actually amazed how long X360 is still supported, but I guess that's because it still makes money so beancounters haven't got to it yet and it probably shares quite a bit of infrastructure with XBox One.

    1. Re:Serial murderer of products by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Microsoft have grown fat and lazy thanks to the Windows and Office lock-in, where they could release any old crap and users had little choice but to buy it. They're simply unable to build new products that users would want to buy.

  28. Re:What about Universal Windows Platform (UWP) app by Rob+Y. · · Score: 2

    Whether Microsoft likes it or not, the future of Windows is Win32 apps. That's what forces people to keep using it, and almost nobody who has written an extensive Win32 app is going to rewrite it as a Metro app - though some will rewrite their apps as web apps, Android apps or iOS apps. The app store may someday be chock full of Win32 apps if their ChromeOS competitor ever takes off.

    Microsoft has moved on - and their current focus seems to be to attempt to usurp Android, and 'own' it without having to own it. I don't expect great success there either - but if they're allowed to keep extorting patent fees from Android OEM's, they may be able to trade those for a bit of the OEM's souls... ...or maybe they'll just continue to shift their focus to the cloud - which after all, they can actually charge for.

    --
    Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
  29. It's a real shame too. by Samurai+Nigel · · Score: 0

    Not only was it nice to have a third choice of mobile OS, but it was easily the best performing and best-looking of the three, IMO.

    There were problems almost everywhere else (hardware, app stability, app selection, etc etc.) but the really nailed the UI of the OS itself.

  30. It actually happened by oakgrove · · Score: 1

    A few years ago when Windows Phone 7 came out, I remember having a blast hanging out on tech blog forums like Engadget and The Verge and trolling against it. I would write long screeds about how much it sucked, how terrible tiles were, the lackluster hardware, how much Android was better and on and on. Of course the WP7 fanboys would hit right back about how Android lagged and you need overpowered hardware just to run it and how the apps sucked and on and on. It was a blast. Really all in good fun until I finally got bored with the whole scene and moved on. I pretty much forgot about Window Phone until seeing this now. Funnily enough, it doesn't feel as triumphant as I may have thought it would. Another piece of tech whether I used it or not, snuffed out. Damn. I guess throw it on the Palm Pre, Nokia 900, Symbian, etc. pile. Now I'm getting older I'm out of the fanboy stage I'm growing a bit tired of Google and the data siphoning. Don't care for Apple and the walled garden. Hopefully something new will rise from the ashes soon. Of course something always does. Like when IE seemed unstoppable and Mozilla Sunbird/Sunfire/Phoenix, I can't even remember the exact name, started the browser revolution. Excited to see what's next.

    --
    The soylentnews experiment has been a dismal failure.
  31. Let me know when Android gets 41MP Pureview. by edgedmurasame · · Score: 1

    It's quite bad when the Nokia 1020, a circa-2013 phone, can hold its own with modern-day Android devices, much less be able to run more modern code. (Yes, I have both Android and the 1020. I'd just like to see a better camera versus "better processing".)

    --
    "Forget the engineers." -Carly Fiorina, briber of MIT Technology Review.
    1. Re:Let me know when Android gets 41MP Pureview. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      My partner just replaced her Nokia 1020. It was quite depressing how much better the 1020 was than the replacement in almost all regards. She'd probably have kept it if not for the fact that it didn't speak a modern version of TLS and so was breaking with an increasing number of web sites. It's a shame no one managed a decent Android port to the 1020 - I'd love to put LineageOS on it.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  32. I love my Lumia, but Microsoft lost their way by lowkeyknight · · Score: 1
    I love my Lumia 950, and I'll miss it, but to be honest, I was carrying an iPad with me for boarding passes and comixology and all the apps that weren't being written for windows 10 anyway.

    I always used to say, Apple OS let you do anything that APPLE thought of really easily and intuitively, without really learning anything, Microsoft OS make you learn the damn thing so you can do whatever YOU can think of. (yes yes yes Linux! but for the masses, the argument holds) The moment Microsoft made an environment where that wasn't the case, where the user and third party programmers weren't encouraged to tinker and be in control was the moment the downward spiral began.

  33. Re:What about Universal Windows Platform (UWP) app by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    Microsoft has been trying to make it easy to use Visual Studio to write iOS and Android apps. I can see that one possibility would be make it easy to use UWP to write apps that worked well on iOS, Android, and Windows, then come back to mobile devices when there are enough apps that use it and can become mobile Windows apps with a simple recompile.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  34. Coming in April 2019 by portwojc · · Score: 1

    The foreseeable future means what 18 months tops before they try this yet again? At first you don't succeed try and try again and hope the consumers forget how you bailed on the market before.

  35. windows core licensing sucks now by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    With the rule that you must license all cores in the cluster at a min of 16 per server. That kills for clusters that have a few windows servers and lot's of non windows one. The idea that you must 1 windows only is bad as now you can't update the host without down time.

  36. No wonder, UWP was born of hate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If I didn't know better, I'd think Microsoft scuttled their mobile direction entirely. They killed off WPF and Silverlight and all their devs left in anger. Steve Sinofsky was the big player in this. He killed Microsoft more than Ballmer.

    UWP has zero business UI controls. That is something Microsoft could have done in its sleep if Nadella were smart and not a plant.

  37. Re:What about Universal Windows Platform (UWP) app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF is a "Metro app"? Oh, you meant that beta version of cross-device compatibility that they released back around 2011-2012 that didn't correctly support the memory-managed runtime they've been pushing everyone toward for a decade and a half? That they renamed? That they sunsetted when they released the final version and got it out of beta with proper managed-code support? That they've changed the design and style guidelines of 3 times since then? You're right. Nobody writes those. Anybody who stuck with the platform has long since updated past "metro" and is building UWP apps.

    It was just two years ago that they showed off the ability to develop iOS and Android apps through UWP. I expect that, with their acquisition of Xamarin, they'll continue to push that direction. Because they're still about the Embrace, Extend, Exclude cycle. (That's the correct version, because they only Extinguish if that's the only way they can Exclude competitors.) They're embracing Android right now. Enjoy your hug, Google. They're preparing to extend the appendage(s) they use to fuck-over all of their competitors. (Rule 34'd!)

    Make no mistake, the extension is going on right now. Linux isn't getting .Net Core because Microsoft wants Linux servers to run ASP.Net sites. That's laughable. No, Linux is getting .Net Core so Android can have a compatible .Net implementation, which will allow Microsoft to penetrate deep into the Android OS and plant their microseeds in it. (More rule 34 for you to have nightmares about! Enjoy!) Specifically, it brings native .Net to Android so Xamarin doesn't have to be so complex.

    If Apple decides to take the bait and include .Net Core in iOS, simply because of inertia (and there will be inertia once Android is bouncing on that appendage), then Microsoft won't even have to work very hard to dominate iOS development. That makes UWP into simply the Universal Mobile Platform. That will be very handy for developers, so it will be the Handy Universal Mobile Platform, or HUMP. (Rule 1156... that's rule 34, squared.)

  38. take away the stupid tiles then!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    take away the stupid tiles then!!!! What the hell do we need tiles for in Windows 10... so stupid.

  39. For x86 Tablets.. So What? by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

    So I get it that we are probably talking about a phone interface, but tablets are mobile too. I have a couple cheap x86 tablet running a full install of Windows 10. One with Home one with Pro. Windows 10 runs remarkably well on them. I do understand that it's a different ballgame, but I find it to be very useful.

    I had a Windows Phone a couple years ago. At first, the interface was great. But once I had installed a number of apps I found it impossible to include more than a few in the launcher before things got out of control.

    With some tweaks that I don't think would have to ruin the interface, Windows 10 on an 8inch phone sounds great. With Android apps coming to the browser... better: purchase AMIDuOS from American Megatrends.

    --
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
    1. Re:For x86 Tablets.. So What? by IMightB · · Score: 1

      Do you work on AmiDuOS? Rarely plugs get put in unless your a shill.

      Fuck You - Carls Jr.

    2. Re:For x86 Tablets.. So What? by temcat · · Score: 1

      What is the battery life on those tablets of yours?

    3. Re:For x86 Tablets.. So What? by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, scrote. There are plenty of 'tards out there living really kick-ass lives. My first wife was 'tarded. She's a pilot now.

      Now go have a Brawndo, you could use the electrolytes.

      --
      Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
    4. Re:For x86 Tablets.. So What? by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

      Good enough that I have never had to pay enough attention to give you a solid answer.

      --
      Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
  40. Open Source WM10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I, unlike most Slashdot readers/kibitzers who feel the need to take a dump on it, have actually used WM10. It's a fantastic system, much better and more reliable than Android or iOS. Microsoft should open source it. They should have done that long ago.

  41. Nokia was in trouble before Microsoft by sjbe · · Score: 1

    And managed to burn Nokia in the process (who were in a very strong position before Stephan Elop and Microsoft happened to them).

    They did screw up Nokia but Nokia was in trouble before they got into bed with Microsoft. Elop was hired BECAUSE Nokia was in trouble and they knew it. It was a bad hire of course but they did see the problem coming. Their failure was an inability to do anything about it. A lot of this was structural. Smartphones are mostly about software and Nokia was never very good at the sort of software that end users actually care about. They could build a decent piece of hardware but the user interfaces generally sucked for anything non-trivial. For a long time they operated under the misapprehension that their customers were the telecoms like AT&T and Verizon rather than IT departments and end users. Their in house operating system strategy was too fragmented and too little too late. By the time they kind of figured out how to do it right it was too late as the market had already chosen the winners (mostly Apple and Google/Samsung).

    Microsoft at one point was in the driver's seat to take over the smartphone market but they blew it. They let Apple and Google get ahead of them while they tried to cram Windows into everything. Both Apple and Google kind of started clean sheet. Microsoft's idea to have a system that was coherent and consistent no matter the device was a good idea but they took too long and flubbed the execution of it.

  42. Is anything a focus at MS? by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

    It seems all they've been doing for 10 years is releasing apps, services, and frameworks as if they were setting a dove free and then letting it live or die on its own, rebranding it if it doesn't catch on without changing anything fundamental or changing the way they support it. Also, before everything suffered from too much focus testing, and now it seems like they've abandoned any notion of soliciting input.

  43. That implies hat it was at one point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Which is as ridiculous an idea as...buying Nokia's mobile division.

  44. WTF ??!!! by CanEHdian · · Score: 1

    So we got that HORRIBLE "phone/tablet" UI in Windows 8, and still in 8.1 and 10, because of the one-platform-for-all idea (classic desktop + mobile), and now MS is dropping mobile? Does that mean we're getting Windows 11 which is basically an updated Windows 7 (driver models, CPU support, DX12, etc.) or what?

    --
    When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
  45. The grapes were sour by OneHundredAndTen · · Score: 1

    Poor MS.

  46. No new features for Windows phones by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    Both of them.

  47. Re: Microsoft: release an affordable Android phone by mSparks43 · · Score: 1

    Imho, winphone (and the iWatch) havenâ(TM)t achieved much market penetration, because they simply arenâ(TM)t available on cutting edge hardware. market share leads from the top down, and if your flagship product blows, so do all the products that follow it.

  48. "sequel" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > you could rarely count on getting a timely sequel to a handset you liked

    That's a feature, not a bug. I don't buy a phone today based on what the next model might be a few years down the road.

    Sheesh, how much *do* you like your Apple-flavored Kool-Aid?

  49. Yes, because these platforms suck to develop for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the Android front you have a nonsensical API written in Java (which Google keeps getting sued over). I assume that wasn't Google's... Intent (ooh!).
    On the other side Apple tries to lock you into XCode and Objective-C. Because most developers hate Objective-C they created Swift... but still not good enough.

    What would be awesome? An OpenSource mobile OS like what Ubuntu tried creating. Basically a laptop inside of a phone.
    As for developing for it? You would need some kind of responsive framework. Something like Cordova is so tempting. I would love to blend the lines between Web, Mobile, and Desktop. And when I have to do native... I would prefer .NET Core to be that universal language / framework. More open than Java with other significant advantages. That would be pretty darn slick.

  50. Re:What about Universal Windows Platform (UWP) app by dwpro · · Score: 1

    I think xamlstandard +.net core will bridge that gap, but I haven't heard much on the xaml piece yet.

    --
    Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
  51. So open it up!!! by tezbobobo · · Score: 1

    This should be opened up to the community then. If you're worried about shared propriety code then strip that out and let people rewrite it.

    Windows Mobile (IMO) is/was a great OS, and could easily be a competitor to Android and iOS. Microsoft could easily put a dent in the dominance of the other two platforms by simply giving their OS (which they don't care about or value) away.

    But they won't. :(

  52. Your app store was too damn expensive! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The executive boils it down to one main reason: the difficulty of getting developers to write apps."

    Well, talk to your Program Managers. I talked to at least one of them about the ridiculous cost. $99/year for iOS is too damn high. Apple can demand it because they have the market share and were FIRST TO MARKET. Microsoft never got above, what, 10%? Yet you wanted the same $99/year from developers to publish apps to your app store. Heck no! You started LONG after iOS and Android had been in the market. You needed to operate like the underdog that you were. At most, a one-time fee of $10 to publish.

    Oh, and the ridiculous phone/device lockout policy for testing applications crippled any serious software development on your mobile platform. You might want to fire whoever decided to do that because that was a major contributing factor to the failure of your platform.

  53. Re: What about Universal Windows Platform (UWP) ap by buchanmilne · · Score: 1

    "Make no mistake, the extension is going on right now. Linux isn't getting .Net Core because Microsoft wants Linux servers to run ASP.Net sites. That's laughable."

    Oh, so SQL Server 2016 for Linux is actually intended for Android? Thanks, now I won't even consider it ...

  54. Re:yeah i switched to android in 2010 for that rea by n329619 · · Score: 1

    Android for 7 years now, and it sucks. Ever use a Galaxy S7 Edge by Samsung for T-Mobile for example? When using this device, it takes the proverbial lag every time you interact with it.

    Hopefully you're not technical in android function, otherwise this post will end up being irony and sarcasm. Each app you install on your android device has a potential to slow down your device, either ram usage, background services usage, storage space, permissions, battery usage, notifications, auto updates, auto scan, auto backup, etc. Each new OS update you install will also has a potential to slow down your device, like iOS.

    You can of course manually turn off/ block app functions to ensure your device work the way it should, however here is an easier way. You can stop apps from causing lags by trying to uninstall them first, with the most recently installed app first. If you have too many apps, you can factory wipe the device back to the initial factory state. Of course, you should backup before doing any of this.

    If the factory wipe did not improve your device function, then it could be the bloatware from samsung. Try going to the installed app and look for names under samsung. If you can uninstall them, uninstall them. Otherwise, look and see if you can disable them. If you can, disable them.

    Now your device should be much more responsive.

  55. Re:What about Universal Windows Platform (UWP) app by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

    Maybe that's why Google's gone into hardware with their Pixel devices. Those devices aren't any better than the competition (though they are pretty good), but they do get around Microsoft's ability to bribe or extort OEM's into including their software - and even embedding it deeply into the system as you suggest.

    If Google can establish a safely Microsoft-free version of Android as one of the top tier OEM's, they have at least some ability to buffer against that. And if, as they seem poised to do, they start making deals to put out nice, mid-tier Android One devices - also carrying a 'pure' version of Android, they don't even have to win the market share game with their own devices. In a way, the high price of Pixels along with the promise of more or less free software and update handling for mid-tier Android One ought to preserve the dynamism of Android hardware while solidifying a standard version of the software. Even if Google were to achieve iPhone level sales (and they won't), that'd still leave a vast swath of the Android ecosystem open to competition.

    --
    Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
  56. Some data by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Can you expand a bit on how very strong Nokia's position was, the moment that iPhone went on sale?

    Here's an overly long rant by an analyst, with lots of details of what went wrong.

    I certainly don't remember things that way.

    Part of this boils down "In my tiny corner of the world, everybody flocked en masse to the Jesus Phone !" - "Yeah but not all the planet Earth follows what happens to be popular in California, and billions of people can't afford Apple overpriced iGadgets while these billions are still in need of some portable communication tools, and Nokia phones are serving them better than anything".

    After the release of iPhone Nokia was basically insanely huge everywhere except in the US (more precisely in the specific sub-market of high range smartphone in the US).
    In terms of absolute unit shipped or total revenue, that *still* put them ahead of every one else.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  57. HALLELUJAH by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

    Windows Universal was the shittiest thing I've ever had to develop in, Hypercard and 3D graphics in QBasic were so much more pleasant.